Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Women the pinnacle of creation


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 Michael Normandin

Michael Normandin

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 17 September 2011 - 12:58 AM

I was told by my priest that women were clearly the pinnacle of creation not man. This was since each day shows a higher progression of creation and that women came after man. He also backed this by saying that "Mankind was made in God's image, and women are the life bearers - the most like God as creator." My questions is this the Easter Orthodox official view?








#2 Olga

Olga

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,827 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 01:05 AM

What is beyond question is that one particular woman is indeed the pinnacle of all creation: the Mother of God.

#3 Father David Moser

Father David Moser

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 3,581 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Cleric

Posted 17 September 2011 - 02:06 AM

What is beyond question is that one particular woman is indeed the pinnacle of all creation: the Mother of God.


Complete agreement. All of the history of the human race finds its focus in the birth of the Virgin Mary. She is the most perfect of human beings - the one who is the product of centuries of guidance and direction and planning and pushing and prodding by God. She is the best human that we can possibly produce or that can even possibly exist. Until her and after her there was no one to equal her. She was the one who was prepared to be the instrument of the incarnation. She is perfect in every humanly possible way. And yet she is not perfect enough for she, like all of us, required the coming of the Messiah and the grace that He bestows upon us through the Holy Spirit in order to ascend into heaven. And being the perfect human, she was also the first to fully embrace that grace and to live with it in total communion and union with God and so she is the first one who tasted of the Resurrection and she goes before us all as our champion leader before the throne of God where she waits for us, and pulls us along after herself that we might join her there in the joy of the Lord.

Fr David Moser

#4 Olga

Olga

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,827 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 02:18 AM

St Kassiane the Hymnographer was, as a young woman, chosen to be a prospective bride to the future emperor Theophilus. To Kassiane he said: From woman came the worst in the world. (referring to the fall of Eve). Kassiane confidently answered him, saying: But also from woman came that which is best. (referring to the Virgin giving birth to God Incarnate).

#5 Antonios

Antonios

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,039 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 02:47 AM

What Father David and Olga have said above!

I guess that means that the question in the OP has been answered!! :)

#6 Antonios

Antonios

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,039 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 02:51 AM

This is why we pray:

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.


She is more honorable and more glorious than anything else in all of creation, men and angels. The most pure human borne of creation since Eve (except for the God-Man Jesus Christ), and excelling past Eve, she is now the Queen of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Edited by Antonios, 17 September 2011 - 03:07 AM.


#7 Olga

Olga

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,827 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 05:56 AM

I guess that means that the question in the OP has been answered!! :)


Umm, not quite. :-) We know and proclaim one woman as the pinnacle of creation, but we have not answered whether or not women as a whole are higher in status than men in the way the priest in the OP suggests.

#8 Rdr Daniel (R.)

Rdr Daniel (R.)

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 705 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 10:54 AM

I was told by my priest that women were clearly the pinnacle of creation not man. This was since each day shows a higher progression of creation and that women came after man. He also backed this by saying that "Mankind was made in God's image, and women are the life bearers - the most like God as creator." My questions is this the Easter Orthodox official view?

Sorry but to me this does not sound at all right. Woman came from man (that is Eve from the rib of Adam) but since then all men have come forth from woman. Now Eve was not made after Adam as from dust but as made from Adam as a companion for Adam. Men and women are to me therefore equal in the eyes of the Lord. Also women bear the child but both man and women are needed to make life. And yet it is also written 'wives be subject to your husbands'. So there is certainly nothing to suggest in any way women are in some way the pinnacle of creation but mankind itself that is both man and woman. For although the greatest of all mankind is a women in the Theotokos who said yes to God, yes to giving birth to God in the flesh. This does not apply to all women, indeed all are called to follow her example both woman and man.

In Christ.
Daniel,

#9 Timothy Mulligan

Timothy Mulligan

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 51 posts

Posted 17 September 2011 - 11:05 AM

What about Our Lord's humanity?

#10 Michael Normandin

Michael Normandin

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 17 September 2011 - 04:38 PM

Holy scripture which is right Apostolic teaching says:

"For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:22-24)

They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one. (Romans 3:12)

Also, when we do Orthodox memorials and we say: "For there is no man who lives and does not commit a sin. You only are without sin, Your righteousness is everlasting, and Your word is the Truth."

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin." (Romans 3:9)

It is clear that Holy scripture says that ALL mankind (Womankind) has sinned. Both new testament, old testament, and even orthodox prayers since they are based on scripture. I am assuming that this is not the dogma of the church just what is held by some of the people. Can some one quote me some scripture or cannon teaching that this is held by the church?

How is it that Mary lived a sinless life and no one else can live one? Dose the Church have some sort of Maryology? This is sounding like Catholicism. Mary is some sort of super human. Where is everybody pulling this from?

#11 Archimandrite Irenei

Archimandrite Irenei

    Community Moderator

  • Administrators
  • 495 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 17 September 2011 - 04:40 PM

Dear Mr Normandin,

In order to keep this thread on focus, it is better that you address your questions on the sinlessness of the Theotokos in the thread already dedicated to that: On the path to Orthodoxy: question about 'sinless' Theotokos

INXC, Fr Irenei

#12 Antonios

Antonios

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,039 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 05:06 PM

Woman came from man (that is Eve from the rib of Adam)


I have heard that the correct translation is that Eve came from Adam's 'side', not necessarily his 'rib'. Can anyone confirm this?

(sorry to derail this thread for a moment)

#13 Michael Normandin

Michael Normandin

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 17 September 2011 - 05:12 PM

Nobody has answered the question yet.

#14 Herman Blaydoe

Herman Blaydoe

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,157 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 05:21 PM

What was the question?

Does the Church say that "woman" is somehow "higher" than man? I don't believe so.

Does the Church teach that the Theotokos chose not to sin? It is not so much referred to in our hymnography but most of us choose to believe so.

Is she the ONLY one who chooses not to sin? Well we all can do so but we perhaps are not as consistent in doing so than she. We are commanded by Scripture to be PERFECT. Is this in vain? I hope not.

Herman the hopeful Pooh

Edited by Herman Blaydoe, 17 September 2011 - 08:36 PM.


#15 Brian Patrick Mitchell

Brian Patrick Mitchell

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 17 September 2011 - 07:50 PM

No, the Orthodox Church does not teach that the female sex is the pinnacle of creation, that Eve was an improvement on Adam, or that women bear more of the image of God than men. Nonsense. Sheer nonsense, Theotokos notwithstanding.

#16 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:52 PM

I have heard that the correct translation is that Eve came from Adam's 'side', not necessarily his 'rib'. Can anyone confirm this?

(sorry to derail this thread for a moment)


Both in greek and the hebrew the word used for rib is a synonym for side. And probably the better and more accurate translation.

#17 Rob Bergen

Rob Bergen

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 74 posts

Posted 10 October 2011 - 04:21 PM

In Christ there is neither male nor female. My understanding is that the Church teaches us that we are created equally in the Lord's image. He created them, male and female. The analogy of woman as being most like God as "life-bearers" is wholly incomplete, for to have borne that life, she must be impregnated by a male. So, as you see, it certainly "takes two to tango." There is no doctrine or teaching in the Church which say that women are a higher or more completely evolved man. Perhaps this has been brought up by a certain priest to deny thousands of years of patriarchy and oppression of women, but is not in any way theologically grounded. What IS theologically grounded is the fact that we are both, male and female, created in the image of God who loves us. We are his creation, and to read the first chapters of Genesis as literally as suggesting the chronology of creation suggests superiority is way off target.

#18 IoanC

IoanC

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 160 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 24 October 2011 - 12:19 PM

I was told by my priest that women were clearly the pinnacle of creation not man.


Well, this is rather a philosophical statement. It's the kind that has nothing to do with our purpose in this life -- Salvation.
Such statements will not be able to reveal spiritual/theological depths in and of themselves, unless you bring in subjects as The Theotokos; but then again, no matter how big The Theotokos is, still, She is our equal, so this kind of adoration based on title (or gender in this case), and not person-hood and relationship between persons is not exactly in The Spirit of Orthodoxy.



#19 David Lindblom

David Lindblom

    Regular Poster

  • Validating
  • PipPipPip
  • 151 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:42 PM

[indent=1]I was told by my priest that women were clearly the pinnacle of creation not man. This was since each day shows a higher progression of creation and that women came after man. He also backed this by saying that "Mankind was made in God's image, and women are the life bearers - the most like God as creator." My questions is this the Easter Orthodox official view?


I would say that neither represent the pinnacle of God's creation based on their gender. I think it is mankind that is the pinnacle of creation. It could also be argued that Adam was made by God from the basic elements while Eve was taken from Adam. Also, while it is true that women are the life bearers and that is immeasurably important they can't do it w/o man...we're both needed.

Edited by Fr Raphael Vereshack, 30 November 2011 - 09:43 PM.
deleted the uneeded quote tags


#20 Michael Stickles

Michael Stickles

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 1,438 posts

Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:20 PM

I think it is mankind that is the pinnacle of creation.


I have seen this statement or something similar in several Orthodox sources. If there is an official Orthodox position regarding the "pinnacle of creation", that's probably it. While I have seen the Theotokos also referred to as the pinnacle of creation, you could as easily render that as mankind is the pinnacle of creation, and the Theotokos the pinnacle of created mankind.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users