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Secularism in the Church


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#21 James Lawrence

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 01:11 AM

To reply to Kosta, the selfsame freedom you view as demonic is precisely what allows you be Orthodox in America. There is a certain group of Protestant Evangelicals who feel that once they get power any form of Christianity other than theirs is of satan and must be combatted unto death. That is what that Amendment is there to protect us against.

#22 Paul Cowan

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 05:08 AM

The right of freedom of religion in the US Constitution is demonic in my opinion. This has lead to missionaries being sent all over the world to proselytise with the help of the State Department. At the same time if 10,000 muslim missionaries landed in Tennessee there would be hell.
The United States desperately needs an official religion so we can know on what principles it stands on.


If immigrants don't like this country, they need to go back where they came from. Why do you feel it necessary to try to make this place like the place you left? Kinda defeats the purpose of coming here doesn't it? I do not support missionaries going into Orthodox countries to try to sway our people away from the True faith, but I know many missionaries that gave up their positions and joined the Orthodox faith once they were there. My priest is one such ex-missionary. OH, the first ammendment has NOT lead to missionaries being sent all over the world. That was done by each denomination's individual initiative.

I can't remember the last or first time you said anything positive about the country you live in Kosta. Why is that?
BTW: There are already 60,000 muslim missionaries in Tennessee. The US was formed on "Christian" principles albeit not Orthodox principles. It is the liberals over the years that have twisted and maneuvered and altered our state of affairs to be more like Europe (the place they came from) and not the land of freedom which many immigrants actually seek out when they come here. We are not Europe or Asia or any other third world country. We USED to have standards to come here. Now our borders are wide open except for our own people. We USED to be a beacon on the hill for those looking for opportunities. Now we outsource everything to Singapore. We USED to be the best the world had ever seen. Now we have people who come here and deliberately tear down our fabric of existence from the inside out.

#23 Paul Cowan

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 05:23 AM

To reply to Kosta, the selfsame freedom you view as demonic is precisely what allows you be Orthodox in America. There is a certain group of Protestant Evangelicals who feel that once they get power any form of Christianity other than theirs is of satan and must be combatted unto death. That is what that Amendment is there to protect us against.


Sorry James, you are wrong also. Here is what it says.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


It does not protect us FROM any religion. It prohibits the government from forcing a specific religion on the people or preventing them from practising their religion whatever that may be. All this separation of church and State nonsence is ridiculous since the gonvernment is not condoning any one religion over another. If this were the case, why do they still have prayer and a chaplain in the House of Representatives?

boy have we really gotten off topic here.

#24 Kosta

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 06:34 AM

You've misunderstood my point, im saying that the United States should have an official religion possibly Baptist or whatever, so all these lawsuits and splintering into more sects can be curtailed. When the state department compiles blacklists of countries because they forbid freedom of religion, then i have a problem with it. Not every country shares 'western values' nor the 1st ammendment.

Its really irrelevant that I'm free to be Orthodox here, if it were illegal my parents simply would not have emigrated here. Likewise if this country had a high percentage of muslims from the beginning my parents still would have never of came here. When they did come here they knew the christianity espoused was not Orthodox and had no problem with it, but they loved the protestant concept of capitalism. The problem is this ammendment has morphed into something it never was.

#25 Paul Cowan

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 02:03 PM

You've misunderstood my point, im saying that the United States should have an official religion possibly Baptist or whatever, so all these lawsuits and splintering into more sects can be curtailed. .... The problem is this ammendment has morphed into something it never was.


It can never happen. If any one group is chosen the other 20,000 will scream bloody murder.

The ammendment hasn't changed a single word. We though have been programmed by the Left to think in other terms than it was intended and most cases flat out disregard what it says. Why was prayer taken out of schools? Why was prayer at The Pole done away with? The vast majority of legal issues with prayer is from athiests who if theywould just stay away from prayers they would not be subjected to them. Why is the minority always screaming the loudest and getting away with running this country?

I know this now crossed the line of forum rules and I will not post on this topic again.

#26 Ryan

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 03:58 AM

If immigrants don't like this country, they need to go back where they came from.


Really? I'd rather that they stuck around and help make it better.

#27 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 05:50 PM

It can never happen. If any one group is chosen the other 20,000 will scream bloody murder.


Unless enough of those other groups are brought in as a coalition. Then they can use their majority power to crush the rest. At one time, Protestant religious instruction was mandatory in many public school systems in the USA. There were riots over this in Massachussetts. It was one of the major problems the Irish had in the USA almost up until they were accepted as "White" and "American" during the US Civil War. (See also "Paddy and the Republic" and "How the Irish Became White"--two excellent books.)

#28 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 05:52 PM

If immigrants don't like this country, they need to go back where they came from. Why do you feel it necessary to try to make this place like the place you left?


Yeah! How DARE those Greeks, Russians, etc. set up their FOREIGN churches, with all their Orthodox rituals and doctrines!?!?!?!? They need to pack up their FOREIGN Orthodox Church and get out of the USA. The USA should be left to proper White, Anglo-Saxon Protestantism (okay, we can tolerate some Germans--but not too many).

#29 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 07:55 PM

Paul said:

If immigrants don't like this country, they need to go back where they came from.

Perhaps this is the prayer of the native Americans.

#30 Vincent M.

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:59 PM

Democracy isn't a positive thing. It's what led Nietzsche to say "God is dead, and we have killed him." The French put this into full effect when they beheaded their King in the revolution.

America is not a "Beacon on the hill," and to apply such imagery and language to it over the Church is - at the very least - heterodox.

#31 Paul Cowan

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:44 PM

My great grandmother was full blood Choctaw. How she got entangled with a Scot around the time of the Trail of Tears, I have no idea though when the US needed support the Choctaw were treated as equals. When it didn't they were sent packing. I spent time in Oklahoma visiting the reservation as a kid and more recently lived near the reservation in Choctaw Mississippi.

I stand by my comment. Whether it was true in 1700 or true in 2012. If a person is leaving their home country for reasons known to them, do not make the country being immigrated TO into that which was emigrated FROM. Otherwise just stay in the original country and fix your own problems. Don't bring them to the new country so those citizens now have to deal with their own problems and now another country's problems too. People born in a country should take pride in their country and make it the best country in the world. There will be stumbles of course along the way as new generations take the majority, but the US will fix our biggest stumble on November 13, 2012.

I am looking at my back yard. It is the prettiest green I have seen in years. I just wish I had a single blade of grass back there. It's all weeds. The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. Otherness makes things look much more attractive than they are. What was this thread about again?

Paul

#32 Paul Cowan

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:48 PM

America is not a "Beacon on the hill,"


yes we are. I don't see people risking their lives to go to Cuba or Turkey or Cairo or Iran. Be proud of your country or fix it. Just don't allow others to fix it for us!

#33 Vincent M.

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:11 PM

yes we are. I don't see people risking their lives to go to Cuba or Turkey or Cairo or Iran. Be proud of your country or fix it. Just don't allow others to fix it for us!


I'm embarrassed to see Orthodox Christians talk in such a way and believe this lie.

Look beneath the surface about this country's past, and you won't be so proud. We are a deplorable and anti-Christian nation run by a small group of evil but powerful people.

#34 Vincent M.

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:13 PM

yes we are. I don't see people risking their lives to go to Cuba or Turkey or Cairo or Iran. Be proud of your country or fix it. Just don't allow others to fix it for us!


The city on a hill is the Church. To believe otherwise is heretical.

#35 Father David Moser

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:34 PM

Just a reminder that this forum is not about social issues or about politics, but about the Orthodox Church. Please lets not let this thread drift out of focus and out of the forum.

Fr David Moser

#36 Kosta

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 04:46 AM

I'm embarrassed to see Orthodox Christians talk in such a way and believe this lie.

Look beneath the surface about this country's past, and you won't be so proud. We are a deplorable and anti-Christian nation run by a small group of evil but powerful people.


And which nation doesnt have her own skeletons in the closet? The only difference is most nations arent guilt ridden of their past sins. Do you really think Turks stay awake at night lamenting their treatment of the indiginous Greeks and Armenians? Do you think the Japanese have a gut wrenching collective guilt for their treatment of the Chinese during WW2? Do you think Greeks stay up and worry that gypsies may be discriminated against? Do you think Greeks will abandon viewing Alexander the Great as a national hero because he beheaded the healthy young males in many of the regions he conquered? You think Palestinian muslims care that they are occupying roman-byzantine christian land?

#37 Father David Moser

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 04:52 AM

It seems as though we can't refrain from social/political posting on this topic which is outside the scope of the forum. As a result it is necessary to close this thread for the time being.

Fr David Moser




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