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The great canon of St Andrew of Crete in the first week of lent


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#1 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:26 AM

Members may find useful the material at the following link:

http://www.dowama.or...dGreatCanon.pdf

#2 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:06 PM

And this might be found enjoyable:



#3 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:09 PM

The traditional music is here:

http://kliros.org/no...non/irmmatf.pdf

Avoid the stuff by Bortnyansky arr. Ledkovsky which is on the ROCOR Chicago diocese web site.

#4 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 02:27 AM

The link below provides the Greek text of the Great Canon with a translation in modern Greek:

http://www.monipetraki.gr/kanon.html

#5 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:31 AM

Does anyone know why the first irmos has 'God of my Father'? One would expect 'God of my Fathers' as it is in the seventh irmos. The modern Greek translation above has the latter.

#6 Olga

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 01:53 PM

I have checked both the Greek and Slavonic versions of the first and seventh irmosi/eirmi. In both cases, the first has "God of my father", the seventh "God of my fathers".

Ode 1:

Βοηθὸς καὶ σκεπαστής, ἐγένετό μοι εἰς σωτηρίαν, οὗτός μου Θεός, καὶ δοξάσω αὐτόν, Θεὸς τοῦ Πατρός μου, καὶ ὑψώσω αὐτόν· ἐνδόξως γὰρ δεδόξασται.

Помощник и Покровитель бысть мне во спасение, Сей мой Бог, и прославлю Его, Бог Отца моего, и вознесу Его: славно бо прославися.

Ode 7:

Ἡμάρτομεν, ἠνομήσαμεν, ἠδικήσαμεν ἐνώπιόν σου, οὐδὲ συνετηρήσαμεν, οὐδὲ ἐποιήσαμεν, καθὼς ἐνετείλω ἡμῖν. Ἀλλὰ μὴ παραδῴης ἡμᾶς εἰς τέλος, ὁ τῶν Πατέρων Θεός.

Согрешихом, беззаконновахом, неправдовахом пред Тобою, ниже соблюдохом, ниже сотворихом, якоже заповедал еси нам; но не предаждь нас до конца, отцев Боже.

#7 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:14 PM

Thanks, Olga. Do we know the reason for the difference? 'God of my Fathers' is common in prayers but this is the only place I've seen 'God of my father' (small 'f' presumably).

#8 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 03:37 PM

The reason for the wording is because this is what we find in the 1st Biblical Ode: Exodus 15: 1-19; vs 2: "Helper and defender He has become to me for deliverance; this is my God, and I will glorify Him; my father's God and I will glorify Him." Remember that all irmosi are a later development of (and interpretation of) the biblical Ode which was the original core of the canon. Only later on were the irmosi and tropars of the feast developed and then inserted antiphonally into the biblical ode (this is what we do during Great lent); and then the further step was to drop the biblical ode entirely and read only the irmos and tropars. This is what is nowadays most commonly done and what is referred to as the canon- just irmos and tropars.

In Christ
Fr Raphael

#9 Sbdn. Peter Simko

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 04:09 PM

Speaking of, I have a packet put together to read through the Great Compline and Great Canon next week; since I am traveling and will probably be in my hotel quite a bit in the evenings, I was hoping to include the biblical odes in full. My question however, is how exactly to do this. My understanding is that the first Irmos is dropped, the troparia and Glory/Both are weaved between the verses as per normal, and the ending Irmos may be used after the Theotokion. Is this accurate?

Also, the Second Ode is used during Lent, but every Psalter I have checked notes that it is still only sung in completion on Tuesdays. For the Great Canon, should the troparia and Glory/Both be weaved in similarly to the other Odes, or would the reading be a totally different order? Is it really discluded on Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday, even if the Troparia for the Ode are included?

Finally, do the refrains get inserted between verses in each Ode before getting to the set of troparia, or are they dropped when the full Odes are read? Any help would be much appreciated.

#10 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 05:36 PM

The Great Canon is never specified to be read with biblical odes. I assume that this is because this canon was originally composed on its own as devotional, and perhaps was not even specific to Great Lent when it was composed (although I could be wrong on that).

When the biblical canticles are used, (which actually they are supposed to be on weekday Matins during Great Lent), then the 2nd biblical Ode is read through entirely. Then follows the first irmos, then Glory to Thee our God, glory to Thee...and first tropar of canon, then Glory to Thee our God, glory to Thee ..before next tropars of canon; then O most holy Theotokos save us...before the first theotokion; then Glory to Thee our God, glory to Thee before next tropars; Glory..before the tropar to the Trinity; Both now & ever... theotokion; Glory to Thee our God, glory to Thee...last tropar; then sing the irmos of the 2nd canon of this ode (ie the irmos you skipped over after the first theotokion). This is considered to be the katavasia.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

#11 Sbdn. Peter Simko

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:04 PM

Thank you for your answers, Father. If I understand you correctly, the Second Ode is then unique in not having troparia/&c. in between the verses, while the other eight Odes do have this. This makes sense, since the Psalters have markings for how far to go in each Ode before the verses--except for the Second Ode.

#12 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 09:17 PM

If I understand you correctly, the Second Ode is then unique in not having troparia/&c. in between the verses, while the other eight Odes do have this.


Yes- that's it.

#13 Marie+Duquette

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:01 AM

The above is useful, Rdr Andreas Moran.
But, I do wonder if any member of Monachos knows where a complete musical rendition of the Canon of St. Anthony of Crete can be found on the interned. I've found "minute" or so renditions, but nothing complete. This would be so helpful for home-bound persons. Listening and participating in the listening can be very moving for repentence. While reading/praying the Service as taken in the Lenten Triodion, can be tedious when done alone. Thank you

#14 Father David Moser

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:23 AM

The above is useful, Rdr Andreas Moran.
But, I do wonder if any member of Monachos knows where a complete musical rendition of the Canon of St. Anthony of Crete can be found on the interned. I've found "minute" or so renditions, but nothing complete. This would be so helpful for home-bound persons. Listening and participating in the listening can be very moving for repentence. While reading/praying the Service as taken in the Lenten Triodion, can be tedious when done alone. Thank you


The canon is not sung - it is chanted. I don't imagine that you could find a "complete musical rendition". Also, the Great Canon is not done alone, but always in the context of one of the regular services (Great Compline during the first week of Lent and Matins during the 5th week) and so it would be unusual to find a recording just of the canon.

Fr David Moser

#15 Michael Du.

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:45 AM

Hi,

I have read some of the Great Canon of St. Andrew and am planning to attend some of the services. Although I find the prayers and service very powerful and moving and objectively agree with most of the words, I don't necessarily feel I can say the words sincerely. That is, my repentance (or at least the subjective experience of it) is not as deep or contrite, and I then feel I am just saying words which I can't really relate to. Do I continue to pray the prayer, even though it doesn't always feel like I am repenting? Thanks in advance for your answers.

#16 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:11 AM

If you feel your repentance is not deep or contrite, then repent of that. That is what I was told to do by Archimandrite Zacharias. Could it be better to think that our repentance is sufficient? That would be delusion. And we do indeed continue to pray the prayer since it is not for us to assess the value of our prayers.

#17 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:21 AM

I cannot be sure about Greek versions but there is a complete 5-CD set of the whole service of Great Compline with the Great Canon for the first four days of the first week of Great Lent produced by the Moscow Podvorie of Holy Trinity St Sergius Lavra. It is, of course, in Church Slavonic. A home-bound person could listen and follow the text in their preferred language. Last evening, our priest and I did this service - it took about 1 hour 45 minutes.

#18 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:51 AM

That is exactly WHY we say the prayers, to convict our hearts and to see that our repentance is not as sincere as it should be. We look at the standard to help us become what we need to be, to show us how far we have to go, not to "prove" that we are there already. If you get to a point where you "feel" like you are "contrite" then it is time to ask forgiveness for your lack of humility. Remember it is not US who accomplish this, because apart from Christ we can do nothing.

#19 Dusja

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:33 PM

You'll find the Great Canon on Youtube, too, here in Slavonic: from 2011.

#20 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:00 PM

Another important point is that while listening to the hymnography we put ourselves into the words that we hear. We emerge ourselves into them and they become our words. Of course we are likely not as genuine as St Andrew of Crete. But by praying with his words we have the way forward indicated to us. We begin to pray with the words of the entire Church.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael




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