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Lenten weekday matins music questions


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#1 James A. Latimer

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:47 AM

I'm looking for some help with mostly musical issues, mostly for Lenten services, specifically Lenten Matins. Here are some questions:

Edit: forgot to mention, I am interested if anyone has any sheet music for any of this stuff, preferably Obikhod/ROCOR style stuff.

1.) When you read the kathisma during Vespers, does the reader simply read the glory..., alleluia..., etc. between the stases, or is some of that sung by the choir as at the reading of the kathismata during Matins.

2.) at Matins, the Hymns to the Trinity in the tone of the week: my books say the priest intones the first part of the first hymn, and then the choir sings the ending (which varies day to day).
** *A.) Which tone 4 melody are these sung to?
** *B.) does the choir sing the other two hymns or just that first ending part?

3.) when you have sessional hymns after the kathismata, what melody are the sessional hymns sung in? Is it sticheron melody?
3a.) the stichoi between the sessional hymns? What's the melody? Or it it just intoned by the reader?

4.) the Canon:the Biblical Ode is to sung in the tone of the canon from the menaion: but to what type of melody would one sing the Biblical Ode?
4a.) then it says sing the irmos and the troparia of the canon between the verses of the ode: verse, troparion; verse, troparion; and so forth: what does this sound like? Which melody, etc.? Are the troparia of a canon sung in irmos melody? What melody is the refrain for a canon (between the troparia), such as 'Glory to thee, O Lord, glory to thee', sung to?
4b.) when you get to the canon from the triodion, it is a different tone: would the verses (of the biblical ode) and the troparia (of the canon) now be sung in this tone?

#2 Anthony Stokes

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:16 AM

I'm looking for some help with mostly musical issues, mostly for Lenten services, specifically Lenten Matins. Here are some questions:

1.) When you read the kathisma during Vespers, does the reader simply read the glory..., alleluia..., etc. between the stases, or is some of that sung by the choir as at the reading of the kathismata during Matins.


Should be the same as Matins. Choir sings "now and ever...alleluia." Little litany. Rdr. starts right in.

2.) at Matins, the Hymns to the Trinity in the tone of the week: my books say the priest intones the first part of the first hymn, and then the choir sings the ending (which varies day to day).
** *A.) Which tone 4 melody are these sung to?
** *B.) does the choir sing the other two hymns or just that first ending part?


It's been a while, but I've always just seen the choir sing these. Stichera tones.

3.) when you have sessional hymns after the kathismata, what melody are the sessional hymns sung in? Is it sticheron melody?
3a.) the stichoi between the sessional hymns? What's the melody? Or it it just intoned by the reader?


Stichera tones. Stichoi are read by the reader.

4.) the Canon:the Biblical Ode is to sung in the tone of the canon from the menaion: but to what type of melody would one sing the Biblical Ode?


Canon tone. We usually do it in Tone 4, since it is the simplest.

4a.) then it says sing the irmos and the troparia of the canon between the verses of the ode: verse, troparion; verse, troparion; and so forth: what does this sound like? Which melody, etc.? Are the troparia of a canon sung in irmos melody? What melody is the refrain for a canon (between the troparia), such as 'Glory to thee, O Lord, glory to thee', sung to?
4b.) when you get to the canon from the triodion, it is a different tone: would the verses (of the biblical ode) and the troparia (of the canon) now be sung in this tone?


You can sing all of the troparia, but very often they are just read. The irmos is in the canon tone. The refrains are typically based on the final measure of the irmos. I wouldn't worry about changing the tones of the refrains. We just use the tone of the first irmos for all refrains.

Hope that helps a little.

Sbdn. Anthony

#3 James A. Latimer

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:50 PM

In terms of the canon tone, since we normally are just singing the irmos of the canon, which is usually quite short, I'm having trouble imagining exactly how a longer text is sung in this tone melody. Do you just sing the different strophes again and again, like you do for stichera with their melodies, until you get to the last verse and then sing the final strophe?
For a melody with two strophes and a final strophe: ABAB...C

Edited by Fr Raphael Vereshack, 15 February 2012 - 06:03 PM.


#4 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:02 PM

In terms of the canon tone, since we normally are just singing the irmos of the canon, which is usually quite short, I'm having trouble imagining exactly how a longer text is sung in this tone melody. Do you just sing the different strophes again and again, like you do for stichera with their melodies, until you get to the last verse and then sing the final strophe?
For a melody with two strophes and a final strophe: ABAB...C


Yes, for example 'Having Crossed the Water as Dry Land' (Tone 8); but Tone 4 goes in a triplet 'I will Open My Mouth'.

In my experience usually only the first Irmos and at the end of the Ode, the katavasia are sung. The rest of the canon in between (skipping irmosi in between) is read.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

#5 James A. Latimer

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:05 PM

For Ode 3 tomorrow (Wednesday), we have Menaion on 6, Triodion on 8, but from what I can tell you don't say the irmos first, but at the end as katavasia:

So would I say
Verse of biblical ode (V)
Troparion 1
V
Troparion 1
V
Troparion 2
V
Troparion 3
V
Theotokion
V
First troparion of triodion, etc.

Or do I repeat the second troparion on the menaion twice as well as the first?

?

#6 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:26 PM

I can't find specific directions for tomorrow's canon. But the basic directions in the Instruction for Divine Services (2012), which says to do like the canon as on Monday in the 1st Week of the Fast, implies that you have it correctly above in your first description.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

#7 James A. Latimer

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:18 AM

So we'd say the first 5 verses of the third ode, up to and including "The bow of the mighty..."; then the first troparion from the menaion; and so on alternating, until we get to the Theotokion, which would be followed by the verse, "He granteth his prayer...", which would be followed by the first troparion of the triodion, and so on: is that correct?

#8 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:35 AM

I don't have my books handy to work it all out. But if you count backwards from the last Theotokion of the second Triod canon, then this will take you to where you should stop for the first menaion tropar. Work it out beforehand as you would at Lord I Have Cried with the actual material you have and it can't go wrong. It's good to chart this out the evening or day before, so that things go smoothly when you get to the service. Remember that the principle itself is actually very simple- it's antiphonal.


In Christ
-Fr Raphael

#9 Archimandrite Irenei

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:55 AM

For the odes where there are two odes/canticles provided in the Triodion (which vary day to day throughout the week), the order is generally:

- The biblical ode, from its beginning up until the verse that leaves a number of remaining verses equal to the total number of troparia of the three canons, less the irmos and katavasia;

- The irmos of the canon of the saint of the day from the menaion (sung), followed by the next verse of the biblical ode;

- The six troparia of the canon (figuring in its doxasticon) of the saint from the menaion (read), each interspersed with subsequent verses of the biblical ode (if there are only five troparia of the canon, which is often the case, the final before the doxasticon is repeated, to make up the total number of six);

- The first troparion of the first canon from the Triodion (*not* the irmos, which is skipped), followed by the subsequent verse of the biblical ode; then the subsequent troparia of the canon, each interspersed with verses of the ode;

- The first troparion of the second canon from the Triodion (not the irmos, which is skipped), followed by the subsequent verse of the biblical ode; then the subsequent troparia of the canon, similarly interspersed with verses from the ode. Before the second-to-last troparion (where we will now be out of verses of the ode), 'Glory be..', then the tropar; then 'Both now...' and the doxasticon.

- The irmos of the second canon from the Triodion is sung as the katavasia.

In practice this looks like this:

- Biblical ode chanted verse by verse until the appropriate place
- Irmos from menaion (sung)
- Ode verse
- Menaion canon tropar 1 (read)
- Ode verse
- Menaion canon tropar 2
- Ode verse
- Menaion canon tropar 3
- Ode verse
- Menaion canon tropar 4
- Ode verse
- Menaion canon tropar 5
- Ode verse
- Menaion canon tropar 6 (doxasticon)
- Ode verse
- Triodion canon 1, tropar 1 (not irmos)
- Ode verse
- Triodion canon 1, tropar 2
- Ode verse
- Triodion canon 1, tropar 3
- Ode verse
- Triodion canon 1, tropar 4 (doxasticon)
- Ode verse
- Triodion canon 2, tropar 1 (not irmos)
- Ode verse
- Triodion canon 2, tropar 2
- Glory be...
- Triodion canon 2, tropar 3
- Both now and ever...
- Triodion canon 2, tropar 4 (doxasticon)
- Irmos of Triodion canon 2, as katavasia (sung)

#10 James A. Latimer

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:45 PM

On Saturday, you use the canon of the saint of the temple: our parish is dedicated to St. Nicholas: in the Menaion there are two canons for St. Nicholas (plus a canon of the Theotokos). Which one should we use?

#11 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:58 PM

I'd say that you'd use the first canon, since only 4 tropars are called for to the patronal saint of the temple.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

#12 James A. Latimer

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:25 PM

The first canon has two troparia and a Theotokion per ode (excluding irmos). The second canon has 3 troparia and a Theotokion per ode (excluding irmos and Triadicon).

So you would use the first canon, repeating one troparion to make 4? Or it seems one could use the second canon, using the three troparia and the Theotokion and excluding the Triadicon.

Is there a rule for determining which of the two should be used?

Or should perhaps both be used in a manner analogous to a double service?

Thank you for all your patience and help!




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