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On the idea of self-ownership


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#21 Nicholas F.

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:08 PM

Please prove that presidents do not have authority granted by God. Show the evidence.


Why would I do that if I don't believe that? My argument is not that the government doesn't have authority granted by God. My argument is about whether or not the way in which that power is used is the best way it can be used/being used the way it should be used. This is one of the reasons I reject anarchism, the moment you start questioning the validity of authority you run into problems with Scripture and with the Saints. I don't see making a case against the way that authority is used as questioning that authority itself.

#22 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:25 PM

And all their predecessors and heirs, too? Could you show me where it states in Scripture or patristic writing that elected officials are disqualified from being saints?


The first question is not relevant, but, of course, sainthood is not hereditary. As to the second question, this does not flow from my post, but is there an example of an elected official - I assume you mean head of state - who is a saint of the Orthodox church?

#23 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:28 PM

The first question is not relevant, but, of course, sainthood is not hereditary. As to the second question, this does not flow from my post, but is there an example of an elected official - I assume you mean head of state - who is a saint of the Orthodox church?


I can think of none, but aside from the Romanov martyrs, how many monarchs from 1787 to the present day have been recognized as Saints? I'd say the record of monarchy vs elected governments in the last few centuries is pretty much identical.

#24 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:30 PM

How many of the people who pine for a "Christian" monarchy have ever actually lived under the sort of untrammeled by popular vote monarchy that is being nostalgized here?

#25 Owen Jones

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

I try to resist assigning motives behind certain ideas, Bryan, although sometimes the temptation is just overwhelming. Likewise, I try to avoid getting defensive when people assign all kinds of motives behind what I believe, and sometimes it is equally impossible to resist. I have been accused by liberals of being a bigot, racist, fascist and nazi so many times that I can't count.

In this particular case, Bryan, I'm not sure how helpful it is to assume that someone who wishes to make a defense of Christian monarchy is just being nostalgic for some Golden Age of history. I think there is a case to be made apart from romantic nostalgia. But it has to be an organic argument.

#26 Owen Jones

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:44 PM

As Madison said, absent a virtuous people, a constitution is nothing but a paper barricade against tyranny.

I personally do not believe in a rights based political system. While any political theory can be distorted to its extreme and abused, and likely will be, I prefer a political culture that is based on virtue, mutual loyalties and obligations. And that is not something you can impose. It has to be an organic thing. This would apply to a political theory based on 'libertarian" objectives. Although the case can be made that by eliminated government, you in a sense force people to become more virtuous. Chicken or the egg I suppose.

#27 Steve Roche

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:29 PM

Many monarchies cloaked themselves in a veneer of Christianity, but none of them really were Christian in their governance. All were really just petty tyrannies that used and abused the Church in order to perpetuate further oppression.


Well said, Brian, I would agree with you. That does not mean to say, as Andreas mentioned, that certain emperors (or presidents) were not saints. I believe many of them were; but also... that their position of power in government is at spiritual odds with the kingdom of God. This was true of David’s kingdom as well as the Eastern and Western Monarchies of the Roman Empire. They all ended up heretical. Christ’s Kingdom is the only acceptable kingdom to govern mankind. This is the gospel, or good news... declaring God's Kingdom! This is the earthly struggle that we contend with as saints… we either stand for the Kingdom of God, which is light, or we stand for the Kingdoms of man, which are dark. We cannot have two masters.

Such compromises always lead Christians into religious institutions that are sanctioned by earthly governments. All a religion then has to stand on is their own traditions. They sentimentally look back at the hay-day when the effects of government influence were the least noticeable. This is the age of the fathers that became politically aligned after Nicene. All Christians prior to this age were not aligned politically. Justin Martyr’s apology's Against the Roman Senate are examples of how far the church had drifted away from its roots when compared to Augustine’s City of God. The greatest form of government control came through government endorsement.

When the church and beast go hand in hand on a political journey together; the church inevitably takes the ride of heresy with the beast. I think you are correct in your over-view, Brian. Thanks

Steve




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