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Theotokions on "Lord I have cried"


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#1 sr ryse

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:18 AM

I would like clear up my understanding of what theotokian should be sung "Lord I have Cried" (Not during Triodion and Penecostarion seasons). On Sunday (Saturday evening) we sing the dogmatik theotokion found in the Sunday Octoechos of the week's tone (Always or are there exceptions like for a feast of the Lord?). But what should be sung on Saturday and weekdays? This is my idea, but it is inconsistent with what I read in some internet sources:
Sunday - Dogmatik Theotokion from Octoechos in the tone of the week
Monday - Theotokion from the Minaion (The Octoechos also offers a theotokion and stavrotheotokion for all the weekdays. Why?)
Tuesday - Stavrotheotokion from Minaion in tone of the Doxasticon
Wednesday - Theotokion from the Minaion
Thursday - Theotokion from the Minaion
Friday - Stavrotheotokion from Minaion in tone of the Doxasticon
Saturday - Dogmatik Theotokion from Octoechos in the tone of the week (the one used on Sunday).- why would the Octoechos have a special Theotokion for Saturday?

If anyone could help clear this up, I'd be very grateful. As you can see I have a very vague understanding.
Thanks.

#2 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 03:45 PM

Dear Peter,
Christ is Risen,

As far as I know, in general, what you have wrote is pretty much the order,

On Sunday, that is Saturday evening, the Dogmatikon is sung to the tone of that week i.e. the tone to be sung at the liturgy in the morning.

Monday,Tuesday and Thursday (i.e. Sunday, Monday and Wednesday, evenings) the normal Theotokion is sung from the Menaion if there be one, if there be not then from the Octoechos.

Wednesday and Friday (i.e. Tuesday and Thursday evenings) the Stavrotheotokion is sung from the Menaion should there be one, or more likely from the Octoechos.

On Saturday (i.e. Friday evening) the Dogmatikon in the tone of the week (i.e. the tone sung at last Sunday's liturgy) is sung which is the same one which was sung the previous Sunday Vespers (i.e. Saturday evening).

As far as I know the Octoechos gives what should be sung each evening, but a lot of feast's in the Menaion (but by no means all) have there own a Theotokion (and sometimes a Stavrotheotokion) which normally matches the tone of the service to the feast and is done instead of that from the Octoechos.

Should a feast fall on a Saturday or Sunday the Dogmatikon from the Octoechos is done not the Theotokion from the Menaion.

There are exceptions for the feasts of the Lord, the Theotokos and some high ranking Saint's days in which case follow exactly what it says to do in the Menaion for that feast day, if it is not clear ask someone you know or on here what is to be done that day.

That is to the best of my knowledge, I am sure some better informed members will clear up anything should it need to be.

In the Risen Christ.
Daniel,

#3 sr ryse

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 07:57 PM

Indeed He is risen, Daniel!

Thank you so much! This cleared up things quite a bit. Also: If it is a doxology rank or higher feast then is the dogmatik theotokion (the one sung on Saturday evening) used for all the week days, but sung in the tone of the glory (I found this information on the OCA official site, there are some inconsistencies and mistakes that make it hard to understand though)? And I've also never seen a theotokion not given for a daily vespers of any saint (looking at an online slavonic menaion http://www.st-sergiu.../services6.html) not that I looked through all the days, but how often are the theotokions given in the menaion used?

Gratefully,
Peter

#4 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:42 PM

Dear Peter,

If it is a doxology rank or higher feast then is the dogmatik theotokion (the one sung on Saturday evening) used for all the week days, but sung in the tone of the glory

I am not sure about that, if no one should get back to you between now and Sunday I'll try to ask our parish liturgical expert monk on Sunday after the liturgy, and post you what he says.

I've also never seen a theotokion not given for a daily vespers of any saint (looking at an online slavonic menaion http://www.st-sergiu.../services6.html) not that I looked through all the days, but how often are the theotokions given in the menaion used?

I use the same site but the English version [http://www.st-sergiu...services8.html] (which may not have all things translated) and I think I remember not seeing them from time to time, although thinking about it, it may have just being due to the month normally falling in the Triodion or Pentecostarion period on the old calendar. As far as I know the Theotokion from the Menaion is normally used rather then that from the Octoechos, at least that is my practice at home, but I am not one hundred percent sure.

In the Risen Christ.
Daniel,

#5 Dcn Alexander Haig

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:26 AM

Dear all

Christ is risen!

As I understand, the dogmatikon from the paraklitiki (octoechos) as sung on weekdays. If the menaion gives a doxastikon, sing "Glory ..." then from the menaion, "Both now ..." followed by the dogmatikon in the same tone as the doxastikon. The exception is Saturday (Friday evening) which can be seen as an apodosis of the Sunday.

In Xp
Rdr Alexander

#6 sr ryse

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:45 AM

I went to Pravoslavie.ru, and they have an even more accessible menaion (than the one I previously mentioned). You just go to the day in the calendar and it gives you the text for that particular service from the menaion, but what was convenient for me is that you could see the rank of the feast next to the saint's name. Anyway, I also accidentally found this page (in Russian) http://krotov.info/l...tm#_Toc70306661 and it has an exhaustive explanation on the use of theotokions. Also it confirms that the daily theotokions are used for only one or two lesser saints and 6 stichera saints. Thank you for your contributions!




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