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Taking multiple names at tonsure


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#1 Guest_Augustine Martin

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:18 PM

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Χαιρετε, ω φιλοι και γεροντες! Ιησους γαρ Χριστος εξ θανατου ημας λελυκεν!

In tonsure, you take a new name. This is considered a second baptism. However, often one will take a new name each time he is tonsured or made bishop. Doesn't taking multiple new names cheapen the sacrament? I plan on only taking a new name once, even if I have to stay at Rassaphore.

For the record, I am a new convert who plans on joining a monastery in a year.

#2 Father David Moser

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:22 PM

There seems to be a mistaken notion here that one "takes" a name. This is not the case at all, especially in monastic tonsure but also even in baptism. A name is not "taken" but is "given". According to the typicon, the priest gives the name to the child in baptism. It is highly recommended, even a point of regulation, that the priest conform to the desires of the parent (or in the case of an adult convert with the desire of the one being baptised) however in the end it is the priest as the minister of the sacrament who gives the name. In monastic life, even more, a name is not "taken" by the postulant, but rather at tonsure a name is "given" by the one giving the tonsure. From what I understand, it is a common practice for the one desiring monastic tonsure to offer a list of names to his spiritual father that he would like to be given, however, the one tonsuring need not adhere even to that suggestion, but gives the name that is appropriate. The postulant has really no choice. This makes sense in that monastic life is all about quelling one's own desires and submitting one's will to that of another (his spiritual father, the abbot and ultimately Christ) thus it is the height of foolishness for a monastic to speak about what he will and will not do.

Fr David

#3 Guest_Augustine Martin

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:55 AM

That doesn't answer the question at all.

If you are given a name at Rassaphore, you have been baptized a second time. So if you are given one at Stavrophore, are you baptized a third time? Or was the Rassaphore tonsure not really a baptism. If it wasn't a baptism, was the Rassaphore tonsure really a sacrament, or was it a meaningless formality? You can see how the tonsure system can become murky.

#4 John Konstantin

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:57 PM

If it wasn't a baptism, was the Rassaphore tonsure really a sacrament, or was it a meaningless formality?


I fail to see how being admitted to the Angelic Life with solemn vows before God can be reduced to a 'meaningless formality'.

#5 Matthew

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:14 PM

That doesn't answer the question at all.

If you are given a name at Rassaphore, you have been baptized a second time. So if you are given one at Stavrophore, are you baptized a third time? Or was the Rassaphore tonsure not really a baptism. If it wasn't a baptism, was the Rassaphore tonsure really a sacrament, or was it a meaningless formality? You can see how the tonsure system can become murky.


I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

#6 Guest_Augustine Martin

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:03 AM

I fail to see how being admitted to the Angelic Life with solemn vows before God can be reduced to a 'meaningless formality'.


Because I don't see how that differs from rassaphore tonsure. You may gain a few "items", but there's not any real difference. And it leaves the question of which tonsure is the ontological one: the rassaphore tonsure or the stavrophore tonsure.

If tonsure is just vows and isn't a supernatural ontological change, then it seems like the western view of marriage vs the eastern.

#7 Guest_Augustine Martin

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:11 AM

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Monastic_Ranks

Haha! Notice that in the early days, there was only one rank--the great schema. I am not so un-Orthodox. Perhaps I may change my opinion later, but I think the two/three tier system messes with the sacramental/ontological nature of second baptism. Also allowing Rassaphores to leave just because they didn't take vows. I mean, that's like saying a marriage isn't binding because there were no vows.

#8 Guest_Augustine Martin

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:12 AM

I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.


Monastic tonsure is seen as a second baptism. No, it does not wash your sins like water baptism. But it is a matter of being born again again. So we are both right.

#9 Paul Cowan

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:28 AM

Monastic tonsure is seen as a second baptism. No, it does not wash your sins like water baptism. But it is a matter of being born again again. So we are both right.


I don't know about that. Just doesn't "sound" right. Perhaps Fr. Raphael can clear this up for us? One canonly be born again once and confession is the next level of sin washing

Paul

#10 John Konstantin

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:27 AM

I don't know about that. Just doesn't "sound" right. Perhaps Fr. Raphael can clear this up for us? One canonly be born again once and confession is the next level of sin washing

Paul


I think that you will find it is not so much a second baptism but entering more fully into the One Baptism. The sacramental nature of the tonsure at any of it's stages is not legalistic and ontological in the sense the Latins view 'sacraments' in terms of indelibility upon one's soul. The sacramental nature of the monastic tonsure is something that was never entirely agreed upon. It doesn't appear in the seven sacraments that some Fathers adhered to but does appear in the list of mysteries that other Fathers attest to. If we were Latins we would refer to it as a 'sacramental' but not a sacrament. We wouldn't be Orthodox if we had such clear cut divisions. :)

#11 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:52 PM

I don't want to speak definitively here because it could be that I am forgetting elements of the monastic tonsure. But at least from what I can recall not tonsure, but confession is seen as being a second baptism.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael
PS: I took a quick look through the service of the small tonsure and could not find a reference to 'second baptism'. Maybe there's something in the order for the great habit?

#12 Guest_Augustine Martin

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:05 PM

The interesting thing about Orthodoxy on the internet is that you sometimes find conflicting things. Some things this article says aren't universally held. However, the first three paragraphs of the Tonsure section talk about Baptism.

http://www.antiochia...spx#monastic004




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