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Septuagint texts

septuagint old testament

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#1 Gregory Zancewicz

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:45 AM

I know that the Greek Orthodox Church has an "official" New Testament Greek text (i.e. the 1904 Patriarchal Text), but is there an official Old Testament text of the Septuagint?  I can't seem to find any information on-line anywhere.  

 

 

 

 



#2 RomanSee

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:21 AM

If I am not mistaken it is in the Orthodox Study Bible. (http://orthodoxstudybible.com/) Let me know how you make out.

 

Peace.


Edited by Anthony D., 02 February 2013 - 06:21 AM.


#3 Christophoros

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

The Orthodox Study Bible claims to use the Alfred Rahlfs edition of the Septuagint, which is a scholarly but not ecclesiastical edition. However, it should be noted as well the OSB has been criticized for not containing, strictly speaking, a translation of the Septuagint, but a translation which appears to be based off of an arbitrary Septuagint Greek / Masoretic Hebrew hybrid.

 

There is no parallel "official Orthodox" edition of the Septuagint comparable to the "Patriarchal Text." But there are editions published by ecclesiastical publishing houses, like Apostoliki Diokonia.



#4 Gregory Zancewicz

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

The Orthodox Study Bible claims to use the Alfred Rahlfs edition of the Septuagint, which is a scholarly but not ecclesiastical edition. However, it should be noted as well the OSB has been criticized for not containing, strictly speaking, a translation of the Septuagint, but a translation which appears to be based off of an arbitrary Septuagint Greek / Masoretic Hebrew hybrid.

 

There is no parallel "official Orthodox" edition of the Septuagint comparable to the "Patriarchal Text." But there are editions published by ecclesiastical publishing houses, like Apostoliki Diokonia.

 

Thank you for the information on the Apostoliki Diokonia.  

 

After posting I found this exchange on Google groups (http://groups.yahoo....xx/message/2984) that reads:

 

The Orthodox LXX text is Published currently by two organizations. The First
being the Apostoliki Diakonia with is the publishing and evangilation arm of the
Greek Orthodox Church of Greece. The Second is the ZOE BROTHERHOOD which
although their members are pious Greek Orthodox Christians and members of the
Church of Greece are NOT affiliated with them. Both text, minus the footnotes,
are exactly the same. The footnotes are 95% the same with the ZOE BROTHERHOOD
LXX text, which still has the better notes.
The LXX text used by the Church of Greece is Alfred Rahlf's Septuaginta text
made to conform as much as possible to traditional Orthodox renderings of the
LXX as found in the writings of the Fathers and the Lucianic LXX text tradition,
which was highly favored by many important Church Fathers such as St. John
Chrystostom and others from Antioch and its shere of influence, as well as the
liturgical readings of the LXX in the Church. The LXX text was modified by
Archmandrite Vambas with latter modifications and revisions done by professors
and clergy from the University of Athens and Thessaloniki. Thus, this is the
Modified-Rahlf's Septuaginta text is the Official LXX text of the Church of
Greece and the Patriarch of Constandinople. However, only the Church of Greece
has officially endorsed it by placing a Holy Synodial seal on the text. The
Patriarchate has only put an official seal/endorsement on the New Testament
Text. This makes sense as the LXX was
corrected, modified and revised in Greece and the NT was modified, corrected
and revised in Constandinople.
However, the Church of Greece's LXX text is NOT the LXX text used most often on
the Holy Mountain. The Moscow edition of 1821 is the prefered LXX text which is
mostly a re-print of Codex Alexandrinus. The Church of Greece LXX text is the
better LXX text, but the Monks received this text sortly after the Ottoman yoke
was lifted and have used it ever since. The monks are very conservative to say
the least. This is not to say that many monks on Mt. Athos don't use the Synod
LXX text, because they do, its just that the majority of monks do not. In any
event for your purposes it does not matter as the Moscow LXX text is nowhere to
be found on the net.
Here is the Apostoliki Diakonia link to the LXX text of the Church of Greece,
which is the ecclesiastically approved LXX text of the Greek Church:
http://www.apostolik...asp&main=OldTes
and here is a link to the various liturgical books that contain the various LXX
readings in Orthodox litugical works:  http://analogion.net/glt/
I hope these links help you. take care.
 

I wondered about the statement:

 

The LXX text used by the Church of Greece is Alfred Rahlf's Septuaginta text

made to conform as much as possible to traditional Orthodox renderings of the
LXX as found in the writings of the Fathers and the Lucianic LXX text tradition

 

I would have thought that the text would have been of ambiguous origin, having been handed down since the 1st century.  If the statement is true, I wonder why the Church would have started with Rahlf's version as the basis.  Wouldn't it have had its own traditional text to draw on, similar to the case with the Patriarchal Text of the New Testament?   

 

Thank you for your help!



#5 Gregory Zancewicz

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:36 PM

If I am not mistaken it is in the Orthodox Study Bible. (http://orthodoxstudybible.com/) Let me know how you make out.

 

Peace.

 

Yes, as Christophoros points out, the OSB is not an official text of any Orthodox jurisdiction as I understand it.  Regarding the Septuagint, the editors state that they used the Rahlfs Greek text as the basis and developed the English translation using Brenton's 19th century translation (which, I think, is primarily based on the Codex Vaticanus - I did not check at the moment) and on the NKJV.  If I understand their explanation, they essentially used the NKJV English translation of the Masoretic Text except in places where it would not accurately reflect the underlying Greek, to the extent they were able to judge using the Rahlf's text and Brenton's translation.  I may be distorting a little, but I think this is basically what they are saying.

 

I was discussing the various versions of the Septuagint with a Protestant friend who somehow is convinced that none of the Alexandrian manuscripts are to be trusted because Arius was from Alexandria and probably had a hand in writing the Codex Vaticanus, which he finds suspect for the very fact it is in the Vatican.  

 

In any case, he did raise some interesting questions.  I am hypothesizing that the Septuagint used in the Greek Church does not rely at all on the codices used to compile the Protestant critical texts and trying to find proof for my hypothesis.

 

Thank you to everyone for sharing your thoughts!



#6 RomanSee

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 05:06 PM

Thanks for clearing that up, very interesting indeed.



#7 Christophoros

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:45 PM

For an excellent English translation of Apostoliki Diakonia edition, using the King James Version as a template, see: 

 

http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/zot.htm

 

prepared by Monachos member Michael Asser.



#8 Gregory Zancewicz

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:28 PM

For an excellent English translation of Apostoliki Diakonia edition, using the King James Version as a template, see: 

 

http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/zot.htm

 

prepared by Monachos member Michael Asser.

 

Thank you!  This is great.



#9 Christophoros

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:02 PM

Thank you!  This is great.

 

FYI, Mr. Asser has indicated elsewhere on the internet that his Septuagint translation has received the blessing of Archbishop Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain (ROCOR), and is expected to be published in September 2013 by St. Innocent Press - http://www.stinnocentpress.com/



#10 Dcn Alexander Haig

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:07 PM

Dear all, Christ is risen!

 

Please take this post not as a statement of fact but as a point of discussion.

 

Is not the elephant in the room the fact that the Orthodox Church does not have an "Old Testament"?  Of course we make great use of the various books, the Psalter particularly, but we have not, until the advent of printing and under influence from Protestant and Catholic scholars ever seen the need for "first half" of a Bible.  While certain sections are preserved in the Menaion, Triodion, Pentecostarion and other books - as well as Patristic sources - there has not been a need for a complete volume with every book.

 

In this situation it would not be surprising that, when asked to compile an Old Testament, we would have to look without the Church to scholarly work, such as Rahlfs', and would then have to correct it to conform with the tradition preserved in our liturgical books.

 

In Christ

Alexander



#11 Phoebe K.

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:25 PM

The OT has been an important aspect of church tradition, especially in the teaching of catacumins and training them in works of piety, lists of books are circulated by St Athanasius of Alexandea and  by St Cyril of Jerusilam in his catecetical lectures to those being preperd for baptism.  Athanasius in particular refers to these texts being seen as important by the fathers of the church.

 

Phoebe



#12 Owen Jones

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:51 PM

Being completely ignorant on these issues, what is the oldest extant copy of the Septuagint?  Or, as is implied by this thread, does no such thing even exist en toto?



#13 Aureo Ferreira

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 02:08 AM

The official text of the Septuagint approved by the Orthodox Church is called "Moscow 1821 edition." That is a very rare edition, as well as its reprint, which was printed in 1843 (SPCK edition). The 1821 edition was approved by the Synod of the Russian Church, and the edition of 1843 was approved by the synod of the Greek Church.
 
In the following link I uploaded both versions:
 
 
Sincerely
 
Aureo Ferreira.


#14 YvetteC

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:54 PM

This is one of the things I find most frustrating since turning toward orthodoxy--not having one Orthodox Bible.  I can't be the only one since I see this question come up on every Orthodox site and forum I've found. 

 

I've heard the OSB is just the NKJV with footnotes added.  I don't care for anything that has KJV in it, on it, around it, by it...you get the picture.  And isn't KJV (at least the OT part of it) taken mostly from Hebrew sources/translations?  I can go out looking for a Catholic Bible and I'll find one that says right on it that it's the Catholic Bible. 

 

I've read that for the OT, the most accurate translation is Rahlf's Septuagint.  For the NT, the best is Novum Testamentum Graece, which--correct me if I'm wrong--is going to be entirely in Greek.  The general consensus is that there are things lost when translating from the original Greek into English.  Fair enough, but can we get one standard version of both the OT and the NT in a single volume that is suitable for use by any Orthodox Christian?   And just to make it easy, actually label it as such.  An Orthodox Bible faithful to the Septuagint, and says "Orthodox Bible" right on the front cover.



#15 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 02:34 PM

In my personal opinion the best Holy Bibles for Orthodox reading are The Holy Apostles Convent's The Orthodox New Testament and Rdr Michael Asser's translation of the Old Testament, both use "liturgical" Jacobean English which in my opinion is a good thing but from you post above I suspect you would disagree. H.A.C. New Testament is translated from the Patriarchal text the "official" Greek text of the New Testament for churches under the Ecumenical Patriarch of New Rome, Michael's Old testament is translated from the Septuagint using the Apostoliki  Diakonia text, which is very close to the text of Rahlf's. Both are very good translations although the H.A.C. N.T. is a bit too literal at times and thus hard to use liturgically but very good for reading at home. The H.A.C. N.T. is available from the Holy Apostles Convent's website, Rdr Rdr Michael Asser's O.T. is not yet published, but is available online here (http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/zot.htm)

 

I hope that is of some help.

In Christ.

Daniel,


Edited by Daniel R., 17 December 2013 - 02:36 PM.


#16 Joel Neve

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 04:26 PM

One year since the last post here and I cannot find evidence that Michael Asser's O.T. has been published. Does anyone know if it has been published (I have found only the Psalter in print), or is it still only on the orthodoxengland website? If it has been published, I certainly want to get my hands on it.



#17 Christophoros

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 07:11 PM

It hasn't been published yet, but is now supposedly scheduled to be published *soon* by the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, which published a version of Mr. Asser's psalter translation.



#18 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:40 PM

One year since the last post here and I cannot find evidence that Michael Asser's O.T. has been published. Does anyone know if it has been published (I have found only the Psalter in print), or is it still only on the orthodoxengland website? If it has been published, I certainly want to get my hands on it.

As Christophoros says above it has not yet been published, I'll try to ask Michael if he know how long it shall be before it is published this week and report back.

 

In Christ.

Daniel,



#19 Joel Neve

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 02:00 AM

Thank you, gentlemen.







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