Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Prayers for Judas Iscariot

prayer

  • Please log in to reply
141 replies to this topic

#1 Jeremiah Taluzek

Jeremiah Taluzek

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 22 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:26 AM

I'm not sure if this is the right place for such a question, but I shall ask it nonetheless. Is it acceptable for us, as Orthodox Christians, to pray for the soul of Judas Iscariot, who is quite clearly suffering in hell? I have in mind specifically this prayer, from Elder Leonid of Optina: "Have mercy, O Lord, if it is possible, on the soul of Thy servant (Name), departed this life in separation from Thy Holy Orthodox Church! Unfathomable are Thy judgments. Do not account this prayer of mine as sin. But may Thy holy will be done!" Is it acceptable to pray for Judas in such a way?

 

Thank you, and please forgive me if this question is impertinent.

 

In XC,

Jeremiah



#2 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,033 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:05 AM

I was taught that we are not permitted to pray for the souls of those who committed suicide. 



#3 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,033 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

The point is that the Church has no prayers for suicides but there are two examples of Russian elders giving counsel in this matter:

 

'There was an occasion during the life of the Optina Elder Leonid (Lev in the Great Schema), who died in 1841. The father of one of his disciples, Paul Tambovtsev, had died an unhappy and violent death by suicide. The loving son was deeply grieved by this and poured out his sorrow before the elder thus: "The hapless end of my father is a heavy cross for me. I am now upon a cross whose pain will accompany me to the grave. While imagining the terrible eternity of sinners, where there is no more repentance, I am tortured by the image of the eternal torments that await my father who died without repentance. Tell me, father, how I can console myself in this present grief?" The elder answered, "Entrust both yourself and your father's fate to the will of the Lord, which is all-wise, all powerful. Do not tempt the miracles of the All-high, but strive through humility to strengthen yourself within the bounds of tempered sorrow. Pray to the All-good Creator, thus fulfilling the duty of the love and obligation of a son." Question: "But how is one to pray for such persons?" Answer: "In the spirit of the virtuous and wise, thus: 'Seek out, O Lord, the perishing soul of my father: if it is possible, have mercy! Unfathomable are Thy judgements. Do not account my prayer as sin. But may Thy holy will be done!' Pray simply, without inquiring, entrusting your heart to the right hand of the All-high.'


'The Church does not command [us to pray for suicides]. How then dare its sons and daughters to pray [for them]? What is evident here is an attempt to show that we are more merciful than the Church, than God Himself. It is better to limit ourselves to feeling pity for them, entrusting them to the immortal compassion of God, and praying for them in our private prayers, that He deal with them according to His loving-kindness and according to your faith in that loving-kindness.'  St. Theophan the Recluse.

 

Whilst St Theophan does not expressly say so, his counsel should, I think, be seen as like that of Elder Leonid, that is, for the consolation of a close relative of the suicide.  I am sure that any person ought to seek the blessing of their spiritual father to say such a prayer and not presume to say pray so of his own will.  As for a historical person such as Judas, I can see only danger in presuming to pray for his soul.



 



#4 Ilaria

Ilaria

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 170 posts

Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:35 PM

we also do not pray for pagans; yet, st. Gregory the Great prayed for the soul of emperor Trajan and has been heard. 

But I think that this kind of ''extra'' prayers are specific to the saints...we should keep to our measures!



#5 Herman Blaydoe

Herman Blaydoe

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,157 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:39 PM

There are some, perhaps, cogent thoughts on the subject in this thread: "Dare we pray for the salvation of all"

#6 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 617 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:46 PM


It is not for us to say that "Judas is quite clearly suffering in hell". Christ has the privilege to judge all, at the proper time. It's best not to judge anyone, not even the most obvious sinner. After all, it was Christ who said on the Holy Cross: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

 

ELDER PAISIOS THE HAGIORITE : 

There was a suicide once, a person who put an end to his life by falling from a bridge into a river. This man, as the Elder said, repented while he was falling, asked for forgiveness, his repentance was accepted and his soul was received by a Lord's angel. We must learn not to despair; and pray for our brethrens asking for God's mercy and according to the words of St. Isidoros Pilousiotis: "do not forerun God's judgment." (P. G. 78, 377) and be judges of the others".

Edited by Lakis Papas, 15 April 2013 - 03:48 PM.


#7 Nina

Nina

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 16 April 2013 - 04:25 AM

I think that Elder Joseph the Hesychast, advised a mother to give alms to a monastic and ask for prayers (from the monastic) for the soul of her son who committed suicide. 



#8 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,033 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:15 AM

Christ, we should remember, did say of Judas that it had been far better for him if he had not been born. 



#9 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 617 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 16 April 2013 - 12:43 PM

Christ, we should remember, did say of Judas that it had been far better for him if he had not been born. 

 

Should we read this phrase literally ? 



#10 Jason Hunt

Jason Hunt

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts

Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:02 PM

The concluding prayer of the Akathist for the Repose of Those Who have Fallen Asleep states:

 

PRAYER FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP

O God of spirits and all flesh, Who hast trampled down
death, overthrown the devil, and given life to Thy world:
Give rest, O Lord, to the souls of Thy servants who have
fallen asleep, Patriarchs, Metropolitans, Archbishops,
Bishops, Priests and Deacons, Monks and Nuns, and all
who have served Thee in Thy Church;
the founders of all Churches and Monasteries, and all
Orthodox forefathers, fathers, brothers and sisters who lie
here and everywhere;
officers and men of the armies and navies who have laid
down their lives for their Faith and country,
all the faithful killed in civil wars,
all who were drowned, burned, frozen to death, torn by wild
beasts,
all who died suddenly without repentance and had no time to
be reconciled with the Church and with their enemies;
all who took their own lives in a moment of mental
unbalance;

all who have asked us to pray for them,
and those who have no one to pray for them,
and all who died without a Christian burial,
(NAMES),
in a place of light, in a place of refreshment, in a place of
repose, whence all suffering, sorrow, and sighing have fled
away. Forgive every sin committed by them in thought, word
and deed, for Thou art the good God and Lover of men. For
there is no one who lives without sinning. Thou alone art
without sin, and Thy righteousness in eternal righteousness,
and Thy Word is Truth.
For Thou art the Resurrection, the Life, and the Repose of
Thy servants who have fallen asleep (NAMES), O Christ our
God, and to Thee we send up glory, with Thy Eternal Father,
and Thy Holy and Good and Life-giving Spirit, both now and
ever and to the ages of ages. Amen.
 
 

This prayer seems to avoid presumption and leaves the matter to God who alone knows the state of the soul of the person who seems to have committed suicide.  



#11 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,033 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:04 PM

Should we read this phrase literally ? 

 

Why not?  The words seem plain.



#12 Jean-Serge

Jean-Serge

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

The concluding prayer of the Akathist for the Repose of Those Who have Fallen Asleep states:

 

 

This prayer seems to avoid presumption and leaves the matter to God who alone knows the state of the soul of the person who seems to have committed suicide.  

 

In fact the case is different because possessed persons and persons with a mental disease will always have christian funerals because they were not seen in possession of their mental health. There is a canon regarding this I don't remember and that I would have to look for. It is a canon from a father, not from a council.



#13 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 617 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 18 April 2013 - 11:11 PM

In fact the case is different because possessed persons and persons with a mental disease will always have christian funerals because they were not seen in possession of their mental health. There is a canon regarding this I don't remember and that I would have to look for. It is a canon from a father, not from a council.

 

Canon 14 of Timothy of Alexandria:

 

Question XIV.

 

Shall there be an oblation for him, who being distracted, murders himself?

Answer.  Not except the case be very clear that he was distracted.

Edited by Lakis Papas, 18 April 2013 - 11:24 PM.


#14 Kevin T. Wall

Kevin T. Wall

    Junior Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 26 May 2013 - 01:14 PM

I was taught that we are not permitted to pray for the souls of those who committed suicide.

You were clearly taught wrong.

#15 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,033 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 26 May 2013 - 02:20 PM

You were clearly taught wrong.

 

The person who was wrong, according to you, was a venerable bishop of the Ecumenical Throne.



#16 Hieromonk Ambrose

Hieromonk Ambrose

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 292 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:35 AM

I was taught that we are not permitted to pray for the souls of those who committed suicide. 

 
" Save those who have committed suicide in the darkness of their mind, that the flame of their sinfulness may be extinguished in the ocean of Thy grace." (Ikos 5)

From the Book of Akathists published by Jordanville Monastery, NY "Akathist for the Repose of Those who have fallen asleep"


http://www.orthodox....llen-asleep.pdf


#17 Hieromonk Ambrose

Hieromonk Ambrose

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 292 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:41 AM

Saint John Chrysostom expresses his opinion that Judas hung himself out of grief and repentance over what he had brought about (“Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented....”Matt.27) and he wanted to go and meet our Lord after his death and ask His forgiveness. This is a truly magnanimous thought on the part of the Saint.
 



#18 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,033 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:29 AM

From the Book of Akathists published by Jordanville Monastery, NY "Akathist for the Repose of Those who have fallen asleep"


Who is the author of this akathist?  Not only did my (Greek) Bishop teach me as he did but the same is said in Russia.

 

This is a truly magnanimous thought on the part of the Saint.

 

Indeed it is, and yet we must not let our sympathy for any man lead us astray: we have the words of scripture and the hymnography of the Church.  Our Lord did say of Judas, "woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."  He also calls him "the son of perdition" (John 17:12). It is usual to contrast Judas's despair and suicide with Peter's despair at his denial and then turning to the Lord and receiving forgiveness.  We fast on Wednesdays to mark Judas's betrayal, the hymns of Holy Week cast him as 'traitor and betrayer', and do we not say before every Communion, 'nor will I give Thee a kiss like Judas'?
 


Edited by Andreas Moran, 14 August 2013 - 08:30 AM.


#19 Hieromonk Ambrose

Hieromonk Ambrose

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 292 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 14 August 2013 - 11:01 PM


Who is the author of this akathist?  Not only did my (Greek) Bishop teach me as he did but the same is said in Russia.

 

I don't know the author but it is printed by the Holy of Holies for Russians in the West, Jordanville Monastery.
 



#20 Hieromonk Ambrose

Hieromonk Ambrose

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 292 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 14 August 2013 - 11:04 PM

>Indeed it is, and yet we must not let our sympathy for any man lead us astray: <

 

I cannot imagine Saint John Chrysostom was led astray by any sentimental sympathy.  He is very "tough" in his writings - just recall his homilies against the Jews.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: prayer

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users