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Does Christ have both a Human Spirit AND Human Soul?


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#1 Jack R.

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:15 AM

I have always understood that for Christ's humanity to be complete, he had to have a created human body, created human soul and created human spirit, united to His Divinity from the moment of conception.

 

I was told recently that because because St. Paul stated that Christ "became a life-giving spirit" that it was not appropriate to state that Jesus has a human spirit. 

 

When I asked what Christ meant, when He stated on the cross, "Father, into your hands I commend My spirit"

I was advised that the word "spirit" here is interchangeable with the word "soul".

 

Is this advice correct- that Christ has a human body and human soul but not a human spirit.

 

I thought this sounded similar to appolinarianism.

 

Are there any references from the Church Fathers or the Councils that indicate that that the "body, soul, and spirit" pauline trichotomy applies to the humanity of Jesus?  Or references to the contrary, that Christ's humanity is completely body and soul but not human spirit?



#2 Kosta

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:38 AM

Basically grasping at straws. How many Fathers make a distinction between a human soul and/or the human spirit?  Some developed a theology on how the heart is the seat of the soul, then went into further details on what constitutes a human soul such as the nous and spirit etc.

 

Regardless, Christ was fully human because he was incarnate in a human body, and a RATIONAL soul. Meaning he had a human intellect and mind, a human will , and subject to human operation.



#3 Lakis Papas

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:53 PM

Three years ago, I attended a presentation at the parish center of my town where the theologian speaker rejected absolutely the trichotomy theory (trichotomy theory = man is from three parts: body-soul-spirit). 
 
I remember he mentioned the case of Greek theologian Apostolos Makrakis  that lived in the 19th century in Athens and was a supporter of the trichotomy theory. He was condemned by the Council of Athens (1878) for this trichotomy theory that he was teaching and the Ecumenical Patriarchate issued a circular also condemning this theory.
 
The right orthodox posistion is that man is from two parts: body and soul. Spirit is one of the higher powers of the soul. In bible the word soul is used instead of the word "spirit", and vice versa! Also in New Testament we find the word pairs: "soul-body" and "flesh-spirit". 
 
"flesh-spirit" pair is used to indicate the quality difference 
 
"soul-body pair" is used to indicate the components of human nature 
 
There are Church Fathers that talk of body-soul-spirit but they are not talking about ontological distinction. Ontologicaly there are only two components that man is made of, that is soul and body.


#4 Kosta

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:17 AM

The right orthodox posistion is that man is from two parts: body and soul. Spirit is one of the higher powers of the soul. In bible the word soul is used instead of the word "spirit", and vice versa! Also in New Testament we find the word pairs: "soul-body" and "flesh-spirit". 
 
 
There are Church Fathers that talk of body-soul-spirit but they are not talking about ontological distinction. Ontologicaly there are only two components that man is made of, that is soul and body.

 

 

 

I prefer to eliminate the word spirit (or soul if you prefer) and keep it body, soul, nous. This makes it easier to understand in modern times. Mind, body and soul,  retains the human trinity.
 
 Scriptures interchange many words to describe the same thing. Christ taught,  'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind (Matt 22.37). And St Paul who said, " And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and I pray God, and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."(1Thess 5.23)
 
Its certainly safe and true to say man is of two parts, the visible and invisible. The heavenly and the earthly, the material and the spiritual, that is Body and soul. In Genesis God made man in his image and likeness, he formed man from the dust ad breathed into his nostrils the life-giving spirit.  But to differentiate us from the animals we also possess a soul with a higher power  which is the nous.  This completes us as an image and likeness of a triune God. 
 
Anyway back to the OP, If the person is trying to say that when the Fathers speak of the faculties of the soul, that part which is the 'spirit' is void in Christ, then they are wrong.  I think they might be confusing Christ's lack of a gnomic will and are mixing up their terminology.


#5 Lakis Papas

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:32 AM

I prefer to eliminate the word spirit (or soul if you prefer) and keep it body, soul, nous. This makes it easier to understand in modern times. Mind, body and soul,  retains the human trinity.
 
 Scriptures interchange many words to describe the same thing. Christ taught,  'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind (Matt 22.37). And St Paul who said, " And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and I pray God, and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."(1Thess 5.23)
 
Its certainly safe and true to say man is of two parts, the visible and invisible. The heavenly and the earthly, the material and the spiritual, that is Body and soul. In Genesis God made man in his image and likeness, he formed man from the dust ad breathed into his nostrils the life-giving spirit.  But to differentiate us from the animals we also possess a soul with a higher power  which is the nous.  This completes us as an image and likeness of a triune God. 

 

This is also the position of Bishop Kallistos Ware, in his book The Orthodox Way he writes:

 

Sometimes the Fathers adopt not a tripartite but a twofold scheme  describing man simply as a unity of body and soul; in that they treat spirit or intellect as the highest aspect of the soul. But the threefold scheme of body, soul and spirit is more precise and more illuminating, particularly in our own age when the soul and the spirit are often confused, and when most people are not even aware that they possess a spiritual intellect. The culture and educational system of the contemporary West are based almost exclusively upon the training of the reasoning brain and, to a lesser degree, of the aesthetic emotions. Most of us have forgotten that we are not only brain and will, senses and feelings; we also spirit. 

 

But we must be careful when we adopt this threefold scheme under the write context.

 

Ontologically man is composed in a twofold manner. Our aim is to save our soul, which will join the resurrected body in the future general resurrection. Our spirit, that is our nous(intellect) is one of the dynamic operations of the soul. If we consider the body, soul and spirit as equivalent ontologically distinct elements several issues rise, such as what exactly is death?  We understand that death is the separation of the soul from the body,  but if we interpolate spirit as an ontological element, it must be involved by a discrete way to death - which it's not true.



#6 Jack R.

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:04 PM

Peace and Grace,

Against the argument that we can not say Christ has a human spirit in addition to a human soul because we would be saying that He has two spirits is as follows:

-God is Three Distinct Hypostrasis.

-The Hypostasis of the Logos is not
the Hypostasis of the Holy Spirit

- It is the Hypostasis of the Logos that
became Incarnate

-The Hypostasis of the Holy Spirit did
not become Incarnate but He
overshadowed St. Mary and the
Humanity of Christ was conceived
from Him and her

- His Humanity is complete, including
( I would like to apply St. Paul's Trichotamy) a human
body, soul, and spirit.)

-because the Holy Spirit is a distinct Hypostasis of the Godhead, He is not Hypostatically the Spirit of the Logos, Just as the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father but is not the same Hypostasis.

-If the above is true, can we not say that the Logos united His Hypostasis with a created human spirit that is Hypostatically His as part of human nature and made it His very own along with a body and a soul (in St. Paul's trichotamy)?

-In my mind, the above could solve the conflict of thinking that Christ Has two spirits. The reason for this is because one spirit- The human spirit -belongs Hypostatically to the Logos Incarnate, while the Holy Spirit is not Hypostatically The Spirit of the Logos. The Holy Spirit is said to be the Spirit of Christ insofar as He is the Third Person of the Godhead.

-In this sense there is no conflict of thinking Christ has two spirits when one desires to express that the Logos' united His Divine Hypostasis with a human body, soul, and spirit and made these three elements of a complete human nature His very own, hypostatically.

However there would still be a conflict if we say that the Hypoastasis of the Logos is a spirit. Does that mean in the Godhead there are three Spirits? Or are the Hypostasis of the Father and Son left as an undefined mystery? In terms of What they are? When Jesus states that " God is Spirit," how does this Statement apply to the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity? Is the Father a Spirit and if so Is this Spirit distinct from the Hypostasis of the Holy Spirit? Likewise with the Son?

Or is the Holy Spirit a Spirit, the Son being the Mind of the Father and the Father being the Source of the Spirit, but not being Himself defined as a Spirit in His Hypostasis?

#7 Owen Jones

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:38 PM

I think the proper distinctions are the spiritual body and the somatic body.  The spiritual body is tripartite, comprising, will, intellect and passions.  The spiritual body's sense perception mirrors that of the bodily senses. 



#8 Jack R.

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:59 PM

Are the Persons of the Father and Son distinct Spirits besides the Holy Spirit?
There would be a conflict if we say that the Hypoastasis of the Logos is a spirit. Does that mean in the Godhead there are three Spirits? Or are the Hypostasis of the Father and Son left as an undefined mystery? In terms of What they are? When Jesus states that " God is Spirit," how does this Statement apply to the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity? Is the Father a Spirit and if so Is this Spirit distinct from the Hypostasis of thew Holy Spirit? Likewise with the Son?

Or is the Holy Spirit a Spirit, the Son being the Mind of the Father and the Father being the Source of the Spirit, but not being Himself defined as a Spirit in His Hypostasis?

What are the distinctions of Being besides the fact that they the Father is Unbegotten the Son Begotten and the Holy Spirit Proceeds? a Spi

Edited by Jack R., 15 July 2013 - 06:01 PM.


#9 Jack R.

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:06 PM

Why does the Orthodox Church teach that Christ is begotten and the Holy Spirit Proceeds when Christ also states in John 8:42, "... I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.?

#10 Lakis Papas

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:07 PM

Why does the Orthodox Church teach that Christ is begotten and the Holy Spirit Proceeds when Christ also states in John 8:42, "... I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.?

 

You may continue in this thread http://www.monachos....hrough-the-son/



#11 Lakis Papas

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:37 PM

Jack R., let me say that you are asking too many questions under one thread! It is very difficult to make a discussion under the barrage of different questions.
 
The word Spirit has many meanings. I think you use it as uniquely identified.
 
Spirit:
  • breath, circulating air (literal)
  • life (in old testament)
  • angel or daemon 
  • the human mind (soul's action)
  • the immaterial element of human being (the soul)
  • God's grace
  • the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. "Spirit" is just a name for this Person, it is not a qualitative determination. So are the names "Father", "Son". We should not identify Person's name to the essence of Person. When we say "Holy Spirit" we do not mean that the third Person is a spirit. We just call this Person with the name Spirit, but we do not define the essence of this Person. Similarly when we say that God is spirit (a different meaning here), we are expressing the truth that God is incorporeal and immaterial, but we do not define what God is affirmatively, but in a negative way - as there is no substance defining the immaterial. 

Also there is a difference in asking "what is God?" and "who is God?". When we say "God is spirit" we provide an answer to the 1st question. When we say God is the Father, the Son and the Spirit we provide an answer to the 2nd question. I think at this point you are confusing things.


Edited by Lakis Papas, 15 July 2013 - 07:40 PM.


#12 Jack R.

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:44 AM

Are there any quotes from any of the Church Fathers that state that the Logos united to Himself a human body, human soul and human spirit?


Any help would be appreciated.

Edited by Jack R., 16 July 2013 - 12:45 AM.


#13 Lakis Papas

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:23 AM

Are there any quotes from any of the Church Fathers that state that the Logos united to Himself a human body, human soul and human spirit?


Any help would be appreciated.

 

One of the best study on this issue is: Against Apollinarius by Gregory of Nyssa  http://www.sage.edu/...sa/appolin.html

 

St Gregory asserts that Christ as God-man had all three :spirit, mind, heart.

We say that the overshadowing of the Most High's power and descent of the Holy Spirit both have spirit, mind and heart. In this way we will not be open to [Apollinarius'] charge that the man [Christ] lacked spirit.

 

St Gregory asserts that man is composed of body and soul.

We believe that one [person] is composed of two [substances], a position derived from the Apostle who observes two men in each one of us. He wisely says, "though our outer nature is wasting away," that is the body, "our inner nature is being renewed every day" [2Cor 4.16]. Here he hints at the existence of the soul.






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