Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Paschal vespers: John 20.19-23


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Kosmas Damianides

Kosmas Damianides

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 24 April 2005 - 05:06 PM

Could someone please help me?

I need to find a transliteration of the Gospel reading at the Agape Vespers service of Easter Sunday in the Hebrew/Aramaic language.

Does anyone have any clues? I seem to have come to a dead end.Posted Image

#2 Kosmas Damianides

Kosmas Damianides

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 26 April 2005 - 06:56 AM

Hebrew Reading
Gospel
Easter Sunday
John 20:19-25

19. Va-y'-hee va-e-rev va-sha-bat ha-hu kha-a-sher neis-gru dal-towt ha-ba-yeit
A-sher neik-b'-tsu sham ha-tal-mei-deim mei-yeir-a-tam et ha-y'-hu-deim
Va-yav-ow ye-shu-a va-ya-am-dow b'-tow-kham vai-ow-mer a-ley-hem sha-lowm
A-ley-khems

20. V'-a-kha-rey dab-row khaz-owt her-am et ya-dav v'-et tsei-dow va-yeis-m'-khu
Ha-tal-mei-deim bei-r'-ow-tam et ha-a-downs

21. Va-yow-sef Ye-shu-a vai-ow-mer a-ley-hem sha-lowm la-khem ka-a-sher sha-lakh
Ei-tei ha-av ken hei-n'-nee she-ley-akh et-khems

22. V'-a-kha-rey dab-row khaz-owt va-yei-pakh ba-hem vai-ow-mer a-ley-hem k'-khu la-khem
Et rowv-akh hak-deshs

23. Eish eish a-sher teis-l'-khu low et kha-ta-av v'-neis-lakh low v'-eim
T'-shei-tum a-lav a-lav yei-hyus

24. V'-tow-ma ha-neik-ra dei-du-mows e-khad meish-neym he-a-sar a-lef ha-ya
Ei-ma-hem b'-va-ow Ye-shu-as

25. Vai-owm-ru e-lav ye-ter ha-tal-mei-deim ra-ei-nu et ha-a-down vai-ow mer
A-ley-hem eim low-ow er-e et mad-krowt ha-mas-m'-reim b'-ya-dav
V'-low et-ka et ets-ba-ei b'-neik-vey ha-mas-m'-reim ha-e-le vv'-ya-dei
Low e-ga b'-tsei-dow low a-a-mei-nas

I found the Hebrew bible on the Net and transliterated it. Hope this will help anyone else.
Appart from Greek, Jesus also spoke in his native tongue Aramaic/Hebrew .


#3 Vasilis Kirikos

Vasilis Kirikos

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts

Posted 27 April 2005 - 02:55 PM

Interesting! Apparently, since Pilot spoke no Aramic or Hebrew, but he did speak Greek, our Lord must have spoken to him in Greek.

#4 Matthew Panchisin

Matthew Panchisin

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 589 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:59 AM

What language did he speak to the fig tree in?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


#5 Olga

Olga

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,825 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:05 AM

....or to the various demons He expelled, or to the stormy Sea of Galilee...Posted Image


#6 Kosmas Damianides

Kosmas Damianides

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:59 AM

Although Jesus represents the whole of humanity and we know Jesus did speak in many other languages Aramaic is a very special language He used.

"Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.John 19:19-20".


#7 John P. Nasou

John P. Nasou

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 49 posts

Posted 09 May 2005 - 02:36 AM

[Kosmas--May I respectfully correct your statement that the title over = the cross was written in Aramaic, Greek and Latin. Actually the = Scripture uses the Greek word Ebraisti which to my knowledge is always = translated as the Hebrew language. Nowhere in the scriptures, either the = new or the Old Testament does the word Aramaic appear. We know that the = Hebrews who returned from the exile in Babylonia brought back with them = the Aramaic language - a Persian semitic tongue - and that it was the = common spoken tongue of the Jews at the time of Christ's Passion. Their = liturgical tongue in Jerusalem remained the true Hebrew. Which of these = two languages that the title was actually written in remains a matter of = conjecture, but the only English translation of the text's word must = remain Hebrew.=20

Christ is Risen - =


#8 Vasilis Kirikos

Vasilis Kirikos

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts

Posted 09 May 2005 - 03:16 AM

> It has been a number of years since I have had the course I took in > college titled "Anatomy of the New Testament". So I pulled my old > text book out of my study and read the chapter titled "The Gospel > According to Matthew: A Christian Manual" which recites "Matthew > compield the reports in the Hebrew language, and each one interperted > them as best he could" (Anatomy of the New Testament" by Robert A. > Spievy and D. Moody Smith, Jr. Macmillan Company, 1969, Page 97.). So > I stand corrected when I incorrectly said that the Gospel of Matthew > was written in Aramaic. Anyway, the part I remember was what my > priest , +The Reverand Father Andrew Lazareides+ of blessed memory, > said sometime in the 1950's during Great Lent in his parish, Holy > Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Roanoke, Virginia, stated that > Pontius Pilate spoke no Aramic but did speak Latin and Greek; and that > our Lord spoke no Latin, but did speak Aramaic and Greek. Therefore, > concluded Father Andrew, when then governor of the region, Pontius > Pilate was qestioning our Lord they had to have spoken to each other > in Greek. Anyway, that is where I must have gotten the idea that the > Gospel of Matthew was written in Aramaic; but I was wrong....Sorry! >


#9 Kosmas Damianides

Kosmas Damianides

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 10 May 2005 - 07:13 AM

Dear DR John P Nasou,

You are absolutely right. Please forgive me I’m not an expert in this field.

I did not notice this before, but the use of the term Aramaic (Heb. meaning Highlanders) is not used in the Greek Old Testament nor is it used in the Greek New Testament. Unbelievable!!!

Where the Greek Old Testament uses Syriac the Hebrew Bible uses Aramaic or Aramites.

Wherever the word Hebraistai or Hebrew is used in the New Testament Greek the Protestant Bibles use Aramaic.

So how and why is this so?

In fact in John 20:16 (GNT&KJV) there is absolutely no mention of Hebrew or Aramaic and yet many translations insert Aramaic into the verse.

Acts 6:1 is also edited in some to include this term. "More and more people were becoming followers. But during this same time, the Greek-speaking Jewish followers had an argument with the Aramaic-speaking followers. They claimed that their widows were not getting their share of the things which the widows received each day”.

The only explanation I can think of is that the Jews responsible for the “preservation” of the Hebrew Scripture perhaps mistakenly inserted this term into the OT Bible. The Greek Old Testament which is the truest and unadulterated translation from Biblical Hebrew to Greek used the correct term Syriac and Syrian but due to the growing enmity and resentment which existed between the Christianised Syria and Jerusalem the Jews were offended by this and preferred to use a more general word meaning highlands or highlanders.

Another theory: Aramaic could also actually be a Hellenised Hebrew word meaning Charioteers (Áñìá)– the Assyrians were famous for their army and their strength was in the use of horse driven chariots. So in the Hebrew again Assyrians are synonymous with the Aramaic people not the Syrians.

My theory is that the Jews of the 2nd Century who used footnotes extensively in the Bible may have interpreted the Syrians to have been Assyrians who are also Aramaic speaking peoples. Who spoke Aramaic first is a mystery, although the Medes and the Persians also adopted this common language in their affairs.

Phoenician was very much related to the so-called Aramaic. http://phoenicia.org/semlang.html

Phoenicia was situated where Syria and Lebanon are situated (ie Northern Israel). So it is highly likely that the original speakers of Aramaic were from northern Israel not Persia, Assyria or Babylon.

Nevertheless the New Testament KJV like the Orthodox Greek Bible does not use the word Aramaic either (although it does use Hebrew ) which shows us that this is a new innovation, to use this term in the Bible both Old and New Testaments.

The NKJ version is a good translation but it is still far from perfect.

Én conclusion Jesus did speak in Syriac (ie highlander language/ Aramaic) since he talked to the Syro-Phoenecian woman. He also talked in Greek the common language. He also would have talked in the Hebrew.

My question is though, why didn't they understand Jesus when He was qoting Psalm 22:1 in Hebrew? "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"(Matthew 27:46)?

In Christ

Kosmas Damianides

(Message edited by matthew on 11 May, 2005)


#10 Fr Raphael Vereshack

Fr Raphael Vereshack

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,420 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 10 May 2005 - 12:23 PM

Kosmas asked:

My question is though, why didn't they understand Jesus when He was qoting Psalm 22:1 in Hebrew? "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"(Matthew 27:46)?


About this the Blessed Theophylact in his Commentary on the Gospel of St Matthew writes,

The multitude did not understand His cry, being uncouth and ignorant of the prophets, and thought that He was calling upon Elijah. For not all the Jews knew the prophets, just as now not all Christians, perhaps, know the Gospel.


This seems consistent with the prceding part of the account of the Passion where we see that the chief priests, scribes and elders also do not understand Christ.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#11 Vasilis Kirikos

Vasilis Kirikos

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts

Posted 10 May 2005 - 03:55 PM

> I still don't understand why God would say to Himslef " My God, My > God, Why have you forsakem me". could someone please give a more > indepth explanation. > Also, how does one answer a Muslim who insists that there isn't a place in the Bible where our Lord Jesus Christ said He is God or the Son of God. Can someone please help with these questions? And no conjecture PLEASE! Thank you, Vasilis


#12 Vasilis Kirikos

Vasilis Kirikos

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts

Posted 10 May 2005 - 04:16 PM

> Thank you for your message, Kosmas. What a scholarly review! I think that it's nothing less than great. I'm going to copy what you have written and put it in my library. Thank you, Vasilis


#13 Kosmas Damianides

Kosmas Damianides

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 12 May 2005 - 04:28 PM

Dear Mr Vasilis Kirikos,

Thank you for your kind words.

You refered to my question before regarding Jesus' words on the cross. I hope this helps.

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

This is believed to be taken from Psalm 22:1 as I have mentioned before (or 21:1 in the LXX). God spoke through David and prophesied exactly what Jesus was going to go through.

Jesus is described as the new representative of not only the Jews but of the entire world & of all humanity. Whereas Adam was from the earth, Jesus was not of the earth, nor of this world, and yet He freely chose to take on our flesh in order to take up our sins upon Himself – as a spotless sinless sacrifice.

Many scholars believe that Jesus was praying even during his crucifixion through reciting the Psalms of David. While on the Holy Cross Jesus took the sins of the whole world, the whole of humanity on His shoulders and it was only at this time that he felt the effects of sin, not His own but OUR SIN. Jesus was the only sin-less one:

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was WITHOUT SIN. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." (Hebrews 4:15-16).

The Metropolitan of Limassol Cyprus, a spiritual child of Geronda Paisios explained that (and please forgive me if I mis-paraphrase):

.…Jesus knew that he was never abandoned, but by taking up OUR SINS upon Himself, there was at this point an intense effect, a feeling of apostasy between His human nature and His divine nature; a profound emptiness and abandonment and pain, since where divinity exists sin cannot exist.

This was the Great Paradox, (not a contradiction)But the Great Mystery his own people (the Jews) could not comprehend.

This is something which could never properly be described by mere words...and yet these precious words of the Cross give us a fair indication of what Jesus was feeling during his passion. We may similarly (but not quite so intensely) feel this apostasy when we fall into our own personal sin.

However, if we carefully follow this Psalm 22 (21) which our Lord was reciting, we actually find that God did not in actuality [nor His divine Nature] leave Jesus Christ, but was always there. Similarly, nor did God leave his people during the fall of humanity, or during the time of their transgressions. He was always there in their self-afflicted sinful state.

Elsewhere David writes in the same Psalm, "In You our fathers put their trust; they trusted and You delivered them. They cried to You and they were saved; in You they trusted and were not disappointed." (Psalm 22:4-5).

And…"For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of Him who was afflicted; neither has He hidden his face from Him; but when I cried out unto Him, He heard me."(Psalm 22:24 or 21:25 LXX). God heard the voice of His beloved Son, becaue though he was afflicted and immersed in our sins he did not cease to be in his presence. “…neither has He hidden his face from Him..” means that Jesus was always in the presence and in constant communion with God the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Notice Also that in the Psalm the Son of God says Eloi (singular) twice (x2) to indicate that He is one of the Three in the Holy Trinity. God is mentioned in Genesis as Eloi-h-im (plural) meaning Gods – this is believed to be the Trinitarian God.

So by this Psalm we learn to have faith and understanding – we are taught to believe that even in our darkest hour, in our greatest fall from grace, God will always be there and if we seek Him, put our trust in Him, confess and repent of our ways, we shall find Him and He will surely listen to us, we will be saved and we will be delivered.

Jesus Himself taught "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asks shall receive; and he that seeks shall find; and to him that knocks it shall be opened." (Matthew 7:7-8).

God was always a Merciful God...mankind however was always rebellious and hard-hearted. Something had to be done and God had a plan.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16).

WHAT DOES ST JOHN CHRYSOSTOM SAY?

“…That they might learn that He was still alive, and that He Himself did this, and that they might become by this also more gentle, and He saith, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” that unto His last breath they might see that He honours His Father, and is no adversary of God. Wherefore also He uttered a certain cry from the prophet, even to His last hour bearing witness to the Old Testament, and not simply a cry from the prophet, but also in Hebrew, so as to be plain and intelligible to them, and by all things He shows how He is of one mind with Him that begat Him.

But mark herein also their wantonness, and intemperance, and folly. They thought (it is said) that it was Elias whom He called, and straightway they gave Him vinegar to drink. But another came unto Him, and “pierced His side with a spear.” What could be more lawless, what more brutal, than these men; who carried their madness to so great a length, offering insult at last even to a dead body? But mark thou, I pray thee, how He made use of their wickednesses for our salvation. For after the blow the fountains of our salvation gushed forth from thence. “And Jesus, when He had cried with a loud voice, yielded up the Ghost.” This is what He said, “I have power to lay down my life, and I have power to take it again,” and, “I lay it down of myself.” So for this cause He cried with the voice, that it might be shown that the act is done by power.

St. Mark at any rate saith, that “Pilate marvelled if He were already dead:” and that the centurion for this cause above all believed, because He died with power. This cry rent the veil, and opened the tombs, and made the house desolate. And He did this, not as offering insult to the temple (for how should He, who saith, “Make not my Father’s house a house of merchandise,” but declaring them to be unworthy even of His abiding there; like as also when He delivered it over to the Babylonians. But not for this only were these things done, but what took place was a prophecy of the coming desolation, and of the change into the greater and higher state; and a sign of His might.

And together with these things He showed Himself also by what followed after these things, by the raising of the dead. For in the instance of Elisha; one on touching a dead body rose again, but now by a voice He raised them, His body continuing up there, on the cross. And besides, those things were a type of this. For that this might be believed, therefore is that all done. And they are not merely raised, but also rocks are rent, and the earth shaken, that they might learn, that He was able to strike them blind, and to rend them in pieces. For He that cleft rocks asunder, and darkened the world, much more could have done these things to them, had it been His will. But He would not, but having discharged His wrath upon the elements, them it was His will to save by clemency. But they abated not their madness. Such is envy, such is jealousy, it is not easily stayed….”

WHAT DOES ST AUGUSTINE SAY?

“To the end,” for His own resurrection, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself speaks. For in the morning on the first day of the week was His resurrection, whereby He was taken up, into eternal life, “Over whom death shall have no more dominion.”

Now what follows is spoken in the person of The Crucified. For from the beginning of this Psalm are the words, which He cried out, while hanging on the Cross, sustaining also the person of the old man, whose mortality He bore. For our old humanity was nailed together with Him to the Cross.

“O God, my God, look upon me, why hast Thou forsaken me far from my salvation?” (ver. 1). Far removed from my salvation: for “salvation is far from sinners.” The words of our sins, for these are not the words of righteousness, but of our sins. For it is the old man nailed to the Cross that speaks, ignorant even of the reason why God has forsaken him….




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users