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The Holy Synod of Greece disarms the clergymen hunters

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#21 Mark Harris

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:50 PM

Why bicker - why not just accept what our elders and betters have decreed.

#22 Father David Moser

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:31 PM

Canonically, a priest is forbidden to take a life.  The reasoning is that the priest gives life by his hand and thus should not also be involved in taking life by his hand.  This does not preclude the eating of meat provided by others, nor does it impose a restriction on those who are not priests.

 

I think that use of the term "sentient" above while technically correct (indicating a life that is capable of feeling sensations) the term itself is so loaded with implications that equate "sentient" with the quality of life that we would term human - that is self aware and "intelligent", that it is counterproductive.  However sentient does not carry that meaning in its essence.  Thus it would be best to leave it aside or to at least be very clear in how that word is being defined for the purposes of the discussion.

 

Animal life is "sentient" is that animals are capable of feeling sensations (and even what we might call basic emotions, e.g. fear, rage, anger, etc) - this much is easily confirmed in the writings of the Fathers.  However, animal life is not self-aware or "intelligent" (again intelligent here is word of many meanings and I use it in the popular sense of self aware existence).  Animals are, by their nature mortal beings with no spiritual existence (and some type of spiritual essence is necessary for life to be self aware, imo)

 

Fish, btw, according to the Fathers are "sentient" (by the technical definition) however they are also inferior animals with inferior souls.  Thus fishing falls into a different category than hunting.

 

Fr David



#23 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 07:34 AM

Whilst not wishing to prolong this discussion, I would only mention that whilst the well-known zoologist, Marian Dawkins of  the Department of Zoology at the University of Oxford, remains 'agnostic' (her word) on animal consciousness whilst acknowledging animal sentience, the Francis Crick Memorial Lecture last year at the University of Cambridge resulted in the 'Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness' by the scientists participating in the conference and this in general terms supports the idea that animals are sentient and have types of consciousness.  The Treaty of Lisbon of the European Union that came into force on December 1, 2009, recognizes that "In formulating and implementing the Union's agriculture, fisheries, transport, internal market, research and technological development and space policies, the Union and the Member States shall, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals. 



#24 Hen

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:46 PM

I have slaughtered many animals by myself, my family used to own  butchery in a small town, believe me it's terrifying to see them cry. And the same way, I'm not sure if we can say that the grass don't feel pain when we cut off it lifeline.  But i'm still against hunting animals for leisure or La Tomatina.



#25 Paul Cowan

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:06 AM

La Tomatina (Spanish pronunciation: [la tomaˈtina]) is a festival that is held in the Valencian town of Buñol, a town located 30 km from the Mediterranean, in which participants throw tomatoes and get involved in this tomato fight purely for fun. It is held on the last Wednesday of August, during the week of festivities of Buñol.

If I have to worry about grass crying in pain from being cut, then I have to worry about my drought stricken back yard where all my grass died of thirst. Ridiculous.

 

God made all food clean. that means animals. specifically pork. If people want to be vegetarians; fine. If their calling dictates they be vegetarian fine. If clergy are under a canonical ban from killing "anything" fine; they chose to accept their calling and all it means. But don't tell me killing animals is bad. Ask Australia about their rabbit infestation or America's deer infestation or fish or bird infestations. We kill animals for food, we also kill animals to control their population. Can this be fun? perhaps. Is it necessary? Absolutely!

 

Paul



#26 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 08:10 AM

Paul raises the important point of necessity.  In celebrating the Exaltation of the Cross, we sing, 'Let all the trees of the wood rejoice, for their nature is made holy by Christ', and there are similar verses in the Holy Week service texts.  This does not mean we should not cut trees for timber as necessary.  St Silouan the Athonite lamented needlessly killing a fly (see 'St Silouan the Athonite', p 469) 'and for three whole days I wept over my cruelty to a living creature'.  Yet at the monastery of St Silouan's disciple Fr Sophrony, they have fly papers in the kitchen for obvious reasons of necessity.



#27 Lakis Papas

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 10:34 AM

Genesis 4:1-7

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.” Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.  And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.
 
So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

 

Hebrews 11:4

 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

 



#28 Christophoros

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:24 PM

Canonically, a priest is forbidden to take a life.  The reasoning is that the priest gives life by his hand and thus should not also be involved in taking life by his hand.  This does not preclude the eating of meat provided by others, nor does it impose a restriction on those who are not priests.

 

I think that use of the term "sentient" above while technically correct (indicating a life that is capable of feeling sensations) the term itself is so loaded with implications that equate "sentient" with the quality of life that we would term human - that is self aware and "intelligent", that it is counterproductive.  However sentient does not carry that meaning in its essence.  Thus it would be best to leave it aside or to at least be very clear in how that word is being defined for the purposes of the discussion.

 

Animal life is "sentient" is that animals are capable of feeling sensations (and even what we might call basic emotions, e.g. fear, rage, anger, etc) - this much is easily confirmed in the writings of the Fathers.  However, animal life is not self-aware or "intelligent" (again intelligent here is word of many meanings and I use it in the popular sense of self aware existence).  Animals are, by their nature mortal beings with no spiritual existence (and some type of spiritual essence is necessary for life to be self aware, imo)

 

Fish, btw, according to the Fathers are "sentient" (by the technical definition) however they are also inferior animals with inferior souls.  Thus fishing falls into a different category than hunting.

 

Fr David

 

Science confirms that fish are different from mammals and cannot feel pain:

 

http://www.telegraph...scientists.html



#29 Olga

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:39 AM

From the abovementioned report:

 

The fish resumed feeding and normal activity immediately or within minutes and went on to show good long-term survival, which indicated they had not experienced pain.

 

As someone with scientific training, and one who has been a keen fisherman for decades, I should point out that this is but one study among a great many, and its conclusions should not be seen as the final word on the matter, when there is far more evidence to the contrary.

 

I might add that many critters, including some mammals, are experts at hiding pain. Ask any cat "owner". ;)

 

From the practical perspective, it has been consistently recommended by fishing authorities that fish, once caught, should, if at all possible, be placed in iced water, which stuns the fish, and hastens their demise. It also preserves the integrity and texture of the flesh, maintaining its eating qualities. Fishing supplies stores also stock items known as "priests" (this is not a typo!), which come in various shapes and materials, intended to quickly dispatch larger fish. A common sort looks and feels like a small metal baseball bat.

 

Some species are also recommended to be "bled" immediately after catching, which involves severing the spinal cord by cutting behind the head, or behind the gills. Bleeding such fish not only instantly kills the fish, but improves the taste of the flesh.






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