The Jesus Prayer: the Prayer of the Heart [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

David Bragassa

02-07-2001, 04:02 PM

Greetings to Patrick, Richard, and all. I am a fairly ignorant and confused person in search of a relationship with Jesus. I know I have one, I mean to say I want one wherein I am a conscious participator.

I was a Roman Catholic until the age of 29. I liked it, and found value in it although I disagreed with Papal infallibility (or even the concept of Pontiff), Purgatory, and some other things. As far as prayer went, I never learned to pray on my own, I usually either read them or fumbled along through my own attempts. I never had sense of "presence", even at Communion. By the way, I'm not bashing the Church, I claim full responsibility for dragging a third grade view of God into my adult years.

At 29 I married a Baptist (who oddly believed in the Transubstantiation without calling it that) and soon stopped attending Mass. We both were in search of God, hadn't found Him in Church, so we started reading a lot and visiting other denominations.

Eastern religions, pop psychology, etc., you get the picture. I finally stumbled across Orthodoxy while doing some work at the local Greek Orthodox Church, and the pastor kindly gave me an introductory pamphlet. I knew I had hit paydirt. I was euphoric to discover that I had been trying to practice Christianity from the outside in (going through the motions), rather than from the inside out( interior prayer, slow scripture reading). Sadly,I also knew I could never be Greek, or Orthodox. My wife and I believe in the ordination of women, and we like music, movies once in awhile, and television once or twice a week. Even wine on occaision. We have been attending an Episcopal Church, and we are happy with the fit.

On our own, we are exlporing the Desert Fathers and how the various Saints (Roman,Orthodox and Protestant) prayed. I guess we are stuffing our new found Anglicanism with other Traditions, but so far, it seems to be working. At least I am back in a religious community, trying to pray, and looking for God with renewed vigor.

I recently discovered THE WAY OF A PILGRIM, and have been reading what I can find about the Jesus prayer. I am at once excited and dismayed. Here at last is the key for me to build a real and fruitful prayer life, but get the impression I must leave society to practice it. Unfortunately, I have to work. I have relationships with people who expect me to hold up my end of the conversation. Do any of you (if you're still reading this overlong drivel) know of a way to practice the Jesus prayer in modern America as opposed to the steppes of Russia or the caves of Mount Athos? Later, I'll worry about saying it too fast or too slow, or if I need a priest to help me with it. Right now I need to know if I can even cram it into my life, and if it will work for me.

Thank you for your patience and any help you can render. Please pray for me, I am a great sinner.
David

John Curtis Dunn

07-07-2001, 01:33 PM

I have tried continually to post a response to David's posting. So far nothing appears to appear, the troubleshooting hasn't helped.

John

John Curtis Dunn

07-07-2001, 01:34 PM

Finally made it!

Chris Papadopoulos

12-07-2001, 02:59 PM

David:

I saw your posting and felt I needed to add my 2 cents' worth...

I suppose the majority of those who practice the Prayer of Jesus and try to achieve stillness end up dedicating their lives to the struggle (as monastics).

But it has been said that it is the right of all Christians to struggle to achieve stillness and eventually divinization. Also, there are a couple of books that help the lay practitioner to adapt the writings of the Desert Fathers and others to spiritual practice today.

One caveat: it's really not a good idea to progress too far without the advice and supervision of a spiritual mentor - especially one engaged in the Work themselves. You will get, ah, shall we say - "symptoms" of progress or even regress. Without the informed opinion of another, you may hurt yourself or become deluded. Very bad.

Until you find someone like that, as a fellow confused person I humbly suggest that you read books like Ladder of Divine Ascent (HTM edition), the Philokalia, the Scriptures...

In Love,
Chris

Darrell Connell

05-08-2001, 05:29 PM

To David Bragassa,

You have received some very good advise to your inquiry so my reply must be looked at in the light of those answers...but.... There are many different levels to the Prayer of the Heart. In the beginning stages you are saying the words. This can be more or less useful. If you merely repeat the words mechanically this, or any prayer, is of relatively little use. I'm sure you've had the experience of reading some material and find that you have read several sentences, maybe even more, and realize that your eyes are following the words, you are in fact "reading" but your attention is elsewhere. You have begun daydreaming as your eyes follow the words. You know that what you have read in this manner is useless, that you have to go back to the spot where you were reading with attention present and begin there again. It is the same with the Jesus Prayer. The words are not the most important aspect, having ones full attention present is what is important.

Now we get to your question, How do I practice in daily life? amidst the turmoil of life? Our brain, mind, can only be occupied by one thought at a time. Most of us need these "thoughts" in order to earn our living, to do our job properly. Thought is very limited and restricting. Whereas we think by one word at a time our "consciousness" can encompass much more than our "mind". Just sit where you are right now.

Become aware of what is around you, kids playing? TV in the background? radio? street traffic? noisy neighobrs? lawnmower? the hum of your computer? your AC compressor? Now, mind cannot take all this in but you consciousness can. OK, let's get back to the Jesus prayer. What is the purpose of prayer? You are making a connection with God, your intent is communication with God,
Has your wife ever tried to talk to you durning a very vital moment while you were watching a sports event? NBA Championship or Stanely Cup? With your attention focused on that you cannot "hear" your wife. You may nod your head and say yes honey, but you don't really hear a word she says....because your attention is elsewhere. The purpose of the Jesus Prayer is so that we can focus our attention upon God, this is what is important, the words without our attention focused upon God are relatively useless.

Now we get to a deeper level of the Prayer, throughout the day the words come to us, Lord Jesus Christ......this should be a reminder to immediately take our attention to God. If we are in the middle of a task which requires our "thought" this need not hinder a part of our attention being directed to God. With years of continual effort we can reach a state, even in our ordinary, everyday life, where we are continually in communion with God, connected with God through our attention. There is no limit to our possibilities of communion while still alive in this physical body. Jesus said that a disciple can reach the level of his teacher. (Luke 6:40)

But I again take you back to other advise you were given. This prayer changes you, using you attention in this manner changes you. Through this prayer you are actually dropping the old man, the natural man, the outer man and energizing this fragile Newborn self within you. You will have questions along the way so it is best to begin looking for a spiritual guide.

Darrell

David Bragassa

09-08-2001, 02:03 PM

Thanks to all who responded, and to the Spirit. I fully intend to find a guide. Oddly, the church we attend had some pamphlets on the Prayer of the Heart, and I intend to find out who put them there and where instruction and guidance can be had.

Barely beginning, I, as you say, just repeat the words throughout the day; washing, driving, mundane tasks, etc. But I feel that that's better for me than daydreaming, going over old conversations, imagining new ones. I have tried in vain to do it for a half hour everyday alone, quiet, and fully concentrating. Soon I hope it will be a part of my daily life, like shaving.

Again, thanks so very much.
David

M.C. Steenberg

28-08-2001, 06:59 AM

David, have you read the wonderful little book, The Way of the Pilgrim? It has become a classic of Russian spirituality, and centres entirely on the Prayer of the Heart and its implementation in the life of a simple Russian peasant and pilgrim.

One of the recurring themes in the tale is that of the power of the Prayer on the lives of average men and women who practised it only 'at the surface' -- i.e., who only spoke it in their 'free moments', walking from train station to home, or from home to grocer, etc. And yet, even in these lives of 'pseudo devotion' to a rule of prayer, the Prayer itself worked powerfully in the day to day spiritual existence of the people.

Bishop +KALLISTOS has said, in a lecture on the Jesus Prayer to the Oxford Orthodox Christian Society, that it is better to say the Prayer in our 'common moments' than to spend that time, say, wondering at our bank accounts, or gazing aimlessley at the distance. Prayer can fill these small moments; and before one knows it, the moments it fills are larger and larger.

If you have not read the Way, I would certainly recommend it.

INXC,
Matthew

nicholas nicolaou

11-09-2001, 03:11 PM

god bless you all.regaurding the jesus prayer i will say that primarily listen to god and obey him with a pure heart and the prayer will flurish.remember though that to make the prayer constant in your heart is to reach the level of the saints and demands great sacrifice and obedience to god

Panayiota Orphanides

14-09-2001, 02:33 PM

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

I am also a very new member of this site. I fully agree with all that has been said above especially with the importance of finding a spiritual father as a guide in your struggles and in growth with the saying of the Jesus Prayer. I don't believe you can do it effectively otherwise.

I am unworthy to comment further on this topic but can recommend a wonderful, moving and humbling book written by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos. The book is entitled "A night in the desert of the Holy mountain" and it is contains discussions with a truly spiritual hermit on the Jesus prayer. When I first read this book I cannot describe how humbling an experience it was. I was moved to tears and my soul began to feel relieved of the burden of the many sins I carry. I pray that it will have the same effect on all of you.

I look forward to speaking with you all again and sharing our knowledge.
May God bless you all and give you strength.
Panayiota

Moses

22-09-2001, 12:24 AM

David;

I seem to arrive at these discussions late; and besides, the good things have already been said.

Sometimes for each knot in my chotky, I say the Jesus Prayer twice (only when I have time). I know there are more detailed and intricate applica -
tions of the prayer, but usually when I'm tempted I'll say the prayer quickly. Otherwise, I'll say the prayer focusing on each word, because like so many I say things without giving any thought to the meaning of the words I've said.

I know that in the early days after accepting Christ I'd remove my shoes when praying;(re; Moses before the burning bush). Saying the Jesus prayer makes each moment a holy moment - all my life a song of praise to God.

I don't have a spiritual father but I know this; the struggle is absolutely impossible to win, without the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, having mercy on us sinners.

One day I hope to read The Way of A Pilgrim, and The Pilgrim Continues His Way.

HIS Servant,
Reader Moses

Michael

13-11-2001, 11:26 PM

Has everyone seen the new page that's been added to the Jesus Prayer area on "prayer as the source from which all good comes"?

Thomas Garland

18-11-2001, 08:21 PM

Yet another very new member!

I thought I might pass on a recent experience of hearing the Prayer of the Heart as a semi-public devotion.

I recently had the good fortune to spend a few days at the celebrated Monastery of St John the Baptist, Tolleshunt Knights, Essex (UK).

Whenever it is not superceded by a Vigil or Liturgy, the regular morning and evening service at the monastery is described as the 'Chotky' service.

After fairly conventional opening prayers (eg the Trisagion prayers, psalms and the Creed), members of the Community take it in turns to recite a complete 'Chotky' of the Jesus Prayer - this starts in English, but can then can be in English, Slavonic or Greek (or another language - I heard Romanian and French). The church is in almost complete darkness - since votive candles are only placed in the narthex, there are only a couple of lamps in front of the ikonostasis, if the main electric lights are not on.

After about 3-4 cycles of the Jesus Prayer, there are variants asking St John the Baptist,St Silouan and other saints to pray to God to grant us mercy. Then there is a cycle of a Jesus Prayer variant asking intercession for particular intentions. Then it reverts to the notmal Jesus Prayer for another 3-4 cycles (though one is addressed to the Mother of God). Finally, some conventional ending prayers.

I guess the whole devotion takes about 2 hours. Very much a beginner at this myself, I can hardly say I was able to keep my attention for very long at a time! But, for the very reason that I am a beginner, I found this immensely useful to dip in and out of a seemingly (and actually?) eternal round of prayer. Guests such as myself could hide in the darkness and do whatever devotions we felt appropriate (prostration, standing, sitting, sign of the cross, etc) and yet feel we were part of a Community at prayer, led by someone a bit closer to God than ourselves.

It has definitely helped me in my personal prayer life.

Thought you might like a different way of doing the Prayer of the Heart!

Thomas Garland

M.C. Steenberg

18-11-2001, 08:31 PM

M.C. Steenberg

19-11-2001, 11:37 AM

Just as a follow-up to my recent posting on the use of the chotky to replace portions of the divine services: Fr Lev Gillet (aka 'A Monk of the Eastern Church') mentions something of this in a footnote to his book, The Jesus Prayer, which I believe is short enough to be quoted here without violating copyright:

"The Greek rosary (komvoschinion or tchotki) is made up of 100 pearls or wooden beads or knots of wool or thread. The practice is to make one rosary bead and one metanoia correspond to each Jesus Prayer. There are two kinds of metanoia: the lesser metanoia, a deep bow without bending the knees; and the greater metanoia or full prostration, with the forehead touching the ground. On Mount Athos, 1,200 (12 x 100) greater metanoias are made every day, and in the evening 300 lesser metanoias. The Jesus prayer has two forms. The ordinary one is very full: 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son and Word of the living God, through the prayers of thy most pure Mother and of all the Saints, have mercy on us and save us.' The shorter form, 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me,' is considered a penitential prayer. The Russian usages are different. The Russian rosary is composed of 107 knots divided in this way: 1 large knot and 17 small knots, 2 large knots and 33 small knots, 1 large knot and 40 small knots, 1 large knot and 12 small knots. These four divisions represent the four parts of the daily office: Vespers, Compline, Matins, and the prayers called 'Typika'. The Russians use the formula: 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us.' They make fewer metanoias than the Greeks. In their use of the rosary, they begin with 10 greater metanoias, next 30 lesser metanoias (both accompanied by the Jesus Prayer); then the Jesus Prayer is said 60 times without metanoias; on the remaining knots great metanoias are made. The rosary should be said 5 times a day. The Russian equivalents between the Jesus Prayer (with metanoias at each invocation) and the office are: for Vespers, 500; for Compline, 200; for Matins, 500; for the Typika, 700. One sees that the practice is somewhat severe."

From: A Monk of the Eastern Church (Lev Gillet), The Jesus Prayer (New York: St Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1997), fn. 8, p. 72.

Tim Grass

27-11-2001, 11:53 PM

That's 1,900 recitations of the prayer per day, with a full bow at each! Would there be any time left for other things in the day?!

Irish Visitor

28-11-2001, 12:03 PM

hopefully not. i think the point is to not get through the prayers and onto other things. the goal is to make the practice all-consuming of life, so that the prayers work their way into your mind.

M.C. Steenberg

30-11-2001, 01:21 AM

Tim, you are right in noting that the practise, as it is set out in the traditional order, is extreme (as Fr Lev mentions in his footnote, above). But keep in mind that this is the form in which the use of the prayer as a replacement for portions of the hours and services is set forth -- for monastics. There is much of the monastic order of prayer and divine service that is 'harsh' by standards of the 'outside' world.

Generally the Jesus Prayer as it is practised by laymen and laywomen is less extreme, set in a manner appropriate to each individual by his or her spiritual father. In the times when the repetition of the prayer is set to a high number, it should be remembered that the goal is not that the prayer should become the day's whole activity, but that a deliberate effort to work the prayer into the heart and mind should transform all the affairs of the day into prayer.

Ultimately, as many of the Fathers tell us, the prayer becomes such a part of the participant that its words cease, and the whole life itself becomes prayer. But this is the state of the very advanced. For the rest of us, the verbal/mental recitation of the prayer helps us progress along the path.

INXC,
Matthew

Marjorie Schafer

15-12-2001, 12:31 AM

I am a new member of this forum and am a Roman Catholic. I wondered how the members who are Orthodox feel about non-Orthodox practicing the Jesus Prayer. Do you believe that it is acceptable? Or must one be Orthodox to practice the prayer?

M.C. Steenberg

17-12-2001, 01:33 PM

Definitely not, Marjorie! Quite to the contrary, the practise of the Prayer is to be encouraged among everyone, Orthodox and otherwise, as a tool which helps lead to right prayer, faith and belief.

At times the practise of the prayer is believed to be reserved to a 'select few' of whatever categorisation: only to Orthodox, only to monastics, etc. But in all cases, such reservation is based off a misunderstanding of the prayer itself: it is taken to be an end, and not a tool embraced to reach and end. The Jesus Prayer in its structural formation and ritualised practise is, like fasting, labour and other forms of ascesis, a tool by which the faithful work toward the attainment of a higher goal: inner contemplation, the true prayer of the heart, union with God.

Seen in this light, there is absolutely no one who is not 'qualified' to practise the Prayer, as there is no one who does not need aid in this journey.

I recall an example from the small book, The Way of the Pilgrim, in which the pilrim is speaking is to a man who had long been a thief and criminal, yet had recited the Prayer even in the comission of his crimes. I do not have the book at hand to quote the passage directly, but the essence of the encounter is to show that even among this incredible fallen soul, the Prayer had and has its place, slowly transforming him from what is worse to what is better.

I hope this helps answer your question!

INXC,
Matthew

Loretta

18-12-2001, 02:01 AM

Good Evening,
May I ask a question?

I recently found this site from a reference on a Byzantine Catholic forum where there was the mentioning of the "Jesus Prayer". I'm Roman Catholic.

In the past few weeks I've begun to recite the Jesus Prayer (in the evening) and find that just saying it purposefully only once (quietly in my mind) is overwhelming. Is this because I'm new to this practice? I'm reading from your posts that one's goal should be to say it often and continuously.

Any direction anyone can give me would be most appreciated.

Peace,
Loretta

Gregory

18-12-2001, 02:27 AM

Dear Loretta, the prayer is different for each person that prays it. I know some people who recite it hundreds of times a day and others who say it just one or twice but spend as much time at it as the others. God works in the prayer, this is what's important, and he works differently from one person to the next. Recite the prayer in a disciplined manner, either frequently or a few times a day, but steady one way or the other. Try to find a teacher. Praise God when you feel his presence during the prayer, but keep praying. He will do wonderful things.

M.C. Steenberg

18-12-2001, 02:39 AM

Dear in the Lord, Loretta,

Welcome to the website and the discussion area. It is good that you are here!

Gregory has made some good comments regarding the Prayer: the experience of it is, indeed, different from one person to another, for prayer is a personal experience at its very heart.

Your comment that saying the Prayer purposefully just once or twice can be overwhelming is actually a fairly common experience among people new to the practise; often a turn to this kind of inner, quiet, contemplative prayer, reveals an intensly interior communion with God that 'feels' very new, encouraging, and even overwhelming. This is certainly a gift from God, whose Spirit calls us further into prayer, and gives us the signs and support we require in that journey.

Might I only suggest that you not 'stop at the experience'. There is a certain danger that the Jesus Prayer, which as I said oftentimes rouses such wonder in people, can become an emotional 'end' in and of itself -- that the sensory feelings that accompany it can come to be seen as the goals of the Prayer, or signs of its 'success'.

In actuality, the Prayer leads far beyond these, to an inner stillness and communion with God that goes beyond even these kinds of overwhelming experiences. Sometimes the devil makes use of these very things to keep us from growing further in our prayer, which is why the Fathers often teach that sensory satisfaction in prayer is to be 'dismissed' -- not as bad or wrong (certainly it is a beautiful and encouraging gift from God), but as only an encouragement, not an end. We are always to continue in our prayer, that we may grow even closer to Him.

When you are overwhelmed by the experience of the Prayer, thank God for His rich blessing, then strive to continue. More will come.

Most of all, however, it is good to find a teacher. A spiritual Father who can guide you in the prayer based on holy experience and a calling to shepherd souls in prayer is an irreplaceable aid in this process. Forums such as these are a great blessing in that they allow for discussion, reference and communication, but the personal guidance of souls on the Prayer is something that truly must be done one-to-one with a wise teacher.

INXC,
Matthew

Loretta

18-12-2001, 03:32 AM

Thank you Gregory and Matthew. Then this will be my prayer - to find a Spiritual Father for guidance.

As Our Lord has led me thus far to His Prayer, I pray He will also lead me to a Spiritual Father to guide me.

God Bless You for pointing out the way for me.
Loretta

M.C. Steenberg

18-12-2001, 11:05 AM

Loretta, may I ask how you came to hear about the Prayer within your Roman Catholic background? Was it through books? Internet groups? Other sources?

INXC,
Matthew

Loretta

19-12-2001, 01:20 AM

Matthew, I was born into a Roman Catholic family and over the past year have discovered the other rites within the Catholic faith .... mainly Byzantine. Being graced with artistic talents, I became drawn to the Orthodox/Byzantine Holy Icons. While searching in Internet for icon information I came across a Byzantine Catholic Forum which is frequented by not a few Orthodox brothers and sisters.

This is where I first heard mention of the "Jesus Prayer". Naturally I assumed people were talking about the "Our Father" and recently discovered what the "Jesus Prayer" really was. I'm sorry to say I never heard it mentioned within the Roman Catholic faith.

I truly believe my discovery was an answer from the Holy Spirit to lead me closer to Our Lord.

Thank you for asking,
Peace,
Loretta

Marjorie Schafer

20-12-2001, 03:56 PM

Thank you, Matthew for your response a few days ago to my query about the Jesus Prayer for Roman Catholics! Following from that--if one is Catholic, where might one look for a spiritual guide to help one in the cultivation of the Jesus Prayer?

M.C. Steenberg

22-12-2001, 04:10 PM

Dear Marjorie, I would recommend the same course of action that is also the recommendation for Orthodox: the best route to finding a spiritual father is to speak with your parish priest or father confessor. For most Orthodox (as an example), the parish priest and the spiritual father is one and the same person, and this is very ideal. But your priest will also know if he is not the best person for the kind of guidance you require, and will likely be in the best position to point you toward someone who can offer you such leadership with his blessing.

Priests are generally very happy to speak with you about prayer.

I hope this helps.

INXC, Matthew

Loretta

06-01-2002, 03:33 AM

Greetings,

Can someone tell me where I can purchase "The Way of the Pilgrim"?

Thank you in advance,
Loretta

M.C. Steenberg

07-01-2002, 08:57 AM

Dear in the Lord, Loretta,

You can find a good translation of the Way on Amazon.com at a fair price. The following is a direct link to their information on the book (opens in a new window):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385468148/qid=1010390053/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/104-4177351-6523127

INXC, Matthew

Loretta

07-01-2002, 10:26 PM

Thank you Matthew, I have another question. Since I am benefiting more and more from this prayer, I mentioned it to a friend. This friend replied that she knew about the prayer and that it was a good mantra.

I've decided not to pursue this further with my friend as I feel she does not fully understand, but at the same time I do not feel easy about her description of the prayer.

It's not a mantra ... repetition does not make a prayer a mantra.

Can I have your thoughts Matthew?

Peace,
Loretta

John Curtis Dunn

09-01-2002, 02:17 AM

Loretta:

You are correct to reject any idea that the Jesus Prayer is equivilent to a mantra. The similarity is only in the ears of the biased hearer who is unwilling or incapable of making clear distinctions between an Orthodox Praxis or some other Praxis. A mantra is primarily used to create a decimal of sound which effectively numbs the brain in order that the practitioner may experience a numbness to the world or material reality. It is popularily being taught as a method of stress management.

Such an idea is nothing like the Orthodox use of the Jesus Prayer. Simply deny such a usage if the charge is repeated. Each Jesus Prayer is one whole and complete PRAYER to GOD INCARNATE that HE might have mercy upon the person SUPPLICATING HIS MERCY.

A Mantra is not directed God Incarnate, though it might be used to address demons. I would not argue with anyone about the issue however, generally those who are adamant to persuade us that our Orthodox Faith and Practice is not really different from their own have little ability to accept that there is a ONE TRUE LIVING GOD BECOME INCARANATE.

Christ is born! God is with us!

John Curtis

M.C. Steenberg

13-01-2002, 03:04 AM

Dear Loretta,

I would definitely agree with the sentiments John shared in his above posting. The notion of the Jesus Prayer as 'mantra' designates it as a psychological 'technique' used to calm and quell the mind, acheiving by vocal monotony and repetition a certain dislocation from the 'outside world'. And while one aspect of Orthodox contemplative practise does involve the focusing and purification of the mind, such purification and focus are emphatically not the goals of the Prayer but the tools it engenders which help in the attainment of its ultimate end: union with God (which is the very definition of true prayer).

John is very right to point out that the heart of the Jesus Prayer is the supplication to the incarnate Christ for mercy: this very act is not mantric, but petitionary. The Jesus Prayer is not a tool for inner peace (though it is the source of profound and great peace), but a means of attaining to communion with God through Christ and the Holy Spirit. It is a 'community activity' of the supplicant and the Trinity.

It is not surprising that the Jesus Prayer, like so many other aspects of the Faith, is assumed by many in the modern social culture as being of the same genre and character as the mantra or various forms of self-help meditation; the trend toward these kinds of 'spirituality' (an odd title, since very few of them see fit in any way to involve the Spirit) is very popular these days. The contemplative nature of the Prayer, its call for inner stillness and a cultivation of the interior life, strike up the same key-words that are of appeal in this very different psychological culture. But the Jesus Prayer is not centred upon the self: it is centred on God, and in this it is very different.

Such misconceptions about prayer, and especially the Jesus Prayer, can actually be quite a problem for all people, including devoted Christians who practise it in good faith. A will that is accustomed to seeing the self as the centre of personal existence is all too eager to see prayer as ultimately yet another act of self. It is understood as self helping self, rather than a broken self falling down in supplication for help from a merciful God. There have been many famous examples throughout Christian history of individuals whose wills and desires got in the way of genuine prayer: for many it led to peril; others were corrected and grew. This is one of the many reasons that the Orthodox Church stresses, again and again, that the Jesus Prayer -like every aspect of the Christian life- is to be undertaken under the guidance of a wise and holy spiritual director.

INXC, Matthew

John Curtis Dunn

13-01-2002, 05:48 AM

Please bear with me as I relay my personal experience of coming to say the "Jesus Prayer" prior to my baptism into Holy Orthodoxy.

My first encounter with the Jesus prayer took place while I was in the Army. One of the men of whom I shared living space with was Russian Orthodox. I, on the other hand, was a Bible believing Calvinist. I was quite distressed at hearing my fellow soldier audibly but softly praying the Jesus Prayer and God forbid, he was also using a prayer rope and venerating an Icon of St. Elijah the Prophet. I assure all that I severely persecuted Elijah with my attempts to convert him, if not to Calvinism, at least away from Orthodoxy. Eventually his tour ended and he received his discharge from active duties. I forgot all about him and the Prayer, until...

One day, approximately ten years later, a friend and fellow church member asked my what I thought about the Jesus Prayer. At the time I was teaching a class on prayer at the Presbyterian Church to which I was a member. Quite confidently I denouced it without giving it much thought. Then one day he brought me a pamphlet on the Jesus Prayer and asked me to read it and explain what was wrong with it. I did both, and I answered with the usual Protestant reply, "Vain Repetions". I then preceded to forget about it or so I thought...

Until a day came when my wife and I were driving through the busy metropolis in which we live. That day began my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, albeit, I was unaware that I would be moving in that direction. We we were riding along in our car when we noticed an individual staggering off of the curb ahead of us into the oncoming traffic. Without thinking about it the prayer came out of my mouth, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me a sinner." As the man was staggering through the five lanes of traffic attempting to cross them all, the cars were honking, screeching and swerving, all in the attempt to avoid hitting the man. The man arrived into the turn lane just as I was passing him. I kept my eyes on him as much as I did the traffic in front of me as he began to shrink into my rear view mirrors. Shortly, as I was cresting the hill and about to loose sight of him, he arrived safely to the curb. It was at that same moment that I also became cognizant that I had been repeating the Jesus prayer outloud during this whole episode, I was flabbergasted. Stunned by this experience I dug out the pamphlet and began to reread it. Only this time I approached it with some awe.

Since I averaged about four hours of city driving a day, I began to use my driving time to practice the prayer. My first experiences with the prayer were quite emotional ones. Often I found myself having to pull over until my eyes stopped flowing with tears. When I got out of my vehicle I was often in an euphoric state of mind. All this peaked my curiosity further, it was then that I did the unthinkable, I went to the Catholic bookstore to find out more about this prayer. I found the unexpected...

There on the shelf was a copy of the Hymns of St. Epherem the Syrian. I began thumbing my way through its pages. I was astounded by the depth of theology and enthralled by the poetic style in which such mysteries were expressed. As I paid for the book I also aquired a small wooden thumb size prayer rope. This began my journey out of Calvinism...it would be a hard row to hoe...

Skipping ahead, we obtained the book "The Way of the Pilgrim" and soon my wife and I were dilligently practicing the prayer. To this prayer we had began to add all night vigils [yes, we actually stayed up praying the Jesus Prayer and reading the Psalms all night] and the practice of regular fasting. We soon found ourselves bored with many things we had once enjoyed, such as weekly outings to our local theatre. We were radically altering our lives around the prayer.

The euphoric experiences began to be followed with states of depression and we spiraled downwards into despair. We desperately wanted to become Orthodox, but I had become very afraid of its ecclessiology. We opted for a Uniate Church thinking it would resolve our difficulties. After three years it had not, indeed, we pined more than ever, but we felt trapped. All the while we kept saying the Jesus Prayer. Our Uniate Priest gave little response and little instruction and seemed to only respond to us with, "How quaint." My wife became seriously depressed dropping down to 93 pounds at 5'8" tall. Things became worse and worse as we felt ourselves growing apart, all the while we kept saying the prayers. I began to pray to the Theotokos to send me a Patron Saint to deliver us from our spiritual malaise. Quite suddenly she answered, sending to us St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco. I will not fill out that part of our story, I will only state he lead us out of Uniatism and into Holy Orthodoxy. We have been Orthodox for almost six years. Through attending the many service available [as many as possible] we have are beomg healed. There are still some scarring from those days, but now we practice the prayer with greater care and the guidance of our Priest.

I love the prayer and it is the first and last words I almost always find myself praying each day. It is with me all through out the day and in every circumstance of adversity. I use it to quell my fits of passions which war against me, though I sometimes fail to see them until I am in the throes, but I will immediately began to pray if I am cognizant of my state. Whenever I have a hard experience with fellow-workers or others, I pray for them using the prayer. Yes, it does have a calming affect upon me, but that is a result of the confidence which wells up within me that God is merciful and strong to save. And yes, certain individuals learning of my practice comment saying it is like a mantra. Some of those who have gone through AA liken it to the Fransican prayer. I will not argue with them about that, but I will correct them, whether they listen or not.

One reason I wanted to share this is to stress that the Prayer can have a powerful psychological affect upon the praticioner, it did us. Thankfully God heard our prayers, and probably more correctly he heard Elijah's prayers on my behalf. I do not know much about Elijah now, I do not even recall his last name, but that is irrelevant anyway in an Orthodox prayer. I believe he became a monk, it was his strong desire and belief that this was his calling. I do not doubt his prayers saved me. I became Orthodox as a result of this prayer. But it lead us through much darkness of soul in order to prepare us for the Holy waters of Baptism. I was not certain that we would make it on many a day. The state of depression were deep and wide, and without the aid of the Theotokos, St. John and Elijah, and of our Lord Jesus Christ, I doubt we would have made it.

It does not always end this way. I know of one who committed suicide, one who became a buddhist, and one who became afraid and abandoned the course after he was enticed by other kinds of passions. The prayer stayed my course, but the 'mountain was high, and the valley was low and many the time I was confused over which way to go'.

Catherine Kostyn

14-01-2002, 01:59 AM

I first discovered the Jesus Prayer well over a decade ago when I was in the process of becoming Roman Catholic. In fact, I became interested in Orthodoxy in general at the same time but was not aware of there being a real choice. I was not aware of a local Orthodox parish, and I knew that I was not a protestant, so I became RC basically by default.

I was RC for almost a decade, but I never lost my interest in Orthodoxy, and the Jesus Prayer was one of those things that attracted me the most, along with the Desert Fathers. I never could really pray the Rosary comfortably, so I had a friend of mine who made rosaries, make me what I called a "Jesus Rosary" out of olive wood beads. I had yet to hear of prayer ropes.

I hate to say that I yet to be able to establish a regular pattern of praying the Jesus Prayer, and reading this board reminds me that I need to. However, I DID finally become Orthodox, in fact I was chrismated on December 3, 2000 http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

M.C. Steenberg

19-01-2002, 08:58 AM

It is interesting to note how many people seem to be first encountering the Jesus Prayer whilst within the scope of the Roman Catholic Church. While I would have no personal knowledge of this, it seems second-hand that there is an upsurgance of interest in contemplative prayer in the RC Church over the past 5-10 years.

INXC, Matthew

Janet Elsie

22-01-2002, 07:26 PM

Congratulations on your chrismation in 2000, Catherine. It sounds like you had a long journey to the Orthodox church.

You said "I hate to say that I yet to be able to establish a regular pattern of praying the Jesus Prayer".... I hope you don't let this discourage you too much. I don't know of anyone who prayer comes to easily all the time. Maybe that's part of what makes it so good for the soul.

Rev. Dn. Raphael Barberg

22-03-2002, 04:10 PM

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

John I was so touched by your story. Great is our God and greatly to be praised! Yours and the other stories I have read here, show me how hard my heart is, and lead me to desire more then ever the gift of tears.

A monk who I have gotten guidance from (although he absolutely refuses for me to think of him as an elder) assures me that I need not not despair, that my prayer often seems so mechanical. He says that if we put in the quantity, that God will take care of the quality. I don't think this means that we shouldn't try to be mentally present in our prayer, but that we should excercize whatever tendency we have towards prayer, no matter how feeble.

Pray for me brothers and sisters,
the unworthy deacon, Raphael

M.C. Steenberg

23-03-2002, 03:39 AM

Fr Dcn Raphael wrote:

...we should excercize whatever tendency we have towards prayer, no matter how feeble

There is, of course, no better advice to receive. Whatever our 'level' of prayer, we ought always to pray, for ultimately it is God who prays in us, and He will nourish our prayer to ever greater heights.

INXC, Matthew

Loretta

24-03-2002, 03:25 AM

Thank you Matthew ... I've just finished reading "The Way of the Pilgrim".

For many years I ignored the Lord, though thankfully He never left me. I remember my mother, now deceased, in her last days saying "You have such a hard life, why don't you pray"? Of course at that time I thought she was simply a foolish woman. I don't know if she knew the Jesus Prayer, but every evening she would quietly go out to the back porch and say her rosary.

I don't ever remember her giving me any other advice and now I understand how inspired she was to have said those words to me. And I thank God too for your most gracious instructions Matthew. You will always be in my prayers.

Loretta

John Curtis Dunn

26-03-2002, 03:27 AM

Loretta posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002

For many years I ignored the Lord, though thankfully He never left me. I remember my mother, now deceased, in her last days saying "You have such a hard life, why don't you pray"?

PLAY or PRAY

In my primary years my mother would come to me prior to bed time and say, "Son, the time for play is past, now is the time to pray."
She would lead me into my room where I would kneel beside my bed and pray following her tutelage.
In my adolescent years I would be running outside our house in play; catching every ray of the evening light as it slid itself behind the horizon. From the door my mother would call out to me, "Son, the time for play is past, now it is time to pray." Of course I heard her call, but the street light with its incandescent glow bid me stay and play. It often took twice more before I lumbered towards the door with the adventures of the day filling my head. No longer did my mother sit beside me as I knelt to offer prayers, but occasionally I would sense her listening outside my door.

With puberty my bedtime was moved later and I would often sit in my room listening to one of the local Am radio stations. I would rehearse in my mind the events of that day. What I had said or accomplished from morning to evening played again in my imagination. A knock at my door would alert me and I would hear my mother say the words I had become accustomed to hear, "Son the time for play is past, now is the time to pray."

High School graduation spawned a new sensation of freedom. I soon moved away from home to find a more suitable place to play. The path I was on was leading me out of the rut in which my mother had so carefully attempted to keep me within. Still, when I would be alone in the night I could hear her voice say, "Son, the time for play is past, now is the time to pray."

I enlisted into the Army when I was twenty and began to learn new games to play. I no longer had time for spiritual conversations with home. Once when I was given leave, I came home only to call on some friends to go off and party. My dear mother had only seen me four times since I left home at eighteen and as I was leaving to spend my next two weeks partying with friends I heard her say, "Son, the time for play is past, now is the time to pray."

Her words spooked me and I felt haunted by them instead of being exhorted. My youthful lusts played against my soul leading me into a spiritual states of paranoia. Finally my lusts squelched the habit of prayer completely. Later having fallen into a deep depression I called home, and my mother listened as I poured out my fear. When I had finished she simply said, "Son, the time for play is past, now is the time to pray." I confessed I could not, and again she tutored me as I sat alone in my dark room, only then from over a thousand miles away.

It would take a couple of more years for the night light to completely fade and lose its drone appeal that I play against the odds with my soul. My depression had lead me into a state of mind which seduced me to go AWOL. Through the mediation of several friends and a compassionate CO, I returned without any charges being filed against me. I was given Barracks guard duty that first night back and late into the night the Barracks sergeant knowing my state of affairs came and said to me, "Son, the time for play is past, now is the time to pray."

I was dumbfounded by his words and listened as he exhorted me to cease following after the lusts of my flesh and to begin seeking after Christ. That morning when I was released from duty I went to my new barracks room [I had lost my off post living privileges] and knelt beside my bed. I confessed I did not know how to pray and wept asking God to forgive me and teach me to pray.

I had yet to meet my new barracks roommate. I fell asleep and awoke about two in the afternoon. About four-o'clock my new roommate Elijah came into the room and introduced himself to me. I began to observe his practice of coming in after work and taking an Icon of St. Elijah the Prophet in one hand and his prayer rope in another, and he would begin to say what I later found out to be the "Jesus Prayer." In my foolishness I imagined myself knowledgeable in spiritual matters and proceed to persecute him about his practice until he was discharged.

It would be ten years later before I ever again heard anything about the Jesus Prayer. My initial response was as negative as my former, only this time the simplicity and beauty of that prayer would not be diverted from my attention. Initially, I only played with the prayer, but soon the love of the labor of praying replaced my playing.
This prayer above all others I had ever prayed taught me the lesson which my mother labored to instill within me, "Son, the time for play is past, now it is time of pray."

It would be through the Jesus Prayer that I would begin to seek out the Orthodox Faith/Church. And having entered into her fold I have again began to learn the meaning of "Son, the time for play is past, now is the time to pray." I am still occasionally distracted by the iridescence of the mood lights, but with each passing fast, be it Great or lessor, I am again instructed in why I became Orthodox.

"Son, the time for play is past, now is the time to pray."

John Curtis

Katie McGrew

07-05-2002, 05:20 PM

Dear Ones...I already posted this in the general discussion thread, but perhaps it is better to post it here. I have started a new group on Yahoo devoted to the Jesus Prayer. It is open to all faiths that are interested in this practice. Discussion of Christian mysticism in general is also encouraged. The web site is: {http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thejesusprayer/?yguid=821367}

Thank you.

Blessings...Katie

M.C. Steenberg

13-05-2002, 11:21 AM

Dear Katie,

Thank you for informing the members of this discussion community about the Jesus Prayer email list that you've begun; I am sure it will be of interest to many of those that frequent these boards.

In terms of discussion here, I am intrigued by a comment you made in your post:

'Discussion of Christian mysticism in general is also encouraged.'

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'Christian mysticism'? I'm especially interested in how you relate it to the Jesus Prayer.

It is good to have you here amidst these discussions!

XB, Matthew

Michael Casey

28-06-2002, 12:03 AM

Friends:

I want to practice the Jesus Prayer. I am a father of four--the oldest is five (Anastasia). I am a high school teacher (public). I just purchased a home that needs some cosmetic fixing (busy work). I am a sinner (no surprise). I have a tendency to be lazy with spiritual matters (i.e. devotions and mental prayer). To sum it up: I am a Christian in the world who believes that the Jesus Prayer will draw me closer to Him, and live a more faithful Christian life as a result. Is there anyone out there that can help me get started? I've read The Way of the Pilgrim and the book by the Eastern Monk. I'm look for some practical help from those of you holy Christians that practice the prayer of the Holy Name. I look forward to your response.

In the Name of Jesus,

Michael C.

M.C. Steenberg

28-06-2002, 01:11 AM

Dear Michael,

Welcome to the discussion community.

I am sure that many people here will be delighted to discuss the Prayer of the Heart with you. As a start, you may wish to read through some of the previous conversation on the subject in this thread.

INXC, Matthew

Richard Domina

09-07-2002, 01:17 PM

Thank you for this discussion. I was hoping you might know of a rule for lay folks like us to follow and be obedient to. I am Catholic and can't find a priest who is familiar with the writings from the Philokalia. How can I find direction and a confessor in practicing prayer of the heart? Thank you again for this forum. Rick

Owen Jones

09-07-2002, 03:53 PM

Like most things in the spiritual life, we can have a tendency to read and discuss a lot and do nothing. So at some point we must simply make the effort to plow forward, and if we find ourselves procrastinating, then we must ask God for the willingness to begin this task. Since it is a daily task, it is important to pray only for the willingness that we need for today, if we find we are having difficulty getting started or sticking with it.

With the Jesus Prayer, it is done by many monks while going about their daily chores. This we can do as well, in the car commuting, even during some tasks at work, etc. But for me, I find that what I need is stillness of mind more than anything. So I am making the effort to sit still and recite the prayer -- I think about 300 -- 400 times (I'm not using a chotki (sp?). Usually by that time I am somewhat calm mentally and physically, and I stop reciting the prayer mentally, and continue to sit quietly. I do not try to suppress my thoughts, but if something harmful passes through I may go back to saying the prayer for a bit. The total is currently lasting about 40 minutes but I would prefer an hour. I think there is a certain minimum time required to find stillness.

For me, I see the Jesus Prayer as not so much a guard against specific sins as it is a transformation to a less obssessive sort of mind. But this is not based on many years of disciplined activity mind you, and I would be interested in what others have to offer on this subject.

My advice is not to get too esoteric about it. I'm not after the Uncreated Light. Just trying to find freedom in an unfree world. (maybe that's the greater miracle!)

Richard McBride

10-07-2002, 12:05 AM

First Thought

Seraphim said:

“With the Jesus Prayer... for me, I find that what I need is stillness of mind more than anything...”

and he ended with:

“My advice is not to get too esoteric about it. I'm not after the Uncreated Light. Just trying to find freedom in an unfree world. (maybe that's the greater miracle!).”

This seems a good way to gain the spiritual knowledge (gnosis) which flows from saying the Prayer of Jesus. Seraphim was reflecting the Lord’s advice to take it one day at a time: “Give us this day our daily bread.” For truly, the extended spiritual perceptions which long time practitioners of the Prayer have gained will seem light years away; and I suppose they are. That the Prayer of Jesus may eventually become the Prayer in the Heart, the unspoken prayer which is communication with the Holy Spirit -- no words, no outward show; just ceaseless prayer as the Apostle hoped for us to gain -- that all these wonderful things may result, is not the point in the beginning. As Seraphim advised, take it one day at a time.

Second Thought

“Just trying to find freedom in an unfree world.”

Those who are not yet Orthodox may not realize that this “freedom” is not the stuff of the US Constitution (as painted by Normal Rockwell for Saturday Evening Post about 60 years ago); nor is it likely to be what very nearly anyone using the term, anywhere in the world today, is likely to mean.

This Freedom is the opposite sort of thing. But since I know nothing, let me direct you to only one of its many forms of expression in the literature of the Apostolic Fathers. In this case, from Saint Anthony the Great:

“18. Regard as free not those whose status makes them outwardly free, but those who are free in their character and conduct. For we should not call men in authority truly free when they are wicked or dissolute, since they are slaves to worldly passions. Freedom and happiness of soul consist in genuine purity and detachment from transitory things.

20. Holiness and intelligence of soul are to be recognized from a man’s eye, walk, voice, laugh, the way he spends his time and the company he keeps. Everything is transformed and reflects an inner beauty. For the intellect which enjoys the love of God is a watchful gate-keeper and bars entry to evil and defiling thoughts.”

And so much more, in the succeeding paragraphs of Anthony’s tract, “On the Character of Men”; Philakolia; Vol. 1; p.332; so, I suppose the point is to be made that one focuses on the current situation -- one’s involvement in it or detachment from it -- through sensual perception, but at the same time do not ignore spiritual perception. This latter type of perception involves the big plan of finding the Way of Life. Probably, it is wise not to confuse the two perceptions. I think Anthony’s paragraph 20 (above) examples how the two perceptions occupy the same space at the same time without confusion.

richard

Theron Mathis

10-07-2002, 01:03 PM

To really embrace the notion that this sturggle is a daily battle does bring some freedom. It is so easy in our instant society to expect quick results and painless effort.

On of my greatest struggles with the practice and writings on the Jesus Prayer has to do with the difference between head and heart. Most of the fathers talk about living in the interior space--the closet of the heart. For it is only in this place that man can united himself with God and see himself for who is he. St. Theophan and many of the Russian saints speak about this regularly. A Christian must move the Prayer (or any prayer) from the head to the heart. This is where I struggle, because I don't think I fully grasp what is meant by this. Perhaps I am trying to over-intellectualize it; and make it harder than it should be. Any comments would be appreciated.

God Bless,

Theron Mark

Owen Jones

10-07-2002, 03:48 PM

Theron,

You are over-intellectualizing it. In Christ, right action leads to right thinking, not the other way around. In the early Church, one was not permitted to hear sermons even until one had completed the phase of purification prior to baptism. The modern sin is that we attempt to figure it out before doing it.

Mark W. Flory

20-08-2002, 10:44 PM

While this may no longer be timely, I would like to sound a note of caution about the usage of the Jesus Prayer described in The Way of a Pilgrim. It is important to remember that the pilgrim was just that - a guy walking from place to place, with no other commitments than saying the Prayer. Hence, he could do thousands and thousands of prayers a day. Likewise, in monastic writings on the use of the Prayer, we are likely to be impressed at how many repititions of the prayer the monks do, and distressed at how few we are able to do! It is important to remember that (I assume) we are (at least most of us) NOT monastics; we are living in the world, with its cares and distractions. This does not "get us off the hook," of course - we still must exert ourselves. But to hold ourselves to a standard proper for monks is spiritually dangerous, and can lead to demonic attacks and/or despair. Here again, the need for spiritual guidance is obvious. The great virtue of the practice of the Jesus Prayer is that it can be done whilst doing other things, thus making it possible to fulfill the commandment to pray without ceasing. (Interesting comments on the history of the interpretation of this commandment can be found in Irenee Hausherr's book on the Name of Jesus.) But we should not attempt to give ourselves direction in its use, nor merely follow whim and fancy.
I will conclude by confessing that these insights are the fruit of bad spiritual guidance in the past, and an utter failure to find competent spiritual guidance.

Loretta

25-08-2002, 02:19 AM

Greetings to All in Christ!
It's been a while since I've corresponded here and I'm glad to read that this discussion is continuing with helpful insights.

As some of you had probably read, when I began the Jesus Prayer a door was opened to me and exciting experiences happened. I've kept in my heart Matthew's words to "continue on to higher goals of inner stillness and closer communion with God". I thank you Matthew for the direction.

Now I pray the Jesus Prayer throughout the day, driving, and doing the ordinary tasks at home and work. I continue to pray my rosary every night and ask the Mother of God's assistance in following her Son. (A devotion I've carried with me from the Roman Catholic Church to the Byzantine Catholic Church.)

What a marvelous gift the Jesus Prayer is! It has become my anchor throughout the day and night. Now as I look back over the past months, I can see how my life has changed ... how Our Lord has changed my heart in so many ways.

I don't know how many I say each day and I make a point not to count as I find that a distraction for me. Also, I've found that at times during the day I'm on the last words of this prayer without noticing that I've even begun.

Thank you again my brothers and sisters - reading your discussions have greatly helped me.

Loretta

Moses Anthony

25-08-2002, 05:34 AM

Loretta
Your words concerning how you practice the Jesus Prayer, are very encouraging. Among those of us who say "the prayer", I'd guess that you're a long way ahead of many, to whom the Prayer would be as natural as breathing.

Your description reminds me a lot of Brother Andrew, and Practicing The Presence of God.
Pray for the rest of us, as we stmble along the way.

the unworthy servant
moses

Michel Depiesse

25-08-2002, 06:18 PM

Dear brothers and sisters

Is the prayer of rosary accepted by Orthodox church? Can an orthodox pray the rosary? Thanks

Michel Rocor

M.C. Steenberg

25-08-2002, 08:10 PM

Dear Michel,

The rosary has never been a traditional prayer of the Orthodox Church. It seems to have developed as a western tradition that never significantly overlapped with the East, and as a result was never taken up in any large scale way by the local Orthodox churches. Meanwhile it became, as it is now, a major and central prayer of the Roman Catholic West.

However, as many Orthodox books point out, there is nothing 'wrong' with the rosary per se: it is a perfectly valid prayer of intercession to the Mother of God (and in fact a large portion of it is nearly identical with the Orthodox troparion to the Theotokos said at Vespers: 'Rejoice, Virgin Mother of God, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee...'). It is simply the case that it has never been a traditional prayer of Orthodoxy; not that there is anything doctrinal errant about the prayer itself.

It is important to note, however, that the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer are two very different kinds of prayers, and their use --despite the fact that the rosary beads and the prayer rope look quite similar in some ways-- is also very different. The Rosary is much more a specifically intercessory prayer, while the Jesus Prayer is designed to still the mind into quiet contemplation. While some of this stillness may indeed come from intercessory prayers such as the Rosary, it is not properly the main focus (nor is it intended to be).

On the personal level, the universal rule applies well to this situation: before taking up any new 'regime' of specific prayers, one should speak with his or her spiritual father for guidance. What is good for one soul may be detrimental to another.

INXC, Matthew

Owen Jones

25-08-2002, 11:14 PM

I'll add a corrollary, Matthew, that one spiritual father may be good for one soul and detrimental to another. So one still has responsiblity for one's own soul and can't simply buck that up the line. Sometimes we just have to take the bull by the horn and learn from our own trial and error, especially these days.

Richard McBride

26-08-2002, 03:04 AM

Then again, perhaps better NOT, "especially these days". There are enough stones on the path already. Let "trial and error" be what it will be, what it has to be. Don't invite error into your life, under misguided trials, or any other way.

There is a total lack of reason, but plenty of willful speculation, in intentionally adding to one's bag of problems. One way of adding to the bag is to attempt to speculate on one's own how to do what has already been determined, long ago, by the wisdom of the Church. Another way is to speculate that one may know better than one's spiritual advisor.

If that is the mindset of choice, then the path will indeed be full of stones.
In stead, work with the spiritual advisor; if the two of you have chosen each other wrongly, then let the Theotokos sway, guide and persuade in your prayers.

There is no bennefit from speculating about the Rosary in an Orthodox setting, and one's spiritual advisor will probably say as much.

There are good and powerful Rosaries said among Roman Catholics. If that is what you want, then go there and be happy.

In Orthodoxy, your spiritual advisor will surely guide you differently. Let your spiritual advisor direct your studies, by asking to read from the works of the Fathers which will illustrate better means of prayer than saying the Rosary -- for Orthodox.

richard

Owen Jones

26-08-2002, 01:59 PM

All I'm saying, Richard, is that if you can find a good spiritual father, by all means do what he says. But what if you can't? Now, to be sure, a very mixed up person can still be helpful to another person. But it's important to be careful when approaching a spiritual father these days since some of them are truly mixed up. As a general rule, I would be careful about anyone "recruiting" spiritual children. Find someone who says he's no good at it.

Also, the converts I know who make a big issue out of doing what their spiritual father tells them to do, and are always quick to insist that others immediately go out and get a spiritual father, are typically the most arrogant, willfull and self-centered. This is not a general theory -- simply an observation.

M.C. Steenberg

27-08-2002, 01:34 AM

Dear Owen and Richard,

Both of you make valid points. The Church has never taught that one should blindly accept the guidance of the first person who comes along in the dress of a spiritual father. Nor has the Church ever suggested that one should search and search until the 'perfect' spiritual father has been found. In some situations, especially in our modern world, a true spiritual father (as Owen noted) may be impossible to find in our immediate location. In this case, turn to the larger guidance of the Church entière. But if one whom God has blessed with this holy task is available, even if he not be 'perfect', accept the gift that God has given you.

INXC, Matthew

Interested

03-09-2002, 12:58 AM

I have heard some people mention a practice of saying the Jesus prayer in groups, as a sort of "common prayer." But I always thought this was a personal, inner prayer, and not something that you could say communally. Is there any information on this?

M.C. Steenberg

04-09-2002, 04:16 PM

[Note: the following is taken from an email dialogue concerning the Jesus Prayer. As the email address of the correspondent suddenly went inactive, I am posting this message here (with all personal details removed) as something which might interest others, and which may also be seen by the original participant.]

I [...] wondered about the Jesus prayer: Does it not go against our Lord's admonition against repetitive prayer?

This is a very valid question, and one that is often asked. I think the best way to approach an answer is to look more largely at the manner of prayer of the Church in general, and not only at this prayer in specific. In the service of the Divine Liturgy, for example, litanies are said on numerous occasions in the course of a single service (e.g. 'For peace in the whole world ... let us pray to the Lord: Lord, have mercy!') -- and with only slight variance these are 'repetitions' of rather lengthy prayer sequences.

In the service of burial of the dead, the litanies of 'Lord, have mercy!' are repeated even more frequently.

On a more expansive note, the very act of 'liturgy', or of engaging in the same liturgical service each Sunday, is 'repetitive' in a very real sense. The same prayers are said every Sunday, week in and week out. The anaphora is always the same; the prayers for the catechumens are always the same; etc. Even if few prayers repeat in a single service, nonetheless the entire service 'repeats' (at least textually) at least once a week.

When we look at things from this perspective, it begins to be obvious that the Church must understand the prohibition against 'vain repetitions' in a very specific sense, since it certainly cannot be denied that she does repeat things -- often. Essentially, it comes down to a question of motivation: is the repetition 'vain', or self-serving? Is a prayer being repeated because the participants think that the repetitions themselves are gateways into heaven, or will make them more righteous? This seems to be the attitude of the Pharisees against whom Jesus was speaking when He admonished His disciples not to pray with such vain repetitions.

But there is a kind of repetition that is not vain; that is not engaged in with the belief that the repeating itself takes one another step closer to the Kingdom of Heaven. Rather, this is a repetition which is based upon the belief that the human mind and will, so effected by sin and sinfulness, have become exceptionally hardened to the true, genuine hearing of the Truth -- especially when the Truth comes in the form of prayers or texts an individual may say.

The kind of repetition employed in the Church is one aimed at gradually breaking through this barrier of hardness and lack of receptivity. The image often used by the Fathers is of droplets of water falling upon a hard stone: at first they seem to do little, if anything at all; for water is soft and a rock hard. But if the water faithfully drips upon the stone with regularity and without ceasing, even the hardest rock will be worn away.

So, for example, are the litanies repeated with such frequency during the Liturgy: not that this repetition makes the prayer 'holier' or 'pleases God' to any greater degree; but because our hearts are hard and are minds like stones. It is only when our prayers, of whatever sort, are given the chance to fall against the barriers of our minds with regularity, consistency and frequency that our own hardness of heart is gradually worn away and we come to see God more fully.

This is the same idea that stands behind the great repetitions of the Jesus Prayer. If one approaches the task of repetition of the Prayer with the idea that more frequent repetition means greater holiness, this is a dangerous spiritual state and the practice should be abandoned at once until fuller guidance can be received. But such repetitions can be used in a holy way: by repeating the Prayer time and time again, it gradually wears through the barriers of our conscious mind and bores directly into the heart. The Prayer is said so often that one finds himself reciting it without his knowledge: when waking from sleep, one realises that the prayer is there in the mind. And when the mind and heart begin thus to dwell on God at all times -- wonderful progress is made.

I hope this might help to answer some of your questions.

INXC, Matthew

M.C. Steenberg

04-09-2002, 04:19 PM

Dear 'Interested', you wrote:

I have heard some people mention a practice of saying the Jesus prayer in groups, as a sort of "common prayer." But I always thought this was a personal, inner prayer, and not something that you could say communally. Is there any information on this?

You can visit an earlier message in this thread for information on a monastery in the UK which practices the communal recitation of the Jesus Prayer.

INXC, Matthew

Moses Anthony

12-09-2002, 04:10 AM

A lot has been posted about the Orthodox practice of saying the "Jesus Prayer" -how it compares to the R.C. practice of the Rosary, the vision of the 'uncreated light'. I had a thought today while trying to memorize Psalm 103.

Much of what we hear about The Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor relates either to: (1) the light being the true essence of of the naure of Christ, or(2) an experience of grace confered upon those who struggle more successfully against the passions.

The Psalmist says in praise of God, "...who covers Thyself with light as with a cloak....". Moses, Isaiah and the holy Apostle John all had experiences of being in the light of God's glory. This is also the experience of the priests and Levites at the Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple, and so we Orthodox say that God dwells in unapproachable light. This is the light of Tabor. However; the Psalmist says that, as any one of us would toss a cloak about their shoulders, God covers himself with light. I infered from this that; (1)God is greater than the light with which he surrounds himself, and (2)even as awesome as the experience of grace of the "uncreated light of Tabor" may be, God is grreater still.

The holy Apostle Paul said, "... oh the depth of the wisdom of the knowledge and grace of God. How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable His ways". An anonymous poet said it thusly:

We can only see a little of God's love --
A few rich treaures from His mighty store;
But out there -- beyond,
beyond our eyes' horizion,
There's more -- there's more!

the unworthy servant

Mark W. Flory

12-09-2002, 08:45 PM

I would like to hear some other comments concerning the intriguing post by Mr. Anthony, above. Specifically, is it accurate to say, as Mr. Anthony does, that "God is greater than the light with which he surrounds himself, and (2)even as awesome as the experience of grace of the "uncreated light of Tabor" may be, God is greater still"? My understanding is that while there is a distinction between God's essence and His energies (grace), this is a distinction without a difference. Put another way, God's grace is simply the superabundance of His condescending love for creation - His grace is no less Him that His essence is. The doctrines of the utter unknowability of God's essence, and the uncreated nature of His grace, are key theological differences between Orthodox and Roman Catholic (read: Thomist) theology. So, while in one sense, it seems that it would be accurate to say that God's essence is "greater" than His energies - in the sense that our participation in God's energies is a process of endless perfection, "glory upon glory," in which nevertheless we never perceive God's essence - it seems to me somewhat risky language, since God's grace is every bit as much God as His essence is.

Owen Jones

12-09-2002, 09:12 PM

The Fathers made two important intellectual distinctions.

Between: 1) Created and uncreated
2) Sensible reality and intelligible reality.

As for (1) they argued that we cannot know God in His essence, only through the things He has made, because there is an absolute distinction between created and uncreated. The term used for God in His essence is Beyond. As in Beyond all things, concepts, ideas and knowledge, beyond all Being. However, we participate in God through His Grace, in an in-between reality. So I think the doctrine of participation (methexis???) is the key to understanding this, along with their teachings on metaxy (inbetween reality). They have to be taken together. Otherwise we tend to objectivize terminology, objectify reality, objectify concepts, and this process of objectification, while premissible on a certain level, is verboten in any absolute sense. The idea of the absolute is a modern German romantic term, by the way, and is not really consistent with Orthodox theology.

Now, I am less familiar with the later controversy over the uncreated light and would have to defer to those who have studied those debates and the Council which pronounced it Orthodox. On the level of participation, I can see where one could argue that it is God's essence. But on the level of knowability, it is not. I do not think the idea of an experience of participation in God's essence through the uncreated light is inconsistent with the idea that God in His essence is unknowable.

All of our thinking today tends to be contextualized by modernist (progressivist) philosophical and religious assumptions. The essence of modernity is the idea that there is an intrinsic progress in history toward innerworldly fulfillment, so that, in effect, man finally catches up with God.

It's interesting to note that Hegel pronounced the Protestant principle as God's mind and man's mind have become one.

M.C. Steenberg

12-09-2002, 09:57 PM

In discussing the distinction between the essence (ousia) and energies (energiai) of God, terms such as 'greater' or 'better', and the like, become rather difficult. The essence and the energies are both aspects of God who is the ultimate Good. Is it possible to be 'greater' than the ultimate good? Put another way, is one aspect of God able to be called 'better' than another, given that God is perfect in all His aspects?

Among the manners in which we distinguish between the essence and the energies of the Trinity, distinctions of 'greater' and 'better' are to be avoided as rather perilous in their propensity for misinterpretation. However, one can speak - as the Fathers often do - of their extreme difference in terms of the fullness of the Being of God. As St Gregory of Nyssa, St Basil of Caesarea, St Gregory Palamas and so many others make clear, God is His essence, manifested to creation in His energies. The divine energies are thus not part of the creation (they are 'uncreated') and are directly of God's being (and thus represent the highest means of our knowledge and vision of God); but the divine essence, that which is the true, essential being of God, transcends His energies to an incomparable degree - even though the energies are borne of that Being.

To say that God is not 'greater' than His energies is true, if qualified. God's energies are the manifestation of His being in creation, and thus constitute fully the perfection of God Himself. But the divine essence, which transcends creation infintely, can certainly said to be 'above' His energies, as that which gives them rise. So it would not be inaccurate to suggest that 'God is greater than the glory in which He clothes Himself', or similar statements; as long as we understand how 'greater' is understood.

As a more concrete example: when Moses stood before the burning bush on Mt Sinai, he stood in the presence of a directly manifested energy of God. He was in the actual presence of the Lord in His uncreated spleandour; yet God Himself infinitely transcended even that perfect manifestation of His nature. Moses never would have claimed to have seen the 'whole' of God (for want of a better term), even though he knew that He had seen God Himself. So, too, with the disciples on Mt Tabor. The essence of God infintely transcends the perfection of his energies.

We can see how language becomes a delicate matter (and a problematic, limiting one) when attempting to come to a knowledge of the nature of God.

INXC, Matthew

Moses Anthony

13-09-2002, 03:36 AM

The above is just a thought I had. I'm by no means attempting to put forth any type of teaching, dogma, theology,etc.,etc.

I am greater than any cloak I throw around my shoulders; but, I am only a man. God is the creator of all that is; so, to my limited thinking if God covers Himself with light as a cloak, then as the uncreated diety He is, God is greater than the light which surrounds him.

The greatest of my concerns in sharing the thought was the possibility of heresy. Therefore, correct me,instruct me in the Way more accurately.

the unworthy servant

Moses Anthony

13-09-2002, 03:50 AM

Thanks Matthew! Apparently I lack the training to adequately express what I'm thinking and feeling.
I just printed your post so as to give it a slower and thorough reading. Again, thank you!

the unworthy servant

M.C. Steenberg

13-09-2002, 06:35 PM

Dear Moses,

Actually, I found your thoughts quite interesting. In topics such as these, expressing things accurately in words becomes very difficult (or, more accurately, impossible). If we understand that we are unable to do so, perhaps we should see that as a positive sign. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

INXC, Matthew

david guilinger

28-11-2002, 11:11 PM

Dear fellow Pilgrims who practice the Prayer:
I have been trying to practice the Jesus Prayer for nearly 30 years. Sometimes doubts arise. Is it enough to have such a singular-focussed prayer toward God? Does this lead to atrophy of the rest of our personal relationship with God? I am always looking for advice of the actual practice of the prayer.

From Dave_g USA

Katerina

29-11-2002, 12:02 AM

Far be it for me to be able to say anything about what you should do, as I am yet Orthodox only 6 1/2 years and my practice of the Prayer is but an infintesimal part of that time.

However, it occurs to me to wonder if you have approached God in prayer about this?

There is also a link above "an earlier message to this thread" that takes you to a page where they discuss practice of the Prayer in place of services of the Church, that is done on Mt. Athos. Those might be worth your consideration...

She who needs to learn the difference between pride and humility,

Katerina

Owen Jones

29-11-2002, 12:36 AM

Dear DAve,

I won't say that the Jesus Prayer is the answer to all of my problems. I can recite the prayer for an hour, and an hour later yell at the dog and want to strangle somebody in my mind. But I still can't imagine a better way to spend that hour of my time. I suppose you can turn anything into an ideology, and a group of Athonites once claimed that the Jesus Prayer was equal to the Eucharist. But the questions you are asking seem to me like needless fretting. Also, it's a great prayer especially for Christians who do not live in an Orthodox culture and who do not have the opportunity for a regular community worship life and sense of communion with other Orthodox Christians in close proximity. It's also good for people who just don't like being around other people, and there is a fine tradition in Orthodoxy for that which we should not disparage. I do think it is a prayer that is designed to be used extensively for its full benefit, not just repeated a few times. It takes me about an hour, minimum, for me to receive the benefit of leaving this world in my mind.

Richard McBride

29-11-2002, 04:47 AM

Dear David:

I am amazed and delighted at the beauty in the messages on the Prayer of the Heart. It seems that not enough may be said in these messages. I love them, and receive an emphatic boost from the Holy Spirit in the process: I am speaking here of reading just the messages themselves.

One section of them is at this URL if you have not found them.

richard mcb

Loretta Smith

01-12-2002, 02:48 AM

Greetings All!

David,

May I make a suggestion that I've found very helpful? I've just finished reading (literally about an hour ago) "The Art of Prayer" an Orthodox Anthology compiled by Igumen Chariton of Valamo and translated by E. Kadloubovsky and E. M. Palmer, a faber and faber publication.

It is quite direct, thorough and easy to understand. I'm sure I'll read it over and over again.

Loretta

Moses Anthony

01-12-2002, 04:40 AM

David G.

I attended a Parish Life Conference at which I heard wonderful male voices chanting. Upon being tonsured Reader by my Bishop, I attempted to immitate the style I'd heard at that conference. I also tried to recapture the style of the cantor at a Greek Orthodox church. To this date I've not been able to immitate either one. So what to do! I picked up my Bible and began chanting through the Psalms, asking God to help me chant in the way He wanted. Along the way I've picked up some very helpful information, which I refer to every now and then. However, the basic style of my chanting is still the same! My former priest also gave me and a nother deacon this bit of advice; the rythm of worship is different for each person in the services, therefore being loud or fast all the time is more a distraction.

The Prayer of The Heart is much the same way, but then I would suppose that after 30 years you could instruct any of us.

I know that sometimes other "minute" prayers spring off the times I'm saying the Jesus Prayer -most of which have to do with repentence. I know that when I repeat the "Our Father... so much more comes to my mind and heart(such as , "hallowed be Thy name, in my words, thoughts, attitudes and deeeds).

So doubts arise, yes, but then: Lord have mercy. Is it, the Jesus Prayer, good enough to have such a singularly thought towards God? I suppose the answer to that would be in answering what is your focus, what is your goal in practicing the prayer.

Like the Our Father, I believe there's so much more to the Prayer of The Heart, waiting for extraction by those willing to "search for the wisdom of God as silver...."

Please forgive me for even attempting to inform you about something of which I'm so ignorant.

the unworthy servant

dimitry orlovski

25-12-2002, 09:02 PM

I have just started practicing Jesus Prayer.

My information sources are

1)book of ArchBishop Antony " The way of the inward practice and blessedness "
2)John of the Ladder
3)various articles from the Web.

All the authors speak about necessity of spiritual guidance of starets. I am looking for one.I live in Jewish part of Nazareth (Galilee).There are many monasteries in Christian part of the city,but it is difficult to find starets who will be willing to instruct layman with Russian,English or Hebrew language of
communication.

Owen Jones

25-12-2002, 11:51 PM

Sorry to sound so crass, Dimitri, but your personal story and circumstances right now sound more interesting to me than the Jesus Prayer. Tell us a little more about yourself and what life is like today where you live.

What do most of the local monastics speak? Only Arabic or Greek? Also, if you get a referral from your priest, you never know but you might find a monk somewhere willing to guide you via e-mail.

Owen Jones

david guilinger

27-12-2002, 05:20 PM

Dear Dimitri
I hope you are successful in finding someone to personally guide you in the Jesus Prayer. I, like many others have not been able to find an experienced guide. In the meantime I have been following the advice of 2 great spiritual masters of the Jesus Prayer found in the literature. They are Saint Theophane the Recluse (found in the book; The Art of Prayer) and Bishop Kallistos Ware (found in his booklet; The Power of the Name). Both of these teachers say that if you practice the prayer in without the use of the deliberate bodily techniques of breath or heart synchronization, you will come to no harm and recieve great benefit, even without a personal spiritual director. Almost all teachers agree that the use of the bodial techniques requires the careful direction of a very experienced master of the prayer. I have also found I stay out of trouble if I keep recitation of the prayer down to a few hundred or a few thousand times per day. Whenever I have gone most of the day saying the prayer, I start having mental difficulties. But maybe thats just my personal problem.
Best wishes in your pracitice of the Prayer!

David Guilinger

dimitry orlovski

02-01-2003, 06:51 PM

dear Owen

honestly, the Jesus Prayer is much more interesting that I am.In brief about myself: I am 31 years old, I was baptised twice, first in St.Peter's Church in Old Jaffa and secondly in Holy Apostle's Church in Capernaum together with my wife right before my marriage. 7 last years I'm trying to be fervent Orthodox under spiritual influence of Russian Orthodox Church and jurisdiction of Jerusalem Orthodox Church.My main direction in worship is prayer and fasting.I have partially
Orthodox family:mother,wife and junior kid.

Terry Justison

20-03-2003, 03:28 AM

This is my first posting. I am a former Kriya Yoga disciple of 8 years. I would get up at 3:30 AM and practice meditation, pranayam and mantra for 4 or 5 hours every day. Then about 2 years ago I began to be drawn to Christianity, and am now a born again Christian baptized in the Holy Spirit. When I was first initiated into Yoga my guru mentioned the book - Way of a Pilgrim. Which I got a copy of and from then on I was always drawn to the Jesus Prayer over the Yoga mantras which I was practicing. But I never made the the switch until a little over a year ago.

Now I get up early every morning and pray the Jesus Prayer for 3-4 hours. Then I try to pray whenever I can during the day and I go to bed repeating the prayer. If I wake up at night I immediately begin to recite the prayer.

I no longer use prayer beads as I feel they are a distraction and I am not interested in counting any more. I concentrate on my breathing and on the heart center. Often I feel a heaviness or warmth in the heart area. I don't believe I could give up the prayer. To me the esence of the prayer is calling upon the name above all names "Jesus", and the resulting quieting of the mind and senses so that we can feel the presence of God. We attend a spirit filled church (Pentacostal) and usually there is a heavy presence of God, but it is nothing compared to the presence of God I feel when doing this prayer.

My only problems have been doubts which come upon me about the validity of this type of prayer. Part of the problem is I can't discuss it with any of my Christian friends including my wife as they think it is some sort of Pagan worship left over from my Yoga days. They also don't think very highly of Catholics either. The rosary and repetitive prayer are a big no-no. But I can't (won't) give up this type of prayer so I just continue to practice it in silence. I love silence. I no longer listen to the radio or secular TV. Also I try to read 10 or 20 pages of the Bible each day. I have read the version of the Philokalia which relates to prayer of the heart and the Jesus prayer. It bothers me somewhat that I have no physical spiritual guide, but I trust that the Holy Spirit/Jesus will guide me and lead me away from spiritual pitfalls. When I fall off the path or experience spiritual heaviness, then I will experience a period of dryness in the prayer, but if I persevere that will soon come to an end. I think my biggest problem is paying too much attention to the doubts that nag me and to those who would discredit prayer of the heart.

Ever since I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior I have experienced the Holy Spirit, but the prayer truly magnifies that presence.

I have read all the postings under Jesus Prayer and found them quite interesting and useful. I am always interested in finding insight into this technique, but I must confess that I feel the best insight I have received comes from the Way of a Pilgrim and secondly from the Philokalia. Then by just practicing the prayer as described in The Way of a Pilgrim, and by having faith that God will provide any guidance as I need it.

One last comment. A lot of people try to intellectualize (I guess that is a word) spiritual practices. When I spend several hours scouring the internet or reading a book other than those I mentioned, at the end I usually feel somewhat frustrated and anxious to get back to basics - the prayer and seeking God's face. Much of this is a mystery and only God knows the answers. Only by seeking him will we be fullfilled and find the answers. I pray that I have been of some service and that I have not been prideful for I have just written this kind of matter of factly for my righteousness is truly but filthy rags in God's eyes.

If anyone is interested they can read my testimony at http://www.thetruelight.net/TheTrueLight/personalstories/terryjustison.htm

God Bless

Terry

Fr Averky

20-03-2003, 05:06 AM

Dear Terry,

I would really suggest that you be very careful, for you are going into spiritually dangerous waters. I would say that for you, it would be better to attend your churcvh regularly, read your Bible, but don't over do it in anything. One should do all things in moderation. You have kind of a mixed bag; yoga, being a Pentacostal, and practicing the Jesus Prayer. At some point you are going to decide exactly who and what you are, for I fear at some point you will reach a real spiritual crisis. One of monks here was also practicing yoga until he went to the Holy Mt. Athos and one of elders warned him against it, saying that just by sitting in the yoga position, he could unleash dark forces which he could not resist. Frankly, you are just doing what you want, and as you say, you have no guide. In monasteries, the Jesus Prayer is said under the guidance of one's spiritual father. The Evil One is very subtle, and he can fill you with pride, helping you to think that you have reached spiritual heights. Be careful I most certainly will pray for you You would do well, to look into Orthodoxy, for that is where the Jesus Prayers comes from - it does not fit into Pentacostal thought or theology.

Fr. A.

Terry Justison

20-03-2003, 12:36 PM

I am replying to Rev. Hieromonk A. I thank you for your reply and your concern over my spiritual path. I am no longer involved in Yoga. I have burned all my Yoga materials and given it all over to Christ. I am involved with Mike Shreve in exposing Yoga, Eastern Religions, and new age movements as false religions and cults. I know who I am. I am a new creature born in Christ. I am sorry that you believe only the Orthodox can practice the Jesus Prayer. I didn't expect a lot of praise by putting my Testimony on your site. I am well aware of the evil one. He is the one putting all the doubts in my mind. I pray everyday that I wil not fall into pride or prelest. But, I would rather risk failure than settle for a life of spiritual mediocracy. I feel that I have a calling. That God involved me in Yoga to the extent that he did so I would have the experience to show it for the Pagan worship it is. Rather than being an open door for Satan, my Yoga experience is a great reinforcer of my belief in Jesus as my Savior and Redeemer. I believe that the world is in perilous times. Perhaps the end times are near. Many Bible prophecies are coming to pass. I believe there is a quickening occurring in the spread of the gospel. I believe that people should be encouraged in Jesus in these times. What better way to be with Jesus than the Jesus Prayer. I don't believe that God is so concerned with our denomination, but with what is in our hearts. I pour out my heart to you and to Jesus! God Bless Terry

Fr Averky

21-03-2003, 02:55 AM

Dear Terry.
Thank you for your kind reply. It is interesting that our generation got into Oriental religions. Several monastics that I know made the same journey that you did. I have always been amazed how Yogis have recommended Orthodox spiritual books to their students; my friend lived with a rather curious Greek fellow who practiced yoga, but also was a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. While working at a health food store owned by this same man, my acquaintance started reading a small book about St. Seraphim of Sarov. In time, he became very disturbed by mixing the two religions, and started attending a Russian Orthodox church. One of the very insidious aspects of Hinduism is that it takes so many forms, that there is room for virtually every belief-Christianity is considered but one of many paths to godhood. Thus when it is suggested by a Yogi to use the Jesus Prayer as a mantra. he is doing great harm to his student.Imagine the myriads of Hindu gods, some of them like Kali, whose followers strangle people, Monkey gods, snake gods, and an elephant god. Looking at them from a Christian perspective, they are really quite demonic. Now, while you have, Glory be to God, left that part of your life behind, you are moving in the right direction. When I caution you about the use of the Jesus Prayer, I simply want to caution you to not use it as a replacement mantra, merely substituting it for one that you used to use. The Fathers of the Orthodox warn the faithful not to make us of spiritual excersises without careful guidance. Unguided spiritual attempts can be a disaster. for people have been borne away by pride and spiritual delusion, have crashed, and almost lost their senses. About twenty five years ago, we had a man who came here, boldly announcing that he had come to be a "great ascetic," claiming to say one Jesus Prayer every one and a half seconds. After about three weeks, he began to exhibit really bizzare behaviour: he would wander the halls, or go to the student lounge wearing only long Johns. He started getting angry with people when they tried even to say "hello," shouting at them that they were disturbing his prayer and peace! He stopped going to church, and avoided contact with othr people as much as he could. Finally, one night we had a terrific snow storm. He came to my room ( I was guest master at the time) and started jumping up and down, screaming at the top of his lungs that he could not stay another minute. I asked him to sit down for a minute, then told him that I really could not do anything - it was three in the morning, and snow was coming down at a bout 4-5 inches an hour. I told him to go to his room, go to sleep, and I promised that I would get him a ride in just a few hours. Turned out that he managed to get a taxi from the closest town and paid the driver $100.00 dollars to help him "escape." Later we heard that he had had a complete mental break down. There are other cases, but Terry, I am concerned for you and your salvation. I still suggest that for awhile at least, you not say the Jesus Prayer, but proceed with your Christian life, or seriously look into Orthodoxy. The Othodox is "inclusive," rather than "exclusive." The concept of the Jesus Prayers is part of the spirituality of the Orthodox Church, just as the idea of speaking in tongues, or Baptism of the Spirit is part of Evangelical Christianity. If I went around speaking in tongues, or claiming to have received Baptism of the Spirit, I would be considered quite mad. I remember when the Charismatic Movement first started in the early 70's - people who had received Baptism by the Spirit became very elitist, saying that those who had not, were somehow a little inferior, saying that the Holy Spirit had not chosen them perhaps out of their personal sin.(Rather strange if all of these people considered themselves to be Saved) This caused a lot of hard feelings in some congregations. I also recall that in about 1995, people began to have religious experiences by laughing hysterically and oinking like pigs and rolling on the floor... The Jesus Prayer does not fit in that realm. I am not condemning or insulting you; I wouold not say these things to you if I had not had experience with people who went over the edge by trying to do spiritual feats which were very much beyond their capacity.I simply believe that you cannot "mix and match" without eventual doing spiritual damage to yourself. This is America, so you have freedom of Religion, but I sincerely beg you not to put yourself in danger. Your salvation does mean something to me, and I will pray for you. God bless and guide you on your path to salvation!

Fr. A.

George Hawkins

21-03-2003, 05:44 AM

Dear Terry,
I would recommend you read Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

With love in Christ
George

Hermit

21-03-2003, 09:00 PM

Thank you for your testimony, Terry. I have similar struggles, since I left Christianity at around the age of 13 for New Age, Hindu, and Buddhist beliefs ... I practiced various types of yoga (hatha, siddha, kundalini, raja etc) over the years. Although I was never initiated into kriya practice, Yogananda was always an enormous influence on my life, I still haven't burned my copy of Autobiography of a Yogi!

A few years ago I was drawn back slowly to the gospels, struggled with the criticisms by atheists and Jesus Seminar types, but finally was convinced by the arguments of The Case For Christ by Strobel. I wandered a bit through Protestantism but eventually came back to the Catholic faith, since it seems to me Jesus established a strong leader (and for other reasons).

The Pope considers Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox Church to be the right and left lungs of the historical Church, an ugly metaphor in English but one I agree with (of course the Orthodox disagree). I continue to be fascinated with Orthodox prayer including the Jesus Prayer, which I don't pray repetitively (not that such prayer contradicts the command against "vain repetition", since it is not vain in the sense of a mantra).

Richard McBride

21-03-2003, 09:12 PM

We are blessed that Father Averky is called to share with us his work in the Holy Spirit. His recent advice parallels the current OT lessons from Thursday and Friday. Excerpts from the Thursday reading begins:

"[i]And it came to pass in the year in which King Ozias died, that I saw the Lord sitting on a high and exalted throne, and the house was full of his glory. And seraphs stood round about him: each one had six wings: and with two they covered their face, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. And one cried to the other, and they said, HOLY, HOLY HOLY, is the LORD OF HOSTS; the whole earth is full of HIS GLORY.

"...And there was sent to me one of the seraphs, and he had in his hand a coal, which he had taken off the altar with tongs: and he touched my mouth, and said, Behold, this has touched thy lips, and will take away thine iniquities, and will purge off thy sins.
And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go to this people?"

Again, we are blessed that the Paraclete brings Father to us, we who deserve none of His love. Too, too often I am the people to whom God was referring:

"Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I shall heal them."

It is truly marvelous that the Paraclete brings all these things together, at this time, for us to ponder and pray over.

Lord,
Give Father Averky many years;
Offer yet again, thy beloved on this list the love and joy of thy Holy Spirit;
and Heal my hard heart; purge the dead works from it that I may live. Amen.

richard

Rebecca

22-03-2003, 12:11 AM

Richard M. Quoted Isiah VI:1-12

"And it came to pass in the year in which King Ozias died, that I saw the Lord sitting on a high and exalted throne, and the house was full of his glory. And seraphs stood round about him: each one had six wings: and with two they covered their face, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. And one cried to the other, and they said, HOLY, HOLY HOLY, is the LORD OF HOSTS; the whole earth is full of HIS GLORY.

"...And there was sent to me one of the seraphs, and he had in his hand a coal, which he had taken off the altar with tongs: and he touched my mouth, and said, Behold, this has touched thy lips, and will take away thine iniquities, and will purge off thy sins. And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go to this people?"

Quote from Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom, one of the silent prayers of priest:

"This has touched my lips; it will take away my iniquities and cleanse my sins"

Terry Justison

22-03-2003, 12:39 AM

Dear Rev. Hieromonk A.

I thank you for your kindness and concern over my spiritual welfare. As an outsider I feel you have been very tolerant of me and my ignorance of spiritual matters. I would request one last response from those who have advised me to discontinue the Jesus Prayer. I would like to know their experience level with the prayer so that I will know I am being instructed by one who is personally knowledgable about prayer of the heart and not one who is just coming at me from an intellectual standpoint. In fact I would like to know if this advice is of God or just a personal opinion. In that name above all names, Jesus, I thank you for your help in this matter. God bless all.....Terry

Fr Averky

22-03-2003, 02:28 AM

Dear in Christ Richard,

God bless you for your extreme kindness to me, but I am not worthy of any praise. I am but a simple monk, not an intellectual or theologian. My poor words are simply from my heart and from my own sufferingm my own doubts and fears, and my spiritual struggle over many years. After all of these years, I continue to learn about myself, the monastic life, but most importantly, what it means to be a Christian. May God bless all of you in this community, you are all in my poor prayers every day.

Robert Sean Clark

22-04-2003, 07:30 PM

Well, I'll try this again. I posted this yesterday, but for some reason, it "unposted", or else I was tricked by this 'puter into thinking I had posted my query. At any rate, I am wondering if anyone knows the Jesus Prayer in Greek. If it is possible, could you put it on the board. If you can't put it in actual Greek, then could you just do it phonetically in English? Thanks and God Bless.

Vicki Dim

22-04-2003, 07:39 PM

Hi Robert..
In greek it is ... Kirie Iisou Hriste, Ie tou Theou, eleison me ton amartolon

Vicki

Robert Sean Clark

22-04-2003, 07:47 PM

Thanks - that was a mighty quick response. Ciao and God Bless.

Sean

Heather Morinelli

09-05-2003, 04:09 AM

Hello--

I wanted to add this post, not because I feel what I have to say is of any real significance, but I do think it's kind of a neat analogy.

I work as a pharmacy technician (yes, one of those grouchy techs that count pills and make you wait an hour for your prescription). There is a product called Icthammol ointment that is a kind of "drawing" salve, that you put on a deeply infected wound to draw the infection to the surface so the wound can heal---

I have just begun to say the Jesus Prayer and in a very modest manner. But even in this beginning stage I see the effects working already, much like this ointment I just described. My sin seems to be coming to the "surface." Even little things I never noticed before I see now clearer.

I have had the idea to start writing some of these things down to take with me when I go to my first confession---would that be a good idea? So far everytime that I have the chance to speak to a priest, I have a multitude of questions beforehand, but at that very moment, I become very forgetful....and end up stuttering like a fool.

I am not a highly educated person (I withdrew from college, but that's a long story), in fact, sometimes I think that when I delivered my first child, that my brains were delivered with him!! I find entertainment in the simplest things now and am taking advice from my 5-year old daughter who told me the other day as I was begging them to behave in Church ---she said "Momma, let not your heawt be twoubled." Sometimes I feel like spiritually, I have much to learn from my children!

But anyway--back to my point--The Jesus Prayer is definitely making a difference in me. Softening my callused heart, bringing out the infection so that it might be healed. I am only now trying to wait patiently for our Baptism in a few months....patience is something I'm not particularly good with.
Please pray for me---heather

Br Paul Zimmerman

09-05-2003, 04:39 AM

Christ is Risen!
Heather,

You are on the right track.

The Jesus Prayer is a very simple prayer, it focus your mind on Jesus and that we are human and we fall short. You find the more you say it, the more your heart and mind will turn to God in prayer. It is a good idea to write these thought down to tell your Spiritual Father/Confessor. Just remember when you go to Confession the time factor, if there are other people waiting to go as well. Some things can just be discuss with your Spiritual Father with out confession. He is there to guide you on your walk.

You have beautiful children, listen to them, Jesus wants us to be just like children, remember that. Loving and innocent. Keep it simple, just like a child.
Patience is difficult for us all, don't let it worry you. Just keep up the Jesus Prayer and Love.

Please pray for me too.
Br Paul

George Hawkins

09-05-2003, 07:28 AM

Hi Heather,

Br. Paul has given you some good advice. It can be a very good idea to make notes as things come to you (I think especially as this will be the first time for you). Everyone is different. I know some people that always take along notes to confession, others that occassionally do. I have sometimes used notes to jog my memory, and when used like that, they have helped, however it is important not to read your notes! Confession must come from the heart. If it helps to have notes, well and good; if you find though that by using notes you end up just 'saying' a confession but without your heart in it, then you should try another way. Of course you can also end up saying confession without your heart being in it when confessing from memory too. The important thing is to be aware. I hope this makes sense!

May God bless you abundently,
the sinner,
George

Fr Averky

09-05-2003, 08:20 AM

Dear Heather

I will be contacting your privately, but let me caution you publicly that if you have not been received into the Orthodox Church as of yet, proceed with cautiion in regards to the Jesus prayer. If you have been following the threads on various discussions, yiu will see how there is always a certain amount of tension between converts and the "ethnic' establishment. People get angry with me when I say that we have to be humble and waait, but it really is ther truth.

The Jesus Prayer, like all other aspects of Orthodoxy, cannot be experienced to its fullest until one has joined himself unto Christ in the Orthodox Church. I would not play in a major philharmonic orchestra if I had no knowledge or background or training, say, in the violin. Saying the Jesus Prayer, reading the Philokalia, all these should come in time. I am well aware that my making this statement might cause others to be upset with me, again calling me "arrogant," but I am firm in my stand,and it comes from many years in the Church and in the monastic life, not just my opinion.

Brt. Paul is quite correct when he tells you about your first confession. In our Church, it is considered quite important to make a confession of one's entire life before being received into the Church. This is not going to take fifteen minutes, and most certainly must be made at a time when just you and your pastor will be present in the church.

In another thread, you ask my "blessing" to start to study Greek, - my dear lady, it is not my place to give a blessing to do or not do anything. I am but a simple hieromonk, and I have no such authority. When I post my feelings or give suggestions on this forum, for that is all that I can do, it is with no spiritual authority whatsoever, but my ideas and suggestion are given in a pastoral manner, acted upon from my experience as a monk and priest. In this sense, I have that tiny bit of "authority," only insofar that I am not a new convert, I have been Orthodox for 34 years and in the monastic life for 28, and a priest for 20 years. I speak out of long experience, having faced so many of these issues for years, I can only share with you what I know. Whoever will be your parish priest will be your Spiritual Father, unless you you should at some point wish another, and that can be done only with the knowledge and blessing of your pastor. Sometimes people will have a spiritual father who ends up causing more harm than good, for he will not aalways know all the circumstances of a person in regards to his or her relationship to that person's priest or parish.

All I can say is that we are "Rational Sheep" of Christ, and I do not think that you need a "blessing" to study any language. People who are new to Orthodoxy should not let themselves to be swept away by the pretensions of being desirous of making their priest or some monk into some sort of Guru. We have one woman near the monastery, who last year telephoned one of the spiritual fathers of our monastery six times in an hour to ask his "blessing" to put her cheesecake in the oven. He was so annoyed with her for disturbing everybody, who had to run all over to find him, that he said he wanted to tell her to put here head in the oven! Be patient and sensible, and I will talk to you privately. God bless.

Hieromonk Averky

John Kapetan

09-05-2003, 06:58 PM

Dear Heather or anyone that may find this of help:

I remember reading in ‘The Way of A Pilgrim/The Pilgrim Continues His Way’ (one of the most cherished books on my bookshelf, besides Scripture). If you have read this book, you probably remember the section. If not, the book is a true Spiritual classic. It is an easy read with terrific insights. I hope this message helps in your struggle.

When the Pilgrim was traveling throughout Russia, he met up with, I believe, a priest monk who gave him insights into confession. The Pilgrim had written down everything he could remember for his confession, but the Father confessor gave him a note to read first.

That note he gave him regarded confession that leads to humility. I think the depth and insight of this is truly remarkable. Of course, I've had trouble always keeping this in my heart, but I think it is a good place to start. I hope this helps.

Also, I noticed what Fr. Averky had said about caution. Make sure with our teachers, instructors, monastic brethren that this is ok.

I'm going to try and upload the piece on to the server. I’m not sure how that will work, and where to be able on the server to get it. It is a MS Word 2000 document. If you can’t access that, I can upload a plain text rendition.

In Christ,

John K

Owen Jones

09-05-2003, 07:34 PM

John,

I think one point worth mentioning is that the Pilgrim struck out on his own to become a parapetetic pilgrim because he found parish preaching in particular and parish life in general to be pretty thin gruel. (it's probably a metaphoric journey, written not by a rustic but by a very well-educated monk who never left his cell -- but it's the classic problem: how do you write about a spiritual pilgrimage in a compelling way?) But he struck out on his own and relied on God to place people in his path. I think sometimes we fail to take some of the spiritual risks that we should be taking for fear of doing it wrong. Give me a seeker who makes mistakes vs. complacency.

John Kapetan

09-05-2003, 09:39 PM

Owen:

Thanks for adding that, good point.

John K

Lawrence

09-05-2003, 11:19 PM

Isn't all the warning of the Jesus Prayer about applying mechanical means to it, such as corresponding it with the breath?

Both Theophan the Recluse and Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov warn of the mechanical means, adding also that they are unnecessary, and say to simply pay attention to the words and your spiritual condition and allow Grace to take part.

Heather Morinelli

09-05-2003, 11:53 PM

Thank you everyone for your responses to my post--i do not post on here claiming to know anything--as I most certainly do NOT know anything. Any advice given to me will most assuredly be taken to heart.

John--That was actually one of the first books that I read after learning about the Orthodox Church--I've read it again since then--I always seem to get more and more out of a book by reading it several times!

Owen--IT's funny that you mention the fear of making mistakes....because all through my life mistakes are all I ever seem to make. I constantly find myself flat on my face. I'm always scared of making a decision and it turning on me and back-firing.

Fr Averky, I'm embarrased that I gave you a bad first impression of me. Please accept my apology. I'm not looking for a "guru", only a kind and understanding group of people that will listen to my insignificant thoughts here and there--and possibly sometimes search for some good advice and let me know what would or wouldn't be a good idea sometimes....I'm just very sad Fr Averky, because I don't really have a Father confessor or the regular parish priest or spiritual leader in my parish that everyone else seems to have. So at the times when my doubts and failings and various trials as the head of my household start to bear down on me---at those moments when I feel so completely helpless and lost, it might be of some comfort to know that I can (after praying to God first, of course) come and sit at my computer and type out a few lines to someone, and they will hear me and relate to me and most of all pray for me. This is what I'm looking for--someone who can understand. Someone who's further along this road than I am, who can offer me support when I am most weak---which is right now. I'm crying now as I'm writing this because I am so extremely lonely and frustrated. Sometimes even my prayer doesn't seem right---but that it just comes out of my mouth and lands on the floor in front of me. So that is why I earnestly beg you, because I know you spend much more time than I do in prayer, that you could please pray for me and my little family. Knowing that you will be praying for me is enough for me to feel comforted. That there are actually people who are struggling along with me and that at any given moment we all might be praying together.

Thank you so much Father Averky for taking the time to read and more importantly to respond to my silly postings--I am very much looking forward to hearing from you. I thought about you very often today.

Thank you all again, and you all are in my prayers tonight--
----heather

Fr Averky

10-05-2003, 03:27 AM

Dear Heather, CHRIST IS RISEN!

Pleae be assured and be assured again that you in no way made a bad impression on me. I understand what you are going through, and in my last post was only trying to tell you that all of us converts experience spiritual loneliness. I think that you will find much comfort, as have I, right in this community.

Owen's answer was very good in that it indicated, that so often we have to simply keep on going relying upon God's mercy. As Owen so very well puts it, "he(the pilgrim)struck out on his own,and relied on God to place people in his path." When you logged onto Monachos, what Owen said happened to the Pilgrim, happened to you, for here you will find people whom you will find to have many answers that you seek.

Do not fret or allow yourself to become discouraged, for as we know, Christ is aware of every hair on our heads, and therefore He sees and knows what is in our hearts, and sends us His love and Divine Grace to help us and save us. When you do become a member of the Church, things will fall more and more into place. Remember, the Dark Evil One does not want you to cling unto Christ. He wants you to feel alone a dsicouraged, anhd he wants yoiu to give up.

But you have an Ally whom never loses, and you have so many friends among the saints and now, in this little community, friends here on earth, who want only to see you save yourself. Just be patient, and all will be well.

I was not getting after you for looking for a Guru, but I was firmly cautioning you about not getting intto any situation above your head spiritually. Even if you are not close physically to your future pastor, try to establish a "working" relationship whereby you can speak to him on a regular basis, either by phone or in person. If not, then perhaps on line or by fax. If this is difficult for him as well, perhaps he will recommend a priest that he knows wo will be able to help you. We are never left un aided by our Saviour. Please know that most ceertainly I am praying for you, and I call upon all the members of the Monachos community pray for you as well. For the time being, until you are situated in your parish, in my humility, I will be happy to have you contact me as often as you need until you are in the Church and have your Spiritual Father. I again repeat, that I have no such blessing to be an "on-line" spiritual father, but as a Christian, a priest and a monk, I can and will offer whatever comfort and practical advise I can.

For all of us, it is important to never forget that "God is with us," and that we are never alone. Heather, soon you will put on Christ, and you will be part of the Body of Christ. This does not mean that by somne "magic" your life will become a happy ending fairy tale, but that you will have to begin to struggle in earnest towards your salvation -you will have to take up your cross and follow Christ. But there will be something new about you - you will have been given Grace, and the help of God and Our Saviour, the Most Pure Mother of God and the Saints in a particular manner. Many time, in many posts, yoiu will hear these words from me, "Be patient, be humble, and pray," and if you can do these things with all your heart, Heather, you will soon realize that you are not alone . God bless, and please, pray for me.

Hieromonk Averky

Effie Ganatsios

10-05-2003, 06:15 AM

Thanks John for posting the excerpt from The Way of the Pilgrim. I've read this book in Greek but I haven't been able to obtain a copy in English yet.

Our discussion about which is the "right" language is relevant here as well. I can't understand something properly if I don't read it in English - "understand" is not the right word. I should say feel deeply or even experience. I'm looking forward to the time when I'll be able to read this book in English.

I also say the Jesus Prayer with my prayer rope. I breathe in with Lord Jesus Christ, and then breathe out with the Eleison Imon (Have Mercy on me). As you can see my two languages are thoroughly mixed in all things. In my experience it's important not just to recite the words but to actually mean them while you are saying them. There is nothing magical about The Jesus Prayer but I have read that those few words are what our faith is all about.

I have also read that the danger with the breathing lies in the fact that some enthusiasts were overdoing the number of times they said the Jesus Prayer, breathing deeply each time and then experiencing a physical reaction.

The above is my own personal experience and is humbly offered as an account and not as any kind of guideline to anyone else.

Effie

John Kapetan

10-05-2003, 11:13 PM

Your welcome, Effie;

But the computer did all of the work, not me. I hope that it was helpful to other list members as well. I can't remember where I 'stole' that piece from, but it must have been a pretty good web site.

Bringing things back to the language issue. I totally agree with you that one needs to understand with their heart and mind. I know that a lot of members have posted that the original Greek and Slavonic are liturgically beautiful. No arguments from me on that point. In fact I think the Slavic people furthered Orthodoxy by taking their talent to greater heights. I know that it is just my opinion, but I think that when I first heard the liturgy in Slavonic, I wished us Greeks could do the same. Not be quite so monotonous, and actually have better singing and chanting. But that is only my opinion.

nb. Sorry to offend any Greek chanters or choir members on the list.

I wish that I had the resources to switch between English and Greek like you can. I also assume that a lot of people wish that also. But the fact remains that a lot of us are not bi-lingual. Sure, you could take classes in Ancient Koine Greek and really learn the language. I would rather be spending my time learning things that the fathers have prescribed for daily living in Christ. Sure learning Greek would help, but I was born in this country (USA), my kid and all of my nieces and nephews were born here as well.

I also realize that according to many of the church fathers, the demons hear the words, and tremble anyway. So I think as Orthodox, we are caught between a rock and a hard place. There is no reason why English-speaking churches could not have made the English liturgy prettier than or at least as pretty as the Greek or Slavonic.

Granted, some words, don't translate very well, but we should make our best effort to translate properly. It seems that if we were able to understand, many of our faithful would not be like the seed that fell by the wayside when they hear the word.

If you have any problems getting the English translation to the Pilgrim, drop me a line or probably anyone on the list could point you in the right direction to order it. Thanks for giving me a chance to vent my language feelings to the group.

In Christ,

John K

Owen Jones

11-05-2003, 02:33 AM

Dear John

The problem is pretty obvious. Orthodoxy is being introduced into the West and into English during a phase of cultural and language decadence.

John Kapetan

11-05-2003, 02:54 AM

Dear Owen:

Sounds like a great excuse if only I could understand what it meant. But still not a solid reason for the Church with fathers such as Cyril and Methodius, Innocent of Alaska, and John of San Francisco to name a few.
In Christ,

John K

Fr Averky

11-05-2003, 03:34 AM

Hello everybody! CHRIST IS RISEN!

I am on my way to church, so will brief.(ha ha) I have lost this thread -are we talking about how we should say the Jesus Prayer, or are we discussing the language it should be said in?

From my own experience, the Jesus Prayer should be said only with the blessing and under the guidance of one's spiritual father. St. Ignatius Briachaninov goes so far to to forbid lay people from saying it all, but this is in the context of spiritual decline in Russia, among along all levels of society, even the monastics during his lifetime The Jesus Prayer is a spiritual "art," and must be said with love, trepidation, and a good idea of what one is doing. In Greek spiritual practice, it is very common for lay people to say the prayer, so here we have some of those "ethnic" differences of which we have been speaking.

Personally, I have always said my prayer rope in English -absuloutely I believe that it needs be said in the language of the person saying it. Anything we do personally in our Orthodoxy, I firmly believe, should be in our own language. St. Ignatius Briachaninov says that one -one hundred knot prayer rope should take about one hour. The aspect of breathing comes only in time. As with all prayer, first it should be said audibly, but in a soft voice, then more quietly until it is said silently, then, in time, one will feel it quietly moving into the heart, and then, only then will one, in concert with his heart and soul pray and breathe in that rythmn of which the Fathers speak. This is not accomplished in a week or a month, but over time, and not just now and again, but should be part of one's fixed prayer life. I was taught to sit on a low stool or bench, with my back to the wall, facing my icons, with only the light of the candles and icon lamp - this quietude very much helps put one in the disposition to be with God and to speak to Him and only Him. Like all things of value and which have a deep spiritual aspect to them, it must be approaced with the fear of God.

The Jesus prayer, when not being said "formally," can be said during the day when we are being tempted, are angry or feel lonely. If we find ourselves distracted during Divine Services, we can say the prayer of the heart so at least we are praying -in frustrating circumstances, like being stuck in traffic or a long line at the bank, or sitting a doctor's office waiting for good or bad news -all of these are opportunities to tutn our hearts to prayer rather than to be upset. Of the greatest importance is that we try to concentrate when we say the Prayer, for by it we gain spiritually, and we find ourselves experiencing inner peace.

Fr. Averky

John Kapetan

11-05-2003, 05:08 AM

Father Averky, Indeed He is Risen:

Sorry for taking the discussion way off the track with my language complaints, I believe that I saw a thread somewhere already discussing the language problems. But thanks for being there to extend an arm and bring us back on track again. My question would be do you feel as did St. Ignatius Briachaninov (it doesn't seem like it by viewing your post) that us lay men should also refrain from the practice since we don't have the spiritual resources that you monastics possess? Or proceed only with extreme caution under direction. And what does one do if the spiritual father is not advanced in the prayer.

In Christ,

John K

Fr Averky

11-05-2003, 09:06 AM

Dear in Christ, John,

Your question if often posed and very hard to answer. There are very few people in the Orthodox world who truly have the practice of the Jesus Prayer. Rememeber that the world of the Way of the Pilgrim is long gone, and we live in only its dimmest shadows.

However, let us not despair or give up hope, but proceed with caution, fear and trembling. I would suggest that the first thing anyone who desiress to say the Jesus Prayer should do is to discuss it with his or her parish priest. Most likely, the priest might say that he is not a monastic, or that he is not one who himself who says it - if he does, Glory be to God. I have little contact with parish priests of other churches beyond my own, so I have no idea what they do or do not know. A any rate, humbly ask them if they would give you a blessing to sasy the prayer, if they do, then do so with humility and patience. Do not try to be a great ascetic, or fast or stay up all night beyond your capacity: live your life normally, keeping the fasts of the Church, and setting aside time each day when you can sit quietly, without distraction, and pray. I remember years ago having met a monk who used to sit in front of his large color television, watching the "soaps," drinking a six pack of beer, with a large, glittering glass rayer rope in his hand -he would tell me what a great "ascetic," he was. I was but a young monk, and for once, said nothing. On the other hand, I have met one overly-zealous woman who said the Prayer so rapidly and with so little thought of what she was doing that in time, she went into a mental frenzy, became manic and ended in a local mental ward.

Thus, we must approach the Prayer of the heart as we do all spiritual practises, with "the fear and love of God, and must slowly mov along the Royal Middle path of moderation. For the average Orthodx Christian it is required that we say our morning and evening prayers, keep thefour major Fasts of the Church, fast every Wednesday and Friday except during those periods which are termed as "fast free," take time for spiritual reading a minimum of fifteen minutes to a half an hour a day, and go to confession and communion as frequently as our spiritual father permits. This is quite a bit just as it is, and it is really the minimum requirement to live a pious Orthodox Christian life. The Jesus Prayer can best be added after we have said our night prayers and done some spiritual reading, for the soul and heart will be more inclined to the Prayer.

So many people tell me that they are just "too tired" to do all of this, especially at night. I always suggest to people (and I am not talking to people with small children) that they start to say their evening prayers earlier - like right after their evening meal. If a person does so, they will be more mindful of what they might watch on TV, they will be more at peace and less stressful, and will sleeep better.

Forgive my long answer, John, but there is no simple one. All that I have said is but a suggestion or a guidline -this you must work out with your own priest. Perhaps he will recommend a priest or monk to you. God help you! And, please pray for me.

In Christ,

Father Averky

Owen Jones

11-05-2003, 01:58 PM

John,

It's not an excuse, it's an explanation as to why we don't have high quality English translations.

dianne marie debs

11-05-2003, 10:20 PM

CHRIST IS RISEN!
Dear Father Averky,
I pray your health has improved and as usual we are blessed by your words.

The Jesus Prayer is a way of life in my opinion. This simple little prayer has saved me from many sins. We are all people, living on this earth, but through Jesus we can turn our lives around to greatness.

One of our priests here in Lebanon gave me a reason for having alot of children. He told me he was always ecstatic when someone he knows has a baby( even through we can say the world is over populated). Ecstatic, because this little baby now can have a chance to know Jesus.

It is through the Jesus Prayer that we begin our way to truely knowing Jesus.
The traffic in Beirut is overbearing.. it is only through this prayer that I am able to handle hours of sitting in the car without batting an eye.
Many women in our parish group talk alot or make comments, etc. and many people look at me with awe because I nearly never answer back to anyone. It is through this prayer I can do this.
This list is endless.

We live on earth but we live here with the Holy Spirit in our hearts. This prayer starts there in our hearts and it brings us closer and closer to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Father A. I admit that even as a born and raised and practicing Orthodox, there are many times when I fall, and I feel spiritual loneliness. In fact my last confession was because of this...
spiritual loneliness. The road to salvation is a long and difficult one and it is only through the grace of God ,we can ever be successful.

Our Lord gave us three wonderful tools to help...
prayer,fasting, and knowing the scriptures.
I will prayer for all of us that we are able to use these tools to help us live and do as Our Lord sees fit for us. I humblely ask the members of this community to pray for my family.

Christ is Risen....Halleluja

Dianne

Terry Justison

12-05-2003, 03:18 PM

I am writing this to those who have been drawn to the Jesus Prayer, but are concerned that it is only for monks and priests and those who are more spiritually advanced. I was such a person (a common lay person)when I began practicing the Jesus Prayer with my only guide being the book “The Way of a Pilgrim and the Pilgrim Continues His Way". I really believe that the this book, the Bible, and the Holy Ghost as a guide are all one needs. I believe that those who are being drawn to the Jesus prayer will receive God's guidance especially if they fervently pray for it. In the New Testament in many places we are admonished to "pray without ceasing". Now it doesn't qualify this command to say that only monks and priests and those who are spiritually advanced should do this, but that everyone should constantly keep the name of the Lord in remembrance.

I believe that there are many who will try to thwart those who are called to this prayer. Perhaps some in this very discussion community.

The "Way of a Pilgrim" is an outreach to common man making this technique available to all. There are many examples in the book of the benefit to simple peasants who were totally ignorant of the Lord. At the same time there are many revelations which are pertinent to the more spiritually advanced. The version of "The Way of a Pilgrim" translated by Helen Bacovcin (ISBN 0-385-46814-8) has an excellent appendix containing directives of the early church fathers on prayer of the heart.

I have read this book many times, and each time I gather new insight into the Jesus Prayer. I can vouch for the fact that the Jesus Prayer will eventually lead to prayer of the heart. There is no mistaking prayer of the heart. There is this warmth and glow which occurs in the heart which is unmistakable. Sometimes when the prayer is not active this same identical feeling of warmth and joy will self activate rising up in the heart when one is involved in worldly tasks bidding you to start the prayer and come within. I say this not out of personal pride, but in obedience to my Lord as an encouragement to those of you like me who are struggling in the world and looking for a spiritual refuge to weather out life's storms.

As to falling into delusion and madness. My experience has been that as I am tempted and let sin into my life (and this happens to all men - even monks) I begin to lose the presence of God. The warmth and glow in my heart recedes. Much effort is required to attain the peace that the prayer provides. But if I repent of my sins and pray for guidance the Holy Ghost will show me my error and sin and I will begin to move forward in prayer again. The warmth and glow in the heart will return and my mood will return to joy and happiness in Lord Jesus.

I pray that my humble message will be of help to those intended and that I have not offended any of the representatives of your great church. For we are all brothers in Jesus.

In closing I pray for God's blessings and guidance, especially on those who do not have access to a physical spiritual guide that will encourage them in this most excellent practice, and to all those who seek to know Jesus through the Jesus Prayer and Prayer of the Heart.......Terry

Moses Anthony

13-05-2003, 07:07 AM

Hello All,
A question has come to mind, in view of the current discussion on the Jesus Prayer, The Prayer of the Heart. If there's such controversy about the practicing the PRAYER by either novices or wise asectics, why not encourage faithful Orthodox belivers to first become true athletics of regular prayer. How many of the Church Fathers do you think struggled in the arena of prayer against "...spiritual wickedness in high places", prior to becoming quiet enough to begin saying "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God; have mercy on me the sinner".
The Psalmist wrote to us -not just in times of confusion, persecution and anxiety- "...pour out your hearts to God, for He is a refuge for us." Being still enough to hear whenever God speaks to us, by whatever means. Anxiety about breaths, phrasing and repetitions is still anxiety.
I have never been great at praying, either as a Protestant or an Orthodox, but it does seem to be applicable at this point, to at the very least to pray regularly and let the Jesus Prayer come at its own time.
As I said, it is a thought.

the unworthy servant

Fr Averky

13-05-2003, 10:44 AM

Dear James, CHRIST IS RISEN!

I thank you for your very good observation, and It was said much better than I coud have. We once had a small monastery in our Church whose founder felt that people should begin to say the Jesus Prayer as an introduction to Orthodoxy. He became so self - assured that he had the Prayer, that once at a clergy conference, in the presence of his ruling bishop who by that time had been a monk for over fifty years, he announced, "I think that is time that I began to teach all of you about the Jesus Prayer." At this, the bishop turned to his secretary and said, "As if we had never heard of it." His fellow priests, most of whom had been Orthodx since birth (this monk was a convert from a non-Christian religion) were amazed, but mostly amused and he lost a lot of repect at that meeting.

Over a number of years, this monk had built up a small rural parish of about fifty people and had four or five monastics with him. Sad to say, he began to be puffed up with pride, and began calling other priests and telling them how to solve problems, in some cases, which they did not even have. He always spoke of how soon he would move into the woods and become a silent ascetic, but very often left his monastery, sometimes for weeks at a time, without the bishop's knowledge or blessing. By the rules of our Church, no priest can be gone from his parish or place of assignment for more than three days without an oficial blessing.

I spent some time at his monastery, and noticed all kinds of irregularities in the services, in his teaching methods, in his allowing non-Orthodox to read the Hours before Liturgy and so on. When I brought him to his attention, he rather avoided the issues and justified his actions. Later on he did something that he considered to be a joke, but there were those who were scandalized, and when the bishop brought it to his attention, he was rude and defensive. In time, sorrowfuly, the bishop was forced to suspend him. We had been friendly, and I told him that he now had to humbly submit to the bishop, to repent, and to follow the usual guidelines for monastic institutions in our Church. He was told by other monastics and priests that his means of teaching the Jesus Prayer to non-Orthodox was proving to be of no great value, but he insisted that he knew what he was doing. He had a history of always wanting to rule over others, and expected even priests who went to confession to him, to be slavishly obedient to him, but he would obey no one. He became very angry with the bishop, and abruptly left our Church. He had long been friendly with other Churches, and was sure that he would be considered a great prize - no one would take him, for he had earned the reputaton of being unwilling to submit to authority, and after two years without the Mysteries, people began to leave him, and in the end, virtually everyone had left, and not on pleasant terms. He was left with a few monastics and shattered dreams. Had he been humble and obedient, the story might have been different. I personally had careed for him but he came to hate me, when I insisted that he submit to the will of Church authorities For many years before he came to our Church, he had belonged to a stange group of "monks" who call themselves orthodox, and who have moved all over the country, usually pursued by the law.

The Prayer of the Heart must be said with humility and with the fear of God, and under the guidance of a spiritual father, or at least with the knowledge and blessing of one's parish priest. As to non-Orthodox, that is not my business or concern, but I can only adjure my fellow Orthodox Christians to be obedient to the Church. As James says, it is better to say well the prayers that we should as Orthodox Christians, which will then give us a strong base in prayer - before we move on to the Prayer of the Heart. I am always amazed by people who wish to instruct, when they themselves are unwilling to be taught. This monk is a perfect example of doing something out of pride and self-will, instead of being done with humility and with a blessing. I have nothing against Orthodox lay people saying the Jesus Prayer, but like all things in the Christian life, it needs be under guidance and with humility and obedience. As Orthodox Chrsitians we must keep in mind the fact that all the rules of the Church are for everyone - not just monastics and priests. Fasting, prayers, church attendance, personal belief -all of these are part of our lives as Orthodox Christians, and none of us are permitted to make up our own rules and do what we wish. We have to answer to God for all our actions as Orthodox Christians, and in respect to such matters concerning the prayers of the Church, in no way are we to listen the opinions of those who are not part of the Church. I have the utmost respect for the rights of other people's religious expressions, such as Catholic rosary, and the personal devotional prayers of all others religions of the world, but they are for their adherents to say, and not for us as Orthodox. The Orthodox Church does not teach that non-Orthodox Christians have no hope for salvation, for God knows the heart of every man and will judeg him accordingly, but if an Orthodox Christian leaves the Orthodox Church and its practises, he is lost.

Father Averky

john whitehead

13-05-2003, 11:04 AM

Some months ago I started using the Jesus Prayer I have found strength, spiritual growth and an increased closeness to the Lord since that time and would like to share experiences with others who have discovered a new dimension as a result of praying in this way.

I am not Orthodox: my spiritual strength is derived from New Monasticism as expressed by the Northumbria Community whose mother house is Nether Springs at Hetton Hall in Northumbria, England. The Community Rule is one of "Availability and Vulnerability." This is a dispersed community, with members from across the world. It is based on a blend of Celtic Christianity with Desert Monasticism.

I was introduced to the prayer by a spiritual mentor while on retreat last year. He suggested I read The Power of the Name, by Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia and The Jesus Prayer by Simon Barrington Ward which were both very helpful . As I approached the works I was filled with eager anticipation as I just sensed that I was on to something big in its implications yet so small in itself, condensing to 7 words or less.It's such early days yet but the "coincidences" that have happened in the meantime have been staggering.

I'm aware that to develop I need continued guidance - to that end I'm going to spend a day on retreat at the Anglian Community of the Resurrection later this month, but I just want to read about the experiences of others and share mine and receive ongoing guidance from those with greater maturity and experience than I.

John

Beryl Wells Hamilton

13-05-2003, 03:47 PM

Dear John,

Christ is risen!

I have been in touch with many of the people from the Northumbria Community over the years, and was glad to see your connection with them.
Your post has drawn me out of lurk mode. (Have we been in contact before, John? Your name is very familiar.)

The Northumbria Community led me to the early Celtic Church, which in turn led me (nearly five years ago)to the Celtic Christianity internet discussion list, which in turn led me to the Orthodox Church. My husband and I were joined to the Orthodox Church through chrismation four years ago. We live in the countryside in Wisconsin, USA.

Just some thoughts about the Jesus Prayer.

As a Protestant, I had never heard of the Jesus Prayer, but I prayed as deeply and fervently as my heart could bear it without breaking. Had I tried to use the Jesus Prayer back then, I believe that the Holy Spirit would have honored my desire to draw near to God's heart as I prayed it, and God would have blessed my poor intentions. The Holy Spirit gives grace to all who seek Him, as meets us where we are, as far as we are able to bear Him.

Perhaps this is a key to our discussion. "As far as we are able to bear it." As we draw nearer to Him in faith and love, He increases our ability to bear the unfathomable greatness of His presence. "I will run the way of Your commandments, for You will enlarge my heart" (Ps. 118:32).

For the Orthodox Christian, our heart, more as one Body than as separate individuals, is enlarged through our worship; that is, He enlarges our heart as we become more and more a part of Him through our participation in His Body and His Blood in the Eucharist, and through a lifetime of faithfulness as we grow into Him. As our heart is enlarged, and as we draw near to Him, our prayer life deepens. This communion of love is the base for all of our prayer, whether corporate or individual.

As I live my busy life, I often imagine a monk in his cell repeating the Jesus Prayer, asking that our "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God," would have mercy on *him,* with tears running down his cheeks, and I am strengthened, because I know he is praying not only for mercy for himself, but also in a sense, for me, and for all of us. His humility unites him to all men everywhere, and thus his prayer becomes a timeless cry for mercy for all mankind.

As far as saying the Jesus Prayer, it's very true that a person should have spiritual guidance. Everyone is subject to spiritual pride, and anything we do where we attempt to reach down into the depth of the soul can puff us up rather than flatten us. As I remember, for this very reason, the Northumbria Community warns people to stay in close contact with a spritual leader whenever they retreat into a cell or a "spiritual closet," so to speak, in order to pray.

Just as the Holy Spirit meets us where we are, I think maybe the Jesus Prayer meets us where we are, too. Our salvation is a process of growing into the knowledge and experience of God, and it seems to me that prayer follows the same pattern.

Perhaps it is spoken with the lips, said in rhythm with a prayer rope, while sitting in front of icons on a low stool. Or, perhaps we repeat it in rhythm with our windshield wipers while driving down the road on a rainy day. Or, maybe a mother whispers it in rhythm with her baby's soft and sleepy breathing. Perhaps it is practiced with the mind paying close attention to every word. Maybe we say it to keep our hearts stayed on Him rather than on ourselves when temptations flood in. Maybe we yell it out when a careless driver comes charging through a stopsign. Maybe we repeat it over and over inwardly when we are being pummeled by the assaults that come from living in a flesh-obsessed world. Maybe it remains in the mind, or maybe it at last "drops down" into the *nous*, becoming as natural to the soul as beating is to the heart.

There is no one formula for saying the Jesus Prayer. The prayer is a tool, a gift of grace, which helps salvation work in our hearts, so that we may grow into knowledge of God. It seems to me that it would be effective on as many different levels as there are people who say it with humble and submissive hearts, as far as they are able to bear it.

Hope this post isn't too long. It's a joy to be here with all of you!

With love in Christ,

Beryl Hamilton

P.S. Hi, Matthew! Hi, Elizabeth!

Terry Justison

14-05-2003, 12:36 AM

From the “Philokalia on Prayer of the Heart” in the section Instructions to Hesychasts by St. Gregory of Sinai.........”Those who have acquired the action of Grace by active life, through long years of much labour, teach others in the same way as they have themselves learned. They do not believe those who say of themselves, like St. Isaac, that, by the mercy of God, and through warmth of faith, they have reached this attainment in a short time: blinded by ignorance and self-esteem they censure such people and assure others that if something happens differently from their own experience, it is prelest and not an act of grace. They do not know that ‘It is an easy thing in the sight of the lord on the sudden to make a poor man rich' (Ecclus. XI. 21). The Apostle also reproves the disciples of his day, who knew not grace, saying: ‘Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?' (2 Cor. XIII. 5), that is, men who make no progress, through laziness. This is why such people, through unbelief and arrogance, do not accept (do not recognise as true) the miraculous effects of prayer produced in some by the action of the Holy Spirit.”

After the response to my last message I had decided to leave the Monachos Discussion Boards alone. But, then I got to reading the Philokalia because of questions and doubts which arose in me as a result of your replies. I didn’t go looking for this quote I just happened to start reading this section a little while ago. Peace and love to all. I am going to take my unorthodox Protestant soul back where it belongs and leave your discussion group in peace......Terry

Fr Averky

14-05-2003, 09:42 AM

Dear Beryl, CHRIST IS RISEN!

Your paragraph starting with "Perhaps it is spoken with the lips..." is so very lovely Thank you. While I have said firmly that we Orthodox need to be under guidance, I mostly mean that it is a good idea to start any good thing with the blessing of our spiritual father, and thus receive the blessing of the Church. For instance, when a priest calls his bishop on the telephone, first he asks the bishop's blessing - this brings God's blessing upon the converstion that will take place. So too should a layman ask his parish priest's blessing when he calls him on the phone. It is always a good idea to ask and to receive God's blessing whenever we want to begin any spiritual excercise. Our spiritual father should know, for he stands responsible before God for our actions, and therefore our soul. I would think that it would be a very rare case in which a priest would refuse his spiritual child's desire to say such a wonderful prayer. When we do things on our own,and without a blessing, even though it might seemingly be good, it can sometimes blow up in our faces.

Let me tell you a monastic story to illustrate my point:

Many years ago in Greece, there was an old Elder and his novice. The two men were accustomed to walk along a somewhat difficult path from their tiny skete to a larger monastery, and the old man would sit down on a log at about the half-way point to rest. Once, when the old man had a bad cold, the novice snuck out and built a little house and placed in it a comfortable chair and a cot upon which his beloved elder could take a nap or rest when they came to that point in their journey. A week or so later they went on their walk and they came upon the novice's "surprize" gift. The Elder was quiet for a few minutes, and then turned to his student and said, "My son, do you have matches with you?" When the young man replied that he did, the elder then said to him, "Please set the house on fire." Very upset, but obedient, the boy set the little building on fire. As the flames rose up, a large and very poisonous snake came slithering out from under the cot. "You see, said the old man - you thought you were doing something good, but what you did was out of self-will, and without God's blessing. Just think, your self-will almost caused me to die in a most terrible manner!" The novice humbly prostrated before his Abba and asked for forgiveness, which was lovingly and freely given, and the two men went on their way, their hearts filled with gladness for the lesson learned, and God's mercy.

My beloved Brothers and Sisters in Christ! We live in dangerous times, when people think that just because they have read a book or two, or because they have an opinion about something that it is the "Truth." Jesus Christ is the Truth, and His Truth is shown in the Holy Scriptures, the Sacred canons, - the Orthodox Church. WE as Orthodox Christians are bound by her authority as given by Jesus Christ. I myself have no authority, but what I tell you is what the Orthodox Church teaches. There are those who have taken me to task, thinking that I am arrogant and proud in my words, but , not just as a monk, but as an Orthodox Christian, I must rely on the Teaching Authority of the Councils, Canons and the Sayings of the Holy Fathers of the Church. The Holy Spirit acts as He will, and glory be to God if there are those who have learned about the Jesus Prayer - but the bottom line is that it is a great prayer of Holy Orthodoxy. Some have said that it is not just for monks and priests alone, or perhaps even Orthodox - I can say no other - it is best said and has its greatest value when said with the blessing of an Orthodox Spiritual Father. May God grant that those who are not in the bosom of the Holy Orthodox Church will be moved by the Holy Spirit to take that important step to look into their hearts and ask for God's guidance in this matter. My words are not harsh, but said with the greatest love and concern.

Father Averky

John Kapetan

15-05-2003, 06:08 AM

Dear list:

My question is actually directed to Fr. Averky, but anyone please jump in. Also, I'm not really sure if the question belongs here, but discussion on this thread sparked it.

The question arose in my mind when Father had mentioned that when one is to embark on the practice of the Jesus Prayer, it should be done with the blessings of his/her spiritual father.

This I will ask of him. The question is this:
When we go up for antidoron or for annointing with holy oil after the benediction of the service, should we really be asking his blessing. And what should we say? I've gotten so used to the Father how's it going, and Johnny how you feeling, that the reception of a blessing from him is forgotten.

In Christ,

John K

Fr Averky

15-05-2003, 08:06 AM

Dear John,

It is a little hard for me to answer your question. I belong to the Russian Orthodox Church, which as always been more formal and conservative.

In my church, whenever a lay person encounters his priest, even in public, he asks the priest's blessing. He cups his hands, and the priest makes the sign of the cross over him and places his right hand into those of the faithful, who then kisses it. After the Divine Liturgy, it is the Russian custom for the priest to hold a blessing cross in his left hand, hand the antidoron to the faithful with his right hand, which the aithful kis as they take it from him. When a layman telephones his priest, as soon as the priest says, "Hello," the lay person says something like, "Hello, Father, Father bless!" the priest says, "God bless you," and the converstaion proceeds. All of this is not some courtesy or a bit of antiquity - nor is it some sort of groveling before the priest. It is asking God's blessing from His holy priest, and is a sign of respect for the priesthood.

Each church has its own way of doing things, so all I can tell you is to do it according to the custom in which you have been raised. If your priest is more comfortable or more accustomed to a hand shake, then that is the way to show him respect. The beauty of Orthodoxy is that each local church has its own customs, and each is different, never wrong.

sincereley,

Father Averky

Loretta

17-05-2003, 12:57 AM

Greetings to All,

I've been rereading Christ Is In Our Midst by Father John and have come across some interesting points in regards to The Jesus Prayer and spiritual advisors that I would like to share.

Father John says:
"It is true that one should not reveal one's inner state even to a confessor if he is not living the same kind of inner life. St. Anthony the Great writes: If you speak about spiritual matters to one who is not spiritual, it will seem ridiculous to him."

and

"St. Peter the Damascene says of himself: I suffered a great deal of harm from inexperienced advisors."

and

"A guide should be free of passions and have the gift of good judgement, which means to know the right time; how to begin; how to proceed; what is the structure of a man, his strength, knowledge, zeal, maturity, capacity for warmth, his constitution, health and sickness, morality, place, education, disposition, purpose, conduct, understanding, native intellect, endeavor, courage, sluggishness; what is God's purpose; the meaning of each saying of Divine Scripture and much else. This is what a spiritual guide must be and what judgement he must have."

Fr Averky

17-05-2003, 11:34 AM

Dear Loretta,

While these statements have their value, are you personally in a position to judge the spiritual knowledge and worth of the men who have been given the grace of the priesthood by God.? That they did become priests happened only by God's will - of course what they do with it is the same as what all people do with what god has given to them for their salvation.

While I am not "closing ranks" just because I am a priest, and while I will admit that we as priests are weak and sinful as a whole, I still don't think it advisable for anyone who sincerely desires to attain salvation not to seek the blessing of God, and to do so through his priest or spiritual father. When a priest gives a blessing for a soul-saving endeavour - it is God's blsssing that he imparts. St. Ignatius Briachaninov says that before we do any good thing, we should ask ourselves if it is keeping with the teachings of the Holy Gospel.

If someone does not wish to his trust in those who have been ordained to help him on the road to salvation, and is willing to take full responsibilty for everything he does - let himg o ahead, but he alone will answer to God for it if it is not in the end good for his soul. And if he, by his words, encourages others to follow him in by personal doubts and fears, and they should come to spiritual harm because of it - then he will be responsible for that too. Our words can save - or condemn us.

I for one, I put my trust and my soul in the hands of my spiritual father, who has changed my life, who has been my companion and my guide, who admits his own failings and sinfulnesss, but who has helped me through my darkest moments, and has led me towards the Light of Salvation, and in that I take great comfort.

The words of Fr. John have their value in their particular context, as do those of the others you quote - but be careful, for even the words of the Fathers can become a subtle and dangerous weapon of the Devil against us - he would like nothing better than to appeal to our pride, letting us think that we are "wise" until we fall, and then cruelly pointing out that God is "just.". Better that you find a spiritual father in whom you can trust - it will be much better for you.

Father Averky

Loretta

17-05-2003, 02:35 PM

Thank you for your comments Father Averky.

It seems however, that you've misinterpreted my posting. This happens often across the internet as we all know.

I am making no judgments toward the clergy (or anyone else for that matter). I simply thought Father John's statements (whether one agrees with them or not) were worth sharing.

Thank you again for your response.

Fr Averky

18-05-2003, 02:40 AM

Dear Loretta,

Thank your most kind response. If I seemed to be over reacting, it is because I am by my nature very cautious in matters like this. It is not that I feel that lay people have no say whatsoever in spiritual matters, but I always have a healthy fear that people can be led on the wrong path by only a few words which have beed said or understood out of their proper context.

Over many years, I have witnessed terrible tragedies, because people took their spiritual direction and welfare into their own hands, refusing to take anyone else's word, even upon advisement. I know I might sound overly insistent, but I firmly believe that it is always better to act on the side of caution.

With this in mind, I was not berating you, as it might have seemed, but as a parent has that flash of concerned anger when his two year old has run out into the street, barely missing being hit by a car, I had a small panic attack on your behalf!

While I may not know you personally, I still would not want to see you or any one else come to spiritual harm. Please accept my words of concern in that context. God bless you!

Father Averky

Loretta

18-05-2003, 09:02 PM

Thank you Father Averky for your kind concern and gracious blessing.

Elisabeth

22-05-2003, 12:21 AM

>[Loretta- I was interested to read Father John's statements.

Recently I read an interesting article on 'The Spiritual Elder' by Fr. John Chryssavgis in a Journal called 'Presence'. In it he quotes St. John Climacus teaching that God can speak through anyone if the quest for instruction and healing is sincere, '....even if those consulted are not very spiritual. For God is not unjust, and will not lead astray souls who with faith and innocence humbly submit to the advice and judgement of their neighbor. Even if those asked were brute beasts, yet He who speaks is the immaterial and invisible One.' (St. John Climacus Step 26.)

Elisabeth > ]

Fr Averky

22-05-2003, 02:02 AM

Dear Elisabeth,

In the same book that Loretta quotes Fr. John from, there is a story about a hieromonk who served for a group of the faithful At some point, rumours about his personal life sufaced, and there were those who longer would go to him for confession or receive the Divine Mysteries from his hands. One night, one of them had a dream in which he saw a well. After a while, a small unpleasant looking creature approached and drew water from the well. The person tasted of the water, and it was cold, sweet and pure. Then the person having the dream heard a heavenly voice which said,"Do not judge the one to whom I have given the grace to give to you the Divine Mysteries, for even if he himself is unworthy, he still gives all of the Mysteries in My name." This is not exactly the story, for I read it many years ago, but the point is that priests, despite their personal sins have a particular grace given to them by God. That is why I have mentioned that it is good to get a blessing from one's spiritual father - who usually is his parish priest - for a blessing for any good thing. The priest need not be a clairvoyamt elder, he needs to be the person to whom you confess, and who knows you very well, and who personally sees to and cares for your personal spiritual welfare. Once a novice came to the Elder Joseph, one of the Optina Elders, and aked him,"Father, why it it that there are no longer any great teachers? The Elder Joseph answered very meekly, "Because, my son, there are no longer any great students." I also agree that by God's will many have been taught deep spiritual truths by those who are seemingly sinful, simple, or without knowledge. The Holy Spirit moves where He will, and in my own life time have been nourished spiritually by what seemed to be a chance remark from someone during what seemed to be only a casual conversation. If we open our hearts and meekly ask for God's help, He will send it to us, by whatever means He deems proper.

Fr. Averky

Moses Anthony

22-05-2003, 02:23 AM

Elizabeth, Loretta, Fr.A.

My understanding of the matter of spiritual guidance has always been the same, whether as a Protestant or an Orthodox.

My understanding was gained from the letter of Paul to the Church at Philippi, where admittedly the apostle is speaking about the preaching/proclamation of the gospel, "..and that most of the brethren trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;...What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice." Phil.1:14-18

If someone says that "I've been called to the ministry", and that person is lying through their teeth, then that is a matter between that person and God. The honus upon me, is to discern the spirits, and to walk in such a manner with my God, that when the voice of the Lord comes to me, I may know what the will of the Lords is! But you say isn't that the whole point of a spiritual father, one does not know what the will of the Lord is. On more than one occassion Jesus spoke to knowing the truth: "If any man is willing to do His will, he shall know of the teaching whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself;" ...and a stranger they will not follow... because they do not know the voice of strangers. "I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me." John 7:14-18; 10:1-14

Yes, much damage can and has been done by wolves in sheeps clothing, but not all the responsibility lies with the one giving the advice.

an unworthy servant

Fr Averky

22-05-2003, 05:39 AM

James,
you are missing my point entirely. However, if you want to "discern spirits" on your own, please help yourself. If you are speaking of a number of "spirits," then you cannot be speaking of the Holy Spirit. Before we start all good things, we chant, " O heavenly king, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who are everywhere present and fillest all things,come and abide in us." As I have said, several times now, speaking for myself and what I have been taught in the 34 years I have been Orthodox, it is is better to ask God's blessing. Why does this idea seem to some people to "limit" them? Is it so difficult to understand that it is better to ask the Holy Spirit to abide in us, rather than to do as we wish? James, I am not telling you what to to, I am telling you what I have been taught. Please, if it is better for you personally, don't bother to ask anybody anything - you have perfect freedom, do as you wish. It is perfectly clear to me that none of my postings in regards to this thread were intended for you.

At the time I became a priest, I was had been very happy as a deacon. I was taken from my Abba the vicar bishop, and had to serve the aged Archbishop of our diocese. One day after lunch, he simply announced that after Pascha he would ordain me. St. Paul even says that it is a good thing to desire to be a bishop. If you or anybody has doubts about the spiritual worthiness of clergy, that is your personal issue not mine. My spiritual father is no stranger to me, and no one knows my heart, my weaknessses and failings and sinfulness better than he - and no one has helped me in every way possible more than he, and in that I take great comfort. James, it is indeed a matter of trust, and if you have no trust in those God has given the grace to serve in His name, then I guess that you have to go on the perilous journey by yourself. Not every priest is perfect, not every minister is perfect, but we can only hope that they have the spiritual welfare of their parishioners up-most on their minds. Of course there have been charlatans and spiritually unworthy people over the centuries, but by and large, most sincerely love God and try with all their hearts to lead that flock which has been entrusted to them on the path to salvation.

I do not know of many Orthodox Christians who rely upon their own judgement and feel that they can discern God's will for themselves. In general, I rather think it a part of man's nature to seek advice from those whom he trusts, be it a clergy man, a friend or a relative. Few people want to make major decisions, and in some cases, smaller ones, without asking someone in whom they have placed some trust what they think they should do. Asking for God's blessing is not second-guessing Him, it is simply invoking His holy blessing on a good action - is that so very hard to comprehend?

Another thing, I am talking about the Russian Church, to which I belong -we have to go to confession each time we intend to receive communion, and because of this, our priests get to know their parishioners very well. Sometimes, people will even go to confession because they have something weighing on their soul, even though they will not be going to communion any time soon. By the strict rule of the Church, a priest needs to confess a minimun of onced a year, but most I know confess to their spiritual fathers on a regular basis. I can see that my words might sound a little "extreme" to those who have a different tradition. Still, I think that the average Orthodox Christian feels close enough to his priest that he can discuss problems, concerns and desires quite openly with him. A person's parish priest is the man who has baptized his children, performed weddings and baptisms, is the man who has been called when there is illness or death in the family. For the very last time, I will say that it always does much more good than harm to mention to your priest that you would like to start saying the Jesus Prayer on a regular basis and ask his priestly blessing to do so. It is part our wish to live a God-pleasing life.

I will tell you that once, and only once, I had a spiritual father who more than anything frightened me, He was very moody : he was sometimes very cheerful and extremely helpful and kind - other times, he looked like a storm cloud and was not approachable at all. Sometimes when I went to him with what I considered to be a very serious problem, he would look agitated, and proceed to say nothing. After awhile, I had to go to the bishop and ask to be released from that man and go to another - this turned out very well. It is not always a matter of personalities in the end, it is relying upon the wisdom of God. While my first spiritual father's character in the end got to be too much for me, I will tell you that despite this, he gave me a very firm foundation in the monastic life, imparting to me great treasures and much wisdom. We reconciled our differences many many years ago, so all I feel towards him now is gratitude for all that he gave me spiritually - it turns out that at that time when I had problems with him, he was going through great problems of his own, and had little strength to help me or anyone else. From that alone I learned that when people are not treating you as well as you might like, it might be that they themselves are barely coping with overwhelming problems of their own. James, good luck on your journey by yourself, if that is what you personally feel you should do. I wish you only well, and pray that God will watch over you.

In Christ,

Father Averky

Fr Averky

22-05-2003, 05:57 AM

James,

Just a further thought: I very much agree with you that sometimes in matters spiritual, discernment is indeed involved. I remember that once, a priest I had met only once before, started to talk to me about my spiritual life, asking questions and making judgements based on almost no knowledge of me. I politley listened, thanked him, then took the matter to my own spiritual Father, I really do believe that there are times when God will cover us, and we sense somehow that something being said does not quite ring true.
I am in no way saying that lay people have no right to spiritual judgement or that they are not capable of spiritual discernemnt - that is another matter completely - I have been speaking about the efficacy of blessings, and their value in our daily lives. God sends His Word and His love and His advice in many forms -if we are open to Him, we will see, and we will understand. As you say, what is done with good advice is the responsibility of he who receives it. We agree more than we disagree on this point.

Fr. Averky

M.C. Steenberg

22-05-2003, 01:25 PM

Elisabeth recently wrote:

Recently I read an interesting article on 'The Spiritual Elder' by Fr. John Chryssavgis in a Journal called 'Presence'. In it he quotes St. John Climacus teaching that God can speak through anyone if the quest for instruction and healing is sincere, '....even if those consulted are not very spiritual. For God is not unjust, and will not lead astray souls who with faith and innocence humbly submit to the advice and judgement of their neighbor. Even if those asked were brute beasts, yet He who speaks is the immaterial and invisible One.' (St. John Climacus Step 26.)

I do believe there is a proper UK conspiracy going on here. In the past two weeks, I've had this precise passage brought up to me in no less than four discussions. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

INXC, Matthew

Loretta

22-05-2003, 04:13 PM

Good Morning,

With regards to spiritual fathers, I would like to share an example of the many instructions I've received from my parish priest. We are a very small poor Byzantine parish who are blessed with a most humble and kind pastor. I've found that many times I've received instructions from our priest without a word being said. His actions and demeanor in many instances have spoken volumns. I thank God for directing me to this man of God. His concern for my spiritual life is a treasure.

A spiritual father is most necessary. And, I thank you also, Father Averky, for speaking the truth. Sometimes your words are stronger than expected, but always given in kindness and sincere concern. I for one take your responses to heart. You speak the truth and I've found that as I reflect on your comments the hardness of my heart is softened again and again. Thank you.

Elisabeth, your beautiful St. John Climacus teaching is well received. Thank you for posting it.

I suppose what I'm trying to say, my dear friends, is that living with an open heart through The Jesus Prayer, brings His instructions in most surprising ways.

The decisions I've made throughout my life without spiritual direction have been foolish and full of pride. (Funny how I always want others to be honest with me, yet many times I struggle to be honest with myself.) My decisions have only served as stumbling blocks to reaching Our Lord. I'm still a very long way from being close to God, but now with His spiritual direction through my priest my journey is set on the right path.

Loretta

Richard Leigh

22-05-2003, 04:44 PM

Hi Everybody!

I was composing what follows before Loretta's excellent post showed up. Thank you Loretta! I will still share this from the yet not quite Orthodox." I think it might be useful to any other non-Orthodox on the list, and might even help the Orthodox understand us a little more (not that any might not need to!):

Since this thread is about the Jesus Prayer, I'd like to share what little I've learned about and from it, and since spiritual guidance is recommended for its use, I will speak to that as well.

Over two decades ago, as a Lutheran, I became associated with a "charismatic prayer group" (you can ask if you want) attached to a local Episcopalian church (this was long before those two communions decided to be in full communion with each other). The rector of the church was highly involved in Jungian psychoanalysis, and fairly much made that the mode of the congregation's spirituality. I don't mean to divert the conversation of this thread to this type of "spirituality" at all, I only bring it up to show that there were many in the congregation interested in exploring the "inner life." Protestantism does not have much of a place for this, it seems that when it tries it falls into some egocentric error such as "the Society of Friends" (Quakers). This is one of the reasons behind the suspicion of the "charismatic movement" among the more conservative in the Protestant camps, as well as general misunderstanding, if not suspicion, of EO-doxy.

This Episcopalian parish I speak of had a library and also a book store. Many people were interested in the book, "The Way of a Pilgrim" and so, like them, I bought a copy there. This is where I first learned of the Jesus Prayer, and more importantly, of the Philokalia.

I suppose I need not tell this readership the instructions given by "the Pilgrim," suffice it to say that there was a distinction made, as I recall, between, just praying it, and following the breathing exercises that went with it, developed by the hesychasts (sp?). Dancer seemed to be associated with praying the prayer along with the breathing exercises and for this a spiritual director was strongly suggested, if not required. Many years later, in a question and answer period of a lecture on Orthodoxy by the pastor of Archbishop Iakovos' church, St. Nicholas' here in St. Louis, the priest actually said that direction was not needed for the prayer, unless it was done in conjunction with the breathing exercises.

I must say here that since the time I started reading "Way of a Pilgrim" I began the use of the Jesus Prayer, sometimes more fervently than other times (most of us charismatics have another prayer form to use as well, and perhaps for that, spiritual direction should be sought!). Also, I'd like to say that in those early days, all that was available in English from the Philokalia was a volume which had excerpted out of that spiritual encyclopedia those tracts dealing specifically with the Prayer. Since then, the whole thing has come out, and I am still collecting those volumes.

And now for my thoughts on Spiritual Direction.

Jesus said "Judge not that ye be not judged, for the judgment you mete will come back on you 100 fold" and "If you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, you have a beam in your own eye, remove the beam in your own eye first, and then you can help your neighbor. The import of this verse for a discussion of spiritual direction is that when any of us seek a spiritual director, we are seeking someone we want to be our "judge." It follows that this director will be a true director if he (or she?) has removed the beam from his of her own eye in order to be effective in removing what to the director would be, by comparison, the "speck" in our own eye.

We Americans grow up in a Protestant ethos which pretty much thinks that this matter of religion is a matter of opinion, to be learned by studying all the arguments, weighing and balancing all the propositional data, and making a stab at the best guess as to how to proceed and what to believe. As a result, since it seems that anyone's opinion is as good as anyone else's, we tend to be suspicious of anyone else knowing enough to guide us in such an important endeavor as finding God himself. And, we have trouble understanding this "foreign" Orthodoxy which, if we are hearing them right, purport to give experience of the Living God as the data by which they have been guided along a path we thought was "only a matter of opinion." The prospect that anyone really can know by experience, and therefore be right is very exciting, and even daunting, but I trust this little paragraph somewhat explains American hesitancy regarding it in general.

Because of the drift this thread seems to have taken, I might add that Jesus also said, regarding "those that sit in Moses seat" that his followers should "do as they say, not as they do," but more importantly, he told those who were to be sitting at his seat (or actually to the right or left of him), i.e., whoever wanted to be first among them, not to lord it over the flock, but be servant of all, like him.

The whole ethos of Orthodoxy is one of "connection", relationship, with a sense that there is not interruption in the line of attachment between generations, even back to the time of the Lord and his apostles (in the spirit of St. John, nobody in the Lord ever really dies, they just fall asleep, i.e., bodily they fall into a position of repose, but being face to face with the Lord cannot be in a state of unconsciousness -- awaiting the future resurrection). We don't have that in most versions of Protestantism that I know of (and in precious few of any observable Catholicism as well!). So, we should know, I would think, that if we're seeking spiritual guidance that we are looking for someone who's Orthodox (I probably didn't need to say that!), and we might consider following the injunctions St. Paul gives regarding a congregation choosing its elders and bishops, not to choose "a recent convert," or anyone in other ways not socially acceptable. I think the idea of getting in the Orthodox liturgical "rhythm," and otherwise praying that the Lord give one a spirit of repentance, and lead one to the spiritual father right for one is very good. Like will attract like, in any case, and we can be sure that the Lord will give no one anything but what He knows is the best for one at the time.

A lot more could be said, but I'd better wait till I have any experience of the matter beyond this, i.e., until I've found my own spiritual director.

Oh, one more thing, I've been reading St. Symeon the New Theologian, and I find that his Spiritual Father was St. Symeon the Studite, a lay monk. This seems similar to the development of spiritual direction in Ireland, which was performed by lay monks. So, laity can give valuable spiritual guidance.

Richard

Moses Anthony

22-05-2003, 04:52 PM

Fr. Averky,

I was chrismated on Pentecost Sunday,1998 (which made it more special). My parish priest was transferred to another parish, nearly a year ago. Since he was the person who was at one time my Methodist priest; and the one who invited me to begin this odessy/journey, besides my wife, he of all people knows me best.

As an employee of the state my time is restricted, unless I'm granted additional time off. My situation puts my ability to find a 'spiritual father' at a disadvantage, as it will take me some time (years ), before being comfortable with my present priest as my spiritual father. I understand that my being 'comfortable' is negotiable. I tell you all that simply to say, I'd love to have a 'spiritual father' to go to on a regular basis!

My post earlier was simply to echo the point that truth is truth, for which the faithful should rejoice, even when the messenger is not entirely worthy. I cannot discernanything if the Holy Spirit is not Himself residing within me, much less if I should, in pursuit of the holiness of the Lord Jesus Christ, follow bad advice.

Even as a Protestant I knew better than to think that I could journey towards Christ by myself, although I had no idea of the real communion of the saints.
Before my mission parish lost its priest, we were visited twice by a nun, the Mother of a skete in another state. Having been impressed previously by her piety, on the occassion of the second visit and just prior to her departure, I was impressed to ask for a blessing (I don't know what the rubrics for such a thing is in ROCOR). She said that she was not really pronounce a blessing. As I held her hand she did say a simple word twice, totally flooring me, "Axios, Axios." The chotki I wear the most I got from her. It's because of the words she spoke, and the knowledge of the strugles within me that I sign my posts as I do.

an unworthy servant

Moses Anthony

22-05-2003, 05:03 PM

Fr. Averky,

Forgive me for not making this clarification in my most recent post, when I mentioned that I worked as a state employee. My job requires that I work four days and then I'm off four days. This means that for a month of Sundays (4), I'm not able to be at church. My priest knows my work situation.

an unworthy servant

Fr Averky

27-05-2003, 02:33 AM

Dear Jaes,

Forgive my not answering you sooner - I did not want you to think I was being dismissive of your words. Each of us lives in completely different situations: I have the comfort ( and cross) of living in a monastery where we have a full round of services and a resident bishop. I understand that this is the not even remotely the case with most people.

To all of you, I make a prostration and ask your forgiveness. I all to often overlook the fact that the average layperson has all he can do to make it to church, say his daily prayers, keep the fast the best he can - all amid the stress of living in the world. I want to make it very clear to everyone - I have nothing against any Orthodox Christian saying the Jesus Prayer, and recommend it most highly. I realize thatt I might have beaten to death the idea of getting blessing first - but it takes less than a minute, and will give you much grace.

All of my Orthodox life I have had the singular blessing of being around wonderful teachers - Fr. Herman and especially Fr. Seraphim Rose Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco, a schema-monk and a man full of Christian love. Archbishop Averky, a true champion of Orthodoxy, and Metropolitan Laurus, a truly good and holy monk, filled with the love of God, wisdom and mercy. When I arrived here, there were many old monks who lived through the terrors of the Russian revolution and the civil war, barely escaping with their lives and often living off of tree bark and grass. They knew what "struggle" means, and they were so sweet, kind, tolerant and patient with us dizzy converts who, on the one hand, thought we "knew" everything, while on the other, we were foolish, weak, and had no idea what we were doing. They taught us much about prayer, enduring, and love of neighbor.

My one great concern for all of you is that you reach salvation. When I was a young man, and even for several years as a monk, I often would make decisions which caused me many problems and caused disasters. By God's mercy, I was given a spiritual father whom I had known for many years, and must say, was not particularly fond of. At first, I could tell that the feeling was mutual - but in time, he transformed my life, with a firm but loving hand. He had no problem calling me in and yelling at me, pointing out it might be a good idea if I would bother to "think" before I did or said something. Yet, there have been moments when I have clearly seen how much he loves and cares for me, and how much he desires for me to be saved. It is under his care and guidance that my monastic life has reached its maturity. Having a spiritual father is having someone to turn to when your life is bleak, when you have overwhelming problems. He is someone in whom you can trust - a father, a mother, a friend, a guide, an angel. A person who has a good spiritual father is truly blessed.

Thus, when I have suggested that you ask your priest for a blessing, it comes from an understanding of how important this is to the Christian soul. James, I understand your work situation - I have had similar, and I also know that you are doing the very best you can, and God sees it, and graciously receives what you do offer him in your heart.

I think that I can safely say that the priests of all of you have great concern and love for their parishioners, taking very seriously the obedience that they have to watch over the flock given to them. Treat them with love and respect, ad I can tell you, that when you do ask a blessing, it will touch their hearts. There is a loneliness which priests experience, and they stand with fear before the throne of God, for they know the heavy responsibility they bear.

On another thread, I mention that yesterday I was talking about the Jesus Prayer and receiving a blessing to say it from one of our senior Fathers. He told me that when he was in Russia last September, among the many places his group went to was the St. Sergius-Holy Trinity Lavra, the greatest monastery of Russia. When his group was at the book store, there was quite a large display of prayer ropes. If someone wanted to by one, the hieromonk in charge would ask them if they had a blessing to say the Prayer, and to tell him honestly. If they said "No," he would politley tell them that he could not sell it to them. If a foreign tourist wanted to buy one, he would be asked if he was Orthodox, if he was not, he also would not be sold one. You see, I come from the Russian tradition, and that is what I have been taught.

In the Greek tradition, people are encouraged to say the Prayer, thus, it is very natural for Effie to use her prayer rope as part of her prayer rule. So, to make it very clear again, The Jesus Prayer can be of great comfort, and I do recommend it. St. Ignatius Brichaninov says that at first we should say it slowly, and out loud. Then very quietly, then silently. Only in time does the prayer move to the heart and breathing becomes part of it. My mother had the Prayer, and said it endlessly until her death at 90. May God bless those of you who wish sincerely to make use of this Great Prayer of the Church.

With much love in the Risen Christ

Hieromonk Averky

Fr Averky

27-05-2003, 03:25 AM

Dear All.

I have read this thread again, and I feel that I must say that I agree that God in His love and wisdom gives advice and direction through those who love Him. Being a priest or a monk in no way guarentees that the person is capable of giving advice that will be salvific. As James received the kind words from a nun, and was touched by the simple but profound word "Axios," so too can a word, sometimes even casually said, be an instrument of God's love through the Holy Spirit. I am sure that all of us has had that experience where we had been looking for an answer, and during the course of a conversation, the answer was given to us.

I recently found these lovely thoughts in the June 1996 "Shepherd." a publication of the St Edward Brotherhood in England, and would like to share them with you:

"Two are better than one, say Scripture (Eccls. 4:9). That is to say, "I is better for a man to be with his father, and to struggle with his proclivities with the help of the Divine power of the Holy Spirit. He who deprives a blind man of his leader, a flock of its shepherd, a lost man of his guide, a child of its father, a patient of his doctor, a ship of its pilot, imperils all. And he who attempts unaided to struggle with the spirits is slain by them."

"The young Tobias, when told to set out on his juorney, said,"I have no knowledge of the way." His father Tobit replied, "Go and seek one man to guide thee." Do you wish to set out on the way of God? Find some man to guide and conduct you. You will never find out the will of God so surely as by the way of humble obedience, so much recommended and practised by all the Holy Fathers. The world defames the good life, and especially spiritual guidance, saying that it is wretched and unbearable to be "under the will of another." But the Holy Spiritu assures us by the mouths of all the saints, and our Divine Saviour does by His own, that a good life is sweet, happy and agreeable (Matt. 11:28-30), in fact, a triumphant progress from strenght to strength, from victory to victory. Thanks be to God Who in Christ ever leads us in His triumphant procession( 2 Cor. 2:14).

The Good Spiritual Guide

A faithful friend is a strong defence; and he that hath found him hath found a treasure.
A faithful friend is a medicine of life; and they that fear the Lord shall find him (Eccl. 6:14,16)

"Those divines words refer to life, as you see, and chiefly eternal life, for which it is necesssary to have a faithful friend to indicate our delusions from the evil one. He will be a treasure of wisdom in our affliction, in our doubts, in our sorrows, and in our falls. He will serve as a medicine to ease and heal our hearts our spiritual sickness. He will keep us from evil, and, if we stumble and fall, he will lift us up and set us on our feet again-our two feet , of love of God and our neighbors by which we run to our heavenly home."

"But who will find this friend? God has given us the answer: They that fear the Lord, that is to say, the humble, who sincerely desire their spiritual progress, and who fear to displease the Lord. As it is so important to go with a good guide on this holy journey, pray to God, with great earnestness to provide you with one, and have no doubt; for even if He has to send an Angel from heaven as He did Tobias, He will give you one that is good and faithful and suitable to your needs."

"This guide ought always to be an Angel in your eyes, that is to say, when you have found him, do not look upon him as a mere man, but put your trust in God, Who will bless and speak to you by means of this man, and will put into his heart and mouth whatever is necessary for your salvation and happiness. St. John of Kronstadt says, " A priest is an angel and not a man."

I was very moved when I read this, and hope that you will find it of value. God bless all of you!

With much love,

Father Averky

Loretta

27-05-2003, 01:42 PM

Thank you Father Averky,
If I may, I would like to pose a thought that would probably be simplistic to many but which has encouraged me to seek spiritual direction in my life.

Our Lord had on numerous occasions stated that He was on earth not to do His will, but that of His Father. Many instances are written of His going out to pray (speak) alone to His Father. And, also it is written that His was "obedient" even unto death.

In my mind, seeking spiritual direction is a way of imitating Our Savior. And being obedient is a disipline that is necessary to gain humility. I can honestly say that it is pride that would keep me from accepting spiritual direction. I don't think God made me so self-sufficient as to be able to be so all-seeing as to know the "perfect" way.

If I say I don't need direction, I am already obedient to all the laws of God, or I know what is best for me, then I must already be a saint. And if this can be true, that I know for certain what is best for me, then why am I in the state that I'm in. Or why is it that I don't give myself the right advice and have trouble following this self-knowledge.

In search of the graces of humility, I need to submit my will to His through His holy priests. Be it known Father Averky, that it has taken many many years to realize the benefits of spiritual direction....lost years, lost years.

Thank you again Father for your beautiful words.

Loretta

dianne marie debs

27-05-2003, 08:50 PM

Dear Loretta,

I was moved by our humble honesty. All of us can so easily lose years as you said. The responsibility and pressures we take upon ourselves can truely be over baring.

I,too, lost many years..... but now HALLELUJA.
Through the strengh of the Holy Spirit I now do not dwell upon the past. Through the love, kindness and grace of Our Lord the past years are confessed and now I go forward on the true and glorious path toward salvation.

Now the road is difficult. I have declared myself part of a community, the community of Our Lord. Now I have to work every minute to keep my faith strong. Of course I will fall along the way, but now I now HE really loves me and I know the true meaning of His love. So no matter what I will face along the way I am not disturbed because I know that He loves, cares and will protect me.

The Jesus Pray has bought me closer to The Lord.
It has reinforced the foundations of my faith.
It has taught me patience and obedience.
Through this simple prayer my relationship with Our Lord has grown stronger and stronger.

I do believe that our Holy priests are here to help and guide us ,as though Jesus is actually in flesh walking with us.

I, myself, am blessed to be part of a community here in Lebanon that is rich with real Christians and really Holy priests. I thank God every day for this grace during my daily prayers.
They guide me and they follow up on me and they lead me through the use of the Jesus Prayer and other things to salvation.

Please pray for me that this humble servant of Our Lord may really one day reach salvation.It is a long,tough road.

I pray over and over again.
"Oh Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy upon me a sinner"
This comes from my heart my tears roll down my face. How wonderful Our Lord is that He would even allow us ,SINNERS, to ask for His mercy and how He truely LOVES us that He would give us mercy.

Father Averky, again I want to thank you. This community is blessed with your presence.God Bless you andkeep you strong.
God Bless each member who spends time to involve themselves in these conversations. They show us how we are so similar even though we are spead out on this earth. We all have one goal that is to Glorify Our Lord. God Bless you all.

A unworthy member and servant of the Lord,
Dianne

tom just

30-09-2003, 04:38 PM

I have been using the Jesus Prayer for several years. Lately I have been having concerns about my salvation. From an Orthodox point of view what is necessary to ensure my salvation? Tom

john choate

30-09-2003, 09:07 PM

Hello Everyone.

My name is John Choate, and I am an Orthodox Christian from San Angelo, Texas. I have been lurking in the background learning from all of you and I so appreciate all of information that each of you give. Fr. Averky, your past post concerning a difficult Spiritual Father really helped me in a particular situation and I so appreciate it.

My question to Mr. Owen: Which saint teaches the cessation of being and all related to this subject? I am unfamiliar with this teaching and would like to research it further. Thank you so much.

john

Richard McBride

30-09-2003, 09:32 PM

Also Tom,

you might want to read the past messages on the Jesus Prayer, the Prayer of the Heart.

richard mcb

Richard McBride

01-10-2003, 04:11 AM

Dear Tom

I understand what you are saying.

Did you see my second message to you? It was that you should read the old messages on the Jesus prayer. There are many warnings about using the prayer, and for those not Orthodox and without spiritual advisors there can be problems.

richard mcb

Fr Averky

01-10-2003, 05:53 AM

Dear Thomas,

Forgive me, I did not understand your very first post, and I thought that you are Orthodox. May I suggest that you take a serious look at Orthodoxy. Very importantly, If you are not Orthodox, I really think that you should not attempt saying the Jesus Prayer on your own. As Professor McBride suggests, look at the Monochos archives as indicated on this question, for it is a serious matter. Other than my advice concerning how to live a pious Orthodox life, which does not apply to you, my answer does remain the same. may God bless you.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

tom just

01-10-2003, 02:41 PM

To all I thank you for your advice. It is well received. Father Averky I receive your advice and will keep it in the foreground of my mind as the years go by. May we all grow in his presence. Tom

Daniel Robinson

25-11-2003, 08:44 PM

Does anyone know how old the Jesus Prayer is? I mean, when was this prayer first taught as such, and by whom?

I'd like to research its development and proliferation, but am not sure where to start.

Fr Averky

26-11-2003, 07:03 AM

Dear Daniel,

The Jesus Prayer comes from Holy Scripture.

As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance and called out in a loud voice, "Jesus, Master, have pity ln us." Luke 17:12

In Mark 6: 46-47 Then they came to Jericho. As Jesus and his disciples, together with a large crowd were leaving the city, a blind man, Bartimaeus was sitting by the roadside begging. When he heard it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, "Jesus Son of David have mercy on me!" Also: Luke 18:38.

In Matthew 9:27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, "Have mercy on us, Son of David."

From these verses the Prayer of the Heart is taken, and the early Fathers of the Church saw the importance and spiritual value of them and it has become the great Christocentric prayer of the Orthodox Church.

I pray you willl find this to be helpful.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

M.C. Steenberg

26-11-2003, 10:31 AM

Dear Daniel Robinson,

Welcome to the discussion community. Father Averky has already given you the most direct and helpful response to your question; namely, that the source of the prayer is in the Scriptures where its 'parts' are encountered in the words spoken to Jesus by those around Him.

If you are interested in knowing more about the history of the practice of the prayer (i.e. information on its development as a distinct prayer and monastic practice, its connection with the prayer rope, etc.; and distinct from the notion of actually learning to practice the prayer, which cannot be done online but only with a spiritual father of experience), you might wish to examine the small booklet by the so-called 'Monk of the Eastern Church' (a.k.a. Archimandrite Lev Gillet), called On the Invocation of the Name of Jesus, which if I recall includes a section on the history of the prayer. Also, the same author wrote a longer work on the prayer, which I vaguely remember might be called simply The Jesus Prayer, which includes substantially more historical information (and is also more widely available).

INXC, Matthew

Daniel Robinson

26-11-2003, 05:11 PM

Thanks for the info, guys. I've seen those books, but haven't read them yet, so I'll definitely check them out.

Do either of you know why the prayer was not adopted in the West? It must be that some early Fathers pieced it together from the Scriptural sources, and some did not.

by the way, Matthew, I'm glad you explained the dangers associated with the physical practices accompanying the Prayer on one of the other threads. I've been instructed similarly regarding such practices.

John P. Nasou

27-11-2003, 02:13 AM

Of interest in the scripture readings mentioned in an earlier response is the word used in both Luke and Matthew for mercy, 'eleison' in Greek, originally in ancient Greek meant "pity". It is so translated in several English versions of the New Testament. The Latin language had a word 'misericordia' which also meant "pity".

As the Roman Empire became more and more bound by legal procedures and its terminologies, this word was used by those who threw themselves on
the "mercy" of the court. It was from this use that the Latin scriptures and services apply this same term to the expression "Lord have mercy."

M.C. Steenberg

27-11-2003, 10:30 AM

Daniel wrote:

Do either of you know why the prayer was not adopted in the West? It must be that some early Fathers pieced it together from the Scriptural sources, and some did not.

To this end, Daniel, it must be remembered that a prayer is not simply an abstract construct of words, whatever their source. A prayer, and especially a common practice of prayer, is the 'visible' manifestation of the inner spirituality come alive (or coming alive) in the heart of the human person. Prayer the act is union with God; prayer the word is the spoken manifestation of this union, passed along from those who have attained it to those who are in the process of the struggle.

As such, it should not greatly surprise us that different Christian traditions have embraced different forms of prayer, and not embraced others. Such a thing as the Jesus Prayer is not simply a 'rite' to be taken up, but an integral and integrated part of Orthodox spirituality which really only finds its full breath and life within this spirituality. Elsewhere it has a certain potency, a portion of aid and support, but it is always an export, never alive in the same way.

INXC, Matthew

Richard Leigh

27-11-2003, 06:16 PM

Dear John,

What you say about eleison, miserecordia, and mercy/pity is interesting. In Psalm 102 (LXX, 103 in MT) v. 3, eleison is translated by the Hebrew chesed, the binding covenant love, and another word, oiktirmois, also translated by the Latin miserecordia, is translated by the Hebrew rachamim, a compassion of uterine, gut wrenching proportion (hence it is in the plural).

Oiktirmois is found in the NT as well, translated there too in the Latin by miserecordia.

Richard

M.C. Steenberg

30-11-2003, 01:30 PM

Dear all,

Regarding the translation of 'eleios' (thus 'eleison') as either 'mercy' or 'pity', perhaps it is worth noting that these two concepts are not distinguished in Greek. There was not a shift in meaning from one to the other over time; it is simply the case that both concepts are identical in Greek writing. It is more a phenomenon of English that 'to take pity' and 'to have mercy' are separate concepts -- but even this is relatively modern. Older translations often use the two interchangeably.

INXC, Matthew

Alex Haig

16-11-2004, 02:24 AM

Does anyone know of a site with the Jesus Prayer in different languges?

With love in Christ

Alex

Herman Blaydoe

16-11-2004, 12:19 PM

You might want to check out this site:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/12755.htm

George Hawkins

20-11-2004, 05:35 AM

In Japanese it is:
Shu Iisusu Harisutosu, Kaminokoya, Ware zainin wo awaremitamae.

Giorgos Karabás

22-11-2004, 08:46 PM

IN SPANISH:
Señor Jesucristo, Hijo de Dios,
ten piedad de mí pecador.

christopher r. vianzon

23-11-2004, 05:30 AM

The Holy Fathers on ... THE JESUS PRAYER

Grace abides in us from the time of our holy baptism; but, through our inattention, vanity and the wrong life we lead it is stifled, or buried. When a man resolves to lead a righteous life and is zealous for salvation, the fruit of his whole labour is, therefore, the restoration in force of this gift of grace. It comes to pass in a two-fold manner: first, this gift becomes revealed through many labours in following the commandments; insofar as a man succeeds in following the commandments, this gift becomes more radiant and brilliant. Secondly, it manifests and reveals itself through constant invocation of the Lord Jesus in prayer. The first method is powerful, but the second is more so, so that even the first method gains power through it. Thus, if we sincerely wish to open the seed of grace concealed in us, let us hasten to train ourselves in this latter exercise of the heart, and let us have only this work of prayer in our heart, without forms, without images, till it warms our heart and makes it burn with ineffable love of the Lord. St Gregory of Sinai

Unceasing calling upon the name of God cures one not only of passions, but also of actions; and as a medicine affects a sick man without his comprehension, similarly the invocation of the name of God destroys passions in a manner beyond our comprehension. St. Barsanuphius the Great

Sean Kealey

17-02-2006, 04:29 AM

Dear All,
I was just reading some of the first posts on the Jesus prayer thread and on Matthew C Steenberg's post on Monday, 17 December, 2001, he talked about how the Jesus prayer is for any and everyone, not just those of the Orthodox faith. However, the need for a spiritual guide always goes hand in hand with this prayer in everything I have heard of it. How does one who is not of the Orthodox faith (yet) go about finding someone that will guide him/her in this prayer?

Sean

Efthymios

17-02-2006, 12:11 PM

Read:

[Link] (http://www.balamandmonastery.org.lb/jesus_prayer.htm)

There is an audio book available from the Monastery in Arizona

(Message edited by admin on 17 February, 2006)

Patrick Walsh

17-02-2006, 09:46 PM

Hello

St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov)'s book "On the Jesus Prayer" gives a good introduction to the Jesus Prayer, starting with a brief examination of it's origins. In early Christianity, he makes the point that the prayer was so well known there was little need to write about it. But examining the lives of the Saints. such as Saint Ignatius of Antioch, upon whose heart the Jesus Prayer was actually inscribed before he was given to the lions, demonstrates its early presence in Christianity.

I highly recommend this book.

Patrick

Ken McRae

22-03-2006, 09:20 PM

See Fr. Irenee Hausherr's book on 'The Name of Jesus' (http://christdesert.us/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TNOF&Category_Code=PR)

Bishop Hilarion on Fr. Irenee Hausherr's Contribution to the 20th Century Neo-Patristic Synthesis (http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/2.aspx)

"The idea expressed by Florovsky, which had been 'hanging in the air' throughout the 20th century, has inspired many outstanding patristic scholars not only among the Russian diaspora but also among Western scholars. I would like here to pay tribute to those theologians who, though themselves not belonging to the Eastern theological traditions, have succeeded in uncovering the heritage of the great Fathers of the Eastern church, both for themselves and for the Western world. First should be mentioned Irenee Hausherr, Hans Urs von Balthasar, Henri de Lubac, Jean Danielou, Walther Volker, Werner Jaeger, Johannes Quasten, John Kelly and Gilles Prestige, as well as, among those still with us, such scholars as Professor Jaroslav Pelikan, Cardinal Cristoph Schonborn, Hieromonk Gabriel Bunge, and Professor Sebastian Brock. The “patristic renaissance” of the 20th century would have been impossible without these persons, true zealots of theological scholarship, who in their works were able (in the literal or figurative sense) to reach across the confessional barriers separating them from the Orthodox tradition."

Byron Jack Gaist

23-03-2006, 06:50 AM

Dear Theophilus,

Surely Bishop Hilarion is correct to praise these theological giants and scholars. It goes to show that seeds of the Word may be found in other traditions and in all right-believing souls.

In Christ
byron

Fr Seraphim (Black)

23-03-2006, 03:26 PM

With great respect towards Bishop Hilarion (whom I have met and shared many joyful hours with) I would like to say that to state that '"the patristic renaissance" of the 20th century would have been impossible without these persons, true zealots of theological scholarship...' is a bit of a stretch.

I believe we can have proper respect towards our Hierarchs and be allowed the proper Orthodox freedom to say that the above words are incomplete.

The Jesus Prayer, to my knowledge, has barely died out on the Holy Mountain, through out its long history, and throughout Orthodox History in various Orthodox lands and in particular places (often close in proximity to monasteries) we find active 'pockets' of this form of Prayer.

Also, it truly needs to be again underlined, as Matthew pointed out some time ago, that this particular prayer took root in Orthodox soil and has therein flourished.

The Jesus Prayer, based as it is on the words of our Saviour Himself, is, as any prayer, not something to dabble in.

There is absolutely no doubt that an experienced guide is needed in the deeper stages, or progressions of the Jesus Prayer. Not only a human guide, but of great urgency, a life nourished by the Church, by the Sacraments, and especially regarding the Jesus Prayer, Confession and the reception of the Holy Mysteries.

Having said the above I find the mention of Hieromonk Gabriel Bunge rather disturbing. Any one with knowledge of the extremely difficult 'passover' of Archimandrite Placide Deseille, the formidable challenges, obstacles and deception put in his way by his Roman Catholic superiors, can only wonder at the situation of Hieromonk Bunge.

That Father Placide was subsequently received into the Orthodox Church on the Holy Mountain of Athos, of his own volition, which involved Baptism, which is the normal Athonite way of receiving anyone from heterodox confessions, and the incredible shock waves this sent throughout the Roman Catholic Church especially in France and the enormous and very real pressure placed upon the Orthodox Hierarchs in France and Great Britain, due to Father Placide's 'betrayal', only gives vibrant voice to the real nature of the Roman Catholic Church.

I would caution anyone who feels they can be 'nourished' by great scholars of the Catholic Church. Not one of them, with the exception of Jaroslav Pelikan (who was not Catholic) took the words they so carefully studied and turned their heart towards the Orthodox Church. Not one of them had the courage of Father Placide to be so Christ like and suffer years of ridicule and severe judgement.

What is that saying so popular in North American culture?..."walk the talk, and talk the walk" (forgive me if I have not quite got it correctly).

One can find remarkable similarities between the Jesus Prayer, the Sufi dikhr, the Hindu japa, the Buddhist 'mantra' but that in no way implies that they are ways of prayer leading to transfiguration by the grace of the Triune God of Orthodox Christianity of the human person.

If you are an Orthodox Christian and you feel the need to be spiritually nourished by Islamic mysticism, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Native American spirituality, there is something deeply wrong in your dogmatic conception and something very deeply incorrect in your day to day living of the Life in Christ.

Ken McRae

25-03-2006, 07:01 AM

"With great respect towards Bishop Hilarion (whom I have met and shared many joyful hours with) I would like to say that to state that '"the patristic renaissance" of the 20th century would have been impossible without these persons, true zealots of theological scholarship...' is a bit of a stretch."

Granted. I can accept that he was probably hyperbolizing to make a point. But what was his point? That is the real question, which you have skillfully avoided. It almost seems to me you have been reading hidden inferences between words and lines. It is clear to me that the point he wished to make was nothing more or less than that these scholars (scholastics, if you prefer,) have provided a collection of writings of great value, in the field of Patristic enquiry. And, as holding both an Orthodox bishopric and a theological doctorate, Bishop Hilarion is more than qualified to assert as much. And it is only high-minded, imo, to deny this. I sought to imply nothing more by the quotation, than the fact that this text was more than adequately equipped to address the historical question(s), with great detail. I said nothing about trying to learn how to pray from this book, or any other, for that matter. Did I?

"I believe we can have proper respect towards our Hierarchs and be allowed the proper Orthodox freedom to say that the above words are incomplete. The Jesus Prayer, to my knowledge, has barely died out on the Holy Mountain, through out its long history, and throughout Orthodox History in various Orthodox lands and in particular places (often close in proximity to monasteries) we find active 'pockets' of this form of Prayer. Also, it truly needs to be again underlined, as Matthew pointed out some time ago, that this particular prayer took root in Orthodox soil and has therein flourished."

While that particular prayer, as far as its external form goes, may have taken root in the East, the desert fathers did not restrict themselves to one external formula, or set of words, and so it was never thought necessary to do so in the West. That is not the same as to say the West has never taught, from ancient times, the need for the continual remembrance of God by the practice of unceasing prayer. Quite the opposite is true!

"The Jesus Prayer, based as it is on the words of our Saviour Himself, is, as any prayer, not something to dabble in. *There is absolutely no doubt that an experienced guide is needed* in the deeper stages, or progressions of the Jesus Prayer. Not only a human guide, but of great urgency, a life nourished by the Church, by the Sacraments, and especially regarding the Jesus Prayer, Confession and the reception of the Holy Mysteries."

St. Silouan on submitting ourselves to *inexperienced* spiritual guides:-

"The novice naturally needs a guide, for until the advent of the grace of the Holy Spirit the soul is involved in fierce struggle with her foes ... etc. But the Lord succours the man who is humble, and if there be no experienced guide, and he turns to the confessor he finds, the Lord will watch over him for his humility ... If your father-confessor has not himself trodden the path of prayer, nevertheless seek counsel of him, and because of your humility the Lord will have mercy on you and keep you from all untruth. But if you think to yourself, 'My confessor lacks experience and is occupied with vain things: I will be my own guide with the help of books,' then your foot is set on a perilous path and you are not far from being beguiled and going astray. I know many such who reasoned thus and so deceived themselves, and who did not thrive because they despised their confessors. They forget that the saving grace of the Holy Spirit is at work in the sacrament of confession."
(Quoted from 'Wisdom from Mount Athos', p. 79-80)

St. Silouan seems to say here that a humble man can indeed "thrive," that is to say, make good progress in the School of the Jesus Prayer, under the personal direction of an *inexperienced* guide, merely by virtue of the grace of the Holy Spirit working in the sacrament of confession itself. Catholicism maintains a similar teaching. Just see the following counsel of Blessed John Tauler, for example:-

"There are people who cling to spiritual things; it is, as it were, as if hair were growing inwards which cannot therefore be detected, yet might be the very thing which hinders them from ever coming into God's presence. Such people might well have lived very pure lives and practised great mortification while, unknown to them, this clinging thing might lie hidden in their inner ground. For those, then, who wish to live for the truth it would be very beneficial if they had a friend of God to whom they could go for spiritual advice and who would direct them according to the Holy Ghost. Unless one is closely acquainted with these people it is very difficult to detect their adherence to things, but they themselves should seek out an experienced friend of God who can show them the right path even if it means walking as much as a hundred miles.

"An ordinary confessor, however indifferent and uneducated a man he may be, will also be of help, as the Holy Ghost speaks through him by virtue of his ministry so that at times he himself does not understand what he is saying. People should submit to their confessor's judgment and follow his advice, instead of depending on their own interpretations. The holy Virgin is a perfect example. When a child, she obeyed her elders, her father and mother, after which she was placed under the supervision of the priest at the Temple. Later she was under the protection of St. Joseph, and then our Lord Jesus Christ took care of her and finally St. John took her unto him, as our Lord commanded him. And thus we should ask her devoutly to take charge of us ... to help us to be reborn into the eternal Source. May God help us to achieve this. Amen." (Quoted from 'Signposts to Perfection: A Selection from the Sermons of Johann Tauler', 1958, p. 117 - 118)

"Having said the above I find the mention of Hieromonk Gabriel Bunge rather disturbing. Any one with knowledge of the extremely difficult 'passover' of Archimandrite Placide Deseille, the formidable challenges, obstacles and deception put in his way by his Roman Catholic superiors, can only wonder at the situation of Hieromonk Bunge. That Father Placide was subsequently received into the Orthodox Church on the Holy Mountain of Athos, of his own volition, which involved Baptism, which is the normal Athonite way of receiving anyone from heterodox confessions, and the incredible shock waves this sent throughout the Roman Catholic Church especially in France and the enormous and very real pressure placed upon the Orthodox Hierarchs in France and Great Britain, due to Father Placide's 'betrayal', only gives vibrant voice to the real nature of the Roman Catholic Church."

Well, since you have felt compelled to bring Father Placide into the discussion, I think it only fair that we let him express how he feels about "the real nature of the Roman Catholic Church." Don't you? So, then, here it is; his exact words:-

"To be sure, we have been 'converted,' in the sense that we have moved from the Roman Church - towards which we remain immensely grateful for all that we have received, from our families and from this Christian people which carried us for so long - to the Orthodox Church ... We have not 'changed Churches': we have only gone from a separated bough of the One Church to the fullness of that Church. We feel ourselves entirely to be of the number of those Western Christians who: 'By asking to be received into the Orthodox Church *have not*, however, denied that which, in the West, and more particularly in their country, before and *since the seperation and schism*, bore the mark of the Spirit of God, Who blows where He wills." (Quoted from 'The Living Witness of the Holy Mountain', the Second Printing, 1999, p. 93)

See that!! According to Father Placide, the Spirit of God has continued to work in the Roman Church, "since the seperation and schism," in some mysterious way and diminished capacity. It is immensely clear to me, from the above, that he in no way, shape, or fashion, is prepared to deny the authenticity and genuine nature of the Christian nurturing that he received from the Roman Church, prior to his being received into Orthodoxy. No where does he even remotely hint that he agrees with the caricature of the Roman Church and religion, as portrayed in 'The River of Fire', for example. Now, I may be wrong about this, but I will, nontheless, be quite frank in saying that I don't feel Father Placide's view of Rome dovetails with yours. Do you think it does? Can you say that you remain "immensely grateful," as he does, to the Roman Church?

"I would caution anyone who feels they can be 'nourished' by great scholars of the Catholic Church. Not one of them, with the exception of Jaroslav Pelikan (who was not Catholic) took the words they so carefully studied and turned their heart towards the Orthodox Church. Not one of them had the courage of Father Placide to be so Christ like and suffer years of ridicule and severe judgement. What is that saying so popular in North American culture?...'walk the talk, and talk the walk' (forgive me if I have not quite got it correctly)."

Need I remind you of Father Placide's words above? To those I would merely add the words of St. Paul, which he spoke concerning Abraham, that he was justified before God while yet uncircumcized and ungodly; and that circumcision was the seal of that justification, not the cause of it. And to this I would also add the words of Jesus, from the Gospel, about the Centurion, of whom He said there was none in all of Israel with a faith greater than this "uncircumcised" Gentile!!

"One can find remarkable similarities between the Jesus Prayer, the Sufi dikhr, the Hindu japa, the Buddhist 'mantra' but that in no way implies that they are ways of prayer leading to transfiguration by the grace of the Triune God of Orthodox Christianity of the human person. If you are an Orthodox Christian and you feel the need to be spiritually nourished by Islamic mysticism, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Native American spirituality, there is something deeply wrong in your dogmatic conception and something very deeply incorrect in your day to day living of the Life in Christ."

Sufism, Hinduism, and Buddhism are irrelevant to the topic at hand, as though they were somehow comparable to, or on the same level as Catholicism. The spirit of such a comparison is reminiscent of the gross caricaturization in 'The River of Fire'; and does not faithfully reflect the mind and spirit of either Bishop Hilarion or Father Placide. This is not at all to deny, however, that some 20th century syncretists in the Catholic Church. These I call Catholics more in name, however, than in reality.

The real question, though, is whether or not there exists in the Roman Church a living tradition of the prayer of the heart and the invocation of the Holy Name of Jesus, and I believe, on several grounds, that there is. And if you had at least read Father Irenee Hausherr's book, on 'The Name of Jesus', you might just have known that. The continual remembrance of God by the practice of unceasing prayer, (in connection with the invocation of the Name of Jesus,) has always existed in the West, to my knowledge, though never under the same external form as in the East.

Efthymios

25-03-2006, 12:09 PM

suggested reading:

A NIGHT IN THE DESERT OF THE HOLY MOUNTAIN

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a _night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mo untain.00.htm (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain. 00.htm)

Fr Seraphim (Black)

25-03-2006, 07:00 PM

Dear Efthymios,

Thank you for the suggested reading.

The book "A Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain" is actually an extended conversation between Father Sophrony (Sakharov) and (then) Hieromonk Hierotheos, which took place in the mid 1970's - highly recommended.

Fr Seraphim (Black)

25-03-2006, 07:03 PM

Theophilus,

Clearly you are seeking a polemical debate. Seek one elsewhere. Roman Catholicism is a very far place from Holy Orthodoxy.

fr. seraphim

Marija

08-05-2006, 05:50 PM

Dear in the Lord, Thomas,

Thank you for sharing your experiences at the Essex monastery. I have as yet never been there, though I intend to go soon, as I live only a short journey away (in Oxford).

As far as I know, it is relatively rare for communal services in a Church to be replaced by versions in which the Jesus Prayer takes the place of most of the usual rubrics. However, this is a fairly common practise in individual prayer rules, especially in some monasteries, where the Hours are said privately, and most of the content replaced by the recitation of the Jesus Prayer as you have described it. There are, in fact, detailed traditional guidelines for how such replacement is to be done (i.e., how many ropes to be said for certain elements of a service replaced, etc), these differing between the Slavic and Greek practises.

Do you (or does anyone else) know of other parishes or monasteries that practise this as a communal regular?

INXC,
Matthew

Christ is risen

There are few monasteries in Macedonia that replace some of the services with the Jesus Prayer. There is a monastery of nuns in the Diocese of Strumica, Theotokos Eleusa, where the nuns say the Prayer all the time, and if there are more than one nun in the same room, they each take turns in saying the prayer out loud. I understand the Spiritual Father of the monastery was inspired by the typicon of the monastery of St. Antony in Arizona. After spending some time in the Monastery of Veljusa according to its typicon, I must say I found it to be an extraordinary experience, placing me on the field of spiritual battle...

Fr Seraphim (Black)

09-05-2006, 12:13 AM

Dear Matthew et al.,

It should be kept in mind that when Fr. Sophrony (Sakharov) came to England and the Community of the St. John the Baptist was founded (1959), the brethern and sisters numbered very few. Fr. Sophrony's health was precarious to say the least and the actual 'life-expectancy' of the Community was stricly in God's hands.

Fr. Sophrony instituted and utilized a form of communal service well-known to him from his years on the Holy Mountain. In my personal experience, to this very day, many, though not all, kellis and sketes, are free to practice this form of Communal Prayer, where a certain number of komboskinis, (Jesus Prayers) are considered the fulfillment of Matins, Vespers etc., which in a larger, more numerous (monastic-wise) Community is not the case, and the expected Vespers, Matins of the liturgical day is perfomed.

Thus, there is absolutely no intention to presume 'x' number of Jesus Prayers fulfill or surpass the normal unfolding of Liturgical Services.

Sadly, there is a certain movement against the 'soi disant' Essex typicon. It is nothing of the sort. For monasteries and convents, say in Romania, to institute this way of Communal Prayer, outside large convents or monasteries, is met by the Church Hierarchy with suspicion.

Grant

11-06-2006, 01:48 AM

I have found it really useful to review these directions from Nicephorus the
Solitary, which have refocussed and inspired me in my own prayer life and I would be interested in a discussion on the subject with other practitioners, with a view to deeper understanding and inspiring each other towards committed practice:

You know that our breathing is the inhaling and exhaling of air. The organ which serves for this is the lungs which lie round the heart, so that the air passing through them envelops the heart. Thus breathing is a natural way to the heart. And so, having collected your mind within you, lead it into the channel of breathing through which air reaches the heart and, together with this inhaled air, force your mind to descend into the heart and to remain there. Accustom it, brother, not to come out of the heart too soon, for at first it feels very lonely in that inner seclusion and imprisonment. But when it gets accustomed to it, it begins on the contrary to dislike its aimless circling outside, for it is no longer unpleasant and wearisome for it to be within. Just as a man who has been away from home, when he returns he is beside himself with joy at seeing again his children and wife, embraces them and cannot talk to them enough, so the mind, when it unites with the heart, is filled with unspeakable joy and delight. Then a man sees that the kingdom of heaven is truly within us; and seeing it now in himself, he strives with pure prayer to keep it and strengthen it there, and regards everything external as not worthy of attention and wholly unattractive.

When you thus enter into the place of the heart, as I have shown you, give
thanks to God and, praising His mercy, keep always to this doing, and it will
teach you things which in no other way will you ever learn. Moreover you should know that when your mind becomes firmly established in the heart, it must not remain there silent and idle, but it should constantly repeat the prayer: 'Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me!' and never cease. For this practise, keeping the mind from dreams, renders it elusive and impenetrable to enemy suggestions and every day leads it more and more to love and longing for God.

If, however, in spite of all your efforts, you do not succeed in entering into
the realm of the heart, as I have described, do what I shall now tell you and,
with God's help, you will find what you seek. You know that in every man inner
talking is in the breast. For, when our lips are silent, it is in the beast that
we talk and discourse with ourselves, pray and sing psalms, and do other things. Thus, having banished every thought from his inner talking (for you can do this if you want to), give it the following short prayer: 'Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me!' - and force it, instead of all other thought, to have only this one constant cry within. If you continue to do this constantly, with your whole attention, then in time this will open for you the way to the heart which I have described. There can no doubt about this, for we have proved it ourselves by experience.

If you do this with strong desire and attention, full of sweetness, a whole host
of virtues will come to you: love, joy, peace and others, through which, later,
every petition of yours will be answered in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord,
to Whom, with the Father and the Holy Ghost, is glory, and power, honour and
worship, now and always, and for ever and ever. Amen. (from Nicephorus the
Solitary)

Grant

John

14-06-2006, 10:38 AM

Fr Raphael Vereshack

14-06-2006, 02:37 PM

Dear everyone,

Is it still true that many elders tell people not to say the Jesus Prayer unless they are monks or nuns, or under some kind of strict obedience to an elder?

I seem to have heard different things: sometimes the above, sometimes that laypeople should say the prayer, simply, even if there is not elder available at all. Sometimes that the prayer should be said in a strict, regimented way, sometimes I've heard that it should be said always, as frequently as possible, when walking down the street and so on.

Is there a clear pattern of advice that comes from the Fathers about this?

-John

The Jesus Prayer can and should be said by all including the laity.

The best way to learn about the Prayer is from continual guidance from others including ones spiritual father and parish priest and others who do the Prayer. Also advice from books is helpful. All of this occurs on an ongoing basis since one cannot learn about the Prayer all at once.

Concerning specific technical instructions this should be left to instruction from a most trusted spiritual father, elder or someone else whom one can have confidence really does know about the Prayer. In the meantime we have to pray the Prayer simply and directly to Christ focussing the words with attention on the area above the heart.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Marielle

23-10-2006, 09:02 PM

greetings to all

i didn't read all the posts in this thread, so i don't know if anyone mentioned this book before

The Way of a Pilgrim: a Russian Orthodox Hermit's Path

i found it very useful.

http://www.hermitary.com/articles/pilgrim.html

Owen Jones

24-10-2006, 05:39 PM

I think it's relevant to point out that the Way of the Pilgrim begins by a description of the paucity of good preaching and teaching in the Church which compels the Pilgrim to find his own way. It was probably written by an educated monastic, not a rustic, but this is the only way to express spiritual reality: by analogy to material things and material processes -- in this case, a journey to Jerusalem. Beautiful!

So what is one to do? Don't wait for the perfect monastic/spiritual father to come along -- begin saying the prayer. But I find it takes an hour for my mind to find freedom from disruptive thoughts. I guess that's about 600 reps. Although as my mind wanders I forget to say the prayer and then I catch myself and return to the prayer. Some times I even nod off. I guess why it is taught to be accompanied by metanias! but we do the best we can with what we've got.

I say it several times a week. Perhaps I will become more disciplined and it will become a daily thing. The goal of the prayer should be obedience, not some expected experience.

Peter Farrington

24-10-2006, 07:54 PM

I read a lot of books about the Jesus Prayer over the Summer and we are doing an evening study on the Jesus Prayer in November for enquirers.

I pray the Jesus Prayer on my drive to work, and then at work using it as an intercession for those I work with and for the others on my prayer list. Sometimes if I am unable to pray the morning office I will pray the Jesus Prayer instead, and I always have my prayer rope in my pocket and pray the Jesus Prayer through the day whenever it comes to mind.

I do also find it personally necessary to try and pray some of the offices as well, since this produces a different and complementary type of formation.

Father Matthew the Poor encourages all Orthodox to pray the Jesus Prayer as they can and not to seek for any experience. And I note that Father Lev Gillet criticises the later Byzantine practice as tending too much to seeking experiences, and I was glad that he said that because as I read through the history of the prayer, as it were, I also had noticed within Byzantine practice a growing focus on particular experiences and a concommitant disparaging of ordinary people praying the prayer.

I think that within Oriental Orthodoxy the older use of the prayer prevails, not as a means of experiencing any sort of vision but as a means of simply standing before God in the heart.

I hope that some of the non-Orthodox folk who come to our evening will also begin to practice the prayer as I believe it is an important means of leading souls to Christ and salvation in the Orthodox Church.

My brother, a failed evangelical, has preserved a spiritual life in his personal spiritual wilderness, through the practice of the Jesus Prayer without even knowing its history or place in the tradition. It is, for him, a way of being close to God.

Peter

Iulian Cabasila

24-10-2006, 08:28 PM

Hi! I've just opened an account with monachos.net

I am interested in finding more about the Jesus Prayer.

My first question is:
Do you happen to know priests and/or monks in the US (especially in the NJ/NY area) that could be helpful spiritual fathers?

Another issue:

The recommendation of Theophan the Recluse is often to avoid mechanical repetition of the Jesus Prayer, that is, praying without concentration and feeling, since what really counts here is not the wording of the Prayer per se, but the appropriate state of the soul. However, Fr. Maximos of Mt. Athos says that the words of the Prayer are crucial by themselves, so that even mechanical repetition is beneficial:

"You see, Kyriaco, embedded in the name of Jesus is the very power of God. By invoking, therefore, the sacred name repeatedly we invite the grace of God to take possession of our hearts and minds, protecting us from harmful effects.
(...) Keep in mind that at the early stages of spiritual practice you must not be concerned with the quality of the prayer, whether your mind is focused on the words or not. Whether you do at that stage, your mind will be wandering. There is no way to avoid that. But the Prayer has its own power and energy. As you repeat it in your mind, or aloud it will have a gradual impact within your psychophysical world" (in Kyriacos C. Markides, The Mountain of Silence, 56).

Can we reconcile the two recommendations?

In Christ,

Iulian (Cabasila)

Bratislav

24-10-2006, 10:22 PM

I think that within Oriental Orthodoxy the older use of the prayer prevails, not as a means of experiencing any sort of vision but as a means of simply standing before God in the heart.

Peter

Looks like we might have some sly non-Chalcedonian/monophysite/miaphysite/oriental orthodox polemic working here. And I will not stand for it. :)

Honestly, though, I think you might have an incorrect idea of the Orthodox practice of the Jesus Prayer. I believe you are probably alluding to the thought of St Symeon the New Theologian and those after him who did indeed emphasize seeing the Uncreated Light. But even in this case, the experience is not sought after for the mere sake of experiencing something, anything "mystical", but because seeing this Light noetically(and sometimes physically) is equivalent to theosis, salvation. What is sought is salvation in Christ, the Light is part and parcel of this goal.

There have been those misguided individuals, and even groups of individuals, who have chased after visions and "experiences", but they were precisely misguided individuals. We call none of them Saints.

-In Christ
Bratislav

"Let no one decieve you! God is Light (1 John 1:5), and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified." - from St Symeon's discourse on God's Light

Antonios

24-10-2006, 10:43 PM

Dear Peter,

Your comment about the seeking of an experience is not what is taught by the EO Church regarding the Jesus Prayer, but rather what you so correctly noted that we 'stand before God'. I think Bratislav's post is correct.

I am also happy to hear that the OO also practice this prayer!

Peter Farrington

25-10-2006, 12:33 PM

Hi Bratislav

I will try to keep my polemic discrete. :-)

Seriously, Father Lev Gillet, who wrote the very useful book The Jesus Prayer, which I have here in Scotland but not with me just now, did point out that there had been a change in the practice of the prayer (I am not saying universally of course), and that there was a seeking after experience (by some I will warrant).

In my own reading I also noted that there was a change in tone and that some writers began saying things like...

"This is the best and easiest way of seeing the uncreated light..."

It struck me then and now that this is an inappropriate attitude when approaching prayer. When I pray the Jesus Prayer I do not want any experience at all. I just want to become more worthy of Christ, closer to Him, closer to thise around me, holier etc etc.

I am glad that it is not a universal approach in EOxy. I do believe that everyone should pray the Jesus Prayer.

The Coptic Orthodox also use the historic Desert Father prayer, in the same manner as the Jesus Prayer,

"O God make speed to save me, O lord make haste to help me".

Indeed it is wonderful to read St John Cassian and discover that the Coptic Orthodox monks live and pray and dress in the same way, after 1700 years.

The previous Coptic Orthodox Patriarch, Pope St Kyrillos, lived for many years as a hermit; as has Pope Shenouda. And the great contemporary Coptic Orthodox spiritual father, Matta el Meskeen, lived in the true desert entirely as the earliest Fathers, and is considered a saint.

So the Desert spirituality is very important to the Coptic Orthodox and remains foundational. Many of the ancient monasteries that were destroyed by the Arabs have been rebuilt, others that were falling into disrepair have been restored. St John Cassian has always been one of my favourite spiritual authors, not least because he helped transmit the Coptic Orthodox spirituality to Ireland. So the idea of standing before God in the heart has always been present in Coptic Orthodoxy and still is.

Best wishes

Peter

Bratislav

25-10-2006, 04:05 PM

In my own reading I also noted that there was a change in tone and that some writers began saying things like...

"This is the best and easiest way of seeing the uncreated light..."

....

It struck me then and now that this is an inappropriate attitude when approaching prayer. When I pray the Jesus Prayer I do not want any experience at all. I just want to become more worthy of Christ, closer to Him, closer to thise around me, holier etc etc.

Dear Peter,

Though I blame myself and my feeble attempts to express my thoughts, I do not think you are getting what I am trying to say.

My understanding is that in the Eastern Orthodox view "seeing the Uncreated Light" and as you say, "becoming more worthy of Christ, closer to Him,...holier", etc are one and the same thing. Not everyone will see the divine Light with their physical eyes in this life but everyone who moves closer to Christ and becomes holier will "at least" noetically see this Light. The reason for this is that the experience of salvation and theosis are not seperated from salvation and theosis themselves. One must necessarily experience illumination if one is actually illumined.

It, then, must be stressed that those who desire to witness the Uncreated Light of God are not foolishly chasing after mere visions and "mystical experiences" like voices and such, and that, correspondingly, those who do chase after such experiences are not following the Orthodox way and are on the path of spiritual delusion.

Anyway...as a side note I wanted to mention that I too have always loved and cherished the writings of St John Cassian.

Hopefully making myself more clear,

Bratislav

Peter Farrington

25-10-2006, 04:26 PM

Hi Bratislav

I don't want to flog a dead horse but the materials I read seemed very clearly to be promoting an experience in contradiction to the earlier tradition which had disparaged visions of anything and which clearly say that the Devil can make lights appear when he wants.

As I posted, it is Father Lev Gillet who describes and criticises this approach and has clearly in view (I'll pull out a reference later) the teaching which you describe.

I am not criticising you at all, I am sure we are in agreement. But if Father Lev Gillet sees a real change in tone then I am less willing to believe that I was mistaken in also finding the same change in tone. Indeed it is also referred to by Father Matta el Meskeen.

But I don't want to repeat myself and I take your own pov as being entirely reasonable.

Best wishes

Peter

Peter Farrington

01-11-2006, 10:37 AM

Fr Raphael Vereshack

01-11-2006, 03:45 PM

Hi

I have the book by Father Lev Gillet here now and the passage I referred to is:

By degrees Athos restricted the Prayer to a fixed formula in which no variations were permitted - ne varietur - and it insisted in particular on the accompanying psycho-physiological technique. In short, Athos exhibited grater rigidity. Something of the tenderness and spontanaeity of Sinai was lost on the Holy Mountain, and this we may regret.

This is what I was suggesting I also sensed.

Best wishes

Peter

I sense from the wording that the author has an issue with 'fixed formulas' and 'tenderness and spontaneity' as if the two are opposed.

Read Staretz Silouan and Archimandrite Sophrony. And how about the most recently known Elders from Joseph the Hesychast to the Elder Arsenios and Charalambos?

In the Jesus Prayer there are not only different words that are commonly used but there is a remarkable difference between the more Russian and Byzantine philosophies about the Prayer- neither of which are wrong. So there are far from 'fixed formulas' in the tradition about the Prayer.

Tenderness in terms of compassion for all creation in a way is the end point of the Prayer but this is done through guidance which always relates to the actual person praying. So tenderness is more correctly personal and guided by humility and obedience than 'spontaneous'.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Peter Farrington

01-11-2006, 04:00 PM

I am only reporting the words of Father Lev Gillet who has written probably the most well known book about the Jesus Prayer in English.

Peter

Fr Raphael Vereshack

01-11-2006, 04:48 PM

I am only reporting the words of Father Lev Gillet who has written probably the most well known book about the Jesus Prayer in English.

Peter

I haven't read this book myself. Quite likely it contains some very good advice.

But we need to keep in mind that there can be no one book or experience which exhausts what the Prayer or anything else in the Church is.

By its very nature no one word, book or experience can entirely capture the Prayer. Each adds to or rounds the edges a bit to what we have previously read. That's why we must read & read and live & live within the total experience of the Church. Each of these adds something.

Of course within this total life of the Church, Fr Lev's book could very well be of use. But we wouldn't just keep to this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

M.C. Steenberg

02-11-2006, 12:24 PM

In my own reading I also noted that there was a change in tone and that some writers began saying things like...

"This is the best and easiest way of seeing the uncreated light..."

It struck me then and now that this is an inappropriate attitude when approaching prayer. When I pray the Jesus Prayer I do not want any experience at all. I just want to become more worthy of Christ, closer to Him, closer to thise around me, holier etc etc.

I would entirely agree with you here. Wanting to rush off and 'behold the uncreated light of God' is something that a lot of armchair ascetics feel the wish to do, usually after reading something akin to St Symeon the New Theologian without guidance.

But this approach to prayer, and to the prayer of the heart in particular, is essentially anathema to Orthodoxy. I know of no solid Orthodox writer who suggests anything other than its being grounded in a deeply flawed understanding of prayer and union with God.

That the hesychastic tradition in particular is in some sense about beholding visions and attaining ecstatic experiences, is itself a deeply flawed conception of this tradition -- both as it developed as a 'school' on Athos in the 13th century, and also as it exists today much more broadly as the overarching context of interior prayer.

I don't want to flog a dead horse but the materials I read seemed very clearly to be promoting an experience in contradiction to the earlier tradition which had disparaged visions of anything and which clearly say that the Devil can make lights appear when he wants.

As I posted, it is Father Lev Gillet who describes and criticises this approach and has clearly in view (I'll pull out a reference later) the teaching which you describe.

I would be very keen to read any such quotation! As I say, I've never encountered an Orthodox writer who promoted such things (it seems a very basic, fundamental misunderstanding of prayer).

I have the book by Father Lev Gillet here now and the passage I referred to is:

By degrees Athos restricted the Prayer to a fixed formula in which no variations were permitted - ne varietur - and it insisted in particular on the accompanying psycho-physiological technique. In short, Athos exhibited grater rigidity. Something of the tenderness and spontanaeity of Sinai was lost on the Holy Mountain, and this we may regret.

Ah, but this is not at all the same thing. The so-called 'psychosomatic technique' (such as it is) is not about attaining a vision or experience; it is about treating the mind and the body as a single unit, a concrete whole of interrelated parts, in which each effects the other. Thus there are bodily ways to calm and quiet the mind.

As to Fr Lev's comments on 'restricting' the formula of the Jesus prayer: these are in a real sense inaccurate. Certainly there was a consolidation around the traditional formula of the prayer ('Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner') -- but this never was, and isn't now, the only form in use on the mountain. Indeed, some of the greatest hesychasts of recent generations have spoken about the prayer reaching its purest form in simply the word 'Jesus', or other forms of the prayer.

But the basic idea of reducing 'spontineity' is of course part and parcel of authentic practice of the Jesus Prayer. Spontaneous prayer is not devalued; but it is not what this tradition emphasises.

INXC, Matthew