The prayer rope

[Kempis]

I'm looking for a supplier of sturdy prayer ropes. I recently ordered one and it fell apart in a couple of days. Is it acceptible to Orthodox tradition to use a rosary styled komboskinia, I mean wood beads and chain? Any thoughts on the prayer rope? I've been using mine during orthos is this an accepted practice?

[Archimandrite Gregory]

You might try this address: http://www.easternchristian.com/prayer-ropes.html this is where we get our prayer ropes and they seem to stand up rather well.

In Him Who calls us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!

[Melissa]

Kempis - I've ordered some prayer ropes from the Eastern Christian Supply Store, and they were very nice; several styles and sizes. My order came promptly and the people were good to deal with. www.easternchristian.com (http://www.easternchristian.com).
Melissa

[Geoffrey Franklin Mill]

What exactly is a prayer rope, and what is its significance? Does it symbolize anything? What is the history behind it? What is the proper way to use it? Why must there be a specific number of knots in it?

[Irene]

Hi Geoffrey, When I was first given a prayer rope I was told to start with the Our Father, then pray "Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinner"s until I get to the hard bead/coloured bead do the prayer to the Mother of God "Virgin Mother of God, Mary full of Grace rejoice ....." repeating the Jesus prayer and prayer to the Virgin Mary in this way until the end of the rope where you do the Our Father again.

That was told to me by a deacon and I didn't know any other way. My Priest has since told me to pray for different people by replacing the "have mercy on me" by saying "have mercy on (name)" over and over when there is cases of need or when I need to learn to forgive that person. So there must be quite a few ways to use it. Going for a walk and praying with the prayer beads is nice, and if you keep them wrapped around your wrist or somewhere close by you can use them at any time during day that you have to be idle - eg queing for something.

Monastics always seem to be using one when they are not working with their hands.

At the monastery where I go to Church they sell 3 different sizes. 100 knots, 50 knots and 33 knots. I don't remember the significance although I believe I have been told.

Here is a site I have had bookmarked for ages that shows the work that goes into making prayer beads (It does have huge pictures though). http://www.wattfamily.org/prayerope.html

In Christ
irene

[Eugene]

Thanks Irene, this link is interesting.

Geoffrey, the prayer rope doesn't symbloize anything, it doesn't have to have a specific number of knots. The number of knost in a portion of a hundred just makes it easier to count the total number of prayers in hundreds (that's why there are 100, 50 and 33 knot ropes). The rope is just a handy tool to make seaseless Jesus prayer a habit, to concentrate on Jesus prayer and keep it unseasing.

The traditional Greek monastic prayer rope is made of just rope. But many people use prayer rope with wooden (or made of other solid material) beads. I've seen laypeople and even monastics using it, and that's what I'm using too. The benefit of such a rope is that it's easier to use it while keeping your hand in your pocket so that other peolple don't see it when you are praying with the rope. This is useful when you pray in a situation when there are other people around you.

[Geoffrey Miller]

Why wouldn't you want other people to know you're praying?

[Eugene]

Hmm ..., I guess simple humility (if I have any http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/uhoh.gif). I would better show beople the Love of God that I have for them (again, as much as I have), rather then my piety and technicalities like prayer ropes. This is what some elders recommend for laypeople anyway. But it's personal, if you don't mind other people to see that you are praying, it's OK, just be careful and watch you vainglory (again, if you have any http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif )

[Ken McRae]

St. Matthew's Gospel 6:5-6

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet (cell), and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

[Moses Anthony]

Probably the main reason is that Jesus said, "Pray to your Father in secret... and, also do not be as the Pharisees who love to pray to be seen by men. I tell you they have their reward."

I must say that in praying where I could be seen, I've been heavily influenced by reading about Fr. Arseny.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Geoffrey Miller]

First of all, thanks for the advice.

However, I think I might have phrased my question wrong. I'm not talking about showing off when praying. I'm just wondering if it's wrong to deliderately conceal your faith in Jesus for fear of embarresement or condemnation.

[Kevin Teo]

I am interested to know about the history and origins of the prayer rope(or prayer girdle as some call it). It is probably very different in use from the Catholic rosary, which is an object heavily shrouded in legend, since the tradition for its use goes that St Dominic had a vision of the Virgin Theotokos telling him to pray the rounds of the rosary with the Lord's prayer and Hail mary, but later scholars and theologians have suggested that this is something rather much unsubstantiated in terms of the claim of the Marian apparition, and is still very much more tradition than common catholic theology. How different is the prayer rope from the rosary?

[Irene]

Dear Geoffrey,

I understand what the other guys are saying about praying in secret, as a former Presbytarian our Minister emphasised the praying in secret. As an Orthodox Convert praying in secret is good when you or your Spiritual Father realises that you may easily become proud of yourself for doing this, like showing off.

However, now, as I am supposed to be part of a new lay ministry we are trying to get our families to be more open about being Orthodox. We are trying to make sure that we do pray a little in public - eg when eating out - before the meal. Not loud and showy, just doing it and not being embarrassed or ashamed about being different.

Some of our members are finding that, by being a little bit, publicly Orthodox, that people are coming up and asking why are you doing that and getting into conversations about Orthodoxy. People are actually showing a tiny bit of interest and may at some later date actually come to our services.

So in some cases I don't think it is good to be too secretive. It is however something that you need to talk over with your Priest and you need to be wary of yourself and not let pride puff you up.

I personally am a bit of both, definitely inclined to pride and yet find it hard to pray/cross myself in public because I feel uncomfortable. So I am often in a tug-of-war with myself.

In Christ
irene

[Janine Economides]

I thought that the early monastics in the desert used pebbles originally to= =20 repeat the Jesus Prayer, or another phrase from psalms or gospels such as=20 "Lord make haste to help me." This originally came about as an attempt to= =20 follow the instruction to pray without ceasing, and of course this is the=20 same basis for the practice of the Jesus prayer today. The way I have=20 heard it is that eventually the pebbles were strung and then later knots on= =20 a rope were used. But probably others on this list know this better than I= do.

[Janine Economides]

Sorry I don't know why my email is making those weird symbols.

[Irene]

Dear Kevin,

I found this article on the history of prayer beads interesting.
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/prayerrope.htm

Here is an extract from another web page: "Prayer Ropes: Most often they are made of black wool or silky lace (soutache). The black colour symbolises repentance. Still, in the present prayer ropes can be of various colours. The smallest ones have 33 knots. There are also prayer ropes with 50 or 100 knots. Monastics sometimes use prayer ropes with 300, 500, or 1000 knots.

We use the prayer rope to count the Jesus prayers, which we say aloud or inaudibly when we pray, while the attention of the mind is concentrated on the prayer words: "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me (us)". Each knot marks one prayer said.

Tradition has it that somewhere around in the fourth century AD an angel of the Lord revealed the skill of knitting prayer ropes to a monk in the desert after he had fervently prayed, since demons had deliberately tempted him and he could not fulfil thoroughly his prayer rule. The angel taught him to knit the prayer knots in a way that each knot consisted of seven cruciform small inner knots, which the demon could not untie.

Monastics knit them in their cells, while repeatedly saying the Jesus prayer. When they knit a prayer rope especially for someone, they pray for that person who will use the prayer rope in the future."

Also, the owner of the website I mentioned in an earlier msg, that shows how to make prayer ropes, very kindly replied to my question he said: " There really isn't any significance. It is a method to count prayers. Most monasteries will use multiples of 100, so those ropes tend to be more common
there. My former Bishop, His Grace Bishop BASIL, indicated that spiritual
fathers under his care would use multiple of 10s for laity. 33 knots can be
used three times and reach 100. It also fits most wrists quite well.

The ropes are not used with a set prayer like the Roman Catholic Rosary, but
is generally used with the Jesus prayer, so the structure is not terribly
relevant. Consult your spiritual father or mother for specifics on how you
might use a prayer rope."

In Christ
irene

[Janine Economides]

Why wouldn't I want other people to know I'm praying? When it's going to distract me from my prayer, and from the Person I'm praying to in relationship. I don't need to make it obvious to people in a Board Meeting that I'm praying, or in a courtroom or even in the shoe store. It's not really any of their business, and frankly the "showing off" part of it is bound to conflict with my focus on the prayer. (I'm not talking about saying grace, etc.) I can pray ceaselessly in my heart without inviting others to be challenged by it, much better than if in some way it's going to be an open effect on others in some distracting sense. And we Orthodox btw are not great proselytizers. But, FWIW, I use my prayer rope all the time anyway. Most people don't notice or have no idea what I'm doing.

[Janine Economides]

PS I'm happy to tell people what my rope is. Most find it very interesting and quite beautiful.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Geoffrey,
For the answer to your question I suggest you read either of five sources; The Gospels, or The Acts of The Apostles.



the sinful and unworthy servant

[Effie Ganatsios]

I have been using my prayer rope for a number of years now. I start at the cross and say the Jesus Prayer for each knot, while breathing in and out very slowly. When I get to the shiny bead in the middle of my prayer rope I recite Psalm 23. I then continue with the Jesus prayer until I get to the cross and then finish with the Lord's prayer.

I use my prayer rope after saying my evening prayers and find that it is a good way of ending each day. I have read that 1/2 an hour in the morning and 1/2 an hour in the evening is recommended but I can't seem to concentrate so well in the morning.

Effie

p.s. Irene, would you be kind enough to post the full "Virgin Mother of God, Mary full of Grace rejoice ....." prayer. My daily prayer to the Theotokos starts with "O My most holy Lady,....".

Thank you.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Something I forgot to mention :

I agree that praying is a private matter (except when in church or when praying with your family) and I have never seen anyone using a prayer rope in public although quite a few people wear the smaller prayer ropes on their wrists.

I agree with James A Anthony's observation :

"Probably the main reason is that Jesus said, "Pray to your Father in secret... and, also do not be as the Pharisees who love to pray to be seen by men. I tell you they have their reward."

A prayer rope is used by lay people to help them pray and is a good device to monitor the length of your prayers. When in public the Jesus prayer or any other prayer can be said silently.

This is my personal opinion of course and not in any way a criticism of those who think otherwise.

Effie

[Janine]

Hi Effie. A friend of mine attended a conference on Thomas Merton. She told me that Bishop Kallistos Ware was there, and when he was sitting as a member of the audience listening to the presentations, he constantly used his prayer rope. This was not a church event - it was a scholarly conference.

[Janine]

PS I generally wear my prayer rope wrapped around my wrist when I'm not using it.

[Irene]

Dear Effie,

Virgin Mother of God, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, for Thou hast born the Saviour of our souls.

In Christ
irene

(Message edited by Caryn on 20 January, 2005)

[David]

I've read in different sources that the 33 knots symbolise the 33 yrs that Our Lord lived on this earth. I've also seen that the Copts use 40 beads or knots in homor of the 40 lashes of the Scrouging.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Janine, I know that monks use their prayer ropes constantly - I just haven't seen laymen using them in public.

Thinking about what you said concerning Bishop Ware and his use of his prayer rope during a scholerly conference, I can only say that I'm personally not capable of doing two things at the same time - Praying and listening to what is being said in a conference. I know that the Prayer of the Heart starts in the mind and graduates to the heart where the prayer never stops... even when someone is involved in his everyday activities. Janine I am still at an early stage and am not spiritually capable of doing this - I probably never will be given my inconsistency - but those that are are blessed..

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Irene, thank you for the prayer.

I find that I do have it - Song to the Most Holy Theotokos.

I correspond with a monk on Mt. Athos (Father Maximus Moschos) and he has given me a "Proposal for Daily Prayer" using the prayer rope.

Perhaps it would interest you if I post it here :

1. 300 knots "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me"

2. 100 knots "All-holy Theotokos, save me"

3. 100 knots "All Saints intercede for me"
(Some Saints may be included by name, especially those being commemorated on a particular day)

4. 40 knots "Lord Jesus Christ give rest to the souls of those who have fallen asleep"

5. 25 knots "Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us"
(For relatives and friends"

etc.

He recommends making the sign of the cross at each knot and states that " all of this must be done with an attitude of reverence and with concentration of the mind upon what is being said and done".

Thanks again for posting the prayer.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Irene, one thing more (sorry, but I constantly do this - I post my message and then find I have forgotten something that I wanted to say).

Father Maximus also recommends 100 knots - without making the sign of the cross at each knot and silently with the mind in the heart say :
"Lord Jesus Christ." while inhaling, and while exhaling say : "have mercy on me."

Something else that he has included and that I especially like is the following "biblical principle to apply in our daily struggle for Christian living" :

Learn the music and hymnody of the Church :
"..psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart"
(Eph. 5,19)

We sometimes become so intense about our faith that we forget that one of the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" is Joy.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The following is a more accurate translation from the Greek & Slavonic of the hymn to the Theotokos referred to above.


"O Theotokos & Virgin, rejoice! O Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb; for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls."

Note the reference to "Christ" is not in the original.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Janine]

Hi again Effie. Don't worry about all the "shoulds" or whether or not you do things right or wrong, or count enough repetitions. Remember to keep in mind it is the Spirit that is supposed to be leading us, and the Spirit is "beyond you in your Center," in your heart. (quoting Anthony Bloom, among others) Sometimes we will need silence and not repetition. Just keep your intention to be open to God strong. Feeling bad about not following rules closely is counter-productive. Just do your best, that's what God wants.

[Effie Ganatsios]

That's about what I do, Janine. I keep the rules in mind and try to follow them but even the rules are given just as a guide. I agree that it's more important to say a 5 minute prayer when you really mean it rather than a 2 hr. prayer when your mind is somewhere else.

Thanks Janine.

Effie

[Irene]

Hi David, I have heard that somewhere too, and it makes sense - the 33 knots for 33 years.

[Denise King]

Hello, I am rather new to this board. I have found that using a prayer rope distracts me more than it helps me to concentrate on prayer. I become more concerned with whether I have moved on to the next knot. So I have stopped using my (albeit) small prayer rope. I also do not concentrate on breathing - I let that take care of itself. But I am still very much a beginner - please let me know if I am making any "big" mistakes. Denise

[Janine]

Denise, in my opinion the important thing is the prayer. Do what works best. Sometime you may find that changes, and that is fine too. Our place in the prayer grows through time and so does our relationship with God. It is not a stagnant thing. The important thing is the prayer, the relationship with God.

[Janine]

PS Some fathers never teach breathing techniques and say it should not be taught outside the monastery either. Again, the important thing is the prayer and your growth in the prayer. Do what works best, and allow that this may change through time anyway.

[Elizabeth Riggs]

Effie -

There will be opinions of all kinds from different people. Stick closely to what your Spiritual Father tells you. Practice is what helps with prayer - the more you pray, the better you get - up to a point. Early on, you need to learn to clear your mind and quiet your heart - to center. Later, you will be working on maintaining your intensity - because that departs at various times. Learn your prayers by heart so you are not as totally dependent on a prayer book. Your advisor's suggestion to learn the Troparia and Kontakia of the Church is excellent.

I listed to "Ancient Faith Radio" - a web-based radio station that plays Orthodox Music and tapes 24/7.
http://www.ancientfaithradio.com
I have learned several new Troparia that I didn't already know by just by listening (I've been singing in Orthodox Choirs for 27 years, now). Recently they have been playing tapes of someone reading from St. Ephraim the Syrian's A Spiritual Psalter. I wish I could record those from Real Player, I can tell you! You might find this a good adjunct to your prayer life.
Love in Christ,
Elizabeth, the sinner
and Perennial Student

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Elizabeth.

I agree with what you say. Each person is different and what works for one might not work as well for another.

Concerning learning prayers by heart : this is also recommended by St. Theophan the Recluse and he also recommends praying with a prayer rope. The important thing is to "stand before God with the mind in the heart with devotion and heartfelt prostration to Him."

St. Theophan says that if, because of our various weaknesses, one form of prayer doesn't move us on any particular day we can then try another form.
"Thus, things will go better. I (St. Theophan) will repeat once again that the essence of prayer is the lifting of the mind and heart to God; these little rules are an aid. We cannot get by without them because of our weakness."

Thanks for the link to ancientfaithradio. I will definitely visit this site.

Effie

[George Hawkins]

Effie! I am glad you are back on line. I have been wanting to ask you about your fried Maria who has cancer. How is she? I have remembered her daily since you posted about her.
George

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi George, nice to be back.

My friend Maria, unfortunately, died in July. Her parents brought her body back to Greece and buried her next to her grandparents. They now live here and wanted to be able to visit her.
The whole thing is still very painful for me and the only thing I can do is include her in my daily prayers when I get to the "prayer for the departed" and also ring her mother regularly - it seems to help her to be able to speak about Maria.

Her mother was also very close to me when I was growing up so I feel for her as if she were my own mother.

George, the first thing I did when I was reconnected to the Internet was visit Monarchos net to find out about Father Averky. He e-mailed me a few times so I knew just how bad his situation was but I didn't expect him to die as he had been in very bad health in the past and managed to pull through.

May God rest both Maria and Father Averky's souls.

Thanks for welcoming me back.

effie

[George Hawkins]

Memory Eternal! I will add Maria to my commemoration book.

May God grant her rest with the Righteous. +

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thank you George for Maria.

I really miss Father Averky. He was an integral part of this forum for me. It just doesn't seem the same - I used to read all his posts because I always found them interesting. Two of the nicest things about him were his kindness and his humility.



Effie

[George Hawkins]

I miss Fr Averkey a lot too. We often wrote emails to each other and he gave me so much advice. I was blessed enough to be able to talk to him by phone when he was in hospital shortly before he reposed. He sounded so young and vibrant!
Memory eternal!

[[George] Blaisdell]

I recently acquired a 300 knot prayer rope made in Romania. The knot arrangement has me puzzled.

There are 40 knots on each side of the cross-tassle, then a silver cross bead, then 110 knots on each side to the dividing center bead.

Does anyone know the meaning and usage of this arrangement? I received it through the mail, thinking it would be divided into 100 knot segments, or even 50s, and it is the 100s that I use... The 40s and 110s are messing me up! My three little ropes are turning into a mathmatical exercise...

Arsenios - Who has trouble praying and counting at the same time...

[Kosmas Damianides]

I have one of those. i think that you are supposed to wear them around your neck.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/biggrin.gif I think bishops wear them instead of the engolpion. Oh yeah...they are also supposed to be used for prayer.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/proud.gif

[Theopesta]

1- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_rope

2- http://aggreen.net/monasteries/prayrope.html

pray for me

[Theopesta]

http://www.st-george-church.org/English/Prayer_Rope.htm

I hope you find you want, neerly 300 knots are romanian

[Xenia Rose]

Arsenios, about the arrangement of the knots. I believe, and I should say I am not an expert on anything, that the arrangment of 40 helps them to count out the 40 times to say "Lord Have Mercy" in services.

I have also read somewhere that one of the purposes of the prayer rope was originally because the Psalter could not be read. Reading is something we take for granted but for much of Christian history, only a minority could read.

I would love to wear a prayer rope as a reminder to me to pray, but I am allergic to wool. I bought a rayon prayer rope that I carry in my purse, but it has a tassel and I can't just wear it because of that. I saw the tape linked above about making one but it looks so complicated.

For now, when I am sitting waitng at the doctor's office, when I recently had some medical tests done that was uncomfortable, or sometimes just whenever...doing dishes, etc, I will say the "Jesus Prayer" without counting, if if I must count, I use my fingers (as I do when saying my morning and evening prayers to count out the 12 or 40 "Lord have Mercy".

I have a rosary and I have used that too. I don't think that the material thing used to help one pray is important. What is important is that one prays.

Again, don't take my word as authoritative. I am just a convert and a layperson.

[Arsenios]

Thank-you Xenia - The 40 would indeed be valuable for the counting in services [Orthros, especially]...

Look, I am having a prayer rope made at the monastery out of Lama 'wool', which is hollow, without oil, and non allergenic. If you would like, and if they are indeed able to make them with it, I can perhaps get you one made.

Contact me off list if you wish - I would be happy to arrange that for you...

Arsenios

[katya the nurse-aid]

ooh dear dear...i have nothing to do with this world nothing at all...said St.Antony and run to the wildest desert!http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/biggrin.gif

[Trudy]

A friend has kindly given me two prayer ropes she made. One is 50 knots and the other is 100 knots. My priest has given me his blessing to use them in my prayer rule but has no knowledge of how they are to be used except that they be carried in one's pocket and when temptation is expereinced to reach in and say the Jesus Prayer. He cannot give me any thing more specific. He did give me permission to seek out help from elsewhere since he couldn't do so. I have tried inquiring via email to Fr. Seraphim, who has posted on this discussion board, but I am afraid he may not be well since I've not heard from him in some weeks.

Is it possible and appropriate for one of the priests on this list, or perhaps a monastic, to give me instruction on how best to incorporate the prayer rope into my prayer rule since my priest cannot?

Please contact me offlist as I believe that would be more appropriate than doing so on-list. If my request is inappropriate altogether, please forgive me for my ignorance and offending anyone, and I seek to be corrected.

Thank you all for your patience with my selfish request.

Sincerely in Christ, Athanasia

[Father David Moser]

Athanasia,

The prayer rope is usually used in a prayer rule as a "counter" to give yourself the discipline of saying the same number of prayers every day. There are a number of ways to determine what that number should be. One method that I use is to adopt an established monastic prayer rule (see: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/cellrule.aspx ) with modifications for the fact that I live in the world and not in a monastery. With the above prayer rule (the cell rule of Optina Monastery) I essentially cut each segment in half so I say something like 150 Jesus prayers, 50 prayer to the Mother of God, 25 to the guaridan angel and 25 to the saints.This rule, along with my intercessory prayers for family, spiritual children, parish, friends etc takes me about 30 min. That is my rule for using the prayer rope.

There are many other ways of establishing a prayer discipline, it is really something you need to talk about with your priest since he is your spiritual father and the one who knows your spiritual condition and capacity the best. Here are some links to basic articles about the prayer rope and the Jesus Prayer that may help you and he.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/comboschini.aspx
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/jesusprayer.aspx
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayrule.aspx

There are a quite a few additional articles on the same page as these which might be of interest.

Archpr. David Moser

[Trudy]

Dear Fr. David,

Thank you for the links. I do have that website bookmarked but always forget to go there to research something! Thank you for the reminder.

One thing I am learning, and struggling with still sometimes, is that prayer doesn't have to be 60 minutes long to "count." For some odd reason I got that notion into my head that if my prayer is shorter than 30 minutes then there is something wrong with me. So thank you for sharing your prayer rule with me, noting how long you pray. It has been an encouragement and a good reminder that any amount of time in prayer is good. The idea is "to pray"!!

Kissing Your Right Hand, Athanasia

[Father David Moser]

Just for perspective, when I am working with a "beginner" in prayer - someone who has difficulty even with just morning and evening prayers - I will suggest that they simply set aside 5 or 10 min for prayer and without counting or enumerating a certain number of prayers, that they just fill that time with prayer with no concern for "how many" prayers they say, just that the time is filled exclusively with prayer.

Prot. David

[Klod]

Noetic prayer is done best when one's mind is in hell, while not despairing, when praying is part of a inseparable spiritual cleansing.

But the most important thing is to be under a so to say sacramentally led guidance, i.e within a good spiritual Father guidance.

[Robert Hegwood]

I have read of this thing many times over the years, but never enountered a very explict description of what is meant by the phrase "keeping one's mind in hell". What is it to do this?

[Antonios]

Hell is to be estranged or 'separated' from God. Thus, if we keep in mind that it is because of our corruption and sinfulness that keeps us estranged from God, our hearts will soften, grow more contrite, and we become more humble when we pray. This all aids in bringing the mind 'into the heart' which is noetic prayer.

Because our God is an ever-merciful and loving God, the tears that are then shed from noetic prayer are those of burning contrition, fearful reverance, and unutterable repentant joy, and not of hopeless despair.

in humilty and love,
Antonios

[Klod]

The risk of spiritual life, when one embraces external and formal devotions, which are good and necessary, is that man, in accordance with his inclinations of fallen nature, thinks of himself as hightened, which in reality is pride, instead of aspiring in humbling himself, which in reality should be the aim of spiritual life.


It is in here that God allowes a combatant in spiritual strugle to suffer from different weakenesses, some even from various demonic afflictions, as it was the case with Saint Siluanos. That is because the combatant should change his ways and humble himself, in thinking that he is worth of nothing good, even more that he deserves punishment of eternal damnation.


Our, of each one of us, experience has proved, I believe, that this feeling comes along with a temptation of despair, of thinking that we CANNOT advance in spiritual strugle, since the reality has shown us to be too weak and sinful.


This is where a good combatant should realise that this feeling is pride of failure, not sorrow or repentance. And here one should turn to God to protect him from despairing, and to help him continue his strugle despite the FACT of being unworthy and weak.


That is too keep mind in hell, but not to despair. To continue the spiritual strugle within this perspective.

[Robert Hegwood]

It seems to me then that to actually be able to keep one's mind in hell with our without despair, one would need a very penetrating revelation of their own shortcomings.

At present this would be hard for me...I am more "intellectually" aware of my failures and sin than perceptive of them, if that makes sense.

There is no doubt that I am unworthy of heaven, or that my sins blind me and seperate me from God, and yet I am aware of His mercy and forebearance....indeed lost beyond hope without it.

Years ago I came across the story of an old abba nearing the end of his earthly pilgrimage and his disciples asked him what he should say to the Lord when asked if he should go to heaven or hell. The abba replied that he would say, "wherever thy love places me, O Lord."

That story stuck with me...and though it is difficult indeed to conceptualize going to hell, at the same time this story reminds me of our Lord's all encompasing love...so that even if (God forbid) hell is my lot I cannot help but see even that, as painful as it would be, as an expression of His love for me.

Maybe I just need a better look at myself from within granted by His Spirit. As it stands, I know it sounds very cavilier. Yet that said...it is hard to imagine despairing..or coming close while I know that He loves me in spite of my abysmal failures as a Christian

[Vasilis Kirikos]

> Is it true that The Orthodox Church looks down on nationalism ?

[Antonios]

I am more "intellectually" aware of my failures and sin than perceptive of them, if that makes sense.

Robert,

Could you expand on that a little?

[Robert Hegwood]

Dear Antonios,

I mean I know in my head that my sins run deep, and that I am far from spiritual, but the weight and importance of that...as an impetus to persue a life of repentance with humility and constancy...that deep heart awareness of how far I am from what I ought to be, from what Christ our Lord is, that deep interior sense of my own sinfulness is very thin,

My attitudes towards my short comings is too laid back, too cavilieer, probably what St. John of the Ladder called indifference... Somehow the knowledge of my true spiritual state...does not affect me as its seems tht it should. It is somethign I know in my head, but far less well in my heart.

[Klod]

Dear Robert,

actually, your situation, I think, makes it clear and proves that intellect is the lowest point where God amd man encounter each other.


If that makes you too laid back to think of an advanced spiritual life, then this is the above mentioned DESPAIR, which brings, as you quoted from St. John of the Ladder, indifference.


It is in here that you ought to understand that not fully intellectual awareness, but continuation of a strugle which you cannot yet intellectually see, will bring you a deeper understanding of your failure, or of the "hell" in which you have to abide, while you live as a victor.




The reason I am saying all this is that Chomboskini (prayer rope) it has to be done within this sense of strugle. Otherwise the Fathers have expressed that there is a great danger of Deceiveness in those who practice it merely as a method of prayer.

[Marie-Duquette]

Klod thank you for your simple and insightful comments concerning "keeping one's mind in hell" while praying the Prayer Rope/Jesus Prayer.

I believe that it also takes a lot of "patience and endurance" in the staying with the Prayer despite the anxieties that arise while one's slowly deepening awaresness of sinfulness and corruption arises in the soul, which does indeed -- in my experience -- mean struggle, struggle, but without despair. The struggle I find comes not only in perceiving one's failings, but in accepting them as part of one's fallen nature.

Not to forget that despite the "mind being in hell" while committing to the Prayer of Jesus that God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, is Present in the midst of the struggle. And, that without Presence of God's Grace true despair could creep in through the deception of the evil one. So TRUST in God, Being in the shelter of His Presence is of utmost importance. ref. Psalm 90

I found this quote from Saint Silouane's Writings:


In the past, I thought the Lord only did miracles in response to the prayers of the saints, but now I have understood that the Lord also does miracles for the sinner as soon as his soul humbles itself: for when a person learns humility, the Lord hears his prayers.

Many inexperienced people say that such and such a saint worked a miracle, but I have understood that it is the Holy Spirit dwelling in the person who does the miracles. The Lord wants everyone to be saved and to live with him eternally, and that is why he hears the prayers that the sinner brings before him for the good of others or for his own good.

So, in Praying the Jesus Prayer with our "minds in hell" never will despair enter if it is done with Trust, Humility, and Perseverance.

pray for me a sinner,
marie_duquette

[Anthony]

With the above prayer rule (the cell rule of Optina Monastery) I essentially cut each segment in half so I say something like 150 Jesus prayers, 50 prayer to the Mother of God, 25 to the guaridan angel and 25 to the saints.

Dear Fr. David,

What are the prayers that are used in this case to the guardian angel and the saints?

[Father David Moser]

What are the prayers that are used in this case to the guardian angel and the saints?

To the guardian angel I use: Holy Angel of God, my guide and guardian, pray to God for me.

For the saints I use: All saints of God pray to God for us.

If I address my prayer to a particular saint I way: Holy Father (Mother) N. pray to God for me.

Prot. David

[Patrick Walsh]

Father David
Blessings

In the old slavonic prayer book (not to be confused with the Old Believer's prayer book) there is a list of one line prayers such as:

"O Holy Hierarchs St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian, St. John Chrysostom, pray for me a sinner."

There are a number of these. Some of them are even structured to allow you to pray for other people, "pray for <so-and-so>, a sinner."

My question is, can any of these prayers be used on the prayer rope? They seem to be perfectly ideal for this.

Patrick

[Father David Moser]

Of course they can.

Prot. David

[M.C. Steenberg]

There is an interesting 'apothegm' of elder Ephraim of Katounaikia (on Mt Athos), told in various ways with different details and persons (probably because it was a common teaching of his, said to and eventually reported/shared by many). In essence it boils down to this: various individuals approached him and asked about prayer with the rope, and specifically about replacing 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me' with 'have mercy on my mother', or father, or some other person. In certain contexts he was known to reply that this was suitable, as long as 'a sinner', which normally follows 'me' in the recitation of the prayer, was not included when one inserted the name of another -- for we are not to judge our neighbour. But in other contexts he would remark that the interior prayer of the heart is fundamentally a prayer of deep communion with God, communion beyond the words uttered, which engage it. It is the communion which allows the desires and needs of the heart to be known, beyond the words.

INXC, Matthew

[Theopesta]

could we say:
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on [name of person] as he weak or as he need"?
In ONE CHRIST

[Zavulon]

Dear friends,

I know from the Holy fathers that we can pray with Jesus prayer what ever we our doing at the moment, whether we are working or going to job, or anything else.
I am wandering what is an orthodox view about - walking prayer. I am not thinking about contemporary Protestant prayer walking down the street "talking" with God. But I am thinking of practice in some catholic convicts, where monks are walking in a line, following specific prayer either loud or silent, but they all follow the rhythm of steps. Usually these convicts are in square so they are walking in row praying around on inner balcony. This specific walking prayer is called a retreat, and I thing it is connected with tradition of Bonaventura.

Zavulon

[Theopesta]

we have in the monastic tradation old monks advice the young monk to not return to his cell with his confused thoughts, but instead he can walk around in the wilderness till the thoughts become calm and silent as the the silence of the wilderness

[Father David Moser]

Zavulon,

I don't know about the specific "retreat" prayer of which you speak, however I can share with you my own practice. I have a daily rule (which I think I already mentioned) that I say while walking. The activity of walking has little to do with the rhythm of prayer (although the prayer does sometimes fall into the rhythm of my steps), rather it provides a particular structure and context for my prayer. By taking a familiar walk, I am away from the distractions of daily life that I would otherwise face. I can walk and pray the prayers without having to attend to the surroundings and without interruption. If you are walking and seemingly self absorbed, usually people don't interrupt you, but out of courtesy just walk on by without any consideration of rudeness. Also by going on a walk I don't cut my time short - I'm already committed to a certain amount of time simply based on the mechanics of how long it takes to go from one place to the other and back again. I don't think that there is any kind of a problem with walking and praying. BTW, when I established this habit, my spiritual father also told me that he does the same thing - it helped him to keep his discipline as well.

Fr David Moser

[J. A. McIntyre]

Floss vs. woolen ropes? The floss looks shinny, does it come undone easlier then the woolen ropes?

[Peter Farrington]

I haven't known floss or woollen ropes come undone, either mine or ones that folk at Church use, but I much prefer the feel of woollen ropes.

Peter