Prayer for non-Orthodox deceased

[Basil Shannon]

What would an appropriate prayer be to offer for loved ones who have died outside the Church? I have been given one from a friend which asks for God's mercy, but to let God's will be done. Is it appropriate to pray at their graves?

Thanks.

Basil

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Bishop Basil of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America once recommended the Akathist for the Departed (http://users.sisqtel.net/williams/akathist-repose.html) to me. I hope you find it as beneficial as I have.

Aaron

[Basil Shannon]

Thank you for that link.

We cannot commemorate deceased heterdox or non-Christian loved ones in our services, but is it okay to say this akathist for them? I am in Bishop Basil's archdiocese, so I'll gladly take any advice you have received from him.

Basil

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Here is a prayer to the Holy Martyr Varus for the repose of the non-Orthodox:


"O Holy, wondrous Martyr Varus, who, burning with zeal for the Heavenly King, didst confess Him before thy torturers and didst greatly suffer for Him!

Now the Church doth venerate thee, as one glorified with the glory of heaven
by Christ the Lord, Who granted thee the abundant grace to approach Him boldly. And now, standing before Him together with the Angels, rejoicing on high, beholding the Most Holy Trinity clearly, and enjoying the Uncreated
Light, remember the suffering of our relatives who have died outside the Faith, and accept our pleas, and as thou didst intercede for the unbelieving ancestors of Cleopatra and didst free them from eternal suffering, remember
those who have died unbaptized and have been buried in an ungodly manner, and pray earnestly that they may be delivered from eternal darkness, that we may all, with one mouth and one heart, praise the Most Merciful Creator unto
the ages of ages.

Amen."

The Holy Martyr Varus is commemorated on October 19. The Life recounts how after his martyrdom his relics were taken by Cleopatra & placed within a church. There she continually prayed for his intercessions. At one point when her son died & she challenged the saint why he had let this happen after all her efforts for the saint, he replied that he continually prayed for her unbelieving ancestors, "with whom", the Life says, "you buried me."

We must always pray for those who died outside of the Church especially those of our own family. We do not commemorate them at the Liturgy but certainly we should pray for them during our prayers at home.

Just think how many even nominal Christians do not pray for the departed or just simply forget to do so. How terrible if a reposed soul was simply forgotten about & no one prayed for him!If prayer is an aspect of our love for others then the prayer of the Faithful must be a source of great consolation for those reposed who would otherwise be completely forgotten. A last thought is that though it is 'private prayer', since we are still members of the Church, this prayer is still the prayer of the Church, even though expressed in a different manner from the Liturgy. Thus it is still a powerful prayer for the reposed.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

You're welcome.

Bishop Basil indicated that this should be said for the non-Orthodox departed rather than the Trisagion prayers that we say for the Orthodox departed. Of course, this Akathist may also be said for the Orthodox departed as well.

Aaron

[Irene]

Thank you Father Raphael for the prayer to Martyr Varus, I am very gratefully adding that to my collection.

In Christ
irene

[sue moore]

I would add another question to this thread- ALL my loved ones are non-Orthodox. How does one pray for family members who do not attend any church and live in the world as if God does not exist? My heart is so grieved for them. Does praying more often throughout the day have a chance at a better outcome? I mean does God answer more quickly or things happen spiritually if we pray more? I think one could drive themselves crazy with wondering if not praying enough was the cause of our families' lack of interest in the things of God. Do the Fathers teach anything about this? Thank you for your help.
Sue

[Irene]

Dear Sue,

All my family (except for my children) are not Orthodox and not even religious at all. I found prayers for the non-Orthodox living. One prayer I was using was a simple one to the Archangel Uriel and another was to Martyr Varus. I have temporarily and frustratingly lost my handwritten prayer book - however I will look hard for them or links to the prayers for you - unless someone else knows them. Although you can just ask them in your own words to pray for your loved ones that they may be saved.

I have noticed a tiny, tiny bit of interest from my mother after 20 years. I have only found these prayers and been using them for the last year.

You can do a

In Christ
irene

I did a quick web search and got the following: (web site here) (http://users.netmatters.co.uk/davidbryant/C/TropKon/Oct.htm#Oct19)

Troparion of St Varus the Martyr tone 5
Thou didst follow in the steps of the martyrs/ and contend for the glory of Christ./ Thou wast tied to a beam and restored by the Tree of Life,/ and thine intercessions gladden our souls.

Kontakion of St Varus tone 4
Thou hast followed Christ and drunk His chalice;/ thou didst receive the crown of martyrdom, O holy Varus./ Thou art rejoicing with the Angels: pray unceasingly for our souls.

[Irene]

Woops, Sorry I just realised that I was distracted in my last message and left a paragraph incomplete.

I was going to say if you have a book for doing moliebens at home, (prayer service to a Saint), then you can use the Troparion and Kontakions for St Varus (at end of my last msg) I'm sorry I don't know of an online one.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

In our Morning & Evening Prayers we must pray for our parents & family. There are also the special prayers that others have mentioned. Also in times of special need we can use the prayer rope while silently saying some short phrase like, "O Lord have mercy on ___". The words can be adjusted according to need.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[George]

Concerning the prayer to the Holy Martyr Varus:
"...intercede for the unbelieving ancestors..." and "...remember those who have died unbaptized and have been buried in an ungodly manner..."
Is this prayer appropriate for family members who were not Orthodox but did profess a love for the Trinity and were baptized (Lutheran or whatever)?

Thank you.

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

This is antithetical to what has been written, but if Christ loves all, then all should be remembered regardless of whether Orthodox or not.

We've had Memorial Services for those who died on 9/11 which included even Jews and Muslims. In my opinion, if you love, you pray for, regardless of who the person is or what they profess.

Would Christ be ashamed of these actions?

We live now in an area of pluralism and we must express our Faith in ways that show love. Christ loves the unbaptized, the wicked and evil as much as loves the Saints. It's just that the Saints are aware of His love.

That's just an opinion and I apologize if I've offended anybody by it. It just seems to make sense to me in this modern age. If we are going to be a witness, it's going to be with a big net capturing all by our love and thus witnessing the Truth of our Faith.

Our Church, the Body of Christ, is to manifest His actions. The people He preached to, reached out to and loved were antithetical to what the Jewish people believed were the righteous.

Anyhow, just some thoughts

[Randy Fermo]

Amen, I have been thinking the same way. I think that even community service ....not only within the orthodox community , ethnic or culture,,,,but to the world. Sometimes. I ethnocentrism can become racist ...if we are not careful.

I am myself immigrants first generation... and feeling at home with my diverse friendship and brothers... I always pray for everyone.... I just dont discriminate with my prayer because ... despite of me being immigrant... I am not part of single ethnic or religious group. I always see myself.. inclusive. I dont think our Lord preaches that pray only with your kind... I say.... that would be fanatical and not being Christ Like. I think that we should be all inclusive with our prayer and community service and ministry.

[Olga]

My understanding in how the Orthodox commemorate the dead is this: In one's personal, private prayers, one can pray for, or on behalf of, anyone, not just those who are Orthodox. The "public" prayers conducted in church can refer to individuals (living or dead) by name only if they are Orthodox, however, people of other religious persuasions could be mentioned as a group (but not by name), such as victims of natural or man-made disasters. A simple example of this is in the litanies sung during Liturgy, where, for instance, in the US, the President of the USA, or the Queen of the UK are prayed for, where they are mentioned by title, not by name. I would be happy to be corrected on this by those who know more about it.

[Herman Blaydoe]

The Church liturgically prays for non-Orthodox, plain and simple. To say or believe that the Church does not allow us to pray for non-Orthodox is simply wrong. But there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to do so. What we pray and how we pray models what we believe and how we believe. True prayer is true theology.

[Mary Stavroula]

I agree with Herman. Non-Orthodox need our prayers as much as Orthodox. For the living and the reposed. My father was remembered in a memorial in my church even though he was not Orthodox. I believe that as a believing Christian, he was assisted to be closer to God on the other side. What is appropriate prayer? If we believe in the Trinity, we pray to the Trinity, our Lord Jesus Christ, Mary the Theotokos, for their souls, whether the people are living or dead. "Help them, Lord," is sufficient. God knows our hearts before we form the words. Jesus the Christ was particularly bothered by the formulaic prayers of so called religious people, preferring the humility of the tax collector in the back. Doesn't anyone see a corrolation here? The tax collector may have been a Jew, but he was a public sinner, despised by the "orthodox" who did all the "right" things. Jesus loved to hold up sinners, unbelieving Romans, Gentiles, Samaritans as models for correct living to the "orthodox" who believed themselves to have the inside track to God. Maybe we should look at some of these examples of Jesus and the point he is trying to make when we "orthodox" think we shouldn't publicly and liturgically pray for our "non-orthodox," "heretical," "sinning" family and friends and even enemies.

[Anthony]

I have known several parishes where departed non-Orthodox are commemorated, usually if they are close relatives of a member of the congregation. In fact I thought until recently it was normal practice. Like many from a non-Orthodox background I have had reason to be grateful for this, though I realize that it must be controversial in some people's eyes, and possibly for good reasons.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

We are to pray for the Orthodox in Liturgy because we are praying for & as the Church. If this were not so then it would be the Church praying for false belief. So the main prayer of the Church is that all be maintained in or to turn to right ie Orthodox belief. In other words our prayer springs from & is grounded in the ecclesiological fact of the Body of Christ which is One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic.

Other prayers about peaceful times, the ruling authorities, etc are also grounded in this Churchly prayer. Here we are praying for the state of the world that it be conducive to the Church. But these prayers for 'well-being' are in a sense relative- we pray for example for healthful weather but bad weather or natural disaster may be a trial allowed by God for our improvement. It is quite the contrary about the faithful however - the Church prays for the faithful that in mind & heart they may be becoming True Believers, ie that they may be Orthodox.

The main prayer of the Church is for the faithfulness & spiritual life of Her members and also that all of mankind & creation may find its life in this. Thus there can be no prayer of the Church which would imply that salvation comes from outside of the Church.

Of course we may wonder if this is not too exclusive a prayer. But this would only be if we think that the prayer of the Church is for a 'salvation' outside of Her or for the general well-being of the world. In fact it is not- for this would involve the Church in a contradiction of Her very nature- which is that all be saved through the authentic Orthodox teachings of Christ & that all finds its well-being through Her.

We can & must pray for the non-Orthodox. But we need to do this in a proper way which is through our Morning & Evening Prayers and also other personal prayers. These prayers are as much of the Church as any other & it is for this reason that they are effective- since they flow with the grace that comes from the Body of Christ- but they are of a particular type which is suitable for who we are praying for.

Our efforts for the non-Orthodox do not stop at these prayers. They also include our active love for them which also hopefully communicates grace to them. In any case the most crucial thing for us to see is that all of this is grounded in our Faith as members of the Church. This is the only thing we have to offer for who could ever offer more than the Life of Christ? And this is why the Church prays in the way it does.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Dear Father,

Do you think that Christ would or would not pray for the non-Orthodox during a Memorial Service

[Anthony]

Dear Fr Raphael, bless Father.

I believe that what you say is true; nonetheless I would ask, does the commemoration of non-Orthodox departed (in certain circumstances, and by economy) actually imply that salvation comes from outside the Church?

A further question, just for information; is it inappropriate to light candles for non-Orthodox on the canon in Church?

Anthony

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Anestis,

I think this question could be applied to everything accomplished within the Church. In other words would Christ pray for the non-Orthodox if they were to receive His precious Body & Blood? Or would He pray for the person being Baptised who does not accept the Faith? I think in this way we can see what a thorny & subtle question this is.

Christ always intercedes for us to His Father through the Holy Spirit. But the fullness of His prayer in the Holy Spirit is that we may grafted into His Life & so become members of His Body the Church. I think when we consider the two aspects of Christ's prayer then we can more fully understand how the Church prays. The Church in Christ does not simply pray- it prays mainly as the Church so that all find life through Her. Thus the main import of Her present prayer is for Her members.

The members of Christ have chosen (at least at some point even if baptised as infants)consciously to be Her members. It is for this reason that we use phrases such as "servant of God" in the different services of the Church. If however the person who reposed was never a servant in the Orthodox sense or perhaps did not even believe in God it is wrong to say "servant of God." In connection with this it is often added that praying for the reposed non-Orthodox as "servants of God" troubles their spirits for instead of praying for their deliverance in the state they find themselves in, we impose a standard of judgement on them that they themselves never intended. Thus it is most proper to pray for the non-Orthodox in our personal prayers being most assured that this is very much the prayer of the Church also.

A last note here is that this does not mean that the Church considers that all found outside of Her now or at their repose are neglected. On the contrary. One day at the final restoration of all thing all will be Church- this will be the only reality there is & all will stand before this from believer to non-believer & be judged accordingly. Our prayer in whatever form it takes must be that all find Christ's life-giving mercy on that day. But it might have to wait until then!

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Anthony asked,


I believe that what you say is true; nonetheless I would ask, does the commemoration of non-Orthodox departed (in certain circumstances, and by economy) actually imply that salvation comes from outside the Church?
A further question, just for information; is it inappropriate to light candles for non-Orthodox on the canon in Church?

God bless.

Salvation always comes from Christ & also from His Church. But remember that the Church is not a mystical administrative structure(that only applies to 'card carrying members') but rather the Ultimate Reality (or the only real reality)that all of creation is heading towards. So all one day will stand before this.

Our personal prayers wherein we pray for our non-Orthodox loved ones are fully a prayer of the Church since we are members of the Church at all times & places regardless of whether this is during a church service or at home. Thus our prayers for the non-Orthodox are not an inferior type of prayer but rather are just a specific type of prayer. After all St Isaac of Syria mentions praying for lizards & reptiles- hopefully then I can also pray for my uncle Billy (if at home).
http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
I have been told that it is appropriate to light candles for the non-Orthodox at Liturgy or any service. Parish practice may differ but the principle of how we pray as members of the Church is constant.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Thank you Father, for your post,

You've given me alot to think about.

Anestis

[Mother Evfrosinia]

Greetings, everyone, and congratulations on St. Theodore's Saturday!

I agree completely with everything Fr. Raphael has written. When the Church prays liturgically, as in a memorial service, we are praying for those that have witnessed that they are members of the Church. The Lord doesn't force anyone into the Church, and I feel it would be wrong to declare someone a member of the Church if they don't have the possibility of confirming that. Of course we not only can but must pray for the non-Orthodox in our personal, private prayers, and Fr. Raphael makes the important point that this is a different type of prayer, rather than inferior type. The akathist for the departed is a beautiful example of this sort of prayer. Lighting a candle is also an act of personal devotion and can be done for anyone.

I would also like to share something that my first spiritual father, Metropolitan Philaret once told us about interceding before God for the non-Orthodox. Apparently Alexandra Tolstoy, the daughter of the famous writer Leo Tolstoy, who had been anathematised by the Church and died unreconciled to Orthodoxy, once approached Metropolitan Anastasy to ask what she might do to beg God's mercy for the soul of her unfortunate father, as she knew that he couldn't be commemorated at the Liturgy. Along with urging personal prayer Metropolitan Anastasy suggested that she do as much charitable work as possible in his memory. This lead to the formation of the Tolstoy Foundation.

This is something else, yet another form of prayer, that we can perform for and in the name of our beloved non-Orthodox friends and relatives who have already departed this life.

[Randy Fermo]

I am convert , but very inclusive with my spiritual , prayer and ministerial life. This thread making me more confuse.... honestly, I never like calculus or sciences in college. Sometimes I wonder why we make life more diffcult to comprehend... why can we not just all get along... in the Island, we call it ... Da Local Kine of braddah. Aloha and Mahalo...

[John P. Nasou]

The entire issue of praying for the dead rests on one major foundation = - Is there someone who has loved or has found something to love in the = deceased? If the answer is yes, then it is proper for that person to = pray for that soul regardless of his or her church affiliation or = baptism. The church should be willing to conduct a memorial service for = that person for this is one way that the bereaved may feel that their = prayers for the decease's salvation may reach God. Would God by any = stretch of our imagination condemn a good person to hell just because he = was not baptised or belonged to the Orthodox Church? Would God ignore = the pleas of the bereaved in such an event? I doubt it! For God is good = and he loves his entire creation, and when good people find sufficient = merit in a loved one, including a husband or wife, to pray for his or = her salvation-I believe God will give notice to their prayers. In our = parish our priests read the names of all who are offered during the = Saturdays of the Dead, regardless of their origin or faith. It would be = heartless for those praying for the dead for them to do otherwise.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Randy,

If two people hold to two different versions of what is the truth then this makes it difficult to get along. Nowadays you not only have two people with different versions of the truth- you have millions who each have their own version of the truth. If you think about this you will see why there is so much turmoil in today's society even though on the face of it they talk about tolerance.

The Church is the other way around from this. It teaches one Truth as found in the life in Christ. And as much as we seriously try to do this we all find ourselves with a wonderful unity of heart & mind.

There is also I think a bit of an illustration of this in your Hawaiian history. In the 1800s I think the Hawaiian tribal people really struggled to somehow maintain their traditional way of life in the face of westernisation. How successful they were you know better than I do. But my point is this- the Hawaiian people at the time struggled for those beliefs & values which they believed were important for their survival as a culture. While meanwhile a much more powerful culture from the outside (western culture) was the culture the Hawaiians were struggling against. So the point is it that it is very difficult to have two value systems living side by side in complete harmony when these values contradict each other. The other point is that the Hawaiian people felt it was proper to resist the destruction of their cultural values. Should we now say this was wrong for the sake of a supposed "cultural harmony"? As you can see- without any struggle at all- all of native Hawaiian tradition might have been lost.

Can we apply this example also to the Church and our own values? I think in a way we can. Except in this case we are talking about the Life-giving Truth of Christ and not just cultural values.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Randy Fermo]

Aloha Saturday Father Raphael and JOhn and everyone.....


Ok.. I will have to get out of my laptop soon .... but I decided to leave this thread some of my thought. I think I agree with John, what right do we have ... who get our prayer or not? I always go back to the bible...


36 And as a man's enemies shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it. 40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.
Matt10:36.

I think that our Lord is also referring to nationality or clan. I do think that our Lord teaching is universal and definetely not exclusive . According to the other thread that Orthodox Church have been in this country for 3rd Generation, but little contribution for community service for the inner cities poor. In my personal experience, I felt out of place in the church because the majority dont have interest with community service. Beside that, I think that prayer is also should not be exclusive otherwise we segregate ourselves to the rest of our Lord Creation. I think that exclusiveness with religion or nationality , definetely a problem . It does not fulfill the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. I think that idea whether our Lord either Greek or Russian and whether John Doe is descendants of one of the disciples really should not matter anymore. Because , it is how we live our life and the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ is what matter most.

In reality, there are more non-orthodox who died doing the work and following the teaching of our Lord on Philantrophia. Can they be save ? Another example,
Mother Theresa of Calcutta or even Charles de Foucauld , who live among our Lord least one... in the Sahara, who died martyr... Can they be save?

Life should not be that complicated ... our Lord Jesus Christ teaching is very simple, our Lord also should ask as ...." Who do you think is greater in the Kingdom of God?

1 At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who thinkest thou is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.

6 But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. 8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt:18:1-10.

I quote this one because , I think our Lord is referring to being exclusiveness. I dont think our Lord is for exclusiveness... with this teaching . I think that the example of the little children is an indication that we really need to get away from being enclusiveness.

There are many non-orthodox out there that are putting thier lives on the line... for their love of our Lord Jesus Christ. And you think they will not be saved? I think that exclusiveness in the Orthodox Church with prayer and even ministry ... will not serve the Orthodox Church in the long run. I am a convert, but confuse and very much independent minded convert... I did not become Orthodox because I like gyro or backlava or Kalbasa or the Ethnic Festival, but.. because of its tradition. I am immigrant but I am trying to live in the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ of being inclusive with my prayer and my ministry to the inner city and villages... anyway. By the way I am not Hawaiian, but I felt I am one of the braddah. I spent many months in the Islands with the homeless community and making an assistment on how to help them.. I seen various Christian and non-CHristian community who are doing everything they can to help our Lord least one... and I have seen or heard that the Orthodox Church jumped in the van wagon in helping the homeless community in the island. I felt sad and start feeling out of place on their midts. Do you think that folks who spent all their lives to live the Gospel of our Lord be save?

I really got to get out of my computer .... I really want to share to everyone ... more about my journey and more about myself....
So here is my message board... sorry, I just dont edit my posting,,,, I post , as if I am speaking.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/innercitymonk/

For some reason, I just remember President Reagan. The best quote I have on him..." Mr.Gorbachev... tear down that wall".

Goodnite everyone and Aloha....

[Randy Fermo]

Correction: I have not seen or heard that local Orthodox Church have jumped in the van wagon or created thier own van wagon to help the homeless locals... although the Islands are one of the most diverse state in the union. I felt out of place and cannot find orthodox who share my passion.

[Mother Evfrosinia]

Again, I have to agree with Fr. Raphael. Not holding a memorial service for someone that was not a member of the Church is in no sense a condemnation of that person, or a statement as to whether or not he can/will be saved. And of course we can and must pray for our non-Orthodox friends. But we can't say that they're something that they weren't, i.e. Orthodox Christians; it wouldn't be honest. That in no way means that we mustn't beseech God's mercy or doubt that the Lord will hear these prayers.

[Randy Fermo]

Thanks you very much... my mom pass away three years ago,,,and she is not orthodox... but she served as Human Relief Workers and U.N Advisors for most of her life... she worked in various refugees camp and created various program for the U.N . When she died, we the children just realized that all her life... she gave it all.. not only for her children , for giving us good education in the US and good life.. and thanks for giving me an idea why on her third anniversary... my family should have a memorial service for her ... at the Catholic Church.

I wish to continue her legacy as workers for our Lord in various world poorest community.

Thanks God... I am save again... PRAISE DA LORD O MY SOUL !

[Anthony]

I don't think it is fair to represent this as a discussion about the mercy of God or the Church's love for those outide it, because these are not at issue. I believe Fr Raphael and Mother Evrosinia are right to insist on this. The question is more about the appropriateness of a particular use of economy in the practice of the Church, at least in some parishes. I just note here that it was and for all I know still is sanctioned by a number of well respected Orthodox priests (i.e. not just a few mavericks) - though it does not follow of course that it is correct.


Our personal prayers wherein we pray for our non-Orthodox loved ones are fully a prayer of the Church since we are members of the Church at all times & places regardless of whether this is during a church service or at home. Thus our prayers for the non-Orthodox are not an inferior type of prayer but rather are just a specific type of prayer.

But surely, Father, our prayers as individual sinners are not prayers of the Church in quite the same sense as the liturgical prayers of a priest? I don't know the correct way of characterizing this difference, but hope you or others can help me there.

Anthony

[Irene]

But surely, Father, our prayers as individual sinners are not prayers of the Church in quite the same sense as the liturgical prayers of a priest? I don't know the correct way of characterizing this difference, but hope you or others can help me there.

Anthony, perhaps you are meaning that our prayers wouldn't be as strong as those of a Priest or a Monastic in Church? I think that we can make up for the weakness of our prayers by the constant repetition of them (and also through our love).

In Christ
irene

[Anthony]

Dear Irene,

This is certainly part of what I mean, and your comments are appreciated. But even if our prayers were stronger, I don't think we would regard them as a substitute for liturgical commemoration. There seems to be a qualitative difference between the two kinds of prayer.

I think there is an analogy here with praying for the sick. Does the Orthodox Church allow for the commemoration of say, a non-Orthodox spouse or parent of an Orthodox Christian, who is having a serious operation? I am asking here just for information.

In Christ,
Anthony

[Elisabeth]

> ' I think there is an analogy here with praying for the sick. Does the > Orthodox Church allow for the commemoration of say, a non-Orthodox > spouse or parent of an Orthodox Christian, who is having a serious > operation? I am asking here just for information.' >

Dear Anthony,

Some years ago a Buddhist friend of mine was very sick and asked me if there was any Orthodox healing she could receive. I asked Bishop Kallistos (Ware) and he said 'yes', he could anoint her with oil (but not a full sacramental anointing). This never happened because very unexpectedly some oil from St. John Maximovich of San Franscico's tomb arrived in my hands and we both anointed ourselves praying for healing. She recovered and resumed her active life. Not quite an answer to what you asked...but information about how Orthodox prayer is important for non-Orthodox.

In Christ, Elisabeth

[Hieromonk Michael]

It is my understanding that at least in some jurisdictions of Orthodoxy, economy is used to allow the burial, by Orthodox Priests of non-Orthodox spouses and close relatives. I gather a truncated service is used which avoids certain words already alluded to here. I have been told that this is controversial in some circles and accepted in others.

Hieromonk Michael

[Matthew Panchisin]

I hope this helps. Saint Varus is celebrated on 19th October/1st November.

Saint Varus and praying for those who have died
unbaptized and outside the holy Church of Christ


Some material about Saint Varus and about praying for those
who have died outside the Church has been published by Jordanville monastery. NY.


A Life of Saint Varus,
from the Menologion of St Dmitry of Rostov
on the Holy Cross Hermitage website
http://holycross-hermitage.com/pages/Orthodox_Life/martyr_varus.htm

An icon
http://www.DAYS.ru/Images/ii2137&1211.htm

One often hears converts to Orthodoxy express their sorrow that there is, understandably, no Orthodox service that the priest can serve on behalf of their beloved relatives and friends who have departed this life outside the Church. They feel the inadequancy of their own prayers, and look without much hope for guidance and help. Owing to the widespread apostasy in Russia under the Communists, this feeling is now very common there amongst those who have remained faithful. In response to this, an age-old tradition, fallen into disuse, has been revived. There is someone in Heaven whose prayers are very strong, wanting and willing to help in such cases - the 4th century martyr St Varus (Uar in Russian.)

A booklet has been printed in Russia containing his life and a special service to him, with a prayer for his help. Icons are being made and are very much in demand.

How did this tradition begin? St Varus was an officer in the Roman army in Egypt, a secret Christian, who frequently visited a group of imprisoned Christians, supplying their every need. He greatly admired their courage, feeling he would never himself have the strength to bear torture. However, through the prayers of these Christians, he finally gained courage and offered himself as a sacrifice along with them. He was cut to pieces with knives and thrown onto a dung heap, from where a Christian woman, Cleopatra, took his body secretly. Her husband was also an
officer in the Roman army and had recently been killed. She was granted permission to take his body back to her home in Palestine. Instead, wishing to honour the martyr, she took the body of the holy martyr Varus, buried his relics in her family vault, and built a church there dedicated to him. Gradually he became known throughout the region as a great healer and wonderworker.

Cleopatra herself prayed there frequently with great devotion, especially for her only son, John, who had just gone into the army. To her great grief, the young man died shortly afterwards (some versions record that her son died as a child on the very day that the martyrdom of Varus was blessed) and she went to the tomb, bitterly complaining that the saint had not answered her prayers. That night the saint appeared to her in a dream,
together with her son, both of them radiant with glory. "You asked me to beg God to grant John whatever was most pleasing to Him and beneficial for you both. He has taken him into His heavenly army, where he serves with great joy. How can you complain? Would you rather keep him for the army of an earthly king? Your prayers to me are always remembered. Moreover I have prayed for all your relatives, buried with me in the vault, that although they died outside the Church, all their sins would be forgiven, and God has heard my prayers."

Here is the Prayer to Saint Varus:


O Holy, wondrous Martyr Varus, who, burning with zeal for the Heavenly King, didst confess Him before thy torturers and didst greatly suffer for Him! Now the Church doth venerate thee, as one glorified with the glory of heaven by Christ the Lord, Who granted thee the abundant grace to approach Him boldly. And now, standing before Him together with the Angels, rejoicing on high, beholding the Most Holy Trinity clearly, and enjoying the Uncreated Light, remember the suffering of our relatives who have died outside the Faith, and accept our pleas, and as thou didst intercede for the unbelieving ancestors of Cleopatra and didst free them from eternal suffering, remember those who have died unbaptized and have been buried in an ungodly manner, and pray earnestly that they may be delivered from eternal darkness, that we may all, with one mouth and one heart, praise the Most Merciful Creator unto the ages of ages.


Amen.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

There is an order for praying for the non-Orthodox departed- a kind of Panichida for the non-Orthodox. It is found I think in the St. Tikhon's Book of Needs.

I once attended such a service and was interested in seeing what it would be like. It actually seemed to 'work' very well in the sense that one felt we were really praying for these departed but in an appropriate way.

A thought that increasingly comes to mind- as far as Christians go very few others besides the Orthodox keep the departed continually in their prayers anymore. So it seems proper that if done in an appropriate way it be the Church which remembers these departed and prays for them.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Kusanagi]

I felt the need to add this important part in.
At the time the practice was for catholics and protestants in Russia to ask Orthodox priests to remember the living and the dead in the liturgy. St Philaret of Moscow didn't allow this as there is a chance for them to think we are all the same and so there is no need to become Orthodox.

St Joseph of Optina says not to do it in a self willed way but to have this prayer:

Have mercy, O Lord, if it is possible, on the soul of Thy servant ........., departed to eternal life in separation from Thy Holy Orthodox Church! Unsearchable are Thy judgments. Account not this my prayer as sin. But may Thy holy will be done.

and i think memorial services are for the faithful.

also to add as it is interesting.

Those saints that are in the hierarchy when they pray for the non orthodox will put on their monk garb before doing so.

prayers for the orthodox dead during the Divine Liturgy is more powerful than a saint in heaven praying for them.

[Peter S.]

Dear Anestis,

Christ always intercedes for us to His Father through the Holy Spirit. But the fullness of His prayer in the Holy Spirit is that we may grafted into His Life & so become members of His Body the Church. I think when we consider the two aspects of Christ's prayer then we can more fully understand how the Church prays. The Church in Christ does not simply pray- it prays mainly as the Church so that all find life through Her. Thus the main import of Her present prayer is for Her members.


In Christ- Fr Raphael

Can you explain more about these two kinds of prayer? Is it two kinds of prayer? You mentioned Christ intercession for everyone and the Church prayers for its members. (I suppose it is not wrong for us to pray for everyone).
The link between these two kind of prayers must be that we pray in Church that the non- orthodox will find life in the Church -one day.

Peter

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Can you explain more about these two kinds of prayer? Is it two kinds of prayer? You mentioned Christ intercession for everyone and the Church prayers for its members. (I suppose it is not wrong for us to pray for everyone).
The link between these two kind of prayers must be that we pray in Church that the non- orthodox will find life in the Church -one day.

Peter

I see I wrote this two years ago. It is difficult for me to remember now the exact point I was trying to make in terms of the discussion at that time.

Perhaps I meant that Christ prays for all but mainly in terms of how they may be part of His Body the Church.

I'm not sure this clarifies things. Sorry.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Peter S.]

Perhaps I meant that Christ prays for all but mainly in terms of how they may be part of His Body the Church.


In Christ- Fr Raphael

Thank you. It was clarifying.

Peter

[Athanasia]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ:

I beg your prayers for the Handmaid of God Sonia Jernigan (non-Orthodox), age 50, who reposed this morning at 5:30 a.m. after a 2.5 year battle with lung cancer which metastized to bone and brain. She leaves behind her husband Rev. Burl Jernigan (Baptist), two adult children, and many family members and friends.

Glory to God! Glory to Him forever!

With humble thanks,
athanasia

[Christophoros]

Do any of the clergy participating on this board know if there are any guidelines in the Russian Church to be followed when using the Supplicatory Canon to the Martyr Varus, found here:

http://www.stvladimiraami.org/sheetmusic/canonstvarus.pdf

This canon calls for the naming of non-Orthodox departed during a liturgical service, which I thought was generally forbidden. Is this canon celebrated publicly in Russia, or at a private service requested by families? Thank you for any input.

In Christ,
Chris