Intercession of a saint

[Trudy]

I've been praying, perhaps not daily, but often, for the sale of our house. Someone told me a saint to pray to for that was St. Joseph the Betrothed because he was the provider and protector of the Theotokos and Jesus during His growing up years. I did pray, faithfully, for a buyer and a sales contract by a specific date. Both those specific requests were answered. The sale fell through with the buyer backing out due to a problem that was revealed during the home inspection which we were willing to fix and are taking roads to do just that anyway. St. Joseph interceded for exactly what I asked for and God answered that specific prayer. Since that time, I've not asked for St. Joseph's intercession because I felt like I had perhaps been manipulative in my prayer request. Rather than risk that sin again, I've not asked his intercession at all. I am afraid of praying wrongly.

Then someone on another discussion list mentioned that St. Xenia was a blessed saint to pray to for intercession in buying and selling houses. I would like to ask her intercessions for the sale of our house, but am afraid that my attitude is one of using her for her intercession to get what I want. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure how to ask my question and voice the concern I have for myself. Have any of you ever felt like you are "using" (in a negative way) a saint's intercession? Like I feel like I abused St. Joseph and his intercession; like I "used" him and once my prayer is answered I'll drop him like a hot potato, only paying attention when I have a specific "need." I pray to St. Athanasius almost daily. He is my patron saint, I love him, I am devoted to him. But I don't feel that same long term devotion to St. Joseph or even St. Xenia. Yet I would like to ask their daily intercession for the sale of our house.

Is that wrong to ask for a specific Saint's intercession for a specific thing for a short time? Is that using and abusing them and their intercession before God?

I probably sound like a real ding-dong here. I'm sorry. I am upset about our house not selling. It seems obvious that my prayers are ineffective and my faith is weak and feeble. Thus my desire to ask for the help of St. Joseph and St. Xenia, yet I don't want to make the same mistake I did before.

Can someone help me understand?

Love, Athanasia

[Janine]

I would pray to Christ that he resolve your problem and help you to understand God's will for you in the situation. That's usually my solution - I pray to put the problem in His hands and to accept His will and ask for His illumination about it. I think you can pray to a saint to intercede for you in the same spirit. I understand your conflict. I resolve it by the attitude of "not my will but thine" and try to trust that this will be the right thing for me, even if I can't see it immediately. And I ask for help. Just help - not for a certain goal. I might even specifically note what I want and then give that up to Christ too.

I hope that is helpful to you.

Janine

[John P. Nasou]

Intercessions from a Saint are age old, but not for specific purposes = other than health or assistance in salvation. Specific assignments to = saints was a development in the west. It did not become popular in = Orthodoxy until many areas of Greece and Asia Minor were under the = control of western nations before the fall of Constantinople when the = practice became attractive to our people. A similar practice by the = residents of the Greek island of Tinos of walking to the church, on the = holy days of the Theotokos, is done on the knees of fervent women, until = their knees are bloody from the rough path. Immolation of the God-given = body in this fashion was borrowed from the excessive torture which = repentants of Catalan subject themselves even today. You will find in = Latin Catholic books of the saints that practically every saint is = assigned a responsible area. Our church fathers repeatedly tell us not = to pray in this manner because God knows what our needs and desires are = and will respond in a manner known only to Him, and this is often not = what you may expect or =

[Effie Ganatsios]

Athanasia, I agree with what Janine said and with John when he says " Our church fathers repeatedly tell us not = to pray in this manner because God knows what our needs and desires are = and will respond in a manner known only to Him, and this is often not = what you may expect or =".

You can ask for something but God knows what is best for us and however our prayers are answered - a "No" is just as much an answer as a "Yes" -this will be best in the long run.

You say : "I am upset about our house not selling. It seems obvious that my prayers are ineffective and my faith is weak and feeble. Thus my desire to ask for the help of St. Joseph and St. Xenia, yet I don't want to make the same mistake I did before. "

I have been re-reading Mother Gavrilia's biography "The Ascetic of Love" and she tells us that no matter what happens in our lives give thanks to the Lord - you didn't sell your house -
perhaps the time is not right yet. This has nothing to do with your faith - pray to God - ask him to help if it is his will, He will help,perhaps not by finding a buyer for your house but he WILL help. A suggestion that comes from my own experience : make a list of the positive things in your life and give thanks for each and every one of them. And one of them is that you have a roof over your head.

Effie

[Janine]

It's my understanding that it's a characteristic of "magic" practice that we try to control events or manipulate others. That is the distinction between Christian worship and magic. That's why you feel you are "using" the saint. Give up your control, put faith in God and ask for illumination about what's right for you to do to resolve the situation. Ask to know God's will for you and for illumination about the whole situation. You can ask a saint to intercede for you to help you to understand these things as well, to pray for your own illumination and understanding.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear John & Effie,

In your posts it was written, "You will find in Latin Catholic books of the saints that practically every saint is assigned a responsible area. Our church fathers repeatedly tell us not to pray in this manner because God knows what our needs and desires are and will respond in a manner known only to Him, and this is often not what you may expect."

Could you say what Church fathers said this or maybe provide a quote? I ask this in a spirit of inquiry & not of contention or wanting to argue the point. It's just that I am used to praying in quite the contrary way & was so instructed by my spiritual father who explained that one can approach certain saints for certain issues "because they understand". Here we are looking at the saints not as a bagel bakery where one gets the ticket to get the bagels. Rather the saints since they are living & aware are sensitive to our own trials especially since they also suffered. Perhaps this is how the tradition arose for example of praying to St Xenia of Petersburg (commemorated today) for help in finding a job or a home. On the other hand I can understand how our prayers can become worldly & crass if we think that saints are there only to get things from.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Irene]

I am really surprised that people are saying not to pray to Saints for specific needs. I have been doing this for my 18-19 years of Orthodoxy as I was taught to.

I have a much loved and worn molieben book for the Saints and when a parishioner has a specific need our Priest also uses specific icons and does the prayers after the Sunday service to specific Saints. Saint Xenia of St Petersburg for housing, work, money troubles. St Anastasia for alcoholics and drug addicts. Sts Cyprian and Justina for those under demonic attack. We always do moliebens and therefore we are praying to the specific Saint plus Christ and the Theotokos. I would say that I can't remember any instances of our prayers not being answered. God is merciful. Athanasia I will add you to our list of needs.

Praying to specific Saints is not something I would want to give up as I feel it definitely works for us and our parish. However we don't ask for anything that is not felt to be a desperate need.


In Christ
irene

[nurse-aid]

St.Xsenia of St.Petersburg example of the high asketic life...You have to know St.Petersburg winterhttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif...in order to understand WHY so... look wider...see up high http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/proud.gif

[Effie Ganatsios]

Father Raphael, you are an Orthodox priest and therefore understand Orthodox theory much better than I will ever be capable of. I used John’s quote in my message because this is also what I believe and what I was taught. In my response to Athanasia I said that we may ask but this does not mean that what we ask for we will get. We are human, today’s wish might not be tomorrow’s.

I think what John meant, was that we pray to the saints for intercession - “ðñåóâåýù åí áëýóåé” - the saints can intercede for us because they too suffered as Christ suffered. But we don’t pray for specific things like a car or a house. Perhaps I have been taught wrongly – I know that some Orthodox here get a priest to bless just about every single thing in their house – some people even pray to win the Lottery!!! I know that some people use religion as a sort of lucky charm and think that nothing bad will happen to them…… I have been taught that whatever happens – no matter whether it is good or bad – to cross myself and say “Thy will be done.”

I have found various references to prayer from the Greek Orthodox page that explain better what I wish to say :

- Once Abba Makarios of Egypt was asked how we should pray and he answered in this way:

"It is not necessary to babble foolishly at great lengths, but to extend your arms and to say: 'Lord, have mercy on me as You desire and know best.'

-It cannot be overemphasized that when we pray, our efforts should not focus exclusively on the idea of receiving.

-The Answer to Our Prayer
The delay in seeing our prayer requests fulfilled, in having our questions answered, is yet another point on which our life of prayer is tested. It is neither a matter of God not hearing our prayers nor of his being indifferent to our suffering. God does not want us to be troubled and tormented, but to be in constant communion with him with our fervent prayers, which should increase if not immediately answered. We should thank God whether he gives us what we ask for or not, since in either case he is acting for our own good. We should not be discouraged and disillusioned when we do not receive what we ask for in prayer. God may be testing our persistence. Let us not tire easily.

If we do not receive what we seek we should thank God, nonetheless, as if our prayer has indeed been answered, since he knows our true needs of the present hour better than we do. It may be that our hope does not materialize because what we desire is not essential, even though it may seem indispensable to us at the time. If something is truly indispensable God will provide it instantly. Therefore, even in the case of apparent rejection, St. John Chrysostom reassures that in essence we have succeeded. Any failure that brings a benefit to our life is in fact not a failure but success.

To thank God for pleasant things that come our way is natural. But to be able to thank God even for the unpleasant events that happen in our life is remarkable. and when this really happens in our lives, we truly bring delight to God * and shame to the devil. Sorrow changes to spiritual joy. No one is more holy than the person who can be grateful to God in his suffering.

St. John of the Ladder says that effective prayer is characterized by two main elements: sincere thanksgiving and contrite confession. He clearly tells us that our requests in prayer are sometimes not fulfilled for one of the following reasons. We may be asking before the appropriate time, we may not be worthy, or we may be seeking out of a sense of vainglory. Another possible reason is that, if we do receive what we pray for, we may fall into the sin of pride. Also, having received what we ask, we may fall into the other sin of negligence.

- Regardless of content or form, all pray-
ers must be said with the conviction that it is
God's will that ultimately governs all things.
The Saints instruct us not to say, for exam-
ple, "Lord, help me get this job", but rather,
"Lord, if it is Your will, may I get this job."
Every prayer must be founded upon the con-
viction: "In all things, Lord, Thy will be
done." This, difficult though it may be, is
our fundamental belief as we approach God
in prayer; it asserts ultimate trust in His
Lordship in our lives.

Jesus, on the Mount of Olives asked God to remove the cup of bitterness from him, but ended his prayer by saying “Not my will but Thine be done.”

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear All,

All of the points made so far about not asking the saints to intercede for anything worldly are completely correct. Also the point made by Effie & a number of others that our intention in prayer ultimately must be "Thy Will be done" is very important.

So it is within this context that we are to pray to certain saints for various needs. Not because we want a house or something material. But rather we pray regarding a situation that is of grave concern, that threatens the welfare of our family or loved ones or even endangers someone. This is like the fishermen & sailors that for centuries have prayed to St Nicholas or Sts Cosmas & Damian for health. We know that there is no problem with this as the Church has many printed prayers in Her service books; eg Akathists & Molebens of various sorts. So praying for a home when we are already comfortable could be a problem; but praying for a home if one fears homelessness, especially if family & children are involved, is another matter.

Another example of this concerns the affliction of alcoholism. In Russia where this affliction is so widespread the Akathist to St Boniface is commonly chanted. Also used is the Akathist to the Mother of God, "The Inexhaustible Cup." The Serbs have put out in English at least four marvellous Akathists for various 'needs' besides the one mentioned already: Akathist to the Mother of God, "Nurturer of Children"; Akathist to the Mother of God, "Healer of Cancer"; & Akathist to Jesus Christ, "For a Loved One Fallen Asleep." These are wonderful to use in a parish setting or in the home.

Lastly there is the more spontaneous prayer for the intercession of a saint before God. It often happens that certain issues are troubling one & providentially one is led to ask the prayers of a certain saint. I am sure this has happened to many of us- encountering the icon or Life of a particular saint at a certain critical time; or finding oneself in a certain church or before a certain icon of the Mother of God when one feels so troubled by something. Here the prayer is spontaneous & heartfelt & naturally one would feel it only proper in the future to go before this saint or icon when suffering certain similar afflictions. And probably this is how the tradition of praying to saints for certain needs arose.

One could write a whole theology about this (perhaps others could give this thought). But for now I would only comment that the saints have a personality & certain talents while on earth. So it is only natural that after their repose the saints also retain this special talent regarding certain afflictions we suffer. For example the Mother of God is very sensitive to the suffering of abandonment & of mothers & children. St Xenia of Petersburg is sensitive to the suffering caused by husbands suffering from alcohol. The list is almost endless.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[nurse-aid]

Not true about St.Xenia of St.Petersburg...she is NOT specialist in suffering from husbands alcoholicks...i'm raised in place which was near her grave and i know that peole looking her protection, peole including bishops, priest, young and old lay peole...in MANY different aspects...see wider....

[Trudy]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this, especially yours Fr. Raphael. They have helped clarify some misunderstandings I have had, and have helped me direct my prayers in a more efficacious manner.

Athanasia

[Effie Ganatsios]

Father Raphael, before writing my message yesterday, I tried to look up references on the orthodox sites on the web on how we should pray.

This morning, in one of the books in my library I came across the following : St. Isaac of Syrian : “Don’t be thoughtless in your petitions, in order not to offend God by your foolishness. But rather be wise, to become worthy of the greatest gifts. Ask for a treasure from Him who is a stranger to stinginess and you will receive a treasure from Him in accordance with the reasonableness of your request. Solomon asked for wisdom and together with it he received an earthly kingdom because he made a wise request before the Great King. Elisseus asked for a twofold portion of grace of the Holy Spirit and his request was not refused. To ask for trifles from the King insults his dignity.”

“In relation to our requests “Let us not teach him how He should help us,” says St. John Chrysostom. “If we discuss our business with those who defend us before the Judges, and leave the way of defense up to them, all the more should we act likewise in relation to God. He knows well enough what is beneficial to you.” Besides this we should completely deliver ourselves to the Lord’s will.”

What is wonderful and strange to me is that I usually read something before starting my morning prayers – as we have been advised to do in order to “warm our hearts” and the book I selected – and one which I hadn’t read in over a year – was the Didache. The second half of this little book (NOT part of the Didache itself) is devoted to instructions about prayer and the above paragraphs were included in it. I had no idea when I selected this particular book this morning that it would be the Lord’s answer to my dilemma of yesterday - I use the word dilemma because I wasn’t really pleased with my message .

Effie

Father, I just read your message no.451. I now think we believe the same things but have just expressed them differently. Of course we pray and ask for help with our problems and the saints and especially the Theotokos can and will intercede for us. A few years ago I read about a young woman who couldn't afford a winter coat and she prayed about it - she told the Lord about it in her prayers and then left the whole matter to him. A couple of weeks later an auntie phoned her and said that the most peculiar thing kept coming into her mind while she was praying. A voice kept saying the name of her niece and the words winter coat. Now, if this wasn't an answer to a specific need, what is?

Should she have asked for a winter coat? Reading the story I feel that this was a desperate need and she had faith that the Lord knew just what she needed and so she left it in his hands.

Am I making any sense at all?

Effie

[Denise King]

Up to now, I have really neglected the saints in my prayer routine. Could someone give me a link or a list of Orthodox saints and their "areas", e.g. Sts. Cosman & Damian for health? I looked in Google, but got mainly Catholic links. Thanks!
Denise

[Ira Mirotvoretz]

To Denise King, There is a list of Saints here (http://www.odox.net/Orthodox-Piety-Saints.htm) Hope it is of use to you.

Ira

[Ira Mirotvoretz]

To nurse-aid. Father Raphael did not say specialist he said sensitive - it is completely different thing. Sensitive means like she knows what is like to have alcoholic husband. Since Blessed Saint Xenia (http://www.lillian-csernica.com/ST_XENIA.htm) had an alcoholic husband and this was suffering for her of course she has sympathy for this difficult problem.

Any one who wants can read about Saint Xenia at the following sites:
Lilian Csernica's site (http://www.lillian-csernica.com/ST_XENIA.htm)
Father Nektarios Serfes site (http://www.serfes.org/lives/stxeniaofpetersburg.htm)
and icon site with story here,re (http://www.comeandseeicons.com/inp110.htm)

[Ira Mirotvoretz]

Also tip for searching = always use the word "Orthodox" in search = it helps.

[Denise King]

Dear Ira,
Thank you! That's what I was looking for.
Denise

[nurse-aid]

WOW my message came overnight...so quik...What is it changing rules???

To Mirotvotez:
And by the way...I never dislike or do not love someone by WHAT they said, becuase thay just do not know better(yet)
But love or like someone IF they said something you NEED or WANT is NOT a love and do NOT Mirotvorez deeds, but rather mind and wisdom of this world!

[nurse-aid]

By saying see wider...i meant that her husband was NOT an alholic, he WAS unbeliver and party boy...It was common in Russia between midle and high class to have night party, theather and etc.
He got stroke or something, and that IS why she was so struked by this, she didn't excpect this to happened, he was in good health...So her intersession mighty be from hight ascetism to sarcificaial own life in memory of lost ones, to the healing and etc. By saying job, addiction, home, husband's search, we are lower her ability in our eyes...But then aging WHO is loking for WHAT...they will get...want full stomach ensted of Holy Spirit...go ahead!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

What you said Effie makes a lot of sense. Maybe it is the desperate needs that mean that our prayers are not demands for worldly things. A similar story to yours' about the winter coat- I have heard from many monasteries how they were in real need financially or otherwise. At the last second help would come from the most unexpected sources- sometimes an unexpected donation from someone who had not known of the need- after the monastics had especially prayed for help. An important part of this though seems to be the element of faith.

To "nurse-aid": God's peace be with you.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Ira Mirotvoretz]

I have edited this message because I was very upset and reacted to language difficulties.

My husband has told me what to do in the future.

Have peace everyone

(Message edited by irina on 07 February, 2005)

[Yiannis Vitalis]

Of course, we can pray to a Saint for every need (which is according to God's will, of course), but we may also pray to a Saint who has received the Grace to care for special needs. This popular practice is not a western custom introduced in the Greek countries after the 13th c. On the contrary, it is a quite ancient practice indeed. I would like to remind you the collections of miracles of a number of saints especially honoured in Byzantium, like St Artemios, Sts Cosmas and Damian and Sts Cyr and John. These texts date from the 6th-7th c., and the Saints appear there as being "specialized" in some special cases. Of course, this doesn't mean that these or other Saints cannot help with their prayers for any true need.

[robin]

Hello all!
I have a question about praying to Saints. If thousands of people pray to the Saints, how does that work?-since only God is omnipotent and omnipresent and omniscient?Is there any teaching or explanation of this? If someone in China and someone in Greenland pray to a Saint, how would the Saint know it since only God is in every place and all-knowing?
Thanks,
Sunny

[Zavulon]

Dear Robin, I will quote the teaching of st. Siluan With the Holy Spirit a man knows God, his Creator, and the Holy Spirit = with its grace fills the whole man: his soul, his mind, his body. The Lord = has given a grace to his saints. With the Holy Spirit we celebrate the = Lord,and the Lord gives us a gifts of the Spirit. So how does the saints know when we are praying to them? They know in = the Holy Spirit everything that happens, and in the Holy Spirit they pray = for us before Lord. With the Holy Spirit they are seeing the Lord, and with the Holy Spirit = they are hearing our prayers.

Zavulon.

[Zavulon]

Dear Robin,
I will quote the teaching of st. Siluan.
With the Holy Spirit a man knows God, his Creator, and the Holy Spirit with its grrace fills the whole man: his soul, his mind, his body. The Lord ha s given a grace to his saints. With the Holy Spirit we celebrate the Lord,a nd the Lord gives us a gifts of the Spirit. So how does the saints know when we are praying to them? They know in the Holy Spirit everything that happens, and in the Holy Spirit they pray for us before Lord. With the Holy Spirit they are seeing the Lord, and with the Holy Spirit they are hearing our prayers.

Zavulon.

(Message edited by zavulon on 24 October, 2005)

[Nina]

To Denise King, There is a list of Saints here (http://www.odox.net/Orthodox-Piety-Saints.htm) Hope it is of use to you.

Ira

I was reminded by this link about a question I have.

The list, which I also have, states:


For Perfumers
St. Abo the Perfumer of Georgia
I have read that perfumes are vain and serve the senses. This idea is a bit of a struggle for me, because I like to use scents and fragrances. However, while trying to hold back in this aspect, I do not understand why do we have a Saint for perfumers? Do we support perfumers (as a profession) and not the product in this case? Can someone please explain to me?

[Father David Moser]

I have read that perfumes are vain and serve the senses. This idea is a bit of a struggle for me, because I like to use scents and fragrances. However, while trying to hold back in this aspect, I do not understand why do we have a Saint for perfumers? Do we support perfumers (as a profession) and not the product in this case? Can someone please explain to me?

St Abo is not the patron of perfumers - he was a perfumer. Also I think the translation there is a bit off. Other translations of St Abo's life indicate that he was a incense maker.

As for the use of perfumer and other scents, does not our Lord Himself instruct us that "...when you fast, anoint our head and wash your face, so that you do not appear to men to be fasting..." (Matt. 6:17-18). Oils, perfumes, scents, etc are like everything else in this world - they can be used properly or misused. If they are a temptation while pulls you away from Christ, then by all means sacrifice them immediately - but there can be a proper, modest use even of perfume.

Fr David Moser

[Nina]

St Abo is not the patron of perfumers - he was a perfumer. Also I think the translation there is a bit off. Other translations of St Abo's life indicate that he was a incense maker.

As for the use of perfumer and other scents, does not our Lord Himself instruct us that "...when you fast, anoint our head and wash your face, so that you do not appear to men to be fasting..." (Matt. 6:17-18). Oils, perfumes, scents, etc are like everything else in this world - they can be used properly or misused. If they are a temptation while pulls you away from Christ, then by all means sacrifice them immediately - but there can be a proper, modest use even of perfume.

Fr David Moser

Dear Fr. David,
Your Blessings!

Thank you for your help and response! It is really helpful to me!

[Anna K.]

I would like to ask about Saint Artemios, who was referred to on this thead in post #23 by Yannis Vitalis. I know he is a Great martyr and a soldier but any other information would be very precious, I have been praying to him to intercede for my husband.

Thank you.
In Christ, Anna

[Nina]

I would like to ask about Saint Artemios, who was referred to on this thead in post #23 by Yannis Vitalis. I know he is a Great martyr and a soldier but any other information would be very precious, I have been praying to him to intercede for my husband.

Thank you.
In Christ, Anna

Dear Anna,

It takes several versions sometime to gain a better idea, when unable to find a complete recount of a Saint's life. Here there are three (can view Saint Artemios' icon also):

http://www.oca.org/FSLivesAllSaintsPrint.asp?M=10&D=20

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=249

http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html?day=20&month=October

[Anna K.]

Thank you Nina, for your links, you are right that several sources are helpful! I learned many new things in the above pages.

I was also happy to find new links here on another thread about St Xenia of St Petersburg. Thank God she learned before reposing that her husband was saved as well. This makes me feel, that she would also be sensistive to hearing the prayers of many of us for our spouses! Thank you, as well, Elzbeth, Athanasia, Mary and others who have shared your stories of seeking/ converting to Orthodoxy and praying for your spouses and families to be able to do so as well.

In Christ, Anna

[Nina]

I was also happy to find new links here on another thread about St Xenia of St Petersburg. Thank God she learned before reposing that her husband was saved as well.

Wow! I did not know this! Thank you for posting it! :)


This makes me feel, that she would also be sensistive to hearing the prayers of many of us for our spouses! Thank you, as well, Elzbeth, Athanasia, Mary and others who have shared your stories of seeking/ converting to Orthodoxy and praying for your spouses and families to be able to do so as well.

In Christ, AnnaDo you know something Anna? Thank you also for this because I, as well, have admired in silence these wonderful mothers and wives and witnessed their love and zeal for the salvation of their families! It is such a joy to witness that and I am so grateful to have read their narratives and wisdom. You are so wonderful for writing this recognition about them and acknowledging them! I am amazed by their faith and perseverance also!

P.S You know this already, but it is worth mentioning for those who did not read it, that Athanasia posted in another thread, that Saint Monica is also an intercessor for women who pray for their families and husbands.