'Psychosomatic techniques'

[John Haun]

Hello,

I'm hoping that someone can answer questions I have about an article I came across entitled, "Somatopsychic Techniques In Greek Orthodox Christianity" by Rev. Anthony Bloom. The article describes the practice by Orthodox Monks of concentrating on "centers" while praying the Jesus Prayer. Rev. Bloom locates centers in the cranium (Cerebro-Frontal Center), the throat (Bucco-Laryngeal Center), the chest and the heart. Can anyone tell me when and how this practice developed? Who developed this practice? Also, are there any books/articles that describe these "centers" in more detail?

Regards,

John

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear John,

I think this may have come from a knowledge of yoga or one of the Indian ascetic types of meditation. Not that these centers do not exist- perhaps they do. But when we pray the Jesus prayer we are instructed to quieten out thoughts (or rather cut them off) and with our consciousness focus on the prayer. The only thing I have ever been told and read about was a certain focus on the area of the heart. But I would prefer not to go into that here as this concerns the Prayer of the Heart which is not identical to simply praying the Jesus Prayer. In any case I have been taught- & I believe this is the safest teaching- that it is better to just try to pray the Jesus Prayer with the above instructions in mind. There are a number of good books about this- St Ignaty Brianchaninov for one.

Although the Prayer definitely involves the body the most common pitfall is to mistake the Prayer for a psychological activity rather than a simple prayer of a broken heart. At its worst this can result in deluded spiritual states (well describred in the Patristic literature). But more often the prayer simply becomes 'dry' & we abandon it eventually. Simplicity attracts grace.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John P. Nasou]

John - Your question regarding the publication by the lately saved = (+2003) Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh was from a 31 page publication = titled Asceticism published in 1957 by the Guild of Pastoral Psychology, = lecture #95, before he was ordained a Bishop and later a Metropolitan. I = have not been able to locate this item. He has many publications which = are of great merit. His most easily found item is a pamphlet on Orthodox = Prayer which I did not find particularly edifying.

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Christ is Risen,

this is way beyond me, if it helps, soma in greek means body, and the phsycic i am not sure but could but may not be the soul and psichi is the soul in greek. I am sure i have put some errors somewhere here where i hope people can elaborate and go into more depth to correct so as it is not misunderstood of the term body etc. sorry it took that much space to write so little,

With love in Christ
Charalambos

[John Haun]

Fr Raphael Vereshack, John Nasou, and Charalambos Andrew Geo-Thank you all for your responses.

Fr. Vereshack-I appreciate your advice regarding the Jesus Prayer. I don't plan on utilizing the centers when praying the Jesus Prayer. The article by Metropolitan Anthony made me curious, as his discussion of centers in the body made me think of Eastern religions such Hinduism. I was surprised to read an article written by an Orthdox Priest that discussed a concept that is more often associated with Eastern religions rather that Christianity.

John(Or Anyone Else Interesed)-I have a copy of the article you mention in your post. If you would like a copy, I can send to you via email or regular mail.

In Christ,
John

[Frederica]

I'm seeking the text of an article discussed in this July 2004 thread, "Somatopsychic Techniques in Greek Orthodox Christianity" by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom. Does anyone know how I can get a copy of it?


Hello,

I'm hoping that someone can answer questions I have about an article I came across entitled, "Somatopsychic Techniques In Greek Orthodox Christianity" by Rev. Anthony Bloom. The article describes the practice by Orthodox Monks of concentrating on "centers" while praying the Jesus Prayer. Rev. Bloom locates centers in the cranium (Cerebro-Frontal Center), the throat (Bucco-Laryngeal Center), the chest and the heart. Can anyone tell me when and how this practice developed? Who developed this practice? Also, are there any books/articles that describe these "centers" in more detail?

Regards,

John

[Paul Cowan]

Khouria Frederica, it is an honor to have you join us on Monachos. We kinda met at my Parish 2 years ago in Houston. St. Joseph the Betrothed. I can't answer your question, but when the others find out you have joined us, I wanted to be the first to welcome you.

Paul

[Peter S.]

I ve read an article about how to pray the Jesusprayer, (maybe it was written by St. Gregory Palamas). I remember you should sit, bowed a bit forward, with your head bowed to the chest, the left side I think. Then comes the prayer and breathing techniques. Forgetting all disturbing thoughts...

I think you should breath inwards while saying "Lord Jesus Christ" and outwards "have mercy on me a sinner". It makes sense, its a kind of inviting Jesus into your life, and then get rid of the sins. :) but it depends on the lauguage you use I guess, how easy it is to use this breathingtechnique, I mean. I dont know. But I remember I tried it, and I was surprised.

Peter

[Michael Stickles]

I'm seeking the text of an article discussed in this July 2004 thread, "Somatopsychic Techniques in Greek Orthodox Christianity" by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom. Does anyone know how I can get a copy of it?

If John Nasou's post was correct that this article is from the publication "Asceticism" by the Guild of Pastoral Psychology (A web page listing Metropolitan Anthony's publications (http://www.metropolit-anthony.orc.ru/eng/eng_publ.htm) gives the subtitle as "Somatopsychic Techniques", so that seems likely), then you might be able to order it directly from the Guild. Contact information for such requests is on their Lecture Publications by Catalogue Number (http://www.guildofpastoralpsychology.org.uk/page6no.html) page; ask about lecture #95. The page does not say that one needs to be a member to order back issues, so hopefully that means you could request one.

I should note that the Guild is located in London, and I doubt their listed price of £2.50 plus 30p postage covers trans-Atlantic shipping :). You'll want to mention where you'd like it shipped to see (a) if they'll ship to the U.S. and (b) what it would cost.

In Christ
Mike

[Nina]

I ve read an article about how to pray the Jesusprayer, (maybe it was written by St. Gregory Palamas). I remember you should sit, bowed a bit forward, with your head bowed to the chest, the left side I think. Then comes the prayer and breathing techniques. Forgetting all disturbing thoughts...

I think you should breath inwards while saying "Lord Jesus Christ" and outwards "have mercy on me a sinner". It makes sense, its a kind of inviting Jesus into your life, and then get rid of the sins. :) but it depends on the lauguage you use I guess, how easy it is to use this breathingtechnique, I mean. I dont know. But I remember I tried it, and I was surprised.

Peter

Dear Peter,

In these two books there is more about the Jesus Prayer. The links below contain free chapters which you can read on line.

A night in the desert of the Holy Mountain (http://pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain. 00.htm)

St. Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite (http://pelagia.org/htm/b16.en.saint_gregory_palamas_as_a_hagiorite.00.htm )

And here (http://pelagia.org/htm/index.htm)are more books from the same website, with free chapters.

[Peter S.]

I think you should breath inwards while saying "Lord Jesus Christ" and outwards "have mercy on me a sinner". It makes sense, its a kind of inviting Jesus into your life, and then get rid of the sins. :)

Peter

Thank you for the links Nina.

I should ve written: breath inwards while saying "Lord Jesus Christ Son of God.

Peter

[Rick H.]

I'm seeking the text of an article discussed in this July 2004 thread, "Somatopsychic Techniques in Greek Orthodox Christianity" by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom. Does anyone know how I can get a copy of it?

Dear Khouria Frederica,

After reading in one of your books that you went through a "Hindu phase" (if I remember correctly) before coming to Orthodoxy, I wonder if you would have any comments about the reality or lack of it as it concerns these centers or these 'chakras'?

I think I have come to the conclusion that these energy centers are not imagined; however, I am wondering if you would have any comments about this?

Thank you very much.

In Christ,
Rick

[Nina]

centers or these 'chakras'?

I think I have come to the conclusion that these energy centers are not imagined; however, I am wondering if you would have any comments about this?

Rick

Dear Rick, please, while you wait for the reply, can you explain also for us the poor ignorants about the chakras and the energy centers that are not imagined? A basic expose would be very much helpful so we can follow what it is said. Thanks. :)

[Michael Stickles]

Dear Rick, please, while you wait for the reply, can you explain also for us the poor ignorants about the chakras and the energy centers that are not imagined? A basic expose would be very much helpful so we can follow what it is said. Thanks. :)

(Rick - hope you don't mind me "butting in" here)

Basically, "chakras" (or the equivalent in various systems) are supposed to be centers for energy flow through the body. The standard model I've seen has seven, with the most common given locations being: at (or just above) the crown of the head; behind the center of the eyebrows; in the throat; at the heart; at the solar plexus; near the kidneys; and at the base of the spine. Each is supposed to be linked to various functions of the body and/or mind. Problems in a chakra - "blockages" - supposedly can cause problems which manifest in an area that chakra influences (i.e., heart chakra blockages can manifest as emotional problems, throat chakra blockages as communications problems, etc.). There are lots of other refinements, and variations in location, number, function, associated color, etc. depending on who you talk to, but this is the drastically over-simplified version.

Having previously practiced some forms of meditation which focused on chakras, I'm with Rick in that I don't believe they are merely imagined. However, I couldn't tell you what they "really" are or whether there is any profit in dealing directly with them. These days I pretty much ignore them, since as far as I can recall, clearing "blockages" never helped me pray more consistently, or deal with temptations more effectively, but did produce lots of the kinds of feelings and sensations that monastic Fathers warn us against pursuing.

In Christ,
Mike

[Constantine]

I ve read an article about how to pray the Jesusprayer, (maybe it was written by St. Gregory Palamas). I remember you should sit, bowed a bit forward, with your head bowed to the chest, the left side I think. Then comes the prayer and breathing techniques. Forgetting all disturbing thoughts...

I think you should breath inwards while saying "Lord Jesus Christ" and outwards "have mercy on me a sinner". It makes sense, its a kind of inviting Jesus into your life, and then get rid of the sins. :) but it depends on the lauguage you use I guess, how easy it is to use this breathingtechnique, I mean. I dont know. But I remember I tried it, and I was surprised.

Peter

Dear Peter,

One cannot help but mention St. Dionysius the Areopagite in this discussion. And one also cannot help but mention the work and influence of St. Gregory Palamas. And no discussion of St. Gregory can occur without even the briefest mention of his opponent, Barlaam of Calabria, and the controversy over the practice of the hesychasts. Beginning about 1347 and continuing for nearly a decade, the controversy had to do with what Barlaam considered to be the dubious if not heretical practices of the hesychasts, especially the claim of the latter that the vision of the uncreated light of God is possible in this life.

Only one section from the Triads is included in the Philokalia (I, ii, 1-12), but it is this section in particular that Palamas cites the Divine Names (DN) of St. Dionysius (4, 8-9) in his defense of hesychastic praxis against the attack of Barlaam. Put simply, Barlaam had accused the hesychasts’ practice of the Jesus Prayer as being grossly materialistic, i.e., where the physical posture and practice of the hesychasts seeks to harness the body and soul for the vision of God. The hesychastic practice of breath control and placing one’s head on one’s knees earned the hesychasts Barlaam’s epithet, “those with their souls in their navels." (Do Greek fonts work on the board? I would have liked to have used the Greek.)

St. Gregory's main concern in the first Triad is to defend the physical practice of the hesychasts (I, ii, 1). In so doing, “St. Dionysius the Great” is cited, in particular DN 4, 8-9. Following St. Gregory of Sinai before him, St. Gregory Palamas places great emphasis on the physical posture of the hesychast, that he should crouch down and curl himself into a “circular” position (I, ii, 8). But this circular position is not simply physical, but ultimately an interior orientation. “It should not have escaped them,” St. Gregory writes against his critics, “that the intellect is not like the eye which sees other visible things but does not see itself." (I, ii, 5).

The hesychast is thus able to turn his attention inward and achieve the stillness he seeks through the physical technique. St. Gregory, also on the basis of DN 4, 9, places importance on another technique of the hesychasts attacked by Barlaam, namely, holding one’s breath. Such a practice, St. Gregory explains, is a necessary one--especially for beginners--for the sake of maintaining the concentration necessary for the hesychast’s desire to unite body and soul for the vision of God:

"Since the intellect of those recently embarked on the spiritual path continually darts away again as soon as it has been concentrated, they must continually bring it back once more; for in their inexperience they are unaware that of all things it is the most difficult to observe and the most noble. That is why some teachers recommend them to pay attention to the exhalation and inhalation of their breath, and to restrain it a little, so that while they are watching it the intellect, too, may be held in check. This they should do until they advance with God’s help to a higher stage and are able to prevent their intellect from going out to external things, to keep it uncompounded, and to gather it into that St. Dionysius calls a state of 'unified concentration' [DN 4, 9]. This control of the breathing may, indeed, be regarded as a spontaneous consequence of paying attention to the intellect; for the breath is always quietly inhaled and exhaled at moments of intense concentration, especially in the case of those who practise stillness both bodily and mentally." (I, ii, 7)

St. Gregory thus appropriates St. Dionysius’ understanding of the movement of the soul in DN 4, 8-9 in order to defend his (i.e., St. Gregory) anthropology, i.e., that the human body and soul are a unity. The turn towards the interior, achieved by training the body through external physical practice, is an important part in achieving the goal of hesychastic prayer: the vision of God (I, ii, 10).

I do hope this isn't too muddled or confused!

Yours in Christ,
Constantine

[Effie Ganatsios]

Apart from breathing in with the first part of the Jesus prayer and then out with the second part, we are told that other physical methods might prove harmful and that is why we should always discuss this matter with our spiritual father.

Effie

[Nina]

Thank you dear Mike. :)

Dear Effie, I agree with you and what you say is very important... I have been also taught that even the breathing technique can be harmful without the necessary guidance. At first we just need to just say or whisper the Jesus Prayer. Our spiritual father will let us know when time is to go the other stage.

[Peter S.]

Dear Peter,




St. Gregory's main concern in the first Triad is to defend the physical practice of the hesychasts (I, ii, 1). In so doing, “St. Dionysius the Great” is cited, in particular DN 4, 8-9. Following St. Gregory of Sinai before him, St. Gregory Palamas places great emphasis on the physical posture of the hesychast, that he should crouch down and curl himself into a “circular” position (I, ii, 8). But this circular position is not simply physical, but ultimately an interior orientation. “It should not have escaped them,” St. Gregory writes against his critics, “that the intellect is not like the eye which sees other visible things but does not see itself." (I, ii, 5).

The hesychast is thus able to turn his attention inward and achieve the stillness he seeks through the physical technique. St. Gregory, also on the basis of DN 4, 9, places importance on another technique of the hesychasts attacked by Barlaam, namely, holding one’s breath. Such a practice, St. Gregory explains, is a necessary one--especially for beginners--for the sake of maintaining the concentration necessary for the hesychast’s desire to unite body and soul for the vision of God:


Yours in Christ,
Constantine

Dear Constantine

Thanks for all the information.

I ve heard about and read a bit on the conflict between St. Gregory and Barlaam here at Monachos. There is a book on the uncreated Light by a norwegian woman called Solrun Naess, you can buy it in english on Amazon. I ve read a bit of it which was interresting.

I was on a Jesus prayer course and the teacher told about holding the breath, but we didnt do it because of hearttrouble dangers could occur if doing it wrong. I think that must come naturally and spontaneous as you write. I think it is so.

However I didnt know you should put the head on the knee while praying, it must be different practices.

Peter

[Frederica]

Thanks so much for all your helpful advice. Yes, I was curious about this article because I wonder if he deals with chakras and that sort of thing (I was an ignorant dabbler in Hinduism and don't understand it very well).

I found the article listed on the website of the Guild of Pastoral Psychology, but it isn't downloadable there; I emailed the address given and hope I will eventually hear back about how to order it. Bp Kallistos refers to this article in his essay on "The Power of the Name" (1986).

In the original thread, almost 4 years ago now, John Haun had said that he had a copy of the article and could send it to anyone interested. I hope that if anyone has it, they will contact me so I can get copy.

[Peter S.]

St. Gregory thus appropriates St. Dionysius’ understanding of the movement of the soul in DN 4, 8-9 in order to defend his (i.e., St. Gregory) anthropology, i.e., that the human body and soul are a unity. The turn towards the interior, achieved by training the body through external physical practice, is an important part in achieving the goal of hesychastic prayer: the vision of God (I, ii, 10).

Yours in Christ,
Constantine

Yes, the vision of God must be the goal for hesychastic prayer. You cant have such visions without a right belief in God. Visions of God can be that you become illumined by the uncreated Light. And I ve seen a lady in Damascus on internet who lives today who recieved a vision of God after having pain in her eyes sweating olive oil from face and hands also.

Peter

[Effie Ganatsios]

This is in one of the Orthodox texts I have downloaded and filed. Unfortunately I didn't copy the author's name.

"We fall into vainglory when we think we are smarter and more experienced than others, even our confessor.

If you see a light within you, or about you, do not believe it, if together with the light you do not feel tender emotion to God and love for your neighbour. But do not be afraid, and be humble, and the light will disappear.

If you see a vision, or an image, or a dream, do not believe it, for if it is from the Load, the Lord will teach you. The soul that has not experienced the Holy Spirity cannot comprehend visions nor where they are from. The enemy gives the soul a sweetness mixed with vanity, and this is how to recognize vainglory. If a vision is from the enemy the soul will feel confusion and fear, but this is only a humble soul that feels itself unworthy of a vision; a vain person may not feel fear or even confusion because he seeks visions and feels himself worthy, and as a result the enemy easily fools him.

The heavenly is experienced through the Holy Spirit, and the earthly through the mind: whoever want to experience God with his mind through learning is in vainglory, for God can only be experienced through the Holy Spirit."

[Effie Ganatsios]

I found the origin of the above text. It is from
Teachings and admonitions of Elder Siluan

[Peter S.]

This is in one of the Orthodox texts I have downloaded and filed. Unfortunately I didn't copy the author's name.

"We fall into vainglory when we think we are smarter and more experienced than others, even our confessor.

If you see a light within you, or about you, do not believe it, if together with the light you do not feel tender emotion to God and love for your neighbour. But do not be afraid, and be humble, and the light will disappear.

If you see a vision, or an image, or a dream, do not believe it, for if it is from the Load, the Lord will teach you. The soul that has not experienced the Holy Spirity cannot comprehend visions nor where they are from. The enemy gives the soul a sweetness mixed with vanity, and this is how to recognize vainglory. If a vision is from the enemy the soul will feel confusion and fear, but this is only a humble soul that feels itself unworthy of a vision; a vain person may not feel fear or even confusion because he seeks visions and feels himself worthy, and as a result the enemy easily fools him.

The heavenly is experienced through the Holy Spirit, and the earthly through the mind: whoever want to experience God with his mind through learning is in vainglory, for God can only be experienced through the Holy Spirit."

Dear Effie,

I hope I didnt misunderstand you, but St. Silouan does not say that people cant be in a illumined state in this text, or cant have visions of God. Sometimes even a wiever can partake in the vision; remember Motovilov and St. Seraphim.

St Silouan says: if you do not feel tender emotion to God and love for your neighbour, do not believe what you saw, or that it is true, for then the ememy will fool you, ie. you become vainglorious. And the view is to no gain, or nothing. People can have visions of God, no doubt about that.

I have myself seen another person in an illumined state when he prayed, some years ago. First I was a bit scared, and then thought I was worthy of the view. It has told me something, but I dont know if the view is to much gain for me. I think he was in a state of love, its nothing to be afraid of.

If you doubt what I said about the lady in Damascus, please go to: YouTube and search for "the miracle of Damascus" and see the stigmata, and the olive oil flowing from her face and hands on the video(es), for yourself.

Peter

[Nina]

If you doubt what I said about the lady in Damascus, please go to: YouTube and search for "the miracle of Damascus" and see the stigmata, and the olive oil flowing from her face and hands on the video(es), for yourself.

Peter

I did. The first one I clicked on, interpreted the stigmata that happened to this lady, when the Eastern and Western Easter was celebrated on the same day, as "a sign from God that the Eastern and Western churches should be united." Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7dbcFxK46Y). I mean why doesn't that happen to our endless saints and elders since the Great Schism, where God appears and tells them He would like union? We have discussed this many times here on monachos about what Fathers tell us about under what conditions a Godly union should be.

Also here is an article from someone who is Orthodox about such phenomena outside the Church (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/visions-outside-the-church.aspx).

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Effie,

I hope I didnt misunderstand you, but St. Silouan does not say that people cant be in a illumined state in this text, or cant have visions of God. Sometimes even a wiever can partake in the vision; remember Motovilov and St. Seraphim.

St Silouan says: if you do not feel tender emotion to God and love for your neighbour, do not believe what you saw, or that it is true, for then the ememy will fool you, ie. you become vainglorious. And the view is to no gain, or nothing. People can have visions of God, no doubt about that.

I have myself seen another person in an illumined state when he prayed, some years ago. First I was a bit scared, and then thought I was worthy of the view. It has told me something, but I dont know if the view is to much gain for me. I think he was in a state of love, its nothing to be afraid of.

If you doubt what I said about the lady in Damascus, please go to: YouTube and search for "the miracle of Damascus" and see the stigmata, and the olive oil flowing from her face and hands on the video(es), for yourself.

Peter

Yes, Peter I am totally in agreement with you. I believe St. Silouan is warning us of the danger of being misled by false visions.

Effie

[Peter S.]

Yes, Peter I am totally in agreement with you. I believe St. Silouan is warning us of the danger of being misled by false visions.

Effie

I agree with you if you believe that people can have visions of God and be in a illumined state, just as many orthodox saints have been and had. (Maybe catholic people also, I dont know about that.) And I m also saying that it is possible for people to have false visions, but that is not the only case, as St. Silouan says.

Peter

[Peter S.]

I did. The first one I clicked on, interpreted the stigmata that happened to this lady, when the Eastern and Western Easter was celebrated on the same day, as "a sign from God that the Eastern and Western churches should be united." Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7dbcFxK46Y). I mean why doesn't that happen to our endless saints and elders since the Great Schism, where God appears and tells them He would like union? We have discussed this many times here on monachos about what Fathers tell us about under what conditions a Godly union should be.

Also here is an article from someone who is Orthodox about such phenomena outside the Church (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/visions-outside-the-church.aspx).

Dear Nina,

I was not inviting to a discussion of union between catholic and orthodox church. By the way I believe that the Orthodox Church is the only true Curch (we dont have filioque). I was telling that it is possible for christians to have visions of God. (I believe Myrna had a stigmata also, it looks like that if you look closely at all the videoes, and you can truly see that oil drip from the icon of the Mother of God and Christ)

I ve heard that stigmata is a western phenomena, and sweating olive oil is an eastern, but I dont know. And I believe that Frans of Assisi had stigmata, but that doesnt make filioque a true statement... The love of God has no borders.

Christ wants union of church and people. The Catholic must come back to the Orthodox, not vice versa. That is my statement about union of Church.

Peter

[Nina]

Ok, dear Peter... sorry...

[Effie Ganatsios]

I agree with you if you believe that people can have visions of God and be in a illumined state, just as many orthodox saints have been and had. (Maybe catholic people also, I dont know about that.) And I m also saying that it is possible for people to have false visions, but that is not the only case, as St. Silouan says.

Peter

Yes, Peter, that is what I understood when I read this text, and lots of saints and elders have told us the same thing - some people are graced and are priviliged to have visions - you must know of a lot of examples of this just as I do. What each of them says though is that we should be careful because not everything is as it seems. Not that I have ever had or ever expect to have a vision or anything, not with my one step forward two steps back strivings.

Be wary, we are told, humility is everything, we are told.

Illusions and other things which are the products of unhealthy minds are also common.
Read about the nuns of Loudron to realize how hysteria and then mass hysteria can take over the minds and bodies of humans.

Salem, America is the site of another well-known example of mass hysteria.

In both these cases innocent people were tortured and killed because of the "visions" other people saw or had.

It is as St. Silouan says : " if you do not feel tender emotion to God and love for your neighbour," then the vision is from the devil. The above cases are examples of this.

One thing I always remember from one of Elder Paisios' books is where he says that when the Theotokos appeared to him, She looked like the icon of the Panayia of Jerusalem.

I have also read that no saint or elder who has been priviliged to have visions likes to talk about them.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I'll try to find a picture of this icon and post it on my profile page.

Effie

[M.C. Steenberg]

The one 'psychosomatic technique' that is universally applicable to all persons, whatever their context, is repentance to neighbours. True, bodily, spiritual, full repentance. The approach to the person, the actual words of contrition and repentance, the feeling of shame combined with the feeling of God's grace. The acceptance of consequences, whatever these may be. The true and genuine forgiveness of whatever wrongs may have been suffered in the past, and the literal bowing of one's head in submission to the other.

These are things every person is called and commanded to do, and which, when done, are amongst the greatest helps to prayer. And yet, they are so rarely practiced.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Andreas Moran]

Perhaps we can also say that making the sign of the Cross, using our prayer rope, bows and prostrations are psychosomatic techniques (though I find the word 'techniques' sitting ill in the mind's ear).

[Rick H.]

And yet, they are so rarely practiced. [emphasis mine]







Perhaps we can also say that making the sign of the Cross, using our prayer rope, bows and prostrations are psychosomatic techniques (though I find the word 'techniques' sitting ill in the mind's ear).




Good post Andreas! And, I don't like the word 'techniques' either as it is used here. Again here we see that words really do just get in the way at times just as at other times one's theology gets in the way of one's understanding.

I like the word 'practice' as it is used when we consider spiritual practices. But, possibly even this word practice sits ill with some?

In Christ,
Rick

[Andreas Moran]

'Practice' seems better than 'techniques'.

[Michael Stickles]

Perhaps we can also say that making the sign of the Cross, using our prayer rope, bows and prostrations are psychosomatic techniques

I'd agree with those. I've found that prostrations have an especially strong somatopsychic effect for me - for some reason it's hard to maintain a prideful attitude while on my knees with my forehead on the floor :). None of them have much of a psychosomatic effect for me, though (somatopsychic = body affecting the mind; psychosomatic = mind affecting the body).

I'd also second (third?) that "practice" sounds better than "technique", but calling these practices "somatopsychic practices" still seems a little off, perhaps because it makes it sound like we're doing them primarily to obtain the somatopsychic effects. I prefer just saying that they have "somatopsychic effects".

Mike

[Peter S.]

The one 'psychosomatic technique' that is universally applicable to all persons, whatever their context, is repentance to neighbours. True, bodily, spiritual, full repentance. The approach to the person, the actual words of contrition and repentance, the feeling of shame combined with the feeling of God's grace. The acceptance of consequences, whatever these may be. The true and genuine forgiveness of whatever wrongs may have been suffered in the past, and the literal bowing of one's head in submission to the other.

These are things every person is called and commanded to do, and which, when done, are amongst the greatest helps to prayer. And yet, they are so rarely practiced.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

Yes Jesus told that if you have something against your neighbour when you shall make an offering and pray, go first and be reconciled with your neighbour.

The Jesusprayer invites to repentance:"...have mercy on me a sinner", and maybe forgiveness too? You can forgive in your heart. Every orthodox christian can do that, not just elders and saints.

When people pray the Jesusprayer, it often feels natural to bow their head. The repentance often comes first, then it feels natural to bow the head, but it helps to the repentance, to do it the opposite way too. It depends what comes first, but maybe the experienced hesychasts always had a repenting mind. Therefore the hesychasts had this special technique/bodily practise, when they prayed the Jesusprayer. To unite body, mind and heart. To come close to God. But that is God's work. (The body belongs to the mind, and the mind to the body).

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

I'd also second (third?) that "practice" sounds better than "technique", but calling these practices "somatopsychic practices" still seems a little off, perhaps because it makes it sound like we're doing them primarily to obtain the somatopsychic effects. I prefer just saying that they have "somatopsychic effects".

Well, we could just call it all 'praying'.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I'm a firm believer in comasomatic practices which I try to put into practice arduously and with precision every night rain or shine.

[Rick H.]

Well, we could just call it all 'praying'.




I don't know Andreas. That word sounds a bit like 'preying,' possibly we should keep looking for another? I guess there is always 'bagel.'




I'm a firm believer in comasomatic practices which I try to put into practice arduously and with precision every night rain or shine

.

After just having supper and sitting next to the fireplace at the present, a comasomatic practice sounds good right now actually. :)

[Marianthy]

This is truly a very big subject.

We are told by Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour, to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength" Mark 12:30

How do we do so then through the gift of prayer?

It is not only our mind that prays, or our lips that speak the words, but the very prayer reverbates through our whole being. This is why many times when we pray we find ourselves weeping at both the good and bad in our lives. Our whole being is overcome with emotion and awe at the greatness of God and all His works.

Isn't it amazing how when we pray with all our heart, all our soul and all our strength that we feel renewed? There is more energy to get up and tackle the day, to tackle both the insignificant and significant needs that demand our attention. All the while knowing that Christ is leading us, allowing us to rest our weary heads at the end of the day on His shoulder, and pray, again, with our whole being.

Every cell in our body is renewed through prayer...not just our minds. Prayer itself is psychosomatic, whether one employs breathing techniques (as through the Jesus Prayer, and as other said, only through the guidance of a spiritual father), prostrations or the like. Your whole being must be enveloped in the prayer.

In Christ
Marianthy

[Andreas Moran]

As Elder Sophrony writes, if we begin the day with prayer, the whole day is, as it were, stamped with the effect of prayer.

[Rick H.]

Thanks so much for all your helpful advice. Yes, I was curious about this article because I wonder if he deals with chakras and that sort of thing (I was an ignorant dabbler in Hinduism and don't understand it very well).

I found the article listed on the website of the Guild of Pastoral Psychology, but it isn't downloadable there; I emailed the address given and hope I will eventually hear back about how to order it. Bp Kallistos refers to this article in his essay on "The Power of the Name" (1986).

In the original thread, almost 4 years ago now, John Haun had said that he had a copy of the article and could send it to anyone interested. I hope that if anyone has it, they will contact me so I can get copy.


I am wondering if any were ever able to get their hands on this article that has been discussed off and on, in this thread, for the past four years?

Or for that matter have any of the fathers or the saints dealt with this before?

Thank you.

In Christ,
Rick

[J. Haun]

Hi All,

I'm the person who originally posed the question that started this thread. I did manage to obtain a copy of the article. If anyone is interested, I can try to send you a copy. The article is entitled "Somapsychic Techniques in Greek Orthodox Christianity" written by the Very Rev. Anthony Bloom.

In his article, Rev Bloom states that there are four centers in the body that are affected by prayer or be used in prayer. One is located in or near the forehead, another is located in the vocal cord area, another is located in the pectoral center and the final center is located in the cardiac center.

There is a bibliograhy of sources provided. I'm a historian, so I am mainly interested in finding out how this idea of centers in the body came to be part of the Orthodox Tradition. This sounds very much like the Hindu system of chakras. If anyone can provide this information, it would be greatly appreciated.

The opening paragraphs of the article are most interesting. They describe three sets of ascetic exercises. The last set of exercises are described as "ascetic exercises which put man's psychic powers to work and have bodily reprecussions." If anyone can tell me what exactly this means, it would be much appreciated.

Peace,

John Haun

[Rick H.]

Dear John,

Thanks very much! When you check your Private Message area you will see that I have requested a copy of this article. Also, I wonder if it would be possible to post part or all of it here in this thread.

Thanks again.

Rick

PS I have tried, in the past, to get a discussion going about this very topic without success. Possibly, this article will be a help to that end.

[Frederica]

John, I would very much like a copy of the article. Are you able to send it by email, or by snail mail? Let me know so I can send you my address.

It sounds like the 4 "centers" might correspond to the process of the Prayer of the Heart. First, the mind / nous is floating up around the forehead and top of the head; next, it is anchored (by the will) at the base of the throat; finally the heart opens and the prayer descends to "the top of the heart" or near the heart in the center of the chest.

not that I know beans about this, but that much goes along with what I've read. In which case there is nothing weird or new-agey about it, it is just where you sense the prayer happening inside. Does that make sense to others, the feeling that you are praying from a particular place inside? Maybe its just me. Like you can focus your mind on your fingertip when it's been slammed in a door, your whole attention goes to the fingertip and hangs out there; likewise, you can pray "off the top of your head" or bring the prayer down into realms where it is more "heartfelt", "whole-hearted," and occupying a greater percentage of your attention.

I see that researchers have discovered memory-type cells in the heart and in the guts, so maybe our ability to sense or feel things there, "heartfelt" or "gut feeling" has something of an organic basis.

by the way, the Fathers warn never to let the prayer / attention descend below the chest into the stomach, guts, or sexual organs; that leads to delusion. So in that case it would not be parallel to the chakras, because don't they go all the way down the spine?



Hi All,

I'm the person who originally posed the question that started this thread. I did manage to obtain a copy of the article. If anyone is interested, I can try to send you a copy. The article is entitled "Somapsychic Techniques in Greek Orthodox Christianity" written by the Very Rev. Anthony Bloom.

In his article, Rev Bloom states that there are four centers in the body that are affected by prayer or be used in prayer. One is located in or near the forehead, another is located in the vocal cord area, another is located in the pectoral center and the final center is located in the cardiac center.

There is a bibliograhy of sources provided. I'm a historian, so I am mainly interested in finding out how this idea of centers in the body came to be part of the Orthodox Tradition. This sounds very much like the Hindu system of chakras. If anyone can provide this information, it would be greatly appreciated.

The opening paragraphs of the article are most interesting. They describe three sets of ascetic exercises. The last set of exercises are described as "ascetic exercises which put man's psychic powers to work and have bodily reprecussions." If anyone can tell me what exactly this means, it would be much appreciated.

Peace,

John Haun

[Michael Stickles]

not that I know beans about this, but that much goes along with what I've read. In which case there is nothing weird or new-agey about it, it is just where you sense the prayer happening inside. Does that make sense to others, the feeling that you are praying from a particular place inside? Maybe its just me.

Not praying specifically, but I'm used to something similar with regard to other kinds of actions (singing, walking, directing attention towards something, listening, etc.). In my experience, changing the "position" and/or "direction" you experience an act in/from changes the act in some ways. It's easiest to see in physical activities, where the dynamics of body position and movement shift when you shift your perception of them.


by the way, the Fathers warn never to let the prayer / attention descend below the chest into the stomach, guts, or sexual organs; that leads to delusion. So in that case it would not be parallel to the chakras, because don't they go all the way down the spine?

The best-known seven chakras do run from the top of the head down to the base of the spine. However, that wouldn't necessarily mean that there's no parallel. In the chakra systems I remember from my new-agey days, the further down the body you went the more anchored in the physical the chakras were. The center one of the seven was in the chest.

In Christ,
Michael

[J. Haun]

Hello Frederica and Michael,

Frederica, send me a private message with your address and I will send you a copy of the article.

I wouldn't say I went through a "Hindu" or "New Age" period in my life, but I always have been interested in religion. I'd agree that the four centers discussed by Rev. Bloom in his article seem to correspond to the four stages of the Jesus Prayer. Some of the centers mentioned in the article are also talked about in "Unseen Warfare" in the chapter on the Jesus Prayer. I think I employed the Chakra analogy because an early response to my initial post characterized the centers mentioned in the Bloom article as being imported from Hinduism. My personal thinking was that perhaps these centers were imported in Orthodox Monasticism from pre-Christian Greek thought. I have no clue as to whether this is at all accurate. I know that alot of monastic knowledge in the Orthodox tradition is passed down orally from spiritual father to student. However, not everyone has access to a spiritual father, hence my post.

On a related note, there is a Russian author named Yuri Vedov who apparently written about this topic in great detail in Russian. He has a website: www.vedov.ru (http://www.vedov.ru) . I can't read Russian and my google translator feature doesn't work well, but that may be another resource for Russian readers.

Peace,

John

[Andreas Moran]

If I may be forgiven for saying so, I feel that this thread is not quite on track. I understand 'psychosomatic techniques' as those techniques of breathing and so forth which are associated with advanced practice of the Jesus Prayer. For most people these techniques are not recommended and indeed we are warned they can be harmful. Further, they are said not to be necessary. Some degree of harmony between saying the words and breathing in and then out will be as far as many will or should go. In and by prayer, we are recalling the scattered nous from its dispersion in the world (understood as passionate attractions) and re-uniting the nous with the heart. We should, I would suggest, keep in mind simply that we are composed of 'psyche' and 'soma', soul and body, and we need to achieve a synthesis of these because they are separated by the world. But that synthesis can be achieved without recourse to 'techniques'.

[Rick H.]

As St. Maximos the confessor has written'




Many are the things of which the believer has need in order to attain knowledge of God and virtue; deliverance from passions, patient acceptance of trials, the inner principles of virtues, the practice of methods of spiritual warfare . . . and, in short there are countless other things which help us to reject sin and ignorance and to attain knowledge and virtue.



And, as Father Jack Sparks has said in his Spiritual Warfare series about our striving to attain knowledge of God and virtue:




Each as is appropriate for oneself.



Also, in the following;




I'd agree that the four centers discussed by Rev. Bloom in his article seem to correspond to the four stages of the Jesus Prayer. Some of the centers mentioned in the article are also talked about in "Unseen Warfare" in the chapter on the Jesus Prayer.



I wonder if anyone, who has access to "Unseen Warfare" could be so kind as to reproduce some of the relevant passages from this chapter which speak about the centers mentioned in the article.

[M.C. Steenberg]

I might just echo something of the sentiment Andreas has expressed, particularly in the light of your comment, Rick. It is true that, qualified, 'each as is appropriate for oneself' is part of the pastoral thrust of Orthodox ascesis; but this is always heavily dependent on that word, 'qualified'. One does not just pick-and-choose what one likes best.

With regard to the Jesus Prayer and psychosomatic practices, this happens to be one area where, in particular, the Church has emphatically said that it is not an equal option available to all, and time and again it explicitly forbids such practices except under strict instruction by an experienced elder.

I'm grateful that you brought up this matter, Rick, as this is a good example of the Church's approach to spiritual practice. There are indeed many types of ascetical struggle where the Church does offer a variety that can be chosen from (though generally this is always in dialogue with one's spiritual father); but in this case, the Church has taken great pains to insist firmly that it cannot be done, and that such practices are strictly 'off limits' unless done with a blessing in a strict relationship of obedience.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Father David Moser]

With regard to the Jesus Prayer and psychosomatic practices, this happens to be one area where, in particular, the Church has emphatically said that it is not an equal option available to all, and time and again it explicitly forbids such practices except under strict instruction by an experienced elder.
...There are indeed many types of ascetical struggle where the Church does offer a variety that can be chosen from (though generally this is always in dialogue with one's spiritual father); but in this case, the Church has taken great pains to insist firmly that it cannot be done, and that such practices are strictly 'off limits' unless done with a blessing in a strict relationship of obedience.

Recently, in a discussion with a number of other clergymen, the topic came up of biofeedback to reduce stress. There were those in the discussion who suggest and recommend biofeedback strategies for calming the heart rate and breathing rate. This often involves focusing the mind on the physical heart in order to become aware of the heartbeat and then using learned techniques which allow one to consciously reduce the heart rate. The language employed in this procedure shares a lot of external similarity with that described by the fathers regarding the psychosomatic techniques of the Jesus Prayer, thus raising a host of red flags.

Another element to this conversation (but tangential to this discussion) is the use of guided imagery in relaxation exercises. What place, if any, does such a standard technique of secular counseling have in the life of the Orthodox Christian, even though it is in and of itself devoid of "spiritual" content.

Is there then, some difference between a purely physiological practice of biofeedback techniques to aid in the control of stress and the psychosomatic practice of prayer? What are the limits that one can suggest to their spiritual children that they engage in these things? How do we distinguish between pschosomatic prayer and biofeedback (or do we)?

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

Fr. Dcn, Matthew and Fr. David, two thumbs up for both of your posts. Thank you! I very much appreciate the clarity in your post Fr. Dcn. The information you have provided is very helpful to me and provides a good understanding of Orthodox ascesis as it relates specifically to the "centers" that we have been discussing (in relation to the Jesus Prayer). And, Fr. David, the questions that you have asked in your post are the very questions that I am asking namely in relation to these 'centers."

With Father Deacon's comments in mind, I wonder if there is any follow up discussion in response to Father David's post?

[Rick H.]

I'm on the list of folks waiting to receive the article mentioned in the first post of this thread. And, I am thinking that in order to keep this thread more focused on the original topic (or 'track' as Andreas says), as it relates to these "centers," and to the Jesus prayer/prayer of the heart, I would like to attempt to continue the most recent turn in this conversation in the following thread;


Orthodoxy and yoga/chakras - Page 9 - Monachos.net Discussion Community (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=66313&highlight=yoga+chakras#post66313)



Hopefully, when some of us receive the article by Rev. Anthony Bloom we can pick back up with it in an attempt to understand what he is saying about the practice of the monks who concentrate on these centers while praying the Jesus prayer.

[Anna Stickles]

I haven't read this whole thread but Fr David's and Rick's questions have a central theme I think.

Whether we are talking about biofeedback -which has to do with our control of our physical body, or psychosomatic techniques that have to deal with manipulating the chakras or energies in hmmm... the soul? or (At the very least I think that the broad testimony is that these energy centers are real, natural parts of our psychosomatic makeup, which many people with the right training can learn to start to sense and control them to some degree just as people are taught to control their physcial body in bio feedback training - the parallel is very apt.) and to me it seems that in either case - whether it be manipulation of the energy of the soul or of the body -- the real question is -- What makes a given practice spiritual and what makes it simply a natural striving after health?

I am reminded of a quote I read in Enlargement of the Heart, by Arch. Zacharias



In paradise man was in communion with God, and God was life and security for him. disobedience and the fall into sin disrupted this life-giving unity with God, and death entered man's life with all its devastating consequences. Thus, man lost the security and support he had from God, the Giver of life, and out of fear and the struggle for survival, he conceived his own way of life based thencefoward on his natural, created powers.


When, then, have we crossed the line where we are legitimately seeking to be healthy and when is seeking health counterproductive to our spiritual struggle? Certainly the new age movement whether it be chakras or any other practice is doing here exactly what Fr Zacharias describes... they are striving for the restoration of health based on their own created powers -the fact that these powers are not something most of us deal with does not mean that they have any connection with the uncreated grace of God, but neither can we automatically assume something demonic about them.

In talking about any practices that deal with awareness of and control of these types of energies is the problem the practices or how we perceive the practices? Are the practices necessarily going to lead to spiritual delusion, or only if we think that by them we are accomplishing something spiritual? Does developing awareness of ourselves at the level necessary to work with these energies necessarily also lead to a type of awareness that is more susceptable to spiritual delusion and demonic influence? (this last seems probable to me and would explain why it is mandated that one needs to be under spiritual guidance to engage in these things)

just one more comment to add - what is the goal of our spiritual growth? The perfecting of our obedience of faith and the surrender of the will to God, or developing alternative awareness? St Theophan says, The condition for this indwelling and reigning of God in us, or the acceptance of His acting in everything, is the renunciation of our own freedom. A free creature, according to his consciousness and determination, acts from his own self, but this should not be so. In the kingdom of God there should not be anyone acting from himself; God should be acting in everything.

It seems to me that if some yoga master who had perfect control of his soul and body became a Christian he would still have to go through this struggle for obedience, the struggle to surrender his own created powers to the grace of God.

[Rick H.]

SOMATOPSYCHIC TECHNIQUES IN GREEK ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY

The Very Rev. Anthony Bloom

Christians of the Orthodox Church have attached meaning and value to certain techniques which have been found to aid spiritual attainment. For convenience, three principal groups of ascetic exercises may be distinguished.

(a) The first group relate only to the body and affect the soul (psyche) and the spirit (pneuma) only indirectly, in the degree to which the “total” man is modified by them. These are so-called “mortification” exercises: fasting, vigil, taxing labour, chastity, etc.

(b.) The second group habituate the body to certain exigencies which have direct repercussions on the psychic life and indirect on the spiritual. These are scarcely known in the Occident and will form the substance of this article.

(c.) The last are ascetic exercises which put man’s psychic powers to work and have bodily repercussions. These essentially consist in meditation and certain forms of prayer, and fall outside the frame of our subject.



I
Mortificational Ascesis

Man was created from naught: this is the prime verity with which Biblical revelation confronts us. Man has no ontological basis either in himself, or in God. Nothing preceded the cosmos of which man is an integral part: and no genetic bond links man to his Creator. The “chaos” of ancient discourse was only a relative nothingness, that of nullity rather than that of nonbeing. It is a vague and formless “being,” described to us by the second verse of the Book of Genesis: “The earth was formless and void; there was darkness over the surface” (or according to Edmond Fieg, “Now the earth was flood and chaos; and dark lay upon the face of the abyss”), for, to antiquity, ordered being alone had existence. Real, absolute nothingness, that which precedes the creation of the first creature, exceeds the capabilities of natural thought. for it is not absence, void, or even reduction of being to imperceptibility. It is, on the contrary the Presence par excellence of the Unique, of the Only Real, Transcendent and Unknown until He wills to reveal Himself. Chaos is vacuity of the created; what precedes the appearance of the creature is plenitude of the Uncreated, which God alone knows and reveals. No common standard, exists, no natural filiation between God and man, whose only fulcrum is the divine will. This, if accepted, gives him access to life—which is participation in God’s life. And it is to the whole man that this life is offered: as body, soul, and spirit he is called to know God, to commune with divine life. For it is the total man who is in the image of God.

To attain his highest end, the created being must then open himself to God, transcend his own limitation, and expand to the limitless dimension of the Uncreated. But besides this ontological task, another has devolved on man ever since his Fall: having become less than man, he must rebecome what he originally was, before he can accomplish his vocation and fully respond to the call of his God.

The harmony of human nature implies a hierarchy of its constituent parts. The body should be subject to the soul (psyche) and the latter to the spirit (pneuma); man’s spirit (nephesh) communes, in turn, with the breath, God’s Spirit in man (rouah), life force and source of his immortality. As long as this hierarchy is not destroyed, man remains “like” God, his “fellow”: he is capable of receiving God and of manifesting Him.

But man is created “sovereign”: he can determine his own destiny. His very contingency insures his independence. No inner need constrained God to call him into existence: superfluous to the plenitude of the divine being, he is set before his Creator. If he fails Him, if he turns aside, it is the integrity of his nature that he risks and endangers. He can cease to be like unto God or can unite with Him. In the former case, anyone wishing to realize his vocation will face, in addition to the ontological task of transcending the created, a new task: recovery of the lost harmony.

Within the limits of the present article, it is neither possible nor desirable to go into all the terms of the Fall, but for the point we are making, it is of interest to note that the Fall was at once sudden and progressive: “and death was implanted little by little” says the Book of Genesis. It was sudden, in that a deep and irremediable change at once took place which we may define as “fragmentation.” God and man found within themselves sundered as one from another; God’s Spirit in man (rouah) became not only different from man’s spirit (nephesh), but foreign to it. It ceased to be the life source and man left to himself could only die.

The triple hierarchic harmony of body, soul, and spirit was broken the moment the spirit of man ceased to be the channel through which life poured into the soul and vivified the body. And, cut off from the divine source of eternal life, man had to seek support for his existence in the natural order. We read in the second chapter of Genesis (Verse 16): “Thou mayest eat of all the trees of the garden.” But after the Fall: “The soil shall be cursed because of thee: by labour and trouble shalt thou derive nourishment therefrom all the days of thy life . . . and thou shalt eat the grass of the fields.” Instead of communing with the life of God, Adam must share in the life of the material world and by this fact integrate himself with it until the day when the earth shall take back that which belongs to it, “ . . . Until thy return to the earth whence thou wert taken: for dust thou art, and to dust thou shalt return.”

This is only the first stage, however, in that integration of man with the material from which he was to have disengaged himself—or rather into which he was to have disengaged himself—or rather into which he was to have integrated the divine Spirit. “My Spirit shall not remain always in man for man is but flesh . . .” (Gen. 6:3). Once separated from God, man is on the downgrade, driven by the spirit of evil whose slave he has become: “The Eternal saw that the wickedness of men was great upon the earth and that all the thoughts of their heart were directed each day only unto evil” (Gen. 6:5) and the deluge came. And when only those remained alive who had not been corrupted by evil, but who had nonetheless inherited degeneration from their parents, the Lord “said to Noah and his sons . . . you shall be a fear and a dread to every animal of the earth and to all fish of the sea: they are delivered into your hands; all that moves and has life shall serve you for food; all this I give unto you like as the green grass.”

This right to eat all “that which moves and has life” appears then as the cruel ransom of an increasing forfeiture, not as a dignity conferred on man. Incapable of living by the grace of God, with no intrinsic life, man has since that time depended completely on the created world, upon matter, in which he has become more and more involved. From it he derives his life and his death, a precarious and momentary life whose end is his going back to dust.

To return to life will then mean among other things to break the hold of the matter, to become once more “autonomous” Alas! I have rendered my flesh lusty and lo, it wages war against the Spirit,” declares an Orthodox hymn. The opposition of the two terms flesh and body is strikingly clear; flesh is the body destitute of divine life and maintaining its existence only in the material order; body is the human material permeated by the Spirit of God, restored to harmony and liberated from servitudes familiar to its fallen nature but alien through its vocation.

The struggle against the flesh is then a struggle for the revivification of the body, and the term mortification acquires its true value. What must be killed is servile passion; what must be destroyed is servitude. We belong to the fallen world which succeeded the antediluvian world and must do more than renounce what is for us the source of life in order to acquire a new life. The mortification ascesis makes sense only as associated with a constructive ascesis which fits us to receive the divine life and to “live by the Word of God.” It is possible only if while casting off the material world we are also gaining a foothold in the divine world; and progress in this second direction must precede the work of renunciation or at least advance parallel to it, failing which the “flesh” dies before the “body” has returned to life.

The divers elements of this ascesis—fasting, continence, vigil, work—require no commentary. Each has its special value and they may not be used indiscriminately. If, on the one hand, fasting, carried to the limits of individual abilities, gives the intelligence an acuity and refulgence unknown without it, on the other hand fasting restores man to himself and aids him to make him to make “his psychic being coincide with the limits of his body.” The thirst ascesis is a necessary is a necessary condition to progress in inner prayer. On the other hand, it is interesting to note and important to know that successful devotion to one ascetic exercise is impossible without simultaneously engaging in the others; to pray without fasting and keeping vigil is impossible, but even more impossible is it to fast and keep vigil unless one be permeated by the spirit of prayers. Here is the reason why lives of Saints calculate spiritual progress in terms (to us so strange) of long vigils, of hardly credible fasts. Here it is surely a matter of “dying to earth” and of living again in God, of drawing oneself up by constant and concerted effort to the height of one’s true nature, by a struggle that straightens an liberates, that kills the germ of death in order that life may be fruitful and may triumph.

[Rick H.]

I have started typing this essay by Fr. Bloom in by hand. This is a big job, and the essay doesn't get right to the centers/chakras . . .

So I am wondering if anyone has a copy of this and they know who to scan it in, could you please do this? There is no online copy of Fr. Blooms essay anywhere on the Internet.

Or, possibly, other's would like to help with the typing to get it up in it's entiret? If so, just post what section you are working on so there is no duplication please.

There are much better minds than mine that I wish could read this.

Or, maybe this could even find its way into the monachos library somehow? That would be pretty cool. :)

[Theophrastus]

Hello Frederica and Michael,

Frederica, send me a private message with your address and I will send you a copy of the article.

I wouldn't say I went through a "Hindu" or "New Age" period in my life, but I always have been interested in religion. I'd agree that the four centers discussed by Rev. Bloom in his article seem to correspond to the four stages of the Jesus Prayer. Some of the centers mentioned in the article are also talked about in "Unseen Warfare" in the chapter on the Jesus Prayer. I think I employed the Chakra analogy because an early response to my initial post characterized the centers mentioned in the Bloom article as being imported from Hinduism. My personal thinking was that perhaps these centers were imported in Orthodox Monasticism from pre-Christian Greek thought. I have no clue as to whether this is at all accurate. I know that alot of monastic knowledge in the Orthodox tradition is passed down orally from spiritual father to student. However, not everyone has access to a spiritual father, hence my post.

It is possible that the four centers referred to by Rev. Bloom relate to universally human centers of concentration, known to the Hindus as the chakras, to the Kabbalists as something else, and to the Sufis as still something else. It seems reasonable to suppose that the contemplative Greeks (e.g., Plotinus) also personally experienced such centers. Some of this Greek tradition may have passed onto the Church Fathers, but not in terms of mere imitation, but it terms of the early Christian monastics engaging in contemplation, and re-discovering and re-confirming through their own experience, the reality of the different centers of concentration. The Hindu chakra system, for instance, gets quite specific, describing the chakras as appearing in specific forms, with specific characteristics. Not everyone need experience the centers of concentration in such a specific way; and not everyone need even be aware of such centers, during the course of spiritual practice.

[Robin Elizabeth]

I ve read an article about how to pray the Jesusprayer, (maybe it was written by St. Gregory Palamas). I remember you should sit, bowed a bit forward, with your head bowed to the chest, the left side I think. Then comes the prayer and breathing techniques. Forgetting all disturbing thoughts...

I think you should breath inwards while saying "Lord Jesus Christ" and outwards "have mercy on me a sinner". It makes sense, its a kind of inviting Jesus into your life, and then get rid of the sins. :) but it depends on the lauguage you use I guess, how easy it is to use this breathingtechnique, I mean. I dont know. But I remember I tried it, and I was surprised.

Peter

Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote:
"Those who have no personal contact with a starets may still practice the Prayer without any fear, so long as they do so only for limited periods - initially, for no more than ten or fifteen minutes at a time - and so long as they make no attempt to interfere with the body's natural rhythms."

Bowing ones head, especially to the side does interfere with the body's natural rhythms. It compresses both the median nerve and the carotid artery which changes your heart rate and blood pressure and can cause permanent nerve problems.

Remember that many of the writings about the Jesus Prayer were for monastics and were never meant for those of us outside of the monastic environment.

[Michael Stickles]

Or, maybe this could even find its way into the monachos library somehow? That would be pretty cool. :)

We'd have to get permission from the publisher first. Since Fr Anthony was ordained in 1948, this had to be published after that and so would definitely still be under copyright.

[Rick H.]

Mike--I have had good luck getting permission from publishers in the past to reproduce parts of books for things for groups/classes; but, maybe since this is the internet it would be a different story? Although, I think I have what you have and there doesn't seem to be any info about the name of the book this essay is found in or publisher.

From what I can see this is not a book by Bloom, but a book with a collection of essays by different people. I wonder if essays are covered under the same copywrite laws?

Or for that matter, possibly we can just reproduce the relevant parts of the essay and stay out of trouble that way?

[Frederica]

Thank you, John, for mailing me a hard copy of Met Anthony Bloom's pamphlet, "Somatopsychic Techniques in Greek Orthodox Christianity." This was a lecture he gave at the Guild of Pastoral Psychology in London, in 1957, and the Guild published it as a pamphlet (#95).

There is a website for the Guild and instructions regarding who to email if you want to purchase a pamphlet, but I have gotten no reply. In this case I don't know whether it is all right to web-publish an electronic version or not.

In the meantime I am willing to email the file to those interested. I have proofread it lightly and there may still be typos; if you catch any please let me know, and we can arrive at an accurate version before long.

Please email through the contact button at my website, www.frederica.com, if you would like to be sent a Word file of this pamphlet.


Hello Frederica and Michael,

Frederica, send me a private message with your address and I will send you a copy of the article.

I wouldn't say I went through a "Hindu" or "New Age" period in my life, but I always have been interested in religion. I'd agree that the four centers discussed by Rev. Bloom in his article seem to correspond to the four stages of the Jesus Prayer. Some of the centers mentioned in the article are also talked about in "Unseen Warfare" in the chapter on the Jesus Prayer. I think I employed the Chakra analogy because an early response to my initial post characterized the centers mentioned in the Bloom article as being imported from Hinduism. My personal thinking was that perhaps these centers were imported in Orthodox Monasticism from pre-Christian Greek thought. I have no clue as to whether this is at all accurate. I know that alot of monastic knowledge in the Orthodox tradition is passed down orally from spiritual father to student. However, not everyone has access to a spiritual father, hence my post.

On a related note, there is a Russian author named Yuri Vedov who apparently written about this topic in great detail in Russian. He has a website: www.vedov.ru (http://www.vedov.ru) . I can't read Russian and my google translator feature doesn't work well, but that may be another resource for Russian readers.

Peace,

John

[D. W. Dickens]

I'm a fool so forgive this question.

How do we reconcile the dangers around any "advanced" practice of the Jesus prayer (and modern medical knowledge about what some of these techniques do to the body) with its perceived spiritual benefit?

As a follow up, I do not want to be accused of defending Balaam, I'm not denying that monks see the Uncreated Light, but doesn't this seem odd to... force? such a vision? Haven't people had spiritually beneficial visions without practicing the Jesus prayer? The Mother of God appearing to Nina to tell her to go to Georgia, for example?

I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying the vast majority of the Church (and in fact, of the monastics and clergy I know--a very small sampling, but an important one to me--none of them have even attempted these techniques) does the will of God and works for the salvation of the world without them.

I hate to be utilitarian, but what's the point? It almost feels like when my son wants to open his Christmas present early.

The Jesus prayer is clearly beneficial. But then so is heart surgery to those who need it. I worry that many (including myself) start proscribing spiritual treatments for ourselves. If a man who represents himself in court has a fool for a client, a man who is his own priest is double the fool.

Why would anyone seek out to do something spiritually dangerous?

[Rick H.]

Hi D.W.,

After reading your concluding question, it occurs to me that we could also ask, why would anyone do something that is "physically dangerous" (viz. something detrimental to one's physical health) like putting one's mouth on a metal cross that many other people have put their mouth on when kissing it at the end of a service. I think there might be some answers there with this question that could overlap and provide answers to your question.

There are obviously some real differences between kissing a metal cross (which can be for everyone) and practicing the above spiritual practices (which are for very-very few), but if you really want some answers as to motivation, or 'why' as you have asked. Possibly to explore my question above could be of some help.

I make the gesture, and it is meaningful to me, but as far as a real kiss goes, to be brutally honest,I would just as soon lick the door handle on the outside of the building, during cold and flu season (not to mention other communicable diseases), as I would put my mouth on a cross after one hundred or more others have on their way out the door.

It's a rainy-gloomy Sunday afternoon here in Ohio. Hopefully, things are a little nicer out there in sunny CA. :O)

In Christ,
Rick

[Paul Cowan]

I'm not denying that monks see the Uncreated Light, but doesn't this seem odd to... force? such a vision?
Why would anyone seek out to do something spiritually dangerous?

God id not a respector of persons. We cannot manipulate God to do "our" bidding. The monks cannot "force" God to reveal Himself to them either. I dare say no monk would ever take the position, "I want to see God and by doing this act, He will be forced to appear to me." If anything manifests itself at this level of thinking it is not Godly. Where would the humility be? What arrogance for a monk to think this or any formula would work on God.

No, I think the manifestation of the uncreated light is a by-product of the act, not a result of the act. God condescends to our weaknesses and to those of greater humbleness He gives greater gifts.

St. Paul calls us to pray unceasingly. The Jesus prayer is that solution. We are called for quantity, not quality of prayer. Those that have permission from their spiritual fathers to do the indepth breathing and focus into the heart are not doing anything spiritually dangerous no more than are we who only say the words with or without a prayer rope. We are able to do what we can.

You may be able to ride a bicycle down a craggy, rocky hill as a normal part of your outdoor adventure while I can barely stay on the bike as it rolls by itself down the driveway. To each of us, this is a "normal" activity. To me, you are nuts and doing something totally life-threateningly dangerous.

Much like the hot air balloon I saw this morning on the way to church. I thought they were nuts. The customer was adventurous enough to try it. The owner of the balloon does it all the time. Who am I to judge either of them. We are each doing what is natural to our positions. The customer was looking to grow into something more. Perhaps my next step would be to look at being a customer. (not)

Paul

[D. W. Dickens]

God id not a respector of persons. We cannot manipulate God to do "our" bidding. The monks cannot "force" God to reveal Himself to them either. I dare say no monk would ever take the position, "I want to see God and by doing this act, He will be forced to appear to me." If anything manifests itself at this level of thinking it is not Godly. Where would the humility be? What arrogance for a monk to think this or any formula would work on God.

An excellent pair of posts in reply to my less-than-excellent questionings.

While we cannot "manipulate" that is "deceive to turn to our own purpose" God, I do believe our prayers and our lives do illicit a "response" from God. The scriptures and the Fathers seem too full of stories where God allowed Himself to be ... persuaded? God can and does all manner of great works with us, without us and in spite of us. But all three are true. (in spite, without and WITH) It's the "WITH" that I think the monk is after here.

Isn't the monk essentially saying, "God I'm doing this in obedience as has been taught for my good, I will see what you will have me see also for my good."? And there is a lesson and a good even in not seeing?

For some it seems God has made Himself manifest it seems nearly "ordinary" that is, His presence is a gentle and tender thing, for others of us God has decided (perhaps because such an appearance would do violence to us) not to so manifest. I have heard and read some many Orthodox all manner of visions. For others life-long silence is their only companion.

We must all accept this is God's greater wisdom and in this it is true, we cannot "force" or "manipulate" God into changing this.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I don't know if God minds being "forced".

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matthew 11:12

Ancient Patristic testimony speaks to this that whoever hears and loves the Word of God takes the Kingdom "by force", doing whatever it takes to enter the reality of the Kingdom of God, even unto the shedding of their own blood in martyrdom. It is another way of saying that the Kingdom of God does not belong to the lazy or complacent, it takes action, and violent action at that "for the violent take it by force".

And what are we to make of Luke 18:1-7? The power of positive nagging? What does this mean?

Somehow it seems that the motive is more important than the method, but God evidently honors persistence.

Herman the persistent Pooh

[Andreas Moran]

God evidently honors persistence.

This is surely right. As the lover persistently pursues his beloved, a person pursues God (as indeed God pursues the person). But just as the lover should not and cannot force the beloved to love him, so the person should not and cannot force God to manifest His love in any way. Loving persistence, yes: proud contrivance, no.

[Paul Cowan]

Why would anyone seek out to do something spiritually dangerous?

Can you define this for us? What is; spiritually dangerous?

I would say if Moses had turned around when God passed by, that might be considered "dangerous".

[Anna Stickles]

but doesn't this seem odd to... force? such a vision?

I think there is a little misunderstanding here of how the Jesus Prayer is taught. Use of the imagination during prayer is strictly forbidden. Visions are generally approached with an attitude of neither accepting nor rejecting them, since often the discernment is lacking as to the source of the vision (God, demonic, or self-delusion)

Also I think that it is important to remember that no one who is seriously practicing the Jesus prayer under spiritual guidance is going to be practicing it in isolation. But rather as part of a whole life of asceticism, struggling against the passions and for virtue in obedience and humility.



The scriptures and the Fathers seem too full of stories where God allowed Himself to be ... persuaded?
I really like the way you worded this.



For others life-long silence is their only companion.
I could very well be wrong here, but I think if life long silence is our only companion, maybe we have only ourselves to blame? In Path to Salvation, St Theophan clearly seems to teach that there is a natural growth that occurs if we force ourself, but in as much as we allow ourselves to fall (and who can avoid falling?) we have to work on ourselves.



However, grace is not freely given to the person who has already experienced spiritual arousal, who knows and senses what life in Christ is, and who has fallen into sin again. He must give something himself first. He must still be worthy and beseech. It is not enough merely to wish; he must work on himself in order to attract spiritual arousal by grace. Such a person, in recollecting his previous sojourn in the virtuous Christian way, often desires it again, but has no power over himself. He would like to turn over a new leaf, but is unable to gain self-mastery and conquer himself. He has abandoned himself to helpless despair because he previously abandoned the gift and reproached and trodden underfoot the Son of God...and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace (Heb. 10:29). Now he is allowed to perceive that this power of grace is so great that it will not be granted immediately. Seek and labor, and learn to appreciate how difficult it is to acquire.


St Gregory of Nyssa also says,



The development of the body in its process of growing is not in our hands, for nature does not measure size by man’s judgment or pleasure, but by its own impulses and by necessity; the measure of the soul, however, in the renewal of its birth and the beauty which the grace of the Spirit furnishes through the zeal of the one who receives it, depends on our judgment. As far as you extend your efforts in behalf of piety, so far will the greatness of your soul extend through efforts and toils towards what the Lord urges us when He says: ‘Strive to enter by the narrow gate.’(Luke 13.24; Matt. 7.13) And again:
‘Use force, for the forceful take the kingdom of heaven as their prize’;(Matt. 11.12.)and: ‘He who has persevered to the end, will be saved’;(Matt. 10.22; Mark 13.13) and: ‘By your patience you will win your souls’;(Luke 21.19) and the apostle says: ‘Let us run with patience to the fight set before us’;(Heb. 12.1) and he says: ‘So run as to obtain’;(1 Cor. 9.24) and again
‘As the God’s ministers in much patience,’ etc.(2 Cor. 6.4) By this, he summons us to run and he urges us to enter the contests eagerly, since the gift of grace is measured by the labors of the receiver. For the grace of the Spirit gives eternal life and unspeakable joy in heaven, but it is the love of the toils because of the faith that makes the soul worthy of receiving the gifts and enjoying the grace. When a just act and grace of the Spirit coincide, they fill the soul into which they come with a blessed life; but, separated from each other, they provide no gain for the soul. For the grace of God does not naturally frequent souls which are fleeing from salvation, and the power of human virtue is not sufficient in itself to cause the souls not sharing in grace to ascend to the beauty of life. For it says: ‘Unless the Lord build the house and keep the city, he labors in vain that builds it and watches in vain who keeps it."(Ps. 126.1)And again: ‘For not with their own sword did they conquer the land; nor did their own arm make them victorious (although they used their swords and arms in their struggles), but it was your right hand and your arm, and the light of your countenance."(Ps. 43.4) What does this mean? It means that the Lord from on high enters into an alliance with the doers, and, at the same time, it means that it is not necessary for men considering human efforts to think that the entire crown rests upon their struggles, but it is necessary for them to refer their hopes for their goal to the will of God.


What is spiritual dangerous is not the Jesus Prayer but an inner disposition that wants spiritual experiences - visions, clairvoyance, discernment and in which those experiences feed the passion of spiritual pride. As long as we are not dispassionate, we are all subject to this. I mean aren't we already corrupting just the natural gifts God gives us, being led into vanity over being able to do this or that, or feeling successful at this or that as if we ourselves have done something worthwhile? We can say that everything we have, we have only from God, but in reality most of the time how we are thinking and acting reflects a different disposition entirely. And if we have not been faithful with what we have been given....

[D. W. Dickens]

What is spiritual dangerous is not the Jesus Prayer but an inner disposition that wants spiritual experiences - visions, clairvoyance, discernment and in which those experiences feed the passion of spiritual pride. As long as we are not dispassionate, we are all subject to this.

I've never understood this "I got a vision therefore I must be cool" pride temptation. It simply makes no sense to me. I expect that the vast majority of people who had a vision would be utterly humbled by it, not pride-filled. Personally I can only anticipate peace from such a thing. I have spent most of my life exhausting myself kicking against the goads. Why is it such a terrible thing to want to hear the voice of whom I have struggled for (and against) the very foundation of my life?

I suppose my temptation, if anything, is sloth. Some days I'm just tired and need some encouragement. There might be a sort of envy, but not a malicious one. I read stories of folks conversing with angels, as I said, without consideration that such a thing might be extraordinary. Though angels hold no particular interest for me, only my Creator burns inside my heart.

While we aren't supposed to seek after imaginings, I don't see how one can avoid the necessity for the exceptional experience. It appears that if we haven't had one, it's our own fault. Lucky me.

Paul, as for Moses turning around, I'm surprised he didn't.

Andreas, I have heard this poetic imagery before. However, it is inept, because such lovers are prideful, manipulative teases and I will not view God that way.

If my wife would have treated me that way when we were dating I would never have married her. But then I don't desire romanticized "excitement" but rest beside still waters.

Forgive me if I've edged on the too personal in this post. At the very least it might help you all understand my occasionally manic style in other posts in the past.

[Anna Stickles]

I've never understood this "I got a vision therefore I must be cool" pride temptation. It simply makes no sense to me. I expect that the vast majority of people who had a vision would be utterly humbled by it, not pride-filled.


II Cor 12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!


It seems St Paul understood this temptation.

If you have ever read the biography of St Silouan he certainly did.

"The memory of what he had known (his vision) remained but the peace and joy in his heart dwindled away, to be replaced by perplexity and fear of losing what he had had. ...

He went to seek help but ultimately...

At all events, the young and still inexperienced monk Simeon set out on the most difficult, complex, subtle battle against conceit."

St Silouan the Athonite p 35-6

I've read stories of various men and women who had something similar happen and many are those that lose this battle and fall into delusion instead. You see the warning about this all over the ascetic literature. I don't think ultimately that there is anything wrong with wanting to hear God, but I think we are living in delusion if we start to believe that desire is pure apart from dispassion.

[D. W. Dickens]

I was going to say that St Paul's temptation might be very different form mine. I was recently bothered by a visiting priest's talk about how wonderful lent was because God only asks us to fast and that's the easiest thing to do. Of course, he's never lived my life and couldn't possibly know that to fast for a single day is discouragingly regularly a complete failure.

However it does seem like you indicate that many have had this problem. Maybe its a problem generally for holy people, I don't know. I'm just surprised. I can't picture that reaction in myself or my wife or any other person I know well. It sounds to me like the vision wasn't the problem but the fact that it didn't return. Emotionally I can understand that. I suppose it might be said it's better to have not seen than see and then go blind.

There is something paradoxical here. That going closer to God can be harmful if you aren't prepared for it. My latent protestant brain still interprets all "coming together" as God's work and not mine, so this is also hard for me to digest. That is, if I were to see a vision I would assume God would prevent any harm from coming to me.

[Paul Cowan]

My latent protestant brain still interprets all "coming together" as God's work and not mine, so this is also hard for me to digest. That is, if I were to see a vision I would assume God would prevent any harm from coming to me.

Who was the monk that was told by an "angel" that Jesus would visit him the next night and to prepare himself. The next night "Jesus" appeared and he bowed down to him only to get clobbered by the demon pretending to be Jesus.

Another time an angel appeared to a monk and told him he had reached such spiritual heights that he was sent to pray for him so he could spend more time reading the OT. The monk did not pray thinking the "angel" was for him and never read the NT or new anything from it. His spiritual fathers discovered what was going on and put an end to it.

God did not intervene in either of these two cases. It seems in the lives of the saints, there are more stories of demons as visions than angels. I wonder who wants more of our attention. ok, that was worded poorly, but you get the idea.

[Anna Stickles]

There is something paradoxical here. That going closer to God can be harmful if you aren't prepared for it. My latent protestant brain still interprets all "coming together" as God's work and not mine, so this is also hard for me to digest. That is, if I were to see a vision I would assume God would prevent any harm from coming to me.

There are various levels at which we operate, but the action of grace and it's relationship to us, is always the same. God gives the invitiation, but we then must respond as St Theophan in Path to Salvation (http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/salvation_theofan.htm#_)describes here.



The awakening of the sinner is that act of divine grace in his heart, the consequence of which he, as one awakened from sleep, sees his sinfulness, senses the danger of his situation, begins to fear for himself and to care about deliverance from his misfortune and salvation. Previously, he was like a blind man, unfeeling and uncaring with regard to salvation; now he sees, senses and cares.

However, this is still not change. It is only the opportunity for change and the call for it. Grace is only telling the sinner at this point, "See what you have gotten into; look then, take measures for salvation." It merely removes him from his customary bonds and sets him beyond them, thereby giving him the opportunity to choose a completely new life and find his place in it. If he takes advantage of this, it is to his benefit; if he does not, he will be cast again into the very same sleep and the very same abyss of destruction. Part 2 ch. 4

Orthodoxy lives in this reality that God respects our freedom and therefore there are no guarentees. That constant struggle and watchfulness are the only way to preserve and grow in the grace of God. There is no "once saved, always saved" doctrine in Orthodoxy.

But in cases like St Silouan above, where someone has reached some point where God has actually given a real taste of Himself, the very fall from grace is what drives the struggle against sin so that he can get back what was lost. As you noted.

It sounds to me like the vision wasn't the problem but the fact that it didn't return.

Yes, this in context is what is happening. And this then caused the Saint to struggle mightly against the sinful tendencies in himself - forgetfulness of God, wrong thoughts, anger, and the other internal passions that cause a loss of grace and keep the soul from being able to unite with God.



"A new stage began in the spiritual life of the monk Silouan. His first vision of the Lord had ben full of ineffable light, and had brought him a wealth of experience, of abundant love, the joy of the resurrection and an authentic impression of transition from death to life. Why then had it witdrawn? Why had it not been a fit of irrevocable character, in accordance with the word of the Lord, 'and your joy no man taketh from you'? Had the gift been incomplete or had it been too much for his soul to bear?

Now it became evident, and Silouan realized, why he had lost grace - his soul had lacked both knowledge and the strength to bear the gift."


And it took him many, many years of ascetic battle before he gained the needed strength and experience to retain grace. But a lot who start out good, then go astray and don't make it. I would guess from the stories that I read that the most common mistake is to think that because they had some experience, "I've made it. I've arrived." and then try to live in and hold onto the past rather then pressing on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of us. This at least is the impression I get from some of the Protestant literature I've read from the various great awakenings.

I'm glad you don't have the tempation but a lot do. Particularly people coming out of occult or new age type involvement and these are the types who are likely to get enamored with 'psychosomatic techniques' and think that they can just start messing around with stuff without any help and really get themselves in trouble.

I suppose it is kind of like leadership. The person who seeks out power is the one least ready to be in a position of leadership and most likely to be corrupted by such a position. The person who doesn't want the responsibility is the one most likely to succeed in being a good leader.

[Herman Blaydoe]

That is, if I were to see a vision I would assume God would prevent any harm from coming to me.

"...but He is not a tame lion" A description of Aslan, used by C. S. Lewis as a symbol of Christ in his "Narnia Chronicles"

[Father David Moser]

I suppose it is kind of like leadership. The person who seeks out power is the one least ready to be in a position of leadership and most likely to be corrupted by such a position. The person who doesn't want the responsibility is the one most likely to succeed in being a good leader.

Wow, that sounds almost identical to my own ideas of qualifications for the priesthood. The first and most basic qualification for the priesthood is that the person doesn't want to be a priest. If he does want it he is either too proud, thinking that he is able to carry that burden, or he is ignorant and doesn't know what he is asking for. This goes 10x for the episcopacy.

But then this is off topic...

Fr David Moser

[Rick H.]

I have always remembered something I was told by a dean many moons ago about one who is considering becoming a pastor. This man leaned over his desk and told me, in his serious voice, "If you can do anything else, then do it!'

I didn't really understand what he meant at the time; but, I do now.

In Christ,
Rick