The Jesus Prayer

[Andrew Latz]

One of my earliest encounters with the Jesus prayer was in a lecture with Bishop Kallistos Ware. He stated that if one did not have a spiritual father then one should only say the Jesus prayer for about 10 or 15 minutes at a time. I have been doing so since then since I have not spiritual father (am not Orthodox (sadly) - is there any way to have a spiritual father if you're not?). I have also read the other thread about the Jesus prayer and other people warn of the dangers of saying the Jesus prayer without a father. However, people are somehwat vague about this. I don't doubt what people are saying but what precisely is the danger and what should I do since I have no father?
Thanks to anyone who can help.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Andrew,

I am not Orthodox either and I have been praying the Jesus Prayer for over 25 years.

I learned of it from The Way of a Pilgrim I bought from an Episcopalian Church (USA) that was "in neo-pentecostal (or charismatic)renewal."

The need for a spiritual father is to guard against prelest and following one's fanasies.

Be assured that there is no truth to the proposition that anyone has ever "become" schizophrenic as a result of praying it. This perception comes from the association made between the religious pre-occupation schizophrenics have wich is a symptom of their disease. I say this from as many years in the psychatric field (I'm not a psychiatrist, but have been psychiatric technician on locked-wards, and did my bacalaureat work in psychology).

Follow the advice of the RC St. John of the Cross and pay no attention to whatever spiritual experiences you have with the exercise of the prayer. ITMT, pray for a spiritual elder.

Richard

[Daniel Jeandet]

Before all else though, destroy your first delusion and be baptised an Orthodox Christian.

[Andrew Latz]

Thanks Richard. More questions if I may: what is the advice of St. John of the Cross and where could i find it? Do you pray for longer than 10-15 minutes at a time?

[Andrew Latz]

Daniel, could you explain in detail the exlusivism (I use the term without meaning to be prejorative) in your statement? I'm aware that the Orthodox church sees itself as a continuation of the early church but wondered how that belief fared in the ecumenical movement and simply the vast amount of other churches in existence.

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Andrew:

One important qualification to Bishop Kallistos's statement: when he speaks of saying the Jesus Prayer for no more than 10 or 15 minutes at a time, he is referring to what he elsewhere calls the "fixed" or "formal" use of the Prayer: that is, to its use as the sole focus of the mind. When one is using the Prayer informally--as, for example, while waiting in line, washing the dishes, and so on and so forth--there is no such restriction on the amount of time that may be devoted to it without courting mental danger.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta J. Heckscher

[Matthew Panchisin]

No you can not have an orthodox spiritual Father if you are not orthodox. The danger is the cruelty and deception of the evil one.

What you should do is without delay go to the ark of salvation the Great Orthodox Church of Christ and stay there no matter what. Go regardless of the circumstances of you life. Follow everything the Orthodox Church teaches and listen to what your Father confessor tells you.

[John Kapetan]

In the name of the Father and the Son and to the Holy Spirit:

Hi,

To add some words to the discussion at hand, in a previous thread, adding to Matthew's warning, Father Averky had warned us that not only do we need a father confessor, but we need to ask his blessing into even carry out the prayer. He also told us that many monastics would not sell prayer ropes and Orthodox paraaphanalia to the 'non-Orthodox.'

I hope that I actually got his words right.

They weren't only his words, but from the likes of St. Ignatii Brianchaninov and a host of other saints.

In Christ,

John

[Richard Leigh]

Dear John,

Yes, you got Father Averkey's words right. He also said he did not intend an attempt to direct those not officially Orthodox.

Dear Jurretta,

Thank you for that clarification of Kalistos Ware's words,

Dear Andrew,

I practice what Jurretta described, but I don't count minutes.

John of the Cross wrote about the Dark night of the Soul. I cannot recall the name of the book. He was St. Teresa of Avila's spiritual father. This was during the Counter Reformation and they were Spanish. John's advice was to ignore simply any locutions or visions one had while in prayer on the principle that anything from Satan would therefor not hurt and anything from God would give its grace without the sensible part of the experience being dwelt on, sort of like it comes in the sacraments.

Dear Matthew and Daniel (and Andrew, they have our best interests at heart),

On Andrew's behalf I thank you for your kind words and hope that Andrew will forgive my interference, not only for that but for further assuring that we are indeed ridding ourselves of our delusions and righting our worship (or better, seeking that of the Lord). There would be no other reason to be on this list and participate in its descussions unless it were just to disturb you, which is decidedly not our intention!

Had I any to give I'd wish grace and peace,
from where I am I will only request your prayers,

Yours,

Richard

[Beryl Wells Hamilton]

Oh Richard, your last sentence fills me with compassion and tears. Grace and peace are given by the Holy Spirit, who imparts them wherever and to whomever the Father wills. As far as former delusions, I still fight them, as we are all on a journey.

But having said that, the actual, physical act of joining the Orthodox Church through baptism/chrismation/Eucharist, along with continuing participation in Christ the Head and His Body - the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church - washes away all former delusions, fills the believer with the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit, and imparts forgiveness of sins and life everlasting. When it happens to you, you will see the difference. There's no way to describe it in words. You just have to experience it.

With love and prayers,

Beryl

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Beryl,

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

Your posting is beautiful.

In Christ,
Matthew

[Daniel Jeandet]

Andrew, I dont know how that belief fares in the ecumenical movement, perhaps not too well. I dont know, mercifully, its one of the many things I dont need to know.

As for the number of other churches, there are quite a few arent there? I dont think the sheer number of other churches has had any real effect on Orthodoxys exclusivist claims though.

[Owen Jones]

I'm a dissenter I guess on the Jesus Prayer practice. It's a Biblical prayer. It's been used by and even advocated by peripatetics who do not have a permanent church home. There are few spiritual fathers with their own extensive experience with the prayer under direction. So go ahead and use it. Are their risks in the spiritual life of pride and ego-inflation and illusion. Sure. You bet. So too with reading the Bible, reading theology, belief itself. So just go ahead with it and practice self-restraint. Don't look for visions or all of this esoteric stuff about overcomeing all of your illusions, etc. Just pray the prayer without any preconditions or expectations. But don't wait until St. Seraphim of Sarov shows up to start. He's not going to.

[Fr Averky]

Dear All,

Thank you for your interesting answers. Richard, forgive me, but your answer is a bit confusing in that you are using the works of St. John of the Cross to advise people concerning the use of the Jesus Prayer.

John of the Cross was a Roman Catholic "Mystic," and along with Teresa of Avila, had a profound effect on Spanish spiritual life. However, from the Orthodox point of view, John of the Cross simply could not be used as a spiritual guide, just as Thomas a Kempis could not. If one reads some of the "Mystical" experiences by Catholic religious of the time, such as one friar who experienced Jesus Christ reaching down from a crucifix and holding him and them kissing him deeply, one cannot readily believe that the friar was experiencing "spiritual" thoughts! For serious Orthodx people, men like John of the Cross and Francis were deluded to the extreme.

As you point out, I do not presume to advise non-Orthodox, but I would also ask humbly and respectfully that non-Orthodox not give advise which could spiritually damage Orthodox Christians. If by God's mercy, your have benifitted by saying the prayer, then God bless you.

I do, however, take offense when you feel that you personally, from your own limited knowledge, other than studying, assure anyone that saying the Jesus Prayer will not bring them to spiritual harm. Also, to advise others to "follow the advice of the RC John of the Cross and pay no attention whatever spiritual experience with the excercise of the prayer," is not only contradictory, but very, very dangerous!

It is my opinon ( which I rarely say) that It is clear from this particular post that while you might have seen praying the Jesus Prayer for some, time, but it has not been given to you to experience it; rather, in His mercy, God has covered you and protected you, and I believe He has done so because you have a good and kind heart.

My dear Brotherrs and sisters, in another thread, Owen wisely said to Photini, that in regards to spiritual advice, it is best to go to one's own priest. We cannot seek advice from well-meaning and kind people who lack the spiritual knowledge needed, and who are not members of the Orthodox Church for many years. Our own priest isalways the best because he know us and our family, our situation, and speaks to us rather often. If a person does not yet have that relationship with his priest, he should make efforts to do so - it will be better for him and his priest. As a Christian, would you seek advice from a Rabbi or a Imam in matters concerning your salvation? Dear Richard, I wish not to insult you, but am saying that as Owen says, we should seek the advice of our own spiritual guide. What I have to say in my posts on this board concerns general principles, for I have already spoken to members of this forum privately, and then my advice, having been sought, is given on individual needs, knowledge, and understanding.

This thread is a perect example of what I have been saying all along; if you are Orthodox, and would like to say the prayer, simply mention it to your parish priest, so that he will know and will bless. It is that simple. Alas, it is true, it is very hard to find a sound spiritual father, but we then must turn to the writings of the Fathers of the Orthodox Church, not to just anyone. Asking for and receiving advice which concerns one's personal salvation on an internet message board, puts everyone involved in a certain amount of danger in that if unsound advice is given, and then taken and acted upon, leading to further spiritual problems, both parties will have to be answerable to God. Neither can we rely upon our own feelings or thoughts, for they can be easily manipulated by the Evil One.

Dear Andrew, it is not possible to have a spiritual father in the true sense if you are not Orthodox, but if you can seek out an Orthodox priest near where you live, and go talk to him, sincerely and openly, and I am sure he will be more than happy to help you.

There many dangers in saying the Jesus Prayer, and many of the are quite subtle.
Here are some excerpts from "On the Jesus Prayer," by Saint Ignatius Briachaninov:

"The most sublime mental activity is extraordinarily simple. It needs for its acceptance child-like simplicity and faith. But we have become so complicated that it is just this simplicity which is inaccesible, incomprehensible, to us. We want to be clever, we want to revive our own ego, we cannot bear self-renunciation,or self-denial, we have no desire to live and act by faith. It is for this reason that we need a guide to lead us out of our complexity, out of our impertinance, out of our cunning, out of our vanity, and self confidence, into the breadth and simplicity of faith. That is why it frequently happens that in the field of mental activity, the child attains phenomenal success, while the learned man loses his way and falls into the dark pit of delusion."

"Extremely good is the method of practising the Jesus Prayer taught by Dorotheus, the Russian ascetic and spiritual writer:
"He who prays with the lips, he says, "but neglects his soul and does not guard his heart, prays to the air, and not to God; and he labours in vain, because God attends to the mind and fervour, not an excess of words. One should pray with all one's fervour, with one's soul, and mind and heart, with the fear of God, and with all one's strength. Mental prayer does not allow either distractions or foul thoughts to enter the inner sanctum."

And finally, St. Ignatius firmly states:

"If it is forbidden for monks to strive prematurely for prayer offered by the mind in the temple of the heart, still more, it is forbidden to laypeople. St. Andrew the Fool for Christ and a few others-and extremely few laypeople - had the most profound prayer of the heart. This is an exception, and the greatest rarity, which cannot possible serve as a rule for all. To class oneself among these exceptional personalities is nothing but self-deception due to conceit-hidden delusion prior to obvious delusion."

"So how can laypeople, without obedience, by self-directionwhich is accompanied by delusion, force themselves to such an awful and terrifying work, that is, to such prayer, without and kind of guidance? How will they be able to escape the diverse and varied illusions of the enemy most cunningly directed against this prayer and those who practise it?

As you can see, my words of caution are very mild in comparison to the words of Saint Ignatius. I feel that soon I will stop posting on Monachos, because I see Orthodoxy being played with and kicked around like a soccer balkl in some sort of mind game. I can give answers and opinions which I have been taught by monks of many years, the Holy Scriptures, the Teachings of the Church, and the Holy Fathers. I am not able to deal with situations any further when non-Orthodox laypeople are telling people to say the Prayer of the Heart, using as their "expert" in prayer, a deluded Roman Catholic Mystic. My dear Owen, I find I cannot agree with you on your dissent, but will suggest that people follow your very good advice to Photini- go to your priest! I just received a private letter from someone who let me know in no uncertain terms that they read the Philokalia every Friday night-as if to say to me, "Say what you want, but I will do what I want." Several people have contacted me privately, seeking help and advice, and I have told them I am not by any means a spiritual father but have only tried to be helpful, again from what I have been taught, I have lovingly given made some suggestions and, as one person put it, he disregards my words, almost cunningly.

As I have said before on other threads, we are living in a sad and tragic age, where people have becoime so full of themselves and their views and ideas that they now think that if they have a personal "opinion," then that opinion is for them, the Truth. There is no way that one can reason with such people. Men have become their own god, and the God I know is someone to be discussed, read about, but not to be the center of people's lives.

The translator of "On the Prayer of Jesus" writes:
"...The Jesus Prayer acts as a constant reminder to make man loo inwards AT ALL TIMES, to become aware ,of his fleeting thoughts, sudden emotions and even movements so that it may make him try to control them."

"One is advise to repeat the Prayer of Jesus in 'silence and solitude.'
Silence here is meant to include inner silence; the silence of one's own mind, the arreesting of the imagination from the ever-turbulent and ever-present stream of thoughts, words, impressions pictures and day dreams, which keep one asleep.
Solitude may mean many things. It certainly means a phase, at least , of physical solitude. But it also implies the solitude of one;s soul, the elimination of all ordinary human frailities, of human weaknesses. The awful solitude of the Self."
"It is generally agreed that our modern world, although it has achieved much in the way of progress, has also lost a great deal of spiritual strength: the morals and principles of people are at a very low ebb. The mere fact that ammoral movemdents such as facism and communism have occured in this century shows this loss of spirituality amongst civilized people. Our highly organized material civilization without a correspondingly high level
of spiritual development is indeed a "house built on sifting sands," and as a result, we are all unbalanced and unstable." Fr. Lazarus Moore

Andrew, find a good priest to talk to pray and ask God to guide you in the direction you should go. In regards to the davice of Bishop Kallistos, with all due respect, may I suggest that you read the lives of Orthodox saints, read books like "My Life in Christ," by St. John of Kronstadt, and the Prologue, by St. Nikolaij Velimirovich They are not "theological" books, but will give you a taste of the savor of Orthodoxy thought and piety. The Prologue is exceptionally good, because it gives not only the lives of saints for every day, but a reflection and a short sermon. St. Nikolai was not only a great bishop, but a prolific author, and his works show how loving and pastoral he was, and for a person seeking the Faith, such reading is much more helpful than starting at the "top" with theological or patristic books.

In closing this too long answer, Andrew, I will again quote St. Ignatius:

What is written by every holy writer is written from his spiritual level ( attainment), and from his practice (experience), in conformity with his level and practice. We must pay special attention to this point. Let us not be carried away and enraptured by a book written as if with fire that tells of high states and activities for which we are unfit. The reading of such a book, by firing the imagination, can harm us by communicating a knowledge and desire for labours that are untimely and impossible for us. Let us apply ourselves to a book of a Father nearer to our state in the matter of attainment."

Andrew, if you have no interest in bcoming Orthodox at the present time, you could still read the books which I have recommended, but I personally maintain that you should not say the Prayer. May God bless and help you.

To all of my Orthodox brothers and sisters, as I have stated before, I personally have no problem with laypeople saying the Prayer of the heart, but please, at least mention it to your priest. I myself have lately become desirous of concentrating on the Prayer, but will son go to my spiritual father and seek his advice as to whether or not if this a proper time, or if I should wait. Read again the translator's words starting with"One is advised to repaeat the prayer of Jesus in 'silence and solutude,' and the next paragraph, and ask yourself, "Have I reached the described in these words? Can I say I have achieved such silence and solitude? Can I pray and not be distracted?" I do not think many of us can say that -I know I can't. It can be done, but with humility, patience, and love of God and neigbor.

Sincerely, and asking for forgiveness from all,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

My dear in the Lord, Richard

Forgive me, for it looks like I am really picking on you personally -As you know, my frustration with you is that I still firmly believe that you could be a very good Orthodox Christian if you could manage to unclog your brain with all the information about the Church that you have collected over the years and instead seek the simplicity of heart of which Christ and the Holy Fathers speak. I firmly believe that you are a good and most kind person, and I realize that at all times, you wish to be helpful, but sometimes, there are certain areas where we should simply acknowldege that we are not so knowledgeable. When I read the threads that you, Owen and the venerable Richard McBride post on, I am made painfully aware of how I did not delve into more opportunities to furhter educate myself when I was in university. At time, we Orthodox are accused of being"anti-intellectual," but that really is not the case at all. We simply look at approaching God in a different manner. I wanted to write this to you pubicly, because although we often might sharply disagree, I do respect all of your efforts to the good, even when I feel that you a bit out of your depth. You have had many good and profound things to say, and I have appreciated them very much.

Fr. A.

[M. Rallis]

Dear Richard Leigh,

In Post #180 you express your desire to be “ridding ourselves of our delusions and righting our worship”. And, indeed, more than desiring , you assure us that you are doing these things. My question to you is this: is it better to study, observe, and have an intellectual understanding of undeluded right worship, or to experience, partake, taste, and gain the “knowledge by experience” spoken of in an earlier post? And another question: is there any assurance of escaping delusion and achieving right worship outside of living our life as a member of Christ’s body?

[Matthew Panchisin]

Saints show up in Orthodox Churches. During the Divine Liturgy Orthodox Christians hear the celebrant say Blessed be the entrance of thy Saints. So does he who is escorted by the angelic host Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Cheribim, Seraphim, six winged many eyed being soaring upon their pinions singing the triumphal hymn, shouting, crying aloud, and saying: Holy, Holy, Holy Lord of sabaoth heaven and earth are full of your glory Hosanna in the highest! Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest!

Saints are real. They breathed like you and I and to some people they have shown up. And there are many Saints that can show up if it is Gods will. We can learn about them in the book The Lives of the Saints.

Angels are real. They are bodiless powers created before the creation of the physical universe. The English word "angel" comes from the Greek word for "messenger." Throughout the Scripture, angels are messengers who carry the Word of God to earth (e.g. Gabriel's visit to Mary, Luke 1:26-38). The Orthodox Church teaches that there are nine "choirs" or groups of angels: Angels, Archangels, Powers, Authorities, Principalities, Dominions, Thrones, Cherubim, and Seraphim (see Gen. 3:24; Is. 6:2; Eph. 1:21; Col. 1:16; 1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Pet. 3:22).

I've seen many people who venerate the icon of St. Seraphim of Sarov with tearful devotion for varying lengths of time. Perhaps Andrew shouldn't wait for St. Seraphim to show up. Perhaps he should go pray before his icon in an Orthodox Church and say the Jesus prayer one time for one hundreth of a second with his whole heart "fixed" or "formal".

I hope this is enough.

With love in Christ,
Matthew

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Prayer of the Heart

I should no longer be amazed, but it happens so often that it leaves me in awe and wonder -- that is to say, how often the Lord opens up to us a small portion of His plan for things. At the moment I am in wonder over the small little lesson of what is being discussed under this thread, and how the daily readings are (as it happens so often) a reflection upon what is said here.

The reading from the Apostle today is Romans 14:9-18; but I point to these two verses:

13. So then each of us shall give account to God.
14. Therefore, let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this: Not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

How amazing it is that so many times the Lord takes this trouble to remind, that nothing happens without His knowledge.
.................................................. ................

And Matthew, I am delighted the Spirit has moved you to say these good things.

richard mcb

[Daniel Jeandet]

First off, forgive me Andrew for my smartarse comments to you. I'm an idiot. I often post on this site and then look at what Ive written and just think what an idiot I am.

Thankyou Father Averky for your very good post. I needed it. Like you, I am getting tired of this board, but I cant help myself!

Some things people say make me spin out.

Anyone who knows what the Fathers mean when they warn about delusions in prayer would not have written what Owen wrote. Ignore what Owen wrote.

Father Averky, we are wretched! We live in the world and there is this tension, people really want something more out thier faith than what they have found. We read and read and we talk and talk, then suddenly we say: "but what should we actually do?" So we read the Fathers and they say, follow Christs commandments and in them you will find life. But we really dont believe that we need to follow the Commandments of Christ. We say, Im Orthodox, Im a real Christian, look, I know this and Ive read that and I can tell you all about them. But its all in our heads! Father Averky is right, listen to him! Its our opinions that we worship. We are trapped. We say, Oh, I really want to know God. But the Fathers say, before you can know God, you have to forget everything you have learned in the world through the senses. How many takers are there for that? Who wants to stop worrying about what they will eat and wear? Even our priests are reluctant to guide us in the way of Christs Commandments, as if they are scary or something! But without the resolve to follow Jesus, how can we talk about theology and prayer of the heart and such things? Ive jsut read some of St Symeons words where he tells some monks off for discussing theological subjects without having fulfilled the Commandments. He says they dont realise they will be tried for this. We dont think this applies to us though. We are smarter than those saints! we understand theology very well!

Im wondering if the internet is a good place for Christians to talk. It just gets too wordy and its too easy to post something quickly without thinking. We cant even see each other.

Sorry Ive ranted on like this. Please check out the document by Phillip Sherrard that I posted on the other thread, intellect, questioning and Orthodoxy. Its really good. Its all about our state of illusion due to our self worship and our enslavement to self-delusion. It is a very sobering read.

sorry anyone if this post is stupid, but I cant tell until after its done.

[Andrew Latz]

Some thanks: to Daniel and Matthew for trying to help; to Fr. A. for his many valid points; to Richard for his thoughts.

Fr. A. perhaps you could clarify why you think I shouldn’t say the Jesus prayer. I take your point about not seeking spiritual direction on the internet. That’s not really what I’m trying to do. I’m just interested in what people mean when they talk about ‘dangers’. I’m not sure my question has been answered. I don’t ask out of idle curiosity. The more I learn about Orthodox spirituality (and theology for that matter) the more it feels like home. I have been saying the prayer ‘formally’ and by God’s mercy it’s been helping me learn to be silent. Perhaps these latter two points strike you as a bad idea. If so, please explain why.

[Photini]

Andrew-

Unfortunately recently I have come to realise that this forum may not be ideal for the average person who has real life inquiries. Things are taken the wrong way, because it is impossible to read someone's tone of "voice" in a written form. After my last post, I felt seriously like I had been spurned with sarcasm and told to go away. I was not seeking a highly spiritual answer, but more just checking if anyone had felt this similar way. There are not many valid candidates on this forum that I would seek spiritual counsel from anyway.

Truly, if it had been possible to "simply go back to the priest" that would surely be what I would do. But sometimes things aren't so simple.

Sorry for letting my stupid emotions hang out again. But I don't want to be thinking about it anymore. Daniel I think you're on to something about Christians not talking in internet forums. Everyone that I've seen, there's always people who end up leaving because of stupid misunderstandings. It's just too easy.

Again I'm sorry for asking so many dumb questions that aren't on the same plane as everyone else's, and sorry for misunderstanding the answers to them. After all, I'm just a sinner...Not the bright shining warrior that I should be.

Very shamefully yours,
Photini

[Andrew Latz]

Photini,
there are no dumb questions and I'm not sure you can separate 'real life' questions from more academic ones. I think I read what you're talking about and, though I don't know the full context, it seemed pretty harsh to me. I hope you get answers from somewhere even if you feel you can't get them from here. Don't be ashamed: we're all sinners, that's precisely who Christ came to save.
Andrew

[Beryl Wells Hamilton]

A quick note to correct what I had written earlier:


"Grace and peace are given by the Holy Spirit, who imparts them wherever and to whomever the Father wills. As far as former delusions, I still fight them, as we are all on a journey."

The second part shows why the first part isn't right thinking.

If I had said this correctly, I wouldn't have to post again. I did exactly same thing about a month ago on this forum, and then posted a correction, which Fr. Averky affirmed.

Let's try again, this time with a more Orthodox mindset:

Grace and peace - indeed, all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit - are not meted out, but are available always, freely and unlimited, to all who would allow the Lord to make us worthy to receive them, to heal our broken heart, that it might become an open and useful vessel, for these gifts are already there in the heart, waiting to be discovered.And the Lord also waits for his children to find them, to grow into them as He enlarges our heart.

This from Isaiah 30:18

18 Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you;
And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you.
For the Lord is a God of justice;
And where will you abandon your glory?
Blessed are all those who wait for Him.

Beryl

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father Averky,

There should be no confusion at all, except perhaps for the fact that this is an open forum, and the advice I, a non-Orthodox give to a fellow non-Orthodox in answer to a question he posed to all might be mistaken by the Orthodox as for them. A potential confusion we're all open to and can learn from so long as we remain true to who (and what) we are.

I must add, however that I had said all that about St. John, and that besides, he was part of the Counter-Reformation which has some touch with Orthodoxy if one has the time and inclination to read its history. Unseen Warfare as edited by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain and revised by Theophan the Reclusestarted as The Spiritual Combat and Path to Paradise of the equally Roman Catholic cleric of the Counter Reformation, Lorenzo Scupoli. Notice that it was edited by Nicodemus, who was of the Holy Mountain, and I think Greeek (though I'll take correction on this if I'm wrong), and needed further revision by the Russian St. Nicodemus. None-the-less a good deal of what the Italian Scupoli had taught remains (because perceived true). The point being that spiritual direction from the otherwise non-Orthodox is not necessarily anti- or counter-Orthodox, and not everything presented as Orthodox is necessarily complete.

We are all here for each other, which is the meaning of Love.

May God grant Harmonious Peace
and increase of Light,

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Have it your way Richard, you always do. There is no use to talk to you, because you see another person's statement as not something to be considered, prayed about and perhaps even applied; for you, it is just another opportunity to spout off on how much you know and have studied. Many times I have attempted to help a fellow Orthodox Christian, or anyone who has asked with a concern, only to be contradicted by non-Orthodox, who, because of their "studies," can endlessly quote sources from any number of books to refute my words, not trying to help me with that knowledge, but to prove me wrong. Studying Christianity and living it are two different things. It pains me to see sincere people exposed to all of this pompus posturing, for the Church and salvation are not some silly mind game, but is a very serious matter. Again, anyone, who in their pride and folly, leads the soul of another astray, will pay not only with the possible loss of his salvation, but the other person's as well. Some people on this forum seem to have no fear of God and His judgement; I do, and I fear for the souls of innocent people who might be damaged by remarks and advice given by those who like to show off their "knowledge," but show little or no concern for the people to whom they give this advice. It is like our Saviour said, "It is what comes out of your mouth that condemns you, not what you put in it." I too have been guilty of letting my passions over take me, and have shown anger and impatience, but I do feel that I have tried to be circumspect about what I have had to say, and have always made it clear that my words are from those who taught me, and what I haave read over the years. I feel that there is no reason for me to be in this community any longer. I think I will leave it to the educated and knowledgable ones, and pray that God will cover them in their words in order not to harm the souls of the innocent. It is like our Saviour said, "You have ears, but you do not hear, you have eyes, but you do not see." From my heart, I have sincerely tried to bring to this forum my experience as priest and as "monachos," but I see that it simply is not accomplishing anything, and I am filled with profound sorrow.
.

Father A.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Fr. Averky,

You were apparently dammaged by what I said to Andrew who asked what any of us could tell him, and by what I said to you to explain what I took to be misunderstood words to him by you.

I repent of causing you to sin, please forgive me but please don't mistake our relationship lest I find myself straying again.

Richard

[Monk Ivan]

Dearest Father A:

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

I was quite elated, filled with joy and happiness that comes only from the Lord when I read your last Posting!

I have been reading your posts for the last 6 months and have been sadened each time with the way, the manner of your response to those of us who are here to learn.

I have never in my life found in the Divine Masters words of teaching such pride and self concite. However now it seems with the help of RICHARD you have come to realize that you ARE DOING MORE HARM than good in being here.

You have hurt, misguided and caused confusion in many persons.


As in your advice, go and present yourself to YOUR priest and ask for giveness and direction in YOUR life. Go and ask He who knows you so that you might be convicted in the Holy place and make peace with yourself and prostrate on the last stone of the Holy Temple and as the sinner spoke so humbly, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner!"

Know you will be in our prayers that your pride may be purified in the burning pot as is gold that after glitters and shines and gives honor and glory to God for it beauty.

Peace be to you! May you find peace!

Blessings!

[Justin]

Saint Symeon the New Theologian, after speaking about the disciple (Peter?) who defended Christ with a sword at the time of His betrayal, said that a spiritual son should do the same for his spiritual father. I think the same could be said for defending any good man--if we understand our sword to be something other than that which can harm a life (whether physically or spiritually). Unfortunately for me, I am not a skilled enough swordsman to come at you without doing damage. However, no that I would if I could.

What possible good was done by posting something publically that could have been sent privately (if you indeed believe what you wrote)? Do you really believe all that you said? and if so, please tell me that you tried to contact him sooner and didn't wait until he had apparently left to come out of the woodwork and tell him what a prideful, self-conceited fellow he is?

I have found Fr. A's words convicting and edifying, and when they were slightly harsh... they were just as much--if not more--edifying. I know of others who feel the same way. There's a story in the Desert Fathers that goes something like this: "If a visitor comes, we talk, and then he leaves, and I find that I have not been edified, I examine myself so that I can figure out why, what I have done wrong". Have you ever heard of this story?

[Justin]

After further consideration, I regret posting the above. It's not my role to defend everyone and try to put my word in in every situation. Forgive me.

[Daniel Jeandet]

Andrew,

I will try to help you understand what is meant by dangers in saying the Jesus prayer. God, in his mercy, allows us to exist in a state of illusion and self-deception, a state that can only be transformed and renewed through the deepest repentance and perfect hatred for the liar and his lies.

The number one lie that we have whispered in our ear every day is that our illusion is not so deep. That our sins are not so bad that we cannot know the difference between good and evil. It is extremely difficult for us to even begin to accept that we cannot trust ourselves in this state. A passionate heart, a heart addicted and enslaved to illusion about istelf and its Creator, is nothing but a factory of self-serving lies and conceits. For evil proceeds out of our hearts.

In Orthodoxy, the spiritual life is experienced in three main stages. The first is purification, the war against passions and sin. A struggle to lose our life. A war, 24/7, against every movement of the heart and mind that is against our nature as created by God. Success, by Gods grace in this war, leads to a state of dispassion. A fruit of dispassion, and of the struggle to be purified that aims for dispassion, is the discernment of spirits. The ability to distingish between Uncreated and created. To have discernment is to be gifted with knowing what thoughts come from the devil, and what thoughts come from God.

In our state of being dominated by passions, we are unable to discern the difference between these two types of movements. We are not only enslaved to passionate desires for things and against our fellow humans, we are also subject to the passions of our mind and heart that obscure and distort the truth about ourselves. That is why we find it so hard to be contradicted or to be obedient. We have a sickness of the mind that says we are always right, or that we can trust our thoughts and feelings to guide us in the spiritual life. The devil laughs at this, the easiest victory for him, effortless, we fight against ourselves with our own pride.

The Jesus Prayer is one of the Orthodox Churches spiritual traditions. It is a part of Orthodox practice that is bound up with this effort to free ourselves from delusion. When a person, by Gods grace, decides he wishes to be saved and resolves to stand against the devil and his armies of liars and murderers, those armies wage war against him full force, in a titanic battle over the soul of the person, the outcome of which will decide his eternal destiny.

Anyone who thinks himself smarter than the devil is already dead. Anyone who thinks he can discern spirits without a life of self-denial, the keeping of the commandments, and the most sincere and deep mourning for his sins leading to the Holy state of dispassion and friendship with God, is already dead.

The deceptions and lies of the enemy are so clever and subtle and so bound up with our pride and self-trust, that for a person to stay outside the Church, I mean, for them to not discern his Holy Church when they find it, and submit themselves to his Holy will by falling down in gratitude for this treasure opened before them and for his showing them the One true Church within which they may be saved, and yet to seek to take up the practises and Holy traditions of the Church without membership within its walls through the sacraments and its grace-filled teachings, is really going against the whole purpose of and spirit of these practices. That is, to destroy, or to have the Holy Spirit destroy, with our co-operation, our passions of pride and illusion and trust of our defiled hearts and to humbly submit in every possible way to the will of Him who is the head of the One and Holy Church.

I hope, Andrew, you are not offended by what I have said, although if you are, I cannot say I have this on my conciense because I believe I say nothing that is not in accord with the Traditions and teachings and Spirit of the whole celestial and light-bearing realm of Holy Fathers to whose prayer you wish to join your own.

I hope this has been helpful and I hope you find your way into the Orthodox Church. We can only say so much to you here on this site, so reading some books about Orthodoxy and talking to an Orthodox priest would be the best thing you can do for yourself right now, if you truly intend to seek the Truth above every earthly thing that begins and ends.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Justin,

Thank you, but I do not need defending from the Monk Ivan, who seems to know my heart and my intentions better than I do. Over the last months I have tried my best to uphold that Orthodox Church which I consider to be very precious. If I have made a major mistake, it is that I overlooked the very important fact, that as Richards says, this is an open forum. Perhaps I have been in a "hothouse " situation to long, and if the Monk Ivan does not agree with my defending what I consider to be important facts concerning the Orthodox Church, I am sorry if that offends him, but the Church is the Church, and I will not compromise on what I believe.

If I have harmed anyone, I certainly ask their forgiveness; I have been firm and at times impatient, but I certainly cannot and will not seek anyone's forgiveness, especially Monk Ivan in regards to my upholding what I have been taught and believe. In many questions, I have tried to be careful in my answers, such as that of being received by Chrismation rather Baptism. I have very definite beliefs about this, but when I posted my reply, I simply said that it is up to each individual bishop.

I do not know who you are, Monk Ivan; what church you are in, who tonsured you, what monastic experience you have had and who your spiritual father is. If you feel I have harmed others, then you are welcome to your opinion, although I am being foolish enough to think that not too many will agree with you. While I do not adhere to the concept of "univesal love" to which many Orthodox churches have fallen into, thinking that all differences can be smoothed over and washed away by a false "love." No, Monk Ivan, I stand on the firm ground of my belief, and if I weaken and become harsh, you might see it as harmful because I am not "loving" enough. I have made every effort to be loving to all in my words and in my answers. Richard Leigh, Richard McBride, Owen, Photini, David,and others can tell you that I have contacted them personally and we have had more to say to each other than on this forum.
I am at peace with myself, Monk Ivan, and on this forum I have spoken openly about my monastic struggles in order for others to to know that I have my own problems and sins, and trials, and I have no problem sharing them. I do not know you, as I said, and I can only hope that indeed you will pray for me, and I ask that you start posting yourself and share that wisdom, knowledge and love you see to be lacking in me, which I will not refute, for I am a wretched sinner.

In a recent private letter to a person who felt he had been insulted by members of this forum, I tried to explain that it is a part of Orthodoxy, for good or bad, that Orthodox peoples have no problem with shouting and becoming quite passionate about differences in opinion -this is especially true among the Greeks and Arabs, who, if told by a Westerner observing their seeming agitation to be at "Peace," would look at the person if they were a bit mad. "Peace?" they would say,"We are not angry, we are only having a difference in opinion!" And so it goes. I get upset with Richard Leigh, but it is because I forget from time to timed that this community is made up of Orthodox and non-Orthodox. I also get upset with him ( and we have discussed this ) because I feel he could be such a good Orthodox Christian if only he would decide to commit himself to the Church, rather than to "study" it. I have felt that all along, and he knows it.

I am ashamed for defending myself, for it, goes against all I have been taught, but I just hope that the people who participate in this community and not those who merely observe, know that 95% of what I have had to say in my responses has always been said with the greatest love and concern. As for the other 5%, I will not even try to justify myself for losing patience, but I will say that when I have, I have turned around and asked for forgiveness, and I especially ask your forgiveness, Monk Ivan, if I have scandalized a fellow and much better monk than I, by my words. I attempted to send you a letter in private, but found that that is not possible, so I am forced to address you in public, which is not to my liking at all. I remember the very first time you posted, I wrote you a message, asking about you and your monastery in San Diego, and you never answered me.


Monk Ivan, I publicly ask you to contact me privately and to teach me, correct me, and tell me what to do, since you know my heart and intentions so well and have chosen publicly to judge me. I am guilty of the same, for I do get frustrated and impatient, because people will ask a question, get an answer, and then proceed to argue the point. I find myself thinking, "Well, if you thought you knew the answer in the first place, or know better, then why did you ask?" I will admit that I have fallen into the sin of judging others, but I have spoken to them about it, and did not conceal it in my heart.

I have gotten much good out of this forum, and I have learned a lot, sad to say, not to be patient, one of my many sins. So many people on this forum, Owen, Photini, Adonis, Effie, John Wilson, Jurretta, James Anthony, Brother Paul, and our good Moderator, Matthew Streenburg , have touched my heart and opened my eyes to so very much by their good words, pious insights and intelligence even when we might have had our clashes. Owen soundly chewed on me because I mentioned that our President has done away with State Dinners and instead invites heads of state to his Texas ranch. We went around and around, but even though Owen says many things that are like throwing a match into dry straw,but I still respect his integrity, and he is very dear to me. Owen says many, many things with which I disagree, but he has said so many wise and truly intelligent things which have been overlooked in the heat of the battle by his opponents.

I again ask forgiveness from all of you if unknowingly and unwillingly I hurt you, for it would never have been the case of desiring so. Father Ivan, thank you for pointing out my folly, and may you win many crowns for your words. If you wish to contact me privately and point out my many sins, please do, and I will listen to you.

Richard, I always hope the best for you and you have known that all along, for we have talked about it privately as well as on this forum. As you know, I am not the only one who has asked you why you have not come to the Orthodox Church - people see that there is something about you - and yet, you choose to remain a "student," and forgive me, but I do not see that you are truly committed to being a Lutheran. It might be a comfortable spot for you, but I have asked myself "Why is Richard Leigh so interested in matters Orthodox, and why does he not sign on to a Lutheran message board?" It is all a mystery, and I do not know your heart in this matter, but I remember you and all the members of this community every day in my prayers.

Sorry that I had such an outburst today, but having said how I felt I can look at things better. Richard, I did not understnd one line of your post - something about "mistake our relationship." Could you please explain?

Father A.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Daniel,

Of course I can't speak for Andrew, but I can say for myself that your words were very wise and lovely. I shall treasure them myself.

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear David,

Thank you for such a beautiful, calm, and insightful answer to Andrew. I think that I mentioned that only a few times have I myself experienced even a taste of the depth of the prayer.

My Western mentality shows when I attempt to be too judicial in my answers, especially when I am fearful for the souls of others.

Dear Andrew, I hope that the firestorm that you simple enquiry set off will at least allow you to see how adamant we Orthodox are about preserving the integrity of our Church. I have been hoping all along that when I have cautioned people concerning the Jesus Prayer, it has not because I see it as something only for the spiritual elite. I will go so far as to say that I do not particularly feel as does St. Ignatius, that only monks can say the Prayer of the Heart, even though I fully understand why he limits it as he does.

As Jurretta says, it can be said at time when otherwise a person could find himself impatient and upset: caught in traffic, waiting in the long line at the bank, waiting to have a root-canal, and so on.

Yet, as David so wonderfully explains, it is a prayer that, strictly speaking, is within the provenance of the Orthodox Church. When you told us that Bishop Kallistos Ware had mentioned saying the Jesus Prayer if you had no Spiritual Father, I find myself wondering why he did not suggest spiritual reading instead. I do not question his wisdom, but I just feel that it is good to know the teachings of a Church before one desires to participate in Her life in any way.

I think that I will find that most converts will agree with me when I tell you that we "read" ourselves into becoming Orthodox. David's words to you are very wise; find some books on Orthodoxy, like "The Orthodox Church," by Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware, but an edition at least ten years old, and some of the books I have already mentioned. God help you , we will be praying for you.

Love in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Daniel,

Sorry, I called you David by mistake.

Fr. A.

[M. Rallis]

Monk Ivan:
Shouldn’t you share with this community in what monastery, and under what Bishop and hierarchical jurisdiction, you serve?

Daniel Jeandet:
Nice post!

Fr. Averky:
In some ways you remind me of my own father, someone never so much interested in being popular with me or making me feel comfortable, but always out of an abundance of love challenging me to live in a God-pleasing way.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Michael,

Thank you for understanding me, I really appreciate it. God bless you and your father.

Father A.

[Richard McBride]

Well said, Beloved of the Lord, Daniel;

But don't let it go to your head.

I am particularly fond of these few sentences:


"That is why we find it so hard to be contradicted or to be obedient. We have a sickness of the mind that says we are always right, or that we can trust our thoughts and feelings to guide us in the spiritual life. The devil laughs at this, the easiest victory for him, effortless, we fight against ourselves with our own pride."

Again, don't listen to these words of praise, Daniel, for they will turn you into something at which the devil laughs. You, especially, are taking great chances in inciting the enemy this way; but we are appreciative your love for us.

We must all pray for Daniel first, then for rest of us sinners.

richard mcb

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear fellow participants on this message board:

This might perhaps be a good time for me to say what I have often thought: that even when I dissent from something Father Averky has said (whether in my own mind or in a message), I learn from him, because to disagree with someone whose goodness commands one's respect requires either that one change one's views to accord with his (or hers) or that one probe one's own viewpoint more deeply to make sure that its integrity is equal to the integrity of the respected opponent's views.

Far more importantly, Father Averky's postings are unfailingly motivated by a genuinely loving concern for all who participate in these discussions, and I can never learn enough from that.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta Heckscher

[Fr Averky]

Dear Jurretta,

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, we have not always agreed, but we have contacted each other outside of this forum, and know that we share mutual respect and the common love for our Saviour. You are alwqays in my prayers.

Fr. A.

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Thank you, Fr. Averky! Your prayers are a precious gift, and I do not deserve them. But I certainly need them, so I thank you with all my heart.

You are in my prayers also, such as they are.

--Jurretta

[Daniel Jeandet]

You, Richard Mcbride, are my teacher.

Glory to God for the Mystery of His Holy Cross and the victory that he brings out of defeat!

[Andrew Latz]

Daniel,
thank you! What a brilliant post. It helped a lot, I'm not the least bit offended. And now I understand Fr A's words, so thank you Fr A too. Also, I intend to read 'The Orthodox Church' by Ware (and 'The Orthodox Way') as soon as I can. I'm trying to read about Orthodoxy but my degree takes up much time.
I have some questions still.
Danial: when you say 'dispassion', what do you mean?
In your comments about our deluded state, how much room do you leave for the original goodness of creation, our being made in God's image?
And one for Daniel and Fr A (I too appreciate your words Fr A): if I am not yet able to be Orthodox, is it better to have nothing to do with the Church at all (not my desire) or better to say the prayer? I see that you think salvation is only (predominantly? only certainly?) in the Orthodox church but if I don't say the prayer it's almost as if I'm giving myself up to being lost rather than participating fully in the Church. Does that make sense?

[Daniel Jeandet]

If Father Averky doesnt mind, I will jump in first. (even if he does mind, since I am not waiting to see).

Those are good books to start with, I read these when I first found the Church and they are highly recommended by all. First off, I dont think anyone who is within the traditions of the Church would dare to say that Salvation is only found there. The Church speaks for itself and states only where the fullness of Grace and Truth is to be found for certain, that is, within Her, and does not generally try to state where it is not.

The question of dispassion is a very deep and profound one, and reflects the central teaching of the Church, that God became man in order for man to become like God.

Please understand that the following is a very brief explanation of some of the basic teachings of the Church and a very pale reflection of the teachings found in the writings of the Holy Fathers who transmit it as a fruit of experience and not like me, by just repeating what I have read. Reading the Fathers own words is a spiritual practice in itself and their illuminated state is apparent (I believe) in that experience.

Orthodoxy is not moralistic or absract in its approach to theology, in the way that other denominations and "versions" of Christianity tend to be. This is because the Orthodox Church has preserved the Traditions of the apostles in full. It not only lays claim to unbroken Apostolic succesion, it also claims (and if the claim where not true the world would surely cease to exist) to have preserved the origional teachings and practices of the Apostles and first Christians that that are alluded to in the scripture, particularly in the Epistles of Saint Paul, that have been lost over time in the west as a result of the west roman empires dislocation from the eastern roman empire (which remained Orthodox) and the emergence of the Papacy, scholastic (rationalistic) theology and the inevitable rebellion of its unfortunate children. What I would say, is that Orthodoxy has preserved both the exoteric and the esoteric sides of the teaching found in scripture. Both the law and the spirit of the Gospels and thus the indivisible union between practice and knowledge remains and is unerringly taught by the spiritual masters of the Orthodox Church and this fullness of Life in the Holy Spirit is identical to that which the apostles were initiated into on the day of Pentecost.

But im thinking of how well I write and forgetting your question http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

My comments about our deluded state and your question about the origional goodness of creation are directly related to the state of dispassion attained by our Holy Saints and Fathers. It is the teaching of the Church that Adam was created as the link between God and his creation. Between the Un-created and the created. When Adam fell, his link to his Un-created Creator was broken. As a result, the natural functioning of his soul was distorted and dislocated. This was, and is, the first death). The image of God was lost. The Grace and Light of the Creator no longer shone within, and through Adam, onto the creation. Man being the link between God and creation, the creation also fell along with him. This is hard (and frightening) to try to talk about. Adam, now being subject to the passions, and having his spiritual intellect darkened, was no longer able to perceive reality in the way he did in the Garden, when he percieved it through his unfallen, fully spiritualised being. Since God is reality and Adam lost his communion with God, he also lost communion with the reality around him and became enslaved to the senses and the lower aspects of cognition as his sole means of perception. It seems to me that the Fathers teach that we are unable to see the goodness of the Creation because we are yet unworthy of this vision, remaining as we do in the fallen state. The pure in heart shall see God. To be pure in heart means also to be dispassionate, or to have returned to the state of Adam before he fell, to be transformed by the Energies of the Holy Spirit, to restore the image of God in man, and so become worthy once more of beholding creation and man in their true, origional goodness. Life within the Orthodox Church, in its fullness, is a lifelong struggle of repentance and prayer to aquire a pure heart.

So Orthodoxy promises to those people who accept her teaching and wish to adhere to it, nothing less than the fullfillment of the promises of Christ in a real and true sense, not only in the next life but also, to varying degrees, in this one.

Perhaps this is a bit heavy. Im not even sure of where you are coming from, what tradition you are currently a part of. I assume you are a Christian, and since you asked, I felt I should give you a decent answer to your question. It can be a bit much for some people though. Western Christian tradition are so different from the Orthodox way they seem to some people very strange and even very un-Christian! I hope I have said nothing that is not Orthodox and if I have, please people, correct me.

I have just realised that I failed to explain what is meant by passions. Passions are unatural movements of the soul that result in sin. In the west we hear about the seven deadly sins. In Orthodoxy, passions are seen as wounds of the soul that result in, and are maintained by, the practice of sin, sin being the mis-use of created things. Passions are the specific motions of the unatural state of the soul and are a habitual tendancy to sin.

There is more to all this, obviously, and the books you mentioned will be much more helpful and accurate than what I have tried to say. Its late and Im tired, but Ive started something by interacting with you Andrew and I want you to know that anything I say that seems helpful or good is from God, and anything that you dont like or seems confusing or wrong is from me.

[Andrew Latz]

Daniel,

Thank you so much. Another brilliantly helpful answer. I very much like that image of sin, as wounding, and the Christian life as being healed and thus more and more transformed into the image of Christ.

Could you explain how Adam was the link between God and creation? When you say the image of God was lost, do you mean completely? Likewise, do you mean that Adam lost all communion with God? So the Christian life is one of being recreated more and more into the image of Christ - is that what you're gettin at? Is that what you would call deification?

As for my context, I was brought up in low church evangelical churches, sometimes charismatic, but started theological college 2 years ago. since then i've obviously been questioning as many of my beliefs as possible and the more i find out about orthodoxy the more i like it. so really just trying to find out more, but not lightly.

in Christ,
andrew

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Jesus Prayer and Anger

The Jesus Prayer is different from the Prayer of the Heart. The one may be repeated, to some benefit, as I still do while driving. The other requires great concentration and purpose, and needs also a staretz as well as a heart on its way to perfection. Mine never has fit that bill, so the other requirements are moot.

Still, the simple Jesus Prayer helped enough with my own well developed sense of anger to allow me to survive the 50 or so miles to-and-from my teaching post at the University of Texas in Arlington, for a few additional years. But 'road rage' was (perhaps literally) invented for me. [I had a priest-client at one time, for whom I was designing a church; he claimed to have coined the term, so, he may really have had me in mind, since we spent a lot of time together; I was too embarrassed to ask.]

While the roads to Arlington are better off now without me, nevertheless we see more and more public displays of anger today. And more and more we hear of smothering a rising anger with the cloak of the Jesus Prayer. But the Fathers also speak of a determined means for withdrawing the sin of anger from others, in a variety of ways, by amending one's own actions which have been a cause of irritation. This is, I think, a necessary step beyond conquering one's own anger.

I still find that the best of these tracts on anger is that of Saint John of the Ladder, found most succinctly in Step (or Rung) Number 8: "On Placidity and Meekness". Here is a shortened list of symptoms which explain anger so well:

Freedom from anger is an endless wish for dishonor, whereas among the vainglorious there is a limitless thirst for praise.

Freedom from anger... is the ability to be impervious to insults, and comes by hard work and the sweat of one's brow.

1. The first step toward freedom from anger is to keep the lips silent when the heart is stirred;

2. The next, [is] to keep thoughts silent when the soul is upset;

3. The last, [is] to be totally calm when unclean winds are blowing.

Anger is an indication of concealed hatred, of grievance nursed.

Anger is the wish to harm someone who has provoked you.

Irascibility is an untimely flaring up of the heart.

Bitterness is a stirring of the soul's capacity for displeasure.

Anger is an easily changed movement of one's disposition, a disfigurement of the soul.

Just as darkness retreats before light, so all anger and bitterness disappears before the fragrance of humility.

When one has been as irascible as I am known to have been, take my word for it that "hard work and the sweat of one's brow" is only the beginning in a life-long effort to keep anger at bay. For example, there used to be a popular tale among the students, that at one time I got so mad that I threw a typewriter across the room. And while that was not true (in those days typewriters weighed about 50 lbs -- almost too heavy to lift, much less throw), it truthfully illustrates the fury for which I was known. (Lord, forgive my crimes of indulgence.)

Today, however, we see a more complex form of social anger. It is no longer simply the ancient problem of a bilious nature turned loose, but there are two extremes at work: There is on the one hand a far greater (and growing) number of incidents of violent release of anger with seemingly less inclination to control it (such as these infamous examples of road rage); and yet on the other hand, there is also the new age superficial niceness which is a leap to the other extreme: It refuses to accept anything as sin. It reduces 'turning the cheek' to an absurdity. The great irony is that both conditions are anathema, and there is little point in trying to guess which is worse.

Yet, perhaps the greater point of this confession is to spell out for myself how daily life 'in the world' is not to be thought of as an exception to the rules of ascetic life. While the release from life offered by the monastery helps immeasurably in the struggle, nevertheless, the same rules for perfection of the heart apply to all. That, it is more difficult to achieve the perfect heart in the world in no way should imply that such a struggle for perfection is not necessary, nor should it be presumed that we will not be held accountable for the degree of our struggle, in either case.

"Euloyetos ei, Kurie, didakson me ta dikaiomata sou."
[From the Evlogetaria of Orthros, chanted in Fifth Tone.]

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard McBride,

Thank you for your wonderful post. I am going to print it and put it up over my computer. Now and again all of us need to be reminded when we get out of hand and our pride has overwhelmed us. I thank you and others for your patience and long-suffering with me, and I especially thank "Monk Ivan" for given me a good shaking, which I most certainly needed. While my intentions are always the best, being weak and sinful, I get in my own way and several sobering things have happened to me lately, and I thank God for it.

Thank all of you again, and please pray for me.

Thank you.

In Christ,

Fr. A..

[Richard McBride]

How can that be, Blessed of the Lord Daniel?

I am YOUR student. You are carrying the Cross, and doing a fine job of allowing the Holy Spirit to speak through you.
Your struggle for Life allows the Lord to spread His Gospel abroad through you. But it is a dangerous responsibility.

I delight in the great love He has shown you -- and keeps showing through you. So, I know you do not mean that you "are contemplating your own good words", but rather, that you are in fascination at the Word being conducted through you.

This is a wonderful Grace, but always great trials are attached to its bestowal. After all, you must keep growing and learning to please God.
..................

O Lord! Thou knowest my own foolishness and my sins are not hidden from Thee. Forgive me all my foolish words, Lord.

[Richard Leigh]

Deaer Michael Rallis, regarding your post26:


"My question to you is this: is it better to study, observe, and have an intellectual understanding of undeluded right worship, or to experience, partake, taste, and gain the “knowledge by experience” spoken of in an earlier post?"
I'm sorry Michael but I think I answered that in the post you were referring to. I mean, I said I was doing them not "studying doing them."


"And another question: is there any assurance of escaping delusion and achieving right worship outside of living our life as a member of Christ’s body?"

No.

Richard

[Herman Blaydoe]

I think the key is, instead of knowing ABOUT God, we have to get to the place where we KNOW God. Instead of merely studying Him we must experience Him. We must get Him from our heads to our hearts. The Holy Prayer of Jesus is one way to assist us in doing that. It is part of the prescription of the spiritual hospital that is the Church, headed by the Divine Physician, to heal us of the sickness of sin.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

[Owen Jones]

Herman,

Yes, but...We are also careful in Orthodoxy to preserve the unknowability of God as a basic principle. The gnosis that the Christian acquires is not so much about God but about himself -- through obedience to the commandments. That is primarily why we pray, and not to achieve knowledge of God.

[Herman Blaydoe]

I can learn about a person by reading about that person, but I cannot KNOW that person without actually interacting with him/her. How well I know that person depends on how deeply we interact and how long. Even if I know a person very well for many years, there are still aspects of that person that I may never learn or understand. How much moreso with God. We can still stand in His Awesome Presence with fear and trembling, but never fully comprehend all that God is. We can KNOW God rather than merely know OF God, through encounter as well as through obedience. This is, as I understand it, the very essence of the hesychast experience.

[Anthony]

Could somebody kindly post the words of the Jesus prayer in Slavonic?

[Andreas Moran]

Господи Иисусе Христе Сыне Божий помилуй мя грешнаго (грешную).

[Nina]

News about the Jesus Prayer. (http://vatopaidi.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/can-seven-words%E2%80%94lord-jesus-christ-have-mercy-on-me%E2%80%94change-lives/)

[Brad D.]

Very interesting!

[Bryan J. Maloney]

Daniel, could you explain in detail the exlusivism (I use the term without meaning to be prejorative) in your statement? I'm aware that the Orthodox church sees itself as a continuation of the early church but wondered how that belief fared in the ecumenical movement and simply the vast amount of other churches in existence.

We are the Church, the sole Church, there are no "branches". The Orthodox Church is the Church. All others are schism or heresy. It's really that simple. It's not all pretty, kumbaya Christian, and politically correct, but it is the truth.

[David Naess]

I just thought that I would post about "The Jesus Prayer" under supervision...
I first started learning The Jesus Prayer while visiting monasteries when I prayed with novices and postulants.

My spiritual father is incorporating controlled breathing to regulate the speed.
I started with 10 prayers 3 times a day.
I am currently at 5 circuits on a 33 knot prayer rope per day:
33 in the morning, 66 in the afternoon and 66 at night
For me, one circuit takes about 20 minutes.
(I am a night person rather than a morning person so my focus is at it's lowest first thing in the morning.)
+10 "extended prayers" after my night prayer.

What I do is based on sensations experienced, ability to focus and insights acquired during the process.
The "extended prayers" are essentially slow it down until you experience a specific sensation again.
At this point I am encouraged to experiment.

Without direction one might very well just be rapidly repeating the Jesus Prayer as a mantra.

It is going to be a long slow process that will be directed as my spiritual development mandates.

It is a matter of documentation (mine is through journaling) and tweaking a bit here and a bit there in order to find what works best for you!

That's the sort of thing that requires spiritual direction!

[Cuthbert Rollings]

From Orthodox Blog by Fr Dcn. Charles Joiner

http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2011/06/is-continual-prayer-possible-for.html

Saint Gregory Palamas says,

Let no one think, my brother Christians, that it is the duty only of priests and monks to pray without ceasing, and not of laymen. No, no; it is the duty of all of us Christians to remain always in prayer.
How is it that we can remain always at prayer if we do not live a monastic life? Saint Gregory answers this in this way,
"How it is possible to pray without ceasing, namely by praying in the mind. And this we can always do if we so wish."
This is so true. No matter what we are doing physically we can pray in our mind. Of course there are certain activities like driving when we want to have our full attention on the task. But we can learn to have a prayer going on in our mind even when we are driving of course this is not for those beginning in prayer). After all, many have no problem talking on a cell phone or talking with another person while driving. Even when we are talking with another person we can still be praying in the mind. We have the capacity to hear more than one conversation at a time. So we surely can have a prayer in our mind and hear others speaking. All of us have the potential to pray continually and this does not require us to stop all our activities to do so.


Saint Gregory says,
Let us work with the body and pray with the soul. Let our outer man perform his bodily tasks, and let the inner man be entirely dedicated to the service of God, never abandoning this spiritual practice of mental prayer, as Jesus, God and Man, commanded us...
Now getting to this stage where we can pray continually in our mind is not easy and takes a lot of work.


Saint Gregory advises.
At first it may appear very difficult to you, but be assured, as it were from Almighty God, that this very name of our Lord Jesus Christ, constantly invoked by you, will help you to overcome all difficulties, and in the course of time you will become used to this practice and will taste how sweet is the name of the Lord. Then you will learn by experience that this practice is not impossible and not difficult, but both possible and easy. This is why St. Paul, who knew better than we the great good which such prayer would bring, commanded us to pray without ceasing. He would not have imposed this obligation upon us if it were extremely difficult and impossible, for he knew beforehand that in such case, having no possibility of fulfilling it, we would inevitably prove to be disobedient and would transgress his commandment, thus incurring blame and condemnation. The Apostle could have had no such intention.