What is the purpose of prayer?

[sinjin smithe]

Why do we pray to God? What is the purpose of prayer? I have asked this question to many, yet I have never received a good answer. I mean God is the giver of all things, and He knows what we need, so why petition Him?

[Rebecca]

Quote from Beginning to Pray by Anthony Bloom:

"First of all, it is very important to remember that prayer is an encounter and a relationship, a relationship which is deep, and this relationship cannot be forced either on us or on God. The fact that God can make Himself present or can leave us with the sense of His absence is part of this live and real relationship."

[Richard McBride]

Dear Blessed in the Lord, Rebecca

I appreciate all of your responses to these issues on the list. It is interesting how the Paraclete urges one or another to respond to certain issues; often He will not sit still in His urging, even when we hesitate.

Bless the Lord for His continuing love; for the urgings He spreads over the children.

But this is not to say that the enemy is not at work also.

“The good guides lead [man] toward God and the kingdom of heaven, the evil guides toward the devil and agelong punishment. But nothing and no one is to blame for his destruction except [one’s] own free will... Not even the devil can destroy a man, compelling him to choose wrongly, or reducing him to impotence or enforced ignorance, or anything else: [the devil] can only suggest evil to [man].”
Saint Peter of Damaskos; The Philokalia; vol. III; p.80

Also, I thank Father Averky for responding so faithfully to the urgings of the Paraclete.
I pray for the return to health of Thy servant, Averky Hieromonk; cleanse him body and soul and restore him to full strength and vigour in his service unto Thee.
Amen

[Fr Averky]

Dear Ones in Christ,

I thank you for your kind words and concern for my unworthiness. I had to go to the hospital to receive two pints of blood. I have a great deal of bodily pain, and sleep very little. My physician gave me two medications to sleep, one of which is a controlled substance, while the other is quite strong. Inadvertantly, she gave me a third medication for pain, which was similar in chemical make-up to the second of the other two, basically giving me anh over dose. A week and a half ago, I lost the use of my legs, they were like rubber, or jello, and I could not stand or walk. It was very frightening. I saw several doctors and the "specialist" told me that I most likely would never walk well again. I did not believe one word of what he said. I myself asked for the transfusions, took myself off of one of the pills, and, Glory be to God, I started walking as usual!

Fr. A

[sinjin smithe]

"First of all, it is very important to remember that prayer is an encounter and a relationship, a relationship which is deep, and this relationship cannot be forced either on us or on God. The fact that God can make Himself present or can leave us with the sense of His absence is part of this live and real relationship."

Okay Rebecca, thank you for posting. But that does not get to the bottom of the questions I have asked. So it is a relationship, what is the purpose of it? Why do it? People ask God for things that they never get. Why does God do this? And if God has our best interests in my mind, why bother petitioning him?

[Rebecca]

Hi Sinjin,

True story: Someone once said that in a time of intense suffering in her life, during the Holy Thursday Evening service of Holy Week, she cried out to God silently, yet vehemently, in her heart saying "Help me!" but the suffering stayed. She silently asked more and more vehemently for His help, but the suffering did not go away.

Finally, this person "prayed" silently in her heart saying "I don't understand why You won't help me!!!!!"

She said she heard, silently, in her heart the following answer:

"I already am".

The person said suffering stayed, but it was not as important because she knew that God was helping her, it's just that she couldn't see it.

She concluded that her own perspective was off, and stopped worrying that God had abandoned her. That gave her courage, she said, to face the suffering with hope.

As for your specific questions...

I am not good at discussing these things myself, and am beginner in knowing about prayer...that's why my posts are mostly quotes from people who really know things...but the following is something that struck me when I heard it and I think it is relevant.

Fr. Thomas Hopko, in a taped lecture I heard, spoke of a conversation he'd had with a woman who, as I recall, had been sitting on a pew in Church one day. To the best of my memory: during the course of their conversation he asked her if she loved God. She said "I don't know". He asked her if she wanted to love God. She said "I don't know." He asked her if she would want to want to love God. She thought about it a little while, and then said, "Yes, I think I would."

He said that a year later he met her again, and she had become Orthodox, and a nun as well. He pointed to her honesty and how she wanted to have the desire to love God, and that had been all that it took.

Finally, there is a passage in one of the Spiritual Homilies of St. Macarius the Great where he talks about how a mother, wishing her infant to bond with her and become attached and grow in love for her, will sometimes hide her face from the infant, so that the infant will long for the mother. He goes on to say that we should not be surprised that God would do the same.

[Fr Averky]

sinjin, but I just saw your new posting. People who pray to God and ask Him for something and think that they never get an answer, or get what they wanted are wrong. God hears all prayers, and "No," is an answer, so is "Wait," and, so is, If I gave you what you aked for, the consequences might be quite awful" Or again, " Not now, for I have something even better, If you believe and trust in Me." There is an ancient Chinese curse which says "May you get what you have desired." Throughout all of history men have plotted, murdered, politicked, cheated, lied, double dealed, betrayed their friends and families,squandered great fortunes, all trying to gain power,prestige, a crown, only to get it and have ruinous and disastrous results. In a sense sinjin, it is really not "proper,' so to speak to ask God for that new car or a better TV, and so on. I know nothing about you, if you have a religious background or not, but your cynical responses rather worries me. When you ask a question, and someone sincerely gives you an answer, and a good one, you then beg the question. No one can really convince you of the efficacy of prayer - you yourself have to - first, believe that there is a God, and, second, to believe that He truly loves you. If you do not really hold these two simple facts to be true, then it is not possible to discuss prayer with you - you will never receive an answer that will satisfy you. Each of us has to seek God in His own way, and God will react accordingly. Are we modern day Areapogites or Cynics, that we have to have "proof" that God hears our prayers, or really cares - or proof that He even exists at all? Let us be, rather like the man whose son was possesed by a demon , who first threw him into the fire, and then into the water. When Jesus Christ showed mercy, and healed the boy, the man cried out, "Oh Lord I believe. Heal Thou my disbelief." Frankly, I think it a bit much that you pose a question, and a good woman gives you a simple and rather beautiful answer, and you demand more, scoffing at her. If you don't believe that it is worth your time to believe in God and pray to Him, it is your freedom to inflict that upon yourself, but to be so rude to a person who answered you sincerely is really out of line. I have only been a member a short time, but I consider this community to be giving people who love and fear God the opportunity to share thoughts, pose and answer questions, in a sincere Christian manner. You, sinjin, have to ask yourself why you have so little faith, so many doubts, and - fears. It is not for other people to suffer at your hands because they do not give you the answer you desire, and what is more, with proof, especially since they don't know you, your back ground, what you have gone through in life or your religious beliefs. Yours is a very personal question, about your life, and your own personal relationship to God. If you don't think that it is important to talk to God, or as you seem to want to limit the relationship with Him by saying why should we be bother to be "petitioning Him if He already has our best interests in mind," then if that is your perception, be content. YOU are the one who has to get to the bottom of the questions you have asked. Ask such questions only if you have a deep desire to know God, to Love Him, and know and accept that He loves you, for He Himself will reveal it to you in one way or another, not just to continue to argue or be skeptical. THAT, is not pleasing to God. If you think that praying to God is a senseless bother, that is fine, but on the other hand, one cannot expect an "answer upon demand!" This is most unbecoming indeed! My answer to you is, why don't you ask God, or is it not worth the bother? God help you, sinjin, God help you!

Hieromonk A.

[Fr Averky]

correction to my posting:

sedond line should read; "or did not get what they wanted are wrong.

Forgive me, sinjin, I am very sorry for being so sharp with you - I have great concern for you, and pray for you. May God grant you the answer to your qestion - it is a very important one. Try to be of a better disposition, try to believe. If I can help you in any way, any way at all, just ask, and I will do my very best. You are welcome to mail me personally, and we can talk privately, as it were. We all have had these doubts at one time or another, especially in these days of falling away. If only we had the fervour of the Muslims, their dedication, their zeal, and their unity. Christians struggle to believe, and few would die for Christ as Muslims do for Allah. As I told you, you are created in God's image, and it is a marvelous thing. You are of great value to God, you are his son, and an heir to His kingdom I desire one thing for you, sinjin, and that is that you will come to know God, and that you will be with Him forever. Again I ask your forgiveness, you frustrate me at times, that is all.

Love,
Father A.

[Thomas Garland]

Sinjin has asked why we should have a relationship with God and what is the purpose of such a relationship. Surely one might ask what is the point of any relationship?

Our human relationships - with friends, family, spouse, workmates, etc - do not depend on our asking them for things. We seem to have a need to relate to others. Come to tnat, this extends to relationships with animals and even inanimate things such as favourite books or other possessions, or a favourite place on Earth.

If our relationship with another person depended on whatever they could give us or what we could give them, this would not be love but a return, a payment, for favours granted.

One of the main reasons I was attracted to Orthodoxy was the fact that Orthodoxy seemed to focus very strongly on our relationship with God and not on prayer as a catalogue of wish-list items, however altruistic.

I recently heard a story of Metropolitan Antony Bloom, in which a woman came to him saying that she found it very difficult to pray and to know that God was hearing. Met Antony asked her what she most liked doing - "Knitting" was the answer. "So sit in front of your ikons and knit" replied Fr Antony. And in due course the woman came back to say she was starting to hear God speak to her.

Sometimes relationships are about just being with the person we love!

Hope this is useful!

with love,

Thomas

[Owen Jones]

Dear Thomas, et al,

Why pray? I see two reasons. First, because most people throughout the ages have prayed and if it's good enough for them.... Second, because we are commanded to do so. I fear the relationship argument is the weakest for me. It seems to reflect the modernist tendency to psychologize the Holy Trinity and theology in general. I even heard a very lengthy involved talk by Bishop Kallistos Ware on the Trinity in which I thought he had entirely psychologized by turning the Trinity into a set of psychological perspectives. And, of course, if one rejects the idea of communion with God, what has one got left over but a psychological relationship?

I think we have to get over a fundamentally self-centered view of things. The question posed seems to be predicated on a prior one -- what will prayer do for me? Or, why should I pray if I don't know for certain in advance that the results will be worthwhile?

That misses the point. While the benefits to those who pray are often testified to, they only know this in hindsight. So the right motive for entering into prayer is to be obedient. We are foolish to wait around for a personal telegram to arrive from God telling each of us individually that we ought to pray. We have the weight of human tradition on our side. Most people throughout the ages have prayed. They can't all be wrong. And it is God working through people that reveal to us his will for each of us individually. That's what we call tradition. Now, if we turn tradition into something that is purely formalistic and mechanical, that too is wrong. But what have a word for that as well -- phariseeism. So it seems to me that instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, we ought to go about our business, which is to pray.

[Rebecca]

Thomas,

Thank you for your very beautiful post.

Best Regards..

[sinjin smithe]

Perhaps I should have never asked those questions in the first place. I regret doing so. I guess this is not the place for those struggle to believe. I guess Orthodoxy is not the place to pose such questions. I guess it is better to just shut up and believe. Perhaps Orthodoxy is not the place for those who struggle in their faith or for those who have done the things I have done. I don't think I will post here anymore. This board is not made for those who struggle with the basic questions of faith. This board is for the intelletuals who are interested in higher theological discussions. That is my conclusion. Again, I am sorry to bother and offend everyone for daring to ask such a question.

Thomas and Rebecca, I would like to thank you for your thoughful posts. Sometimes it amazes me that I learn the most(and the most thoughtful words also) from fellow laymen and not those who are members of the clergy.

[Thomas Garland]

Thanks, Rebecca. Apologies to all for any typos or misunderstandings of what has been posted, as both my pairs of glasses are broken!

But I'm afraid I really must disagree most strongly with Owen here. Surely praying simply because we are commanded to do so is blatant pharisaism!

Clearly, because of Man's weakness, rules and commandments are useful to 'get us in the habit' of acting in a way pleasing to God. We often need to do things by rote until they are internalised sufficently in order to come genuinely from the heart. But we can - and frequemtly do - turn rules into idols, as it saves a lot of effort on our part to follow what someone else tells us to do. Isn't this what Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor was on about? In fact, we are not slaves but free men and must take responsibility for our relationship with God.

Surely the New Covenant supersedes the Old by replacing a rule-bound approach to God with one based on the quality of our relationship with Him? This is not 'psychologising'- it merely (!) shifts the focus from living a good life in order to attain salvation, in accordance with externally imposed constraints, to developing our relationship with God, which is the prime purpose of our existence. If our relationship with God is not good, then it doesn't matter how many rules we keep.

Of course, one can sentimentalise relationship - both with humans and with God - but that doesn't mean that we must throw out the whole notion of relationship. There can be perfectly good, unsentimental relationships. No wonder Sinjin is feeling confused - and perhaps somewhat cynical - about the purpose of prayer!

As far as I myself am concerned, since God exists I want to be with Him. OK, in my sinfulness, I very often deliberately avoid being with Him - and one of my avoidance strategies is to 'pray'! But I am always drawn back in some small and inadequate way. There is nothing else - what can I do ultimately but be with God?

with love,

Thomas

[Owen Jones]

Surely God has placed in us a desire (eros) to be in a state of unity with Him. But we fulfill this desire through obedience. And it goes without saying that God has promised us many spiritual riches if we are obedient to him. But I stand by my statement that it still requires obedience. That's the key. Obedience is not simply following rules and regulations. It is a spirit, an inner disposition that we must acquire. I would think Phariseeism is more along the lines of trying to bribe God through our religious formalism, as well as putting down others who do not rigidly conform to such formalism. It implies that we have turned faith into a burden rather than something that makes us free.

But if you examine patristic writings, but particularly those writings that seem to captivate many Orthodox converts these days -- the desert fathers -- even the most esoteric of their writings are all grounded in the principle of obedience.

The idea of struggle, or questioning, is not inconsistent with this principle of obedience. Christian obedience is not the same as Nazi obedience, blindly goostepping along. And I think this is the thing that is so difficult throughout Christian and religious history to keep in balance. A kind of blind zealotry or undisciplined obedience that is spiritually unbalanced has often led to terrible things. But that does not in the least refute the fact that it is obedience to God that lies at the core of our faith. The real question is -- what kind of God are we obedient to? No simple slogan can answer that question. But that inquiry leads us to the right kind of obedience.

[Thomas Garland]

Dear Sinjin,

I took so long over shortsightedly writing my last post that I see it's crossed with yours!

I don't think your question was inappropriate at all - indeed, I feel most thinking Christians must have asked themselves some question of the sort at some time. Perhaps it was just the way you seemed a little impatient at not having a direct answer to your question!

But there is at least a partial answer to your question in all the posts - try and consider what everyone has to say and see if you can find something useful.

The trouble with message boards, and e-mail generally, is that we all tend to write straight off, reacting to what has just jumped out at us from a previous post! I've come across far crueller, if not downright spiteful, remarks in alt.christian.east-orthodox!

with love,

Thomas

[dianne marie debs]

Dear Sinjin,
God willing you will read this.
All Christians struggle with their faith, and whoever says that they don't! ... my answer is then,"is sin in your life?" We are human... unfortunately.

I think the major question here behind yours is " Do we believe in God?". Once we ask that question ,then we have given His Presence importance. If the answer is yes.....then what is your relationship with Him?

Think of God as your Father and you, His child. Then you will realize that this relationship is devine and you can communicate with your Father through prayer. Our greatest teacher was Jesus.
He prayed to the Father and He taught us how to pray.

My advice; lock yourself in your room and try to pray and try, again and again. Eventually, The guidance will come from Our Lord and your questions will be answered.

Another help can be found in your parish...but if the parish priest leaves you short go to another. Be diligent to find the answer. I believe prayer is different for everyone. The reasons I prayer may be different than yours.......but in the end it all boils down to the fact that if you believe that God is alive, then the next step is to work on your relationship with Him. Read the Scriptures and the Holy Fathers, through The Lord's Grace and His Fatherly Love you will find the answer.

If you have been offended by the previous posts,,,
please find forgiveness in your heart... We are all humans and each one of us rise and fall constantly on the path of salvation.

I will pray for you
Humbly,Dianne

[Lawrence]

There is a beautiful metaphor of a mother and a suckling child. I believe it comes from St Symeon the New Theologion. Honestly, I'm not sure though. God is the mother and we are the child. So long as we follow the rules of proper nursing we can remain at our mother's bosom. But when we don't follow the rules, we are pulled away and begin to wail. This is prayer. When we are rejoined to our mother we are gladdened. This is prayer.

We pray because we want to be in communion with God. And when we are in communion with God we are praying. Of course God knows what we need, but do we? Not entirely and especially not when we act autonomously. When we act autonomously is when we must remind ourselves that God is the giver all and can do all things. Our prayers remind us of this through the Grace of the Holy Spirit of the Glory of God.

In Christ, Lawrence

[Owen Jones]

All good things come from above, and so prayer is a gift given us from God, along with the desire to pray, the power to pray. But we resist accepting a gift that is freely offered. We want to know what the deal is. What is it going to cost me? And so we fight against it. That, I think, is when the obedience comes in. We pray because God has instructed us to pray, knowing better than we do that it is right and good and necessary for us. I think of the icon of the Trinity known as hospitality. Prayer is God's hospitality to mankind. It offers us entry into his house and allows us to share in His food without any conditions, just as Abraham entertained strangers. But why did he offer his hospitality. Because it was his custom. It was his tradition passed on from his elders. It was part of the culture. So we pray because others before us have prayed.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi. This is Effie from Greece.

I was off-line for a short while but decided to join again because of the war in Iraq.

I’ve been reading the messages about the meaning of prayer and would like to add my own personal experience.

I think that just reading and reciting the words of the Orthodox prayers for morning and night, adding special ones that are relevant to you and even singing hymns or psalms is a vital part of our quest for a closer relationship to God.

Jesus asked us to Knock, and he would answer – We have to do the knocking. We are the ones who have to ask that the door be opened and prayer is the way we do it. There are many different methods of praying – being silent in his presence (like the woman knitting in front of her icons) is just another one of these. A few years ago I read a book about the Oxford Group in England. As part of their religious exercises they were required to have a quiet time every morning. They would sit down with a pencil and a blank sheet of paper and just let any random thought come to them and then write it down. If the same thought came continuously and persistently they would assume that it was important and act on it. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t – the method seems to be somewhat similar to that used in remote viewing. I’ve never tried it but as a spiritual exercise it has apparently worked for many people. No-one has ever really been able to explain exactly what our sub-conscious is and it’s role in our lives but some practical methods seem to have good results.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within us – couldn’t prayer and the quiet times we spend with God be the gateway that allows us entrance into that kingdom? Not praying because we consider that God will do what is best for us anyway is like saying that we have no mind of our own. If God had wanted mindless slaves we would not have come into existence.

Another very important aspect of praying is the liturgy on Sunday – understanding each part of it and being able to participate is a special blessing that continues to influence the rest of the week for me. If more people gave praise to God for their blessings and asked forgiveness for their sins I don’t think psychiatrists would be needed so much.

Prayer is not only important, it is absolutely necessary for those who honestly seek to live as God intended them to.

Effie

[George Hawkins]

Quote "People ask God for things they never get..."
No is still an answer from God, who knows better than we do what are our true needs.

[George Hawkins]

After posting, I realised (as someone further down the track rightly pointed out), that I should have read all the postings that came after what I replied to, rather than just jumping in, adding nothing new, in fact just saying what had been said before. My apologies.
George

[Pavlos]

Hello all,

I lurk here all the time but never post because I generally do not feel I have anything of consequence to offer; however, prayer is something I feel very strongly about.

Why do I pray?

I find the prayers that are most meaningful to me are when I am praying slowly, outloud, taking time to think about what I am saying and asking of God. For me, prayer is often an out loud admission of my failings and short comings as a Christian. I find myself prostrate alot in front of my icon of Christ, tearfully asking to be kept in Grace and set upon the narrow track, even in my sinful and broken state.

It is extremely powerful and yet helpful for me to verbalize aloud the things I feel upset or angry or joyous over. I know the Lord is listening and already knows what is written in my heart but for me, a sinful man, it is a detoxification process to admit these things out loud, to ask God for forgiveness and to reaffirm aloud my desire to be kept from sin.

I pray for myself, to admit and repent. I pray for those I love and those I have trouble loving. I pray for those who are in need and those of blessed memory. I know God listens and when I pray aloud, I listen also and sometimes I really hear what I am saying or asking and realise that even in prayer I am serving myself rather than serving God. For me prayer is an essential part of my life. God hears my prayers and sometimes when I hear them also, I understand myself better.

God keep you all
-Nyte

[Fr Averky]

Owen Jones says "we pray because we are commanded to do so." Owen, I have my cell-rule, which my spiritual father gave me many years ago, and when someone needs an anchor to keep them during the day and evening,I will suggest a rather simple number of prayers for them to say, but I don't really know that I felt that I had ever been "commanded" to pray. I pray because I love God, and I take great comfort from speaking to Him in a personal way. To pray by command seems to have an element of fear, or praying because we have been ordered to do so. Certainly, obedience is important in the life of Orthodox Christians, and all Christians should say the daily prayers of the Church, and prayer is said according to one's strength, or needs, and should always be prompted by love. As a small child, my mother taught me to love the Mother of God, and so many times in my life she has comforted me and saved me from despair. When I pray to her, I come to her as a child would to his mother when he is hurt or sad or lonely. She is the Mother to all of us, and the Mother of the Church. I thank my Guardian Angel for keeping me safe, for I know that I have been saved by mere seconds when driving along roads where deer jump out all of a sudden, and there is almost no time to react. And I know for sure, that many a time when I was just about to say something that could be hurtful, or start a fire storm, I had could sense that my Guardian Angel had placed his hand over my mouth just in time. When I pray to my Patron Saint, I take comfort in that I have someone in Heaven who prays for me before the Throne of God, and watches over me and protetect me, and whose life I should emulate. I want to pray, and I love to pray. I now spend a few minutes in the morning praying for the all members of this community, for we all can see that each of us has his own sorrows, fears, and doubts, and having received such lovely words of comfort and the assurance of prayers from so many of you, makes my life easier to bear. As my life comes closer and closer to the end, I look back to the many times God showed me mercy, covered my sins, sent me his Grace at times when I was in darknesss, has forgiven me my countless sins, and I know in the depths of my heart that He truly loves me. How many time have people risen up against me, slandering and vivifying me, and at some crucial moment, He preserved me, setting me free. How could I not to pray to Him and thank Him for His being at my side, sheilding me from evil and then granting me more blessings than I ever have deserved? He has done wondrous things fo me - He is everything to me. Please forgive me Owen, for I do not understand your words; I must say that I always find something interesting in your posts - from them I am able to look at many things in a way I never considered, and for that, I am grateful. You are ever in my prayers.

In Christ,
ather A.

[George Hawkins]

St John Chrysostom writes in his 49th Homily on Genesis, about Isaac praying that his wife Rebecca might have a child: " 'Isaac made supplication for his wife Rebecca' the text says remember, 'because she was barren, and God heard him.' Don't think, because it is written straight afterwards, that he immediately attained the object of his desire. In fact he spent twenty years praying and beseeching God, and only then he attained his wish...The text says, remember 'Isaac was 40 years when he took Rebecca, the daughter of Bathouel the Syrian.' You gained a precise knowledge of his age. Then after saying 'Isaac made supplication for his wife because she was barren,' for us to learn the number of years it indicates how old Isaac was when children were born to him by Rebecca. 'Now Isaac was 60,' the text says, ' when Rebecca bore them.' So if he was 40 when he married her and 60 when she gave birth, it follows that he kept beseeching God for twenty years and thus awoke the sterility of Rebecca's womb to childbearing."
Twenty years. I think, living as we do in a society that expects and demands instant gratification, it is hard for us to comprehend such faith and prayer. Yet scripture holds this to us as an example, as too the parable of the woman who persistantly petitioned the Judge. Good things come to those who wait and are patient. We need to keep praying always, even if it seems that our desires are not being fulfilled (according to our own timetables!)

[Fr Averky]

Thamas Garland,

I was reading this page, and read your post of Sunday, March 30, with special attention. Thank you, Thomas, for your thought is beautifully expressed, and very much touched my heart.

Our Holy Orthodox Faith is so beautiful, for it lives and grows in the hearts of the Faithful, who themselves constantly learn, come to new understanding, seeing their lives and souls being transformed by not only God's grace and mercy, but by being patient and humble in the face of sorrows.

You taught me something, Thomas, and for that I am grateful God bless you!

Hieromonk Averky

[Thomas Garland]

Dear Fr Averky,

I'm not sure how I could have deserved such kind words, but I thank you and can assure you that I, on the other hand, greatly look forward to your posts, as they invariably give me much to learn from! You are of course in my prayers and I trust that your health problems are improving.

Quite by chance, I am just re-reading the life of St Silouan the Athonite by Fr Sophrony of blessed memory (a wonderful spiritual writer in his own right). A short while ago I read these words that are perhaps germane to the preceding discussion on prayer:

Indeed, prayer is often wordless, the mind in an act of intuitive synthesis being aware of everything simultaneously. During such times the soul hovers on that brink where a man may at any moment lose all sense of the world and of the body, where the mind ceases to think in separate concepts, and where the spirit will be sensible only of God. At such a moment a man forgets the world. His supplications die away, and in rapt silence he simply dwells in God.

Clearly, this is a description of the sort of prayer that is achieved only by the greatest ascetics, who have usually laboured many years with 'rote' prayers - if only I could even say my ordinary prayers with a little attention for once! But it also illustrates the highest level of 'prayer as relationship' that we were discussing earlier.

with love,

Thomas

(PS Fr A - are you the Fr Averky whose photos appear on the website of the RO parish in Hawaii?)

[Moses Anthony]

Hello Sinjin, Owen, Rev. Hieromonk A., ...

I perused the archives on this thread, and the above posts.

Why pray; obedience to a command, relationship/ communion, to express your heart to God.

Even in reading the archives I did not pick up on this one aspect of prayer; We pray to get God's perspective on the things which concern us. Also; we pray because of our love for God The Father, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the Most Holy Spirit.

Two Protestants wrote in a book that "whenever God speaks to us, it's his invitation for us to join Him where He is". Paul wrote the Church in Hebrews that "He always lives to make intercesson for them". The them, are those who draw near to God. It's a joy to Our Lord to pray for us, and so to join Him where He's at, to pray would become for us as well, a joy.

Jesus said, "Reach here your finger, and see MY hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving but believe." So, is Orthodoxy a place to express that you have doubts in your faith, YES! However; on our journey to deification we touch the Savior, and find that prayer is from obedience, borne out of love and a desire for a more intimate communion, that through prayer our eyes are cleared to see as God sees, to see truth. Prayer is all these things and so much more; but, if you really want the real skinny on why we pray, go to the source!

Forgive me for rambling on so, maybe I should run silent a while longer.

an unworthy servant

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Christ is Risen!
James,

So much has been written about prayer and why, types of prayer. Prayer is such a personal thing, intimate, relationship between you and your maker. As I said,it is personal, we all look at it differently. For me it is the way a child loves his parent. The way I would approach my father, with love. Just to be in the presence of my father. No need to talk, just being there is enough for me. A child looks up at his father and says to himself or others " thats my father" Words are not always needed, but like a child we sometimes need to ask, to thank and so on. Christ taught his Apostles how to pray, a simple prayer that we use as a guide for prayer. All that Our Heavenly Father wants from us is LOVE. He is a God of Love.

Keep it simple.
Br Paul

[Owen Jones]

I suspect that prayer, when conducted in the right spirit, changes brain waves and body chemistry for the better. Makes us more healthy, mentally and physically, through purity of mind. If we are attentive, prayer will also reveal our sins to ourselves that we were not aware of before, and this is a great gift from God. Our evil thoughts and intentions will try to crowd out our prayer.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Owen wrote : I suspect that prayer, when conducted in the right spirit, changes brain waves and body chemistry for the better. "

Owen, I read an article a while back about scientific studies that were conducted on the human brain using some kind of dye or something. The subjects in the experiment didn't belong to any one religion - Catholic nuns and monks, Buddhists etc. took part in the experiments that lasted for years, if I remember correctly. I've filed the article somewhere and when I find it I can either post it here or send it to you by e-mail.

The scientific study found that brain waves did indeed alter when people prayed or meditated and that this "apparatus" in our brains is something that we are born with. It's like a window that needs intense prayer to open. The whole article was really fascinating. The results have, of course, been thoroughly denounced by both sides - i.e. those who believe in God and those who don't. I'll try to find the article if you're interested.

Effie