Various tidbits and thoughts on fasting [Archive] - Monachos.net Discussion Community

Chuck S.

25-06-2003, 04:52 AM

Ok, this is my first question, of I'm sure many. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Now, I already know there is a debate about fasting from oils in the Church, and I'm not really trying to start a debate, I'm just interested in what the Church says and why.

First, I know we're supposed to fast from olive oil. Some say its ok to continue to use corn oils and peanut oils. But I'm not really sure...it kind of seems to defeat the purpose. OTH why would we fast from say corn oil, since it is a vegetable product?

Second, what about sutff like Crisco? This is vegetable shortening, and not oil. I've been fasting (on non oil days) from all of these things. But I see "some" lenten recipes call from them. Especially Crisco. So is shortening ok, even though it can be used once melted as an oil?

Third, are there any websites you can point me too with fasting recipes? I've basically been living on rice, bread, and some vegetables. (like green beans, and corn, plus some fruit like apples, grapefruit etc) Which is working out so far, for me..but it will get harder on the longer fasts. (basically I have..well nothing for breakfast unless I have grapefruit, and then for dinner I'll have either soup and bread, or rice and a vegetable (green beans or corn)...

I have a North American taste for food...and grew up (and still eat) mainly southern and or country style dishes.

Ok I know thats actually like 3 questions..but they all fit in together...http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks for your advice in advance!

In Christ, Thomas

Br Paul

25-06-2003, 06:26 AM

Thomas,
You might like to look at
http:// www.vegsource.com/lenten.htm (http://www.vegsource.com/lenten.htm)

Effie Ganatsios

25-06-2003, 07:03 AM

Thomas, you are going to have to have some variety in your diet, otherwise you are going to get very bored and might be tempted to eat what you shouldn't.

Greek cooking is mainly vegetarian anyway and on days without oil (although we're not that strict with olive oil - we only abstain during the Great Fast at Easter) we simply cook the meal without olive oil. Olive oil is added 10 mins before the end of the cooking time anyway so it's quite easy to omit it.

There are lots of recipes on the Internet and if you get a cookery book with Spanish, Mexican or Greek recipes, your meals will be delicious, healthy and anything but boring.

Fasting is not done for health reasons of course, but eating lots of raw vegetables and different kinds of fruit can only benefit you.

A sample diet :

Breakfast : a glass of fresh fruit juice, a slice of wholemeal toast (without butter) some home-made marmalade or jam (US jelly) or some pure honey.

Lunch : a large salad with anything that is in season - lettuce, tomatoes, cucumbers, radishes, onions, beetroot, cauliflower, etc. I usually made a dressing with olive oil, lemon or vinegar, salt, pepper and crushed garlic (you can omit the olive oil when you're fasting).

a stewed vegetable dish e.g. spinach, brown rice, onion, tomato (this is a Greek dish and delicious - it's called Spanakoriso).

or a fish dish - there are many wonderful recipes that don't use olive oil - fish is one of the staple foods when fasting

A piece of fruit

dinner : A large salad (perhaps one with various steamed greens i.e. endives) these are delicious with a dressing of olive oil and lemon

A slice of wholemeal bread

If anything is leftover from the midday vegetable dish you can have some of this.

You have to be careful when fasting to eat properly. Some protein (fish,lentils, beans etc- beans are very versatile - delicious bean soup is a meal in itself with beans and vegetables in it, beans can also be the base for a good wholesome and filling salad),
lots of vegetables, some fruit, and wholemeal bread. Nuts are nutricious - as long as you don't eat the whole packet. Almonds and walnuts are very good for you. Red wine is also good for you and is allowed on most days.

It's just a matter of getting used to another way of eating. Our bodies don't need all the meat and animal products that some people stuff themselves with.. and we certainly don't need anything that comes out of a packet. You can't be sure that animal products haven't been used for anything that has been processed so it's best to cook your food yourself using only pure ingredients.

Hope I've been helpful.

Effie

George Hawkins

25-06-2003, 07:12 AM

Dear in Christ, Thomas,

It would be a good idea to get a Vegan cookbook, which will have a lot of recipes perfect for Orthodox fasting that are nutritious.

In some recipes where oil is used as a heating medium (or what you cook the food in as opposed to it being an ingrediant in the food), you can substitute with water.

I have heard that the reason why we don't use olive oil is that in previous times it used to be stored in animal stomachs (or some other organ), but I don't know if that is true or not.

It can be very difficult to avoid oil - things such as commercially made bread contain oil after all, though you can make bread without it if need be.

George

Fr Averky

25-06-2003, 08:29 AM

Dear All,

There are several very good cook books put out that are especially for fasting periods. Strictly speaking, the Great Lent is very strict, for meat, fish, olive oil and milk and dairy products are not to be eaten, with the exception of Saturdays and Sundays, when wine and oil are permitted. While even fish is not permitted during great Great Lent except on the Annunciation, sea food is always allowed; shrimp, clams, octopus, scallops, lobster and crab all can be prepared in a variety of healthy dishes.

For some reason, people who will starve themselves nearly to death, will work out at a gym or run for miles in order to "look"good, wanting to lose weight and keep in "shape," nearly faint at the idea of fasting. St. John of Kronstadt says it is pyschological, giving as an example that people put in prison and told that they would be given only bread and water, died in a very short time from stress and despair, while on the other hand, holy people were known to live on only holy water and prosphora.

Thomas, Effie is right, you need not starve yourself -there are so many good foods which
are high in protein and which contain needed vitamins and minerals. The Russian Church also allows food to be cooked in vegetable oil
during lents. Oriental food is made up of a lot of fasting foods, and it can be quite delicious. This is true also of Thai and Vietnamese. cuisine. A wonderful Greek woman I know in Toronto prepares a delicious Stefado made with octopus and pearl onions with a sauce that makes it taste like Beef Brugundy. Arab Christians say that they know how to "Feast and to Fast." They eat humous, made from chickpeas, felafel, which can be eaten in pita bread, and a whole variety of good fasting foods. The Greeks have a wonderful and wholesime cuisine, and many dishes are fasting

In the end, we all have to do the very best we
can, not granting ourselves a personal "economia" because we don't really feel like fasting. Much is to be gained by fasting if we do it in the spirit of love for our Saviour.

I will try to find some places where you can buy fasting cook books.

In giving the rules for fasting, I am giving the traditional rules. People might want to disagree, but these are the rules -how a person adapts them to his own life is his business: The rules are relaxed for the very young, the very old, and the very sick. If for some reason, a person simply cannot fast strictly, he should talk to his priest about it; most priests are very understanding. I heard from somebody that their bishop in this country told his group of people that they only had to fast on Wednesday and Friday during Great Lent, and it is sad when the bishop, rather than urging his people to make a spiritual and bodily sacrifice, himself tells them that they can be far less strict. Woe to all of us when we are not urged by our archpastors to struggle, but to "take it easy," for we live in different times now. Yes we do, and they are worse and will get worse, and we are not strengthening ourselves for the dark days to come by wanting to have an easy Christian life.

Fr. A.

John Wilson

25-06-2003, 12:14 PM

If I may, I would like to add my own personal observations regarding fasting. As a number have people have stated there is a wide range of delicious recipes from all over the world which meet the requirements of "fasting" food. And therein lies the problem. They are delicious! Often times I feel more like I am feasting than fasting and it seems to me that from the outset it defeats the purpose of fasting, that of training ourselves in discipline so that we might better resist giving in to our passions.

I know we do not fast to make ourselves miserable, so for most of us bread and water with a bit of salt is a bit too much, but surely there needs to be a bit of ascetism involved. Perhaps the key is to eat less so you remain hungry when fasting.

Does anyone else find fasting a little too easy given the range of delicious recipes available?

John.

observer

25-06-2003, 05:28 PM

This is just a comment as to why olive oil and wine were not allowed during fasting and why we have the confusion today. In earlier times, wine and oil were stored in animal skins. Therefore, during the meat fast, wine and oil (although not animal products themselves) were not allowed. As Fr. Averky said so well, "I am giving the traditional rules, people might want to disgree..." and prior to that "In the end, we all have to do the very best we can, not granting ourselves a personal "economia" because we don't really feel like fasting."

Chuck S.

25-06-2003, 11:32 PM

Thanks everyone!

I appreciate the good advice everyone has given so far. Thank you Brother Paul for the link. I will definitely check it out.

The problem I'm having is mainly this: that so much of the "lenten" foods simply do not agree with me. I know alot of people eat Spagetti (Greeks probably not others as much) but pasta in general doesn't (except stuff like macaroni and cheese) agree with for some reason. The last time I had spagetti I had an upset stomach for 2 days.

I'm trying to adjust to Greek cuisine, but much of it simply makes me ill. Even before I ever heard of the Orthodox Church I began sampling more raw foods because of the nutritional value, but lettuce is like the most disgusting thing to me...I'd rather eat leaves off a birch tree...LOL!

Everyone in my family loves salads, and I "wanted" to like lettuce and other leafy greens, but I just couldn't.
Maybe I'll try it again, it has been a year since I tried it last.

I definitely WANT to fast the proper way, because I know it helps draw us closer to God, and has many spiritual benefits. (as well as healthful too) So it isn't that I'm trying to make an excuse not to...even if it sounds like it.

Anyways, I'll continue to try to adjust, and will look at the website posted, and will try and follow everyones advice.

In Christ, Thomas

Beryl Wells Hamilton

26-06-2003, 03:02 AM

Dear Thomas,

Fasting will "grow" on you, and you will grow into it. It will become a gift of joy. Don't be too hard on yourself at first. The guilt trip is far worse than anything, and definitely not from the Lord. It can make you go in the other direction, because you get so disgusted with yourself for not fasting properly, or puffed up with pride for fasting "perfectly," where someone else DARED to eat margarine with WHEY!!! If you fast with understanding, wisdom, and balance, it becomes a wonderful weapon against the demons.

Our priest, Fr. Christopher, gave me some wisdom recently on the meaning of asceticism, fasting, and reading things like the Philokalia. The rest of the post is taken from what he wrote to me. I hope it helps you as well:

The Greek word for ascetic literally means "to exercise or to labor", and has come also in Greek to mean "to practice self-discipline". A literal English definition of the word (from Webster) is: "practicing strict self-denial as a measure of spiritual discipline".

Asceticism does not equal the monastic life. Monastic life is but one tiny subset of asceticism. Any moment you deny yourself for
the greater love of God (and neighbor) you are being ascetical.

We must fast, but it does not make fasting anything more than a dungpile in the light of gaining Christ (Phil. 3:8).

What you want is communion with God, and this is what you strive for. Fasting is a meager (albeit necessary) part of it...a speck of dust in our search for God in our hearts. True asceticism is self denial of temporal things for the love of
God and neighbor. So use caution when reading monastic literature regarding the particulars of asceticism. Do not fall into the trap of so many who want what the monks *have*, but then pursue the things that monks *do*, and because of this error, they become mad.

One need not be a monastic ascetic to have deeper communion with God than any monk or nun ever did. Consider Zechariah & Elizabeth, very much
married, and these had angels appear directly to them.

Be sure you long for what monks have, and not what they do, or you will be longing for rubbish.

******

Beryl

Effie Ganatsios

26-06-2003, 05:29 AM

Thomas, fasting as John and others have stressed is not about health. It is about restraining one of our appetites, it is just one way of controlling our flesh, it is not enough just to eat or not to eat certain foods. There are many terrific articles on Greek Orthodox sites on what fasting is all about.

That said, and because we are stewards of our bodies as we are of so many other things, this earth included, we should also ensure that while fasting we don't endanger our health.

As others have told you there are many wonderful recipes available on the net. You know what you like and what you don't like, what makes you "sick" and what doesn't. Be mature about it, learn about fasting, and go on from there.

One thing that you should remember however is that eating a 100$ lobster dinner instead of a humble beefburger is not exactly what fasting is about.

Good Luck

Effie

Fr Averky

26-06-2003, 06:42 AM

Dear Beryl,

Beryl, who dared to tell you about our cook! Dear Thomas, listen to the wisdom of Effie and Beryl. As Beryl says, asceticism is possible and desirable for every serious Christian, in fact, the rules are the same for evreyone. I have heard people say, " I cannot fast, I am not a monk! there have been laypeople who have outshown many a monk.

Fasting is an offering to God; Great Lent is our "tithe," our ten percent of the year given to God. The church ask us to fast to prepare for special feasts; Pascha, Sts Peter and Paul, ther Dormition, and Nativity. I was reading letters of advice from St. Ambrose of Optina, a great Russian Elder of the late nineteenth century. He was very understanding to people who were having real problems with fasting. He did not excuse them from the fast, but urged them to do the best they could.

On the other hand, there are those who carefully read every ingredient on every package. Once during Great Lent, I was the cook, and one of my more "zealous" seminarians informed me that we could not have non-dairy creamer with our coffee because it had an egg by-product in it. I told him the story of the late Archbishop Averky, a great bishop, monk, and excellent teacher and preacher. One day he asked one of his cell attendants, a convert to bring his favorite cookies with his four o'clock tea. The young monk informed the bishop that he could not, because the cookies had eggs in them. Looking him almost fiercely, the usually calm Archbishop said, "I said, I want my cookies, I do not recall having asked for eggs!" They were brought to him with out another word, then, or ever again.
.
John Wilson questions whether we are keeping the spirit of the fast if we are preparing all kinds of Lenten "goodies," or gourmet dishes. Of course, it is possible to switch from rich and expensive meat dishes to rich and expensive seafood dishes. When mentioning seafood, I wanted to point out what can be eaten, not suggesting that we should feast on lobster tails. ( not intended to be a "slap" to you, dear Effie ). During Great Lent especially, we need to eat very modestly. The monastic rule when eating is to eat very moderately, and never to complete satisfaction, lest the passions rise up and overwhelm us. The rule is as follows: "eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and supper like a pauper". Thomas look around; there are so many good and wholesome fasting foods. when I bought my second iMac, it came with a CD with hundreds of recipes from Williams-Sanoma, a purveyor of high end cookware. I found several simple and nutritious dishes there.

Beryl, Effie and John, hit on the same point: we do not fast for health reasons, but for ascetical reasons; this does not mean that we are to do it to an extreme. Several years ago, one of our older hieromonks got a blessing to do something rather extreme; he ate only prosphora ( Russian prosphora are about the size of a large butter milk biscuit), and holy water or weak tea for the entire length of Great Lent. He made it, but it ruined his health for the rest of his life.

We are not called on to fast with a venom: we do it out of love for God and for the betterment of our souls. What good does it do if we fast strictly, and then become impatient and cranky? I remember one American couple who had not been Orthodox very long. At the end of a very trying Great Lent, the husband said to me, "If my wife brings me one more Pepperidge Farm apple turnovers, I am going to rip her hair out!"

Christ Himself said that when we fast we are to wash our face and comb our hair, and not stand dressed in rough cloth, covered with ashes, for that is hypocritical and attention-seeking. Fasting, like prayer, and all spiritual excercises, is a matter of the heart and the soul; it is an opportunity to grow closer to the Lord by emulating Him in our small, weak way. Our Lord fasted for forty days in the desert before he began His public service to His Heavenly Father. When his disciples complained that they could not cast out evil spirits in His Name, He sighed and told them that this could only be accomplishe by "prayer and fasting."

So, dear Thomas, you do not have to eat food which makes you sick; seek out food that is plain, nutritious, and which does not effect you physically. For the newly-illumined, it is part of the struggle, and to struggle is never easy. As I said before, for vanity's sake, it is amazing how people can eat so little that they faint, and put their bodies through almost physical torture in order to become "attractive", while fasting and making full prostrations is just "too much."

Thomas, it is a matter of attitude, and try to get that good attitude, and keep it in your heart. All good efforts should draw us closer to God otherwise they are useless, and the bottom line here is that if we can learn to live our life being moderate in all aspects, then eating simply and in moderation will not appear to be so extreme. We have to learn to live with what we "need," and not just always having what we "want". God help you.

Love,

Fr. A.

Chuck S.

26-06-2003, 10:14 PM

Thank you everyone so much for your words of wisdom.

Beryl, yor priests letter was quite appopriate and helpul. Effie, that you for your words as well. To John and everyone who posted.

Dear Father, what you said has made me really think. Like you said I know fasting is not about health, but I of course do not want to ruin my health either. For I know this would not be pleasing to God either.

I admit I've been guilty of being too legalistic about the fasting. I knew it when I was doing it. (like looking at every ingredient in bread or plain crackers and seeing "cottonseed oil" and freaking out,...LOL!

I knew that simply was the wrong attitude, yet I simply wanted to do my very best for the Lord. I wanted to please the Lord, yet I didn't realize my "best" wasn't actually the right attitude and not pleasing to God.

Everyones words have been a tremndous help and encouragment. I truly appreciate your advice, and will definitely take it and use it.

Thank you again everyone...

In Christ, Thomas

John Kapetan

27-06-2003, 03:46 AM

Dear listmembers:

This question regards what should we do if, when fasting, we serve a meal to someone who is eating meat. If the person does not finish the meal, should we in humility finish the leftovers so as not to throw away food. Or should we throw the food out, wasting what we have asked the Lord to bless.

Sorry this question sounds like one of the Herodians, Scribes, or Pharisees looking to trap the Lord.

In Christ,

John K

Heather M

27-06-2003, 04:10 AM

Hello John...

It is sort of a "thing" in my family that when we have a guest over for dinner, we offer the leftovers to the guest.

I have a question too though...my family is still adjusting to my decision to convert to Orthodoxy, so whenever I am visiting them and it also happens to be a fast day, I usually just eat whatever they are having so that I don't cause anyone to feel like they have to make something special for me, or make them feel uncomfortable or anything. Is there anyone who can say whether this has been a good decision, or not? I think in time they will become easier with this transformation in my life...but for now, I'm scared of making them uneasy around me.

thank you,
heather

John Kapetan

27-06-2003, 04:21 AM

Dear Heather:

It seems like we both have the two extremes of fasting in our families, relations etc. Not only do I wonder what to do if I'm picking up someone's food that had meat in it. But one time my mother actually asked the waitress in a restaurant what kind of fasting-food for Lent that they had. I didn't know whether to feel humbled or exalted because they were making a big scene with regards to fasting. Whatever help can be offerred.

In Christ,

John K

Effie Ganatsios

27-06-2003, 06:33 AM

Heather, I can understand how uncomfortable you might feel wanting something different and then deciding to just eat what everyone else is eating.

I know how embarrassing it is not being able to eat what everyone else is eating.

Last year I was diagnosed with diabetes and came close to dying because I didn't know I had it. At first I was very stressed out because I had a very strict diet and I remember feeling very uncomfortable at a wedding reception I attended at that time because I had to wait for my order - by the time it came everyone else had eaten. I'm now more relaxed and just select the foods I know I can eat. For example grilled chicken or steak is usually served with potatoes or rice - I ignore the potatoes and rice and eat more salad to compensate.

Fasting when no-one else is fasting is the same..... the secret is just to select things that are permitted. There's no need to make a fuss. Fasting periods here are easy because most people are fasting when you are and even if you're invited for afternoon coffee or something housewives make various "fasting" snacks and sweets which are delicious - little apple turnovers come to mind.........

I think we tend to make too much of something when we are trying to adjust to a new way of doing things. After an initial difficult period everything becomes much easier.

Fr Averky

27-06-2003, 06:41 AM

Dear Heather,

"The time is coming and is here now" that you will have to live an Orthodox Christian life and to witness for it. If your family expresses doubts about fasting, thinking it a little weird, then simply inform them that fasting is an ancient Christian tradition, starting with Christ Himself. Then you can add that until the split of Rome from the True Church, and then the Protestant revolt, all Christians fasted. I know you are meek by nature, but you must gently and firmly stand up for what you believe; God will give you the time and the right words to explain yourself and defend your Faith.

As to eating left overs rather than wasting food, I find that a rather flimsy reasoning: unless the family will starve if they do not eat the left overs, and if the left overs cannot be stored until the next day, or frozen, then perhaps the family could start a little compost area in the back yard, and use it in the garden.

Fr. A.

Effie Ganatsios

27-06-2003, 06:57 AM

Reply to john's post "But one time my mother actually asked the waitress in a restaurant what kind of fasting-food for Lent that they had. I didn't know whether to feel humbled or exalted because they were making a big scene with regards to fasting. Whatever help can be offerred. "

Hi John.

If it was a Greek restaurant I don't think there would be any problem because they would understand your mother but imagining her doing this in another restaurant made me laugh. What was the reaction?

The answer here is the same as that in my message to Heather - it's best just to select something from the menu that you are permitted to eat...
without explaining why you're selecting it - it's none of their business anyway.

Drawing attention to ourselves is not the Orthodox way. Fasting is our own decision and is not something that other people need to know about. One of the Desert Fathers (can't remember which one but I have it filed somewhere) said that fasting should be done in secret and should not be talked about because that defeats its purpose.

Effie

Effie Ganatsios

27-06-2003, 07:34 AM

I didn’t find the quote I referred to in my previous message but I found the following in the book I made for the Lent period.

Isidore (36) wrote : Epistle 403 “Fasting in respect of food is of no benefit for those who fail to fast with all their sense; for whosoever is successfully waging his battle must be temperate in all things.”

St. John Chrysostom on Fasting :

do you fast? Give me proof of it by your works.
If you see a poor man, take pity on him.
If you see a friend being honoured, do not envy him.
Do not let only your mouth fast, but also the eye and the ear and the feet and the hands and all the members of our bodies.
Let the hands fast, by being free of avarice.
Let the feet fast, by ceasing to run after sin.
Let the eyes fast, by disciplining them not to glare at that which is sinful.
Let the ear fast, by not listening to evil talk and gossip.
Let the mouth fast from foul words and unjust criticism.
For what good is it if we abstain from birds and fishes, but bite and devour our brothers?
May HE who came to the world to save sinners strengthen us to complete the fast with humility, have mercy on us and save us.

And some practical advice from the fathers :

“The Holy Fathers recommend “moderate” fasting, one ought not to allow the body to be weakened too much, for then the soul, too, is harmed. Nor ought one to undertake fasting too suddenly; everything demands practice, and each one should look to his own nature and occupation. To choose among different kinds of food is to be condemned; all food is God-given, but it is advisable to avoid such kinds as add to the body’s weight and appetite, strong spices, meat, spirituous drinks and such foods areas are solely for the palate’s enjoyment. For the rest, one may eat what is cheap and most easily available, they say. But by “moderate” they mean one meal a day and that one light enough not to fill the stomach to satiety.”

“one may eat what is cheap and most easily available” so I guess expensive lobster dinners are definitely out!!!

Today is the second last day of the Apostle’s Fast - the church bells have been ringing all morning.

Effie

Owen Jones

27-06-2003, 07:44 AM

Of course the true meaning of fasting is to fast from anger, resentments, defiance of God's commandments, bitterness, self-centered fear and worry. And because our bodies and souls are inextricably linked, we fast to purify our bodies, not in a biochemical sense (gnosticism), but for true theoretical and practical reasons -- to purify our bodies is a pre-condition to purification of our souls -- that's the Christian theory which is not demonstrable -- and for the pragmatic reason that learning a discipline in one area spills over into another (which is, indeed demonstrable). WE have to train (ascesis) our bodies by denying foods, which is very simple, in order to train our psyches not to hate or seek revenge or judge others (much more complex). We move from the simple to the complex. If we lose the connection, if we get caught up in only the fasting as an end in itself (phariseeism), then we are better off not fasting at all. Which is I think the point with Jesus defying some of the fasting laws of the temple.

I can picture in my mind a holy fool entering a wealthy Greek Orthodox parish hall during the fast, bringing with him a rare beefsteak that he crassly devours in front of everyone. I could not do that, since I am neither holy nor a fool.

John Wilson

27-06-2003, 07:50 AM

Dear Heather,

Most people do not have too much of a problem preparing special food for vegetarians and I'm pretty sure that most airlines would cater for special dietary needs if informed in advance when you book or purchase your ticket. So it should not be too much of a hassle for your parents if you let them know in advance that you will not be able to eat meat/eggs/milk/cheese on the day you will be visiting.

Maybe you could buy your mother a cookbook with Lenten recipes which also has a calendar with the "fast" days included. You may find in time that your Mum will not need to be informed in advance as she will have already checked what you can/can't eat. That is fairly usual for Mums who love their children.

There a probably a number of suitable cookbooks but the one which we have is called "The Festive Fast" which is available in English and Greek and perhaps other languages too. It has a large range of recipes, many of which can be cooked with or without oil, and there are quotes from the Holy Fathers interspersed throughout plus a description of the fasting days and what can be eaten (and what is permitted if a feast day falls within a fasting period)

Here is what GOOGLE turned up. (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22The%2BFestive%2BFast%22&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) Mmm, lots of other recipe books there too, yummy http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif.

John

Fr Averky

27-06-2003, 09:20 AM

Effie,

I will send you an international money order so that you can buy two large lobsters, one for you, and one for your husband.

Love in Christ,

Fr. A

Fr Averky

27-06-2003, 09:25 AM

Owen Jones,

"I am neither holy or a fool."

Owen, beloved in Christ, Owen, how could you say that you are not a fool? All of us, every single one of us, has managed to make a "fool" of ourselves several times in our lives. Please, do not stand apart from the rest of us -being foolish is just a part of our common fallen state.

With much love in our Saviour,

Fr. A.

Effie Ganatsios

27-06-2003, 09:39 AM

John Hi!

Did you buy "The Festive Fast" in Greece?

I have Monk's Cookery Book by Archimandrite Dositheos of The holy Monastery of Tatarnis in Eurytania.

This book is hugely popular in Greece and deserves its popularity. The author has interspersed his recipes (which are all traditional monastery fare) with wry comments e.g. we need to be especially wary of fish-sellers because they have been known to substitute cheaper fish for those we have ordered. He then gives a list of fish that look alike but have different prices!

The book is in Greek but the instructions are so simple and entertaining that it's a joy to read.

Archimandrite Dositheos also has a lot to say about food and Orthodoxy but in such a gentle and humorous way that he teaches without you being aware of it.

Effie

Effie Ganatsios

27-06-2003, 09:50 AM

Father Averky, thank you soooo much!!! I could do with a lobster or two.... right about now.

I'll be off-line from the day after tomorrow and I just wanted to say to everyone, but especially to you, how much I have enjoyed being a part of this discussion group.

I have not replied to every message that has had a positive effect on me but know that your messages, especially, have become very special to me. They have comforted and instructed me many times.

The person or people who are responsible for this discussion group have done something good and need to be thanked.

Effie

John Wilson

27-06-2003, 01:12 PM

Hello Effie,

I think we got the book at www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr (http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/) if I remember correctly. I know it is available there in english and greek.

When you say you will be offline next week is it because you are going away on holidays or is it simply because your internet account has expired? I ask because I was hoping to drag Andonis to Kozani for a day if he had the spare time in his itinerary. I'm still waiting for him to post a message that he has arrived in Greece.

John.

Owen Jones

27-06-2003, 03:50 PM

Not everything has a spiritual meaning, father. In my case, if I deliberately defied the fast, publicly, it would not be for spiritual reasons, and everyone would see it as it was -- simple attention getting. So I would be a fool to deliberately antagonize a parish in that manner. I may be your average run of the mill fool, but I'm not that much of a fool!

Owen

John Kapetan

27-06-2003, 05:24 PM

Effie,

Unfortunately it wasn't a Greek restaurant. I think they were Irish. They probably knew what she meant.

What I forgot to put in the original message was that she said 'for my son, he's fasting'. The waitress could have thought she meant one of her other 3 sons or her son in law. I think the waitress knew what she meant. I just slipped futher into my chair because of the embarassment.

Not embarassment because I was fasting, or embarassment because of Jesus, but just that a bit of a scene came of it. Like as if I was doing something 'good' or something special.

I could have ordered without anyone knowing anything. I guess it just seemed like a religious faux pas.

In Christ,

John K

Effie Ganatsios

27-06-2003, 08:05 PM

Thanks for the link, John (Wilson).

I'll be off-line because my internet account expires tomorrow and I don't want to renew it at the moment because I spend too much time on the Internet. As you know, I've done the same thing in the past.

John, I'll be in Kozani so telephone me when Andonis gets in touch with you. I'll be glad to meet both you and Andonis. I'd also love to meet your wife and children.

Effie

Effie Ganatsios

27-06-2003, 08:12 PM

Reply to John (Kapitan).

Sorry about the surname John, but I added it to avoid confusion.

Your message made me laugh and feel sympathy for your poor mother. I frequently embarrass my son (according to him anyhow). It's sometimes easier for mothers not to say anything at all but feel secretly pleased at the thought that one day, one day their son's children will act exactly the same way with them..............

At least the restaurant wasn't one of those pseudo aristocratic places where you're too intimidated to tell the waitor that the wine he recommended tasted horrible!!! Catholics, at least, understand fasting.

Effie

Elizabeth Riggs

27-06-2003, 08:30 PM

I think the suggestions earlier about not making a fuss about fasting at restaurants and just ordering something that "fits" your discipline is appropriate.

The Orthodox Women's List maintains a list of fasting recipes for it's members. There are other recipes on the St. Nicholas Church (ROCA) website as well as other Orthodox Parish websites.

I found difficulty in getting enough protein to keep me from hypoglycemia when fasting. I have had to make a point of getting a complete protein (legumes and grain) at least once a day and much tofu. There are other appropriate sources of protein, too, such as peanutbutter sandwiches and shellfish (but shellfish is a little expensive and we usually only have it 1 or 2 times a week in small amounts).

All that aside, one should only fast under the guidance of a spiritual father (priest, confessor) who will ensure you do not get into the prelest of fasting too much or being judgemental of other people who do not fast in the same way you do.

Some people are allowed to use oils other than olive oil, while others are restricted from all oils, even shortenings. The degree of abstention is determined on an individual basis, and may hav to do with an individual's ability to absorb the fat-soluble vitamins, ability to absorb protein from vegetarian sources, or medical conditions (diabetes, other diseases, etc.).

The business of reading labels and avoiding products with caseinate or whey (listed 25th down) can become an issue of being pharisetical. We must watch for these kinds of things in ourselves, and avoid them.

With love in Christ,
Elizabeth, the sinner
and Perennial Student

Heather M

28-06-2003, 12:34 AM

Dear John and Fr Averky,

Thank you. I guess the time has come for me to grow a backbone on certain issues. I just don't want to make anyone feel as though I'm trying to have that "holier than thou" type attitude. To a certain extent, I almost feel like my actions will play some role in whether my family and close friends come closer to Orthodoxy. After all, it was through my older sister that I have come to this point. One relative already said that it must have been some personal flaw or quirk in me that made me need Orthodoxy. I didn't really understand what she meant by that. Anyway, I think they are starting to adjust, and like I said before, they will be attending my baptism Sunday. I hope and pray that they will be touched in some way on that day. After witnessing a baptism last week, I don't see how anyone can be at such an event, and go away untouched.

----heather

David L Watkins

28-06-2003, 12:47 AM

Heather, Congratulations on your upcoming baptism. God be with you and strengthen you.

David

cale

28-06-2003, 01:20 AM

Hey Heather, I know how it can be with family who are not Orthodox. I converted 6 years ago and none of my family is religious at all. My Father is an atheist (a very loving and humble atheist), my mother is a lapsed Catholic/femenist. At first they thought I was totally crazy. They would say some very strange and very hurtful things sometimes. I used to let it get to me a bit, and of course I wanted to convert them all!

The family, and especialy for converts, is an ideal field of practical philosophy. A place given by our Master in which we can practice his commandments and learn to Love even those who insult and try to hurt us.

If you strive to follow Christs commandments amongst your family and friends, although you may not convert a single one of them to Christ, they will never be the same again, and your soul will shine from within.

Trust in God, Heather, dont look back http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Heather M

28-06-2003, 04:32 AM

Thank you Cale...I had not looked at it that way before.
Thank you also David...I am very excited about what is about to take place.
Dear Father Averky...this morning after reading your post to me, I opened my book that I told you about...the excerpts from "My Life in Christ" and lo, the following quote: "As sincere, fervent prayer is connected with abstinence, abstinence and fasting are necessary in order to maintain within ourselves the Christian life--the ardour of faith, hope and love. Nothing so soon extinguishes the spirit of faith within us as intemperance, indulgence, excessive search for amusement, and an irregular life."
The part about an "irregular life" really caught my eye.
Just thought I'd share that with you. :o)
heather

Chuck S.

28-06-2003, 04:48 AM

Hi Heather,

Congratulations on your upcoming entrance into the Orthodox Church.

Just a couple weeks after my Chrismation, I witnessed my first baptism, and it was SO powerful. I simply could not believe how powerful it was. So I know what you mean.

As far as fasting around non-Orthodox...try not too worry about it too much. When I'm at someones house on a fast day, and I tell them I'm fasting they usually just look at me funny for a minute then forget about it...LOL!

Don't worry. They wont think you're in some weird cult, or "pushing your religion" on them. They'll just be thankful you're not asking THEM to fast...http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Sorry for the making light of this, but I'm just trying to ease your nervousness here. I dont think it will be as a big deal as you're afraid.

I felt sort of the same way as you did at first, but the above things I mentioned are usually the responses I got. So now I no longer worry about it. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Again, congrats on your baptism Heather.

In Christ, Thomas

Fr Averky

28-06-2003, 04:50 AM

Dear In Christ Owen,

As I always appreciate the very good I see in you, I accept your words, but you are using a false premise. We don't have to act spiritually to make a fool of ourselves.

I once worked with a delightful African American girl, and I once said to her, "Tammy. why don't you get married, so I can get drunk and make a fool of myself?" Not missing a beat, she replied, "I don't need to get married so that you can make a fool of yourself!"

All the best, Owen.

Fr. A.

Heather M

28-06-2003, 04:57 AM

Dear Thomas,
Thanks. You're right, I try not to worry about it too much. Most of the time when it's a fast day, I try to eat at home.
much love, heather

George Hawkins

28-06-2003, 06:11 AM

In response to Owen's 'Holy Fool' scene, I have read that there was a Holy Fool (I can't remember the name) that during Great Lent offered meat to Ivan the Terrible...

As for fasting and family, it has never been a problem in my family - I have been truly blessed with wonderful parents, who have been very accepting of all the differences between my way of life and theirs. My father who is a great meat eater will sometimes light heartedly ask if I want a steak for tea (dinner) if i am visiting, but he doesn't mean anything by it. My mother has never really liked meat much anyway, nor have I, and I can probably count how many times I have eaten meat in the last five years on my hands. Often if I am visiting and it is just my mother and me, we will have Indian food or something like that. It is strangely enough, easier to get fasting food here in NZ than in Japan, where these days meat or meat products seem to be in everything making it difficult to eat out, and even bread has milk and eggs listed in the ingrediants (I ended up making my own, and got a lot of enjoyment out of making my own food).

George

M.C. Steenberg

28-06-2003, 11:57 AM

Dear all,

For those who are interested in matters historical (i.e. this is not an attempt at dogmatics or at prescription): It appears that the distinction between Olive Oil and other vegetable oils during fasting periods originated as a matter of economy in Russia, at a point during which, at least in most households, cooking without any oil left most with no options. The distinction between Olive Oil (which tastes good) and other oils (which were seen as tasting less pleasant, or at least as lacking the flavour of delicacy of a nice olive oil) was contrived a manner in which a sacrifice might be made without destroying the possibility of cooking any meals at all with the limited supplied available at the time.

The custom became widespread, and travelled via the diaspora to lands far and wide, where the situation of lacking other cooking options did not apply in the same way. There has been a move over the past years, within the various Russian jurisdictions around the world, to re-assert the canonical guidelines for a fast that excludes oil altogether and makes no distinction of type (the canons nowhere proscribe olive oil while allowing other sorts).

INXC, Matthew

Effie Ganatsios

28-06-2003, 03:31 PM

Orthodox fasting is good for our health :

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-05/bc-ocl052803.php

George Hawkins

30-06-2003, 02:44 AM

In response to Effie's post, of course the health of our soul is of much greater importance than the health of our bodies!

Martha Columba

02-11-2005, 12:42 PM

Another random (& I hope not too legalistic) question:

Does the fast begin the evening beforehand, e.g., Friday's observance actually begins at Thursday dinnertime/extends 'til Friday sundown? And this applies to all fastdays?
Humbly, +M

Fr Aaron Warwick

02-11-2005, 03:27 PM

Dear Martha:

Generally, for laypeople, the fast is from midnight to midnight. Technically speaking, the fast is from Compline to Compline. Since Compline is probably not said by most laypeople, or, if it is, is probably not said at its technically proper time (sometime around midnight), then laypeople fast from midnight to midnight.

Aaron

Fr Raphael Vereshack

02-11-2005, 04:18 PM

Perhaps liturgically it is better to see the fast as lasting from Liturgy to Liturgy. Some say that it is after Vespers that the fasting rule changes to the next day but this is almost certainly wrong- for example on Holy Saturday after the Vesperal Liturgy of St. Basil we do not start eating paschal food. We wait until after the Paschal Liturgy because this is the culmination of the feast. In this sense then we begin the new fasting rule of each liturgical day after Liturgy because Liturgy is the liturgical culmination of each day.

Nowadays however as few are able to attend daily Liturgy it is probably better to think of the fasting rule for each day as lasting simply from when one gets up in the morning until when one goes to bed at night. A very important point here is that fasting according to the Church is liturgical- ie fasting has its own rhythm according to the feasts or saints of the day. One's spiritual life is immeasurably enriched if one fasts in this way.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Father David Moser

02-11-2005, 04:59 PM

I agree with Fr Raphael in that for the overwhelming majority of the laity the fast is kept "from sleep to sleep". In that case the fast begins when you lie down to sleep the night before and ends when you lie down to sleep the next night (or the last day of the fast). Any rule is open to all kinds of complex pharisaical rationalization and manipulation (like "shifting" the mealtime on fast days so as to fall within the non-fasting hours) which essentially serve to avoid or negate the fast, therefore one of the essential keys is *consistency*.

Another important thing to recall is that the fasting rule of the Orthodox Church is not a "legal" requirement, rather it is a therapeutic program. As spiritual therapy, it only is as beneficial as you make it by your participation.

Archpr. David

Martha Columba

03-11-2005, 02:35 AM

Fathers, bless.

Thank you all for your quick replies. Since we have a young baby, my Priest has instructed me not to fast (from foods). I was just wondering -- I'm grateful for your detailed responses.
Christ is risen!
+ M

katya the nurse-aid

03-11-2005, 03:38 AM

is this was premature birth? huh? it is not december yet...well my father was born at his 7 months...but he did good...right on 19th of january...Kreshenie...Theophany...so you never know...

Olga

07-11-2005, 04:33 AM

Dear Martha Columba

Your priest has instructed you correctly. According to the Canons of Bishop Timothy of Alexandria (forgotten which century and which local Council), a woman who is pregnant or breastfeeding is not required to keep any fast (including during Great Lent), as it is more necessary for her to provide adequately for her child, born or unborn.

Theopesta

07-11-2005, 08:21 AM

Dear Martha and Olga
The Early Church Fathers Series in WinHelp Format
A 37-volume electronic collection of writings from the first 800 years of the Church.:

THE CANONICAL ANSWERS OF TIMOTHY, THE MOST HOLY BISHOP OF ALEXANDRIA, WHO WAS ONE OF THE CL FATHERS GATHERED TOGETHER AT CONSTANTINOPLE, TO THE QUESTIONS PROPOSED TO HIM CONCERNING BISHOPS AND CLERICS:

QUESTION VIII.
Ought a woman in child-bed to keep the Paschal fast?
Answer: No.

in one christ, theopesta

Jan McGuffin

02-01-2007, 09:51 PM

Some friends have been attending Orthodox Services for around two years and have been Orthodox since last Pascha. They have been concerned over the following for some time and it is an ongoing issue with both to varying degrees. Neither of them are into posting on the net and so I finally asked her to try and verbalize their problem. We discussed it back and forth until she came up with what she felt to be a fairly succinct statement of the problem. I told her I would post after having found a polite and knowledgeable website and see if there was a response that might help them through this particular problem:

“The reason for this question is. My husband and I are fairly new converts to Orthodoxy from a Protestant background (Methodist / Episcopal for me and Congregationalist for my husband) and we both are struggling with balancing rote observance of fasting rules and trying to focus on spiritual discipline – I have a problem with this and my husband even more so. He can't see the
point in fasting "all the time". How do we find the best starting point and motivation?

It is confusing when many statements regarding fasting seemingly contradict each other. We have no problem intellectually with the physical praxis - we struggle to understand how to use fasting for spiritual growth. How do we avoid becoming Pharisees rotely following the fast rules (turning an exercise in spiritual discipline into an exercise in futility)? How does the fasting become a means to an end, rather than an end in itself?”