Breaking the fast for love

[Petros Stefanis]

Greetings in Christ,

I am new here and firstly I wish to say that I find it a great Orthodox forum with many varied interesting and informative discussions, free of the 'hate mongering' forums i have seen in the past.

My question may sound silly, and I apologise if it does, but my wife and I are at odds regarding the correct (doctrinal)answer. I was once told a story where a monk, isolated on a remote island, had fasted for 39 days, after which time a group of visitors arrived and offered him non fasting food. Not wishing to offend them, he accepted. His view was that it would be a greater sin to offend by rejecting the hospitality offered to him than to break the fast he was on.

Any thoughts on this subject will be greatly appreciated,

In Christ
IC XC NIKA
+petros

[Irene]

Dear Petros, In Christ,
Not that I should be answering, being unqualified, however, I have heard similar stories so many times. If I put myself in the same position - am I accepting because I believe it will hurt the person if I refuse - eg someone who doesn't know any better - a non Orthodox person. Or am I accepting because I am weakening and tempted by the food.

If my own family (non-Orthodox) offers me non-fasting food knowing that it is Great Lent and I fast then I would politely refuse. If it was some situation were the person couldn't have know and it would cause great offense then I would try very hard to avoid eating the non-lenten food (quietly) and definitely not take any extra.

Having said that, I think in this day and age with so many people Vegetarian and Vegan it shouldn't really be offensive in a culture like ours, to say to anyone, politely, that I can only eat the vegetables or bread or whatever. If we were in another country refusing might cause great offense.

irene

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

Just a note to indicate that I've re-shuffled several posts round to create a new sub-folder in the 'Ascesis and Praxis' area called 'All About Fasting', which now contains re-named versions of several previous and current threads dealing with fasting from various angles. I hope that this will help group together these related discussions and make location of conversations on fasting easier to locate in future.

INXC, Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Petros, you wrote:


My question may sound silly, and I apologise if it does, but my wife and I are at odds regarding the correct (doctrinal)answer. I was once told a story where a monk, isolated on a remote island, had fasted for 39 days, after which time a group of visitors arrived and offered him non fasting food. Not wishing to offend them, he accepted. His view was that it would be a greater sin to offend by rejecting the hospitality offered to him than to break the fast he was on.

This is not a silly question in the slightest. The general 'rule' as encouraged by most priests and spiritual fathers is that fasting, as an act properly done 'in secret' (cf. Matthew 6.16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=Matthew+6%3A16-18)), mustn't be allowed through our structures to hinder our adherence to the greatest commandments: that our love of God also be expressed in love of neighbour. If we militantly reject, as a guest at someone's home during a fast, the food put before us 'because we're fasting and that's not acceptable food during the fast', we might keep the commandment to fast but break the commandment to love, which Christ himself notes is higher.

The situation dictates, of course. As Irene mentioned in her post, it is a different affair within one's own home: if a spouse offers the other non-fasting food on a fasting day, it is entirely reasonable to put forward gentle correction, since this is in fact part of the bond of love.

INXC, Matthew

[Irene]

Dear Petros,

Thankyou for your message and welcome to Monachos, it is a very interesting site which I highly recommend to people who are serious about Orthodoxy... Irene

[Gilbert Gandenberger]

I agree with all said above, that accepting rather than causing the other person embarassment is the best way to handle. One way I've handled these situations, where to refuse all food would be inappropriate but limiting what you accept is just fine, is to either say I'm dieting, or to say I'm in training (since I run a lot, these are both true, and avoid the problem of not fasting in secret).

[Andrey Vershinin]

I have quite a problem on my hands in the house, I dont have much food that I can while fasting; so I wonder, should I stop the fast? my dad is angry that I refuse to eat regularly, and mocks me and the reasons to fast.(although I am somewhat distracted in this environment because I live with a worldly neighborhood)
Although at times I just simply turn my attention away from truly good reasons to fast, and try to distract myself

[Vasilis Kirikos]

> It is my understanding that fasting from food and drink is not what the TRUE fast is all about. Abstaining from food and drink is a method used to discipline ourselves for the true fast. My understanding is that the TRUE FAST IS A FAST WITH OUR TONGUES AND ACTIONS ..WHAT WE SAY AND HOW WE ACT..THAT IS THE TRUE FAST. Vasilis

[Basil]

Andrey,

It's very difficult to fast, when you live in a household that does not observe it. There is nothing wrong with asking to be accomodated, if it's not a large inconvenience. While you're in that household, you can still keep the spirit of the fast by limiting portions and humbly accept the food offered to you without grumbling.

I would like the council of someone wiser, but if my wife seems too distressed by a strict fast, I make concessions to keep the peace and to insure she doesn't fall prey to resentment or other anguish over the fast. The fasts are an aid to our salvation, but they can become a soure of pride and may even lead to apostacy in some cases if we try to fast beyond our ability. We must be moderate in our fasts and seek the advice of our Spiritual Fathers to insure we aren't fasting in the wrong spirit.

Basil

[Leandros Papadopoulos]

Dear Andrey Vershinin,

If you have changed your diet, then your family would have not argued about your diet habits.

But, now it is known that you are doing something they do not and you somehow criticize them by the peculiarity of your life against their “normality”.

Fasting is not an end in itself. What is important is to fast, or not to fast, with the blessing of a priest. The blessing is important and then the obedience, not the mere action.

Your family and your home is the place where you live, and I understand that it is very difficult to compromise between two different lifestyles. I know very well your situation, because I once was in the same condition you are now and I was also in the same age as you are.

What makes the rest of the family to wonder is that they experience a sudden new introduction of incomprehensible behaviour.

If you adopt their diet and you cross yourself at the table before eating and at the end, not in a loud voice and in displaying your prayer, but in a voiceless and intimate way, then your family will realize that you are not criticize them, that you are not alienating your self from them and that your are not introducing a personal faith, but you are keeping your relation with your family and you value your family as equal as the Church.

We do not have to explain our faith in words. Our Christian faith is realized through our relations with the others. If I eat from a different pan than the others how can I be related with them? It is very easy to isolate from the others in the process of keeping the orders/canons of the Church. But we must be careful our behaviour not to become temptation for the others.

Fasting is the most precious practise that a Christian can perform in order to tame the passions from within. You must never abandon your incline for fasting! But in your condition I think the best thing is to consult a priest, your spiritual father, or a bishop.

As St Paul adviced the Church of Romans (Romans 14:14-23):

“I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.

Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin”.

Here, St Paul is talking about those who used to eat anything because they were strong in faith, compared with those who were weak in faith and they needed to fast. And he advised the stron ones to follow the weak ones in their fasting, so that the weak faithfuls would not feel alienated in their fasting lifestyle, against the “healthy” eating lifestyle of the strong ones. St Paul concludes: “For he who doubts … is not from faith”. St Paul’s doctrine is valid from his age to our days and, since then, everybody within the Church is fasting, from the newcomer in faith to the most experienced members of the Church.

St Paul’s advice is valid in your case too, because the heart of his advise is “Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love”; the issue is neither the eating nor the fasting. LOVE is the measure by which we scale EVERYTHING, fasting and eating included. If you follow the advice of St Paul, you will realise that the most important thing in our life is to make peace with our family members even if that means that we place our self in the back seat and we let them “drive” the family life.

Having said that, we must always ask for the blessing and guidance from our priest and we must never make decisions on our own without blessing.

If there is not an Orthodox priest or Church near you home, then I advice you to send a letter to an Orthodox Bishop asking for a spiritual father to assume the ministry of serving you. By correspondence you can estimate whether you feel comfortable with the specific priest, and then you can adopt him as your spiritual father. If you do not feel comfortable with the first recommended priest you should ask for another one until you find a spiritual father that comforts you in spirit.

A spiritual father is the first spiritual relation that is needed to be introduced in our lives (before everything else no matter how important) because we can ask for his blessing in our relations with other people either directly in personal meetings, either through correspondence (traditional mail – email) and through phone.

The Christian life is aiming in introducing in our lives healthy relations with other persons and to provide the blessing of Church to both us and to the others. If we are “spiritually” healthy and isolated from the others then we need to re-examine our spirituality - and the proper person for this examination is an Orthodox spiritual father.

Let me inform you, that a certain family member of my family who used to worry about my fasting and could not understood what the meaning of my fasting before twenty years was, she is now fasting in austerity. Now, I am the one to wonder how she can perform such hard ascetic practise with such joy. Life is a wonderland!

May God bless us, all.

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Andrey:

Despite all of the good things that people have said and the advice offered on this forum, it is best for you to consult your spiritual father and/or parish priest about your situation. Presumably, he knows you and your situation well and will be able to give you the most sound advice of anyone.

May God give you strength to endure the hardships that you face at home. Remember that whatever you decide best to do in this situation, God loves you and wants to draw near to you.

Aaron

[Irene]

Dear Andrey, You have quite a cross to bare, and enduring our crosses brings great rewards, if you can, take heart and endure, and pray for your family to soften and also for your own strength to increase with your Spiritual Fathers blessing. In Christ...i

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Matthew,

In your answer to Petros; and in another answer to Andrey, mention was made to "keeping the greatest commandment", and to "keeping the true fast, both which prompted the response in my heart -and thoughts- that the "true fast" is a fast of the heart. In other words, we enter and continue in the fast, in order to undo the ties of affection which bind us to the things of this world; i.e., to purify our hearts. His Grace Archbishop DIMTRI Royster (of the OCA) once wrote an article in which he said, "There is no fasting apart from forgiveness." As we all know, this is a trait of love as St. Paul wrote to the Church at Corinth.

It seems that I will never tire of the example of fasting God gives to the prophet Isaiah, whenever this topic arises. Yes there is the self-humbling aspect, but then there's the loosing of the bonds of wickedness, undoing the heavy burden, sharing your food and clothing!(Hmmm! This begins to sound familiarly like, "...the Spirit of the Lord is upon me...") And this is itself a remainder to me,of the message to the prophet Micah, "...And what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God."

The lamp of the body is the eye, if therefore your eye is clear your whole body will be full of light, so why do you say to your brother, there is a speck in your eye, and do not notice the log in your own eye?

So you see, or may not, as I wonder aloud, why I may think that the true fast, is a fast of the heart, not necessarily of love for one's brother in Christ, but for Christ Himself (whose love, as we know but do not always practice, extends to all).

As I say, I'm wondering aloud here, not knowing if this is a correct understanding of Scripture, theology or patristics.

a sinful and unworthy servant

[M.C. Steenberg]

A fast is a sacrifice of love, purification, and preparation. With a blessing, it does not have to have anything to do with food.

[Paul Cowan]

A fast is a sacrifice of love, purification, and preparation. With a blessing, it does not have to have anything to do with food.


This is the case in my house. As Great Lent starts, I thought I would get my fill of the fasting threads. Fasting from food helps us to fast from other sins. If we can fast from food, perhaps other sins will not over come us.

Due to medical restrictions, my wife cannot fulfill the food fast. She has the permission of our priest to fast from other things. I am able, so when we do eat, (I usually cook) I will prepare two separate meals or I will eat of hers what I am allowed.

Because she still wants to participate in the Lenten fast, though not from food, she has been given a blessing to fast from "things" in her life. This also is of the heart as food is to me. We all have passions. Fasting from them is the heart of the matter God is eager to see.

"A contrite God will not despise."

Paul

[John Charmley]

Dear Paul,

Your priest seems wise and compassionate.

Our Lord always warned against formalism, and clearly knew well the tendency of the religious among His creation to go in that direction.

Matthew Steenberg's words seem equally wise. Surely it is the purpose of our heart in fasting that matters? The Copts have, I think, 249 fasting days, and yesterday, after the Liturgy, when we were provided with a vegan lunch, I noticed that the priest, very quietly and unobtrusively, drank only a sip of water and ate nothing, all the while talking to us and moving among us; careful, always to make sure that everyone had a little breakfast (this was at 1.30). Indeed, it was only later that I realised he was keeping a strict fast - but making sure none of us were made in any way uncomfortable by the fact that we were not.

That seemed to me true humility - and an example of Christian behaviour from which I hope I can learn.

The intention of your wife's heart is known to the Lord, and, as you say, he does not despise an humble and contrite heart.

In Christ,

John

[Andreas Moran]

Lydia has been telling me some details of the life of Saint Afanasii (Sakharov) which she is still reading. It's a good starter for Lent. Bishop Afanasii was in the strictest of the camps from 1922 to 1955. The details of the horrors which went on there are unbelieveable. Try to imagine Hell at its worst and it doesn't come close. Yesterday's translated extracts included a priest being impaled on a wooden stake until the point came out of his mouth, an abbess being sawn in two with a wooden saw blade (slower than metal), and prisoners having flesh cut from their bodies, salt put in the wound and then being bound so they could do nothing about it. During forced labour outdoors, no water was provided - they had to drink from puddles in the road. During these horrors, Bishop Afanassi, and others like him, kept the fasts, trading any meat they were given for bread. Bishop Afanassi prayed for the torturers and thought himself unworthy to suffer for Christ but gave thanks that the Lord had deemed him worthy so to suffer.

I'm going to try harder this Lent.

[Andreas Moran]

Dear All,

Lydia has now finished reading the life of the holy Bishop, St Afanasii (Sakharov) (+1962). As she finished, she wept for several minutes. In addition to what I put in the previous post, I can add this. He (and thousands like him) endured conditions we can scarcely imagine. Living in foul conditions in the huts in the camps. Sleeping on a wooden bunk. Regular interrogations, beatings, tortures mental and physical and various sorts of humiliation. Seeing and hearing executions by impaling and dismemberment as well as shooting. For years despite ill health he was forced to walk kilometres with a work party to the forest to cut and carry heavy timber. When he said he could not do this, he was accused of 'sabotage' and another year was added to his sentence. He counted himself fortunate when he was switched to cleaning out the latrines - little more than filthy holes in the ground. Meat - and God kows what sort it was -was deliberately given, the guards knowing that monastics could not eat it. So he lived mostly on a bread ration of half a kilo a day. One day during a Great Lent, he was being transported with other prisoners - in a cattle truck - from one camp to another. Amazingly, someone had a tin of fish. He ate some of it, knowing it was a fast day. He wrote that during all his years in the camps, somehow on each Feast of the Annunciation, a tin of fish appeared, perhaps sent in by someone. In this Lent alone, because he ate some fish on a fasting day, no fish appeared on that Feast of the Annunciation. The holy Bishop insisted that breaking the fast was a grave sin and no bishop or priest had the right to exempt a person from fasting.

For fillers, I have bread, potatoes, rice and a range of pasta available. There is a wide variety of fresh fruit and vegetables in my supermarket, some of it 'airfreighted for freshness'. There is seafood. There are dips: taramosalata and humous. And nuts and dates. I can cook my vegetables in a variety of ways. Lydia makes makes borsh soup. I can drink black coffee, choose from a range of fruit and herbal teas and from a variety of juices. There are biscuits which are 'fasting'. I sleep in a comfortable bed in a warm house. In an hour I will drive to my warm office and teach for a few hours.

I think of St Afanassi constantly. Here is no confessor of remote antiquity. He lived and suffered in my own lifetime. I know all that is said about fasting: 'true fasting', 'special circumstances', the 'imperative of love', and so on and so on. But I return to St Afanassii. And I think, when I'm tempted to deviate from the fast, just what kind of person am I? Is my weakness and spiritual poverty so great that with all that is available to me, I really can't manage just for 40 days? How can I think of this man and yet say, 'oh, it's too much. I can't manage 40 days like this. It's only legalistic anyway. It's the spirit that matters.' If - IF - I get to heaven, how can I then face him, and the great clouds of witnesses, confessors and martyrs, and say, 'I couldn't manage'?

I weep as I write.

[Nicolaj]

Dear Andreas!

Thank you for this great post. You are right! I already wrote this in another thread about fasting but I say it here again:

There we prayed that Adam was thrown out of paradise because of the sin! His sin was not to obey the ONLY Law God made him and his wife. And that was to FAST from the fruits of the tree!
And so I think it is important to fast without letting something out! It is also meant for the people we know as a sign: A SIGN OF OUR FAITH! We fast according to the Lord and he gives us the power to do so! And if you are offended by my fasting you should ask yourself what is wrong in your life, because sin makes you to be offended!
Sure I didn't fast long myself but I see clear that I was wrong and a SINNER!
I repent and weep and pray.

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Nicholas

But this doesn't answer any of the circumstances that are being raised.

It is not about whether YOU or I should give up the fast for a whim, but whether it is necessary sometimes to break the fast for love.

Are you married? Are you married to a non-Orthodox?

How would you handle the situation that you came home from work and your wife had cooked a fish dish, trying to provide fasting food but not being aware that Orthodox do not eat fish during the fast? Would you refuse to eat it and when your wife grew distressed would you say that there was somethinng wrong with her?

I don't find this solution to the situation in the Fathers. The Desert Fathers were among the greatest ascetics, yet they ate a little of whatever was put in front of them, and if it broke their fast then they returned to it more strenuously when they could.

This is not an excuse for my laxness, but it is a reason for acting in and out of love.

I know of one man who was given some meat to eat during the fast by his spiritual father who made him eat some of it even though it made him feel ill because his spiritual father needed to teach him that we cannot be proud of having attained any measure of fasting because fasting does not save us, only the grace and mercy of God.

For myself, and as my own opinion, if I have attained the full measure of fasting according to the canon set down by the Church and have left a trail of people disgusted by my pride and selfishness, then I have achieved nothing, worse than nothing, I have deceived myself.

If I have attained the full measure of the canon and have won others by being willing to bend a little, under the guidance and censure of my spiritual father, then I have perhaps begun a little to understand what the true fast is.

I respect your point of view entirely but I could not apply it to my own circumstances on every occasion without exception. It would hurt my wife and be liable to cause her to reject Orthodoxy as Phariseeism.

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

Dear Peter,

Has your wife read what I have shared about St Afanasii?

Generally, I'm not talking about pride and so on. I'm talking about being inspired to try a little bit to keep faith with someone who shames me even if I fast according to our rules.

In Christ,

Andreas.

[Nicolaj]

Dear Peter,

My circumstances of living is that my wife is from the Ukraine and spent half her life in a communist country and then was baptised. Our child is 19 months old.

I didn't write that post to offend you or anybody but to make clear that it can always be an mission at home to fast. My spiritual father said that it is important not only to fast from food, because therefore nobody will go to hell but more important is to fast from sin. And I know also the examples of the Fathers where their spiritual guides told them to eat this or that because it would strengthen their fasting from sin.
But it is to see that there are many opportunities in fasting. We can talk about it and give it in the dialogue more meaning for us and at the same occasion we can teach others about the orthodox way of doing things this way and not the other way. The priest in the church as being Christ doesn't condemn anybody who comes and tells him all he (I!) did wrong. I doesn't think I am doing anything right for I am the first among sinners! But I hope for the love of Lord. As the woman was brought before him who commited adultery he didn't throw a stone.

In Christ and awaiting his return,

Nicolaj

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Nicolaj

I am sure that we are not far apart and in actual fact we more or less agree.

Do pray for me as I will for you, that our experience of fasting will in all cases and places be acceptable to God and be for the salvation of our souls and those around us.

Wishing you much blessing at this time

Peter

[Herman Blaydoe]

The Greek word for sin means "to miss the mark", that is, the bullseye of the target. It is missing the target that is the sin, that is, not living up to what God has made us capable of. If "missing the mark" is the sin, then what about those things that contribute to or detract from our "marksmanship?

If the archer does not have the strength to pull the bow, because he neglected exercising his arm, is that a sin? If he did not maintain his arrows, let the feathers come loose or not place them properly, is this a sin? What if he does not regularly replace his bowstring and it snaps, is this a sin?

I think there is some room for interpretation and praxis here, depending on who the "coach" happens to be. The SIN is not fulfilling what God wants us to be. This coach says sloppy arrows are the sin. That coach says that the RESULT of shooting sloppy arrows, that is, not hitting your target, is the sin. Is one right and the other wrong? Are not the results the same, a missed target?

Seen in this light, is not fasting the sin? One coach says YES because he knows that without practice the archer cannot hit the bullseye. The other coach says, if you do not practice, when the time comes to hit the bullseye you will miss and that will be the sin. The Fathers have written reams of material on when sin "starts" and when it "stops", and it is not always entirely consistent. But different coaches have different styles and different emphasis and different views. But when it all comes down to it, if we do not fast, if we do not discipline ourselves, when temptation strikes and it is time to defeat the temptation, we will miss the target. Fasting is not the end, it is a means to the end, working in synergy with other means to achieve one goal, being all that Christ wants us to be. Unfulfilled potential is a sin, I suspect, remember the servants and the talents.

[Andreas Moran]

Herman wrote:


But when it all comes down to it, if we do not fast, if we do not discipline ourselves, when temptation strikes and it is time to defeat the temptation, we will miss the target. Fasting is not the end, it is a means to the end, working in synergy with other means to achieve one goal, being all that Christ wants us to be. Unfulfilled potential is a sin, I suspect, remember the servants and the talents.

This admirably sums it up - every word. We do not know what will happen in the future. Some C20th Russian elders said, if you do not learn how to fast, how will you manage in the times of tribulation? Apart from the times of tribulation Christ warns us of, any test or temptation is, as Herman suggests, a kind of time of tribulation. For what was the endurance of confessors like St Afanasii if I am not moved and inspired by him and his like? May I not be like those who scoffed at Noah? (And given the rain we've had here lately, I'm of to the DIY store for a few cubits of gopher wood!). Surely the confessors' example is of universal application because we all face the same threat?

[still haven't quite got the hang of this quoting thing - sorry!]

[Herman Blaydoe]

Why is it that the following is read at the beginning of Great and Holy Lent?:

Romans 14:1-4 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Anyone?

[Peter Farrington]

Dear Andreas

I think that you are confusing the forebearance on some occasion of an Orthodox Christian for some other, loving end, with not bothering to fast at all.

No-one has said that laziness is appropriate in any circumstances. But acting out of love is always appropriate.

I think that you are addressing the situation where someone is not very committed to fasting, but that is not what any contributors have suggested. No-one has said that we should not learn to fast, but the topic of this thread is to do with not fasting on some occasion because of the demand of love.

Are you saying that in every situation you would always and without fail insist on fasting, even if it were to become public, rather than ever choose to break your fast so as not to offend or hurt someone?

I don't think I could ever take my strictness to such an end.

But it is also the case that in neither situation would it be one in which fasting itself was being rejected, so I must consider that your posts stressing the value of fasting are entirely appropriate to an Orthodox Christian but do not address the situation of forebearing to fast on an occasion in love.

Peter

[Andreas Moran]

I don't know, Herman. But I don't think any of us is judging the others. I have deliberately written in relation to myself. I thought it was useful to see what one hopes is the most extreme situation imaginable as a yardstick, one end of the scale. But I recall that when St Seraphim of Sarov was asked about the future, he predicted the Russian Golgotha of the C20th and the renewal of the Church which he said would last a short time. Asked what would happen after that, he wept, shook his hands, turned away and couldn't speak.

[Peter Farrington]

Andreas

But don't you think that most extreme situation is not a good guide to behaviour in a more normal situation and certainly not universally.

How do you understand all of the passages from the Fathers which elevate love over personal spiritual practices when necessary, and without imputing sin to such situations?

I don't think it is wise to take just one or two examples and make them universal especially if they are contradicted by other examples. This is why we follow the advice of our spiritual fathers.

Peter

[Herman Blaydoe]

Surely the confessors' example is of universal application because we all face the same threat?

I think it depends on what you mean by universal application. Might we also look to, say, St. Gregory the Stylite for universal application? Therefore should we all climb up a pole and live there for years exposed to the elements? Certainly we should emulate his ZEAL and his conviction, in as much as we are able. We can appreciate his insights gained with much struggle and dedication. And if we are able, mayhaps we too may ascend our own spiritual towers in whatever form they take.

When we look to "universal application" may we universally look to our own bishops and priests for guidance in our application.

It might be worth mentioning that often when the Fathers "bowed to love", they would make up for it in other ways secretly. If the monastic broke the fast for his guests, he would often keep it all the more strictly later when their guests left. But each according to his or her ability. Trying too hard can be harmful. One should not attempt to benchpress 400 lbs the first time, but that doesn't mean it is not a good goal to work towards, IF that meets one's ultimate goal. For the earthly athlete works to win an earthly crown and we work to win an heavenly crown, according to the Apostle Paul. Should we not simply run the spiritual course of the Fast with our eyes on the prize, and do whatever seems appropriate from that standpoint?
DISCLAIMER
The ideas expressed here may or may not reflect the opinion of the poster. Text may contain material some readers may find objectionable, spiritual guidance is advised. The drinking of beverages while reading these posts is strongly discouraged; not responsible for damage, discomfort, or staining caused by spit-takes or "nosers." Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, use of satire, or failure to suit your particular sense of humor (or lack thereof). Some shifting of context may have occurred during shipment. For external use only. Void where prohibited. Not legal in all spiritual states. Consult a licensed and reputable spiritual advisor before applying. For recreational use only. May exceed the maximum recommended daily dose of irony. If a rash, redness, irritation, or swelling develops, discontinue use. If condition persists, consult your spiritual physician. This notice applies to all posts by this poster whether or not it is included in the post and supercedes all previous disclaimers.

[John Charmley]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Elsewhere on this site I have posted this, but thought it worth putting here as a contribution to this discussion; it is from The Shepherd of Hermas

“What is this fasting,” he continued,
“which you are observing?” “As I have been accustomed, sir,” I reply, “so I
fast.” “You do not know,” he says, “how to fast unto the Lord: this
useless fasting which you observe to Him is of no value.” “Why, sir,” I
answered, “do you say this?” “I say to you,” he continued, “that the
fasting which you think you observe is not a fasting. But I will teach you
what is a full and acceptable fasting to the Lord. Listen,” he continued:
“God does not desire such an empty fasting. For fasting to God in this
way you will do nothing for a righteous life; but offer to God a fasting of
the following kind: Do no evil in your life, and serve the Lord with a pure
heart: keep His commandments, walking in His precepts, and let no evil
desire arise in your heart; and believe in God. If you do these things, and
fear Him, and abstain from every evil thing, you will live unto God; and if
you do these things, you will keep a great fast, and one acceptable before
God."
This, is, I hope, worth thinking about in the context of this thread.

Sometimes we almost seem to go past each other - for I have not found here anyone saying we should not keep the fast according to the advice of our spiritual Father, or that we should not fast. We are told in 1 Corinthians 13:13 ' And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.' My understanding of what is being written here is that sometimes, out of love and respect for the sacrifices made by others, we swallow our pride (and perhaps a few other things). Those who feel that is wrong will so feel; but for me, judgement is more problematic, and I respect the sacrifice made by love - even as I do the zeal and asceticism of those whose spiritual development goes way beyond mine; you all give me something to strive towards.

Now for supper!

In Christ,

John

[Mary]

Andreas, thank you for posting the story of St Afanasii! It has convicted me of being too easy on myself! I hope one day I will be faithful as he was faithful.

I see a difference though, between his tormentors offering him meat, and friends and family offering us meat out of ignorance & love. The former, do so in order to test you, and they're hoping to bend and break you - similar to all those martyrs who were asked to deny Christ and offer sacrifices to idols in exchange for their lives - so it is right to not give in - not even a little.

Like others have noted, fasting is something to be done in secret. Is it right to draw attention to our fasting, even among family and friends? If they serve us non-fasting food, it's not because they're testing us or hope to tempt us... perhaps they forgot we're fasting! After all, they're not responsible for keeping track of our fasting days...

In Ethiopia, butter is a luxury. To honor their guests, they put butter in the coffee. Suppose you were offered buttery coffee on a fasting day - would it be right to offend your hosts by turning down their gift to you? Surely, the person and his gift, however unacceptable, or undesireable, is more important than what goes into my mouth?

ON the other hand, if it's a family member or friend who already knows I'm fasting and still doesn't care or take it seriously, then it would be ok to refuse - as long as I know how to do it in love. If I'm feeling resentful that they aren't taking me seriously and respecting my days of fasting, it may be better for me to eat what is offered and go repent of my resentments and my grumbling.

Just my thoughts. Herman, may I borrow your disclaimer? I love it! =)

Mary.

[Rick H.]

Herman, may I borrow your disclaimer? I love it! =)

Mary.



Sorry Mary,

I have dibbs on Herman's disclaimer when he is finished with it :)

Rick

[Mary]

Sorry Mary,

I have dibbs on Herman's disclaimer when he is finished with it :)

Rick

Hey, that's not fair. I want some nice things too! And dont' forget - Ladies first!

Mary.

[Rick H.]

Okay Mary, 'you are of course right!' And, since I was a homeschooling parent too, until my girls started college two years ago, I know what you are going through--you deserve it--it's yours. :)

[Mary]

Okay Mary, 'you are of course right!' And, since I was a homeschooling parent too, until my girls started college two years ago, I know what you are going through--you deserve it--it's yours. :)

You're so kind! I fully agree that I'm right all the time! =)

Except, I really should go change my profile. I'm only half homeschooling now. My son's in school, and I'm only 'homeschooling' my daughter. I turned out to be incapable of keeping up with the demands of homeschooling. Did you homeschool your girls from K-12?

Mary

Oops - now this is really off topic, isn't it?! Sorry.

[John Charmley]

Dear Mary, Dear Rick,

I wonder if this last exchange is as off topic as Mary suggests? Sounds like you could both be (secretly) fasting intensely - fancy wanting Herman's disclaimer - and he's not even said its up for grabs; it is NOT edible.

INXC

John

[Mary]

Dear Mary, Dear Rick,

I wonder if this last exchange is as off topic as Mary suggests? Sounds like you could both be (secretly) fasting intensely - fancy wanting Herman's disclaimer - and he's not even said its up for grabs; it is NOT edible.

INXC

John

LOL!

Well - this is your first Lent as an Orthodox too. You must be fasting just as hard as you accuse us of doing. If I recall correctly, you drooling over Herman's disclaimer yourself, on the "Quo Vadis" thread.

And - how can something as delightful as his disclaimer, not be edible?! I mean, we sing "Taste and see that the Lord is good..." - as Orthodox, pretty much anything is edible! =)

You are right though, that he hasn't said it's up for grabs yet. Perhaps he'll drop it somewhere unknowingly, and I can steal it...

Mary.

[Maria Murray]

Thank you for all the discussion in this enlightening thread. I doubt my limited-minded opinion is worthy of much here, but I'll share it nevertheless. Personally, it was much easier to fast when I first started and was very strict and legalistic about it - just follow the plain and simple rule. Then when I read about the breaking the fast for love in a book about confession, I felt greatly ashamed and convicted, childish and immature in my Phariseeism. We can't be "all set" by following a rule without giving consideration to other commandments. Especially after discussing this with the priest, I feel this is much more complicated than just following the food rule, for we must at all times consider the others. It's very difficult, much more difficult. This involves our whole being at every hour of every day. Hopefully, with God's grace, I can learn and grow in the future.

[Mary]

Ok - I have just bumped into the other side of the same problem.

What to serve your guests who are NOT fasting?

I got a call from friends whom I haven't seen for almost 5 years. They'll be spending two days with us. They're not orthodox, and we weren't the last time we were together.

So then, do I cook lenten meals and have some meat on the side? That will surely kill me, to cook it and not taste it... (ok. so I won't literally die, but I might eventually from the dehydration caused by drooling...)

I'm not the greatest cook, and since Lenten cooking is totally new to me, that's my greatest weakness. Chances are, they won't mind what I serve them, since I did tell them, if they dont' give me sufficient warning, all I'd serve them is bread and water. Could you believe, they're so desparate to be with us again that they said they'd still come?! =)

One more thing, we've been to their house before but this is going to be the absolute first time that they're going to be at ours! My mom would have a heart attack if I tell her I served my guests vegetables and bread! =) (I suppose I don't have to tell her).

In Christ,
Mary.

(I say, shouldn't we be thinking less about food during fasting? It seems I'm thinking more about food than ever before!)

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Ok - I have just bumped into the other side of the same problem.

What to serve your guests who are NOT fasting?

I got a call from friends whom I haven't seen for almost 5 years. They'll be spending two days with us. They're not orthodox, and we weren't the last time we were together.

So then, do I cook lenten meals and have some meat on the side? That will surely kill me, to cook it and not taste it... (ok. so I won't literally die, but I might eventually from the dehydration caused by drooling...)

I'm not the greatest cook, and since Lenten cooking is totally new to me, that's my greatest weakness. Chances are, they won't mind what I serve them, since I did tell them, if they dont' give me sufficient warning, all I'd serve them is bread and water. Could you believe, they're so desparate to be with us again that they said they'd still come?! =)

One more thing, we've been to their house before but this is going to be the absolute first time that they're going to be at ours! My mom would have a heart attack if I tell her I served my guests vegetables and bread! =) (I suppose I don't have to tell her).

In Christ,
Mary.

(I say, shouldn't we be thinking less about food during fasting? It seems I'm thinking more about food than ever before!)


I'm going to go out on a limb here but I think it's important when we have guests during Lent to serve, to use the catch all phrase, something nice. That is we have to find the place in between something like bread and water & something decadent like fresh caught lobster smothered in melted margarine & garlic: ie something nice.

A good source of advice for nice Lenten dishes would probably be the ladies in your parish.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Nina]

Dear Mary,

As Father Raphael advised serve something nice.

Also tofu, or tempeh is a very nice substitution for dishes that traditionally have meat, eggs etc.

Someone told me, that when he opened his lunch container with potatoes and tofu -a dish as simple as that- all his colleagues gathered around commenting on how good it smelled and looked; and were asking for the recipe.

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Mary,


I'm not the greatest cook, and since Lenten cooking is totally new to me, that's my greatest weakness. Chances are, they won't mind what I serve them, since I did tell them, if they dont' give me sufficient warning, all I'd serve them is bread and water. Could you believe, they're so desparate to be with us again that they said they'd still come?! =)


I think you answered your own question. I know you will want to "treat" them and cook special "stuff". You can and still not break your fast. I make a mean 5 can casserole. I will be happy to give you the recipe if you like. It is 100% Lenten. It take about as long to cook as it does to open the 5 cans of vegetables. Oops, there goes my secret family recipe.

Paul

[Paul Cowan]

Being the food lover I am, I hate to go back to talking about sin, but I have been mulling something over in my mind the last few days hoping it might be of use to some one (probably just me).

Herman wrote:


The Greek word for sin means "to miss the mark", that is, the bullseye of the target. It is missing the target that is the sin, that is, not living up to what God has made us capable of. If "missing the mark" is the sin, then what about those things that contribute to or detract from our "marksmanship?

Perhaps I am just projecting onto others but I felt the language was hard for some to swallow within this thread. I say this from a recovering protestant viewpoint.

To say to some one, "you are sinning", or "you are a sinner", brings up all kinds of negative connotations. But to say to someone "you are missing the mark" or "you are a misser of the mark", is more palatable, for westerners at least.

I am not saying this to lighten or ease the responsibility of sin or to miss the mark, but if the connotation is always negative within the mindset of an individual during a discussion, I can see where they will always be defensive and not "hear" what is being said. (I say this about myself and in no way am reflecting onto other posters).

Monastics have a higher water mark to attain than the rest of us. But we are all called to strive for the higher water mark. If to break the fast is to sin, perhaps rather to break the fast is to miss the mark so that our spiritual fathers have more room to help us grow into the best Christians we can be in relation to our needed personal economia?

Anyway, I hope someone can get benefit from this point of view provided I am not off base and deluding myself. Thank you for your patience with me.

Paul

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Just a note to say that I've created a new thread to contain Lenten recipes, Great Lent > Lenten Recipes (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3593),and moved all the relevant messages from this thread to that. This will allow us to keep the present thread on focus, whilst also continuing to receive more suggestions for Lenten food (which have been very helpful).

INXC, Matthew

[John Charmley]

To say to some one, "you are sinning", or "you are a sinner", brings up all kinds of negative connotations. But to say to someone "you are missing the mark" or "you are a misser of the mark", is more palatable, for westerners at least.

I am not saying this to lighten or ease the responsibility of sin or to miss the mark, but if the connotation is always negative within the mindset of an individual during a discussion, I can see where they will always be defensive and not "hear" what is being said. (I say this about myself and in no way am reflecting onto other posters).


Dear Paul,

You make an interesting point, which I am mildly surprised no one has taken further; perhaps we are all too busy cooking those recipes in the other thread!

I note the culinary language in terms of the word 'palatable', but wonder whether here we in the west just have to swallow the fact, unpalatable as it is, that we are sinners. Still, since it was to save sinners that He came, we should be able to identify ourselves with that part of it, I hope.

Still, your point is one others have made to me, and I do wonder whether, especially with the emphasis in the media upon sexual behaviour and Christianity, we always get across to others what we mean by 'sin'. I have always found the Orthodox understanding more helpful than the one with which I was brought up, which was a more judicial version.

In Christ,

John

[Paul Cowan]

John:

I agree the word "sin" is the proper word to use. I also know being a western convert the word "SIN" has been rammed down our throats from denominational churchs that most everyone will drawback from the word itself if not the actions that produced the word.

From learning about a God that is waiting with a baseball bat to clobber me over the head if I step out of line to understanding a God of love and forgiveness to the nth degree, I still struggle with knowing I am truly forgiven after confession and not fearing the second judgement. (or my ninth inning) ;)

God help me believe You!

In the American Orthodox thread, we were talking about bringing Orthodoxy to other countries in their language. It's not just the language we have to overcome but the cultural ideocyncricies (sp). What the word Trinity means to a Mormon is NOT what it means to an Orthodox. So to help people understand what the word "sin" means is to understand their definition of it first.

Baby steps + baby food = a well rounded adult convert.

In love,

Paul

[John Charmley]

Dear Paul,

It is an interesting topic, not least, as you say, because of the way in which many of us in the West have had the word 'sin' used to us in the past.

But I guess one has to remember that if we have have been made uncomfortable by it, that may also be because of our prideful reluctance to accept that we are sinners, even if it may also have been because of the way in which it was used.

The 'Trinity' is, of course, a concept which has caused many problems, and is one of the reasons why Muslims, who conspicuously fail to try to understand it very often think we are not monotheists. And yet, all those years ago, St. Patrick explained it to Irish children with the shamrock.

It all helps show why Our Lord Himself used parables: 1 Corinthians 13:11-12:

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

1 Corinthians 13:13 also seems to the point here.

Many thanks for your post.

In Christ,

John

[Herman Blaydoe]

If we say that we are "sinners", we can also say that we are archers with very poor aim. Lent, in particular, allows us a specific time to concentrate on improving our aim so that we hit the mark more often. The more effort we put into hitting the mark, the less we "sin", yes?

Is being a poor archer a negative thing? If you are not interested in archery, I guess it is no big deal. But if you are trying to defend yourself against an attacking enemy and have no skill with your weapon, it can be a very negative thing indeed.

Simple thoughts from a simple mind.

DISCLAIMER
The ideas expressed here may or may not reflect the opinion of the poster. Text may contain material some readers may find objectionable, spiritual guidance is advised. The drinking of beverages while reading these posts is strongly discouraged; not responsible for damage, discomfort, or staining caused by spit-takes or "nosers." Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, use of satire, or failure to suit your particular sense of humor (or lack thereof). Some shifting of context may have occurred during shipment. For external use only. Void where prohibited. Not legal in all spiritual states. Consult a licensed and reputable spiritual advisor before applying. For recreational use only. May exceed the maximum recommended daily dose of irony. If a rash, redness, irritation, or swelling develops, discontinue use. If condition persists, consult your spiritual physician. This notice applies to all posts by this poster whether or not it is included in the post and supercedes all previous disclaimers.

[John Charmley]

If we say that we are "sinners", we can also say that we are archers with very poor aim. Lent, in particular, allows us a specific time to concentrate on improving our aim so that we hit the mark more often. The more effort we put into hitting the mark, the less we "sin", yes?

Is being a poor archer a negative thing? If you are not interested in archery, I guess it is no big deal. But if you are trying to defend yourself against an attacking enemy and have no skill with your weapon, it can be a very negative thing indeed.

Simple thoughts from a simple mind.


Dear Herman,

If you keep this standard up you are going to have grave difficulty convincing us of your simplicity!

I, for one, am very grateful for your thought here - as elsewhere.

In Christ,

John

[Archbishop Lazar]

One of the pimary gifts of maintaining the fast of the Church is the training in self-discipline and self-control that it gives us. If children learn this early in life, it might be easier for them to fast from smoking and drugs when they reach secondary school. By the way, a Serbian cardiologist told us a few years ago that if everyone in Canada were to keep the Orthodox fasts diligently, we could cut cancer by 50% and heart disease by 75%. In reality, the primary "eleminated elements" when we fast are fats and cholesterol. We might also remember that the holy prophet said, "let the four fasts of the year be joy and gladness to Israel."