Fasting before receiving Antidoron

[Mary Stavroula Ward]

Hello to Forum members,

Under another thread and topic, someone stated that before receiving Antidoron, Orthodox must fast because it "in place of the Eucharist." Also, that non-Orthodox should not receive it. I am interested to know what jurisdiction has this requirement.

It seems to me that if the antidoron is "in place of" the Eucharist, then it is not "equated to the Eucharist." The Antidoron is blessed bread, but it is not consecrated. To put it on an equal level with the Eucharist by requiring fasting is in a sense, minimizing the sacral nature of the Eucharist. In my experience in OCA and Greek Orthodox churches, fasting to receive Antidoron is not required, and it is offered to non-Orthodox.

In Christ,
Stavroula

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Mary,

I do not know which is the exact post you are referring to however I think it is proper if you follow the discipline of the parish & jurisdiction you are in.

There are in fact different practices concerning the non-Orthodox receiving Antidoron but to my knowledge it is never seen "on an equal level with the Eucharist" even by those who restrict its distribution to the Orthodox.

The first time I saw fasting before receiving the Antidoron (but without receiving the Eucharist) was on the Holy Mt where I was told it was a popular pious custom throughout Greece. Again this is not to place the Antidoron on the level of the Eucharist but rather as a suitable way of bringing oneself to Christ's Holy Church. On days I did not receive the Holy Mysteries I followed this discipline and I discovered that attending the Church without a full stomach does make a real difference. Also I could perhaps point out as parish priest that here in the West in parishes where the Mysteries are not often received one often sees that our people now regularly eat breakfast before coming to Church which I would say does affect one's spiritual attentiveness & concentration. Also one suspects where breakfast has become a habit, preparing oneself properly to receive the Eucharist is at times put off simply to avoid having to give up breakfeast! So I wish our people would practice fasting when attending Liturgy whether they plan to receive the Mysteries or not. If I could also add- it also seems very good to consider not eating before attending Vespers or Vigil if possible but rather to eat afterwards.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Averky]

Dear All,

It always saddens me when people almost seem to desire to not do that which is fitting and pious! St. John of San Francisco was very firm in stating, correctly, and as Mary says that "Antidor" means "in place of the gifts," This is not to say that it is to be equated with the Divine Gifts, but that it is given to those who were not able to recieve that day, so they too should fast in order to recieve the Antidor worthily.

We have been doing so many things in a haphazard way and for such a long time in this country, that we have indeed developed an "Anything goes" attitude when it comes to disciplines of the Orthodox Church. For ijstancd, those who recive communion shoulkd not coje up and kiss the cross and take anticoron aftdr Ligurgy, but thd Aftedr Communion prayers should be read by someone, and then at thd end, those who recieved coje up and kiss the cross and reciev Anftidor. Alas, we do not usually keep this practice, and it really makes sense, Instead, people who just recieved, either go home or go to the hall for a cup of coffee. I am not saying that it is wrong, I just think it would be a nice way to end the Liturgy in a prayerful manner, keeping mind that we had consumned the Body and Blood of Christ. The clerfy ay their prayers, and it is nice when such prayers are shared by the community. And it is the sense of community which means so much to me. I have the joy and comfort of living in a commujnity in which this is our practice.

Before the calendar was changed in the last century, tragically dividing the Church into two sharply contrasting groups, all pious actions were shared by all Orthodox countries, Fasting before recieving Antidor was not just a popular pious custom among the Greeks, but was the common practice , and was expected of Orthodox Christians.

What I find so painful, is that expressing their freedoms and rights, local parishes seem to set their own "policiies" in regards to such matters, as if what the Church has done for centuries has no bearing at all. Of courxe, I understand that each parish has its own situations.

As to what people do, well, that is their choice, but I never cease to be amazed at the expression of "American" Orthodoxy, which seems to be based on the freedom to adapt to what is considered to be OK rather than striving to be educated in the ways of Orthodox piety, which gives us a spiritual link with all those who have gone before us, leaving for us those practices of many centuries, and we should ask ourselves, "Why should we want to make changes? Why should we attempt to make our struggles "easier?" We should desire tostrruggle and grow in strength from that struggle. People spend hours at the gym, toning their bodies, eating special diet food, low in carbs or whatever, watching their weight-well, they can make full prostrations, keep the fasts, and maintain the disciplines of the Church just as well, and the goal is of a grreater value than having "great abs." (Whatever that means).

All of Christianity faces terrible times ahead, and if we cannot strengthen ourselves by being attentive to the "little things, " then how will we fare when the time of real Tribulation comes? The Wall, which is our faith, is built slowly, brick by brick, placed with care so that they will have stability and strength, Those bricks are our life of piety, our prayers, and our fasting and observing the centuries old forms of the Church, dismissing them as a quaint relic of the past and no longer need to be observed in our Modern times when we are so very busy, and just too stressed to make the effort.

It really bothers me that non-Orthodox are encouraged to take Antidor, when indeed it is for those who are part of the Church and who have prepared themselves by fasting before Liturgy. We think that "It's not "nice" to not permit a visitor to receive that which is intended for the faithful. I remember that when I was not permitted to recieve Antidor at the cathedral in San Franciso, I was not insulted, but longed even more to embrace the Faith. If we Orthodox readily give away that which for us is holy and which needs to be respected, understood and then accepted by a longing heart, then it will never be understood properly. by a new convert, for he was given it with not having to wait with mthe longing of sincere desire. I am not beding unkind here, but saying that anything worth attaining is worth waiting for and working towards, for then we have accopmplised by our effortthat which we saw to be of value. What value is there when it is just handed to us?

As Father Raphael wisely says, it even seems strange to get up, eat a full breakfast, and then go to the Mystical Banquet of the Lord, as if His Divine giffs were something we could take or leave.

I fear sometimes that we Orthdox Chrsitians, especially here in the US, do not "live" our Orthodoxy enough, but while going through the motions, we still remain our casual selves. It is in theis that we sometimes fail in our attempts to attain an Orthodox Ethos. The Praxis we can learn, but going deeper and adopting the Mindset is the problem.

I recently read a very interesting article about food and its place in national cultures. It was written by the woman who was one of the founders of Americas madness for "Cookoffs." She said that she had studied many cultures, and that from ancient trimes, food was something that was nurturing and loving, that people expressed their love and care for others by feeding them, ( Just as our Saviour showed us His love by leaving His Divine banquert tro nurture us). She went on to mention how many people readily took in weary stranger, gave them a hot meal and some straw to sleep in and then sent them on their way.

All happy occasions are marked by eating, as are times of grief and the need for support. Now, my point in all of this is that she had observed after almost forty years, that while most of the peoples of the world see eating as a show of love, and also as a matter of pride in a national cuisine, Americans are the only people she observed who cook and eat, and prepare new dishes to HAVE FUN, Americans want to have fun in everything they do, and she went on to say that that is why we have never developed any really good dishes, but want to mak things which and quick easy and efun, like pizza and fried foods. Health or evne nourishment is rarely a consideration.What is of concern, is how people handle a situation when it is not fun, and so they try to figure out a way that if it is not fun, then at least matters should not be difficult or inconvenient, and this is very bad when that attitude os moved knto the Christian life. I must say that I hae obvserved an amazikng amoung of spiritual growth in Orthodox Churches in thiscountry, and tht is very heartening. the younger generatioin priests tend to be more traditional, conservative and pious, and one sees them in Rasso and Kamilavka, rather than the shaven face, short hair and Roman collar and black suit of years ago.Those of us who always did so ae enjoying a new sense of kindredship with fellow Orthodox priests.

To finish my diatribe, I am concerned that all too often we Americans bring that same attitude even to our religious expression. Whereas Weddings an Baptisms were a beautiful and solemn affair, now they are marked by the telling of jokes, loud laughter and applause and ballooms and confetti.

Forgive me for going on, but the Last Days are moving up on us quickly ( not tomorrow, Owen), and the more seriously we approach God in His Temple, the more we will be able to face what is coming. All we have ro do is look at what is going on in the world: Christianity is more and more being limited in its expressiin. while the Muslims are working to achieve their dream of Islam as the faifh of the whole world. I remember that as early as the seventies, a Muslim Imam said, "We will in time conquer America, not with armies. tanks, and missiles, but with Islam. It is our plan that America will be ours!"

Forgive me, Father Raphael, Mary, and beloved members. Living in the half-seclusion of my monastery, away from the world in which you live, I see a different reality, and I simply am urging all of you to be strict and firm in your Orthodxy, willing to make just that little sacrifice for the sake of Christ, and as we remember and honor Him, so He will remember us to His Father. It was not my intention to judge, or condemn, for I have been reflecting about all of this in regards to myself lately, for I tend also to br Lazy and to forgive myself from struggling because I am "sick." no, I am just slothful. But still, I firmly believe that when we can "do it right," then why not ?" I can assure you that if a person does these small things such as waiting until after liturgy to eat they will find that their Christian life will flow much more smoothly, Every day we have many opportunities to make small sacrifices for our salvation's sake. They might not be "fun," but they certainly are salvific.
At any rate, as it is, each parish does indeed have its wn way of doing things, and as long as priest and parish are are all on the path to salvatiion together, then that is what matters. God bless us all.

Fr. A.

[Melissa]

Father bless,

Father Averky, I believe you have placed before us the crux of the matter of faith as it faces us today - and perhaps this has always been true -
All of Christianity faces terrible times ahead, and if we cannot strengthen ourselves by being attentive to the "little things, then how will we fare when the time of real Tribulation comes? The Wall, which is our faith, is built slowly, brick by brick, placed with care so that they will have stability and strength, Those bricks are our life of piety, our prayers, and our fasting and observing the centuries old forms of the Church,[not] dismissing them as a quaint relic of the past and no longer need to be observed in our Modern times when we are so very busy, and just too stressed to make the effort.

I for one need constant reminders of this, as I almost automatically search for ways to make my life easier. I know I need the structure of the Church, and the more obvious that structure is, the better, even if in my pride I don't always "like it". My "liking it" isn't the point!I find Orthodoxy to be very clear, when I'm willing to listen to the Saints, Early Church Fathers, and those representing traditional Orthodoxy today.

Thank you for your kind, wise words.

In Christ,
Melissa

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky,

Thank you for your words. I am presently reading the (newly revised) book, Fr Seraphim Rose: His Life & Works which also makes these same points powerfully & prophetically. I agree that in our times one of our chief temptations is to make our church life conform to the fallen standards of this world. As you point out to fall into this robs us of that grace to properly respond to the brokeness of this world. You also point to the more general 'meeting of hearts & minds' in Orthodoxy than existed in the past; and this is also based on a more serious effort to follow our Holy Frs & Tradition.

If I could add the following: to follow Christ faithfully as our Church sees it is a responsability of love- 1)because only through this will the rifts in our Church be healed, and 2)only through this will healing be offered to the world. In other words healing can only come from our ascetic lives of self-sacrifice for & in Christ. (Someone recently posted about Christ as Healer).

May we also like dead Lazarus find that cure from the only disease the Church wishes to cure- sin & death.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Joshua Greve]

Wow, I have never even thought of the Antidoron as something taken "in place of" the Eucharist and therefore not given to non-Orthodox or taken without having fasted. I really have to think about this and give it more consideration, which I will do. Thank you all for even bringing up this conversation.

One question for Father A.

Father, what did you mean by:
"I can assure you that if a person does these small things such as waiting until after liturgy to eat they will find that their Christian life will flow much more smoothly..."

What do you mean by after Liturgy? I mean, I've never seen anyone eat a donut before liturgy was over, so I am guessing you didn't mean that. Did you mean the Antidoron? Are we supposed to wait until after Liturgy to eat that? It seems to me that I've seen many very pious nuns at a monastery (from Romanian, not American) eat this after recieving the Eucharist. So I guess I just need clarification. Thank you very much,

In Christ,

Joshua

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ, Melissa,

Thank you and bless you for understanding my plea. I would further say that the crux of the problem i have noted, and may those I might offend, forgive me, as long as hierarchs and pastors do not enforce the "little things," and parishoners assure the newly converted that small disciplines are by local choice, or done only by "tradtionalist fanatics, " and if every new visitor or a person even slightly interested in Orthodoxy is admitted freely to that wiich they would treasure all the more if they were asked to be patient, then in time, the value of our Orthodoxy will lose its precious sheen,watered down by our casual and free society. Someone asked where to get a baptismal robe, because in his parish, they have a common white bath robe. Read the beautiful sermon of St. John Chrysostom as he addresses the newly baptized on Holy Saturday. He says something like: Look at your robes, how white and pure they are, think of how they represent your souls newly washed by the waters of Baptism-keep your souls like them, never let your souls be tarnished by frightful sin!" Later, many people would take their robes with them on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. bathe in the River Jordan, and then be buried in those robes. To this day, Russian pilgrimages do the same thing. I had mine, and joyfully wore it when I was tonsured- my white robe, worn so many years ago at the death to the old man was again worn when I received the second Baptism of the monastic tonsure, and I rose with a new name in Christ. Sadly, at some time it was lost, for I had pklanned to be buried in it.

The real tradition (which we do here) is that the newly illumined wear ther robe in church and to the trapeza for three days. At Divine Liurgy, they are lovingly ushered to receive the Divine mysteries first, and after, people come and kiss them congratulate them as being new members of Christ's body and ask for their holy prayers. Why deprive people of these things? It seems like we are in a rush-"here, let's chrismate, them after all, they really are Christians already. " I would not give up for one minute give up the joy of my triple immersion. Years ago, we Baptized one of the first Russian to come to the US in the mid-70's A young Jewish man, he so sweetly and solemnly reciited the creed three times and meekly stepped into the water, as he came up the third timd, it so happened that a stream of gold sunlight came through the window and illuminated his golden hair and joyous face, For few secons we we are so strunned and moved that we forgt to chant the Psalm.

Absolutely in no way do I or ever would I say that chrismation is not enough or efficacious; I only say that when we do the fullness there is a completley different feeling. So too in all the "little bricks," that we seem to be casting aside, or even worse, forgetting. I find where such parctises are common, newly converted bring far too much of their old religious and spiritual baggage with them having gotten the feeling that it is not realy that necessary to give them up. And the rate of such people in time leaving seems to be greater as well.Years ago already, agood friend of mine attend a veryh well-seminary in this country, and we still keep in touch. In his senior year, a group fo former episcoplaians entered, and many of them would only venerate icon of Christ, not those of the Theotokos and the saints and flatly refused to venrate the relics.Seeing this, my friend told them that if they would not do this, then they could not consider themselves to be Orthodox. The next day, he was called in and told, "They are every bit as Orthodox as you-so keep your mouth shut!" He was ordained by another Archishop the next year who in time himself removed all of his seminarians from the same school.

Years later, in the mid-90's a very pious priest of the Greek Archdiocese went on a pilgrimage of peole from the same Church mentioned to Russia and its holy sites, whose priest had graduated from that school. When they were at St. Seregius-Holy Monastery, when they were ushered into the room where the reliquary of St, /Sergius are kept, the priest had memorized the Tropar and Kontakion to the saint, approach, made prostrations to the earth twice, kissed the relics, stepped back, and prostrated again ( Which from ancient times has been Orthodox practise), He told me that when he stood up and turned around, the people were backed up a bit. He asked them,"Are'nt you going to venerate the holy relics of one of Russia's greatest monastic saints, and important Church Father of your own distant heritage?" He said that most of the people. and alas, the priest, looked nervous or even a little horrified, ( "Eww, kiss bones of some dead person?) so for the rest of the trip, he would go to revere relics and in many cases, famous holy icons by himself. He further stated that on the way home, the people remembered more the museums and historic sites they had seen than any of the holy ones, except to comment on how big they were.

And what can we say? We cannot "blame" the parishioners' they simply had never been taught! They had lost such pious acts over many years and even though they were indeed good and faithful Orthodox Christians, they had been deprived of the blessing of pious actions, the little things, and they had no bricks and no mortar. They were like the Virgins in the Gospel, but even worse, they had been deprived of oil.

Until rather reecently, in many Orthodox churches in North Americq, generation after genration of children never attended liturgy, but went directly to Sunday school. One woman I know in her seventies sid to me, "When I was a little girl, Father said to all of our parents, "I do not want to see one of those kids until just before communion." So, for all of our young lives we never participated in the beauty of the liturgy, and Father, after there was no more Sujnday school, the majority of those children did not return as adults." Her parish in New Jersy, which once boasted 950 souls, is now down to twenty five...

Fortunately, there are recent signs of real spiritual growth, in all of Orthodoxy North America, and as the Orthodox Church becomes the Christian spiritual force of the 21st century as we, witness the death of Chrsitianity in the West, greater will be our individual responsibility to strengthen the walls of defense. As a Russian Orthodox Christian, I look with joy to what is going on in Russia, with churches opening, monasteries opening, seminaries filling and church life exploading, yet, it fills me with a deep fear and dread, for St. Seraphim of Sarov said that Russia would enjoy an amazing period of resurrection, and become a spiritual light to the whole world enrichening Holy Orthodxy as never before, becoming a great spiritual power for the entire Church, but-but this would be brief and after that the time of Antichrist would come rushing in.

As we know, the Fathers have said that nearer the end, time would begin to rush by so past, we would not have time to comprehend what was happening before new events would unfold.And is this not so?News event fgo by so quickly-tragedies, wars, crimes, everything which years ago would have cause a big sehsation for days or even weeks, no pass by so quickly that new events catch our attention a day or two, and then more, and more, Technology is improving so fast, we cannot possibly keep up buying every new improvemrnt, and soon, we are told we will all have hand-held communication devises, no more PCs.

I do not know about the rest of you, but in all my 35+ years as an Orthodox Christian, I have never , ever experienced a Great Lent that went by so quickly! It feels like that just as I was moving in to the disposition of the period or repentance, this week is Palm Sunday, and I think, "Where did Lent go?" Where did the time go? From this my beloved frends have come these reflections-we all must begin to prepare ourselves for the gathering storm, and we must do so with a life of prayer, repentance and PIETY.

How many lives of saints that we read start off with the words, "The holy saint _____ was born in a small village in___ to pious parents, Not necessarily rich parents, or educated parents, or well-know parents, and rarely to bad parents, but pious parents. From their childhood the saint were inspired to love God and desire to serve him by the very atmosphere in which they lived. While it is true that some monastic saints at first faced opposition from parents when tey expressed the desire to leave the world, so many times, the parents themsevles became monastics. It was in such a world where "The Way of the Pilgrim" makes sense, not in,our empty, spiritually starved and desparate world where people switch from aromatherapy to yoga to the Jesus Prayer like changing clothes.

Lent is now over, Holy week is upon us, and soon we will be filled with joy-but that joy must be tinged with seriousness and concern. We must, as St, Ignatii Briachaniniov says, "Bretheren, you must know Christ!' Let us struggle to know Christ, and let us pray for one another, Forgive me a sinner!

Sinful

hieromonk Averky

[Fr. David B. Sedor]

The very word "Antidoron" means, in Greek, "instead of" or "in place of the gifts". Also, by "after liturgy." I would assume Fr. Averky is referring to after consuming the antidoron. Certainly no one should be eating donuts before the dismissal and veneration of the Cross, and before the prayers of thanksgiving (if done in your parish).

Fr. Averky, please know that you are on my parish's prayer list, and please also pray for me (this goes for all of you on this wonderful list), as I'm going through some difficult times.

Thank you.

-- Fr. David

(Message edited by admin on 02 April, 2004)

[Melissa]

Dear Father David,
You will be in my prayers.
Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ
Joshua,

WOW! I take it that this is a new form of greeting?

My brother in Christ Father George is correct in telling you what I meant by my statement. Forgive me if my own words caused you confusion. Again:

The time-honored practise of the Orthodox Church is that any pious Orthodox Christian ought not take antidor (which as Fr. Geroge rightly points out does mean "instead of") if he has not fasted. Unfortunately, I also have to point out that either out of ignorance or lack of concern, or thinking it not important, this practise is not generally kept in North America, but one can hope...

If Orthodox Christians are not permitted to take the antidor, than all the more so those who are not yet joined to the Body of Christ, the Holy Orthodox Church absolutely should not be afforded that privilige either by permitting them, or even worse, inviting them to do so. The problem lies is that as usual, we in North America see our approach to participation in any organization new to us in terms of our having the "right" to act as if we already belong, and if we do belong, we feel that we have the "right" to warmly invite outsiders and new comers to also participate in order for them to feel "at home."

About 20 years ago, Sholzhenitsin, author of "The Gulag" made the statement while giving a talk at Harvard University that Westerners have become obsessed with the having and expressing their "rights," while they fail to see that so much of what they see as rights are in fact privileges.

This concept of "rights" has most certainly become very obvious in the typical convert's approach to Orthodoxy. Several months ago we had a thread in which we were discussing priorities in our relationship with God and the Church, and two of us spoke about the necessity of our obedience to God and His Church of being extremely important. A fellow convert member expressed your very same words, in that it was something that they would "have to think about." Yet, it is not a matter for our consideration at all, but is what the Church has taught and expressed, and it is not within our "rights" of which we basically have none to decide if we accept that or not. Nor, Joshua , do we have an "opinion" about most spiritual and ecclesiatical matters as taught by the Orthodox Church. Too often we forget that the Church is not a democracy, but a hierarchy based on the Law of God. That the good,and pious and required practise of not taking antidor if one has not fasted has sadly fallen into oblivion in this country through laxity in no means lessens its necessity, it just means that people who have been informed that it does exist, should put it in practise for their soul's sake, and I cannot imagine any good parish priest fordbidding someon from keeping to that practise. As I said in my inital post on this thread, it always surprizes me when it seems that otherwise very sincere people who are Orthodox would want to deprive themselves of even the smallest opportunities to express their faith and love for our Lord and His Church.

Could you imagine, for instance, a believing Moslem no longer bowing towards Mecca the for the required prayers every day just because he might now live in Western counbtry? When I lived in San Diego, I loved to have lunch at a tiny cafe run by a family from Aghanistan. Many times I found myself patiently waiting as which ever family male family member might be working that day put his prayer rug down onto the floor and began his prayers. I found that I felt real respect for these people who put their religion before anything else, while in this country, evil forces are attacking Christianity in every way and at every opportnity.

Therefore, my dear Joshua, do "think"- think every day about how you can live a God -fearing and God-pleasing life by doing the "little things" which will make the bricks into the strong wall of defense of which I have spoken. Your mortar will be your prayers and your tears. Have a joyful Pascha!

God's richest blessings be upon you!

Least among monks,
hieromonk Averky

[Fr Averky]

Dear Father Raphael,

Thank you for your further consideration of my poor words, and I certainly agree with you! A few months ago, we had a very lively thread entitled something like "ascetic podvig," and for those of us who have been grafted to the True Vine, as I have many times pointed out, just learning what the pious practises of the Church are and keeping them in our daily lives can be at times a real challenge in that we are too often tempted to see them as being rather low priority in our lives rather than seeing them as necessities for our salvation, and this at times can even include our morning and evening prayers! If we want to have a "podvig," then let us faithfully say all of our morning and night prayers, keep the fasts, do spiritual and scriptural reading every day, and honestly and humbly confess our sins and receive the Mysteries very often, to learn and keep the beautiful pious practises of the Church, and struggle with all our heart, mind and soul to love God and our neighbor as ourself, we will have a full and spiritually productive Christian life. If we do not do these things faithfully, then we cannot really consider ourselves to be good or even "average" Christians.

In Russia in the late nineteenth century, a German professor asked a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church, "Your Grace, if you could quickly bring to mind a person you know or of whom you know you could call an "average" Christian man, who would it be? Without hesitation, the bishop replied, "St. Tikhon of Zadonsk!"
(Told to a small group of us by Father Seraphim Rose in Platina in 1975]. Now, that is really something to "think" about!

In Christ,

hieromonk Averky

[Fr Averky]

My Dear Brother in Christ
Father David,

I take great comfort in the knowledge that you and those with you are keeping my unworthines in your good prayers. My operation will begin at about 2:15 p.m. EST on Holy Monday, and I am told I should see again by Wednesday.

Dear Father, may God lighten your burdens and lift your sorrows, and may the Most Most Pure Lady, the Mother of God send you her maternal and gentle comfort. Please be assured of my heart-felt prayers for you at this time. You do not post often, but I am always happy to see your name.

With love and prayers in Christ,

Unworthy
hieromonk Averky

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky,

To see St Tikhon of Zadonsk as the average Christian man. Yes & that shows how far we are from fulfilling what our Lord has asked of us- at least myself in any case.

What incredible love Christ has for us laying down His life for us even in our state of deathly sinfulness! A priest communicated to me last night after yesterday's Bridegroom Service-"I don't know how to love Him back."

Maybe that sums it up Father- to love Him back we must put ourselves to the struggle of understanding first what His love for us is & and what it means. We must be humble & honest enough to see that we know what none of this means until we are instructed by our Holy Fathers. Otherwise the danger is that our love is just egoism disguised.

Then slowly to come to a love for Him. And here also we must have the ability to say, "I don't know how." Incredibly however it is Christ Himself Who teaches us how to love Him! Who else does this without it being egoistic & (incredibly!) out of TOTAL selflessness? In other words Christ wants us to love Him because He knows that this will give US life. What amazing love!

This love however if it is to be real love must be humble- again it comes back to casting my self-reliance aside once & for all as a dirty & useless rag. How often have I been led astray and betrayed by my self-will & self-reliance! How many blind alleys & demon-infested paths have I been led on through self-will?
Thank God Christ puts spiritual fathers to ask counsel, to hear our confessions, but above all to humble our will. Thank God Christ puts so many writings of the Holy Fathers before us- again to humble our will. Thank God Christ allows us to reach our own Pascha through His.

In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

God be with you Father, especially in regards to your operation.

[Joshua Greve]

Fr. Averky,
I meant to post this following message in here and instead I accidentally posed it in Church History... I'm mixed up!
------------
Fr. Averky,

I do appreciate your response, but I suppose I should clarify why I feel it necessary to "think" about it. Just as you warn many to pay attention to the small (yet very important) details of Orthodox piety (which I appreciate), I would like to warn anyone here for accepting anything they learn from an Internet forum as fact or the end of the story. This board should be treated as a springboard for inquiry, not as Patristic text. While I do plan on taking the Antidoron more seriously now, I still want to look into this more and talk to others about it. Now, while I admit that this seems to be a pretty cut and dry issue (so far), there are other subjects which Orthodox tend to treat as shut-and-closed issues, which honestly aren't. To support their claims, they only mention the Fathers and certain traditions (small "t") that best support their arguments but ignore (often times unintentionally) the other perfectly legitimate Orthodox traditions because, to this person, this or that tradition just happened to be in "error". In other words, we all (religiously, politically, etc) have biases... all of us here... and these sometimes tinge our view of things. But, after considering (a word for which I do not apologize for using) the information I was given here by Fr. Averky and others, I plan to follow this piety unless I find information compelling me to think otherwise. I am perfectly willing to accept that this habit of allowing anyone to eat the Antidoron at any time is simply due to our overly-lax nature here in North America and should therefore be changed.

Father Averky, I have no doubts about your sincerity and I would not dare to give you advice on how to be a better Orthodox. This is not said to flatter you and offend your humility but rather to recognize the fact that you have lived Orthodoxy (and life for that matter) longer and surely more faithfully than I have. You are one of the people I read most here. I am not saying that I agree with everything you say (sometimes I just don't know enough to agree or disagree), but I do at least take everything you say into consideration. And that goes for most people here. That's the best I can offer you. Were you my Spiritual Father, it would be different.

Please do not assume that because I "think" about something means that I don't accept it. I do believe the Orthodox Church to be the True Church and I do not believe it would lead me astray, but sometimes what is Orthodox and what is tradition is not always one in the same... in fact they may be opposed to each other.

An example stands out in my mind. I remember learning that in Greece (probably around now since it is Holy Week) they have the "tradition" of beating a life-size doll of Judas and then burning it and cheering during this. I think this is done on Holy Saturday (don't quote me on that). I'm sorry, but that "tradition" makes me sick to my stomach. May God have mercy on our souls for such an example of hatred and judgment. Jesus chastises Peter for cutting off the ear of the Roman soldier, yet we can fanaticize about burning a man to death (I don’t care how sinful or blasphemous he was, that is not our place). If I am misunderstanding this tradition, please, inform me for I would like nothing more than to find out that what I thought existed in Orthodox pop culture never really existed except in my mind.

Another example is from Romania where it is tradition to only offer the Eucharist to children (for only they are "pure" enough). This is such an offensive practice and distorts the faithful's view on why the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ is given to us in the first place... for the forgiveness of sins. How can we read St. John Chrysostom’s Sermon on the one hand and then turn around and deny sinners their medicine… and on the Day in which we celebrate our freedom from sin? How can this be? Such a tradition should sadden us.

In America one of the few advantages to the over-analytical mind is that we can try and sift out what it bad tradition from good tradition. We have gone overboard on this to the point that we don’t respect it unless we understand it. This is a problem… so a balance is needed, and I believe that over generations we will find that balance (although not without the guidance and patience of the old countries).

I realize this post has turned into one giant tangent but while I'm at it I would just like for us to remember that it will naturally and necessarily take time for American Orthodoxy to find its nitch in the Orthodox family. People get frustrated with us (sometimes rightly so, other times for more neo-phobic reasons) for our "innovations" and points of view so easily. While it is important to criticize, American Orthodox are still Orthodox. Converts to Orthodoxy are still Orthodox and we deserve a certain degree of respect (not necessarily honor, by any means) (I would like to point out that I am not just talking about converts, I am talking about Orthodoxy in general in North America). Along with respect, however, we need patience. Sometimes I think that Russians (or Greeks or Middle Easterners) expect us to be just like them. That will never happen. We are American and that will always be so. It is not an issue of pride, but rather one of logic. This is not to say that Americans shouldn't try their hardest to follow their Mother Country's example (be that Russia or Greece or whomever) but that not everything from the old country can be practiced here... just like not everything that is practiced here will be practical in the old country. We are different and that is not bad. Diversity has always been a part of the Church. I am not saying that American Orthodoxy doesn't deserve criticism for its “innovations” (i.e. the Antidoron issue... there! I tied in the tangent lol) but perhaps some of these innovations are just necessary adaptations to American culture that aren’t good or bad… just necessary.

(Josh steps down from his star-spangled soap box)
Thank you very much for listening to my rambling. In the end, Fr. Averky, I honestly respect the things you have to say. Your point on the "mortar" (that you've made in earlier postings) has especially made me think hard over the last couple weeks. Thank you.

May God grant all of you a blessed Holy Week.

Joshua

[Caryn Fay Irina Boyd]

Dearest Fathers and List Members,

Christ is Risen!

Where there is true faith there is no need for intellectual knowledge.

The Pious and humble trust their Spiritual Fathers wisdom and are guided by his words.

If children can and do fast from food and liquid to take communion - how is there any excuse for an adult who is healthy not to keep the fast.

If children can and do fast from food and liquid to eat the antidoran. What excuses are there for an adult.

If we are to be careful and to never let a crumb hit the ground in carelessness and if we do .... we carefully pick up even the most minute crumb. How come some Churches let the Heterodox partake of this bread, how are these people to understand the responsibility of such a simple thing.

with love in Christ
irene

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear All,
I have tried to post on this thread twice, but they did not show up. Here goes again.

I was in church recently which has a great number of children and, frankly, the carpet had quite a few crumbs on it from the Antidoron. Somehow, I don't think that Jesus Christ Our Lord is too worried about the crumbs. It would be impossible to give children bread without expecting crumbs to fall. I try to not let them fall, but it's impossible to prevent them. Do we really expect people to eat the crumbs that inevitably fall to the floor?

I also want to refer back to my original point that the Eurcharist is not to be equated with the Antidoron--one is consecrated and one is blessed. There is a difference. Having a reverence for the Antidoron should not eclipse our interior attitude toward the Eucharist. And if Antidoron were as important as the Eucharist, the church would not dispense it into our hands, it would place it on our tongues as Catholics do the host or with a spoon in our mouths as the Orthodox do the Eucharist. It is "in place of" the Eucharist.

As my spiritual father reminds me, fasting is to remind us that "man" does not live by bread alone. If we do not prepare ourselves spiritually to receive Christ in the Eucharist, the fasting does us no good. To me, fasting is not to prepare us for battle or to make us more Orthodox. It is to help put us in the presence of God and to remind us that we rely on him for our sustenance.

In other words, where is our focus?

In Christ,
Mary Stavroula

[Moses Anthony]

Dear All,

I've received comunion in parishes of two jurisdictions, and two different Orthodox Rites. In every instance the antidoran-the blessed bread-is treated as just that, blessed. If for some reason any of the antidoran remained after the fellowship hour, it was-in the Byzantine Rite-my responsibility to dispose of it, which I did by tossing it out onto the grass where birds could get it. Under no circumstance was the leftover antidoran ever put into the trash can. This included the crumbs when the prospora was cut before Divine Liturgy started.

The rubrics about fasting before receiving the hosts have changed drastically since the Early Church. Regardless of how often you go to confession; how many prayers are said, or how long one fasts prior to Divine Liturgy, you're still not worthy. That's the whole point of Communion (in my opinion), we who are not worthy are approaching to receive Him who of pure body and life, died in my place! Now, while the epiclesis is not said over the antidoran, it's still blessed. Put simply: The antidoran is part of the life of the Church, all of which is treated with proper reverence. Whether or not one fasts prior to receiving antidoran, don't discount the blessing said over it.

the sinful & unworthy servant

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear James,

To my own way of seeing it I believe you capture the exact balance needed in regards to the Antidoron. The Antidoron really does need proper respect in the way you describe. On the other hand (not to disagree with anything you said but only to add to the thought)it is not the Eucharist and perhaps while maintaining all due respect we can accept that it is also distributed to the non-Orthodox after the Liturgy. I actually do not want to try to maintain what is correct or not; rather I am talking about a pastoral matter of somehow sharing of ourselves with those who visit our parishes and are seeking the Truth. Again this is possibly due to my own personal weakness- but I have a great deal of trouble denying non-Orthodox these non-sacramental aspects of the Church-the Antidoron & the Cross of our Lord to kiss at the end of Liturgy. And that is what we do here. Perhaps it comes down to the fact that in such troubled times this is like offering that 'glass of water' that Christ spoke of.

In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael

[Irene]

Christ is Risen!
To Thee O Lord!

Take care to weed out the little sins. So say some of our holy fathers, many times I have read words to this effect.. If you weed out the little things that seem insignificant then it is harder for the larger sins to develop.

A lot of people here in our country would be very surprised at the following comment:-
" I was in church recently which has a great number of children and, frankly, the carpet had quite a few crumbs on it from the Antidoron. Somehow, I don't think that Jesus Christ Our Lord is too worried about the crumbs. It would be impossible to give children bread without expecting crumbs to fall. I try to not let them fall, but it's impossible to prevent them. Do we really expect people to eat the crumbs that inevitably fall to the floor? " ........ This just greatly saddens me. The only reason the floor is covered with crumbs is because people are careless.

My 3 children knew from their toddler years not to be careless. Pious parents break small pieces of the bread and place it in their children's mouths - the result no crumbs on the floor. When crumbs do fall by accident (which is rare) parents are seen to be picking up every last one of them, they do not need to be eaten just placed under a bush where they will not be walked on.

It is not hard to keep this small pious act - many people practice this. In fact I have never before heard of Orthodox Christians who do not.

I go one bit further. The Church I attend is a Skete Church, I have in the past volunteered to help out in the kitchen at the monastery. I learnt that not even the ordinary day to day bread is to be just tossed into the bin. In memory of the body of Christ, wasted bread is broken up and put out for the birds to eat. Whether or not this is necessary I am not sure. It does not matter - it is a small effort to follow this practice.

Holy Bread, Egg Shells from Blessed Food, the paper from cleaning the lamp wicks the washing up water we clean our lamps in all treated with respect. I pour the washing up water behind the rose bushes where no one walks. Food can be buried under plants to nourish the plants, the oily paper can be burnt and the ashes put under the plants. Cloths for cleaning icons etc are kept separately from the other cleaning cloths. None of these acts are difficult.

Re: your comment "I don't think that Jesus Christ Our Lord is too worried about the crumbs." ........ Of course in the big picture spilling crumbs is hardly in the league battling our sins.

However as Orthodox Christians our duties include humbling ourselves. It is a small and easy task, an obedience, a way to battle the demon of pride. Bend your knees, pick up the crumbs, be humble how hard is that? If you do find this hard, if it irritates you, pray about it, ask yourself why does it disturb you so much.

Sweetest Lord Jesus Save us.

with love in our Risen Christ!
irene

PS. To our Fathers, if you believe it is the right thing to give out holy bread to the Inquirers, you know best. We have some lovely inquirers at our Church who brought a basket to be blessed and they always take great care with the blessed food/egg shells.
Glory to God for all things!

[Irene]

Christ is Risen!
To Thee O Lord!

Take care to weed out the little sins. So say some of our holy fathers, many times I have read words to this effect.. If you weed out the little things that seem insignificant then it is harder for the larger sins to develop.

A lot of people here in our country would be very surprised at the following comment:-
" I was in church recently which has a great number of children and, frankly, the carpet had quite a few crumbs on it from the Antidoron. Somehow, I don't think that Jesus Christ Our Lord is too worried about the crumbs. It would be impossible to give children bread without expecting crumbs to fall. I try to not let them fall, but it's impossible to prevent them. Do we really expect people to eat the crumbs that inevitably fall to the floor? " ........ This just greatly saddens me. The only reason the floor is covered with crumbs is because people are careless.

My 3 children knew from their toddler years not to be careless. Pious parents break small pieces of the bread and place it in their children's mouths - the result no crumbs on the floor. When crumbs do fall by accident (which is rare) parents are seen to be picking up every last one of them, they do not need to be eaten just placed under a bush where they will not be walked on.

It is not hard to keep this small pious act - many people practice this. In fact I have never before heard of Orthodox Christians who do not.

I go one bit further. The Church I attend is a Skete Church, I have in the past volunteered to help out in the kitchen at the monastery. I learnt that not even the ordinary day to day bread is to be just tossed into the bin. In memory of the body of Christ, wasted bread is broken up and put out for the birds to eat. Whether or not this is necessary I am not sure. It does not matter - it is a small effort to follow this practice.

Holy Bread, Egg Shells from Blessed Food, the paper from cleaning the lamp wicks the washing up water we clean our lamps in all treated with respect. I pour the washing up water behind the rose bushes where no one walks. Food can be buried under plants to nourish the plants, the oily paper can be burnt and the ashes put under the plants. Cloths for cleaning icons etc are kept separately from the other cleaning cloths. None of these acts are difficult.

Re: your comment "I don't think that Jesus Christ Our Lord is too worried about the crumbs." ........ Of course in the big picture spilling crumbs is hardly in the league battling our sins.

However as Orthodox Christians our duties include humbling ourselves. It is a small and easy task, an obedience, a way to battle the demon of pride. Bend your knees, pick up the crumbs, be humble how hard is that? If you do find this hard, if it irritates you, pray about it, ask yourself why does it disturb you so much.

Sweetest Lord Jesus Save us.

with love in our Risen Christ!
irene

PS. To our Fathers, if you believe it is the right thing to give out holy bread to the Inquirers, you know best. We have some lovely inquirers at our Church who brought a basket to be blessed and they always take great care with the blessed food/egg shells.
Glory to God for all things!

[James H.]

I was pleased to read the latest posts from Mary, James A., and Fr. Raphael. I also appreciate the question Fr. Raphael proposed on whether non-Orthodox should be able to partake.

Because this is a forum, I don't think I would be overstepping my bounds in offering some of my own thoughts on this last question. I personally see this practice, common in most Orthodox churches in North America, as a very positive one. We must always remember that the antidoron is not a Sacrament. It's blessed bread. Not only is the Eucharist on a different level than the antidoron, but it seems odd to even try to compare the two. Other than their place of origen, the two hold nothing in common. I agree with Mary: I don't believe Jesus cares if some crumbs fall on the floor. We should treat it with respect because it reminds us of the Eucharist and, simpley put, because it is blessed. With that said, is it not entirely possible that God might be overjoyed to see non-Orthodox reciving a blessing from His Bride in hopes that such a blessing might somehow draw them closer to their Creator?

Obviously we should not and cannot offer the Eucharist to non-Orthodox for 1) it is our most intimate expression of unity within the Church and 2) we know that it can be taken to our condamnation if we do not properly discern what we are reciving.

While this really is how I feel regarding the subject of the Antidoron, I completely respect if others continue to see it differently. Also, regardless of my views, if I were in a parish (or country) where they held a stricter view of the Antidoron I would be obligated out of respect and love for my fellow Orthodox Brothers and Sisters to follow i/{their norms}. When in Rome...

In Christ,

James

[Trudy Ellmore]

In three Orthodox churches I visited, I did not go to receive the Antidoron, but those who did came to me and broke a piece off of theirs and shared it with me. When I asked about this practice, I was told that the antidoron was okay for all persons to receive whether Orthodox or not because it was not the Eucharist. I was also taught to handle it and consume all of it (crumbs as well) with care and to be sure nothing fell to the carpet. If they did, to be sure to pick them up.

Also after Liturgy is over, I join everyone in greeting Father, venerating the cross and receiving Antidoron. Father has not said I shouldn't, but I plan on speaking with him about this because if I'm doing something wrong then I need to be corrected.

Though the antidoron is not the Eucharist, it is blessed and this is special to me. Since the Eucharist is not permitted to me (rightly so), I count it a privilege and am humbled to be able to receive what little blessing is available to me through the Church as a non-Orthodox. Like the "sip of water to the thirsty" as someone put it.

Thank you for the food for thought. Irene, I especially appreciate the reminder to be diligent in the little things in life. A drop of water in a bucket, over time, fills it up.

In Christ, Trudy

[Alex Haig]

Christ is Risen!

I may be putting the proverbial cat amongst the pidgeons but here goes. I remember speaking to a nun once about the Eucharist and she said that you'll get more spiritually by eating the antidoron (of in fact any bread) if you approach it in the right way than by receiving the Eucharist in the wrong (unprepared) way.

I hope that I haven't stirred things up too much.

With love in Christ

Alex

[Melissa]

Dear Irene,
Thank you for including in your post #19 some of the "little things" (which represent the big things of our faith) you do out of obedience, love, and respect. I'm learning to be more intentional about such pious acts, but often don't know about or see the opportunity in my daily life. Your words give me ideas and inspiration. I've found my days feel different, better, richer in quality, when I'm more intentional about approaching everything reverently - at which I'm a miserable failure, and a continuing student.
In Christ,
Melissa

[John Curtis Dunn]

It was asked: With that said, is it not entirely possible that God might be overjoyed to see non-Orthodox reciving a blessing from His Bride in hopes that such a blessing might somehow draw them closer to their Creator?

----

Strictly speaking, only those who are partaking of the Holy Mysteries should be present at the time of their reception...but this practice is not poplular, for it would offend because some people would see this as saying they were less worthy than those who worthily received it as unworthy Christians.

john dunn

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear All,

The word 'intentional' seems to be a good one in describing how we are called to relate to...well everything when you think of it. My first spiritual father spent much sweat & tears teaching me to be careful & neat with literally everything (which wasn't so easy for a more than easy-going hippie who had grown up in the 60s!). Being a pea brain & having a stony heart I of course couldn't see the point in being so 'uptight'; only later did it slowly dawn on me that being careful is an integral aspect of having love for everyone & everything- as those being renewed in the New Adam we are called to have responsability for and to tend all of creation: our brothers & sisters in Christ, the non-Orthodox, animals; there are several Greek saints who counseled planting & tending trees as a form of spiritual therapy.

But of course the things we care for often affect the people we should care for. Thus in the Church there are many things that must be shaped to the person and this is what we call economia. Here we can see that the motivation is the opposite of 'it doesn't matter'. Having the goal of salvation firmly in mind we must open the doorway to Christ so that others may pass through it.

In his Paschal Message the head of the jurisdiction I am in writes, "To whom much is given, said the Lord, much is expected. We were given the treasure of the true faith, which obliges us not to be proud of it, but to tremble before the responsibility of this gift and to generously share it with our neighbor."

In the Risen Christ- Fr R

May we be enabled like the doubting & trembling Thomas to touch our Risen Lord
Please keep my parish (Holy Resurrection) in your prayers as this Sunday is our Feast Day

[Warren Bensinger]

Christ is Risen!

Thanks for bring that up John.
I was wondering if anyone knows if that ("The Doors, The Door" the excluding of non-Orthodox) is practiced anywhere today?
Is there good reason to practice it?
Would the Church be better off to practice it?
Never mind the feeling of those who would exit or the embarisment of those that stayed, is it right?
Don't mean to sound eletist or anything. Respect is one of the things that made me sure of the Orthodox Church before I was Crismatied.

warren

[matt]

John,
Your point about non-Orthodox being present after the second part of the liturgy begins, after “all catechumens depart and none remain”, reminded me of my own catechumenate. While my priest didn’t force me to go, and while I had been to “’complete” divine liturgies before, he had decided that once I became a catechumen I would leave after the gospel and the blessing for the catechumens. I am unaware of any churches that practice this custom, once universal as far as I have been able to gather, but it certainly served as a valuable reminder to me concerning the nature of the liturgy as a family affair to which I was not yet a member. I am not proscribing this for anyone, but I would not have done it any other way. Before I was a catechumen I used to think, “Why won’t Fr. M let me stand with him at the altar? I would be of use since there is no one to hand him the censor. Besides, at vespers there is hardly anyone around. I am more dedicated than the actual members of the parish!” What a stupid attitude I had, forgetting that no one, especially me, had/has a right to stand at the altar of the Father. I was still in the mindset that as long as I intellectually consented to the doctrines of the Church that it somehow gave me a free pass. Obviously that was a Protestant approach to the idea of the Church’s communion, but at the time it made perfect sense. I guess I bring this up to underscore the fact that while my own parish, and all that I have ever been to, allow non-Orthodox (would this also mean non-Christian?) to receive the antidoron this was clearly not the practice of the Orthodox in earlier times.

Can anyone discuss when the practice of even offering the antidoron to the faithful developed? Is it before the third century? Also, when did the liturgies of the east start addressing the catechumens as we do now, and when did we stop doing what we say we are doing (“Let all catechumens depart, let no catechumen remain, let us the faithful again and again in peace pray to the Lord.”)? Do catechumens depart in Greece or Serbia, for example?

Thanks,
Matt

[matt]

Dear Irene Alvin, and Melissa,
I have also found that trying to live the little details to be a path to living more consciously of the presence of God and the sacredness of God’s presence in all things. I forget if it was Blake, but someone said, “All that is is holy.” Fr Alexander Schmemann said something along the lines that it is the Christian’s calling to bring to the seemingly most insignificant detail of the routine drudgery of everyday life all the fullness of God. In his book Sacraments and Orthodoxy/For the Life of the World, he beautifully explains how the liturgy is manner by which we should approach all of life writ large- a thanksgiving that offers everything in praise and adoration to the Trinity.

I can’t remember if he wrote the following or if it was me, since my notes about the book are not with the book and I journal when I read, but it seems apropos: “Man was to be the priest of a eucharist, offering the world to God, and in this offering he was to receive the gift of life. But in this fallen world his love is deviated from its true direction. He still loves, he is still hungry. He knows he is dependant on that which is beyond him, but his love and dependence refer only to the world in itself. He does not know that even breathing can be communion with God.

He does say, since I have it in quotes, (Alvin, this about the eighth day) “We called Pascha the ‘sacrament of time’. Indeed, the joy given on that night, the light that transforms the night into a night ‘brighter than this day’ is to become the secret joy and the ultimate meaning of all time, and thus transforming the year into a ‘Christian year’. After the Paschal night comes the morning, and then another night and another new day. Time begins again, but it is now filled from ‘inside’ with that unique and truly eschatological experience of joy. A ray of sun on a gloomy factory wall, the smile on a human face, each rainy morning, the fatigue of each evening- all is now referred to this joy and not only points beyond itself, but can also be a sign, a mark, a secret presence of that joy.”

Anyway, those are some thoughts that sprang to mind when I read your posts.

Matt

[matt]

I came by this after posting a request for info on the earliest references to the passing out of antidoron. I found this, which I hope some of yo find useful.

It may seem strange that the earliest historical reference to this custom should be found in the Western Church. It is mentioned in the 118th letter of St. Augustine to Januarius (now known as the 54th letter in the new order. See Migne, P. L., XXXIII, 200), and in the canons of a local council in Gaul in the seventh century. Originally it was a substitute, or solatium for such of the faithful as were not prepared to go to Communion or were unable to get to the Holy Sacrifice. If they could not partake of the body of Our Lord they had the consolation of partaking of the bread which had been blessed and from which the portions for consecration had been taken. In the Eastern Church mention of the antidoron began to appear about the ninth and tenth centuries. Germanius of Constantinople is the earliest Eastern author to mention it in his treatise, "The Explanation of the Liturgy", about the ninth century. Subsequent to him many writers of the separated Eastern Church (Balsamon, Colina, Pachemeros) have written on the custom of giving the antidoron. The usage to-day in the Orthodox Greek Church, following the Nomocanon, is to employ the fragments or unused pieces of the various prosphora, except that from which the agnetz is taken, for the purpose of the antidoron. The canonical regulations of the Russian Orthodox and Greek (Hellenic) Orthodox Churches require that the antidoron should be consumed before leaving the church, and that it should not he distributed to unbelievers or to persons undergoing penance before absolution. While the rite still continues in the East it was finally given up by the Western Church, and now only survives in the Roman Rite in the pain bénit given in the French churches and cathedrals at High Mass, in certain churches of Lower Canada, and occasionally in Italy, on certain feasts.

I also found an orthodox page saying that the antidoron has its origins in the food distributed to the poor. The Faithful would bring gifts of wheat, bread, oil, and wine to the Church - specifically to the Diaconikon (a separate building set aside for the deacons' use. The deacons in the diakonikon would receive the gifts. Part of the giftswould be used in teh liturgy, the rest would be distributed to the poor at the end of divine services. I found that last bit here, http://www.saintelias.com/
(They have an incredible temple!)

Can anyone comment on the historicity of this last point? It seems logical.

[James H.]

Father Raphael,

Thank you so much for your last post (#159). You really do an excellent job at balancing emphases. I am afraid my last post here sounded as if I were treating oeconomia as if it meant "it's not that important" rather than as the Church's effort (through God's grace) to lend a helping hand where one is needed (i.e. recognizing an individual's weaknesses or predispositions).

It's like with fasting. Not everyone can be expected to fast exactly according to the cannons. Sometimes this is due to personal health reasons, but a lot of times it is just simply that such a strict habit would be detrimental to the spirtual life of the believer. Regarding this last case, an Orthodox does not just decide on his/her own what he/she will do for Lent, but work this out with his/her spiritual guide (for everything in the life of the Church is to be communal... by the very definition of what "ekklesia" is!). Anyway, my point is that, oeconomia is not meant to lower the standard but rather to offer a kind of ladder for the faithful to use in order reach that standard. I realize that I too often abuse this grace given to the Church as a device to lower the standards in my faithwalk rather than elevate myself towards those standards.

While I don't believe that that God gets angry with an Orthodox for enjoying a hotdog on a Friday evening at a baseball game, this isn't the point. The point is, are we doing all we can to nurture our faith? We could say, i{"You know, I'm not going to eat that hotdog because I am part of a community and saying "no" to that hotdog is just a simple reminder of who I am, and a chance to remember what Christ did for us on the Cross"} While Christ isn't angry about some blessed crumbs falling to the ground, it's not the crumbs that are the point. The point is, are we doing all we can to teach our own selves and our children the discipline and respect so key to our faith?

I read someone's post in Monachos saying something about the "bricks" of our faith (perhaps it was you, Fr. Raphael?). Am I being careful to keep that wall strong? I am realizing more and more that I still hold American/protestant baggage (i.e. my minimalist attitude) and this causes me to abuse oekonomia from time to time.

So, I want to thank everyone in here (Irene, Mary and especially Fr. Raphael for sorting things out, so-to-speak) for your insights.

God bless,

James

[Mary Stavroula]

Thank you, Irene, for you enlightening thoughts on what you and your community do. I think it is commendable.

I am relating what I have seen in the short time that I have been Orthodox. The crumbs I saw were in the cathedral in New Jersey. I was, what shall I say, surprised by them there, but no one else seemed to be. As I said I take care not to drop the crumbs, but it is impossible not to have some fall. Ordinarily, I attend church in New York City and there is no rose bush outside to put the crumbs! Even if there were a tree available, I would not put them there because I would be afraid that something worse would fall on it in dirty New York. I have to assume that those who clean the church dispose of them with care, and I do assume that. People's circumstances are not always the same everywhere.

Also, I guess I tend to consider what Jesus talked about so often, and in no uncertain terms, that following the religious rituals and not paying attention to the needs of others was something that really bothered him. One can find many examples of this, like the story of the good Samaritan, the apostles picking corn on the sabbath, Jesus healing on the Sabbath, eating with sinners, etc. As Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath," and "It is not what enters one's mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one." (Matt 15:11) and "Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy." (Matt 15:17-20) Quite blunt words, from Our Lord, but he tended to be that way on this subject.

In regard to dispensing the antidoron to non-Orthodox, it was given to me in one church I attended which also surprised me. The first time I attended an Orthodox liturgy in a Greek Orthodox church, I didn't know what they were giving out and they were also kissing the priest's hand, which I had no intention of doing at that time. I, personally, did not expect to take the antidor as a non-Orthodox.

In another church when it was offered, I accepted it. After I became Orthodox, I offered it to my friends in my own church and it bothered people, so I will not do it again.

I try to be respectful of the traditions that are practiced where I go, and to show love and compassion to people everywhere, on which point I fail all the time.

In Christ who loves us all,
A sinner,
Mary Stavroula

[Mary Stavroula]

Matt,
I don't know if you are aware, but the Roman Catholic Church restored the catechumen process from the ancient church, including the departing of the catechumens after the gospel to be instructed during the rest of the liturgy. I wish I could have had that experience in the Orthodox church as you did.

It's confusing when a convert experiences different things in different churches as I have. My preparation did not include any admonitions on the antidor except to consume it in church. If you get a large piece, and they all seem to be large, it's very difficult to break it and not drop crumbs. I try eating it in off of my hand, but that can presents a problem of it falling off my hand. If crumbs fall on the pew I pick them up and eat them, but if they fall on the ground I have no place to put them. If I take them home I have no yard to put them in because I live in an apartment. The street the church is on has no park close by. What am I suppose to do? Maybe I won't take it any more. There's too much anxiety around it now.

[matt]

Dear Mary,

Keep taking the antidor. God would rather you take it and drop a few crumbs than to not take it at all. Of course each parish has its own attitude toward who can have it, since orthodoxy is anything but monolithic. But PLEASE, don't forget that GOd wants us to share in his blessings. IF we mess up a little, that's going to be expected and GOd is big enough to handle it. We do our best not to drop the crumbs, but if they drop, try to happily pick them up and put them in your poket and put them on the first piece of grass or something where you know no one will walk

[Irene]

Dear Mary, I have always been very interested and grateful to everyone who has corrected me throughout my years of Orthodoxy. My first years in Orthodoxy where filled with a type of "terror", I would literally shake, sometimes, with the fear that I might be doing something wrong and in those days the Church services here in this country were not in English, so I never knew when it was important not to move around the Church.

I now know, however, that it is more important to concentrate on prayer than whether or not I am making mistakes that I don't realise. I am sure that Our Priest will correct my errors sooner or later.

I am currently re-learning correct Orthodox Practices because I'm not sure whether what I have learnt in the past is correct or just ethnic traditions. So unless I am told by Clergy or Monastics I don't want to pass on any information. I do not want to mislead anyone.

Now that you have mentioned about the crumbs and maybe they shouldn't be put under the bushes I have been wondering who told me to do that. So thankyou for pointing that out. I'll have to add that to my ever lengthening list of questions for my Priest.

In Christ
irene
ps. There is an interesting article on hypocrisy that I came across in recent weeks titled ,"What Was Christ Writing on the Ground? "
By Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich http://www.stvladimirs.ca/library/christ-writing-ground.html

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear Irene,
Thank you for sharing some of your story with me. I'm sure you are doing the correct thing with the crumbs. Others have told me that they have the servers scatter the crumbs over the ground from the baskets of antidoron. A leader of this particular community told me to not be afraid to scatter them on the sidewalk for the pidgeons. I don't feel comfortable doing that because people walk their dogs, and other things get on the sidewalk. He said not to worry about that. I really felt better having the women of the church dispose of them. They probably know best. I don't see anyone in the little church I go to, picking up crumbs. I'm going to ask at church what happens to them. They must have lots in the basket, too.

What I love about the Orthodox liturgy is the combination of the glory of God and the ordinary, relaxed attitude of the people, which makes real the incarnation. Christ is fully God and fully human. I go to a Greek speaking church. I try to follow in the book, but sometimes I stop because I miss what's going on if I am buried in the book. I experienced the Charismatic movement many years ago, but in a strange (to me) way, God is so much more alive in the Orthodox liturgy. It seems to me that the commotion and outward activity of the charimatic gatherings was more about what the people are doing rather than about what God does. I am often overcome with emotion in liturgy, but it must be God opening my heart, because it's not from my understanding or any intellectual insight.

At the same time, the people vernerate the icons by kissing them, light candles--they are so at home in the sacredness. It's a place where the sacred and the profane come together, the divine and the human, which is the central point of our faith. God became a human being to help us to become god. But just as Jesus did not lose his humanity, we do not lose ours. To me it is all a wonder.

Thank you for the link and the article. I always appreciate another avenue of learning.

In Christ who loves us with an undying love,
Mary

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear Irene and Melissa and all,
I was discussing the "crumb" issue with an older Orthodox woman whose father was a priest. She suggested to use a handkerchief to place the antidoron in to catch all the crumbs. That's what her mother used to do. (Handkerchiefs are old fashioned and seldom used today, but they still exist, and are better, I think than tissue paper).
However, she was also very concerned that converts like me not be overly anxious about "doing the right thing" to the extent that the liturgy is a traumatic experience.

Maybe one of the underlying issues here is the lack of systematic training (at least where I live) for converts. Bishop Kallistos mentions in his book, "The Inner Kingdom" that converts should not be received into the church and then "thrown in the deep end of Orthodoxy and left to their own devices to sink or swim." Something he has observed. That's how I feel at times.

One example of a tradition that I read about, but forgot about was not kneeling between Pascha and Pentecost. I noticed that no one was kneeling or prostrating, but I didn't know why until I asked the priest. There is so much to learn, that unless it is systematically taught, a newcomer will either not know or not integrate the knowledge into practice.

In Christ,
Mary Stavroula

[Melissa]

Hi Mary -

Yes, I agree about systematic training - it hasn't really been present in our parish either, although Fr. is very good about "cueing" or reminding the congregation of things, which is one way I learn. Also, we read a lot about traditions before converting and were able to ask questions; and my 'godmother' in the church is very, very helpful. I like what your friend said to you about the Liturgy - being "correct" shouldn't go so far as to destroy the experience. I've decided that there is so much I don't know, that I try first and always to be respectful. That way if I goof up, the impact on others is (hopefully!) minimized. I also like her handkerchief idea - I still have some, and it's a nice, discreet and yes, respectful way of handling the situation.

Thank you for your input.

In Christ,
Melissa

PS - Our Bishop was with us a couple of weeks ago, and I was in a panic - would I remember how to greet him, etc. Well, he of course has met a great many converts over the years and his attitude of eagerness to meet new people in the parish put me at ease before I even was introduced to him. (And yes, I remembered...!)

[Effie Ganatsios]

Mary, I would also advise you not to get too caught up in the details. There are far, far more important aspects of being an Orthodox Christian than forgetting that we don't kneel at certain times, etc.

Open your heart to God, be sincere in your desire to approach him more and more as time goes by, study your bible every day, say your prayers, learn about our faith from the holy fathers. The most important : allow God's love to pass through you to all those you meet every day. The other things will become easier (or not, as in my case) as the years pass. It's good to learn about certain things but not to get bogged down in them. Knowledge of these details comes with time and is nothing to get stressed about.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

If I could add something here. The 'small' things we do in the parish (kneeling or not, how we receive the prosphora, etc) are always connected to a specific place- parish or monastery- that we are a part of. The place that we are a part of is not only a place of worship- chiefly it is that specific place God has called us to grow spiritually in.
Each place is of the One Faith but has its own characteristic ways of doing things (its own 'rule'). Trying to follow the particuliar 'way' helps us to become part of a particuliar place, to be connected to the other members. It is just like a family- perhaps this family cleans up on Wednesdays while that cleans up on Thursdays; neither is more correct. The only thing that is correct is for the members of each house to clean up on the day proper to it.
Following the 'small' things helps one to be careful & conscientious in ones life. To have a measure of humility, to show love for the place God has brought us to. From the higher perspective we can say that just as the 'small' things help us to be grafted into the life of the parish, so it also helps us to be grafted into the Life of Christ.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear Father Raphael,
Thank you for your addition. It helped me see the ekklesia as a unity extending from the local church in which I am standing.

An interesting example of local church from my experience was when I was recently chastized by an elderly Greek gentleman at the antidoron basket for kissing an icon after receiving communion. I was reduced to tears. I think he was so shocked that I would do something that he had been taught all his life was disrespectful (and I was totally unaware of), that he couldn't help himself.

Of course, my modern mind finds such correction difficult to accept. But yesterday I read a story about Elder Paisios from Mount Athos who prayed as he went into liturgy that God would "crush" his heart. When he went up to communion the young priest who was about to offer him the Eucharist stopped and proceeded to attack the elder telling him that he was a nuisance. Paisios was astounded until he remembered his prayer. Later the priest apologized profusely as he bowed before the elder and kissed his hands; he said he didn't know what came over him.

I have been praying for years for God to take my heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh, but I reject my opportunities time and again. I should thank the gentleman rather than resent him for giving me an opportunity to have a humbled heart. "Karkian syntetrimmenin kai tetapinomenin O Theos ouk exoudenosi" -- God will never spurn a crushed and humbled heart.

A sinner,
Mary Stavroula

[Mary Stavroula]

Correction to my last quotation in Greek:
Kardian syntetrimmenin kai tetapinomenin O Theos ouk exoudenosi.

Mary Staroula.

[Melissa]

Dear Mary, Father Raphael, and James,
I'd never heard about not kissing an icon after receiving the Eucharist - I don't, because of how our church is set up, but I'm curious (anyone?) about the thinking behind it.

I appreciate your reminder, Father, that many of the things mentioned in this thread are valuable local practices. That helps me remember to be humble when visiting a parish, I can't know all the "ins and outs" of their practices, so I can learn not to worry unduly about them, and just be reverent in my attitude, observant when possible, and loving to all. We're there to worship our Lord, before anything else...

James, I'm late with this, but your statement from above "You know, I'm not going to eat that hotdog because I am part of a community and saying "no" to that hotdog is just a simple reminder of who I am, and a chance to remember what Christ did for us on the Cross" has become a frequent refrain in my mind. I've shortened it to be appropriate to many situations. Thanks for a handy tool!
In Christ,
Melissa

[John P. Nasou]

[Melissa - The reasoning behind not kissing anything or anybody, = including the priest's hand as he offers the antidoron or an icon, is = that particles of the Holy Communion may still be on your lips and may = be transferred to whatever is kissed. It is possible that they may be = defiled following this transfer. The original practice of our Faith is = that one must follow the fasting rules on the day that Holy Communion is = received, and this cleanses the mouth and body after its reception. This = is how our priest has repeatedly expressed it to our parishioners.=20

Returning to the question of fasting and the Antidoron: Fasting is not = required to receive the Antidoron, which is entirely different than the = bread of the Prosfora. In some churches, it is the remains of the = Prosfora (after the central portions are removed) which is cut into = small pieces and offered to the laity following their receiving = communion, and this bread does require fasting. In many churches where = there are large numbers of people receiving Holy Communion, the = Antidoron is offered since there would not be sufficient amounts of the = Prosfora for them all. Unlike Prosfora, Antidoron is made using oil in = its recipe, and it does not receive its blessing until the priest = receives the baskets of it and offers it as "a wave offering" over the = Holy Table during the Liturgy (see the Old Testament for the meaning of = Wave Offering). It is this bread which is offered at the end of the = Divine Liturgy to all the people, fasting or not, catechumens or = confirmed, and even to non-Orthodox. It is a symbolic presence today of = the common meal which had been part of the early Christian worship. I = have been told that at the Liturgy in very small churches, the only = bread used both following Holy Communion and at the dismissal is = Prosfora, therefore only those confirmed in the faith and fasting may = partake of it. John P. Nasou

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Melissa,
Regarding not kissing icons immediately after having received the Eucharist. What I was always told was to the effect that: having received the Eucharist which is the true Body & Blood of Christ we would not then go on to venerate that which is an image OF Christ. The reception of the Eucharist refers to the culmination of all things in Christ.
Perhaps connected to this is that the other services of the Church are 'services of time': Vespers, Compline, Midnight Office, Matins, 1st-9th Hours. All of these take one through the cycle of the day. The Liturgy however is outside of time, already an anticipation of the Kingdom. For example it is significant that the Gospel at Liturgy does not usually refer to the Resurrection (the Resurrectional Gospel is read at Matins) but rather to the Kingdom or preparation for it. The Vespers-Matins services culminate in the Liturgy- the pilgrimage from the services of time to the Liturgy is symbolic of our earthly-heavenly sojourn.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear All,
In regard to the custom of not kissing anything after receiving communion, thank you, Mellssa for mentioning that you hadn't heard of it either. That makes me feel better.

In fact, I mentioned it to three Greek Orthodox people at church, and they hadn't heard of it either. However, the pastor said there is such a tradition somewhere, and I guess the man who was so upset comes from that place! He said everything except "do nothing," "communion" and "kiss" in Greek, so I am not even sure what he was talking about. Maybe I will have the opportunity to ask him again and have someone translate for me.

I am just trying to learn something from the experience for my own spiritual growth. I am also very aware of the elderly. Often they don't feel well, and that influences how they interact with people.

Thank you, all for your assistance in this thread. Everyone has been so helpful and understanding. I appreciate it so much.

In Christ, who is truly risen and loves us all,
Mary Stavroula

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear John P Nasou,

Perhaps what you are describing is Byzantine practice? In Byzantine practice one large loaf is used for both the Lamb (what will become the Body of Christ) and the other particles which will be placed in commemoration of the Theotokos & saints (the nine ranks); also from this loaf one takes pieces in commemoration of the living & departed. This loaf is called the Prosphora from the Greek word "offering" (ta prosphora) or "to offer" (prospherein). From the earliest desciptions of the Liturgy (Sts Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, Hippolytus) we find the common phrase, "to offer the gifts" (prospherein ta dora) referring to the bread & wine offered for the Liturgy.

In the ancient Byzantine practice it is from this loaf that the Antidoron comes. As Nicholas Cabasilas says, "Then the offered bread, from which the sacred Lamb has been cut & offered to God, is broken in many portions and distributed to the faithful, who reverently receive it and kiss the priests's right hand which immediately before had touched the most holy Body of Saviour Christ, thus receiving sanctification and imparting it to those who are able to touch it." In other words the Prosphora is the loaf of offered bread which will be offered during the Liturgy and which will become the Body of Christ; the Antidoron is the bread which remains from the same loaf after the appropriate pieces are cut out for the Liturgy at the Proskomedia & which is then distributed to the faithful at the end of the Liturgy. The use of additional loaves using oil to distribute to the many faithful as Antidoron is very interesting- but what happened to the pieces from the main Prosphora? In the one Greek church I have attended at Liturgy this was the only loaf used for the Antidoron. An interesting note to add is that the antidoron was also seen in ancient times as a type of the body or womb of the Theotokos.

In Russian practice five prosophoras are used for the Proskomedia; as in Byzantine practice what is left over from these becomes the Antidoron. The faithful also have their own individual prosphora which are accompanied by books containing names of the living & departed to be commemorated. All of these prosphora are made using the same recipe never using oil. The 'wave offering' is not done in Russian practice.

The differences which you describe John between the Byzantine & Russian practices are very interesting.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear All,
Thanks to John's and Fr. Raphael's postings, I now understand the issue of not venerating after receiving communion. If it weren't for this forum, I wouldn't know. Thank you again.

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear Fr. Raphael and all,
I don't want to beat the proverbial dead horse, but.... I have received the Eucharist at a monastery and the Russian Cathedral in New York. The practice I experienced there (which some must be familiar with) was that after one receives the Eucharist the priest holds up the chalice to kiss. (I have seen this in an OCA church as well.) How does that square with not kissing anything after Eucharist? I kissed the Epitafios after Eucharist. I don't see how that is theologically or pragmatically any different; and the immediacy of kissing the chalice right after receiving Eucharist indicates to me that there is no concern over something passing out of your mouth. Now, I am totally confused.

In Christ,
Mary Stavroula

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Mary,

Yes that is a good point. In most parishes & monasteries I have been in the chalice was kissed after the Eucharist; after all so is the Cross in the hand of the priest at the Dismissal; and also the Life-giving Cross in the middle of the church on the Sundays of Veneration of the Cross. So the explanation about not kissing the icons refers only to the icons.

At times in the practices of the church we see these things that at first sight seem contradictory. For instance we have strict fast days when we are to have no wine & oil. But on the same strict fast days after the Eucharist we receive warm wine with water (Slav: zapivka). We are also told there are no prostrations on Sundays yet we all prostrate before the Cross on those Sundays when the Cross is venerated.

The explanation here (although it would be good for others to provide their own insights) is that each time in our life in the Church is full unto itself; each time is 'good' and full lived within God's sight within the Church. Abraham is told to do one thing, Abraham is told to do another. Each is a time lived fully in faith before God; and I think that is how we should see each day of our life in the Church.

With the Feast of the Glorious Ascension- Fr Raphael

[James H.]

Isn't it possible that all of the pieties mentioned here (of kissing this or NOT kissing that) are not universal but rather local traditions? I think it is appropriate that this question has been included in the Antidoron thread because it doesn't seem that there is a Universal stance on this piety either (that of not recieving it without having fasted first). The following are some random thoughts regarding all of this that may make sense to some and reveal me as a crazy liberal to others. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

When I visit other jurisdictions,or even other parishes within my own jurisdiction (Russian) I always try to approach the chalice among the last (that is, if I approach at all, feeling that I have prepared myself according to that parish's standards- e.g. weekly confession). This way I can be sure not to offend anyone or draw attenton to myself. If no one kisses the chalice there, neither will I; If they do, so will I. Same with the Icons. Also, I prefer to stand during Liturgy, but if I am visiting a parish and no one else stands through the whole Service, I feel a bit rude as I am their guest. Is it more "Orthodox" to stand during the Liturgy? Of course, but more Orthodox than that is following what Paul tells about not causing a stumbling block to our brothers and sisters. Similarily, if there is a parish that had no pews (yay for them!) and they happen to prostrate to the ground before the Eucharist between Pascha and Pentecost, then so will I. Is this uncanonical? Yes, of course, but if it is done out of ignorance (on their part) and brotherly respect (on the visitor's part) then I feel it is safe to say that Christ is not in the least bit offended and in fact is truly Glorified. It would NEVER be for me to correct that parish but rather for the priest or the bishop or possibly even the layity within that parish. When in Rome...

All of these are pieties and most pieties like these differ (and may even contradict) among jurisdictions and more often than not (as is the case in the US) among parishes- and that's alright if you ask me. One piety may say we must not kiss the icon of Christ after recieving the Eucharist in order to remind us that we have just recieved "the real thing" and therefore have no need for holy symbols at that present moment. Makes sense to me and seems perfectly healthy and beneficial. On the other hand, another jurisdiction might say that you should kiss the icon after partaking so that you are assured and reminded of Whom you are partaking. Does this not also make sense? IS there not always a piece of the Eucharist on the Altar 24/7. Then why have Icons at all in a temple? This argument can just be taken in circles without end. Can we not find both practices useful and respectful of the Orthodox Mind?

I think that many of us Orthodox (myself included, especially in the past) would have a hard time if we went the early Church, even after the days of the Catacombs, and saw the vaste amount of diversity among the Churches. All of these pieties have good sound reasoning behind them (even when they contradict each other) and in the end are a means to something greater and fundamental to the faith. In the case of those mentioned in this thread, they are means used to perserve the integrity of the Eucharist.

I also think that if we look at the history of the Church, change within even the Liturgy is very apparent. As Orthodox, it's not that we preserve the Divine Liturgy down to the very detail because "it was always like that", but rather to preserve the Integrity and Spirit of the Divine Liturgy. Let us remeber that it is the Word and Sacrament recived in a prayful mind that makes it Divine. The the small details are important and vital not because they are what make the Liturgy Divine but rather they are what give us insight into the fact that it is Divine. They are vital because they reveal to us what is taking place at the Liturgy and therefore should not be "messed with." If we just added or subtracted parts/words to the Liturgy because we thought it "sounded neat" or made it more "user friendly" then we would end up in the same desperate situation that most protestants (and unfortunately many Catholic parishes) find themselves in: it becomes a mere product of the times working to serve the people first rather than God (at best) and at worst changes the very fabric of their Theology.

So, I am not saying that we shouldn't care about the various pieties, but rather make sure that we don't make them the end but rather see them as a time-tested and holy means of achieving or understanding something greater. And that, yes, they can differ and always have to some degree, and even so can equally preserve the Orthodoxy of that Community.

I just learned a new word the other day: logorrehea... and it's what I'm doing right now in this post. ;) Forgive me.

James

PS: Please note that I am referring to small "t" traditions and would not say that anything is up for grabs. And that which is "up for grabs" shoudl change very slowly, over generations and only when vital to proclaiming the Gospel properly and these should always be approved by the Bishop. One example of an addition to the Liturgy I did find appropriate was what I heard in on OCA Parish where they prayed for the "unborn" during the Great Entrance. That is certainly a propos to our times and I welcome that in any parish I attended even if this is an "innovation" to the Liturgy.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear James,
I believe your way of seeing & explaining this issue is very proper.
You say, "All of these pieties have good sound reasoning behind them (even when they contradict each other) and in the end are means to something greater and fundamental to the faith." Yes you have explained it better than I did. There are not only different practices in different parishes (and let us not forget monasteries!) but also apparent contradictions within each parish (eg: NEVER do prostrations on Sundays, but then we prostate before the Cross on Sundays). The best way is to see each action in itself as expressing our faith. Too much trying to rationally tie everything together will fail us.
Your insights also lead to the observation that there is some sort of invisible connection between the 'rule' of each place and the personalities there. The prayers & concerns of the people somehow invisibly coalesce to form the unique concerns of that place or the way in which this is expressed: an example is the prayer for the un-born in the one parish you mention.
All in all I like your balance between the acknowledgement of different pieties as an expression of the One Faith.
In Christ- Fr Raphael
PS: about 'logorrehea'. Hmmm... I will have to see my spiritual father about that next time I go to confession!

[James H.]

Dear Melissa,

Thank you so much for your tremendous compliment in post 156. It had been over a month since I had last chekced my Monachos e-mail. Because of this I had forgotten what I had said in any of my old postings and I now realize, to my embarassment, that much of what I just posted yesterday has already been said in past posts, including the one you referred to in your 156. So I apologize to everyone here for repeating myself so often in my posts. lol

I also wanted to stress that I never expect anyone to agree with what I say, nor do I treat my points of view as some kind of dogma to stand by. I have certainly learned a lot from Monachos through criticism (i.e. the whole "Could God have decided NOT to create?" issue) and I'm sure I will continue to.

James

[matt]

James,
I have to say that your assessment makes a great deal of sense and I thank you for taking the time to think it through and type it out.

[Alex Haig]

We must not confuse tradition with "The Tradition". We must also understand that traditions (both kinds) are not dead and just passively passed on, but are alive and fresh. Traditions can change: the Faith does not.

With love in Christ

Alex

[James H.]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

I was so pleased by your words regarding the post I recently left. So often (especially in this thread) you have expressed ideas so eloquently and have helped me understand the issue at hand from a more balanced and civil point of view. Because of this, your words meant a lot to me, as would your criticisms were you to ever have any. Thank you again http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

James

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear Fr. Raphael and James H. et al,
I concur with James on the helpfulness of Fr. Raphael's posts on so many topics. They always go to the spiritual heart of the matter as well as being informative. I also agree that one must follow what the particular community is doing, although at times it is almost impossible to know what that is until after you make a "mistake." At the monastery, I was told by the priest as I approached to receive the Eucharist, to cross my arms over my chest. He explained the symbolism to me. This is not done in my little Greek church, and I think part of the reason is that we hold the red cloth ourselves rather than having someone do it for us, and you can't do both at the same time. The abbot said it was because of a laxity on the part of the clergy.

As I have said before, I think those situations provide an opportunity for the exercise of humility. For me, that is more important than knowing practice. When it stops bothering me, I may be making some progress.

I much prefer an alert and active congregation to one that doesn't care what anyone is doing.

Love, In Christ,
Mary Stavroula

[James H.]

Dear Mary,

Crossing your arms over your chest is, I believe, specifically a Russian piety (I am under Russian Jurisdiction) and NOT Greek (anyone can feel free to correct me on that if I am wrong. That was only my impression.). With that said, I doubt that the fact that they do NOT cross their arms at your parish is due to laxity but rather to particular tradition. Again, I could be wrong on that.

James

[Mary Stavroula]

Dear James,
I think you are correct because I have been to several Greek churches and have not seen that done, but have seen it in Russian churches.

The Greek church is strict about its own traditions.

Thanks,
Mary

[Melissa]

Dear Mary and James,
In my Antiochian parish, we also cross our arms as we approach for the Eucharist. If for some reason extra help is needed with the ...oh, I forgot the name, the red cloth...we gently take a corner. That's our practice in our small parish, but I don't know how general it is. Reverence and love are the basis of the piety, and perhaps the thing that makes some practicalities acceptable when necessary?
In Christ,
Melissa

[Olga]

I would agree with James. I am of Greek ancestry, married to a man of Russian background, and have never seen anyone cross their arms before Communion in any of the Greek churches I've been to (and I'm sure my mother would have made SURE I did, if it was Greek custom). I first saw the arm crossing custom in the Russian church I now attend with my husband, as well as in photographs and film taken in Slavic churches. Also, adding to Mary Stavroula's post regarding use of the red cloth: In the Greek churches the priest holds a corner of the red cloth in his left hand which also holds the stem of the chalice, and the communicants hold the cloth up to their chins themselves, whereas in the Russian church, two altar boys (those who are tall enough) stand on either side of the priest, holding the cloth like a dropsheet. I must admit the latter method is much more effective at preventing any Communion from falling to the floor, as can happen when babies and tots may move at the wrong time, and the priest's spoon misses the mark. In case of such spills, the priest simply puts the cloth to his mouth and consumes the drops or fragments that have landed on it.