Regulations / rules for fasting

[M.C. Steenberg]

Jenny, fasting days marked 'Oil and Wine' indicate days on which the fast is slightly lessened (during Lent this is primarily on Saturdays and Sundays, but includes others days --especially Feasts-- as well), and on which oil and wine, normally forbidden by the fasting rules, may be eaten or used in cooking.

Some days will be marked only 'Oil', in which case oil may be used, by the usual prohibition against wine remains in effect.

Additionally, 'Oil, Wine and Fish' will be found on certain days (e.g., the Feast of the Annunciation of the Mother of God), in which case fish also may be eaten in celebration of the given feast.

But again, in keeping with the ongoing purifying spirit of the lengthy fast, meals on days when such exceptions are made should remain simple, small and relatively meager: the idea is not to interrupt the ascetical endeavour with periods of gluttony, which would ruin the intent, but to remind us of the difference in meaning between certain days that occur during the course of Great Lent.

INXC, Matthew

[Chris]

Does anyone on these boards know some history about how the lenten fast began, historically? How did it get to be in its current form with its current rules? Is there a timeline of its development?

Thanks,
Chris

[M.C. Steenberg]

Lisa, as a follow-up to your note on fasting: the manner in which it is practiced in your parish is indeed that common throughout the Church. Given that, for so many denominations and religions, 'fasting' means the total absention from food and/or drink, the Orthodox use of the same term to mean reduced food intake and specific abstentions (e.g. from oil, or animal products) often causes confusion among non-Orthodox, who are oftentimes baffled at the concept of 'fasting for the whole of Lent', which I have heard assumed to mean a total lack of food for ten weeks!

There are very few days that usual Orthodox praxis calls for complete absention: as much as possible of the first week in Lent, and the final three days of Holy Week, are two notable examples of times when the Church does encourage all who are fit and able to refrain from food altogether.

INXC Matthew

[sinjin smithe]

Does anybody know where I can find rules for fasting such as what to eat, how much?

[Moses Anthony]

Sinjin,

There's a great deal on fasting to be found on various web pages, maintained by individuals or groups (Order of St. John the Divine), in the various jurisdictions. Some of this information will touch upon another thread here (New v Old Calendar). a few places to check would be www.goarch.com (http://www.goarch.com) or www.aaron.org (http://www.aaron.org), or www. christianinfo.com etc, etc,etc,.

One thing which I would recommend is this; prior to undertaking this act of piety, seriously and slowly read Isaiah chapter 58.

the unworthy servant

[sinjin smithe]

Does anyone know where I can find rules for fasting for a service that takes place at night. By this I mean tonight there is a Vesperal Divine Liturgy and I was wondering what the proper fasting is for one would like to take communion. Is it a strict all day fast?

[Owen Jones]

Whatever rule you adopt, Sinjin, you can be sure it will be wrong.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Does anyone know where I can find rules for fasting for a service that takes place at night.

Owen's somewhat blunt response notwithstanding, there are nonetheless some general guidelines followed by most of the Orthodox churches which, in parish settings, hold evening Liturgies. In a strictly canonical practice, the rule would be to fast for the entire day (some older monastic canons require three days; but this practice is uncommon in most monasteries), which begins, liturgically, at sunset the prior evening -- thus for an evening Liturgy on a Thursday, one would fast from sundown on Wednesday.

However, given that such a practice is impossible for many who have work duties and so forth, it is customary to encourage fasting from the morning of the same day on which one is to receive the Eucharist. Thus some parishes will encourage that a light breakfast be eaten, if necessary; then that individuals fast until the evening service. By all means, food should not be taken after midday.

The general notion behind all of this is preparation -- fasting to prepare the individual for reception of the Mysteries. The Church has set forth a day-long fast as a general guideline; it should be lessened only as one's circumstances require, under the guidance of one's spiritual father.

INXC, Matthew

[sinjin smithe]

Thank you for your helpful information Matthew. I should probably speak with my spiritual father on this issue.

[Katerina]

Forgive me, Owen, for I disagree with you.
The fasting rules which are correct are those that your Spiritual Father has given you to follow.

In Christian Love,

Katerina

[Owen Jones]

Sorry for my sarcastic sense of humor. My point is that for every rule in the Church there will always be someone who will gladly tell you that you are doing it all wrong, that your spiritual father must be a heretic, who will write letters denouncing you to your bishop, etc.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Sorry for my sarcastic sense of humor.

Alas, such things make us who we are.

INXC, Matthew

[Moses Anthony]

Egads; this is a merry-go-round. With your point taken Matthew, is not this one of the points of fasting, that we might become not who we are, but who it is that God created us to be. And so, we travel to the desert, wherever the Spirit of God directs us to find it!
Just a thought.

the unworthy servant

[Katerina]

Owen,

If there weren't such battles going on in the Church, I would have a tendency to think that the Church was not true. The devil is only going to go after those who are defeating him (with our Lord's help, of course).

In Christian Love,

Katerina

[Owen Jones]

I'm familiar with this argument, Katerina, and while it has some validity, I'm not sure I buy it en toto. There seems to be today a near fixation on the part of some with the outward, institutional, superficial aspects of Orthodoxy --as well as a superficial understanding of ecclesiastical authority. Then you have the people, mostly American ethnic Orthodox immigrants who want the Church to more like the Episcopalians. Now, granted, there is nothing new under the son, but there are aspects to this that appear to be typically modern. Ancient squabbles tended to be real fights over really, really important things, like is Christ co-eternal with the Father, or if you betrayed the Church to the Romans, do you get a second chance at salvation. Serious stuff. I would love to be part of a Church that fought over serious stuff.

I remember in Not of This World the story of the ROCOR bishop who first visited the little monastery founded by Seraphim Rose and others in Platina. His primary thought was where they could put the swimming pool for the youth retreats he was planning!!! How do you do battle with such a person over the very heart and soul of the Church, when he doesn't even have a clue? If I'm going to have to get involved in some Church controversy, bring on Arius!

[sinjin smithe]

Owen your story about the ROCOR bishop goes to show that ROCOR just like the OCA has its problems.

[John Curtis Dunn]

sinjin smithe Posted on Friday, 22
\i[Owen your story about the ROCOR bishop goes to show that ROCOR just like the OCA has its problems.]

Excuse me!

Actually, I think all the story shows is that one Bishop had a lapse of priories. All of us can fall far shorter than even this unknown Bishop did with his question.

Secondly, I wonder if the story has any merit? The authors of "Not of this World" were not known for their "submission to Bishops" on matters that were of extreme importance. I would count the story as suspect of any historical merit.

On the subject of fasting...I just hung up the phone with my dear Orthodox Mother who informed me that her Priest informed the Parish that "Greeks do not have to keep the fast on national holidays....therefore it is permissable to eat turkey next thurday."

Now then,"what mystery are these Greek Orthodox being encouraged to participate in?" Perhaps the mystery of Economia...thus "eating the economical turkey?"

John

[John Curtis Dunn]

Owen Jones Posted on Friday, 22
\i[If I'm going to have to get involved in some Church controversy, bring on Arius!]

While I empathize with the sentiment, I abstain from giving any "Amens."

Could our Orthodox age handle a heretic like Arius? Is not holiness and obedience that which exalts us? If we chaff at the small rules as burdensome, how shall we stand up in the more fiersome battles of for our minds and hearts. I suspect we battle about these seemingly insignificant battles because they are all we are capable of fighting. And when I say fighting, I am not primarily speaking of you against me, or me against them...I am speaking of simply accepting what has been passed down because as the Apostle wrote in 1 Cor.11 concerning contentiousness: "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the Church of God"

John

[Dimitris]

Hallo!

This is definitely an old thread, but I am curious on what the first post refers. I found an online calendar from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/calendar.asp), but there I don't find the split between "only oil allowed" and "oil and wine allowed" which is mentioned in the first post. Is there a more detailed calendar available online which considers these differences? Also I wonder if days are marked as "fish allowed" if this implies that also oil or oil and wine are allowed. And finally I would like to know when shellfish is allowed: on days on which fish is allowed, or also when only oil and wine is allowed, or even during strict fast?

Kind regards,
Dimitris

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Hallo!

This is definitely an old thread, but I am curious on what the first post refers. I found an online calendar from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/calendar.asp), but there I don't find the split between "only oil allowed" and "oil and wine allowed" which is mentioned in the first post. Is there a more detailed calendar available online which considers these differences? Also I wonder if days are marked as "fish allowed" if this implies that also oil or oil and wine are allowed. And finally I would like to know when shellfish is allowed: on days on which fish is allowed, or also when only oil and wine is allowed, or even during strict fast?

Kind regards,
Dimitris

There are differences between the Greek & Russian practices. In Russian practice you almost always find oil & wine combined, not "only oil allowed." You do though find "wine allowed" days but with no oil, which I've always wondered about. (On these days I follow the slightly relaxed rule of using oil as we did in the monastery where I lived. Since we never drank wine in the monastery there was no other way to mark that it was a lighter day.)

If fish is allowed this means that wine & oil are also allowed.

Shellfish is always allowed except at times of total (ie not eating at all) or else times of so-called dry eating (unless you eat the shellfish raw :)).

Next week- Cheesefare week- is an interesting one for fasting. Everything except meat may be eaten. So this is the only time you find the possibility of eating dairy products but not meat.

The best way to follow the Fast periods is with a wall calendar from your jurisdiction. This way you'll be following the rule your church does since as I say there are some differences between the churches in this rule.

I'm not aware of English calendars online (doesn't mean they're not there though). If you can understand Russian even at a basic level you might appreciate this Calendar from Russia (http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Days/qnwar'27.htm)which has the fasting rule for the day
in picture form to the bottom right of the page (plus it's a very nice site to look at with saints of the day, their icons, and scripture readings.)

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

I'm not aware of English calendars online (doesn't mean they're not there though).

My parish calendar is online here (http://stseraphimboise.org/schedule.html). If you click on the "view month" button, you'll get a graphic calendar with the feast/fast days marked. If you go to the Protection of the Mother of God (www.pomog.org) website you will be able to see the saints of the day, read the prologue entry for that day and read the scripture appointed for that day.

Of course these are old calendar, Russian style references - if you're looking for new calendar or Byzantine style references, I guess I'm not much help.

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

My parish calendar is online here (http://stseraphimboise.org/schedule.html). If you click on the "view month" button, you'll get a graphic calendar with the feast/fast days marked. If you go to the Protection of the Mother of God (www.pomog.org) website you will be able to see the saints of the day, read the prologue entry for that day and read the scripture appointed for that day.

Of course these are old calendar, Russian style references - if you're looking for new calendar or Byzantine style references, I guess I'm not much help.

Fr David Moser

Thanks Father. I'd never seen your parish website before.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Dimitris]

Thank you Father Raphael for your explanations. I think my local church won't be able to provide me with a wall calendar, but since it also belongs to the EP it will most obviously follow the same rules as indicated in the GOARCH calendar. Unfortunatelly I don't understand one sentence of Russian, but nevertheless the website you directed me to is indeed very nice. This is really valuable.

Thank you also Father David. Funnily, I found the POMOG website also yesterday through an internet research.

Just one more question, I hope it does not sound too profane: What do you think about consuming vitamin pills during periods of strict fast? Normally, these pills don't contain any animal ingredients, so basically it shouldn't be any problem, should it? Or would you regard this as a topic which should be discussed with one's priest?

Kind reagrds,
Dimitris

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Just one more question, I hope it does not sound too profane: What do you think about consuming vitamin pills during periods of strict fast? Normally, these pills don't contain any animal ingredients, so basically it shouldn't be any problem, should it? Or would you regard this as a topic which should be discussed with one's priest?

It would be good to ask your priest about this. But I would say that anything connected with ones health like medication and vitamins should be maintained.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father David Moser]

What do you think about consuming vitamin pills during periods of strict fast? Normally, these pills don't contain any animal ingredients, so basically it shouldn't be any problem, should it? Or would you regard this as a topic which should be discussed with one's priest?


All I can say is that I take vitamin pills during the fast. I guess if your conscience bothers you, you should ask your confessor, but then I'd say that about anything where your conscience bothers you.

Fr David Moser

[Katerina]

I figured this may be a good place to start as any....

There have been a few questions in my mind about the right thing to do as far as fasting is concerned in my household.

A bit of my background (sorry if this will be a bit long winded, but I figured it may help to understand a bit):

Let me begin by saying that many circumstances in my life as well as my children's lives have changed over the last 15 years, and I have gone from in the beginning of my first marriage not knowing much about the fast (yes, shameful for cradle Orthodox, I know!), to fully fasting, with young children (they were 4 and 6 at the time). It took the illness and subsequent death of my first husband for us to fully live and practice our Orthodox faith. Most people we were friends with (and I still am), do not fast fully, and some had a bit of a hard time with what we were doing (We did not talk about it much, but fasted at home, and being out, we always ate what was given without comment). Some thought we went "extreme". As the years went on, it became of course a bit harder for my kids as they grew, especially as sports kicked in. I gave them foods that just did not include meat, and I do know, of course, certain circumstances warrant not fully following the fast, and doing so with the guidance of your spiritual father, which we did.

My kids grew, and our parish changed, and the spiritual father that had known us through thick and thin (25 years!) was gone. Since then, I have felt myself as "floating", and not really finding another, even though I have of course gone to confession to my current parish priest.

I am now blessed with being married again, to an Orthodox (cradle, such as I) man- same ethnic affiliation, too. The struggle I feel I have, is the rather stricter rules that I personally have been living by for fasting during lent. I have, for the last 12 years or so, fasted according to the rules for all the different fasts during the year. It has become difficult for me, because (1) my husband likes to cook! (yes, I am blessed, as he cooks well, and what woman wouldn't like a break from that sometimes?) (2) he never grew up fasting or knowing much about that. He then married outside the faith, had kids and for over 14 years brought them up in a different church (Baptist or so I think- since this is what his ex was) except for Pascha (which they were and still are in awe of).

Since we have been married, my fasting has been a bit of a sore spot with him, as every time we turn around, he feels like- it's lent again! I never have told him he needs to fast with me, but he feels the need to be "the same" and be "family" in that way. I try to be quiet about it and when he does cook fish, or puts cheese in a dish- I don't say anything. This fast (Dormition) is particularly important to me, as my first husband passed away during this season...the Theotokos had and continues to be my source of strength, and I feel for my spiritual growth, humility, obedience etc., that this is important...but, since it does cause problems still (I do see that my husband still does not grasp the connection and reasons for fasting- he has a rather "Catholic" -forgive me if I offend anyone here- outlook on the "giving something up" thing. He also brags about being able to put out a "feast" for a meal during lent using delicious foods that are totally lenten, which of course I have tried to explain is not the point. It only comes across to him as(perhaps I am not explaining with enough humility, and am coming across as too proud) criticism towards his ability to "provide" and "do the right thing" for us...sigh...

So, my confusion or conflict is- do I relax the lenten rules for myself in order to keep peace in household (my almost college bound son, the only one left at home, thankfully totally understands the reasons for fasting, and I am quite frankly surprised and SO grateful that God has heard my prayers in this!) as the little squabbles between us are more harmful than the good fasting may do? I don't think at this point that my "example" of fasting is making him feel good, or helping myself or my husband. On the other hand, I feel terrible for not keeping the fast 100 pct. as I once did, and I do feel that the temptation to make even more excuses for myself to eat cheese and eggs etc. then becomes stronger when I am not at home (work, or going out to eat with a friend- "well, I'm eating this stuff anyway, so why not? " comes to mind and I cave in to it).

Anyway, I am sure this must have come up somewhere on this forum, and maybe I just did not see it? Thank you for being here, and I am happy to have joined and become a part of your forum. It feels comfortable already!

In IC XC,
Katerina

PS- I do know that I need to have the help of my spiritual father, but part of my problem is that I have not found someone who has replaced the one I had previously, and since there have been so many changes in my Parish over the past few years, that too has made things difficult. I do feel that a spiritual father really needs to KNOW you and your life and what you'd been through to advise you in the best way for your spiritual growth and guidance. I guess God will soon provide...patience and prayer and continual struggle!

[Father David Moser]

Katerina,

This issue about fasting is surely something your current husband knew about before you were married, no? What was his reaction then to your keeping a strict fast? Perhaps if he would agree, the two of you could make some appointments with your priest to discuss this with him in the light of your marriage. This would give both you and your husband a chance to express your feelings about this in a structured environment and give your priest a forum for giving you both instruction in this that would serve to strengthen your marriage rather than create stress.

As for the situation right at present. Dormition fast is only two weeks long so ask your husband if he would be ok with you going "on a diet" for your (spiritual) health for the next couple of weeks. Just let him know that your diet will be to eat only Vegan (no animal products at all) foods and that you don't expect him to have to go on the same diet. Sometimes changing the word from "fast" to "diet" helps lessen the emotional "guilt factor" in a situation like this. As I'm sure you are aware, many Russians tend to be somewhat relaxed about the fasts. Once when I expressed surprise to a close friend (a matushka) that her family was suddenly being so strict about this fast she replied, "You don't mess around with the Mother of God". Surely the Bogorodista will watch over you in this as she has in everything else.

Fr David Moser

[Karena Hryniuk]

What do you think about consuming vitamin pills during periods of strict fast? Normally, these pills don't contain any animal ingredients, so basically it shouldn't be any problem, should it? Or would you regard this as a topic which should be discussed with one's priest?

This is an interesting question Dimitris. Possibly it depends if one takes routine supplements for maintaining health or not.?. When fasting we should expect our energies to be reduced making prayer more concentrated and less energy available to sin. But as we have seen in the past this is one of those circumstances where depending on ones Spiritual father, the advice may differ. We certainly have heard of people taking supplements during a fasting period (only) to keep energy levels up in attempt to match the fast paced lifestyle...which quite possibly is a simultaneous lesson in itself for all of us to slow down and shhhh.

Fasting at the moment.

(sinner)
Karena

[Katerina]

Katerina,

This issue about fasting is surely something your current husband knew about before you were married, no? What was his reaction then to your keeping a strict fast? Perhaps if he would agree, the two of you could make some appointments with your priest to discuss this with him in the light of your marriage. This would give both you and your husband a chance to express your feelings about this in a structured environment and give your priest a forum for giving you both instruction in this that would serve to strengthen your marriage rather than create stress.

As for the situation right at present. Dormition fast is only two weeks long so ask your husband if he would be ok with you going "on a diet" for your (spiritual) health for the next couple of weeks. Just let him know that your diet will be to eat only Vegan (no animal products at all) foods and that you don't expect him to have to go on the same diet. Sometimes changing the word from "fast" to "diet" helps lessen the emotional "guilt factor" in a situation like this. As I'm sure you are aware, many Russians tend to be somewhat relaxed about the fasts. Once when I expressed surprise to a close friend (a matushka) that her family was suddenly being so strict about this fast she replied, "You don't mess around with the Mother of God". Surely the Bogorodista will watch over you in this as she has in everything else.

Fr David Moser

Father Bless!

You are right, he DID know of my fasting beforehand, as he met me again (we were sweethearts at 17) actually during the Dormition Fast 6 years ago exactly, and totally respected that then...do not know why he chafes at it a bit now, but yes it IS something we could sit down with our priest sometime soon and talk about it together.

How so very right you are, Russians are more relaxed about fasting. I am keeping the fast after a "bump" on Wednesday, and asking my husband to respect my "diet" by omitting things from my plate, not his ;-) I love matushka's response to "not messing around with the Mother of God! "

Yes, the Bogoroditsa has ALWAYS looked after me, and may she bless all of us during this fast, and let it be fruitful.

Gratefully,
In IC XC
Katerina

[Effie Ganatsios]

katerina, can I just tell you a little of how women cope with this problem here?

I am lucky in that fasting is considered the norm here. While there are lots of men that fast during our fast periods, others don't. Especially the younger ones.

There are lots of ways to keep your fast, even if your husband doesn't want to. Whether he fasts or not is his own private business and doesn't mean that you can't. You can prepare meals that can be combined e.g. meats can be prepared separately and vegetables can be prepared separately. For your husband's meals just add the cooked vegetables or pasta or whatever, 15 mins before the end of the cooking period. You can keep your portion of vegetables and with a substantial salad you will have no problems. Your husband can also eat his salad. If you're not using oil because of your fast, just add the dressing to his salad and only use lemon, salt and pepper on yours. Use lots of herbs to provide extra nourishment and make your fasting meals delicious. This is the way it has always been and need not be a problem.

It's quite easy to fast when others don't want to if you follow the above guideline for all meals.

Hope the above has been of some help. We fast from the 1st to the 15th of August, but I believe that your fasting period is just starting now. I don't remember how many days difference our calendars have.

Effie

[Father David Moser]

You can prepare meals

Part of Katerina's difficulty, I believe, is that her husband does some/most?/all? of the cooking - thus she has to convince him to cook in a way that allows her to keep the fast. (I understand this as at present I am typing with a cut finger tip from a chef's knife that found my finger amid the cabbage the other day.)


Hope the above has been of some help. We fast from the 1st to the 15th of August, but I believe that your fasting period is just starting now. I don't remember how many days difference our calendars have.

Just wanted to point out that all Orthodox Christians fast from August 1-15 for the Mother of God. There is, however, a difference in how various local Churches determine when Aug 1-15 falls. The so called "new calendar" Churches use the civil (Gregorian) calendar to determine when Aug 1-15 falls and the so called "old calendar" Churches use the older "Julian" calendar to determine when Aug 1-15 falls. At present the two systems of dating are 13 days apart and will remain at this spacing until the year 2100 when it will go to 14 days (but this then is a whole different discussion). The point though is that for all Orthodox Christians the date of the feasts and fasts is always the same, but there may be a difference of opinion of how that date is measured.

Fr David Moser

[Effie Ganatsios]

Just wanted to point out that all Orthodox Christians fast from August 1-15 for the Mother of God. There is, however, a difference in how various local Churches determine when Aug 1-15 falls. The so called "new calendar" Churches use the civil (Gregorian) calendar to determine when Aug 1-15 falls and the so called "old calendar" Churches use the older "Julian" calendar to determine when Aug 1-15 falls. At present the two systems of dating are 13 days apart and will remain at this spacing until the year 2100 when it will go to 14 days (but this then is a whole different discussion). The point though is that for all Orthodox Christians the date of the feasts and fasts is always the same, but there may be a difference of opinion of how that date is measured."




Fr David Moser



Thank you, Father David. That is what I meant to say of course but I said it wrongly.

Effie

[Nina]

Just wanted to point out that all Orthodox Christians fast from August 1-15 for the Mother of God. There is, however, a difference in how various local Churches determine when Aug 1-15 falls. The so called "new calendar" Churches use the civil (Gregorian) calendar to determine when Aug 1-15 falls and the so called "old calendar" Churches use the older "Julian" calendar to determine when Aug 1-15 falls. At present the two systems of dating are 13 days apart and will remain at this spacing until the year 2100 when it will go to 14 days (but this then is a whole different discussion). The point though is that for all Orthodox Christians the date of the feasts and fasts is always the same, but there may be a difference of opinion of how that date is measured.

Fr David Moser

I wish we all were with the 'Julian'... But that's me - I love tradition.

Concerning the fast: if the female has the role of the house chef, is it ok if she puts an "embargo", while letting everyone know in a nice, sweet way about it? Since most of the saints (and Panagia) urge(s) us to fast, since Christ Himself told us to.

I feel bad for those women who cook everything for the rest of the family and have to fast alone. However they receive lots of crowns when they inhale the aroma of the lamb they are cooking, but have to eat plain lentils themselves.

My gandmothers used to tell me that it is not good to cook forbiden things at all during lent (unless the spiritual father gives the permission in particular cases). They took care to scrub meticulously and boil all pans, utensils etc. before the lenten period began and there were no non-lenten foods at all in the house. I wish more spouses would support each other keeping the fasts and the family during fasting times. Patience and prayer.

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Katerina,


I am now blessed with being married again, to an Orthodox (cradle, such as I) man- same ethnic affiliation, too. The struggle I feel I have, is the rather stricter rules that I personally have been living by for fasting during lent. I have, for the last 12 years or so, fasted according to the rules for all the different fasts during the year. It has become difficult for me, because (1) my husband likes to cook! (yes, I am blessed, as he cooks well, and what woman wouldn't like a break from that sometimes?) (2) he never grew up fasting or knowing much about that. He then married outside the faith, had kids and for over 14 years brought them up in a different church (Baptist or so I think- since this is what his ex was) except for Pascha (which they were and still are in awe of).

Since we have been married, my fasting has been a bit of a sore spot with him, as every time we turn around, he feels like- it's lent again! I never have told him he needs to fast with me, but he feels the need to be "the same" and be "family" in that way. I try to be quiet about it and when he does cook fish, or puts cheese in a dish- I don't say anything. This fast (Dormition) is particularly important to me, as my first husband passed away during this season...the Theotokos had and continues to be my source of strength, and I feel for my spiritual growth, humility, obedience etc., that this is important...but, since it does cause problems still (I do see that my husband still does not grasp the connection and reasons for fasting- he has a rather "Catholic" -forgive me if I offend anyone here- outlook on the "giving something up" thing. He also brags about being able to put out a "feast" for a meal during lent using delicious foods that are totally lenten, which of course I have tried to explain is not the point.

I do the cooking in my house also. Leah understands my fasting yet cannot due to medical issues. It seems a bit different for us both and Effie has a great solution with the meals fixed piecemeal. Leah cannot not eat MOST foods. They hurt her stomach. SO when I cook lenten foods for myself, I also cook her nonlenten foods she can also eat. I enjoy cooking I don't mind cooking 2 separate meals at once. It is fun for me.We have also agreed as per the church to not look at each others plate.

I don't criticize her for not fasting and she does not criticize me for doing so knowing she can't. Our best meals are after the fast when we can eat from the same pot so to speak. For the first few days after a fasting period, I kinda go nuts cooking gourmet stuff. Then it tapers out to more realistic foods.

If the quantity of food of Lenten feasts your husband cooks is bothersome, my priest told me to just cut all portions in half and save the rest for another meal. At least you will be eating what he has prepared and not offending him for not. Anyway, I hope this helps even though we are mirror images here.

Paul

[Katerina]

Effie, thank your for your suggestions and Nina, how so very interesting to know different traditions!

Paul, it is good to know my husband has a fellow "cook" amongst other men in the world- Father David, you too! (oh, dear, hope your finger is ok!)

One of the things I come accross, is if I am at work (sometimes until 8pm), my dear hubby is so good in that he has dinner ready for me, knowing I will be hungry when I come home. Even though I have reminded him it is lent, I don't know if he truly forgets, or what, but I find that there is cheese in the dish he prepared for me , for eg.(not something that I can easily separate from the food I can eat on the plate, if you KWIM). So, in order not to offend or call attention to myself (because if I did, he'd be hurt, and then feel like he is being reprimanded, so to speak, for not fasting), I eat what is put in front of me. The next morning, when we discuss who will make a meal, I try to remind him without sounding like I am being a pain....he is a truly good person, but fasting to him was never important, and he dosen't quite get yet (hopefully someday he will) exactly how fasting is tied in to your spiritual life.
Sometimes, it can actually hurt the other person to overly try and explain when they cannot quite grasp the spirit of it.

Little by little over time. We have only been married 5 years, and I introduced him to "full blown" Orthodoxy ...he is cradle Orthodox, but his mother had South American influence of the very Catholic country, and she herself dosen't quite "get" it either. Prayer at home was not ever really done either, so that too is a discipline that is needed to further open your heart to understanding.

Oh...need to go to work to help with my part of the household expenses! Cannot be late. (yes, this forum is addicting, and it is better than coffee! :-)

In IC XC,
Katerina

[Maria Murray]

I have some questions about fasting that still puzzle me.

1. In a church we visited last Sunday, I was told to fast completely from all food (like before receiving communion) even if I WASN'T going to take communion that day. I never heard of this before. My friend said the rule is to never eat/drink anything before church regardless of communion. Is this rule only in certain jurisdictions and how did it get started? Also, how does this rule apply to children and nursing moms? I never know what to do in situations like this - I want to go by the rules of the parish I'm visiting but I also feel guilty not drinking before nursing and having a theological discussion with a 7-yr-old why he should fast before going to church and not take communion.

2. Practical question about children fasting - the priest told us kids should fast as much as they can, but I wanted to see if there are any parents here that know a good way to deal with fasting (cranky!) kids. When they cry and complain that they are hungry/thirsty, at what point do you give in and how do you soothe them? (side note: my Russian friend has 4 kids and they are strictly prohibited from taking any food/drink before communion. The kids often whine during Liturgy that they are so thirsty and old babushkas try to give them holy water! I say this because I think it is a much bigger difficulty to deal with kids fasting than to fast myself.)

[James Aubuchon]

As for not eating in the morning before communion I see no problem with kids doing that. However, in terms of keeping the fasts of the Church I have a real problem with expecting kids to do that. It is not wise to council people to have their kids fast. Fasting has to be a conscious decision by adults IMHO.

Jim

[Effie Ganatsios]

I have some questions about fasting that still puzzle me.

1. In a church we visited last Sunday, I was told to fast completely from all food (like before receiving communion) even if I WASN'T going to take communion that day. I never heard of this before. My friend said the rule is to never eat/drink anything before church regardless of communion. Is this rule only in certain jurisdictions and how did it get started? )

Maria, it's the same here in Greece. We don't eat before the liturgy and the first food we put in our mouths is the antidoro after the service.

Effie

[Mary]

I have some questions about fasting that still puzzle me.

1. In a church we visited last Sunday, I was told to fast completely from all food (like before receiving communion) even if I WASN'T going to take communion that day. I never heard of this before. My friend said the rule is to never eat/drink anything before church regardless of communion. Is this rule only in certain jurisdictions and how did it get started? Also, how does this rule apply to children and nursing moms? I never know what to do in situations like this - I want to go by the rules of the parish I'm visiting but I also feel guilty not drinking before nursing and having a theological discussion with a 7-yr-old why he should fast before going to church and not take communion.
2. Practical question about children fasting - the priest told us kids should fast as much as they can, but I wanted to see if there are any parents here that know a good way to deal with fasting (cranky!) kids. When they cry and complain that they are hungry/thirsty, at what point do you give in and how do you soothe them? (side note: my Russian friend has 4 kids and they are strictly prohibited from taking any food/drink before communion. The kids often whine during Liturgy that they are so thirsty and old babushkas try to give them holy water! I say this because I think it is a much bigger difficulty to deal with kids fasting than to fast myself.)

I fast even if I am not going to commune that day, which is very rare. It's become a habit. I wasn't told to, so I'm sure it's not a RULE. I just can't eat before going to church. It takes my focus off the liturgy if I'm thinking of food before I run out the door.

My kids are 8 1/2 and 6. They usually have something to drink in the morning - a cup of chocolate milk. Sometimes, they finish it all, sometimes just a bit and sometimes they don't want any of it. But they don't eat anything before they go. When they're ready, they will fast completely.

As for fasting during regular fasting seasons, Wednesdays and Fridays.... I'm in charge of the food, they eat what I cook. They have several Lenten meals that they like so much, that they ask for them all the time. I do let them drink their milk and and they sprinkle a bit of cheese on their spaghetti. They know the fasting seasons, and I want them to learn that true fasting is more than just about food, and we get many opportunities to talk about such things, because they are observant and they do get curious. I love orthodoxy! Makes it so easy to talk to children of important matters! =)

In Christ,
Mary.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I

As for fasting during regular fasting seasons, Wednesdays and Fridays.... I'm in charge of the food, they eat what I cook. They have several Lenten meals that they like so much, that they ask for them all the time. I do let them drink their milk and and they sprinkle a bit of cheese on their spaghetti. They know the fasting seasons, and I want them to learn that true fasting is more than just about food, and we get many opportunities to talk about such things, because they are observant and they do get curious. I love orthodoxy! Makes it so easy to talk to children of important matters! =)

In Christ,
Mary.

You're a good mother, Mary. Children learn by example.

I also tend to keep things simple. Lentil or bean soup on Wednesday and fish on Friday. Both soups are delicious and a total meal in themselves and there are plenty of delicious ways to prepare fish. Knowing what I am going to cook beforehand means that I don't even need to think about what to prepare etc.

Effie

[Michael Stickles]

1. In a church we visited last Sunday, I was told to fast completely from all food (like before receiving communion) even if I WASN'T going to take communion that day. I never heard of this before. My friend said the rule is to never eat/drink anything before church regardless of communion. Is this rule only in certain jurisdictions and how did it get started?

I saw this explanation on the site for a Greek Orthodox Church in California:


Orthodoxy insists on a strict fast before Communion, and nothing can be eaten or drunk after the previous midnight. In cases of sickness or genuine necessity, a Father Confessor can grant dispensations from this communion fast. The night before receiving Holy Communion one should read the Communion prayers, retire early, avoiding social engagements. Before going to church, children ask their parents for forgiveness, and parents, likewise, ask forgiveness of their children. Whether preparing to receive Holy Communion or not, we should not eat or drink anything prior to attending the Divine Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy is our invitation to partake of the Lord's banquet and we are to receive the Holy Gift, in other words, Holy Communion, or the "antidoron", which means, "instead of the Gift".

OrthodoxInfo.com says something similar:


When we do not commune at Liturgy, we receive antidoron (an-dee-tho-ron, with a hard "d" and a soft "d," as in "the") at the end of Liturgy (that is, blessed bread which substitutes for the Gifts; thus, antidoron, "instead of the Gifts"). Those who commune during the Liturgy receive antidoron or antidoron and wine immediately after communing and should not take it again at the end of Liturgy. Since it is blessed, the antidoron should be carefully handled and no particles of it should be allowed to fall on the ground. This means that children must be carefully watched while consuming antidoron and taught to treat it with pious reverence. It should be received from the Priest at the end of Liturgy and immediately consumed. Since antidoron is given in place of the Gifts, it is also received on an empty stomach, for which reason Orthodox Christians do not eat or drink anything from the midnight before the Divine Liturgy, whether communing or not.

As far as whether there are (or should/shouldn't be) differences among jurisdictions, I have no idea. I know that the OCA site only talks about fasting before taking communion; no mention one way or the other of what to do if you're not partaking. Not sure if that indicates their practice or if it's just an omission.

In Christ,
Mike

[Nina]

I have some questions about fasting that still puzzle me.

1. In a church we visited last Sunday, I was told to fast completely from all food (like before receiving communion) even if I WASN'T going to take communion that day. I never heard of this before. My friend said the rule is to never eat/drink anything before church regardless of communion. Is this rule only in certain jurisdictions and how did it get started?

Yes, this is natural. I do not know the origin and if it is a canon of the Church or not. But this is what happens. Complete fasting before Liturgy. As for the rest of your questions I have no idea, sorry. Why do not you talk to your spiritual father and receive guidance for you and your children according to their age and his discernement? You do not have to conform about fasting to all the parishes you may visit when you have the blessing of your own spiritual father.

[Father David Moser]

In response to Maria's questions. It is the custom in the Russian Church to take antidoron fasting (and thus even if one is not receiving the mysteries, one should wait to break the fast with antidoron. If there is a special reason why this is not possible (you mentioned nursing mothers - also a diabetic or a person taking regular medication may need to eat and/or drink a little, etc) then it is a pastoral situation to be addressed between oneself and one's priest.

As for children, I generally suggest that parents continue to allow their children dairy products during the fasts for health/growth reasons - although one family responded that they drink soy milk all the time... The way to develop the fasting practice in children then is to slowly limit the amount of dairy products (diary but no meat, then only milk, then a glass of milk at each meal, then one glass a day, etc) As my children grew up we talked about fasting and why we fast and so on. Each of my children just one day during a fast came up and said that they were not going to drink milk on fast days and thus they chose when they were ready to begin keeping the fasting discipline.

Children will, for the most part eat what you fix for them, so just fix nutritious lenten foods for them on fast days - if you start them from day one, then it will be "normal" and these will be the foods that they learn to prefer as adults.

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Keep also in mind that where rarely communing has taken root over many years this is often accompanied by lethargic spiritual habits. Thus in a family where communion and confession rarely occur Sunday morning begins like any other morning; radio, gather around the kitchen table, read the newspaper, have breakfast. Then off to church for the service. This becomes so much the norm no one notices the problem.

In a word- fasting, regular confession, maintaining a certain spiritual space in one's home especially from Saturday through Sunday and regular participation in the Eucharist all go hand in hand. Once you do it for years it becomes deeply ingrained as part of ones spiritual preparation for Sunday morning. Then during those rare times when the Eucharist is not received (very rare in modern practice, as those who confess and commune tend to do this weekly) it becomes natural to be fasting and treat Sunday as a sacred day. And gradually this becomes a pattern for ones whole life.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Maria Murray]

Thank you all for the thoughful informative responses! I admit I'm embarrased to not have known such a basic concept as fasting before receiving the antidoron. The ongoing fasts have been working out pretty well with the children but it's the complete Sunday morning fast that's been hard for them and this is something I need to always work on.
Maria

[Olga]

Regarding breastfeeding mothers and fasting, there is a thread on this forum from late 2004 called Fasting and Pregnancy. It has much that is useful.

[Michael Astley]

I'm very grateful for this thread. Thank you for all of the comments and information. It has been some time since I was last here and much of my own understanding has grown.

I now have very much more of an awareness of the passions than I once did and now think that I see the importance and place of fasting and abstinence. I mention both because, while I know that fasting is commonly used as a sort of "catch-all" term, it seems that traditionally, we do draw a distinction between the two. I know that M.C.Steenberg (pace) mentioned that the distinction between the two exists in non-Orthodox traditions but I'm not so sure that it isn't a part of our own tradition either. Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable than I could clarify.

I say this because, for example, if we look at the ancient Benedictine fasting rule, which is Orthodox in origin, (and which is the one that I try to follow in my own not very good way - I'm still reasonably new to fasting, after only a couple of years), we do see that Wednesdays and Fridays require total fasting until the ninth hour, after which abstinence is practised. Also, some time ago, I came across some canons that forbid fasting on Saturdays and Sundays. I forget the exact canons now but one of our clergy or others may remember. This obviously refers specifically to fasting (taking no food) and not to abstinence (abstaining from certain types of food), otherwise we would all be in violation of these canons.

I know a nun who was horrified to learn that the Benedictine fasting rule allows for fish and oil on days of abstinence. She saw it as lax and as flouting the traditions of Orthodoxy. I think that there is a danger of looking at these things in too legalistic a way. I tried to explain that, in many of the 1st millennium Orthodox countries in the West where different fasting rules were followed, the Greek fasting rule wouldn't make sense to the people because of what was locally available. I imagine that this is how different fasting traditions developed in different places. I'm trying to imagine a priest in 6th-century Orthodox Britain telling his faithful not to use olive oil during Lent, when most of them would never have seen an olive and would probably have never heard of olive oil. I imagine it would have been imported via the trade routes but that only the very wealthy would know of the existence of such things, and it wouldn't have been plentiful for certain. It would be as if I, in Britain in 2007, were to say that I'm abstaining from guinips as a Lenten discipline. The guinip is a lovely, sweet, flavoursome, much sought-after fruit that grows in the Caribbean but goes off very quickly and so cannot be exported. I never eat them and they are not accessible to me. That's how I imagine olive oil in 7th-century Britain to have been.

My own thoughts - and I do not set them up as authoritative in any way, for they are only my musings - are that once there is a fasting rule that is Orthodox, and that has been blessed to our use by our spiritual father, then we ought to quietly try to stick to that with prayer and humility, being mindful of the purpose of fasting. We shouldn't take pleasure in comparing our own fasting practices to those of others to see whose is more rigorous. As it happens, if comparisons must be drawn, while the Benedictine rule may be more lax than the traditional Greek/Eastern rule where abstinence is concerned, (because fish and oil are not verboten), it is actually more rigorous where fasting is concerned because it insists on a strict fast until 3p.m. every Wednesday and Friday, and on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays during Lent. So if anything, it balances itself out. Yet I just don't think it's helpful to us to think of fasting in these terms. Perhaps I don't understand properly because I haven't been Orthodox for very long. She is a nun, after all. Does anybody have any thoughts on the matter?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

A few thoughts on what you wrote Michael:


Also, some time ago, I came across some canons that forbid fasting on Saturdays and Sundays. I forget the exact canons now but one of our clergy or others may remember. This obviously refers specifically to fasting (taking no food) and not to abstinence (abstaining from certain types of food), otherwise we would all be in violation of these canons.

By no fasting on Saturdays and Sundays we mean meat, dairy products and other normal fare may be eaten. The only Saturdays on which no food is taken is on Holy Saturday (ie the Saturday before Pascha). At the conclusion of the Vesperal Liturgy however bread and wine are blessed for the sustenance of the faithful. After this point since these have been partaken of plus the Eucharist has been received, many partake of something Lenten. However a total fast (ie completely refraining from food and liquids) would begin from 6pm in preparation for the Paschal Vigil and Liturgy. Probably there are different practices for this last part but variations on this is what I have most often witnessed.

Something similar would also apply if Saturday was the day before either Nativity or Theophany except that there does not appear to be a total fast from food. Thus in the Typikon section of the Jordanville Calendar for Dec 24 it says:


The eve of the Nativity of Christ is always a strict fast: food with lenten oil but without fish is eaten during the evening. But when the Eve falls on Saturday or Sunday then after Liturgy which in present practice occurs not in the evening but in the morning at the normal time, bread & some wine are permitted to be eaten.

Most times however what actually occurs is that light Lenten food is eaten after the Liturgy (ie at lunch time). After the Nativity Vigil a holy dinner is served which is the last lenten meal before next day's Feast. It consists of certain predictable lenten dishes and can be highly ritualized especially in Ukrainian tradition. This meal has made somewhat of a comeback here in the west with everyone bringing food for a lenten potluck which is served in the church hall after the Vigil. This is what we do in our parish.

One of the most important aspects of the present fasting rule of Orthodoxy is how it serves to tie all of the faithful together. Certain national and personal variations are found. But these are slight with a recognizable rule which is different for the laity and monastics.

Someone on this forum mentioned something which happened to them and which I had heard as a general account many times before. That is when left to their own means they were able to do many, many prostrations or prayers every day as part of their rule. However once they were given the obedience to do a few prostrations or prayers daily by a spiritual father they weren't able to complete these.

The lesson here is that the ascetic sense of the Church must be grounded in a humble obedience which is exactly what the fast as described on the daily calendars points to. It is extremely easy for self will to creep into our ascetic life and mark it unless we take strong measures to combat this. That is why it is so important then to follow the universal fasting rule of the Church as a layman in its lay form and a monastic in its monastic form. Of course there are variations and exceptions to this. But this needs solid guidance and a blessing.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John King]

Dear all,

I was sometimes a bit confused about the elements of any particular fast day or period until I found an excellent on-line calendar and fasting guide on the link below. The calendar is Russian but you can go between old and new calendars depending on your jurisdiction.

http://days.pravoslavie.ru/en/Days/20070616.htm

Best wishes,

John

[Fr Stephen Maxfield]

The Fasting rules we now observe are, as I understand it, those practiced on Mt Athos in the 14th century. These rules are stricter than those previously observed in Constantinople which were those followed in the Studion Monastery. Am I right and can any body tell me what the earlier rules were?
Also Fasting is mentioned on Wednesdays and Fridays in the Didache (said to be 1st/2nd century - though I have my doubts) What did fasting at that period actually mean?
Fr Stephen Maxfield

[Simon]

Whatever rule you adopt, Sinjin, you can be sure it will be wrong.

I couldn't agree with your sentiment more. I travel widely round Europe, including the Holy Mountain, and every parish priest tells you something different: so perhaps I would phrase your sentiment the other way round, and say , 'Whatever rule you adopt, Sinjin, you can be sure it will be right.'
(i.e. I ask the priest of whatever church I might hope to have Communion in how I should behave, and follow what he says.)

[Anna K.]

I'd like to ask you about when to start the Wednesday or Friday fast and when it stops.

When the liturgical day starts with the evening service / vigil at 6 pm (please correct me if I'm wrong), does the fast also start Tuesday 6 pm and Thursday 6 pm and does it end Wednesday 6 pm and Friday 6 pm?

Hope I'm clear. I didn't get an answer from my cathecumen teacher, I can't remember what she answered but I got the feeling I was being too complicated and detailed about fasting. Maybe she thought it's too early on in our studies to talk about that. But I'm still in need of an answer...

In Christ
Anna

[Herman Blaydoe]

You will probably get more than one answer. Liturgically, the day runs from Vespers to Vespers, but most people follow the simpler convention of midnight to midnight, so that Wednesday and Friday fasting would simply be the regular meals (or lack thereof) for that day. I am not sure that there is a single "right" answer. This is Orthodoxy, remember. It is not like we are an "organized" religion. I suspect the real answer will be what works best for you in your particular situation, with guidance from your priest?

If I have misspoken, I eagerly await correction.

Herman

[Anna K.]

Thank you Herman, you are right, this is Orthodoxy and how beautiful it is...!

Maybe that's one reason I didn't get the straight answer at first from my teacher.
Typical of course for a new beginner to want those answers. I will talk to my priest eventually. The reason I asked was actually that I feel I'm depriving part of my kids' enjoyment in our family Friday-night pizza when they look at me with long faces: Aren't you really having any? SO I had that idea of the fasting day maybe starting differently... But actually on second thought they usually forget me not having pizza as soon as they turn to their own plates ;).

In Christ
Anna

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Anna,

If you would like a lenten pizza recipe, please PM me.

[Father David Moser]

I'd like to ask you about when to start the Wednesday or Friday fast and when it stops.

When the liturgical day starts with the evening service / vigil at 6 pm (please correct me if I'm wrong), does the fast also start Tuesday 6 pm and Thursday 6 pm and does it end Wednesday 6 pm and Friday 6 pm?

The fast always is counted from sleep to sleep. Thus, for example, it begins when you go to sleep (retire for the night) Tues evening and ends when you go to sleep Wednesday evening. This means that the "waking hours" in which you fast are from when you awaken on Wed until you retire for the night. The same routine goes for when the longer fasts begin and end.

The practice that has arisen of starting the fast "before vespers" on one day and ending it "after vespers" on the next is a relatively recent innovation and one which is not practical in the long term. My wife and I ended up switching our "date night" (such as it is) to Thurs because it was a whole lot easier than trying to figure out what to eat at what time of the day. I know that the idea sounds good - but in practice it is filled with potholes (like what do you do with an early dinner invitation - it should be fasting, but its before 6pm and ...) Now I suppose if you had a rigid routine about when meals begin and end and no food in the meantime (such as you would find in a monastery) and you attended the daily services (as you would in a monastery) that this kind of fasting schedule might be doable - but even monasteries don't go in for this routine. I would not suggest this practice for anyone unless there was some extreme situation that made it an absolute necessity (and I have yet to discover such a situation).

Fr David Moser

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr David wrote:


Now I suppose if you had a rigid routine about when meals begin and end and no food in the meantime (such as you would find in a monastery) and you attended the daily services (as you would in a monastery) that this kind of fasting schedule might be doable - but even monasteries don't go in for this routine. I would not suggest this practice for anyone unless there was some extreme situation that made it an absolute necessity (and I have yet to discover such a situation).


Monasteries in the west also follow the particular fasting regime for the day from get up time to go to sleep time because this is more in accord with correct practice. After all, after the Vesperal Liturgy of Holy Saturday we don't say, "well now that we've had Vespers it's Pascha. Bring out the kubasa & sirnaya pascha." (altho we might get tempted in that direction by then :) ). No, Pascha and its accompanying food must await the completion of Liturgy of the next day.

My own sense from the Patristic witness is that Liturgy is meant as the culmination & beginning of every liturgical day. Vespers is thus not meant as a sudden change but rather the beginning of a gradual shift to a new day which begins with Vespers (sunset) and culminates in Liturgy (sunrise). This perspective is borne out in the practice of All Night Vigil which in traditional practice involves a total fast (except for the litya wine & bread which must be complete by midnight) from Vespers- ie before Vespers- until after Liturgy.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anna K.]

Thank you Fathers David and Raphael for your answers!

Actually it feels much easier now that I have a direction to follow, and one that makes sense.

In fact, my older son can't eat cheese and we make a special kind for him anyway, so I'll just add another kind for me on the pan into the oven! So Paul, I'll probably need the lenten pizza...

In Christ,
Anna

[Paul Cowan]

Well, since you made this request public, I will share my deep dark secrets.


ok, here goes but remember creativity is the brilliance of cooking.

Crust: pick one
premade dough from the freezer/ grocery store
tortilla shells
english muffins
baby bagels

Toppings: pick as many as the base will hold
Traditional Theme:
tomatoes; for sure
onions
mushrooms
pepper varieties mix colored bells
olives; yuck
pepperonici or other pepper varieties
squash; crook neck or zuccini
brocolli
cauliflower
garlic; for sure, not powdered
Fresh herbs; basil, oregano

German Theme:
potatoes; diced very small
Thinly sliced cabbage or very dried saurkraut
tomatoes
onions
garlic
Fresh herbs; rosemary
colored peppers
brocolli

Asian Theme:
artichoke hearts; quartered
bamboo shoots/ water chestnut;
seeds; sunflower, pine nut, pumpkin
baby bok choy; quartered per slice
fresh herbs; easy on the thyme
fresh ginger grated
colored peppers
brocolli
cauliflower
baby corn drained

Mexican Theme:
tomatoes
corn cut from the cob
avacodo slice per slice
jalapenos
Fresh herbs; cilantro
onion
colored peppers
precooked cubed carrots

Kitchen Sink Theme;
What's in the fridge?

Seafood Theme:
tomatoes,
onions
mushrooms
craw-dad tails
shrimp
lobster pieces
smoked oysters
clams
Fresh herbs
colored peppers
prepared seaweed; from asian markets

Southern Theme:
Tomatoes
onions
drained & washed can blackeye peas
garlic
crookneck squash
peppers; all varieties
corn cut from the cob
fresh cut okra
Fresh herbs

Tuber Theme:
Precook all tubers 3/4 done diced small then add to pie
potatoes
yams
carrots
turnips
parsnips
onions
yucca
tarro
yiccuma (sp)
etc...
Fresh herbs

Cheating Theme:
Tomatoes
onions
firm cubed tofu
soy cheese
soy fake meat crumbles
colored peppers
fresh herbs

On days you can have olive oil, douce everything above in it! Cook on 325f until all is hot and cooked through. You may want to put a tray under the pies to catch any dripping.

Mediteranian Theme: more of a desert pizza
sugar and cinnamon
pineapple pieces VERY well drained
sliced mango/ papaya
raisins/ black and white
dried/ soaked drained figs/ dates

The sky is the limit. Many items are consistent in all pies. The variation comes from what combinations you use them. You can have a themed night using decorations to augment the pizza. Napkins, music, clothes, etc...

Have fun with it, experiment. They probably will think you have lost your mind. But tell, them this is no different than if it were not on a pizza shell.

Chef,
Paul

PS; Forgive me if I left any specific country theme out.

Australian Theme:
Tomatoes
onions
fresh herbs
crocodile, no, wait, that is meat
Scratch this one

[Nina]

So many themes! Thank you dear Chef Paul! The tuber one, I thought it refers to surfing, but no it is just the shape of the veggies. Can you please work on an Orthodox theme? Or are these all Orthodox by default because you are and because they are lenten? Have you tried them all? Which one is your favorite? Which one is the favorite of Leah? Family's? Am I asking a lot of questions?

[Paul Cowan]

Can you please work on an Orthodox theme? Or are these all Orthodox by default because you are and because they are lenten?

They are all lenten. If I had to make an Orthodox theme, it would be to have St. Euphrosynos sitting on the table in front of my plate so I don't gorge again regardless of the food's theme.

I hate saurkraut. Almost as much as I hate brussel sprouts. I suppose I could have added them to the German Theme pizza.

The seafood one is my favorite. My family is not Orthodox but does eat vegetarian if I cook for them. They are at the mercy of the cook. ;p

PC

There is more on the Lenten recipe thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3593&highlight=lenten+recipes). My favorite is still the 5 can casserole.

[Olga]

Australian Theme:
Tomatoes
onions
fresh herbs
crocodile, no, wait, that is meat
Scratch this one

Nice try, Paul, for the Aussie theme - but you forgot the VEGEMITE!! :))))

(For our British friends, Vegemite is similar, but far more pungent, than Promite or Marmite. For all others, it is a spread made from yeast extract, looks like axle grease, and the taste is indescribable in most senses of the word.)

[Father David Moser]

Australian Theme:
Tomatoes
onions
fresh herbs
crocodile, no, wait, that is meat
Scratch this one

In the opinon of Archbishop Hilaron of Sydney and Austalia (ROCOR) crocodile is the equivalent of fish. Yes he was indeed asked about this and that was his answer.

Fr David Moser

[Paul Cowan]

In the opinon of Archbishop Hilaron of Sydney and Austalia (ROCOR) crocodile is the equivalent of fish. Yes he was indeed asked about this and that was his answer.


If this is the case, then this also opens up alligators and we got plenty of them around here. You can do all kinds of recipes with alligator. Little greasy, but that's ok. Kinda tastes like, well, you know, chicken. very greasy chicken.

Paul

[Olga]

Chicken? I once tried crocodile, and it tasted more like fish. Perhaps it was a saltwater croc, not a freshwater one. :)

Interesting advice from Vladika Hilarion, it got me thinking. Being the thoughtful person that he is, perhaps he based the "croc as fish" advice on the fact that crocs are reptiles, and, like fish, are "cold-blooded".

[Effie Ganatsios]

They are all lenten. If I had to make an Orthodox theme, it would be to have St. Euphrosynos sitting on the table in front of my plate so I don't gorge again regardless of the food's theme.

I hate saurkraut. Almost as much as I hate brussel sprouts. I suppose I could have added them to the German Theme pizza.

The seafood one is my favorite. My family is not Orthodox but does eat vegetarian if I cook for them. They are at the mercy of the cook. ;p

PC

There is more on the Lenten recipe thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3593&highlight=lenten+recipes). My favorite is still the 5 can casserole.

Paul, you hate sauerkraut! I just finished carving the hearts out of 10 cabbages and filling the cone shaped spaces with salt. I have to leave them for a couple of days so that the leaves will open. I will then put them in two barrels I have especially for this purpose and fill the barrels with brine. The barrels will then be put in our cellar where the temperature is just right - neither too hot nor too cold. Apart from blowing through a plastic tube that ensures the brine circulates, nothing else will be done until the day before Christmas.

I will then remove, lovely, crisp, yellow cabbage leaves and stuff them with a mixture of mince and rice. This dish is a Christmas speciality of this region and the cabbage rolls are called yiaprakia. Everyone here goes mad for them and it took me quite a few years to be able to make the sauerkraut correctly. In fact, women compare their yiaprakia to see which ones are best! Sort of like an apple pie contest in your part of the world............ The sauerkraut and its liquid are full of vitamin C - apparently the fermentation that takes place produces something else as well - phytochemicals I think - that are very beneficial for our immune systems. In the olden days, people here would drink a small glass of sauerkraut liquid for their health.

This whole procedure is usually done just before St. Catherine's day each year, but I won't be here then so I did them now.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Nice try, Paul, for the Aussie theme - but you forgot the VEGEMITE!! :))))

(For our British friends, Vegemite is similar, but far more pungent, than Promite or Marmite. For all others, it is a spread made from yeast extract, looks like axle grease, and the taste is indescribable in most senses of the word.)


Oh, oh Olga...........Vegemite!!!!!! I love it. I can get Marmite here but it is just not the same.


Vegemite is an acquired taste, but a little spread on toast with butter is heaven. I intend to bring back 2 large jars of the stuff.... no one else likes it so it'll probably last quite a while.

I read that Mother Gabriela's evening meal was a rusk (frigania) in hot water to which Marmite had been added. I tried it and it tastes horrible.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Exotic meat :

There is a restaurant in Athens which specializes in this kind of food.

Crocodile
Buffalo
Kangaroo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lots of other meats that I can't remember at the moment - I think some snakes and sharks were also mentioned! There was a news report about it last week. One of our intelligent reporters started asking what countries these meats were imported from. I can understand Brazil, Argentina, etc., but then he asked : "And what about kangaroo meat? Which country is it imported from? "

Effie

[Vera L.]

Chicken? I once tried crocodile, and it tasted more like fish. Perhaps it was a saltwater croc, not a freshwater one. :)

Interesting advice from Vladika Hilarion, it got me thinking. Being the thoughtful person that he is, perhaps he based the "croc as fish" advice on the fact that crocs are reptiles, and, like fish, are "cold-blooded".

That is why he said it!)) I remember that discussian at one of the Australian Russian Orthodox Youth Conferences a few years back.
It was followed up with a discussion about what the meaning behind lent actually is, and that the focus isn't to figure out new foods to eat during lent ie. crocs.
Vera

[Father David Moser]

That is why he said it!)) I remember that discussian at one of the Australian Russian Orthodox Youth Conferences a few years back.
It was followed up with a discussion about what the meaning behind lent actually is, and that the focus isn't to figure out new foods to eat during lent ie. crocs.
Vera

Was I there? (Canberra 2004) Or did this discussion occur at two different Syezdi?

Fr David Moser

[Nicolaj]

There is always the RC possibility of fasting, you take a cow or a pig or something else eatable but forbidden while it is fasten time.
Bring it in front of the church there baptise it on the name Lobster, Tuna, etc. Thereafter you bring the new tuna to the kitchen and no rules are broken!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

P.S. for days where fish is also forbidden you might baptise the cattle on names like Sauerkraut etc!

[Eric Waltemate D.C., L.Ac]

Chicken? I once tried crocodile, and it tasted more like fish. Perhaps it was a saltwater croc, not a freshwater one. :)

Interesting advice from Vladika Hilarion, it got me thinking. Being the thoughtful person that he is, perhaps he based the "croc as fish" advice on the fact that crocs are reptiles, and, like fish, are "cold-blooded".


Yes, but they have bones and a dorsal nerve cord unlike most invertebrates.

I was under the impression that if it had a dorsal nerve cord and red blood, it was Verboten.

Otherwise it's like the Cajuns being allowed to eat muskrat because it swims in the water as well. (Old RC mix up.)

[Father David Moser]

Yes, but they have bones and a dorsal nerve cord unlike most invertebrates.

I was under the impression that if it had a dorsal nerve cord and red blood, it was Verboten.

All fish have bone and a dorsal nerve cord. That isn't the defining factor. We consider first the presence of discernable blood (which doesn't exist in most invertibrates) which indicates the presence of a soul and second whether the blood is cold or warm (cold blooded animals having an inferior soul).

Fr David Moser

[Vera L.]

Was I there? (Canberra 2004) Or did this discussion occur at two different Syezdi?

Fr David Moser

Father Bless.
I think so =?
The discussion on crocodiles i think has been going ever since it was brought up that first time in Canberra! Maybe it was discussed again somewhere else. I have lost track!
Btw Father David when are you coming to Aussie again?
Vera

[Effie Ganatsios]

Fasting's not really about what food to eat and what not to eat, is it?

Someone else has already mentioned the fact that eating 3 plates of very expensive lobster technically is fasting. Technically. Elder Porphyrios, whose book I am studying at the moment, says that with the Grace of God, a fruit is as nourishing as a full breakfast with milk, toast, egg, etc.
The most important thing is to discipline ourselves.

During fasting periods, limiting the quantity of our food is the least we can do.

Read these wonderful words :

"Fasting
There is both a physical and a spiritual fast. In the physical fast the body abstains from food and drink. In the spiritual fast, the faster abstains from evil intentions, words and deeds. One who truly fasts abstains from anger, rage, malice, and vengeance. One who truly fasts abstains from idle and foul talk, empty rhetoric, slander, condemnation, flattery, lying and all manner of spiteful talk. In a word, a real faster is one who withdraws from all evil.

As much as you subtract from the body, so much will you add to the strength of the soul.

Holy Hierarch Basil the Great"

As a bonus, we also benefit in other ways :

"Seest thou what fasting does: it heals illnesses, drives out demons, removes wicked thoughts, makes the heart pure. If someone has even been seized by an impure spirit, let him know that this kind, according to the word of the Lord, "goeth not out but by prayer and fasting" (Matthew 17:21).

Saint Athanasius the Great

Effie