Patron saints

[Len Northfield]

What does it mean to have a patron saint, is this the same as one's name saint?

I was baptised into Orthodoxy in May this year but as a 43 year old father of four we decided that, rather than change my name, we could leave it as Leonard as there is an Orthodox St Leonard. Unfortunately I'm having difficulty finding out much about him.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

len

[Matthew Panchisin]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

I found this information by doing a search on the search engine Google. http://www.odox.net/Icons-Leonard.htm##1

St. Leonard was first a hermit, later Abbot of the monastery of Noblac (mid-6th c.). He is known for having obtained from King Clovis the right to set free any prisoner whom he felt should be released from prison. Thus, he is the patron Saint of those imprisoned.

In Christ,

Matthew

[Richard McBride]

Blessed of the Lord Matthew Panchisin

The URL you gave to Len Northfield is one of the unattached (some say 'renegade') monastery groups which abound in America. In Europe these splinter groups are not allowed, so they are attracted to the US, where sects abound (even covens) but religion is held in check.

I do not personally recall the people of St. Hilarion (in Austin, Texas), unless they came from an earlier monastery in Blanco, Texas. But these individualistic types are all over the country and one must be careful in passing on (i.e.: sponsoring) their information.

This is not to pass judgment on them as persons. They may very well be good people who are earnestly seeking the Lord. But as with EVERYONE who has split from Orthodoxy, they have done it by seeking their own initiatives -- by following something outside Orthodoxy. Indeed, they are inevitably driven in directions away from Orthodoxy. They seek their OWN version of 'truth', in effect claiming that they somehow know better than that which the Fathers have given us.

One of the first tip-offs to non-canonical groups is their liberal use of the term, "traditional Orthodox". They press this term, for their use of it is the only way they observe either 'tradition' or 'Orthodoxy'. Their purpose is neither. In this case, the Western version of Milan Synod seeks to establish the Western Rite usage outside canonical channels, outside the canons of Orthodoxy, under their own self-authority.

Do not be fooled by these types. There are many of them unattached to any Patriarchal authority, just as there are many others who are Uniate (Byzantine Roman Catholic) who attempt to ride on the coat tails of Patriarchal Orthodoxy. Be suspicious of any unknown, unproven web site.

richard mcb

[Loretta]

Dear Richard,

"... just as there are many others who are Uniate (Byzantine Roman Catholic) who attempt to ride on the coat tails of Patriarchal Orthodoxy."

I don't think there is such a thing as Byzantine Roman Catholic. Just wanted to clarify http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif.

[Herman Blaydoe]

If St. Leonard is a pre-schism saint, then he is an Orthodox saint, regardless. The folks at St. Hilarion have done a wonderful job of cataloging pre-schism Orthodox saints and produce a very nice western saints calendar. The Russian and Greek menaions seem to forget that there are other than simply Slavic and Hellenic saints. I have corresponded with Fr. Aidan (the abbot) for some years now. He seems quite sincere in pursuing a traditional Orthodoxy and, other than following a resurrected Western Rite, I have found nothing that falls outside the teachings of Orthodoxy. He goes beyond Byzantine Orthodoxy, perhaps, but there are those who make a reasonable case that Orthodoxy is bigger than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, beautiful as it may be.

Herman

[Richard McBride]

Dear Loretta

Considering the heated nature of arguments which have traditionally (since about the beginning of the 17thC) broken out over this issue of the Uniate Churches, and added to that the curious silence it receives in the West (where I have heard the Uniates are placed at the far end of the trough in the Roman feeding line) -- considering these two ranges of volatility and silence, I am not surprised at the ambiguity covering the matter. And I have no hope of removing very much of that ambiguity.

I bring it up for the sake of newly Chrismated Orthodox, who tend to look at all things through the ruby glow of their past ecumenism -- which too often includes an outright tolerance for error. But I realize that the cost of mentioning as much will not only ruffle the feathers of the neo Orthodox, but also the Uniates. And while I am sorry for the latter, I also consider the former ruffling necessary.

I think Orthodoxy was not preserved by imagining, all this time, that these issues merely point to similar ducks in the same pond (an expression my first Episcopalian father confessor was wont to use).

So, if this is the focus of my comments, it was done at the expense of addressing the wide world of Uniates out there. I addressed only the Roman version, who have taken up the Eastern mechanics, but who pay homage to the "Holy Father" in the Vatican. These are then, Roman Catholics who participate in a Byzantine rite.

There is a plethora of others. There are the Armenians, the Maronites, the Chaldeans, the Melkites, the Hungarians, and still others. There are a number of Greek splinter groups to which I referred in another message. All of these people use Liturgies and Rites which range from the approximation of the Byzantine form of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, through a far flung range, including that of the English mass (as Saint Hilarion in Austin uses) tto the Alexandrian Rite of the Copts and Ethiopians.

Someone like Justin K., who is more informed on these things than am I, could do a much better job of explaining all this. My concern is only for Orthodox who are unclear about the distinctions which encircle that which is Orthodoxy versus everything else. For everything else falls into a form of syncretism when it attempts to patch up a bit of Byzantine here and a little Old Anglican there.

Any Orthodox who dabbles in those heresies is leaving his ability to grow in Orthodoxy in jeopardy. Growing in the knowledge of Orthodoxy is the primary purpose of this message board. And it is my understanding that encouraging ecumenism and syncretism lies athwart this noble purpose.

richard mcb

[Richard McBride]

monochos: patron saints

Blessed of the Lord Herman

It is a fairly clear-cut issue. Either a group has paid its dues by being accepted by the fairly large college of Patriarchies and Synods which DO make up Orthodoxy, or it hasn't.

For all those who, for some reason, have not paid those dues, they remain outside Orthodoxy. They may wish it were different, but it is not. They are either accepted or not.

The Milan Synod is one of those outside of Orthodoxy. Thus, they may be only like Orthodx. They are not, as they claim, "traditional Orthodox."

How much time do you have left to learn all you should about Orthodoxy? I ask because that is one of the primary charges made to Orthodox.

Do you have so much time that you may fritter away even a small portion left you, in dabbling outside Orthodoxy?

My prayer, dear Herman, is that you spend every moment left to you in climbing Saint John's Ladder -- and that is best done through the Truth of Orthodoxy.

richard mcb

[Matthew Panchisin]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

Dear Richard,

I emailed the moderator and requested that he remove my posting and the link (REFERENCED)
not "sponsored" in response to Len Northfeilds initial posting. I should be much more careful in the future, since it is not my sincere intention to lead any soul away from Orthodoxy or the knowledge of the Saint whose name he has been given. If I have presented incorrect information about Saint Leonard, then again may God have mercy on my soul. Suffice it to say, we all need Gods mercy.

In Christ,

Matthew

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Professor McBride,

I was "lurking" today, and I read these your two posts:

"Any Orthodox who dabbles in these heresies is leaving his ability to grow in Orthodoxy in Jeapordy. Growing in the knowledge of Orthodoxy is the primary purpose of this message board. And it is my understanding that encouraging ecemenism and syncretism lies athwart this noble purpose."

Not long ago, a fellow from Albania asked the "question" concerning grace and the sancitiy of certain Roman saints, speaking admiringly about their many miracles and their apparent holiness. I found myself rather beseiged by other members when I stated that while I might not judge on the sanctity of those outside the Church or to the real efficacy of certain physical manifestations of Christ's Passion, I warned that Orthodox Christians should not be too enamored of that supposed sancity. The learned Alabanian student on the one hand said that he did not believe that the Catholics he admire so are saints, yet he was very isistent ion pressing a case which in all appearances is just the opposite. I have seen in the past where Orthodox Christians also started to love this or that Catholic saint, and in time they left the Church. Yet, that is how we converts basically came to the Church.

AS I QUOTED ST. THEOPHAN THE RECLUSE, GOD WATCHES OVER THE NON-ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS, AND HE ALONE WILL JUDGE THEM-BUT IF A MEMBER OF HIS TRUE CHURCH LEAVES AND EMBRACES ANOTHER CHRISTIAN FAITH, OR WORSE, A NON-CHRISTIAN ONE, HE MOST ASSUREDLY WILL LOSE HIS SOUL

Thus, my concern for the Albanian person was truly pastoral, and not intended to speak ex cathedra about the efficacy of the spiritual state of other Christian religious bodies.

Professor McBride when Orthodox Chuirches term themselves "Traditional," they generally are referring to the fact that they adhere to the Old Calendar, are not involved in ecumenism, and attempt to maintain the Traditions of Orthodoxy as handed down to them by their Fathers. This mainly problematical in regards to the many Old Calendarist groups in Greece, who are, as my spiritual father terms it "Orthodox with a venom." They are in constant watch as to who has broken this or that canon, thus ceasing to be Orthodox. It can be said that the Russian Church Abroad is "tradional," but the Calendar has never been an issue for the Russians for it has always been on the Old Calendar, and other than its forty long involvemnt in ecumenism at the behest of the government, the Church in Russia is among the most traditional, so traditional is not always a "bad" word. It can be noted that until the early sixties when some Orthodox Churches became involved in ecumenism, the Russian Church Abroad served with them, and the Calendar was not an issue. Sadly the term "Tradiitionalist" has been politicized, and the or Orthodox Christians who call their brothers who keep the Traditions of the Chuirch and do not want to involve themselves in ecumenism and sycretism as "Fundamentalists."

I thank you for your good words in regards to ecumenism, for it is a great threat to the integrity of Holy Orthodoxy.

Respectfully yours.
Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Leonard,

In regards to your question concerning patron saints, as we know all of mankind has given names to children-some in honor of relatives, some denote a quality, a spiritual gift, to fulfill a prophecy , and so on. Most often, people have named their children in honor of beloved deceased grand parents, parents or a young brother or sister who died tragically.

As the Christian Church grew there was added to the list of the Holy Apostles the names of martyrs, holy bishops and holy monastics. As the renown of these people grew, and word of their holiness and the miracles they worked and ther holy example to Christians became widely known, people began to name their children in honor of a saint under whose holy protection they would place their new-born child. In time, people named their children after a relative who bore the name of a certain saint.

Often it was the case to simply name a child for the saint on whose feast he was born. Others gave their child a name because they had had been granted God's mercy through the intercession of a particular. In some cases, as in Greece, people can be called Anastasios after the Resurrection, or Stavro, in honor of the Cross of the Lord.

I know a priest whose mother had decided to name him "George," but since he was born on the fifteenth of December, his mother's sister insisted that she name him "Nicholas," in honor of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker, whose feast is on December 6-December 19 on the Old Calendar.

It often happens that when a person embraces Holy Orthodoxy, he is given the opportunity to chose a patron saint. It is suggested that he or she read a number of lives of saints and see if there is one with whom he can identify, or to whom he is drawn spiritually. For those being baptized, our Church's way of receiving converts, it is physically apparent that by being washed in the waters of Baptism, they have become a new person, putting aside the "old man."

Sometimes, a person will pick a patron saint whose name is close to his - for instance, a person named Leonard could take the name "Leonid," after a holy Russian monastic saint of the 17th century..

I have a God daughter who was very concerned that she might die without having a chance to repent. When she was a catechumen, I told her about the life of the Great Marty Barbara, who has promised that if one remembers her holy sufferings, that person will not repose without the chance to confess and receive communion before they die. She took the name Barbara.

There is certainly nothing wrong with keeping one's original name if it is the name of a saint, but I object to the practice of one Church in this country which tells new converts that it is not necessary to change their name, because they too will become a saint, and in time, they will have people naming their children after them. I knew an older woman whose name was Charlene, and when she was chrismated many years ago, she was told to keep that name. When she came to our Church, she told me that she had never felt comfortable receiving communion with the name "Charlene," I suggested that she take the name "Sophia" in honor of the holy martyr, and she wept, and said that she wished had had that name her entire Orthodox life. Forgive my long answer; I hope that this has helped a little.

[Len Northfield]

Thank you all for your considered responses. It was certainly not my intention to stir up a hornets nest.

For information, although I am a recent convert to Orthodoxy I am not a new Christian. In fact I have been following the path for over twenty years now and am delighted that I finally found my way home.

I am well aware that argument and "debate" takes place in all areas of life and particulary with regard to areas which touch our hearts.

I hope only to grow in the Lord and to learn from you ALL.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Apropos Herman's post no. 103, if anyone is in London, England, next Saturday evening, and is interested (and has free time), one of my choirs, Collegium Musicum of London, will be singing Rachmaninov's setting of the complete Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, with an Orthodox deacon (Fr Peter Scorer)as cantor to supply the znamenny chant, at 7.30 pm (19.30)in St John's Smith Square SW1. We performed it last Saturday in St John's College Chapel, Cambridge, and it was an absolutely electrifying experience since Fr Scorer of course fulfils his role by imparting meaning to every word.

Hope that somebody can make it. I shall be singing the top tenor part (there are 5-way splits at some points).

Yours in true amity of spirit,

the seeker

[Herman Blaydoe]

At one time the Ecumenical Patriarch refused to acknowledge the Moscow Patriarch. During that time, was Russia outside Orthodoxy? Unlike some others, I am less enthusiastic about drawing lines in the sand about who is or is not "Orthodox." My own diocese (Carpatho-Russian, a member in good standing of SCOBA) often has been accused of being "outside Orthodoxy." I do not care to be a judge, but as the keeper of an online directory of Orthodox monasteries, I have to make decisions on who to or not to list. Sometimes the decision is easy, like some of the Ukrainian groups that associate with pseudo-Orthodox who ordain women or who do not oppose abortion. Sometimes it is not so easy like the HOCNA group who are rather controversial in their formation, but still, I have yet to visit an Orthodox bookstore that did not stock much of their published material. If the OCA considers the teachings published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery to be "Orthodox" who am I to argue? If I let myself be swayed by simple opinion, many worthy and "right-believing" monasteries would not be listed. I catch flack from OCA-types for listing ROCOR monasteries. I did remove one monastery from the directory because an OCA bishop asked me to, even though their website has nothing controversial on it, other than the claim that they are the "true" American autocephalous church and consist basically of one monastery and perhaps 2 parishes.

If anyone is interested, I can tell tales of the various splinter groups in the US, the spawns of the misbegotten efforts of Vilatte and Ofiesh that crop up from time to time, the Old Catholic/high church Episcopalian hybrids that have sprouted up, calling themselves "Orthodox" to try and lend legitimacy to themselves.

I have done my homework. I hope I have listed monasteries in a responsible manner. Things are not always cut and dried. The Milan Synod does have a pedigree, and it is Orthodox.

I have noticed, from time to time, a pronounced prejudice and sometimes elitism against anything not "Byzantine" that refuses to recognize that there were/are other pre-schism Orthodox rites besides the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I have noticed this mostly among converts who sometimes try to be more Russian than the Russians or more Greek than the Greeks. The second is much harder to do. I have read some incredibly obtuse things by certain Greek authors that defy my simple ability to comprehend, such as how Greek chant must only be done in Greek, since trying to match the modality/rythm of the tones to English words upsets the cosmic balance or some such thing.

Then again, I am not a priest nor bishop nor scholar. I do not pretend to dictate to others what is or is not Orthodox. I simply know from personal correspondence that Fr. Aidan is a good and sincere servant of Christ trying to follow the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Church to the best of his ability and circumstance.

Herman the simple

Your opinion may vary. Not legal in all jurisdictions. Consult a spiritual physician before taking. Do not administer to children under the age of 46.

[Loretta]

Dear Richard and others,
Forgive me for the simplicity of this response. I am not as learned in Church history as many, or most, of you are.

I&#39;ve been taught and believe there is <u>One Holy Church</u> that possesses the fullness of faith &#40;validity of Holy Mysteries/Sacraments&#41; despite the historic separation. It is not my intention to cast any shadows on The Orthodox Church. The Byzantine Church celebrates Divine Liturgy, follows fasting rules, and reveres the same saints as our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

Though I was raised in the Latin Catholic Church, in my humble efforts to come into closer union with Our Lord, He had led me to the Byzantine spirituality &#40;and now I can only express myself by saying that &#34;Now I am alive!&#34;&#41;

I am truly grateful to the Orthodox Church for preserving the Traditions of Eastern Spirituality, i.e. Liturgy, Teachings of the Holy Fathers, Icons, etc. As much as I can understand, The Byzantine Church is struggling to return more fully to its Eastern roots, all with the blessing of the Bishop of Rome. At present, I am striving to learn the differences between the Traditions and traditions of the East and West. And, for that reason, among others, I find this forum a valuable oasis.

As I had posted on another thread months ago, my first encounter with Orthodoxy/Eastern Churches occurred at work. One Russian Orthodox gentleman and one Ukranian Catholic gentleman exhibited such profound attitudes that I was immediately drawn to their spirituality. They didn&#39;t evangelize overtly, but the light of their faith vividly shone through all their daily tasks.

It is not my intention to raise or re-raise any arguments between the East and the West here at Monaches. If the moderator deems this or any other posts I make unacceptable, I would appreciate his deleting them.

I ask for your prayers in all my struggles,
Loretta

p.s. In keeping with the topic, my patron saint is St. Mary of Egypt.

[Richard McBride]

monochos: those in and those out

Blessed of the Lord Herman

Since you don&#39;t address your message to a particular person, I assume I may respond, that if you are &#34;neither priest nor bishop not scholar&#34;, and if you are &#40;as I seem to recall&#41; fairly newly arrived at Orthodoxy &#40;if I am wrong, please tell me!&#41;, then you have placed yourself in a pickle.

I should imagine there is no &#39;right&#39; way of making all your decisions. But there is no point in pretending that, &#34;I do not pretend to dictate to others what is or is not Orthodox.&#34; That is precisely what the site you describe IS doing -- especially for those who are less well founded in the issues than yourself.

As for deciding who is in and who is out, it is a difficult task you have set for yourself; nevertheless, I think you are liable for your decisions. Perhaps, you might treat it as a holy effort and pray a great deal over each decision -- try to put it on the Lord&#39;s broad back, much as you may. That would make it a regimen, sort of like writing ikons. And in the least you might spread out the liabilities &#40;as re-insurers do&#41;.

As for me, whether you include the Milan Synod is entirely your affair. I know they are not the example of a &#34;traditional Orthodoxy&#34; they should like to be. But on the other side, I can well believe, understand and accept your commitment to their leader as a holy man. But his holiness does not, of itself, make him Orthodox.

As for drawing lines in the sand, that is very much what you do and what the priest does when you receive and he admits you to Communion. It does no good to try to fuzz that line &#40;for instance in communing non-Orthodox&#41;, for as you say it is truly difficult to draw. But that is why there were the Ecumenical Synaxes in the first place. There was a great need to determine that which was gnostic and heretical, versus that which is and ever shall be Orthodox and holy. This calls for the line.

I think the need for this line is much more important today than ever before. Your problem is yet one more example of the need.

The point I am making is that while the task you have set for yourself is probably beyond your full understanding, I pray that you realize that you are in a position to lead others astray. Just as the fact of my repeating these words places my soul on the line I claim is there, even more so do you take responsibility for your web words.

If the choices you are called to make cause you unhappiness, perhaps you should step back from it a bit? In any event, I think you realize that your site is not a simple matter of putting up pics of the kids while discussing your favorite hobbies. You are indeed influencing people who have a concern for these things. It is a heavy responsibility.
I pray that you go in partners with the Lord, and do NOT think of these decisions as being a matter fit for your own predilections.

Again, dear Herman, I pray that you pray for full awareness of your responsibilities in this matter. And while you are doing that, I shall pray to the Theotokos to beg her Son to bless you with the grace of discernment, far beyond your deserving.

Also, Master, I pray that I have embarrassed no one by what I have said, especially those who would come unto Thee. Forgive the presumptions of my own making, and I pray that You correct my many errors.

richard mcb

[Richard McBride]

Dear Loretta

It is gratifying to hear of your journey toward the uncreated Light. You seem to be making great progress. God knows.

Many people do not make the full leap to Orthodoxy; and some who do end by regressing to their previous ways -- old habits, and all that, seem to loom larger to some than the great Truth of Orthodoxy.

But I should be chastised if I failed to say that while you enjoy the similarity of the Byzantine rites carried out under Roman Catholicism, it is a mixed message there. It is a partial truth.

Orthodox Divine Liturgy is not at all the same thing as a Byzantine Mass. That is all I may say on it.

If you have the chance to place your soul entirely under the protection of the Holy Spirit which we call down to sanctify the bread and the wine as the Body and the Blood -- which is to say, if you ever have the chance to be Chrismated into Orthodoxy, you will understand.

If that chance never comes to you, then you have done better than many of your brothers and sisters. And I thank the Lord for the chance to hear from hearts, such as yours, struggling toward purity. I pray that you increase your contemplation of the Lord in all His ways.

richard mcb

[Richard McBride]

monochos: the jesus siminar

Well, I see what that means now. I could not possibly bring myself to read the page, however.

Considering this advertisement at the bot of the page:

...&#34;Next: Quests of the Historical Jesus&#34;

I shall rely on John Dunn&#39;s judgemet of the matter.

[Len Northfield]

... offending several of the responders to my post below on Patron Saints.

Firstly I am delighted that so many people took so much time to post on my thread, I am however surprised that out of all the responses posted only two actually had anything to do with what I asked, I thank you both.

Is it the custom here to go from thread to thread hijacking topics in order to continue debates unrelated to the topic in question? I think this is rude. In any other discussion site i have been involved in, contentious side issues are taken to separate threads thereby not silting up the genuine responses to the subject in question.

Now, I realise I am new to this site but I am not a new Christian, I have managed, by the grace of god, to attain middle age. Manners, courtesy and respect should be virtues common to humans and more so in us.

I really enjoy heated debate but not when it reduces salient topics to side issues.

regards,

len

[Herman Blaydoe]

I became Orthodox on the Feast of the Dormition, in 1976 in an OCA parish. I suppose this, in an Orthodox sense, could be construed as fairly newly arrived. You presume a lot about my prayer life. That is between the Lord and me. I will not expand on that.

You go on to state:


As for drawing lines in the sand, that is very much what you do and what the priest does when you receive and he admits you to Communion. It does no good to try to fuzz that line (for instance in communing non-Orthodox), for as you say it is truly difficult to draw. But that is why there were the Ecumenical Synaxes in the first place. There was a great need to determine that which was gnostic and heretical, versus that which is and ever shall be Orthodox and holy. This calls for the line.

Well, you will need to explain to this simple one (using small words please) what heretical and gnostic things are being espoused by the Milan Synod. I am not aware of any, offhand. Orthodoxy, as this simple mind understands it, is not a matter of opinion. Some opine that the Patriarch of Moscow is no longer Orthodox. Some would claim that the Ecumenical Patriarch has suborned his historic authority. Many question the ecclesiastic status of the OCA. Who am I to believe? Who is inside and outside the boundaries of "THE CHURCH" seems to vary according to historical perspective. St. John Chrysostom was called "outside the Church" and exiled. Even St. John Maximovich was challenged, but later declared a saint by ROCOR.

In my simple understanding, I prefer simple things. It seems to this simple mind that holding to the teachings of the Holy Church is what constitutes Orthodoxy, not so much pedigree. Rome has pedigree to spare, but not faithfulness to the Orthodox Witness. If a traditional teaching is being proclaimed, faithful to the Apostolic Witness, what harm is being done, other than Christ's Gospel is being proclaimed without "proper" endorsement? In the end it is not our pedigree (what did Christ say about stones and "children of Abraham"?) that constitutes whether or not we are members of Christ's flock, but "by our fruits shall we be known." If there be evil fruit from St. Hilarion Monastery, please make it known that all may be edified.

Richard, quite frankly, I don't know any more about you than you do about me. If a responsible representative of the Church tells me not to list a monastery, like my priest or a bishop that I recognize, I will act accordingly. But I don't list or not list someone just because someone out there objects. If I did that, the directory would not exist at all, and for many reasons that I will not go into here, I believe it serves God's purposes in some small way. Disagreements exist, even amongst holy people. I try to follow my conscience and my spiritual authorities as best as I can, and leave the rest to God.

Herman the simple

[Loretta]

Mr. Northfield,

I apologize for my participation on your &#34;Patron Saints&#34; thread.

Loretta

[Fr Averky]

Dear Leonard,

Sorry that you have been upset by postings here on Monachos, but recently in my pride I got upset about something, and someone aptly pointed out that this is a discussion group, and its purpose is to discuss a large range of topics concerning the Orthodox Church and upon occasion, its relationship to other Christian bodies, monasticism,Praxis, and so on.

In any discussion, Leonard, two people can start talking about a particular topic, but soon can go off on a tangent started by a thought expressed or an opinion given by one or the other persons involved in the discussion.

When our Moderator sees that we have settled in on a particular tangent, he might move it to another topic or create a new thread. I have never in my life enaged in a conversation in which I was limited to one topic, and only that topic.

I do not quite understand why you wish to remind us that your are &#34;not a new Christian,&#34; for that can virtually be said of all of us covertss, for the vast majority of us came from another Christian Church. Having been Baptized on this year, you are still an &#34;infant&#34; in the Faith, and it is important for you to try to live an Orthodox life with an Orthodox mindset. We on Monochos might argue and snap at each other from time, or whine, like I do on occasion, but Leonard, we have been posting for some time now, and in a sense, we are a little family, making allowances for each other&#39;s ideas and personalaties.

I am in a monastery, so my Orthodox world view is different from that of a priest in a parish, or a layperson. Owen Jones sees Orthodoxy through the eyes of a philosopher, Brother Pauls sees his Orthodox world through the eyes of an Australian convert, longing for more English in the Divine Services. If you will be patient, you can learn much on this board. A couple of times I have declared that I was quitting Monochos, but then I realized I would be cutting myself from many good people who have been most patient with me, and have given me much love and support. Stick around Leonard, and be humble, and you will learn much.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Justin]

I apologize for having offended, Len. I will try to be more careful in the future.

[Fr Averky]

Beloved in the Lord Loretta,

Absolutely you do not have anything to apologize for; this is an open discussion board, and you have been with us for some time. New people coming to the board need to be patient and &#34;grow&#34; into it. Your are fine.

Allow me to explain something if I can. Those Churches termed &#34;Uniate&#34; is a very touchy subject with Orthodox Christians right now. The groups who are Melkite Catholics or Greek Catholics, and so on, do have an outward vestige of what was once their Orthodoxy, but being that the head of the Church is the Pope of Rome, makes them quite distrinctive from the Orthodox Church as a whole.

Orthodox Christians have suffered from the heavy hand of the Vatican in the past, and they are made very nervous by the on-going ecumenical discussions between Rome and the Great Church &#40;Constantinople. In America there are many Orthodox Christians whose grandparents lived during the last years of the Austro-Hiungarian empire. When Catholic Austria came to rule the area where many simple Orthodox folk lived, they were told that they could keep everything the way they had it, but they would &#34;just have to pray for the Pope and add the word &#34;filoque&#34; &#40;and from the Son&#41; to the Nicene Creed.&#34; This of course was against all that these people had been taught. In time, they were told to take down the iconosatis and put up staues, and so on. Whenver there was resistance ,brute force would be used. One reader became amartyr when he was kicked to death for refusing to add the Filioque to the Nicene Creed. To this day, some Carpatho-Russian Orthodox parishes have &#34;First Communion,&#34; and until recently they still had the rank of &#34;Monsignor.&#34;

Most recently Loretta, Russian Orthodox pilgrims going to Russia are encountering Catholic nuns speaking very poor Russian inviting people to come to their Church. Someone recently sent me the publication of a uniate parish in St. Petersburg, which calls it self &#34;Derzhavnaya Provoslanie Prihod,&#34; which means &#34;The Reigning Mother of God Orthodox Parish.&#34; It is very*clear in the pictures that it is maintained by Catholic priests. There is also shown a procession of Our Lady of Fatima, because Catholics are now being told that when the Blessed Virgin asked that prayers be offered for the &#34;conversion&#34; of Russia, she wanted Roman Catholics to convert the Russian people to Catholicism. Earlier, it was considered that it meant for people to pray for the downfall of Communism and the return of the Orthodox Church.

Loretta, there are but 600,00- Catholics in all of Russia, but in the last few years, the Pope has established twelve dioceses! And more recently, two in Khazakistan where there is but a tiny minority. Just last week, the Vatican was thwarted in its attempt tp gain equal status to that of the Georgian Orthodox Church for its tiny group of Catholics; however, this caused such huge demonstrations throughout the entire nation, and the bill at least for now was dropped. But Rome will try again.


Sensible Orthodox people are alarmed by Rome&#39;s open and blatant attempts to &#34;colonize&#34; all of Easter Europe. Her idea of &#34;union&#34; with the Orthodox is actually &#34;absorption,&#34; and if there was a union, at first all would be &#34;just the same,&#34; but in time Rome would impose its teachings, theology, seminary curriculi and world view on Orthodox Christians, just as it did in the 19th Century. This is why ecumenism is the greatest threat to Orthodoxy ever, because it is an evil attempt on the part of the Devil to make Orthodoxy but an insignificant little group in an enormous &#34;Super Church,&#34; in order that Orthodoxy&#39;s voice of True Christianity will go unheeded, drowned in the sea of &#34;Universal Love.&#34;

Loretta, please do not be offended, but this is why Professor McBride was so firm in his words to you. I also ask you to pray to God for guidance, for I believe your true home is in the Orthodox Church. You have made astep closeer, all you have to do is walk through the Door.

With much love in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Loretta]

Sorry Len &#40;in advance&#41;, but I&#39;m going to go off the subject again.

Dear Father Averky, Thank you for your most kind and thoughtful words. I&#39;ve been thinking about Professor McBride&#39;s words and possibly some day I&#39;ll get up the nerve to visit the Russian Orthodox Church which is about 2 miles away.

Meanwhile Father, at my Byzantine Church, yes we pray for &#34;our holy ecumenical Pontiff, reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan, and our God-loving Bishop ...&#34;. We recite the Nicene Creed without the filoque. We do not have statues. We do have a beautiful iconosatis. We do not have &#34;first Communion&#34;. Communion is first given at Baptism. We stand, not kneel. We use the St. John Chrysostom Divine Liturgy.

I&#39;m not concerned with the politics of religion but am concerned with my salvation. However, after reading your post I began to wonder. Just suppose .... what would you do if there was a reconciliation between the Orthodox and Catholics? Would some Orthodox refuse to follow their Orthodox Church&#39;s teaching and create a splinter Orthodox group. I&#39;m not being flippant - I&#39;m asking in all seriousness. If this subject is &#34;undiscussable&#34; I&#39;ll understand.

Lastly Father and Richard and all, I take no offense to any advice given to me. How else can I learn! I thank God daily for all the participants on this forum. Thank you all for doing the Lord&#39;s work.

Loretta

[Fr Averky]

Dear Loretta,

Please understand that the Orthodox Church also believes that there is but One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and it is in fact the Orthodox Church. Until 1054, there was but a single entity, the Christian Church, With the arrival of heresies, various groups like the Nestorian, Ariuns, and others were no longer considered a part of the Church.

The Church in the West, headed by the bishop of Rome was considered one of the ancient Patriarchates, and was accorded a place of honr, and the Pope was considered &#34;Primus inter pares,&#34; that is, &#34;First among equals.&#34; Only with the donation of Pepin the Short of France did the Pope find himself a spiritual leader and a temporal ruler. The problem with the Filoque started at the same time, and is seen as becoming popular about the same time as the coronation of Charlemagne as &#34;Holy Roman Emperor which was a slap in the face of the Byzantine empeor. In Spain, Ariansim had reared its ugly head again, so to combat it, the Spanish bishops in council decided to add the word &#34;Filoque&#34; to the Creed in order to confirm that Jesus Christ is God. &#34;qui c__ patre filoque procedit,&#34; that is, &#34;who proceeds from the Father and the Son.&#34; This decision was to prove to be a disaster for the unity of the Church.

As the Papal states grew, so did the pretensions of the Pope. His office was not only that of bishop, but he had now to act politically, for he had to secure his vast holdings, and add to them when he could. Soon, he had his own armies who went to war in his interests, and furthermore, to subdue and humble kings, he used spiritual authority. Once, when in conflict with a young king, he nullified his anointing as king, and the ruler&#39;s subjects refused to obey him out of fear of the Pope&#39;s wrath. So the king had to stand in the snow before the place where the Pope was staying wearing little clothing and submit to the Pope&#39;s authority until the punishment was lifted.

The Pope&#39;s spiritual designs also grew, and over time, he started to grant &#34;indulgences,&#34; many times for amounts of money, to release the souls of those in Purgatory, a place not according to Orthodox teaching. This abuse is really what led to the break of Martin Luther with the Catholic Church and the ensuing Protesant Revolt.

By 1054, tensions between the East and West came to a climax, and the heads of the two Churches excommunicated each other, a real tragedy for both sides. Those Churches who would not accept this new authority of the Pope-as-Emperor stayed together and called themselves &#34;Orthodox,&#34; those who worship God in the right manner.

But the seamless garment of the Church was not torn Loretta, and the Church exists, and will exist until the end of time. Orthodoxy is beleagured as never before, but She will last. Again, please do not be offended, I just wanted you to understand a little better where we are coming from.

With love and respect
in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Len,

You can take some comfort in the knowledge that Richard Mcbride had pointed out to me and this forum that the link I presented and the information thus put forth may not be appropriate or Orthodox. It&#39;s good that you know the truth and that Richard questioned the source. I am learning iconography from a very sincere and serious Greek Orthodox iconographer and Russian Orthodox Archbishop and I realize the importance of accuracy in such Orthodox matters. I am often corrected in once perceived minor things that are not minor anymore in my mind. The corrections are sometimes conveyed with much severely heated Greek vigor and Russian master simple exactness. The message is the same from both - Say your prayers, do the very best you can with what God has given you, don&#39;t change anything. Sometimes the genuine Greek will say that an icon selected for painting is not Byzantine and not Orthodox. When I&#39;m painting and icon the Archbishop has said things like color is to bright to Greek, should be softer. When discussing western style iconography that was introduced into both the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches both my teachers do not care for the style. But this I know, both would most certainly venerate one of the western style icons painted by the Orthodox Saint Theophan the recluse. I hope someday you can find the time to read &#40;The Path to Salvation&#41; by the Orthodox Saint Theophan the recluse.

In Christ,

Matthew

[Loretta]

Thank you Father, you&#39;ve given me a lot to think about. As usual, your teachings are much appreciated.

I&#39;ve asked questions before as to the circumstances involving the division, but all I was ever told was that it &#34;happened for many reasons&#34;. Thank you for summarizing it so clearly.

Loretta

[Fr Averky]

Dear All,

With no offense meant to Prof. McBride, if the information concerning St Leonard was correct, it really does not matter concerning the &#34;Orthodoxy&#34; of its source.

However, he is right when he states that we need tro be circumspect in regards to some groups claiming to be Orthodox. HOCNA, or The &#34;Holy Orthodox Church of North America&#34; is rather recent. In the 1960&#39;s, Archimandrite Panteleimon along with a group of other men protested the ecumenical activities of the Greek Orthodox Church and left that body. Having been received into the Russian Church Abroad, they estsablished a monastery which grew rather rapidly. However, it soon became quite apparent that Fr. Panteleimon and his followers had their own agenda. Fr. Panteleimon&#39;s followers, including priests, were slavishly obedient to his every word, and Panteleimon created his own diocese within our Church. Until 1985, this group was always involved in intrigues and were very divisive, pitting &#34;their&#34; clergy against &#34;our&#34; clergy, even though we were supposed to be in the same Church. Serious charges were brought against Fr. Panteleimon by several monks who had fled from his monastery. Rather than fight to clear his name, he declared that the Russian Church Abroad had become dominated by &#34;Ecumenists&#34; and left our Church. He and several of his priests were defrocked. They then put themselves under two Old Calendar Bishops, Akakios and Gabriel, but when Gabriel sent Panteleimon a letter of enquiry regrding some theological issues, again they left and put themselves under the aged Auxentios, who for many years Panteleimon had soundly condemned. They were able to consecrate three bishops who basically are puppets of their &#34;Holy Elder Panteleimon&#34;, and since the repose of Auxentios, they have been on their own. They really do believe that they are the &#34;only true Orthodox Christians&#34; in the entire world, and are in communion with no other Church.

I am again sorry to go on like this, but you can see Professor McBride&#39;s concerns.

While it is true that Orthodox book stores carry publications by groups who are not part of the Church, if the books contain true Orthodox materials, then there is no problem. For example, our book store carries publications from St. Hermans monastery in CA, but we try to mention to people to not put too much stock in Fr. Herman&#39;s forewards.

Sadly, it is true that there are those who like to accuse this or that Orthodox Church of being &#34;uncanonical.&#34; Most of these people have no idea what a ccanon is, and if they think they do, their personal interpretations are unusually harsh, and will quote only those canons which suit them.

We should not concern ourselves with such matters, if a Church has legitimate roots and does not have a questionable ecclesiology. I of course am saying this in a broad sense. To people like dear Loretta, this sounds very confusing, but the devil has attacked the Church all along, and he knows the weaknesses of men, and knows how to stir up dissension, but in the end, he will lose.

Herman and Professor McBride, be at peace with one another, not letting the Evil One divide us. You are both valued members of this community, so don&#39;t follow my sinful example but be patient, and asking mutual forgiveness, pray for each other.

Fr. A.

[Richard McBride]

Thank you Blessed of the Lord Father Averky
for pouring Chrism on waters which were becoming troubled.

richard mcb

[Matthew Panchisin]

Slava Isusu Christo! Slava Na Viki!

Father Averky Bless.

I have a dear friend who having returned from visiting his family in Ukraine was very sorrowful when I picked him up at the airport a few months ago. In the car on the way home I could see that something was bothering him. I asked him how his family was. He said fine and so on. Then he told me that in his hometown there used to be four Orthodox churches and now there are two left. Two have become uniate and he was sorely troubled by it. The divisions and anxiety it caused among old friends and families in his town were terrible and unnecessary. He questioned - Why do they do that? Why? Why? ... I never realized how bad it was until I sat next to him suffering it.

In Christ,

Matthew

[Len Northfield]

Dear All,

Please do not feel you need to apologise to me, I was not offended or upset by the fact that my Patron Saints thread was sideswiped, I just thought I’d point out that I had a legitimate and serious question that was only addressed by two posts in 19 or so. The number of “responses” in the thread may also have led other people to perceive that there had been lots of answers to my question when, in fact there hadn’t.

I enjoy debate and I am constantly seeking to grow in my knowledge of God and Orthodoxy so I appreciate whatever contributions may be made. I look forward to engaging with all of you in the future.

To Loretta in particular, you owe me no apology and I hope my complaint didn’t upset you. It really wasn’t my intention to upset anyone I just wanted to make a point about protocol. Feel free to jump in to anything I am involved in, I look forward to getting to know you and everyone else more in time.

I would also like to address a few specific points that have been brought up in relation to my posts.

Father A, I appreciate your comments but I think you have misunderstood my complaint. Please understand that it is not pride that caused me to make my second post nor was it emotional reaction, rather I was complaining because I felt &#40;and still feel&#41; that the hijacking of my thread had limited the potential responses to my questions. I was not attempting to limit the thread I started to one topic but I do feel that the tangential topics should bear some relation to the topic in question

I appreciate that this is a discussion group and I well understand that its purpose is to discuss a large range of topics concerning the Orthodox Church, however I would have thought that a certain discipline in the discussions/debates would make them 1&#41; easier to follow, 2&#41; relevant to the questions at hand, 3&#41; less exclusive.

Let me follow your analogy of two people having a discussion… If I asked you a question you would, I trust, naturally provide me with a relevant answer. If in response to your answer someone else chipped in with a tangential point and the discussion then disappeared off down some, undoubtedly valid, rabbit trail with more and more people responding to points on the rabbit trail and not the original subject, I would feel that the discussion had been waylaid. In any topic based discussion it is necessary to stay germane. Indiscipline is all good and well for frat-house style gum-bumping sessions but a reasonable question demands a reasonable answer.

My motivation in pointing out that I am not a new Christian was not the promptings of pride but was simply to give you some background that may allow you to sharpen or direct your responses more appropriately. It was really to let you know that I am not viewing Orthodoxy through “the ruby glow of past ecumenism” but with some knowledge of other branches. . I am well aware how important it is for me to live an Orthodox life with an Orthodox mindset but thank you for your reminder.

I do think your comment that “We on Monachos… have been posting for some time now, and in a sense, we are a little family” is a little exclusionist. I have come here to learn, to question, to discuss and to grow, hopefully by engaging with a variety of brothers and sisters of differing personalities, backgrounds and viewpoints. Diversity broadens the mind, variety is the spice of life, men are like steel…etc., etc. I hope that, in the future, you will find I am as able a dialectician as you would wish and that my contributions are valid and useful despite my relative “infancy”. I also hope that you will make allowances for me as I certainly will for you.

My last point to you Father A is made with all due respect to your position. Your comment to Loretta that “Absolutely you do not have anything to apologize for” was made without thought for whether I was offended or not. Had I been offended &#40;I wasn’t&#41; then an apology may well have been due from those who offended me &#40;whether that offence was unitentional or not&#41; as would a gentle explanation of the rules of the game here at Monachos. Your comment was, in fact, inflammatory and would simply have exacerbated my upset making me feel that I am somehow not worthy to contribute because of my status as a newcomer. This comment was not humble, caring, or thoughtful and was certainly not something I would expect to see on an open discussion board inferring, as it did, that it is OK to upset people new to the board.

I apologise if I have caused offence to anyone by my complaint or by my defence of that complaint.

I have no intention of disappearing and if I did I wouldn’t feel it necessary to declare it, I would simply disappear. I do have quite a lot of experience of the dynamic of this kind of board so I hope that I will fit in and that we shall all enjoy one another. I will stick around and I will certainly work on my humility.

Len

[Herman Blaydoe]

Discussions happen. Threads get diverted. It is part and parcel of online discussion and it can get rather lively unless the moderator maintains a very heavy control. Unfortunately you often end up with two extremes. Either a free-wheeling &#34;Indiana List&#34; sort of thing where tempers flare on a regular basis and all sorts of silly things get said, or you end up with a very dead board where not much at all gets posted.

All in all, I think that Matthew has done an excellent job of striking a very difficult balance &#40;exhibiting the patience of Job&#41;, allowing a degree of freedom but not to the point where things get ugly.

Threads diverge. It happens, and no amount of &#34;why can&#39;t we just get along&#34; or &#34;please stay on-topic&#34; is going to keep absolutely everyone on topic. As documented in the ancient ancestor of this sort of board, the USENET, threads have a very predictable life. A person posts a question. Someone provides a very thoughtful answer. The next person ridicules the original poster for asking such a &#34;dumb&#34; question. The next poster tells the person who wrote the thoughtful answer why it is all wrong, then the group of people jump in to tell each other not to fight with each other and play nice and then it REALLY goes downhill until people get tired of it or another juicy thread gets started. Not saying it is good, just saying it happens. Sometimes the side tracks provide some very interesting and---once in a while--useful information.

Staying on-topic is hard. Somebody is going to say something that somebody else disagrees with. If someone puts out what is perceived as &#34;wrong&#34; or poor information, it needs to be corrected. And human nature to defend oneself or one&#39;s position when attacked is just very very hard to resist.

I apologise to and beg forgiveness from anyone that I have offended. But I won&#39;t guarantee that it will never happen again....and that is just the simple truth.

Herman the simple

[George Hawkins]

Thanks be to God for the many times we have &#39;got off the topic&#39;, and learnt much from the various paths which have emerged from what often starts out as a seemingly simple question or subject.

[Len Northfield]

Thanks Herman, well put and you have my agreement... for what it&#39;s worth http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Len Northfield]

Yes George, quite, but it isn&#39;t much use to the poor baffled questioner who is still doggy paddling about, looking for an answer to his original question...

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Len,
I have only been in Orthodoxy for 5 1/2 years, in that light consider what I&#39;m about to say.
As far as I understand it , there is a difference! Patron Saints , if you will are associated more with a vocation, i.e., sailors, policemen, doctors, teachers, and so forth. Name Saints; as the term implies, are saints who&#39;re associated more commonly with the ascetics of life after Chrismation. I don&#39;t know why, but the term cross-pollination came to mind when I thought that sometimes a name saint is a patron saint.

the unworthy servant

[Len Northfield]

Thanks James, I am grateful for your response.

len

[Fr Averky]

Dear Leonard,

Thank you for your lecture and for correcting me. It was never my intention to insult or hurt you, but to clarify some things for you, and I feel I must clarify matters further I said that Loretta did not owe you an apology, because she is a person who is seeking the truth, just as you are, and she was made to feel guilty by your complaining. All Members of monachos have the right to change the subject if they wish, and sometimes the new subject turns out to be more fruitful than the one started. When I pointed out that we are a little family, I was saying you are most welcome to it, but please do not think that we have to obey your wishes, or conduct this message board according to what you think is proper. M.C. Steenberg is the founder and moderator of this chatboard, and he and he alone sets the &#34;protocol&#34; for our community. While he recquires that at the very least we be civil to one another, he has never given any limitations as to tangents or keeping to the subject. Perhaps it might frustrate you personally very much when a conversation you might ave started somehow gets sidetracked along the line, then please know that that is a given on this board. I would be willing to say that most people would agree that ninety nine percent of all conversations between people at some point shifts in subject or emphasis. I would venture to say that most people do not wish to be in total control of a conversation, or to control others.

Remember Leonard that this community is made up of Orthodox Christians and people who are sympathetic to Orthodoxy. I firmly believe that as He is present everywhere, God sees our feeble efforts to support each other in an increasingly godless society. I have been aware that at certain times, His hand was involved in the switch of the topic in a thread because in that tangent was a lesson for one or more members of the community.

We might get after each other and sharply disagree with one another, but there is a great bond of love and respect here. I am seriously ill, and I know I would not have made it through the Winter, for being one of the monks who lives by himself, I had wonderful fellow Christians who lifted my spirits and comforted my soul.

I cannot spend time arguing with you just because one thing or another does not suit your way of doing things, and I will not. You came in blockbusters, demanding things to be run the way you want-it will never happen, I am most sorry to say. You can read how recently how Herman and Richard McBride had a rather sharp exchange. This happens from time to time, and perhaps a member feels that he he felt insulted by another member, he tells him. Usually right away the members hasten to forgive each other, and all is well. Sometimes other members will agree with one or the party, or will say to them to &#34;cool it.

I must say further that I found your response to me to be rather disrespectul insofar as I believe you tell us that you were baptized only in May of this year. I very much felt that in your very long response, I could see you shaking your finger in my face and chastizing me for daring to say anything to you about your behavior as a new member. Dear Leonard I also am a convert, but for 35 years, and in the monastic life for 28 and a priest for going on 21 years and I would think that I would have at least a little more experience and knowledge abut the Church than you do at the present time. And since your age of 43 seems important to you, for what little it is worth to anyone, I am in my 59th year. You might be 43 years old,. but you are not even 6 months old in the Christian life, and keep that mind. A new Christian needs to be humble, and realize that like any infant, he needs to be spoon fed, and has to rely on those older than him to take care of him. Leonard, if you will allow me to do so, I will and others will help you, and I wil you give you my help and attention with all my heart. It makes no difference if we were a member of this or that Church, for now, we are a new person, and we must forget all the errors of the past, and try to grow in the Truth. You came to the Church not to give it anything. but to receive, and this can only be recived in humility


When you asked your question about patron saints, I gave you a brief history of the development of the use of saint&#39;s names in the course of the life of the Christian Church, citing many good examples, which I think would have sufficiently answered your question. That we went off on a tangent,it was an opportunity to perhaps learn about something else, so my Dear Leonard, I tell you, there is so very much to learn! All of us, studying 24/7 365 days a year could notbegin to learn even a fraction of the Faith, even if we lived to great old age. Orthodoxy is a Mystery, and God only reveals some of that Mystery to those who truly love Him. That is what your lifes focus needs to be -to love God and our neighbor.

I might now add that &#34;patron saint&#34; can mean more than one thing; for example, nations have patron saints, I believe that England&#39;s is St. George, and Scotland&#39;s is St. Andrew. St. George is also the patron saint of Russia. To celebrate the 50th anniversary of the end of WWII,the city of Moscow built a beautiful church in honor of St. George as a memorial to those who died for the Motherland. Througout Catholic Europe, guilds, cities, associations, and so on have their patron saint and have a big celebration of the saint&#39;s feast day. Many times couples will name their child after the father&#39;s association&#39;s patron saint.

You might think me rude, arrogant and prideful, but I know what I am talking about, and members of this community will tell you that I can be very firm at times, and you are not the first person to whom I have spoken in such manner. I will openly admit that from time my lack of patience and pride gets the best of me, and I stamp my foot an allow myself to get upset, but the love and patience of others always shames me, and I calm down. Please know Leonard know that what I am saying to you, and did say to you is said out of the greatest Christian love and with the sincere desire for you to gain heaven. I have long experience in my monastic life and my priestly life, and I along with our other members want to share our Christian experiences with you give you if you will be patient and loving towards us.

If by my words I offended you, then I truly am sorry and ask your forgiveness. Orthodox Christianity as I have said many times, is not a &#34;feel good&#34; religion, but is the Way of the Cross, for our Saviour said that if we would follow Him, we must take up our cross and follow Him. Beloved in the Lord Leonard, you will very soon see how angry the Evil One is that you have put on Christ, and what tempest there will be! Be assured that I am praying for you and your family. God bless you Leonard, and again, if I upset you, forgive me and pray for me.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Len Northfield]

Once again I apologise if I have caused offence to anyine by my complaint or its defence and I ask forgiveness of all who have been adversely affected.

Public argument of this nature serves no purpose and glorifies no one.

len

[Daniel Jeandet]

Perhaps we need a patron Saint of message boards.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

Perhaps I might say just a word or two here. A welcome to the community to Leonard, first of all, and to all the new &#39;faces&#39; in the forum &#40;several new readers sign up each week, though many &#39;lurk&#39; and do not post&#41;.

The issue of topical discussions is always terribly difficult in an open discussion community such as this. The forum is, as you all are aware, divided into five main Topic Areas, into which existing threads may be continued or re-activated, or new conversations/threads begun. It is, however, the nature of free conversation that tangents often arise, and the ongoing conversations of a particular thread may interrelate to new or other threads on the board. It is also the case that arising tangents can, at times, captivate readers&#39; attentions more potently than the original theme of a thread, and thus the discussion takes turns not foreseen when the conversation was begun.

My encouragement to everyone is to be patient and understanding with the &#39;environment&#39; of this unique community. Remember that these message boards are read by hundreds of readers, each of whom &#39;hears&#39; new discussions from his or her own perspective and place in life, and who therefore is moved by different aspects of their contents or implications. It is generally not the case that &#39;hijacking&#39; takes place, in the sense of deliberate manipulation of a thread. Rather, it is differing interests and arenas of knowledge coming to light that may take a thread from one topic to another.

In such situations as concrete new threads form within a discussion originally centred upon a different theme, I will occasionally create a new thread for the emerging discussion and move the related messages there, allowing the two conversations to continue along without interfering with one another. But I am loathe to do this too often, as in many cases the tangents of one discussion do indeed have a bearing on the larger issues of the original topic, even if they do not address it directly.

A general &#39;rule of thumb&#39; for message board interaction in a forum such as this which tries very hard to be not just a forum but a community:
If you think someone&#39;s post was meant to insult you or your beliefs personally, it probably wasn&#39;t. If you think someone&#39;s intent is to manipulate a thread, it probably isn&#39;t.
Sometimes these rules don&#39;t hold true, but I do try to manage things at those moments.

INXC, Matthew

[Archbishop Constantin]

Glory be to Christ, our Lord, our God and our Savior!

Mr. Daniel J. et al;

Ever since I got into Monachos.net, I thought that the Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin Theotokos is our Patron Saint. If you do not agree with me, then look at her Holy Icon on the upper left side.

&#43; Arzobispo Constantino

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Matthew,

Thank you and God bless you for your kind and calming words. Because of your Christian love and patience, this is such a wonderful community, and I ask your forgiveness for my lack of patience, for of all people, I should know better.

With love and the highest respect,

Fr. A..

[Fr Averky]

With apologies to you, Leonard!

WITH GPATITUDE TO ALL WHO PRAYED ...

My Dear members of Monachos,

I wish to thank all those of you who prayed for me during my recent severe illness. As you know, for some strange reason, I kept filling up with fluid, making it extremely painful to walk, and very difficult to breathe. Just putting on my shoes would leave me gasping for air for at least 5 minutes. No matter what I tried with the knowledge I had gained in managing my own dialysis care, nothing would work, and my legs looked like logs, and I could barely lift them up to walk, and each step was ever so painful. Also, I started to suffer from spontaneous bleeding on both of them. I was in such intense physical pain that one Saturday and Sunday I simply could not get out of bed.

I was Dear Loretta who contacted me, showing great concern for my not having posted for awhile. When she found out that I was in such bad shape, she posted a request for prayers.

Soon I received messages assuring me of prayers, even from Effie, who no longer has internet, but still made the effort to contact me. I can in truth tell you, that within 18 hours of receiving the warm messages of prayerful encouragement, the condition suddenly vanished! I woke up on Monday morning, and the condition was gone.

With no offense intended to the good men who contacted me, for I was deeply touched by the lovngly concern of all those who assured me of their prayers, the majority of members who sent me messages of concern were women, it was the women who showed a mother-like special caring for me. It made me think how at times we have struggled with the issue of women in the priesthood, and the popular feminist issues over the last 30 years, and I found myself thinking about the women who loved our Lord and stood by Him to the end.

It was the women who fearlessly went to the tomb to anoint the body of our Saviour and it is seen in the Holy Gospel that their one and only fear was who would roll back the stone for them.. While the disciples had abandoned our Saviour and in fear had run away and hid themselves, the women, not fearing the wrath of the Jews, bravely set out to attend to Him.

Thus do we see the great spiritual strength of women and mothers;. How often do we see heart-breaking images of the terors of civil wars in Africa and other nations and terrible natural disasters throughout the world. In these imagers we often see women who have lost their husbands, trying to take care of their starving and dying children. Throuought all the centuries, it has been the women who were the heart and strength of the home and in times of war and disaster women have endured so much grief and pain, yet they always remained a tower f strength for their husbands and children. Even when the situation is tragically hopeless, a mother does what she can, even in the face of the knowledge rhar she cannot do anything.

While it might be true that the vast number of canonized saints are men, their are those untold thousands and thousands of mother-saints in heaven who raised their sons to have the desire to please God. There are very few men who will not tell you how much his mother did for him and the sacrifices she made for the sake of her family.

As usual, I have gone on for a long time, but I wanted so to express my gratitude to all of those who begged God&#39;s mercy for me, both men and women, for He graciously heard your prayers and sent me comfort. and healing. I know that I will never be well, but I am much better. For those of you who might think at times hat God might not always hear or answer your prayers, He does, and the sudden complete reversal of my worsening condition was most assuredly brought on by your good prayers.

When I saw my physician, it was found that I was not dialyzing enough, so now I do one or two extra manual treatments a day, and the terrible pains in my limbs, which were like when one has a very bad flu have now gone away.

Again, I also want to humbly ask forgiveness from all of you for those times when I get impatient. A good part of it stems from my illness, but mostly from my poor and weak character. Orthodoxy means everything to me, and when people barge into the message board and blatantly try to present ideas or wish to teach us ideas of their own which deviate from the solid foundations of the Faith, it really bothers me, especially when it becomes quite clear that they have no intention of listening.to our reasonable responses. Because of my pride and lack of love, I cannot bear to hear people who, while claiming to be Orthodox, have their own teachings and considerations.

I cannot tell you how important you all are to me, and now, especially you, Leonard. Be assured, each and every one of you, of my continued fervent prayers for you and yours.

Thank you, and God bless all of you!

Fr. A.

[Len Northfield]

Father A,

I am genuinely sorry to hear of your illness and you will certainly be included in my prayers.

I thank you for your own thoughts and prayers and I would like to add my support to your desire that people who barge into the message board and blatantly try to present or teach ideas of their own which deviate from the solid foundations of the Faith, are responded to accordingly.

Ths is surely a place to meet, to learn and to grow and, as such, must be a place where all members listen to each other in love. We all have a responsibility to try and understand the viewpoint of others, even if we disagree.

len

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear Father Averky,

As a guest, I often lurk upon this board, read most of the discussions, often with interest, and at other times with trepidation, that is, with a deep sense that women in the Church, Saints and otherwise, seem to be looked at as second rate members of the Orthodox Church. Of course that is my perception; and, I may be entirely wrong in this perception.

Why is it that I often feel that the Orthodox Church is a man's world? Please forgive me this feeling and perception. I struggle with this, am often perplexed at the timidity and groveling of women in some of the parishes that I have attended, whether in Greek, Russian or American branches of the Orthodox Church.

As far as I can see, which may not be very far, it makes me shudder at times to experience this deep inner feeling, especially when I peruse the Church periodicals and newspapers, and even the collections of the lives of the Saints, Patericons!

Father bless, Please

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Leonard,

Thank you for your kind and prayerful words. Thank you for understanding my feelings . Most of the time I try to be very patient, but like any person, sometimes my passions get the best of me, and I lose patience and foolishly say something about it. This causes me a lot of personal grief, for it always makes me realize how very far away I am from salvation and how little spiritual progress I have made after so many years of struggle. Yet I will never give up, and each night when I have served my Akathist to the Mother of God, praying for all the members of our community and so very many others, I beg God to not take me in the night, but give me one more chance that I might be converted and live. I have always been something of an infant terrible, and it is my heaviest cross.

Pray for me. dear Leonard that I will bear with more patience each day&#39;s circumstances and that I may learn at last to be a loving and patient Christian.

God bless you and yours, and I look very forward to your membership in our family.

With love in our Lord,

Fr. A.

[Herman Blaydoe]

The Holy Orthodox Church has always appreciated the vital role of women! And you do not have to look very deep to see it. We emphasize the actions of the Holy Myrrhbearers, who courageously went to annoint the Lord in the tomb, while the men cringed in hiding. We call many women martyrs and saints &#34;equal to the Apostles.&#34; Look at the respect we give to the Holy Theotokos, the God-Bearer. Do we treat her as &#34;second rate?&#34;

When Khruschev chided the Patriarch of Moscow, saying &#34;what will your church do when the last grandmother dies?&#34; Without hesitation, the MP said &#34;a new generation of grandmothers will replace them.&#34;

Perhaps it is different in some parishes, but in our parish, the women do not seem to feel &#34;second rate.&#34; They are the ones who make things happen, and I have yet to see one grovel, and few are &#34;timid&#34; especially at parish meetings. It is the selfless dedication of the women that keeps our parish functioning day-to-day.

We are all called to serve. We all have ministries. Some teach, some lead, some do great works of charity, some prophecy, some preach, some are simply called to be good fathers and mothers, maintaining the home Church and raising their children to the Glory of Christ. To denigrate any ministry, any role, even if it is as humble as sweeping out the parish hall as &#34;second rate&#34; is to do a great disservice.

[Nancy Forderhase]

Dear Marie,

This is the first time I have responded to a discussion on Monachos, but I must take issue with your perception of women in Orthodoxy, And I would like to ask you why you think that Orthodox women are timid and groveling? That is so far from the truth that I hardly know where to begin. The Orthodox Church is full of women saints who witnessed for the sake of the Church and intelligent and strong women who are part of the Orthodox Faith today.

What is it you expect from the Orthodox Faith, or any faith? Isn&#39;t it about worship and love of God, and not about power relationships between men and women? Should there be some sort of accounting board to assess the treatment of women? This kind of attitude seems to represent the pernicious influence of feminism, a kind of &#34;religion&#34; which has infected contemporary culture. Pardon me if I seem harsh, but I&#39;ve been through the culture wars, and feminism has nothing to do with Christianity, it seems to be a substitute for a genuine religious faith, and it can be very damaging, not only to women, but also to men and children, the offspring.

Yours in Christ,

Nancy Forderhase

&#62;

[Marie-Duquette]

Thank you Nancy and Herman for your honest responses. I am considering your posts.
and will return in a little while. Pray for me in my personal struggle, that is, that I often feel deeply that the &#34;Orthodox Church&#34; is a man&#39;s world.
I love the Church, the Body of Christ, worship and praise and love of God-Trinity in the Holy Liturgy...The Thoeotokos and both Woman and Men Saints. I guess I am just perplexed at this time through the personal experiences that I have had in the Church meetings. The Holy Spirit works through all of us, and for this I am humbled!

And, I hope that we will hear more from the point of view of women, mothers, and grandmothers in the Church. Through the prayers of our &#34;Fathers and Mothers . . .&#34;

[john choate]

Dear Marie,

In our small parish, our membership is comprised of probably 80% women. Women hold lay positions such as Parish Council President, Treasurer, so on and so forth. Women parishioners pretty much physically built our church building! See http://www.wcc.net/~egre/pg1.html and click on building pictures to see this. In the Orthodox Church there are thousands known and millions unknown women saints. Their icons adorn Orhodox churches and the faithful honor them and pray to them to intercede for us. The greatest Saint is the Virgin Theotokos. How could we consider her second rate?

I too have been to other Orthodox Parishes. The last one I visited, the Council President was a woman. And, she was hardly grovelling! http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

John

[Owen Jones]

There is a problem, however, that women are not encouraged into religious vocations. Of course, that would primarily be monastics, but parents don&#39;t want their sons or the daughters to become monastics. And priests who encourage that are in big trouble. So, the practical effect is that, other than in bureaucratic positions, women do not have saintly leadership they once had in the Church.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Owen,

I have noticed that there are women in many Orthodox churches that pray with much humility. There are woman who are Matushka&#39;s, &#40;Presvetera&#39;s&#41; who when they marry a man who becomes a Priest who stands before the altar,
By the Grace of God are in a unique angelic vocation. Perhaps the priests who hear confessions have more knowledge in some specific existential matters. If a parents sons or daughters who aspire towards monasticism believe that their only hope of salvation is by donning the angelic habit, and it is Gods will then so be it.

One of the Orthodox fathers Saint Hesychios the Priest has written:

&#40;It is written: &#39;Not everyone who says to Me: &#34;Lord, Lord&#34; shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father&#39; &#40;Matthew 7:21&#41;. The will of the Father is indicated in the words: &#39;You who love the Lord, hate evil&#39; &#40;ps. 97:10&#41; Hence we should both pray the Prayer of Jesus Christ and hate our evil thoughts. In this way we do God&#39;s will.&#41;

Owen, from my perspective if a woman in the Orthodox Church cleans the floor with the unseen &#40;by man&#41; tears from her God loving and fearing heart, she has indeed participated in the leadership woman have in the church. The most important thing is the salvation of our souls not what role we want to have in the church.

In Christ,

Matthew

[Owen Jones]

I guess I was just responding to what the person was seeing as obvious. Who would argue with your points, Matthew? And I&#39;ve seen too much evidence of the disaster of so-called women&#39;s liberation in the Episcopal Church to want to go down that route.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Marie,

I just logged on, because I spent the day cleaning out an old store room which had hundreds of my non-possessions. If you were to look back in our archives, you would see that this question concerning the &#34;place&#34; of women has come up before, and it is never very comfortable. I was raised Roman Catholic, and having been in high school at the time of Vatican II, all of my early education was dominated &#40; and I do not mean that in a negative sense&#41; by women. The sisters were strict but loving, and we learned about lots of women saints who are shared by the Orthodox Chuirch, St, Anna,Mother of the Theotokos, St.Elizabeth, mother of St. John the Baptist, St. Cecelia, St. Lucy, Martha and Mary, and in a very distorted way, St. Mary Magdelene. Then there were later saints like saint Catherine of Sienna, St. Theresa of Liseaux, St. Bernadette of Lourdes, St. Maria Goretti, St. Elizabeth of Hungary, St. Genevieve of Paris, St. Brigid of Ireland, and many others.*These saintly women were held up to us as shining examples of holy virginity and piety, being faithful to Christ and His Church.

When I became Orthodox, I learned of the Holy Mothers, like St. Mary of Egypt, whose entire life is read on Holy Thursday every year. St. Catherine the Great Martyr, St. Barbara the Great Martyr, St. Parasceve, St. Irene Chysvolanthou, St. Sophia and her three daughters, Faith, Hope, and Love, St. Marcella, St. Olga, whose grandson St. Vladimir Baptized Rus, St. Juliana the Housewife and Eual-to-the-Apostles St. Nina, Enlightener of Georgia, The Tsarina-Martyr Alexandra and the nun-martrys, the Grand Duchess Elizabeth and the Nun Barbara,: not such a &#34;shabby&#34; list, Marie, and the Church very much glorifies these holy women!

I am afraid that since the 70&#39;s of the last century, women woke up and felt that they had to be &#34;equal&#34; in all things, and demanded &#34;rights.&#34; But in Orthodoxy, none of us have &#34;rights.&#34; We are all bound to the teachings of the Church and to its hierchacal order. Our visitor, Mr. Just, could not undersand this point when he asked about how to attain salvation and fond that we Orthodox gave our sincere answers within certain perameters, and that we do not have the &#34;right&#34; to tell him what we think other than what we know that the Church teaches.

Several years ago, when the EU began to pour millions of dollars into the restoration of the major monasteries on Mt. Athos, I said to one of my monastic brothrs, &#34;FAther, do you think that the EU is doing this out of the &#34;goodness&#34; of their hearts?&#34; Well, now we see that a high woman offiocial of the EU is demanding that women be allowed on Mt. Athos because no to let them on is not granting them &#34;equal rights.&#34; I wonder what would happen if a group of men wanted to walk around and go swimming and sunbathing wearing little or nothing at all on the grounds of a large cloistered convent of nuns, what would happen.

Marie, try not to let an &#34;issue&#34; which really is not an issue at all bother you too much-the last I heard, we go to Church to pray, and we belong to the Orthodox Chrch because we believe it to be the True Ark of Salvation, and if we do believe that, then we should be willing to live within the structure She provides as given by Christ Himself. Be at peace, and please, pray for me.

Yours in the Saviour,

Fr. A.

[Richard McBride]

MONOCHOS: &#34;...a man&#39;s world?&#34;

So, what&#39;s the matter with timidity?
I ask that because I am far too far from such a desirable ideal.

And why not a little groveling?
Some of that too might be good for my soul.

Show me the timid and groveling ones, for I know I should learn from them.

Like Prof. Foderhase says, &#34;What is it you expect from the Orthodox Faith, or any faith? &#34;

richard mcb

[Richard McBride]

Blessed of the Lord, John Choate

Your Church has a very nice web page. I need to spend some time exploring it.

And do you mind if I ask how you pronounce your last, quite interesting, name?

richard mcbribe
[pronounced like it sounds, except in Mexico, where I am known as Mahk Breethay &#40;slightly rolling the &#39;r&#39;]

[John Curtis Dunn]

And
I would like to ask you why you think that Orthodox women are timid
and groveling?
--------------

Many people confuse meek and mild with timidity and grovelling.

john dunn

[Fr Averky]

Dear Marie,

I am sorry that I did not address your observation that women in Orthodox parishes grovel. If you want to know how tough women in parishes can be, just ask any Orthodox priest who is or has been in parishes!

There have always been apparent differences to emotional reactions to matters by men and women. If a large project needs to get done, the women will convince, or rather, tell their husbands that, yes, they do have to go to the church hall on Saturday and possibly miss the game because Father wants to do some remoledling in the kitchen. While men do the labour, their women see to them.. I well remember when an American parishioner of a large Russian parish who had a small local press in NJ, climbed up a tall tree to trim a large brance which had been struck by lightening, and when he stepped out onto a lower branch to cut it off, the branch he was standing on snapped, and he fell to his death right in front of his newly-adopted children from Russia!

There was a trermendous outpouring of grief, then support. Eight or ten priests served his funeral, and at least 300 people attended, It was a very sorrowful and emotional funeral, for the sudden tragic death had put everyone in a state of shock.

After the two hour long funeral, the rector invited all the mourners for a &#34;small luncheon&#34; prepared by the Sisterhood. Marie, it was a banquet, with roast beef, turkey, several viarieties of fish and seafood: seven or eight salads, all kinds of potato dishes, and an entire table of a dizzying number of desserts and pastries.

Now, you could say, &#34;While the big-shot men got to be standing around the altar serving the funeral for that poor young man, the women were &#34;goveling&#34; as they prepared the food.&#34; Their labours were just as important as the priests, for while the priests prayed for the reposed and gave spiritual comfort to the berieved, the women worked for many more hours than the service lasted, preparing the precious gift of comforting the those in sorrow, worn out from so many hours of grief. I can tell you further, if you had gone to them and asked them why they were content to grovel and work in the kitchen on such occasion, they would be shocked, not even know what you were talking about, then, they would be very, very angry!

As I posted recently, the women who accompanied our Lord stayed by Him to the end. When St. Paul writes his Epistles, he sends greetings to holy women who aided others in their growth in the life of the Church, like Phoebe and Priscilla. Marie, none of these women I have mentioned felt they were groveling, but that they were rendering their own particular service to God and His Church.. Sometimes we see certain situations, and we somehow personalze our perceptions in light our own personal feelings and experiences.


Praying not to offend you, I do not know your life and I do not know what your personal self-esteem might be, but never forget for even a second that you have the full dignity of being a child of God, worthy of salvation, just as any other person. As others have indicated, groveling for all of us is not such a bad idea insofar as we are all unworthy before the Lord due to our sinfulness. I believe that if others knew our sins and our ugly inner most thoughts and sinful secrets, they would not want to have anything to do with us, man or woman. God knows our hearts, and in His mercy, he covers us.

Again, when you go to church, say your prayers, listen to the Gospel, if you become distracted, either say the Jesus Prayer, or gaze at your favorite icon. After church, if there is a coffee hour, go. Also, if you can help your parish in any way, do so, and with a cheerful heart, for you need to want to please God, not concerning yourself who might &#34;important&#34; and who is secondary. There are a lot of men who grovel before their wives, and you cannot deny that.

One last story. When I was a novice, we were told the following story:

There was a young rassophore monk at the Kiv Caves Lava who was a simple and unlettered peasant. Because of his simplicity, he was given the obedience of taking bowls and dishes of food from the kitchen to the refectory. This took a very long time, for the monastery was quite large, with many /Fathers, and there were often many many pilgtrims. One day, as he was taking a dish of food to table for the 1000th time, he sqid to himself,&#34;I wonder if this, my poor small labour, pleases God. I know that I do this because my spiritual Father said it would be good for me, and I happily do it, for it helps my brothers.&#34; At that moment, God sent to this sweet young monk just a taste of the Gace that he was receiving for his humble [seemingly &#34;groveling] task. The young Father became completely bathed in Uncreated Light, and his brothers had to take him to his cell, and he continued to be in unearthly bliss for three days.


So you see, Marie, that monk, unoticed by so many, never sought out like the elders, or having others treat him with much respect, or perhaps even notice that he was there, found favor in the sight of God. Before that incident, the Fathers who knew him had always loved the young monk, but after God&#39;s hand had touched him, the fathers held him in awe. His name has disappered into history, but he is now glorious in heaven.

Marie to your greatest task, that is loving God and your neighbor, for if you do, you will be concentrating on you and your spiritual life, and not who is who and what is what. When you find yourself plagued with any such consideration, pause and ask yourself, &#34;Are these thoughts pleasing to God, and good for my soul?&#34; Marie, if you cannot say &#34;Yes,&#34; the dimiss the immediately!

God love you!

Fr. A.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Marie, I live in Greece and so I have first-hand knowledge of the way women are regarded in an Orthodox environment.

Woman are the strength behind men, Marie. This might sound trite and it is, of course, something that has been said time and time again. That, however, doesn&#39;t mean that it&#39;s not true. Father Averky and others have given examples of women and their role in the Orthodox church. I would like to give you my thoughts of what I personally know of Orthodox women and their world.

You probably know how family-orientated Greek society is. The reason Greece is family-orientated is it&#39;s Orthodox women. They are the ones that go to church every Sunday, they are the ones that raise their children to respect their elders, their country, and their religion. They are the ones that are the backbone of their families. This is not to say that men don&#39;t do all of the above, but it is women who are the silent strength behind the men, Marie.

My husband is a wonderful person, he is always there for me and he has always supported me. If I ever think deeply about why I am so happy with my life I would say that it is his presence and knowing that whatever I do or say cannot change his opinion about me and that this makes my life the way it is. He is the product of an Orthodox background, this is the way he was taught to regard women. And he learnt this from his mother!

The role of men and women is so complicated that you cannot easily separate one from the other.
The words &#34;timid and grovelling&#34; have been used to describe Orthodox women. We are anything but timid and grovelling. We are strong and we are not afraid to speak our minds, but most of all we know that we are the guardians of our homes and our families.

There are of course dysfunctional families in every country and in every religion but we are not talking about those.

Don&#39;t concentrate on superficialities. Learn to recognize what is important and what isn&#39;t. Do we really need to be priests to have our strengths recognized?? As modern women, shouldn&#39;t we at least have this option? I can&#39;t really answer that. I do know however that traditional orthodox roles have resulted in societies that respect both men and women equally.

Effie

[Fr Averky]

Dearest in the Lord,

I just knew if you would have a word for Marie, it would be filled with love, knowledge, and wisdom, a wisdom that only an Orthodox woman in you situation could Impart. The Holy Spirit gave you the words; let us pray that He will fill Marie&#39;s heart so that she will gladly receive and heed them.

Your words are always golden to me and they always give me &#34;maternal&#34;comfort and you are ever in my thouhgts and prayers. May our good Lord send ever-abundant blessings upon you and your God-fearing husband and your entire family, giving you the Grace to enter His heavenly kingdom. May the Most Pure Theotokos watch over you all the days of your life.

Respectfully in our Saviour,

Fr.A.

[Fr Averky]

Effie,

Forgive me, I forgot to put your name on the greeting on the above post!

Fr. A.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I&#39;m glad that you&#39;re feeling better, Father Averky. Thank you for your blessing - it means a lot to me. The friend I told you about in another thread is not doing too well at the moment. The doctors have changed her chemotherapy and want her to continue for another 6 months. She is in good spirits though and tries to lead as normal a life as she can.

Thank you also for all your kind references to me in various messages. I don&#39;t deserve them but I thank you anyway.

Effie

[john choate]

Thank you, Richard.



Our priest Fr. Elias Greer is also our Web Master. I’ll pass on the compliment.



My name is pronounced with a long ‘O’ silent “E” Phonetically, it would be spelled Chote.



Our family came to America from Essex in 1640. Most of our family genealogy hounds agree that the Choate name is a anglicization of the Dutch name “Van Shotte.”



As for Marie’s concerns, when my wife and I began that process of converting to the Orthodox Faith, she had the same fears and concerns that Marie has expressed. Our priest and others expressed basically the same responses that this thread contains. She found comfort and truth in this, and consequently became an Orthodox Christian. As I stated before, our parish is comprised mostly of ladies. They bake pastries, work bake sales, construct buildings, clean the church, work on the yard, and wrestle with the problems of starting a parish in most capacities in order to evangelize our community. I searched pretty much my entire life for the Truth which frankly, I from time to time had lost hope of ever finding. The very fact that my family and I found Christ is a result of these ladies’ love for Christ and His Church. I owe a profound debt to them that I probably cannot repay. While it may be true that perhaps that more attention is given to monasteries and the male Saints and the like, for me….what has made the difference between life or death for me, have been the ladies in the trenches here in the Church Militant. As Effie, Father Averky, and others have so beautifully pointed out, my debt extends to all of those women who so faithfully served the Church, so Marie, for what it is worth, neither I nor any man in our parish feels anything but love and an incredible respect for all Orthodox women.



john

[Dimitri Siriotis]

Hello All,

Does anyone have any idea how we can discover our patron saint? How does one know who their patron saint is?

From personal experience Saint Kosmas Aitolos always appears in my life. My first icon i painted was St Kosmas person who taught me iconagraphy his name is Kosmas. The first paid icon i was commissioned to do was Ag Kosmas.

My father insists our patron saint is St Anthony from egypt.

Im so confused has anyone got any information on how to seek and find patron saints.
God bless Jim

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Dimitri,

First of all there is the saint we are named after at birth- in your case this seems to be the Great-martyr Dimitrios probably the one of Thessaloniki. Normally if we are given a saint's name at birth or come to the Church with one as converts we keep this name. Then your name's day would be the day when that particular saint is commemorated. For St Dimitrios this is Oct 26.

There are also however saints whom we may call upon as a family- Serbs especially follow this tradition of the family patron saint at the service of the "slava". Perhaps your father is referring to this tradition when he says St Anthony is your patron.

Also there are those saints whom we feel especially close to and whom we call upon in a more intense way. There is nothing wrong with approaching St Kosmas in this way. I consider New-hieromartyr Raphael of Mitylene as my 'second saint'.

Also Greeks & I think Serbs often have names not of saints but of something holy within the Church- eg: Stavros- "cross", Panayiotis- "all-saints", I even met a Paschalios once on Mt Athos.

So as we go on in the Church we find that we can have more than one patron saint although usually we only have one saint we are named after.(I say usually because French-Canadian Catholics often have the names of two saints together; eg Jean-Marie- but I do not know if this practise was ever followed in the Orthodox East or not).

Apart from this general info it is always important to speak with your spiritual father and/or priest about this and also to understand that there are slightly different traditions in each national Church & sometimes in each parish.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Eric Holmquist]

I am seeking any and all information on the pre-schisim Orthodox community in the Scandinavian lands, especialy Sweden. Also I am most interested in my patron saint, which is Eric, &#40;hopefully there is one&#41;. Any help will be most appreciated. May Christ God bless your website.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Eric,

King Olaf of Norway is an Orthodox saint. His life can be found here (http://www.orthodox.net/western-saints/olaf-martyr-king-of-norway.html).

In Christ
Byron

[Anthony]

On a related tack &#40;I hope&#41;, I have been wondering what is known of the history of the &#34;Celtic&#34; church after the Synod of whitby. I was recently talking to a Scottish friend, who said that most of the clans upto the time of Culloden were never really integrated into the Roman Church, but clung to their Celtic &#40;i.e. Celtic Christian, though probably also partly pagan&#41; past.

&#40;I am aware, by the way, that the Synod of Whitby was introducing primarily Orthodox norms, rather than anti-Orthodox papal norms as is sometimes assumed.&#41;

[Anthony]

Dear Eric,

There are some useful articles on Western Saints, including St Siegfrid of Sweden, at Arimathea (http://www.arimathea.co.uk/hagioi.htm). I hope this helps.


&#40;To everybody&#41; I have another small question about patron saints: I believe there are a number of Saint Alexanders from the early church, but which one is most responsible for the popularity of the name in Greece? Whose feast do most Greek Alexanders and Alexandras celebrate?

[Banayioti]

Hi all im new here : ) I was wondering if someone can tell me who the patron saint for nightmares in the Orthodox Church is? my wife gets them alot and we would like a saint or Archangel to ask intercession of.oh and also patron saint for chastity is thanks. pete.

[Paul Cowan]

Hello Peter,

I have never heard of a patron saint for nightmares. You could pray through your gaurdian angel and the Holy Theotokos for their intercessions for you. As you learn more about the Holy Fathers, you may find some that had particular success in various personal issues.

As for Chastity, again the Holy Theotokos and St. Mary of Egypt. I believe also St. Moses the Black? and you will find many others.

In Christ
Paul

[Trudy]

the patron saint for nightmares


Welcome to Monachos, Pete,

I have nightmares a lot too. No fun. One of things I was advised to do is pray "Lord have mercy, Kyrie Elesion, Lord Have Mercy" until I fall asleep. I just keep repeating it. It has helped a lot.

The other thing I do is, as soon as I lie down in bed, I bless myself, say The Lord's Prayer, Hail Mary Full of Grace, and commend myself to God. Then using my prayer rope, I pray for each person in my family and others who've asked me to pray for them. As I start to feel myself drift off, I wrap my prayer rope around my wrist so it stays will me all night. (It is 100 knots.)

Doing both of these every night has helped enormously.

In Christ,
Athanasia (Trudy)

[Nina]

Pardon me please for unwittingly posting the same message twice.

[Nina]

Hi all im new here : ) I was wondering if someone can tell me who the patron saint for nightmares in the Orthodox Church is? my wife gets them alot and we would like a saint or Archangel to ask intercession of.oh and also patron saint for chastity is thanks. pete.

SAINTS CALLED UPON FOR SPECIAL PURPOSES

FOR HELP IN STUDIES
*The Three Hierarchs: St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory the Theologian
* St. Sergius of Radonezh
*St. John of Kronstad
*St. Nestor the Chronicler of Kievo-Pechersk
*St. Justin the Philosopher

FOR PATIENT ENDURANCE OF AFFLICTION
*St. Job the Much-Suffering
*St. Eustathius Placidas and Family
*Holy Forty Martyrs of Sebastia (especially in freezing cold weather)
*Holy Forty Two Martyrs of Amorion
*St. Pimen the Much-Suffering of Kievo-Pechersk

FOR SPIRITUAL HELP, CONSOLATION AND COMPUNCTION
*St. Ephraim the Syrian
*St. Alexis the Man of God
*St. Seraphim of Sarov

FOR A GOOD END TO ONE’S LIFE
*Holy Archangel Michael
*St. Niphon, Patriarch of Constantinople

FOR DELIVERY FROM SUDDEN DEATH
*St. Barbara the Great Martyr

FOR HELP IN DISTRESS, POVERTY ETC
*St. Nicholas the Wonderworker
*St. Martin of Tours, the Merciful
*St. John the Almsgiver of Alexandria
*St. John of Kronstadt

AGAINST DEMONS AND WITCHCRAFT
*SS. Cyprian and Justina
*St. Theodore Sykeote
*St. Mitrophan of Voronezh

FOR CHASTITY AND HELP IN CARNAL WARFARE
*St. John the Forerunner
*St. Demetrios the Great Martyr
*St. Moses the Hungarian
*St. John the Much-Suffering
*Holy Martyr Theodore the Byzantine
*Holy Martyr Ignatios of Athos
*St. Thomais
*St. Martinian
*St. Basil of Mangazea
*St. Mary of Egypt
*St. Joseph the All-Comely
*St. Susanna of the Old Testament
*St. Anysia the Virgin Martyr

FOR MENTAL DISORDERS
*St. Naum of Ochrid
*St. Anastasia
*St. Gerasimos of Cephalonia (for the possessed)

FOR ENCOUNTERING A DIFFICULT SITUATION, AN INTERVIEW, ETC
*St. David the Prophet, Psalmist and King
*The Holy Unmercenaries and Healers
*SS. Cosmas and Damian of Rome
*SS. Cosmas and Damian and their Mother Thodoti of Asia Minor
*SS. Cosmas and Damian and their brothers Anthimus, Leontius and Evropius of Arabia
*SS. Cyrus and John of Alexandria
*SS. Panteleimon and Hermolaus
*St. Mocius
*St. Thallelaus
*St. Diomedes the Healer
*St. Anicetus
*St. Julian the Martyr
*St. Zotious the Orphan-Keeper
*St. John of Kronstadt
*St. Nectarios of Aegina
*Holy Archangel Raphael

TO HAVE A CHILD
*St. Anna, Mother of the Theotokos
*St. Elizabeth, Mother of the Forerunner
*St. Sabbas the Sanctified
*St. Irene Chrysovalandou
*St. Symeon the Myrrh-streamer, Father of St. Sava of Serbia

FOR SAFE CHILDBIRTH
*St. Eleutherios

FOR THE CARE & PROTECTION OF INFANTS
*St. Stylianos

FOR YOUNG PEOPLE
*Holy Great Martyr Demetrios the Wonderworker

FOR MARITAL DIFFICULTIES
*Holy Martyrs Shamuna, Guria and Habib
*SS Peter and Febronia of Muron (also for newlyweds)

AGAINST DRINKING
*Holy Martyr Boniface and the Righteous Aglais

FOR TRAVELERS
*St. Nicholas (in general and specifically for sea travel)
*St. John the Russian (for transport, auto, busses)
*St. Niphon, Patriarch of Constantinople (for safety at sea)
*St. Christopher

FOR THE KITCHEN, HOME
*St. Euphrosynos the Cook
*St. Sergius of Radonezh (for baking)
*SS. Spyridon and Nikodimos of Kievo-Pechersk (for prosphora making)
*St. Juliana Lazarevsskaya
*St. Prochor of Kievo-Pechersk*

FOR TRADING
*St. Paraskevia

FOR COBBLERS
*St. Eustathius the Cobbler of Georgia

FOR PHYSICIANS
*St. Panteleimon
*Holy Unmercenaries
*St. Agapit the Physician of Kievo-Pechersk

FOR PERFUMERS
*St. Abo the Perfumer of Georgia

FOR HEADACHES
*Holy New Martyr Demas of Smyrna

FOR EYES
*St. Paraskevia
*St. Lucia of Sicily

FOR EARS
*St. Spyridon the Wonderworker

FOR TEETH
*St. Antipas of Pergamum

FOR HERNIAS AND INTESTINAL DISORDERS
*Holy Great Martyr Artemius
*St. Artemius of Verkola

FOR THROAT
*St. Blaise of Sebastia

FOR FINDING EMPLOYMENT AND FINDING A SPOUSE
*St. Xenia of Petersburg

FOR CHURCH-CHANTING
*St. Romanos the Melodist
*St. Theodosius of Chernigov
*St. John Koukouzelis
*SS. Leonty and Geronty, Canonarchs of Kievo-Pechersk

FOR ICONOGRAPHERS
*St. Luke the Apostle and Evangelist
*St. Alypius of Kievo-Pechersk
*St. John of Damascus

FOR PROTECTION AGAINST THIEVES
*St. Gregory the Wonderworker of Kievo-Pechersk

FOR STONE WORKERS
*Holy Martyrs Florus and Laurus

FOR SOLDIERS
*Holy Archangel Michael
*St. George the Great Martyr
*St. Barbara the Great Martyr
*St. Titus the Soldier of Kievo-Pechersk

FOR CAPTIVES AND COURT CASES
*St. Onuphrios the Great
*St. Peter of Athos
*St. George the Great Martyr
*St. Symeon the God-Receiver

FOR FINDING THINGS
*St. Phanourios the Great Martyr
*St. Menas the Great Martyr of Egypt

FOR ANIMALS AND LIVESTOCK
*St. George (cattle and herds)
*St. Modestus of Jerusalem
*Holy Martyr Mamas
*St. Parthenius of Radovysdius (cattle)
*SS. Spevsippus, Elesippus and Melevsippus (horses)
*St. Tryphon (geese)

FOR PROTECTION OF CROPS FROM PESTS
*St. Michael of Synnada
*St. Gerasimos the New Ascetic

FOR PROTECTION OF GARDENS AGAINST PESTS
*Holy Great Martyr Tryphon (also for hunters and the Patron Saint of Moscow)

AGAINST THE PLAGUE
*St. Haralambos
*St. Marina the Great Martyr
*St. Bessarion of the Savior, Archbishop of Larissa

FOR HELP AGAINST QUICK-TEMPER AND DESPONDENCY
*St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

FOR WORKERS IN HOSPITALS
*Holy Unmercenaries
*St. Dositheus, Disciple of Abba Dorotheus

FOR GUILELESSNESS AND SIMPLICITY
*Holy Apostle Nathanael
*St. Paul the Simple

FOR RAIN AND AGAINST DROUGHT

*Prophet Elias

[Andrew]

Thanks for sending us that list!

Saint John the Wonderworker and Saint Nektarios of Aegina are both beloved intercessors for whatever cares we may suffer.

[Nina]

Two more additions from recently celebrated feast-days:


Saint Symeon Stylites - for the return to the Church of those who have forsaken Her, or have been separated from Her.
The Mother of God, through her Icon of the 'Unburnt Bush', is regarded as the protector of homes from fire.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Nina, I thought I'd just look at this thread and when I clicked it a message from Father Averky addressed to me appeared. Full of love. And then I read my reply and saw it was about my childhood friend Maria, who was having chemotherapy at that time. She has died now and is at peace. So young and such a pure soul. Her mother told me that at the end it was as if an angel was present, and that my darling Maria died peacefully. Such utter waste! She was someone who was always there for everyone else, an angel herself. She died in Australia where she was born, but her mother brought her body back here to be buried. She wants to be near her. We had the 2 year memorial service a couple of months ago.

What an unexpected sadness reading that message.

[Paul Cowan]

She has died now and is at peace. So young and such a pure soul. Her mother told me that at the end it was as if an angel was present, and that my darling Maria died peacefully. Such utter waste! She was someone who was always there for everyone else, an angel herself.

Dear Effie,

Life and death are never a waste. What did God say to Job? " who are you to know why I do things" (paraphrased of course).

I have been told it is a terrible thing to tell parents a child was called to heaven by God so she/he can join His heavenly choir. That is a mean God to just want another vibrant sould to sing for Him

I have also been told God will sometimes allow a person to die in order to save that person from future sin or effects of sin that might have allowed that person to stray from Him.

But who are we to know the thoughts of God? Glory to God for all things, known and unknown.

Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Effie,

Life and death are never a waste. What did God say to Job? " who are you to know why I do things" (paraphrased of course).

I have been told it is a terrible thing to tell parents a child was called to heaven by God so she/he can join His heavenly choir. That is a mean God to just want another vibrant sould to sing for Him

I have also been told God will sometimes allow a person to die in order to save that person from future sin or effects of sin that might have allowed that person to stray from Him.

But who are we to know the thoughts of God? Glory to God for all things, known and unknown.

Paul

It's hard, Paul for those left behind. Her mother and father are still alive and her mother is slowly trying to pick up the pieces of her life. She feels comfort though when she visits her daughter's grave. She sits and talks to her. I said "utter waste" because she was quite young and a wonderful person. She was always the first to help when someone needed help. It seems to me sometimes that the gentle ones go first.

Effie

[Paul Cowan]

It's hard, Paul for those left behind. Her mother and father are still alive and her mother is slowly trying to pick up the pieces of her life. She feels comfort though when she visits her daughter's grave. She sits and talks to her. I said "utter waste" because she was quite young and a wonderful person. She was always the first to help when someone needed help. It seems to me sometimes that the gentle ones go first.

Effie

I agree with you Effie. It is hard. But Christ came to call the sinners and the "sick" to redemption. Those "gentle ones" are much closer to Him than we (I) am. Perhaps I have much more to learn than this young one did. Perhaps my struggle in life will reap crowns she has already attained. Perhaps because of the sin of my youth, God is allowing me time for repentence I have not yet realized I need to do.

Perhaps I don't know what I am talking about and should just let folks mourn without trying to defend God. (As if He needs defending)

Humbly
Paul

[Effie Ganatsios]

I agree with you Effie. It is hard. But Christ came to call the sinners and the "sick" to redemption. Those "gentle ones" are much closer to Him than we (I) am. Perhaps I have much more to learn than this young one did. Perhaps my struggle in life will reap crowns she has already attained. Perhaps because of the sin of my youth, God is allowing me time for repentence I have not yet realized I need to do.

Perhaps I don't know what I am talking about and should just let folks mourn without trying to defend God. (As if He needs defending)

Humbly
Paul

No, I don't agree that you don't know what you are talking about. You make me think more deeply about matters such as these. You make me see that there is a bigger picture and that I should have more faith and learn to accept the tragedies of life. I once read that " a true nun never fears death".
Obviously because of her belief that this life is just a preparation for our real life. I also believe this and I believe that this life is not the end. It's just that I cannot help remembering how she was and what she went through before she died. In some ways it's harder being far away than being close to someone at the end.



My friend's mother truly believes and I have seen how her faith has helped her. The pain is there but I have seen how she is slowly adjusting to life without her beloved daughter. Her belief that her daughter is "still alive" in spirit is what is giving her comfort.

Effie

[Nina]

Two more additions from recently celebrated feast-days:

Saint Symeon Stylites - for the return to the Church of those who have forsaken Her, or have been separated from Her.
The Mother of God, through her Icon of the 'Unburnt Bush', is regarded as the protector of homes from fire.

Tomorrow (September 15) we celebrate the memory of the Greatmartyr Nicetas the Goth.

We pray to St Nicetas for the preservation of children from birth defects.