Reasons for marriage

[Olympiada]

It has occured to me tonight that one should not marry based on desire because when the desire leaves, the marriage will be empty and unviable. Has anyone else thought about this?

[Theopesta]

Marriage is for Really Good Friends
www.dcmilitary.com/marines/hendersonhall/6_05/commentary/4733-1.html (http://www.dcmilitary.com/marines/hendersonhall/6_05/commentary/4733-1.html)
may be not orthodox

[Olympiada]

That was beautiful, and brought contrition to my heart, but in the contex= t of > the Orthodox faith, what does it mean?

[Olympiada]

One more thing, about the concept of a 'match made in heaven', where does that fit in Orthodox theology?

[Olympiada]

Sorry to blow up the list, but I am excited to have a coptic nun on line. You are what I have been looking for! So another question, if marriage for procreation and I do not desire procreation, does that mean I should not desire marriage? I mean that article you mentioned sounded good, but as you said, it is not Orthodox and the Church has a lot to say about procreation. You seem more liberal than the snide Americans. I want to move to Cairo! I was told that the American Orthodox are the most insane. The person who told me was right!

[Theopesta]

Dear Olympiada:

this search in the above link, saying "not orthodox", I mean not writen by orthodox writer.

but for me I learn many and many things when I read it to search about the best word and feelings used to express love to the others whoever the others are.
if I am not mistaken this is important to know what and how the depth of the self-persecuation is?

may be my english poor and not perfect to express what I want to say?

about your question:


if marriage for procreation and I do not desire procreation, does that mean I should not desire marriage?

my words not help me to express the answer, but if god'will not want the couple to have children I think this not break the true love and respection and mutual support,
to complete my answer you can read:

www.monachos.net/monasticism/celibacy.shtml (http://www.monachos.net/monasticism/celibacy.shtml)

[Owen Jones]

Does Olympiada know where I can get my Haldol prescription refilled on the cheap?

[Olympiada]

Theopesta, I do not think I am making my self clear. I am changing my voc= ation > from that of a married woman to that of a celibate woman. In other words = I am > ending my marriage. To be blunt, I am divorcing.

[Olympiada]

At the risk of looking like a fool, what is Haldol?

[Trudy]

Is the sole purpose of marraige procreation? And, I do not understand the comment about changing the vocation from marriage to celibate. There are those who choose to live a celibate life in the context of marriage and remain married.

I do understand Olympiada, that you are divorcing and the reasons as I recall reading about that on your blog. I do not understand the "vocation" terminology. Would you explain further?

Thanks, Athanasia

PS: How are American Orthodox insane? I'm with Owen! Though will Zoloft work? http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/talker.gif

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear friends,

Personal discussion about private circumstances (i.e. one's marriage, or divorce, or other such private matters) seem rather unsuited for public discussion. Please could such things be kept to e-mail between members. Ultimately it's for one another's good.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Yes I agree no more talk of marriage and divorce on a personal level. On a theological level there are those who would think marriage is for procreation and I DISAGREE entirely.

I was given the term 'a positive vocation to solitude' this year. If you would like to ask the person what they meant I would be happy to provide you with their website and email address. Just contact me off list.

BTW that blog is down and another one is up. If you want the address, again, contact me off list.

Oh yes you can ask that other person about the Orthodox being insane if you like, the American Orthodox that is. Again this was an understanding given to me this year by another person.

[Joanna Bakas]

Dear All,

Hate to be overly serious but it is disrespectful of those who have serious mental illness to make jokes about taking psychotropic medications. These kind of comments can be very hurtful. Alot of my pts are Orthodox Christains and could be reading these pages.

Joanna

[Olympiada]

And I want to add to that the I was stating the American Orthodoxy is insane and I stick by that. People are not allowed to feel their painful feelings. They are told to medicate them. Even my priest sermonized on this in regards to the widow losing her son. In today's culture she would be put on some many drugs she would be knocked out!

You tell them Joanna. I have been trying to get them to listen to popular psychology for weeks now and have had no success. I told them if I had a MA or PhD after my name they would listen. I hope they listen to you. They sure don't listen to me!

Yours in Christ
Olympiada

[Joanna Bakas]

Dear Olympiada,

Here in Australia we do not medicate people just because they have painful emotions but when they have an illness. I see alot of people who have been through painful events and treat them with psychological therapy. What I was referring to were people with illnesses like schizophrenia or Bipolar Disorder who do need to take medication and need our support, not to be made fun of.

Joanna

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

"Is the sole purpose of marraige procreation?"
Hopefully we're not getting into broken telephone here- but maybe the person actually said, "the purpose of sexuality in marriage is procreation."
I have heard this said ( I think there was a thread about this at Monachos awhile back) but never the above- if it was said it is absolutely wrong.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Olympiada]

Joanna,
Like I said, America is insane. I know what you referring to. I think we are on the same 'side'. America is like the Holy Land when Jesus lived there. It makes fun of the sick and insane. So I am throwing it back in America's face. America is sick and insane!

Fr Raphael
I do not think you can separate marriage and sexuality for marriage is the only sexual relationship condoned by the church and a lot of people would say the primary purpose for that sexuality is procreation, which I terribly disagree with, considering the whole earth has been covered with the human race since the 4th century. But seeing as the Byzantine Marriage Rite is written as such, the church still thinks marriage is for procreation, after all it petitions over and over again for fertility. I think it is time to update the Byzantine Marriage Service, but I am a post-modern thinker and unwelcome in the church.

Yours is Christ
Olympiada

[Father David Moser]

But seeing as the Byzantine Marriage Rite is written as such, the church still thinks marriage is for procreation, after all it petitions over and over again for fertility. I think it is time to update the Byzantine Marriage Service

I recall a pastoral conference (a diocesan metting of clergy) not too long ago in which this topic came up. I advanced this idea - that the primary purpose of marriage, of sexuality in marriage even, was for procreation of children. I must say that the words had hardly escaped my lips when our Archbishop spoke up quite clearly saying that this was most definitely NOT the teaching of the Church and that to take this position was a distortion of the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

The primary purpose of marriage is for the mutual salvation of the souls of the man and woman. This is accomplished by creating a "little Church" and also by being martyred upon the cross of each other, by denying one's own will for that of another (which is the icon of denying our own will for that of Christ). The begetting of children is an important extension of this purpose as well - for our children are incorporated into the "little church" of the household and both children and parents learn that they must sacrifice the unchecked exercise of their own desires and wills in favor of another.

Prot. David Moser

[Olympiada]

Well Father, what happens when one has been there done that not interested any more? Life long celibacy?

[John P. Nasou]

Haldol is a psychotrpic drug used to treat schizophrenia, manic = attacks, and aggresive behavior.

[Olympiada]

I did not say American Orthodoxy was schizophrenic. And really I meant American Protestant Fundamentalist Cult Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Church in America is very sane. I am very impressed with their writings on single parenthood, divorce and abuse. They are very progressive indeed! I was referring to Christ the Savior Brotherhood American Protestant Fundamentalist Cult Orthodoxy. I should have made that more clear. Owen do you participate in CSB? Athanasia, you? If not, don't worry about my comments. I still got a lot of bitterness to work through, but not at the OCA, at CSB. Sorry.

[Trudy]

Olympiada, my home parish is OCA. So I am confused with your post #16 and post #27 where you wrote, I was told that the American Orthodox are the most insane. and And really I meant American Protestant Fundamentalist Cult Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Church in America is very sane. It is unclear to me if you are specifically stating that the Orthodox Church as a whole in the United States of America is insane or whether you are referring to the Protestant Fundamentalist church, which is not a denomation as far as I know, but is a Protestant mindset.

I would agree that there are things that may be slightly off-base in the Orthodox church (little "c") meaning some thing and/or people need to be re-taught what is correct by virtue of the teachings of the Canons. But as to the Tradition handed down by the Apostles, which our Bishops and priests give to the people, I can't agree that they are insane. Forgive me for not understanding.

Also I cannot understand why the Byzantine Marriage service ought to be re-written to reflect postmodern thought. Therein lies some of the problem with understanding what marriage is or is not. We need to be taught and learn what is right and if it is through the Marriage service then Glory to God.

Fr. David and Fr. Raphael, thank you for the good instruction regarding what marriage is. That has been helpful to contemplate. The understanding of marriage in our world has been terribly skewed and I appreciate being able to read and absorb what is correct in order to apply to my own married life.

Forgive me my ignorance. Please teach me.

In Christ, Athanasia}

[Justin]

Regarding celibacy in marriage, it is quite common in the hagiographical literature. Then again, so is levitation. Probably something you should talk to your father confessor about, as he'd have a better idea than anyone on the internet as to what you are suited for. Regarding marriages made in heaven, the Orthodox faith is not bereft of examples of this (in fact the book of Tobit is largely based on that concept), but it's not a common theme either.

[Joanna Bakas]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the view of the church in regard to abuse in marriage? I ask because I often see women in these situations in my work. I am very clear in my boundaries - that my role is that of there physician/ psychiatrist and I refer people to their parish priest for spiritual guidance. I ask because sometimes women tell me that have to stay with their husband due to the teachings of the church. This does not seem right to me especially if children are being abused. Is my understanding correct?

Joanna

[Olympiada]

Athanasia, I was saying that Christ the Savior Brotherhood is American Protestant Fundamentalist Cult Orthodoxy. That being said, I love Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood. But I was in a Christ the Savior Brotherhood Mission for the formation of my Orthodox life and I got hurt. Now granted this term, American Protestant Fundamentalist Cult Orthodoxy was coined this year in a correspondence with some one whom I no longer hear from, although people expect that I would.

As to the Canons, those are principles to be applied by Bishops, not laywomen, not even priests. I will not discuss the Canons out in public. I already got in trouble for doing that on another list.

I am divorcing my husband. I do desire a life companion and a partner in parenting. I do not desire more children. The world is full of suffering humanity. Why should I add to it? I should not. So where does that leave me? To suffer for the rest of my life as a single mother because I do not wish to petition God for more fertility? And what of those couples who marry later in life. They are not even fertile. What do the fertility petitions have to do with them? You see what I am saying. The world has changed Anastasia. There are now single parent families and divorce. What of the needs of these new families? Even the OCA acknowledges single parent families and divorce in its encyclicals on its websites.

So you are married and I am not. Therein lies the difference. But I am not supposed to be discussing my divorce out in public. So please contact me off line if you wish to discuss further.
Yours in Christ
Olympiada

[Olympiada]

Joanna
I was given this link by a monk in the church:
On Marriage, Family, Sexuality, and the Sanctity of Life (http://www.oca.org/DOCindex-marriage.asp?SID=12)
Take a look. It has a section on abuse.
No woman is required to stay in an abusive marriage in the Orthodox Church in America. Tell your clients to contact their bishops, and the local child abuse prevention council, the local child protective services.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

If by abuse we mean spousal abuse (violence) or child abuse- then certainly the Church does not teach that one should submit to this.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Father Anthony]

Joanna Bakas wrote:

"Is my understanding correct?"

Of course she is correct. The following is from the publicly-accessible website of the Chicago and Detroit Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church:


Church Divorces are granted by the Spiritual Court based on the criteria appointed by the Zemskii Sobor (Council of the Russian Land) of 1917. These are, in short:

Apostasy from Orthodoxy
Adultery and Unnatural Vices
Incapacity for Marital Cohabitation
Affliction by Leprosy or Syphilis
Unknown Absence
Jail Sentence with Deprivation of Rights
Infringement Upon the Life and Health of the Other Spouse and Children
Incest or Prostitution of Spouse
Entering into a New Marriage
Serious, Incurable Mental Sickness
Intentional Desertion


So it seems to me that all of the comments about the Church being unresponsive is simply a matter of an individual's bad experience with a (perhaps) psuedo-Orthodox group.

It seems to me that in any case, we must look inward first when we encounter any problem in our spiritual life, and not make the Church the villan. Of course, "Church" means all of us - clergy and lay - who make up the Church.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Joanna Bakas,

As a fellow clinician I've worked with violence in families, and have a sense of the suffering this causes. I am not a priest or a spiritual director, but as a Christian I cannot see anything in Church teaching to prevent a woman from protecting herself and her children from an abusive husband. The Lord gave infidelity alone as the grounds for divorce, but the Church has always recognised that several other human reasons for divorce exist. Naturally, if the marriage can be saved this is a more desirable outcome; but if a man cannot respect the image of God in his wife, his children, and of course in himself, then it would be wrong, perhaps even sinful - it seems to me - to remain in his company. Nevertheless, I do believe there are many holy women who have suffered unjust husbands as part of their personal cross, perhaps even some who have healed their husbands through their own martyrdom. Obviously I'm not advocating staying in an abusive marriage, just outling some of the parameters of this spiritual equation as their appear to a Christian layman.

In Christ
Byron

[Trudy]

Thank you for the clarification Olympiada. No need to contact you off list. I appreciate your efforts.

In Christ,
Athanasia

[Olympiada]

Byron, Those are dangerous paths you lay out. I do not think in the 21st century that any woman should consider she is 'saving' her husband by staying in an abusive relationship. Personally I would like to see the church do more work around codependency. The church is doing work around alcoholism, which often drives a man to abuse his wife. Please do not advocate that an abusive relationship is a cross to bear. That is a misunderstanding. Neither the bishops nor the professors teach this. What, may I ask, are your credentials?

And Father Raphael, let us not forget that women can be emotionally abusive towards men and that mothers can and do abuse children. Let us not demonize men. Women are at fault too.

In Christ
Olympiada

[Olympiada]

Fr. Anthony
I beg to differ. I do not know Joanna's client, but I guarantee you that the laity and often the clergy of the church are ignorant and if a woman does not have the courage to go to the bishop she will listen to all the 'old wives tales' around her and feel compelled to stay in an abusive marriage AND get accolades for it from the community while divorce will just bring SCORN.

Do you know how much courage it takes for a WOMAN to end her marriage?! Can you even imagine? ESPECIALLY if she did not INITIATE her marriage as most women do not.

Please stop and think for a minute about what you are saying.

In Christ
Olympiada

[katya the nurse-aid]

well it is like Fasting...IF it is moves you closer to HIM and cast out passions, then Fast is REAL...so do even if you lose a lot of weight, you'll not be sick...

but is Fast came from pride...it will be shown you by HIM in the form of sickness...it will happend eventially, HE never can be tricked or put to shame...

so...if marrige IS profitable for the soul, despise sufrer, yet it will give result of chnaging hearts in bought...it will hapened, IF it is not suffering in HIS name and not pure sacrifies...then it will destroy everything...

[katya the nurse-aid]

ps

and becuse HE is ENDLESS...we can never have exact time to make sure it IS ot it is NOT working...it is process...endless...it may take years or days, or whole life...

but of course we have free will, and in the case of weakness HE allowed to devorce...

FREE WILL! and no one, no autority MUST stay in the way of person to choose...very bad practice here, to put nose in someones business when those one is not willing to ask their help...

[Olympiada]

Katya
I am sorry but your post makes no sense whatsoever to me. Can you try again please.
A woman can issue her husband a certificate of divorce for sexual immorality. It says so in the New Testament. Sexual immorality is not suffering, it is abuse. No one has to stay in an abusive marriage. An abusive marriage is not a path to sainthood. It is abuse. So says the bishops and the professors and I agree. What authority are you speaking on?

Olympiada

[katya the nurse-aid]

1. I'm not talking to you only....

2. sexual sin is the same as other ones (druggs, gamblings)

3. now it is not OT anymore...

4. you never know WHAT is your path to sainthood..

5. martyrdom of Saint was clearly abuse of the autority,
do you want by this take title of Martyr from
St.Catherine...be carefull dear! i'll fight you for it!

6. i'm speaking from autority of my own life exspirince,
which what we ONLY have to speak about...

so dear try againg to read and then to live, only by trying we are become esxpiriensed...

[Father David Moser]

re: abuse in marriage

As Fr Anthony points out the Church does allow for a divorce in cases of abuse (Infringement Upon the Life and Health of the Other Spouse and Children). That does not mean that every abusive marriage *must* end - simply that it *can* be ended. As both a priest an a (former) therapist I think that it is important to realize that each situation must be taken by itself in the context of the Church. These are, first and foremost, pastoral issues. Abuse should ideally never be tolerated, however, sometimes it is. It is the task of the pastor (and the counselor - who should be working in conjunction with the pastor on this, if not get a new counselor who will respect your religious beliefs) to apply the discipline of the Church in a way that is beneficial to the salvation of all involved. If a person remains in an abusive marriage in an attempt to preserve the marriage or to act for the betterment of the spouse - that is definitely a pastoral call the reasons for which are between the person and his or her spiritual father. But to remain in an abusive marriage is not a necessity, nor is it necessarily encouraged (nor is it discouraged - rather it is a pastoral issue between the person and their priest)

Olympiada talks about the difficulty faced by a woman who initiates a divorce. That varies from place to place, however, certainly I would not way that her experience is untrue or invalid - no doubt she faced that difficulty. However the divorce process is only as public as the parties involved make it. The Church administration, bishop, spiritual court, priest etc do not reveal the particulars of the matter to anyone unless they are involved in the situation already (as though to give witness to acts of abuse or infidelity or the veracity of other charges which are the basis of the divorce). If others in the parish know about the diovrce and who did what, it is because the parties of the divorce themselves revealed that information - there is no other way that it is available. I have been unfortunately involved in some divorce situations in the parish and in my experience the reaction to the divorce vary as widely as they do in the world. The husband will have "friends" and the wife will have "friends" - some friends will remain friends to both parties. One person may leave and go to a different parish, or they may both stay in the same parish in a peaceful relationship. Women who have initiated a divorce run no more difficulty - in my experience - than men, in fact they usually have an easier time of it as women are often seen as being the more "sympathetic" party in the separation. Now I realize that this is not a universal experience, there are always local variations, but it is my experience.

Fr David Moser

[Trudy]

Katya, thank you for the wise words you have shared. They are a great encouragement. Marriage is difficult even when the relationship is good. Because when we are in marriage we must ALWAYS work to continue to improve it and by doing that we improve ourselves and our spouse. Yes it is true, we do not know our path to sainthood according to God's will.

It is hard to know what is pride and what is not. The examples you've given are helpful to figure that out. Most everything has pride as its source, would you agree?

Athanasia

[Olympiada]

Saints are made by God not the church. Divorce can be a part of theosis. Saint Maria Skobstova was divorced twice.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Olympiada,

In my post to Joanna Bakas on the subject of the view of the church in regard to abuse in marriage, I clearly stated that:

1. I am a Christian layman, and
2. I'm not advocating staying in an abusive marriage.

In fact, I even suggested that in my personal opinion staying in an abusive relationship can end up being itself a sin, especially (but not only) where the care and protection of children is at stake. Again, I speak for myself, not for the whole church.

Also, I do believe there are many holy women who have suffered unjust husbands as part of their personal cross, perhaps even some who have healed their husbands through their own martyrdom. By pointing this out, I am not trying to glorify or excuse wife-battering or codependency; it just seems to me that the suffering we are exposed to in life can become meaningful, and even a spur to growth and repentance in ourselves and others, if we relinquish the attitude of the unwilling victim, and embrace it consciously - and Christianity encourages us to do that for the love and glory of God. If you notice my wording, I refer to "unjust husbands", not severely disturbed men who are putting the lives and health of their spouse or children at risk. As Fr Moser has pointed out, the details of each specific relationship and the path to holiness are a matter of pastoral concern between the couple and their spiritual father.

I do realise this is a delicate issue, and often quite raw emotions are touched upon when discussing it. If my post has been the cause of any offence or confusion to anyone, please accept my sincere apologies, and pray for me, a sinner.

Regarding my professional credentials, I have postgraduate qualifications in psychology, and am a licenced psychotherapist with several years experience working in the field of mental health, including 2 years for a women's shelter and domestic violence counselling centre. However, as this is a forum for personal debate, my posts here may be inevitably informed by my professional experiences at times, but they are never offered as anything but personal opinions.

Once again, sincere apologies if I've caused any offence.

In Christ
Byron

[Olympiada]

Byron
I appreciate your sincerity. But again I have to drive home the point that we are living in the 21st century, in a global society, in a post modern society. Who among us has grown up with proper attitude to be able to be a martyr for one's spouse? Not a one.

A friend of my priest's wrote a book on Marriage as a Path to Holiness. His name is Dr. David Ford and he teaches at St. Tikhon's Seminary. He acknowledges that we do not have the capacity to bear abusive marriages properly.

And I have to add that in 19th century Russia women were 'given' in marriage to cement political ties. Women never had 'rights'.

To advocate for this Orthodox 'martyrdom' is SICK.

Look at the teachings of Al-Anon. This sort of 'martyrdom' is UNHEALTHY. It will get a woman pity and sympathy. That is not sanctity. Meanwhile the woman who ends her abusive marriage gets contempt and scorn. Who are blessed in the Beatitudes? Blessed are you when men shall persecute you and say all manner of evil falsely for my sake for yours is the kingdom of heaven.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

As Byron & many others (Frs Anthony & David & others)have correctly pointed out this whole issue is a very delicate one and so one that we must constantly seek the guidance of the Church about.

The advice we have heard during this discussion is consistent with the general guidance of the Church that we should not adopt an ascetic way of life beyond our means. This is similar to the advice (even found in the canons) against seeking martyrdom in an undiscerning way. Notice however that neither of these examples are saying that asceticism or martyrdom are wrong- indeed in some way they are both essential (about martyrdom is meant spiritually in the sense of a dying to oneself in one's everyday life). Rather they are saying that excessive zeal not according to wisdom is wrong. Or rather that one must fight against selfish pride even in these things.

This brings us to the essential issue of enduring affliction which I think almost everyone here has referred to in one way or another. The acceptance of affliction in an Orthodox way is essential to our Christian life and should be the starting point of our spiritual life. The acceptance of affliction helps us grow in so many virtues- patience & humility being the chief. But the actual aim is to grow in reliance on Christ and love. In a word as time goes by we learn that enduring the afflictions that God Himself has allowed (note that- not that we have engineered ourselves) in an Orthodox way is what brings Christ's life to a situation that without this would be a dead-end.

Now the above is without a doubt a struggle to first accept and then to endure. There will be many times we will fall not only from weakness but also from our own pride in refusing to accept humbly what God has given us. The main thing then is to learn about enduring afflictions. And even those afflictions we had to set aside because they were beyond our strength- even these situations are a test of patience.

As the Elder Barsanuphius of Optina said: "The whole essence of the matter is to hold up through the course of treatment...If you abandon the treatment you can become even worse."

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[katya the nurse-aid]

dear, for one Love of GOD is fire, yet healing like, or warmin up, for other is a fire which is burned completely to the dust...depends on condition of the soul: wet, dry, extra dry...

and have capacity is also NOT the same...so do clay wet jar not able to hold on fire, nor water, but the the one who was in the oven does...

no one can or have to or able to force anyone to folowing the same path...we ALL have diferent paths...we are not clones...

you choose what you choose, don't try to make RULE out of it...you only proff by it...own unsertanty, about your own choosen way...like you are so scared, or know that you are not doing right, so do push others to belive, to gave you more certainly...

If you have HIS approval for it...you'll be peacful....

[Joanna Bakas]

Dear All,

I have found this discussion very helpful in looking at this issue in a broader way. It is clear that this is a complex issue and not black and white.

An option is sometimes for the non-abusing spouse to separate from the abuser and make a condition of reconciliation that the abuser obtain the help that they need to stop the abuse. This may be medical or spiritual help or often both. The control of the behaviour would need to occur before the couple moved back together. I am speaking of physical or sexual violence.

I think this is way the person can support their spouse but not reinforce or allow their bad behaviour. In some ways by allowing the behaviour to continue one could be also harming the abuser because their behaviour is bad and soul destroying, I think.

I would value the opinion of others

Joanna

[Tim Grass]

Katya... Your last post was great. Poeple have a tendency to think one way is the only way... what's wrong for them is wrong for everyone and what's right for them is right for everybody. As Fr. Vereshack said in a message above yours, it's not a situation about choosing for or against martyrdom or asceticism, but knowing how to make the right choice for a specific person. Like you say: "you choose what you choose, don't try to make RULE out of it."

Well put...

--tim

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I appreciate the contribution of so many to what has at length become quite an interesting discussion. The question of 'martyrdom' in a marriage seems to me far too undervalued in the modern world; and when it is valued (or disparaged -- either extreme) it so regularly seems misunderstood. In any case, it's never a black-and-white situation, as Fr Raphael pointed out above (his post no. 799 above). Simply saying that certain things are good and others bad (which may well be right and proper) is not itself a categorical assessment of the spirit of martyrdom, which has always to be at the centre of Christian life, married or otherwise -- nor does abuse of the ethos of martyrdom bespeak it negatively either.

I, as Mr Grass, also very much appreciated Katya's comments. Experience is an educator, and one from which pastoral counsel can be drawn; but setting global rules based on personal experience is always dangerous.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

A person, especially a woman in today's male dominated church, will often need help and support to make the decision to divorce, which is never an easy one.

There are many forms of stinking thinking as AA puts it, overgeneralization being the first.

It is my hope that we all become more sensitive to the needs of women and the children in the church and less sensitive of the needs of men to dominate and control. It is very inappropriate to take a way of life from 19th century Russian where women were given in marriage to cement political bonds and apply that way of life to today's global postmodern society. Many women are hurt by this. Many women stay in marriages far too long and end up being hurt even farther when the man commits adultery, which is only the tip of the iceberg. Adultery is a sign of situation gone on far too long. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and call it a day.

It is never good for children to remain in a family situation with hostility and tension. There is a right wing belief in this country that families must stay together for the sake of the children. This is a fallacy. This attitude is not promoted by the child abuse prevention centers.

I am greatly disturbed by the romantic mind state of the churches members that do not see real problems and real sufferings. I am greatly concerned that the pastors of the church do not advocate women staying in abusive marriages nor the members of the church. This kind of suffering can drive a woman into despondency and despair.

When communities deny and enable drug addiction everyone suffers in the long run.

[Theopesta]

dear olympiada,

with all respection and appreciation to your holy and celecial desires, I am not yet read all the above posts carefully, but if you accept might I say something inside me:

http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/triangle_right.gif "Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called." (1co7: 20).

the spritual ordeal present along where we go in this present life.
in being married as in ascetism as in the celibacy the same is constant.
these ordeal differ from one to other even in the same way.

http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/triangle_right.gif this my speacial feelings, the woman become weak when she does not struggle, when she takes all her rights, at this case where her stringht.

the holy life when we struugle not when every thing become holy in the outword.
the ture strenght of the women when she conflicts with temptations, when she keep her peace and not confused, then as a rock steadfast in front of all sorts of windstorms what ever, not as a superwoman but as a women see MIGHTY GOD in front of her eyes where she goes, at this time she will become a creative women.

the most important right for women is to give her the chance to be a struggler

http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/triangle_right.gif in the monastic tradation we have story of old monk, felt with confusion come from outward from the media around, he had decided to leave this place, preparing himself to depart, he see one like him and made as he made exactly, he asked this other: where you will go?

the other said: where you go I go with you.
this other the devil who puts his temptations in our way where we go

http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/triangle_right.gif olympiada, Iam not experianced in the laity life, so if my words not fine please accept many apologises

I think their is a gardian angle in every house, if Iam not mistaken the grace of GOD only can quench the flame of all passions,
if only one of partner asks the help of theotokos, the gardian angle, fast in hidden as one can, these enough to fill the house with all holy desires and love, --if Iam not mistaken

accept all appreciation to your decent tendency
IN ONE CHRIST, theopesta

P.S. I hope if this post not suitable to be on-line, feel free to cancel it with all thanks.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear All,

Thank you for all your interesting contributions to this important topic.

Olympiada, you wrote:


Who among us has grown up with proper attitude to be able to be a martyr for one's spouse? Not a one...To advocate for this Orthodox 'martyrdom' is SICK.

I feel this, like any other aspect of life, is deeply personal to each in the way it needs to be approached and understood; what is right for one is not necessarily right for another, and even what may be right for a person at one time in their lives may not be right at another time. The Orthodox conception of marriage as both a foretaste of heaven and a way of martyrdom (the symbolism of the crowning in the marriage service), as well as the teaching that marriage is as much a calling as monasticism, rings true for me, but that does not mean others have to accept it. I do not find these teachings incompatible with modern life, but I do view a changing society as informing and being informed (and blessed) by a Church which restates and reformulates the Truth in new contexts. I say this in the humility of a layman's opinion, and as someone who does not even pretend to begin to understand the mystery of martyrdom. I repeat however, that I do not advocate staying in abusive relationships or becoming codependent. As Fr Raphael and others have ably pointed out, there is a big difference between suffering in the love of God and the various pathological ways in which we try to regain control over our inner anxiety and confusion, e.g. by becoming abusive towards others or complicit in a perpetrator-victim bind.

In Christ
Byron

[Jill]

You are right, Olympiada, in saying that there remains a strong stigma against a divorced (or divorcing) woman, however, it is not only in "19th C Russian society". Many other nationalities regarded, and continue to regard such women the same way.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

They say that growing in simplicity & child-likeness is very important. Maybe one of our problems is that we do not notice yet how martyrdom or a rejection of it is woven into the fabric of life itself as God gives this to us.

For example a woman does not lash out at a child who is trying her patience- this is martyric. And so is not expressing irritation or any of the other passions.

Once we see this and begin to work actively with it we are really starting what is called a spiritual life. And it is this done within any situation we find ourselves in which slowly brings life to a situation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Olympiada]

Again, if a man provokes a woman to anger she will be more provoked to lash out at a child. Men have a great responsibility in marriage, greater than women. They are the head. If their headship is rotten, so will the marriage be.

[Olympiada]

theopesta
not everyone is called when they are married. some are called when they are single although they may be married in the flesh. if the priest marries them in the spirit because they are married in the flesh this is a mistake. the woman will suffer greatly. the man who can not control him self in the flesh can not control him self in the spirit and there fore can not control his house hold. no such man should be allowed to marry. no dry drunk. no fornicator. no addict. not with out a period of repentance.

the priest must be greater than the man who desires marriage. he must see past the flesh into the spirit. if the priest can not he should not be a priest and in charge of souls.

olympiada

[Trudy]

Anyone can attempt to provoke another to anger. The one who is being provoked does not need to respond in kind, nor make the choice to lash out at a child. While the husband is the "head" and their responsibility is greater, this does not in any way diminish the woman's responsibility in the marriage relationship. In this they are equal, yet complimentary to one another.

Theopesta dem makes a good point regarding our guardian angel. Doesn't it say in scripture that if one in the household is saved, the whole household is saved? (I, of course, cannot remember the reference.) Therefore, if one (in this case the woman) prays for the health and salvation of the spouse and children, God hears and answers our prayer according to His holy will.

She also makes a good point here:


"the woman become weak when she does not struggle, when she takes all her rights, at this case where her stringht. the holy life when we struugle not when every thing become holy in the outword. the ture strenght of the women when she conflicts with temptations.

It is when we are struggling and suffering that our efforts are blessed by God and we become stronger. Isn't it true that the tree which is buffeted by the heavy winds, drives its roots down deeper, to gain a stronger foothold? Thus as theopesta dem says, the woman's true strength comes when she is in conflict with temptations. And this is true not just for women but for all peoples.

This is a fruitful discussion to be having at this particular time of the year. Thank you for engaging us in it Olympiada.

In Christ, Athanasia

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Fr Raphael,

Thank you for your post, which reminds me that every single moment in our lives is an opportunity for spiritual growth (or its opposite), and confirms my own thought on the issue. Of course this makes life very difficult, which is a bit of an understatement. But sometimes I personally forget that the spiritual life is not just during our prayers or in church. If I've understood your last post correctly, you are saying that every single challenge met with patience and love is noticed by the Lord. This seems to me an important and optimistic message.

Dear Olympiada, I do agree that men ought not provoke their wives to anger, and that children often pay, sadly, for the tensions that exist between couples. One great way for a man to care for his children, apart from directly, is also indirectly, to take care of his wife. I also agree that men have a great responsibility in marriage, and that this may well be related to their spiritual role, the "headship" you refer to. I would like to hear what others think, but I am personally cautious in regarding this spiritual role and searching for its meaning. I don't think it means that men have a greater responsibility in marriage than women (I think the responsibilities are different, but equal in importance), nor does a man's "rotten headship" exonerate a woman from mistreating her children (the "he-made-me-do-it" hypothesis). I do think however, that a husband should love his wife and be prepared to sacrifice everything for her, and that women who experience less than this in marriage are indeed suffering an injustice. How they suffer this injustice is a mark of their own character and a function of their own profound spiritual role as wife and mother.

In Christ
Byron

[Olympiada]

Dear Byron,
Sometimes a man's rotten headship forces the woman to end the marriage for the sake of the child. Sometimes the woman has to make the difficult call of protecting her child. Sometimes the man's abuse of the woman is so unendurable that the child pays the cost and the marriage must end.

This promotion of suffering in the name of marriage is unhealthy and backwards. Women can suffer depression and post traumatic stress disorder due to abuse in marriage and the child's needs do not stop. It is not honorable to remain in a marriage that causes depression and post traumatic stress disorder. It is a sin. Suicide is a sin. Self destruction is a sin. It is a sin to stay in a self destructive or destructive marriage just as it is a sin to get involved with destructive men.

A woman needs to have a healthy sense of self. This needs to be provided for her by her parents. If she does not, she will suffer greatly. God protects the orphans and the widows.

In Christ
Olympiada

[katya the nurse-aid]

sin is a regect the call, HIS call, in HIS calls are all diferent, like sound of the phones are...JUST diferent!

[Trudy]

the man who can not control him self in the flesh can not control him self in the spirit and there fore can not control his house hold. no such man should be allowed to marry. no dry drunk. no fornicator. no addict. not with out a period of repentance.

This pretty much rules out a good portion of the male gender.


the priest must be greater than the man who desires marriage. he must see past the flesh into the spirit. if the priest can not he should not be a priest and in charge of souls.

Ouch!

I dunno. This seems pretty harsh. But that may just be me because there is no doubt that your suffering is great Olympiada. More so than any I've ever experienced.

May God grant you healing and peace.

Love, Athanasia

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Olympiada,

Probably you can see that if our starting point is "sometimes" and then the listing of a sin, then the actual list would be almost endless. The end result would be confusion or an excuse for every situation. Plus almost inevitably the discussion becomes personal & emotional (what I mean is that it is striking that our list did not include the very much more common, "sometimes couples are offended and hurt by each other's words- what to do?" )rather than one of trying to discuss what Christ's will is in regards to marriage.

As we know Christ said to take up our cross and follow Him. This applies to marriage as we can see in the very symbolism of the crowns raised above the couples' heads during the service which represent the martyrs' crowns.

So I think our discussion should be a general one about what situations God calls couples to submit to or not and how the cross enters into this. Anything else risks an unfruitful discussion about our own personal situation which few want to judge anyway- especially on a forum like this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Olympiada]

Fr Bless
Christ does not call couples to submit to mental illness nor to addiction nor to abuse. In these situations couples should not get married. If they do inadvertently and problems arise they should be allowed to dissolve the marriage without judgment.

The church is harsh. Many suffer in unrepentant marriages because they feel trapped and the children bear the brunt of the pain. The children have no advocate. The parents are responsible for them. The parents can abuse them in the name of love and be excused. This needs to stop. Child abuse is rampant in the Orthodox Church. It does not please God. People need to get their minds out of the 19th century and come up to the 21st century. Otherwise the children do not stand a chance.

Corporal punishment was acceptable in 19th century Russia. It is not acceptable in 21st century America. The church is behind the times and needs to come up to date quickly.

Again the parents state of mental health drives the marriage. If the parents are sick, children will suffer. Sick parents hurt each other. Sick families should not stay together. Nor is it a valid reason to marry to fix a sickness.

Take a close look at Generation X. You will see these problems are rampant.

[Tim Grass]

Christ does not call couples to submit to mental illness nor to addiction nor to abuse.

Blessed are you when men shall revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice then and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

People shouldn't try to make global rules out of their own experiences... especially when Scripture refutes the 'Rules' made out of them. Indivdiual situations are individual.

--tim

[Tim Grass]

Hi everyone. I know my messages are pretty brisk most of the time, so I'll give it another go.

I think it's really unhealthy to try to have discussions based on poeple's personal experiences being globalized as rules for everyone... globalizations are very dangerous, especially to Christians, and so is thinking our own experiences are the foundations for changing everyhting.

Russia's past records on corporal punishment are not the same is the church's...

"Sick families should not say together" isn't a global truth. It's not true in every case. Sometimes it's totally wrong...

"Christ does not call couples to submit to mental illness nor to addiction nor to abuse" is true sometimes... sometimes it's totally untrue.

Claiming the Orthodox Church is so horribly wrong about families, marriage and children based on certain experiences is not responsible... neither is taking bad experiences and making rules against martyric spirit, or claims that all kinds of mental illnesses effect people in the same way... and should be repsonded to in the same way.

--tim

[ChristopherK]

Dear Olympiada,

I do not know your personal situation, but it must be extremely spiritually painful for you as your posts demonstrate. I am very sorry to hear this and I hope you will find the path prepared for you by God.

I know of a situation where a husband was helped to repentance through his marriage, making it possible that both he and his suffering wife could be saved (instead of maybe both being lost individually). One should also bear in mind that the so-called offender in the relationship is him- or herself already a victim of Satan, who is the true offender.

When you say that "a man who cannot control himself in the flesh cannot control himself in the spirit and therefore cannot control his household - no such man should be allowed to marry" you are mistaken. Firstly, what man or woman can truly control him- or herself? We are ALL sinners! Secondly, consider yourself; are you (always) in control of yourself?

Judging those who are drug addicts, etc. helps nobody - only God knows our hearts and our fate. It is possible for a repentent and humble drug addict to go heaven and for a proud pharisee to go to hell.

You wrote in an earlier post that "I am divorcing" and a lot of other I am doing this or that. If it is the "I" who is doing things, then you had better watch out - the "I" tends to be more susceptible to listening to the devil than to Christ.

To make room in our hearts for God, we need reduce the degree of selfishness (the "I") that has hold there. We need to deny ourselves and take up our cross for the sake of the Kingdom. This can take place in small steps - thinking of the needs of others before our own, praying even though we don't feel like it, giving something up which we want, but takes us away from God (e.g. television). Just because “I” think it is good, does not make it good – it could be a trap the devil is setting for me to finally ensnare my feeble soul..

I am not saying that you should not get divorced (I have no idea what is best for you), but that it is safer to be guided by somebody with greater spiritual purity. I have also been told that if one prays fervently to God before seeking advice from a priest or spiritual father, then whatever the "quality" of the priest (i.e. even if the priest is not very spiritual), then God will grant you to know His will through him. There is a story from one of the Athonite monks about a very advanced elder who would do nothing without a blessing. When he was ill and there was only a child there, he asked him two or three times for a blessing to take food and only after the child had given the blessing each time did he eat. Again, this is not a literal recommendation, but shows how far we are from true faith and how need to learn to rely more on God and less on our selves.

But these things are according to our faith, so if you do not believe it, then it may be better not to try it, but to fervently seek out an elder who can give you spiritually profitable advice (maybe a pilgrimage to one of the many holy monasteries in North America?).

There are Saints who were personally familiar with abuse/illness/family problems and it could be a great spiritual blessing to get to know them by reading about their lives and praying to them. For example, St Mary of Egypt, St Moses the Virgin and St John the Longsuffering (of the Kiev Caves), St Xenia of Petersburg (also known for her prayers to convert family members to Orthodoxy), St Panteleimon the Healer, St Nicholas the Wonderworker (who prevented a father from prostituting his daughters). There are also special icons of the Mother of God, for example a Russian one called somethink like “The Untouchable (or Undrinkable) Cup”. One can pray to the Guardian Angel of the person who is causing offense to ask his Angel to protect him from temptations.

Olympiada, please fogive me if I have said anything that offends you. Of course I cannot understand your situation and what you should or should not do, but very often we ourselves do not have enough “distance” to understand our own situation and should therefore seek spiritual guidance from somebody who is more detached. If you are not on the path towards God, I hope you will find it and if you are already on the right path, that you will not lose your way. I myself am still looking for the way.

May God bless you!

With love in Christ,

Christopher.

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Useful and relevant I think

Fr. Ted Stylianopoulos


Ask Fr. Ted
What is the Orthodox position on divorce and remarriage?





Q. What is the Orthodox position on the indissolubility of marriage, divorce and remarriage, and why?


The Orthodox Church views marriage as a holy union between a man and a woman that is established and blessed by God. Marriage therefore is "a bond of a covenant that may not be broken," according to the words of the sacrament. And yet the Church, for certain grave reasons, permits divorce and remarriage. This seemingly paradoxical position arises out of, on the one hand, respect for biblical teaching and, on the other, compassionate concern for human weakness.

The authority for the unbreakable character of marriage is Christ himself. In Mark 10:6-8, Jesus rejects divorce allowed by the Mosaic Law (Dt 24-14) and appeals to God's order of creation: "God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh" (Gn 1:27; 2:24). Then he commands: "What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder" (Mk 10:9). The same teaching is found among the radical standards of conduct proclaimed in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:31-33). These principles are intended for all those who accept Christ's saving message and commit themselves to live by the reality of God's kingdom revealed by Christ.

The Orthodox tradition has always fostered the ideal of the permanency of marriage on the basis of Christ's teaching. For example, the great Church Father, John Chrysostom (fourth century), writes, "Both by the manner of creation and by the manner of [new] lawgiving, Christ showed that one man must dwell with one woman continually and never break off from her." In his book "Against Remarriage," Chrysostom goes as far as to counsel widows and widowers themselves not to remarry but to remain faithful to their deceased spouses and honor their memory.

However, because of human frailty, not all people can uphold the ideal of the permanency of marriage. And the radical principles of the Sermon on the Mount must ultimately be interpreted in the light of the Gospel, not law. In cases of moral failure, the Gospel requires that we respond to people with compassion and forgiveness, not judgment and condemnation. According to the Gospel of Matthew, divorce can occur for reasons of "unchastity" (porneia, literally "fornication"), probably referring to sexual misconduct (Mt 5:32; 19:9). Similarly, though St. Paul mentions the standard of Christ's strict teaching about marriage, nevertheless he accommodates his pastoral instructions to human weakness, including the possibility of separation and divorce (1 Cor 7:10-15).

In this spirit, the Orthodox Church has developed the principle of "economy" ( oikonomia, meaning "flexibility"), by which it permits divorce and subsequent remarriage. But it does so only in the context of individual pastoral guidance, and for grave reasons such as abandonment, permanent insanity, adultery, forcing the spouse into prostitution, or endangering the life of the spouse. In such cases, it is not that the Church "dissolves" a marriage by granting a divorce, but rather that the Church officially acknowledges and certifies that a marriage has already tragically failed. To quote St. Cyril of Alexandria (fifth century), "It is not a writ of divorce that dissolves marriage before God, but bad actions." The Church acts by God's mercy to recognize the failed marriage and to allow the possibility of another in order to forestall worse moral consequences.

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

"Acquire the spirit of peace and thousands around you will be saved." - St. Seraphim of Sarov

We can acquire the spirit of peace and change thousands, or we can act violently, in word or in deed or both, and no one will listen to us. It's our choice.

Aaron

[Olympiada]

This discussion board is not recovery or therapy. It is for looking at the principles of the church.

Marriage and divorce are choices made by individuals. Marriage is a personal relationship, a relationship between two persons. That is what it is supposed to be. If there are not two persons to enter into a relationship, then there is not a relationship.

Paul Evdokimov writes about the personalistic concept of marriage and the need for persons to be inwardly free in order to enter into the state of marriage. Anyone with issues of addiction or codependency will need a lot of help in order to be prepared for marriage.

Too many people today see marriage as a physical comfort and seek marriage as a physical comfort. This an error in judgment and a mistake. The children born to such marriages will suffer tremendously. Communication skills are severely lacking in Generation X. The church is composed of its members. This is who is lacking in compassion to the suffering of children.

Adults think they have a right to talk down to children because they are children. Bond this with addiction abuse and codependency and you have the atom bomb.

In Christ
Olympiada

[Olga]

Dear Christopher

The icon of the Mother of God you refer to is known as "Inexhaustible Cup" http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif. This icon is certainly associated with help in overcoming alcoholism and other addictive disorders.

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear Olympiada and All,


Paul Evdokimov writes about the personalistic concept of marriage and the need for persons to be inwardly free in order to enter into the state of marriage. Anyone with issues of addiction or codependency will need a lot of help in order to be prepared for marriage.

While it is certainly generally true that issues of addiction and codependency can harm a marriage, a person needs to be inwardly free in order to be successfully single, too. How else do the monastics manage? We all have "issues" all the time, but the important thing, it seems to me, is to struggle to accept ourselves as we are and move on, towards ever greater improvement.


Communication skills are severely lacking in Generation X. The church is composed of its members. This is who is lacking in compassion to the suffering of children.

I do not understand the above quote. Are you saying Olympiada, that the Church is responsible for Generation X lacking communication skills, because it is lacking compassion to the suffering of children?!

Olympiada, I cannot help feeling that you are looking for reasons to be angry at someone or something. Others have suggested, and I will second the notion, that this forum is not the appropriate place for that, which you also acknowledge:


This discussion board is not recovery or therapy. It is for looking at the principles of the church.

What I'm saying is, I think you've opened up a potentially very fruitful area for discussion, but perhaps a little more focus on single issues without generalising too much, and at the same time showing the rationale behind statements, would help. I also want to thank fellow monachos.net posters for their interesting postings and obvious concern for you, Olympiada, in the difficult times you are going through.

Please do not be discouraged by what I write, I really mean these things in the best spirit!

In Christ
Byron

[Olympiada]

Each generation brings their own experience into the arena of marriage. To bend Generation X to the teachings of the fathers takes much care and concern least they break.

This discussion is not for individual issues but for generational issues. If one can not discuss the generation they belong to and it's influences, then their is no hope for repentance.

In addition there are modern theologians such as Paul Evodokimov that write on marriage that are not honored among this community.

If this community hopes to be the light and salt of this world it is going to need to be a little more inclusive of those who grew up outside the saving enclosure of the Church. Otherwise this community has no hope of saving souls who are caught in the cross fire. Souls are perishing out in the world today from vice and the members of the Church who judge them do not help them.

The majority of these posts have carried a judgmental tone which is not the spirit of Christ who dined with sinners. If this community can not host one of that generation who has grown up a child of the sexual revolution what hope is there for the millions perishing outside these discussions?

This indeed has a most discouraging discussion.

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Olympiada,

It is certainly beyond the scope of this community to 'save souls.' If that is your hope, I am afraid you will always be deeply disappointed.

There are numerous people in this community that grew up outside the saving enclosure of the Church. They have run to this saving enclosure, not demanding that this saving enclosure 'catch up with the times,' but in an effort to learn how they may gain wisdom from the 'mind of the Church.'

Certainly, the Church is a very 'fluid' organization and must change outwardly, while maintaining the same inward spirit, as the times change. However, the notions of martyrdom in marriage and many of the other topics discussed in this thread cross all cultures and all times, both past, present, and, I would bet, future. As has been mentioned, how this plays out in individual cases is best left to the individuals involved and their spiritual father/parish priest/bishop. We simply cannot apply these principles to all cases, especially over an internet forum.

Finally, please understand that people, at least in my estimation, are not trying to be judgmental of you. From what I've seen, most of them have been very sympathetic and kind, which is, of course, what we would expect from an Orthodox Christian community. With that said, there are going to be disagreements. There is no need to take these disagreements personally or to assume that someone is being judgmental of you.

May the God of peace bring you peace and joy, especially during this holy season!

Aaron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

This discussion group is a microcosm of the Church. Most of the time we succeed in having a fruitful (if at times heated!) discussion about the things of Christ and the Church. But at other times we see the reality of the tremendous struggle that we have in being obedient to Christ's call. And in a way this is more real than some of our discussions.

The problem however is that the more the balance tips from a struggle with obedience to an active rebelliousness the more our communication becomes disruptive and filled with anger. This is because either consciously or not we have engaged in the frustrating exercise of trying to force others to accept our rebelliousness as if this justifies our behaviour.

What should be clear after awhile is that through this type of behaviour we deny ourselves the very thing we crave- human contact and communion of thought & mind. We can only pray that either through a flash of self-recognition or through the school of hard knocks we come to see that Christ's word about humility & obedience is exactly the thing that will fulfill our deepest human aspiration for human contact.

If anyone is wondering what any of this has to do with the theme of this thread "reasons for marriage": one of the main reasons marriages break down is one or both spouses not recognising how much their marriage depends on their being obedient to Christ's word.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

I agree with Aaron that the spirit of this thread has been by and large very open and accepting of varying points of view, keeping in mind that 'points of view' will, by definition, be different, depending on the point. But difference is not conflict.

I'm quite sure it's not right to say that people like Paul Evdokimov are not respected by the members here present: his writings are well known, and have more than once been referred to in these discussions. They are also often misunderstood. As others have pointed out, individual circumstances of course influence the way we think -- and the way we read. An author writing that we should be free from interior bonds in approaching marriage is not in fact the same thing as saying that all such bonds are prohibitive of marriage. As has been said above, who is ever entirely free of such bonds? But our life is a struggle for this kind of purification. All my encounters with truly fruitful marriage, sanctified and sanctifying, have been in witness of a husband and wife who assist and aid one another in this purification: engaging each in it personally, interiorly, but also together, one with the other, to overcome collectively, 'as one', bonds that otherwise would be faced alone. True freedom is a guide for entry into marriage; but rather like humility is a guide for entry into prayer, yet also that which comes about through and by prayer, so freedom comes in and from a holy marriage and is not simply its pre-requisite.

None of this is to attempt a 'global rule' at what constitutes 'right approach' to marriage. I think part of the problem that has been addressed in the dialogues above is precisely that the modern trend towards universal systems of characteristics and criteria is not represented in the way of the Church. It is too easy to forget the reality that our urge to create such global norms is borne out of our own struggle and experience -- successes, but also defeats; and I do not speak simply of the falls from which we 'learn something', but our actual defeat, i.e. failure to be that which we wish others to be -- and as such our experiences are personal and individual in a way towards which our tendency toward universalising norms is antithetical. The ancient way of the Church, however, is pastoral uniqueness: each situation is its own, each person, each group of persons, each relationship, a unique reality before God and man. The Church gives guidance, but her 'rules' are canons, guides -- measuring-sticks along the way.

To judge a spirit of martyric self-emptying in marriage universally wrong is as unhealthy as never judging it wrong at all. Claiming that total freedom is a prerequisite for marriage is as wrong as claiming that none at all is needed. That the past ought to be discarded is as unhealthy as saying that it is our only perspective. But the way of the Church is to ask: what can you, you as unique person, undergo martyrically? How free will you be?

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Here are the quotes from the books so that we can be sharing the same thoughts. The first if from The Sacrament of Love by Paul Evodokimov. This is on Married Love and Divorce


No minister of the sacrament can fathom the depth behind the Yes pronounced by a person. It often remains a mystery for the person himself. There is no possible, formal human way of verifying and testing the quality of love, its duration, its depth. Nonetheless, in a union contracted out of interest, or imposed under external pressure, in a union between persons who are not inwardly free, the bond has nothing in common with marriage in the mystical and sacred sense of the word. Love, the very matter of the sacrament, is missing or has completely withered

And another by a new friend of mine a very close of my priest's family. He married this couple. The wedding with my priest officiating is depicted on the cover. This book is called Marriage As A Path to Holiness by David and Mary Ford. Dr. Ford is a professor at Saint Tikhon's Seminary. This paragraph is in relation to Saint Thomais of Lesbos, she is an intercessor for those sexually abused and tempted. Her father-in-law murdered her for her refusal to submit to his seduction


Although Saint Thomas provides us with an extraordinary example of long-suffering, a genuinely Christian virtue, we also remember that probably few are able to endure in the proper such physical and emotional abuse from their spouses as did Saint Thomais, SAINT SUSANNA of GEORGIA (August 28) and SAINT GOLINDOC (July 13). While the saints have much to say about the great spiritual value in bearing tribulations and suffering nobly-which should never be forgotten-they also point out that "God does not demand of us what is above our strength." The Orthodox Church, while always upholding the ideal of the eternality of marriage, allows separation, and even divorce, in such cases, recognizing that one of the spouses has already broken the marraige bond of love. Yet even if a wife or husband decides that is impossible to continue living with an abusive spouse, nevertheless the attitude of unconditional love and forgiveness of wrongs, as demonstrated by Saint Thomais, should always remain the goal.

[Vasiliki D.]

Church Divorces are granted by the Spiritual Court based on the criteria appointed by the Zemskii Sobor (Council of the Russian Land) of 1917. These are, in short:

Apostasy from Orthodoxy
Adultery and Unnatural Vices
Incapacity for Marital Cohabitation
Affliction by Leprosy or Syphilis
Unknown Absence
Jail Sentence with Deprivation of Rights
Infringement Upon the Life and Health of the Other Spouse and Children
Incest or Prostitution of Spouse
Entering into a New Marriage
Serious, Incurable Mental Sickness
Intentional Desertion



My interest lies in the last point "Intentional Desertion".

If a practising and sincere Orthodox Christian has been "Intentionally Deserted" by their spouse and the spouse applies for a legal divorce but to spite the Christian does not apply for the church divorce should the Orthodox Christian left behind apply for the Church divorce? Say, that time has passed since the "intentional Desertion" and the OC wishes to pursue marriage since monasticisim isnt for them does he/she have a "stain" if they are the ones who break the religious union even though they are not the ones who instigated the intentional desertion and it is quite clear that the one who left the marriage does not apply for the religious divorce so that they can be cruel to the one left behind.

[Vasiliki D.]

Can someone give me sound Orthodox reasons to (be ok with) divorce and to marry (twice) ...

[Effie Ganatsios]

Has anyone ever experienced the reality of what it is like to be an abused wife? One who is terrified of the person she lives with and is controlled by. One who is advised by her psychiatrist to leave the relationship before she is killed but is advised by her priest to "endure" and pray that "things get better".

A close family relative is in this situation and I know, from personal experience the tragedy the whole family is going through.

One of the posters (forgive me but I don't remember which message I read this in) tells us that personal experience should not be used as a global rule - I'm paraphrasing here but hope I am accurate in what I am quoting.

No-one claims this but I believe that each instance of family abuse, whether it involves brutality, addictions, etc. needs to be judged on its own.

Did our Lord Jesus not protect the innocent, did He not always help those in need. He stopped men from murdering a woman who had sinned. It's strange that these same men did not also stone the man involved, isn't it?

He did not say - endure the stoning and pray that everything will be OK.

Perhaps it is understandable to expect priests to advise women in such situations to endure and pray, although they are not taking her suffering into consideration. At the same time, some consideration should be given to the children who are forced to watch their mother being abused by their father, and who are also victims of this violence, if not physically then emotionally.

When people marry they do so in good faith and with the expectation that they will progress together in faith and with love of God.

Unfortunately, people do not reveal their true characters before marriage, or circumstances change and their characters change with them.

[Effie Ganatsios]

""What God has joined, let not man separate."
(Mt. 19:6)

The Orthodox Church firmly believes in the sanctity of the marriage bond. St. Paul refers to marriage as a "great mystery", likening the relationship of husband and wife to that of Christ and the Church. Our Lord defended the sanctity of marriage, justifying divorce only on the grounds of unchastity. For this reason the Church is deeply concerned about each marriage and seeks to reconcile differences arising between husband and wife in the normal course of life.

The Church also realistically recognizes that some marriages may become completely unworkable, causing more damage than good, and thus does allow for divorce. Whenever serious difficulties arise threatening the dissolution of the marriage, the troubled couple should seek help from the Church first by contacting the priest rather than come to the Church when things are so bad that nothing can be done. Only when the marriage is seen by the Church to be completely unsalvageable is consideration given to divorce. Although a civil decree of divorce legally dissolves a marriage in the eyes of the civil authorities, it does not dissolve a marriage in the eyes of the Church if the marriage was blessed in the Orthodox Church. The Church is under no obligation to grant a divorce just because a civil court granted a civil divorce. "

"In accordance with Church Canon Law, an Ecclesiastical Divorce is granted only under certain circumstances In accordance with the 21 November 1973 encyclical of His Eminence, Archbishop Iakovos, a divorce is given and considered valid, when a marriage is entered into by force, blackmail or false reasons.

- one or both parties is guilty of adultery.
- one party is proven to be mad, insane or suffers from a social disease which was not disclosed to the spouse prior to the marriage.
- one party has conspired against the life of the spouse.
- one party is imprisoned for more than seven years.
- one party abandons the other for more than three years without approval.
- one partner should be absent from home without the other's approval, except in in stances when the latter is assured that such absence is due to psycho-neurotic illness.
- one partner forces the other to engage in illicit affairs with others.
- one partner does not fulfill the responsibilities of marriage, or when it is medically proven that one party is physically impotent or as the result of a social venereal disease.
- one partner is an addict, thereby creating undue economic hardship.

The above is from http://www.saintdemetrios.com/OurFaith/Divorce.dsp


I do not see from the above list that cruelty is a reason for divorce. Why not?


Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Can someone give me sound Orthodox reasons to (be ok with) divorce and to marry (twice) ...

Vasiliki, here in Greece the Orthodox pious are permitted to marry 3 times in the Church.

You can have as many civil marriages as you desire. Civil marriages are the only marriages recognized by the government but most people also want their marriage to be sanctified by the Church.

It is also a fact that Church divorces are given quite easily to "important" people. Whereas my relative is advised to endure and to pray.

Effie

[Vasiliki D.]

Has anyone ever experienced the reality of what it is like to be an abused wife?
When people marry they do so in good faith and with the expectation that they will progress together in faith and with love of God.
Unfortunately, people do not reveal their true characters before marriage, or circumstances change and their characters change with them.

I have but not from physical violence (more a mental and emotional mind game type of violence) but I hear many cases where women (and even cases of men) are violently beaten by their partners ... this is what I am trying to understand on a Patristic level about divorce and marriage.

There are many Saints in our church who were in such marriages and infact are sainted for this exact reason - that they patiently endured and in the end from their example of love their partners repented of everything they had ever done to them and also came to be saved.

The other thing that attracts me to these biographies is the comparison to other types of Saints who endure the violent beatings of the actual demons ..and I cross compare these example and ask myself ...if an ascetic in the wilderness patiently endures the beatings of the demons can a "strict" Orthodox view a violent home situation as a joyfull way to martyr for God.

Then I consider our present reality and it is not so easy anymore to have that black and white outlook ...shades of grey are involved ..

I think, if we were to put the situation of violence into a "Saint Bio" you could see the happy outcome already. The children grow up in a bad environment - they see one bad parent and they see one good parent who patiently endures. The other changes they all become Saints because of the good example and patience of one person - but that doesnt work in our society today.

Eiconomia, right? That is comforting but how when did it come into play? When does the Orthodox person cross the boundary between losing the opportunity for patience and enough is enough? It is complex because society is no longer a simple society ...

With my separation I looked up Saint Basil for a paragraph that would quench my thirst to [not feel guilty that my spouse just gave up the marriage in 48hours] that my marriage vows were broken so soon .. I really could find nothing that made me feel "safe" other than my Spiritual Father ...

Is their something more that one can read that is written perhaps from more contemporary Saints about divorce and marriage?

Jesus in the Bible says ... Death and adultery - is adultery perhaps a badly translated word or can adultery be something beyond just the one form we know it to be (sexual adultery)?

[Herman Blaydoe]

I do not see from the above list that cruelty is a reason for divorce. Why not?

Probably because it is pretty much covered more specifically by most of the other items already listed. "Cruelty" is rather vague charge. What is mercy to the wolf is cruelty to the sheep. Cruelty, I suspect, is associated with many of the circumstances listed. "Cruelty" can be corrected if the underlying spiritual illness is treated, without necessitating a divorce. I think the Church feels the listed items are much more difficult to deal with.


one or both parties is guilty of adultery. can include cruelty
one party is proven to be mad, insane or suffers from a social disease which was not disclosed to the spouse prior to the marriage. often causes cruelty
one party has conspired against the life of the spouse. OK this one is pretty obvious
one party is imprisoned for more than seven years. may or may not involve cruelty, but forced loneliness/separation can be a form of cruelty yes?
one party abandons the other for more than three years without approval. see above
one partner should be absent from home without the other's approval, except in in stances when the latter is assured that such absence is due to psycho-neurotic illness. rather interesting wording, but I would assume this is also related to the above
one partner forces the other to engage in illicit affairs with others. again, pretty obvious
one partner does not fulfill the responsibilities of marriage, or when it is medically proven that one party is physically impotent or as the result of a social venereal disease. can be considered a form of cruelty, yes?
one partner is an addict, thereby creating undue economic hardship. and often cruelty...


Other Orthodox churches have different lists, different criteria, as has been best discerned by the spiritual leadership. The common emphasis I detect however is that everything should be done to preserve a marriage if the underlying spiritual issues can be dealt with. If not, then the believing spouse should not carry so great a burden that their spirit is crushed, and allowances must be made for the good of the salvation of at least one, if not both spouses. Physical health is important too but remember that the Holy Apostle Paul tells us to be more worried about the one who can destroy the spirit than the one who can harm the body. This should not be understood as a justification for abuse or a reason to stay in an abusive situation, since where there is abuse, one of the items on the above list is probably also present and nobody should be told that they must stay in an abusive situation, especially by someone not dealing with that situation themselves.

Each situation must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis I should think. That is why we have bishops.

Herman the Pooh

[Effie Ganatsios]

Probably because it is pretty much covered more specifically by most of the other items already listed. "Cruelty" is rather vague charge. What is mercy to the wolf is cruelty to the sheep. Cruelty, I suspect, is associated with many of the circumstances listed. "Cruelty" can be corrected if the underlying spiritual illness is treated, without necessitating a divorce. I think the Church feels the listed items are much more difficult to deal with.


one or both parties is guilty of adultery. can include cruelty
one party is proven to be mad, insane or suffers from a social disease which was not disclosed to the spouse prior to the marriage. often causes cruelty
one party has conspired against the life of the spouse. OK this one is pretty obvious
one party is imprisoned for more than seven years. may or may not involve cruelty, but forced loneliness/separation can be a form of cruelty yes?
one party abandons the other for more than three years without approval. see above
one partner should be absent from home without the other's approval, except in in stances when the latter is assured that such absence is due to psycho-neurotic illness. rather interesting wording, but I would assume this is also related to the above
one partner forces the other to engage in illicit affairs with others. again, pretty obvious
one partner does not fulfill the responsibilities of marriage, or when it is medically proven that one party is physically impotent or as the result of a social venereal disease. can be considered a form of cruelty, yes?
one partner is an addict, thereby creating undue economic hardship. and often cruelty...


Other Orthodox churches have different lists, different criteria, as has been best discerned by the spiritual leadership. The common emphasis I detect however is that everything should be done to preserve a marriage if the underlying spiritual issues can be dealt with. If not, then the believing spouse should not carry so great a burden that their spirit is crushed, and allowances must be made for the good of the salvation of at least one, if not both spouses. Physical health is important too but remember that the Holy Apostle Paul tells us to be more worried about the one who can destroy the spirit than the one who can harm the body. This should not be understood as a justification for abuse or a reason to stay in an abusive situation, since where there is abuse, one of the items on the above list is probably also present and nobody should be told that they must stay in an abusive situation, especially by someone not dealing with that situation themselves.

Each situation must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis I should think. That is why we have bishops.

Herman the Pooh

Herman perhaps I should just have said wife beating.

A man hitting a woman who is about half his size until she is black and blue. I saw this woman the morning after her husband "played" with her. She had a tremendous bump on her forehead and her eye on one side was dark. She tried to hide this with her hairstyle but I saw and asked what had happened. Her crime? He came home from work, and she started preparing his dinner. He came up to her while she was at the stove and gave her a tremendous punch in the face without saying a word.

I'm sorry but can we believe that Our Lord Jesus would have condoned such behaviour. What does it mean when someone repents in the last hours of his life after a lifetime of abusing a person under his control. This sounds so easy to me. All our mercy is given to the criminal and not to the victim, as long as he is sorry for what he has done.

I agree with all that you say. It must be difficult to believe in God when your every moment in your own home, which should be a sanctuary, is filled with terror.

The amazing thing is that this woman is someone who believes absolutely in the goodness of God and who is also very active in our group of Christian women. In fact, she was the one who urged me to join. She doesn't come every week though - I suppose for obvious reasons. My husband and his brother have both talked to this man in an attempt to find out why he does what he does. He is also an alcoholic but one who doesn't believe that he is. He was OK for a couple of weeks after this talk and then the old routine started again.

His wife prays for him, just as we all do, but I hope he comes to his senses before he kills her..................

Effie