Women and head coverings

[Johanna]

Dear All,

As noted from another thread, it was said, “Your mother is absolutely right. It is in the Canons or Laws of the Church, and just as a woman would not approach Communion with her head uncovered, so also should she not show disregard for the other laws and customs of the Church.” Could someone explain about women and head coverings and why this is not practiced by all women in Orthodox churches? I personally do not wear a head covering, but I don’t know much about it.

I appreciate any comments on this.

Yours in Christ,

Johanna

[A Desert Aspirant]

Johanna, All I know is when going to the monastery we must wear scarves and long sleeves. No problem with me. The requirement promotes a refreshing modesty that has long vanished from popular society. (Though the novelty wears off after awhile, and some have grumbled a bit.)

[Herman Blaydoe]

Could someone explain about women and head coverings and why this is not practiced by all women in Orthodox churches? I personally do not wear a head covering, but I don’t know much about it.

Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 11:9-11

If you remember back to the early '50s and '60s, pictures of women going to church always included a head covering of some kind, even in Protestant churches, primarily on authority of the above passage. In most places, the bridal veil is all that remains, a cultural artifact of Tradition. Since the '60s, obedience of any kind has been distrusted, particularly those which symbolize subservience. These days, many priests and even some bishops are afraid of their parishioners. If they demand "obedience" they fear many will simply run into the open arms of "less demanding" churches. Some Orthodox churches have simply discarded "inconvenient" traditions to the detriment of the Faithful, IMO. OTOH, I have been to several ROCOR churches where scarves are kept by the door to quickly hand to any woman entering the Church who "forgot" her head covering...

[A Desert Aspirant]

H, I Corin. 11:14 says, "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long, it is a disgrace to him?" Yet many Orthodox men don't cut their hair. That is just below a question about women and unveiled heads. One scripture is taken literally and another not. Why?

[Herman Blaydoe]

And yet, in ancient Jewish practice:

"All the days of the vow of his separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the LORD, he shall be holy. Then he shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow."
Numbers 6:5

Because of this ancient practice, monastics and ROCOR priests agree to never cut their hair as a symbol of their vow of service to the Lord.

ALL Holy Scripture is to be taken "literally" but it must also be understood in context. Thanks be to God that it is not required for us to pick and choose, but we have the Holy Spirit to guide us to understanding through the teaching of the Holy Church.

[Herman Blaydoe]

If a woman does not cover her head, does she sin? To put it another way, if my doctor says I should exercise more and I don't, do I sin?

If we do not follow the teachings of the Church, we miss out on receiving the benefits. If I do not exercise, I run the risk of illness, heart problems, even depression. If I do not exercise spiritually (isn't that what asceticism is?) I run the risk of spiritual illness (falling into sin), "heart problems" even depression. Failing to follow the doctor's prescription is not the sin, but it may well result in sin eventually, yes? Or so it seems to this simple mind.

Herman the simple

PS, every Tradition is an opportunity to receive a blessing. Every tradition I discard, is an opportunity lost.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Herman,I've seen the OT teaching on the razor. Other faiths' renunciates don't cut their hair either. Men in Christ's day are usually depicted with long hair. So why did St. Paul preach against men having long hair? Any idea what length his hair was? Must go walk now. So long.

[Johanna]

As quoted above:


“Some Orthodox churches have simply discarded "inconvenient" traditions to the detriment of the Faithful, IMO.”

“If a woman does not cover her head, does she sin? To put it another way, if my doctor says I should exercise more and I don't, do I sin?

If we do not follow the teachings of the Church, we miss out on receiving the benefits.”

So are you saying that if a woman does not cover her head it is to her detriment and she is missing out on the benefits? Benefits of obedience? Submission? Do you really think a woman approaching the chalice with her head uncovered is walking in disobedience to the church’s instructions? I am asking simply because I need to know. It is not my intent to walk in disobedience and I am asking humbly with a spirit of desire to know the truth about this matter.

Yours in Christ,

Johanna

[Herman Blaydoe]

The following is quoted from:

Concerning the Tradition of Long Hair and Beards (http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/pages/Orthodox_Life/longhair.htm)

In our passage noted previously, Both not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? (I Cor. 11:14) Saint Paul uses the Greek word for "hair." This particular word for hair designates hair as an a ornament (the notion of length being only secondary and suggested), differing from the anatomical or physical term for hair. Saint Paul's selection of words emphasizes his criticism of laymen wearing their hair in a stylized fashion, which was contrary to pious Jewish and Christian love of modesty. We note the same approach to hair as that of Saint Paul in the 96th canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council where it states: "Those therefore who adorn and arrange their hair to the detriment of those who see them, that is by cunningly devised intertwinings, and by this means put a bait in the way of unstable souls."

[James]

Don't take this as authoritative, but my recollection is that St. Paul was referring to a way of styling the hair. Apparently, then (as now) many men would fix their hair in particular ways, so as to enhance its attractiveness. Dimly, I seem to recall that the fashion may have been somewhat effeminate. In any event, that is how I have always understood the reference.

In Christ,

James

[James]

Right after I posted my note, I received Herman's better response. Change my post to read:

"What he said."

In Christ,

James

[Herman Blaydoe]

So are you saying that if a woman does not cover her head it is to her detriment and she is missing out on the benefits? Benefits of obedience? Submission? Do you really think a woman approaching the chalice with her head uncovered is walking in disobedience to the church’s instructions? I am asking simply because I need to know. It is not my intent to walk in disobedience and I am asking humbly with a spirit of desire to know the truth about this matter.

The custom (tradition) of women covering their heads has been an unquestioned part of Orthodox, indeed, Christian worship in general, up until only recently (the '60s being "recent" in Orthodox reckoning). Consult your local priest for guidance, abiding by his advice constitutes "obedience" regardless of what I post(even if modern society seems to consider "obedience" as a four-letter word, we are no longer "of this world"). But least I voice my own opinion contrary to the teachings of the Church, here is a trusted Orthodox source:

On the Covering of Heads (http://www.stjohndc.org/what/9408c.htm)

[A Desert Aspirant]

The Beatitudes say nothing about specific appearance or dress code necessary for seekers of God. Only inner qualities are emphasized: purity of heart, thirst for holiness, meekness with modesty implicit etc., are listed as prerequisites for this. But churches do maintain OT traditions.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Our Lord emphasized different things at different times. He also said:

"But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone [emphasis added].
Luke 11:42

He also said:
He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much.
Luke 16:10

In the Beatitudes, He said "Blessed are the meek"

From Dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com):
Meek
1. Showing patience and humility; gentle.
2. Easily imposed on; submissive.

When a woman walks into Church with head uncovered, contrary to 2000 years of witness, is she being meek? Seems like an opportunity for a blessing missed to this simple mind.

Herman the simple

[Richard Leigh]

A Word (or more) About Heads, Hair, and Glory:

What St. Paul tells us about head coverings in his epistle to the Corinthians is to teach about Glory (the DOX in Orthodox). First, "Glory" shines from the head of a person, male or female, Second, the rays of shining are represnted by the strands of hair (compare Sampson = Sun-Man). But of course for St. Paul and for us, all Glory is from God, thus, a man will shear his head in a socially acceptible (=natural) manner, while a woman ought not, since long hair on women is socially acceptible (and, the glory of her head is her husbands after all, as he is her "head", but wait, this will all point to Christ and His church). Well, but the glory is to be minimized because, as we said, all Glory is really from God, and if it is socially unacceptible for a woman to shear her head, it is acceptible to cover it. So, St. Paul says, let's do that. That way, no outsider will think our women are harlots, or our men effeminate, and all glory is accorded God in heaven, and we the Church are the bride of our Glorious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
(Whose own "head" is God His [and through Him our] Father)!

Richard

[Elizabeth]

My dear Richard in Christ,

Thank you for your careful explanation in post 221. I never fully understood that passage, because the feminists explained it very differently. Thanks again.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Elizabeth Riggs]

You might also check out the Old Rite practices which retain the traditions more precisely than most Parishes do today:

http://www.churchofthenativity.net/practice.html

In Christ,
Elizabeth, the sinner
and Perennial Student

[Photini]

Just something personal...my covered head helps me to remember to bow my head, and watch over my roaming eyes.
-photini

[A Desert Aspirant]

Herman, While I will wear a scarf out of obedience to the rules at a monastery, a scarf is not what makes a person meek. Meekness is more of an inner quality. A scarf covers the hair but not the heart. A person can be wearing a scarf but still be vain or arrogant.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Johanna,

There are so many aspects of our Orthodox faith, that if put to scrutiny, might not make sense from the worldly standpoint. Our Orthodox Faith is a Mystery, and as faithful sons and daughters of the Church, we are often called upon to accept in love, humility, and obedience that which the Church and those who God has put overs tells us is the right thing to do. We do not have the freedom to act upon our own opinions, for our being part of Christ's Church involves being together with one heart and one mind. Sad to say, in these last days, far too many people, even Hierarchs have gone on paths that could become dangerous. But for us, it is always to our advantage spiritually to adhere to even small good practices as best we can.

There have been some practices which have arisen over the years, and it is hard to pinpoint from whence they came. For instance, while serving at my first parish some twenty years ago, the local bishop issuded an ukase recquiring women to wear head coverings during Divine services, and not to wear lipstick if they planned on receiving communion at liturgy. After I had read the ukase ( directive), one of my prominent parishioners, a very good and active woman, approached me and said, "Father, I was taught that only a virgin covers her head during services, but a married woman only covers her head when she is about to go up to receive communion. That is what I learned, and that is what I am going to do!" I quietly said to her, "M., you are free to do as you wish, but our bishop, a successor of the Apostles has issued an official ukas on this matter. I obeyed him and read the ukase. If you wish to be disobedient to your bishop, what can I say? However, don't you think that if you follow the ukase, you will please God and the Holy Theotokos, the highest example of obedience and modesty?" She said nothing at the time, but a few weeks later, she appeared with a head covering, and so did the other women of the parish. Later, she came up and said, "You know Father, ever since I began to cover my head, I feel like I am in my own little "church" in my head-that is, I find that besides just singing as I do in the choir, I spend more time praying as well." Dear Johanna, it is never to our benefit to look at these situations with the eyes of the world, but with spiritual eyes, and then it will be given us to see.

There is a story that I read just a few years ago from a little pamphlet that I found in the back of monastic church about a very devout Russian woman in Australia who could not always attend a Russian Orthodox church, but more often attended another Orthodox church at which most of the women never covered their heads. She was known for her full and beautiful hair, but she always kept it covered. She noticed this, and not judging anyone, she made a promise to the Most Pure Theotokos that she would always keep her head covered and dress modestly whenever she attended Divine Services. After some time, it was determined that she had a dangerous form of cancer and would have to undergo chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Like anyone, she was very frightened, and turned to the Mother of God with intense prayer and tears. Once while she was praying before her icon of the Pure Virgin, she heard a sweet and comforting voice, which said to her, "My dear child, because you have always shown me love and respect, my Divine Son has granted you healing, but only after a time. Because you have honored me by always keeping your head covered, you will not lose one strand of your hair." And all came true; to cleanse her soul, God permitted her to suffer for a time, but despite intensive therapy, her hair remained intact.

Dear Johanna, when we allow ourselves to be concerned about what is "fair," or if such and such is a "sin" if we do not do it, we miss out on the opportunity To please God-not by blind submission or resentful obedience, but through love and humility. All too often we ask, "Why do I have to do that!" Better to do every little thing we can to please God.

Only in a few rare icons is the Mother of God ever depicted with her hair showing. In the nineteenth century, a woman's hair was one of her great beauties, yet it was usually pulled into a bun or a high hair-do, and only the woman's husband beheld the loveliness of her hair. My answer might not satisy you, but I did want to share my thoughts with you. My own mother, who was an amazingly beautiful woman, always wore a Spanish lace mantilla when she went to church, and during Lent, she wore a black one which covered half of her face. She was wonderfully feminine, but she was always proper and modest. When she died at the age of ninety, she hand not once in her life worn shorts , short pants or any revealing type of clothing. My mother always expected all of us to also dress modestly, and she herself gave as an example the Most Pure Virgin, for whom she had great love.

Respectfully in Christ,
hieromonk Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Photini,

Your covered head keeps my eye from roaming as well!

Richard

[Donald Wescott]

Fr. A,
Father Bless!

Thanks for your insightful input into what for many today has become a somewhat vexing subject.

Thanks also to Herman for some helpful links, it was after reading a similar explanation of Russian Monastic practice that after prayer and with the blessing of my parish priest have started to let my own hair grow, not to be cut again. Also, wanted to let me know that you crack me up! Your little disclaimers are a scream, perhaps comedy is in your blood! In all seriousness, I sincerely appreciate your insight.

This has been a wonderful thread which I intend to pass along to some of my friends and fellow parishoners.

Finally, I must say that I find myself in complete agreement with RL with regard to another benefit of the headcovering. Many people have a hard time believing me when I tell them that the first thing I am inclined to notice about a woman is her hair.

Under His Mercy
Donald Eusebios

[Fr Averky]

Dear Eusebios,

Many, many years ago, a group of Protestant ministers came for a tour of our monastery. As they were being shown around, one of them said to the monk assigned to be their guide, "Why do you have long hair and a beard?" the monk answered, "Because those men who dedicated themselves to God did not cut their hair or shave their beards. Jesus Christ was one of those men, and they were called Nazarites. Why do you shave, and why is your hair so short?" There were no more questions along that line. One time when I was in a crowded elevator, when it was time to get off at my floor, I said "excuse me sir" to the tall man standing right in front of me. When he turned around, "he" was a woman in probably her early sixties. She was wearing a short jacket and jeans and had her hair cut very short. Happy to say, she did not look offended, and all I could do was to smile, and mumble "excuse me" again as I sidled out.

As to laymen having long hair and beards, it is true that it is an ancient Christian practice, and is mentioned in the canons.. I however, have no say in how people look. I am always amazed at how people have lost repect for godly matters. A few Summers ago, a woman in probably her late thirties and a teen age girl drove into the parking lot. When they got out of their car, it was seen that they were both wearing shorts. We have two signs saying that we do not permit persons wearing shorts beyond the parking lot. They read the sign, and then walked right up to the open door of the church. A young monk (who related all of this to me) seeing them, walked up and very kindly told them that he was sorry, but they were limited to the parking lot. Upon hearing this, the older woman began to mock and insult the young Father, asking him why he was "prancing around in a dress," and pointed at him to the younger woman and said ,"look, he's in drag!" They both laughed, and then very angrily departed. It brought to mind the prophecy of St. Nilus of the Holy Mountain who said that such unbecoming things wouold come to pass. How very sad.

Fr. A.

[Johanna]

Dear All,

Thank you so much for your helpful responses to my question about women and head coverings. To all of you, your wise words and helpful links were quite informative. Up to this point, I just have not known the Church’s teaching about this tradition. And as Fr. Averky stated, “…as faithful sons and daughters of the Church, we are often called upon to accept in love, humility, and obedience that which the Church and those who God has put overs tells us is the right thing to do. We do not have the freedom to act upon our own opinions, for our being part of Christ's Church involves being together with one heart and one mind.” There’s something quite liberating to me as I am learning to submit to the authority of the Church’s teaching, not needing to understand all the why’s and how comes of the issue, but submissively obeying. Obedience to the Church and those placed in authority over me is something I am growing into, but this obedience seems to fill my heart with a wonderful peace that is not of this world. So, as far as the head covering issue is concerned…sounds like a no brainer to me…the teachings of the Church appear quite clear on this issue, so I believe I will speak with my parish priest and then walk in obedience with my head covered as I humbly attend the Divine Services. Again, thank you for all your input.

Yours in Christ,

Johanna

[Herman Blaydoe]

Herman, While I will wear a scarf out of obedience to the rules at a monastery, a scarf is not what makes a person meek. Meekness is more of an inner quality. A scarf covers the hair but not the heart. A person can be wearing a scarf but still be vain or arrogant.

Indeed, it is not what is on (or not on) our heads, but what is in our hearts that matters. That being said, Orthodoxy recognizes that we are holistic beings: what is inside affects the outside and that which is outside can affect what is inside. Bowing, crossing ourselves, lighting candles, all these things are condusive to promoting an atmosphere that in turn helps the mind attune to spiritual things. Then again, standing in church makes one a Christian as much as standing in a garage makes one a car...

But as I said earlier, each tradition--and the covering of a woman's head is an ancient and honored (until recently in the US) tradition--is an opportunity to receive a blessing. Wearing a scarf is simple obedience, which is a sign of meekness, it is an opportunity to PRACTICE meekness. Practice makes PERFECT. And does not the Holy Apostle Paul tell us: "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is Perfect"...?

Just a simple thought from a simple mind
Herman the simple

[A Desert Aspirant]

Some aspects of not cutting the hair are universal. Many East Indian yogis don't cut their hair either. It eventually forms into long, matted tendrils, called a "jutta." If the jutta falls off, their ashrams preserve it. They believe they are like relics.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Herman, I've stated twice that I have no problem with having to wear a scarf when required by a religious environment. And yes, Jesus did tell us "Be ye perfect...." Perfection is a matter of heart and intellect. A woman without a scarf on her head can still be very meek.

[A Desert Aspirant]

Herman,I've called an Orthodox parish & asked the priest about dress codes, and was told scarves are not required. Here in Phoenix, where it is over 100 degrees much of the time, you guys would have a problem. Better go directly to the monastery with blinders on if you visit!

[A Desert Aspirant]

Fr. A, Once when leaving a monastery, two women outside the gate asked if it bothered me to have to wear a scarf all day. I said "No." They also complained about having to wear long sleeves & socks. "Christ wore sandals barefoot," they protested. How would you have answered?

[Herman Blaydoe]

Herman,I've called an Orthodox parish & asked the priest about dress codes, and was told scarves are not required.

As I stated earlier, many priests/bishops have not enforced the tradition, primarily because resistance in places has been anything BUT meek, and sometimes they are afraid of their parishioners. At any rate an opportunity for a blessing has been lost.


Here in Phoenix, where it is over 100 degrees much of the time, you guys would have a problem.

BTW, I wore a headscarf in Saudi Arabia (guthra) when it was 130 degrees. It was not a problem. In fact, if you go out into the desert without a headcovering you are going to die.

Here is a simple thought. Some Orthodox Churches require women to have a headcovering (MOST non-US Orthodox churches do). If you are going to visit an Orthodox church, rather than have to call ahead, just remember that modesty and a headcovering are NEVER inappropriate.


A woman without a scarf on her head can still be very meek.

Perhaps, but it may be easier WITH a scarf than without?

Your results may vary. Advice from your local priest should always take precedence over some simple schmuck on an internet list.

Herman the simple

[Herman Blaydoe]

They also complained about having to wear long sleeves & socks. "Christ wore sandals barefoot," they protested. How would you have answered?

Easily and quickly: Had socks and shoes been appropriate to the time of His incarnation, He would have worn them. I am sure that He wore what was proper and respectful for the times when He visited the Temple and the synagogues. Should we do any less?

[A Desert Aspirant]

Matthew, Are you inserting those tiny notes (in the small fonts) in Herman's post, or is that Herman being humble?

[Herman Blaydoe]

The words "humble" and "Herman" should never be used in the same sentence unless you are discussing my name saint, Herman of Alaska.

Herman the humble
and darned proud of it!

[A Desert Aspirant]

Herman, Actually, many women fuss much over how their their scarves look -- do the ends hang attractively? Does it look better wrapped around the back of the neck? Does it hang down the back fashionably? "Tied simply it makes me look so frumpy!" Etc.. Vanity is not so easily covered.

[A Desert Aspirant]

H -- "Herman the humble" You just used "Herman" and "Humble" in the same sentence. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif Laughing. Have a good day.
A Desert Aspirant
Paradoxically Frumpy yet Vain

[Herman Blaydoe]

Vanity is not so easily covered.

It is not my place to judge, thanks be to God! All I am doing is providing a simple answer to a simple question, and hopefully one that is in accordance with the teaching of the Holy Church, regardless of my own opinion on the matter.

all previously posted disclaimers apply. Not intended for use by children age 36 months or younger. Click here (http://www.rinkworks.com/said/warnings.shtml) for further disclaimers.

Herman the simple

[Johanna]

Desert Aspirant, I am assuming that you are an Orthodox Christian, but am uncertain if you ever made clear whether you are or not. In my limited experience as an Orthodox Christian, I have found that really one does not pick and choose which customs and traditions of the church one desires to abide by. Of course, we do have a free will and can choose to go our own way and be disobedient to the instruction given us. We may not like or understand the requirements placed upon us as Orthodox Christians, but I would think that does not exempt us from them. For me as a very young (in the faith) Orthodox woman, I have found that the Church is worthy of my trust and I can rest in Her authority. I can look for all sorts of excuses to turn away and do my own thing and argue about why this or why that, but God through the Church and my priest, bishop, etc. has a place of authority over me. It’s my choice whether I submit or rebel. Lots of the requirements such as fasting, standing during services, daily prayers, prostrations, attending many, many services throughout the year are a few things that may not cater to my physical comfort or my personal wants but I trust that they are for my good and to AID in my salvation. I also live in a very hot environment and now I must embrace wearing a head covering. Physically, this will not be comfortable, but I must trust the Church in Her wisdom that my being submissive and obedient to this custom will aid in my salvation. From my own experience, it seems that self-will and self-centeredness (which always hinders my spiritual growth) most often are at the root of the rebellious times in my life when I don’t want to submit to the authority which God has so beautifully placed in my life. I am slowly learning to submit to this authority which no doubt plays a huge role in the salvation of my soul. I have much to learn about the customs and practices of the True Faith, so if I am incorrect on anything I just stated, I hope someone more mature in the Faith will correct me.

Yours in Christ,
Johanna

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Johanna,

Concerning covering your head, it is not required that you wear black from head to toe like a Muslim woman, nor do you have to wear a heavy woolen Babushka. In my part of the country, where winters are very cold, such a thing is even desirable. As someone mentioned in this thread, we also keep a supply of very light weight scarves to hand out to women who are in need of a head covering.

Several years ago, I was walking in the parking lot, and a very pleasant couple came over and respectfully asked about our monastery. The husband was German, and so wanted to see the church, but he was wearing shorts. I thought a minute, told them to wait, and came back with a long rain coat that someone had forgotten. The man was not very tall, so the coat nearly reached his ankles,. Theyuwere so grateful to be able to enter, and I still hear from them at Christmas time.

What is important Johanna, is that we not try to justify our actions by coming up with any number of arguements as to why we should do or not not do something. For Orthodox Christians the same spiritual principles apply, whether one is single, married, a member of the clergy, or the monastic life. There is purity in monasticism, but it abides in marriage as well, monastics need to be obedient, but children must obey thier parents, people must obey their bosses at work, priests must obey their bishops and so on. Not only monks and nuns are called upon to fast, but laypeople as well. All of this is done in obedience out of love.

when a monk is tonsured, as he is congratulated, the person greeting hims asks him, "Father, what is your holy name?" When the new monk replies, the response to him is "May you please God and your spiritual Father!" I have entrusted my soul and my life to my spiritual Father, and he has spoon fed with me with Grace, firmness, love, concern, wisdom, kindness and his holy prayers. He is an icon of the monastic life to me, for burdened with many responsibilities and sorrows, he finds time to serve three moleibens a day, answer correspondence, take many phone calls, and advise the many who call upon him all over the country. When he asks me to do something, I see it as coming from Christ himself, and I always try to say to him, "I will obey you, Father," and I try to fulfill what he has given me to do, for I know he always has my salvation in mind. In the past, when he was not my spiritual father, and I was more on my own, there was always the chance of making the wrong decision, or saying or doing the wrong thing. Now, I have the comfort and the safety to know that I am in my spiritual father's care and am under his protection, for in holy obedience Johanna, there is complete freedom. Cover your head, but do so in such a manner that it will not be a burden, or an "obligation," but something that you are doing out of love for our Saviour and His Church. Wear something which will be comfortable for you in your warm climate

. My sister lived for five years in Saudi Arabia, and had to be covered when she went out in public, but she said she wore very light cotton, and it was not so bad. I was so touched when she complained about the restrictions put on her as a foreign non-Muslim women, only to conclude by saying, "If I lived in a country where I had to walk backwards in order to be near my husband, I would gladly do it." Her kind and gentle husband died about a week ago; they were married for fifty two years. My sister, who is a devout Roman Catholic, clearly understood that in order to gain some good things, there are times when we have to be willing to give up our comfort and our will and our opinion. I would dare to say that ginig up one'w will for the sake of salvation is a good to be gained indeed.

The sooner that we come to realize that we have no "control" over anything at all, and that everything, everything, is in the hands and at the will of God, the sooner we will find peace of soul and mind. Pity the foolish and vain of this world who speak of "empowerment."
what power could they possibly hold? To God be the power and the glory.

With love in our Saviour

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Johanna,

Just a little addendum.
Just think what would have happened to us if the Mother of God would have said to the Angel Gabriel that she refused his divine message, because she had "power" over her own destiny and her own body? But in humility and obedience, she said "Yes," and that simple act was a "Yes" for the salvation of all mankind. With no hesitation, but in fear and awe of the obedience that been given to her, she said, "Behold the handmaid of the the Lord. Be it done unto me according to thy word." May our Saviour and His most Pure Mother bless you for your obedience, and may it lead to your salvation.

Joyfully in Christ,

Father A.

[M. Rallis]

Not being a woman myself, I do not enjoy the blessing of wearing a head-covering in church. Today, however, I did enjoy the blessing of starting the fast leading up to our Church’s celebration of the Dormition of the all holy Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, and prayed that God will strengthen me to keep the fast. At the psaltiri, or chanter’s stand, at our church, the chanters enjoy the blessing of wearing a plain, black rasso, or cassock, as they help with the services. They carry their folded rasso to the priest to have him give his blessing before they put it on, and take their position at the psaltiri. These little Orthodox things that we do, to me, are instances of living “liturgically”, and there are many, many more examples that we all could mention. But they are blessings to be experienced and enjoyed! To bend our will, to do God-pleasing things, to be followers of our Holy Orthodox Church, and her ways, is truly a gift, a taste of heaven, a cause of joy in the here and now!

“...the quiet celebration of the Liturgy gives guidance for a correct Orthodox attitude and provides an air of devout contrition. Joy does not laugh aloud and wound those who are sorrowful, nor does pain cast gloom and disillusionment over the weak. There reigns everywhere the devout contrition which secretly and inexhaustibly comforts everyone, making them joyful and uniting them as brothers. Human emotionalism is one thing and the devout contrition of the Liturgy quite another. The one causes man skin-deep irritation but torments him physically; the other nails him down but comforts him, revealing our God-like nature in the very depths of our existence. This is something that burdens you with a heavy obligation but at he same time gives you the wings of invincible hope.”

Archimandrite Vasileios, “Hymn of Entry”

[A Dezert Aspirant]

Joanna,"...it seems that self-will & self-centeredness (which always hinders my spiritual growth)...." These two factors - somewhat the same thing - do hinder spiritual growth. Wearing a scarf willingly if required by a monastery is the proper thing to do.

[V. Rev. Fr. David B. Sedor]

In my previous post, I neglected to point out that the Church did in fact retain many Jewish traditions, from the "Church of the Old Testament." For example, we refer to the altar area, behind the ikonostasis, as the "Holy of Holies," a direct reference to the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. We also begin our liturgical day at sunset, another carryover from Jewish worship.

The Priest David Sedor

PS -- By the way, I'm a priest serving in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh.

[Fr Averky]

,?=4,£?ther in Christ
Father David,

It is a joy to see you name again on Monachos! I am a little curious; I was looking at the clergy directory for the Carpatho-Russian diocese, and there is also a Fr. Sedor-any relation?
Please keep on posting, for it is important to have input from another priest who can offer a different perspective from time time, even though, as you said earlier, in many areas, you and I are in agreement. I would like to learn from you, dear Father, and I am sure so would all the members of this community of ours. God bless, and please remember me in your holy prayers.

Fraternally yours in Christ,

Fr. A.

[V. Rev. Fr. David B. Sedor]

Fr. Averky...

I grew up in the Carpatho-Russian Diocese and, canonically, I'm still under the omophorion of Metropolitan Nicholas of the CRs. I'm "on loan" to Metropolitan Maximos while I finish my doctorate; both are under the Patrarchate of Constantinople, which makes this a bit easier to work out. So, that may well have been me listed in that directory, or it may have been my uncle, my dad's brother, Fr. Stephen Sedor, who did some marvelous, ground-breaking work in the area of religious education, especially in the 50s and 60s. He's now happily retired in New Jersey.

[Xenia Rose]

Bless Fathers.

Fr. Averky and/or Fr. Sedor,

I attend a church with a great Priest who tells us it is not how little we do, what the minimum requirements are, but what we do sacrifically that gives us the most benefit.

Most of the women in my little parish wear headcoverings and this subject does come up in discussions, especially as we nearly always have a handful (or more) of catachumens and/or inquirers. (Praise God!)

I struggle with one area of concern, and that is with the idea that if I attend an Orthodox parish in which women do not wear headcoverings, that I am not to wear one. The words stated is that for me to wear one in that setting would be vainful or judgemental.

I am so confused by this that I have stopped visiting any other parish that I know does not have at least a couple women who wear headcoverings, for I have become extremely uncomfortable not wearing a scarf in church. (I do work at the church, cleaning in the Nave, etc, and I wear a scarf for that even.)

When did wearing a headcovering become wrong? How do I respond to people who speak against it? What do I do when I go to a church with no headcoverings on the women?

I wish to visit a local church in which headcoverings is not done for the feast day this week and I am hesistant. I am thinking of wearing my headcovering anyway.

This just doesn't seem important enough to bother my priest about. (He has laughed at me for asking silly questions and I have started to try to reduce them as he has to work and be our Priest and has lots of children... he is a busy man.)

[Xenia Rose]

Bless Fathers.

Fr. Averky and/or Fr. Sedor,

I attend a church with a great Priest who tells us it is not how little we do, what the minimum requirements are, but what we do sacrifically that gives us the most benefit.

Most of the women in my little parish wear headcoverings and this subject does come up in discussions, especially as we nearly always have a handful (or more) of catachumens and/or inquirers. (Praise God!)

I struggle with one area of concern, and that is with the idea that if I attend an Orthodox parish in which women do not wear headcoverings, that I am not to wear one. The words stated is that for me to wear one in that setting would be vainful or judgemental.

I am so confused by this that I have stopped visiting any other parish that I know does not have at least a couple women who wear headcoverings, for I have become extremely uncomfortable not wearing a scarf in church. (I do work at the church, cleaning in the Nave, etc, and I wear a scarf for that even.)

When did wearing a headcovering become wrong? How do I respond to people who speak against it? What do I do when I go to a church with no headcoverings on the women?

I wish to visit a local church in which headcoverings is not done for the feast day this week and I am hesistant. I am thinking of wearing my headcovering anyway.

This just doesn't seem important enough to bother my priest about. (He has laughed at me for asking silly questions and I have started to try to reduce them as he has to work and be our Priest and has lots of children... he is a busy man.)

[Byron Jack Gaist]

There are both women wearing headscarves and others with no headscarves at the church we visit here in Cyprus. Your priest may be very busy, but surely he laughed off a matter that ultimately seems to be of some importance to you. I am not a priest, or a particularly pious Orthodox, but I am not offended by the women who wear headscarves in church; in my opinion, a humble attitude is more clearly to be seen in the expressions of the face, the gait and body posture, the manner in which devotions are observed in practise before others. There are good and humble christians everywhere, headscarves or none.

A sinful brother
In Christ
Byron

[Father David Moser]

Xenia,

My dear elder brother Fr Averky has reposed (+6/04) in the time since this was posted (March of 2003) and so he will not be able to answer you. Perhaps I can answer for him.

It is never "sinful" to exhibit piety as long as you are not doing so in an attempt to "convict" others. If the covering of your head comes out of the prayer in your heart and your own desire to serve God by obedience to Him and the Holy Tradition of our Holy Mother Church, then by all means you should do so without regard to what others may think. Perhaps others will look down on you for being so "old fashioned" or "old world". Perhaps others will be inspired by your devotion and piety. Whatever their reaction, it is of no concern - you should continue to pray in the ways you know best (including the covering of your head).

Archpr. David Moser

[Joanna Bakas]

Dear All,

I wonder if there is a risk of being caught up in small matters and running a risk of making people feel unwelcome in church. I am not talking about frankly inappropriate clothing.

Joanna

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Brethren,

I feel that we should not judge a book by its cover. This is one of my favourite sayings. This saying can also apply to humans. The worse thing that can happen in a Church is to see that the priest has become distant from the majority of his flock and has created a clique of "devoted followers".

The purpose of the Church is to be all inclusive, not to be exclusive. Jesus was not selective of whom he would talk to or where he would be invited to eat. In the same way the minister of God should give equal attention to all and not exclude people from their company. This is an easy error to fall into. St Peter himself did this when he prefered to sit and eat with those who followed the Jewish Law. St Paul however argued with him about this very topic.

Nevertheless, I feel that the headcovering, as St Paul tells us, is a very important issue, but perhaps even more important is the whole spiritual wellbeing of a person. We should remember that the head covering is a Christian symbol of female humility and obedience to man and Christ.

The reason it is slowly being phased out is not because it is old fashioned, but because society has in fact become "liberated" and females have been forced to reject their gender related responsibilities.

When I say "liberated", this does not mean that women are given an equal opportunity since the Bible does teach equality and non-discrimination. When I say "liberated", I mean that females have been fooled by political propaganda into thinking that their natural instincts to get married and have children are sexist and are not necessary parts of life. Hence the governements gave created abortion clinics and contraceptive methods to deal with the after-affects of "feminist philosophy" and "liberationist" politics.

Governments were harsh in the past and did in many ways discriminated against women workers, but neither extreme can benefit society at all? It is only in following true Christian values that we may find the true and fair balance.

In Christ

Kosmas

[Matthew Panchisin]

Father Sedor mentioned a while back the retaining of Jewish traditions. That which is Holy is veiled, hence we see things like the veil over the Chalice, a Jewish curtain, and the veil in many Orthodox Churches in the middle of the royal doors. Outside of Jerusalem if my memory serves me correctly at the Church of Saint Gerasimos's I was taken by the absence of the veil between the royal doors and an actual sliding large wooden Icon of Christ the High Priest. The Saints that truly aspired to be Holy came to the conclusion that they had some shortcomings, hence they kept on trying. More to the point Saint John Chrysostom in his commentary on the Psalms (Psalm 4 I think) mentions the importance of proper attire when praying, the analogy he offers for our consideration is in short we would not go before an earthy king in an inappropriate way so we should present ourselves appropriately.

(Message edited by Matthew_P on 31 October, 2005)

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Matthew,

Thank you for the reference to St John's remarks. I wonder what people's thoughts are on the larger issues his remarks reveal: that the question of dress is one of propriety and reverence before God. The very manner in which this is framed makes the specific details of dress somewhat relative -- what is important is that the dress be appropriate, reverent, royal. The specific question of, say, covering of a woman's head, falls beneath that larger understanding -- and as such the question becomes, what if covering the head is no longer the sign of formality, reverence, royalty that once it was? Can the specific codes of dress not change as styles of reverence change with cultures?

It seems a reasonable question to ponder, given the vast variety of customs in this regard, even within the Orthodox communion.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Matthew S. wrote:


that the question of dress is one of propriety and reverence before God. The very manner in which this is framed makes the specific details of dress somewhat relative -- what is important is that the dress be appropriate, reverent, royal. The specific question of, say, covering of a woman's head, falls beneath that larger understanding -- and as such the question becomes, what if covering the head is no longer the sign of formality, reverence, royalty that once it was? Can the specific codes of dress not change as styles of reverence change with cultures?

This is why I think it is important to focus on our Church traditions or pious practices not as reflecting styles of reverence but rather as reflecting an outward expression of behaviour that deeply corresponds to our inner make-up as created in the image & likeness of God. Thus for example when we are talking about head coverings we would be talking not so much about what this piece of cloth represents but about its actual effect spiritually on the woman praying in church.

In a sense this relates to much deeper questions of what cultural practices really represent & whether there is perhaps a real difference between modern & pre-modern culture in this sense.

To cut to the chase and try to keep to the subject at hand- Orthodoxy & pious practices or traditions. I would say that our Orthodox traditions try to correspond to how we are created in the image & likeness- whereas modern fashions correspond to something far more subjective & arbitrary.

Certainly these practices in the Church can and have changed over the centuries. But according to Church practice this must still reflect what is inherently sacred & not arbitrary choice.

In a way we have quite a challenge since we are called as Orthodox Christians to respond freely to the situations God leads us to without letting the selfish values of this age totally influencing everything.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Patrick Walsh]

Blessings all,

Christ says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." St. Paul says, "The Church is the body of Christ." So we should keep the dicta and rubrics of the Church out of our love for Christ our Lord and Savior.

Obedience to God is the key to breaking free from the bondage of sin.

My personal opinion, and this is not something that I have received in the transmission of the faith, but my personal opinion, is that we can consider many of these "little rules" as opportunities to practice our obedience if for no other reason that is apparent to us. Kind of like the Nike Athletic Wear slogan, "Just do it!"

Consider them as such opportunities until we understand the true meaning of the rules. I do know from personal experience that for many such practices we cannot understand their meaning until we actually practice them with diligence and care. Some practices defy explanation until we incorporate them into our life. Once they become part of our life, we will see the fruits of these practices, and we see the reason.

Just do it, but keep your wits about you. I am not advocating blind obedience at all. Use your common sense. I am just suggesting an alternative perspective from which we can better approach these issue

Patrick

[RichardWorthington]

Having written a parallel passage about 'women teaching' vs 'men being humble' (1 Timothy 2:11-15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=1+Timothy+2%3A11-15) see
http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=69694#post69694) I thought I would put my thoughts parallelling the famous 'head covering' passage of St Paul. The explanations are quite long, so please be patient!

It occurred to me that the ‘head covering’ passage was not just one-sided, but so precisely and exactly one-sided that there must be another half that St Paul could have written had the need arisen. I had long thought of trying to turn it around by basing it on "woman is heart" instead of "man is head", but got nowhere fast. Then a thought occurred to me. In church history it is clear that women wore veils on their heads: "Throughout Greece, and certain of its barbaric provinces, the majority of Churches keep their virgins covered." (Tertullian, "On the Veiling of Virgins", ch. 2) So, methought, is there a similar restriction or leaning on men’s appearance? Indeed there is: in the world of the medieval Orthodox Slavs, it was very serious "for a man to ‘make himself resemble a woman’ by shaving his beard; for this offense he could be anathematised" (p. 202, "Sex, Church, and Society in the Orthodox Slavs 900 -1700", Eve Levin)

In the Old Testament we can find a similar attitude: you shall not "disfigure the edges of you beard" (Lev. 19:27), thereby assuming that all men had beards. St Cosmas of Aetolia (18th century) said, "It is natural for a man who is going on fifty years to wear a beard. But here I see old men who are sixty and eighty years old and still shave. Aren't you ashamed to shave? Doesn't God who gave us beards know better? Just as it is unseemly for an old woman to deck herself out and put on cosmetics, so it is for an old man to shave." (from http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/kosmas/first.html).

So switching from ‘head coverings’ and veils to having a beard on the face I produced the following parallel to 1 Corinthians 11:2-16:




1 Corinthians 11:2-16 Parallel

2 Now I praise you, Now I praise you, brethren,
brethren, that you remember that you remember me in all
me in all things and keep things and keep the
the traditions just as I traditions just as I
delivered them to you. delivered them to you.

3 But I want you to know But I want you to know that
that the head of every man the face of every woman is
is Christ, the head of woman the Church, the face of man
is man, and the head of is woman, and the face of
Christ is God. the Church is the glory of
God.

4 Every man praying or Every woman praying or
prophesying, having his head prophesying wearing a false
covered, dishonours his beard on her face dishonours
head. her face.

5 But every woman who prays But every man who prays or
or prophesies with her head prophesies with a clean
uncovered dishonours her shaven face dishonours his
head, for that is one and face, for that is one and
the same as if her head were the same as if his face were
shaved. in an iron mask.


6 For if a woman is not For if a man is clean
covered, let her also be shaven, let him also wear an
shorn. But if it is shameful iron mask. But if it is
for a woman to be shorn or shameful for a man to wear
shaved, let her be covered. an iron mask or be clean
shaven, let him grow a
beard.

7 For a man indeed ought not For a woman indeed ought not
to cover his head, since he to wear a false beard on her
is the image and glory of face, since she is the
God; but woman is the glory likeness and receiver of
of man. God; but man is the receiver
of woman.

8 For man is not from woman, For woman was created inside
but woman from man. Paradise, but man was
created from dust outside
Paradise.

9 Nor was man created for And woman is the completion
the woman, but woman for the of man, but man was made
man. lacking.

10 For this reason the woman For this reason the man
ought to have [a symbol of] ought to have [a symbol of]
authority on her head, authority on his face,
because of the angels. because of the angels.


11 Nevertheless, neither is Nevertheless, neither is
man independent of woman, woman independent of man,
nor woman independent of nor man independent of
man, in the Lord. woman, in the Lord.

12 For as woman came from For as the man was from
man, even so man also comes dust, even so the woman is
through woman; but all also from man; but all
things are from God. things are from God.

13 Judge among yourselves. Is it Judge among yourselves. Is
proper for a woman to pray to it proper for a man to pray
God with her head uncovered? to God with his face clean
shaven?

14 Does not even nature itself Does not even nature itself
teach you that if a man has teach you that if a woman
long hair, it is a dishonour wears a false beard, it is a
to him? dishonour to her?

15 But if a woman has long But if a man has a beard, it
hair, it is a glory to her; is a glory to him; for his
for her hair is given to her hair is given to him for a
for a covering. beard.

16 But if anyone seems to be But if anyone seems to be
contentious, we have no such contentious, we have no such
custom, nor do the churches custom, nor do the churches
of God. of God.



How did I make this parallel passage?

In St Paul’s passage the word ‘head’ is used both literally (as the bodily head) and symbolically (as ‘source’, although others would say ‘authority’). So as the beard is on the face, I used the word face both literally (as the facial part of the head) and symbolically. The symbolical usage of face I had in mind was as a mask which is the natural expression of what is underneath it, rather than a mask which seeks to hide what it covers: a ‘mask’ or ‘face’ which reveals what is within (e.g. our emotions showing in our facial expressions) and is the ultimate manifestation of what is within since the face covers everything underneath it. From what I know, the word ‘face’ in the Bible also means ‘presence’.

Verse 3: "But I want you to know that the face of every woman is the Church, the face of man is woman, and the face of the Church is the glory of God."

Now the Church is not only "the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Eph. 1:23), but also the glorified "woman clothed with the sun" of the Book of Revelation (Rev. 12:1) and "the mother of us all" (Galatians 4:26). Is not therefore this divine aspect of the Body of Christ the ultimate ‘face’ of woman and of mother and, by implication, of all that ‘femaleness’ implies? In other words, "the face of every woman is the Church".

Similarly, Mme Elisabeth Behr-Sigel has written about the Virgin Mary, "She is the archetype and the guide of those men and women who aspire to give birth to Christ in their hearts" (p. 207, "The ministry of women in the church"), and so, "There is no doubt a deep meaning in the fact that this whole and complete humanity carries the features of a woman, a mother" (p. 24). As woman came from man’s side, is she not the manifestation (and realisation) of what God hid in Adam? That is, can she not be called the "face" of man?

Furthermore, as the Church "the woman, the Lamb’s bride" is described as "the holy city Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God" (Rev. 21:9-12), then maybe it can be said that the "face" of the Mother Church (i.e. the manifestation of Her inner treasure) is the glory of God?

Verse 7: "For a woman indeed ought not to wear a false beard on her face, since she is the likeness and receiver of God; but man is the receiver of woman".

First, as God made us in His image and likeness "male and female" (Gen. 1:27), I simply substituted "likeness" for "image" as we are now talking about females and not males. (I have also read that some writers have made a distinction between image and likeness which could be brought into the understanding here.)

Now regarding the next part of this parallel that woman is the "receiver of God; but man is the receiver of woman", St Paul wrote that man is the "glory of God; but woman is the glory of man" (1 Cor. 11:7). Now the glory of God comes from ("shines from") God, man "comes" from God by being created by His power and glory, and woman comes from man, from his side by God’s power. So my idea is this: God becomes incarnate of a woman ("made of woman", Gal. 4:4), and yet it is woman who was brought to the man (Gen. 2:22). In other words, woman receives God, but man receives woman.

Furthermore, it has been said that, from the viewpoint of creation, there could be a "hierarchy": God, then man, then woman. However, from this viewpoint of the union of God with humanity via the Incarnation, there could be another "hierarchy": God, then woman, then man. I guess this is what is at the heart of the (authentic) veneration of the Virgin Mary. And it is important to note that all women without any possible exceptions are included in the veneration of the Virgin Mary, as St Proclus commented that calling Mary the Mother of God is the "glorification of the race of women" ("Ancient Turkey", Setan Lloyd, British Museum Publications Ltd, 1989; page 224).

Verse 8: "For woman was created inside Paradise, but man was created from dust outside Paradise"

Next, in order to parallel "man is not from woman, but woman from man" (1 Cor. 11:8), I wrote, "For woman was created inside Paradise, but man was created from dust outside Paradise". It is true that woman is from man, but significantly the locations of their creations are different. Man was created from the dust of the earth (Gen. 2:7), and then placed inside Paradise (Gen. 2:8). And so it is inside Paradise that woman was created from man (Gen. 2:21). (This is mentioned by St Ambrose of Milan in his work "Paradise", p. 301, trans. John Savage.)

Verse 9: "And woman is the completion of man, but man was made lacking."

Next, to parallel "Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man" (1 Cor. 11:9), I wrote, "And woman is the completion of man, but man was made lacking." How was man made lacking? The world over which man rules (or at least, should rule with godliness) has its "earnest expectation … the revealing of the sons of God" (Rom. 8:19). And yet how can we become sons of God if not through the Incarnation of the Son of God? And through whom does the Son of God become incarnate? It is only through woman (in particular through the Virgin Mary), not man. As such then, man can not satisfy the creation’s "earnest expectation" except via woman becoming the vehicle of the Incarnation. So woman was made for man, but this is due to a divinely created lack in man for the salvation of the world rather than her being created to serve him and pander to him.

Does this help?

Richard

PS. I did think about the phrase "because of the angels", but I cannot remember now what I thought. (I wrote these thoughts down ages ago - it has been a hobby of mine!). I can look it up if anyone wishes.

[Mary Halloran Snyder]

I do not have any objection to wearing a headcovering while praying or worshipping God. Usually, I do wear a head scarf when I go to church, do activities at the parish hall or when I spend time with our clergy. Most of the women who attend our Church do not wear headcoverings, but a few of them do, and I am one of them. I would say that I cover my head because I made a promise to God and His Mother that I would be modest, and especially modest at Church, and I have done my best to do so. To me, wearing a head covering feels natural, it has always been my inclination to do so, even when I was a child, even when I have been part of religious congregations that did not do so. I am not sure where my feelings about this were predicated. I tend to interpret this as that God gave me an inclination to wear a headcovering, and I agreed.

My question: My hair is very fine and wispy. It is really hard for me to control all the little wisps. I cover my head in a generous way, so that the vast majority of my hair is covered, but some little wisps do generally escape, at my neck and at the sides of my face, especially when I move around (do prostrations etc.) Is anyone going to be offended by that if I visit an Orthodox Church? Or should I work harder on a fool-proof way to keep all the little wisps out of sight? I do use a lot of pins, I really intend to keep my hair covered.

My reason that I cover is because it is pleasing to the Lord. If being modest about my hair keeps others from inappropriate attentions, that is also good, but I'm really not covering for that purpose. I have been in situations where a wisp is seen as a very lax, careless bad thing, and is really offensive and frowned upon, and if that is the case at most places, I will respectfully find a foolproof way to keep all the wisps under complete control at all times.

[Paul Cowan]

Dear Mary,

If a stray wisp of hair causes people scandal, I pity them that are exposed to those people who dress immodestly in church. Which is worse? Stray hair or excessive skin? Don't worry about others. You are there for God and no one else.

Paul

[Mary Halloran Snyder]

Thanks Paul! That is true and thinking about it that way makes me feel a lot better!


Dear Mary,
(snip) You are there for God and no one else.

Paul

[Nina]

Dear Mary,

If a stray wisp of hair causes people scandal, I pity them that are exposed to those people who dress immodestly in church. Which is worse? Stray hair or excessive skin? Don't worry about others. You are there for God and no one else.

Paul

LOL You never know. It depends on the preferences people have: - that meaning- what kinds of temptations the evil one plants in us. Also it depends on the situation. I read an article that there was a study being conducted about men's behavior at the beach. It was so funny to read that the highest percentage of them, in the midst of bikini wearing women, were actually staring and following the only girl that had on a pareo. See we never know the tricks of temptation. That being said:

Dear Mary, just try to ignore the situations. You are doing great and I admire you for being modest. I am not even 1% of what you are, so good for you - and try to keep the eyes on the target and do not let flies bother you.

Sorry, it has been a tempestuous day temptation-wise for me. I do not know why am I so proud and can't get over them. And here I am teaching others... :(

[Alice]

There is a google ad below this site which clicked on and which has very nice headscarves for Muslim women. Some of these women look so fashionable, attractive, as well as comfortable while still being fully covered up!

How do they do it?

I always feel awkward wearing head scarves, and I find that having one's ears covered so tightly really impedes hearing as well as makes the sound of the fabric moving resonate into one's ears.

I also like the tunics and other modest clothing they show....

http://www.eastessence.com/?gclid=CPTMstH5kZcCFQwNGgodIzpICQ

What do you think, Nina ?!?

[Mary Halloran Snyder]

Actually, I get most of my best scarf tying info from sites meant to support tzniut/frum modest Jewish women.

This is my favorite scarf tying site.

http://www.tznius.com/cgi-bin/tying.pl

I still need to use pins to keep them on. And it was an eye opener to me that some ways to wear scarves require two scarves or more. The size and shapes of scarves also make a difference. There is a woman at my church who wears a lovely black mantilla. I am not brave enough to do that, but I think it is very graceful and suits her perfectly.

Some fabrics do rustle and disturb hearing more than others. Satiny polyester scarves do that to me and slip off more easily. My favorite scarf is a thin woven wool scarf, it's also warm when the hall is cold! I also have two silk scarves that are light and very comfortable, and that don't affect my hearing at all,a nd that don't slip off because they are woven with texture. Some ways to wear scarves don't cover the ears completely, if I had any kind of problem hearing I'd choose to wear my scarves that way all the time.

I know people who have traveled in places where women need to wear total cover up because of social custom, and the stories I have heard make me glad I do not have to-- being hot, hard to see, hard to hear, sometimes hard to move...I don't think God is asking that of us as Christian women. (And if you read the guidelines for modesty for Islamic women, there's a lot of reference to protecting women from inciting or receiving lustful attentions so I think they are far more concerned with the eyes of men than the Eye of God.) I think Jesus and his Mother are just asking for modesty. So I lean more toward guidelines for Tzniut than I do for guidelines for Islamic modesty.

I was blessed to grow up around a lot of modest Orthodox Jewish women, so I know you can be modest without being frumpy. Those women really knew how to put scarves on! And keep them on!

[Nina]

What do you think, Nina ?!?

What can I think dear Alice? I am so vain I can be narcissist with any thing. (sigh... shrug)

[Effie Ganatsios]

Could it be that this covering up is not only a sign of respect for the church but also a protection for women.

In my own case I know that now that I am older I have become somewhat "invisible" and I really love it. I feel so much more comfortable now.



In every religion there are rules concerning clothing and I believe that they were created to protect women when they were outside their homes.

I do not know any Muslim women but I have seen documentaries on TV and have seen them beautifully dressed when they are with other women and just enjoying themselves. The long covering gowns they wear are only used when they are in situations where they might meet men who are not family members.



"Islam pays much attention to the protection of women and caring for women's specific needs. This special consideration honours her and makes secure her position in life. The rules on clothing placed on a muslim woman ensure that she is guarded against all types of corruption that may result if her beauty becomes a dazzling display for all to see. "

What is curious is that Muslim men are also subject to clothing rules :

"All Muslims, men and women, must cover themselves and avoid revealing clothes which are designed to accentuate and enhance the contours of the body and emphasise it's physical beauty.

Men are not allowed to expose any part of their body between the navel and the knee.

A man is not allowed to wear any items of gold. 'White gold' is permissible.

A man is not allowed to wear pure and natural silk (except for special circumstances). "

The rule concerning gold is also curious. Does gold excite some women? Is this the reason it is not permitted?

Effie

Considering the revealing and immodest displays we see on TV every day - and which, incidentally young children also see - it is hard to imagine how much further these things will go. There is really nothing more to reveal except total nudity and perhaps we will also see this in the future. My grandmother, if she were still alive, would be shocked at what women are revealing.

And, as Nina says, if the object is to excite men, then this total "unveiling" is having the opposite effect. Two beautiful eyes seen for an instant will cause the imagination of the man seeing them hours of pleasant speculation.

It is sad that beautiful, modest women are now considered old fashioned, and that women who act as prostitutes acted in the past, are now considered natural and modern.

This is just another sign of the times.

[Nina]

And, as Nina says, if the object is to excite men, then this total "unveiling" is having the opposite effect. Two beautiful eyes seen for an instant will cause the imagination of the man seeing them hours of pleasant speculation.


Wow dear Effie! My mom said exactly the same thing! :) My mom used to say: "Ah eyes, what they are capable of doing! Even if a woman is covered with an ugly sack from head to toe and her eyes are provoking, it does not help. Eyes can start wars."

This was to teach us (my and my cousins -females) how to behave and to be careful not to look people in the eye when we walked. Since it is considered immoral for a young girl to look a man in the eye in our culture (or it was considered).

[Paul Cowan]

I can't seem to find it at the moment, but there was a female saint who when courted by a young man asked him what he liked so much about her. He said her beautiful eyes, so she took her sewing needles out and gouged out her eyes so as not to lead him into temptation over her. Can someone find this story?

Paul

[Mary]

Eyes, are definitely powerful. But there is a right way to look and a wrong way to look, and I have been deeply healed by the right kind of look, and wounded by the wrong look or no look at all.

I try to think in my heart: "I love you" when I look at my kids. I don't know if they can tell. I do know my how my anger used to fly out of my eyes. I could feel it. It's a good thing I'm not from Krypton, or else I would've incinerated many people! I didn't know how deeply the person I was angry at could also feel it, till one day, when someone I was mad at, knew I was mad and I was behind him, and he couldn't see my eyes! That really scared me, and I began to work on controlling my anger after that. I was afraid I really would burn someone.

I think, when Jesus was on earth, he healed many many hearts by looking into their eyes. Can you imagine, the woman brought to him, whom everyone wanted to stone... can you imagine the magnitude of healing that happened in her, when He looked at her? That's why I love our icons so much. For the eyes. Eyes are much more eloquent than tongues. =)

mary

[Nina]

I can't seem to find it at the moment, but there was a female saint who when courted by a young man asked him what he liked so much about her. He said her beautiful eyes, so she took her sewing needles out and gouged out her eyes so as not to lead him into temptation over her. Can someone find this story?

Paul

I think I have read this but can't recall. :( sorry

There is a story which I have seen made into a movie (Greek) where a nun with beautiful eyes was seen by a high ranked Muslim, and he kept stalking the monastery and the nun, in order to convince her to marry him, so she took her eyes out in front of the iconostasis with a knife...

[Effie Ganatsios]

Eyes, are definitely powerful. But there is a right way to look and a wrong way to look, and I have been deeply healed by the right kind of look, and wounded by the wrong look or no look at all.

I try to think in my heart: "I love you" when I look at my kids. I don't know if they can tell. I do know my how my anger used to fly out of my eyes. I could feel it. It's a good thing I'm not from Krypton, or else I would've incinerated many people! I didn't know how deeply the person I was angry at could also feel it, till one day, when someone I was mad at, knew I was mad and I was behind him, and he couldn't see my eyes! That really scared me, and I began to work on controlling my anger after that. I was afraid I really would burn someone.

I think, when Jesus was on earth, he healed many many hearts by looking into their eyes. Can you imagine, the woman brought to him, whom everyone wanted to stone... can you imagine the magnitude of healing that happened in her, when He looked at her? That's why I love our icons so much. For the eyes. Eyes are much more eloquent than tongues. =)

mary

Mary, our eyes express what is in our souls. Your love for your children shines through your eyes.

Cold people, whose souls are not as God meant them to be, can make their mouths smile but their eyes cannot be changed. Unless, of course, the devil is their master. As we all know, some men have pretended to be saints while all the time they were devils.

Can you imagine what Jesus' eyes were like. I don't believe that anyone who looked at him or whom he looked at was ever the same again.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

It's a good thing I'm not from Krypton, or else I would've incinerated many people! I didn't know how deeply the person I was angry at could also feel it, till one day, when someone I was mad at, knew I was mad and I was behind him, and he couldn't see my eyes! That really scared me, and I began to work on controlling my anger after that. I was afraid I really would burn someone.


mary

Mary, emotions affect our whole bodies. I am going to tell you about an experience I had years ago.

I was having trouble with the back of my neck and my doctor prescribed physiotherapy. One of the methods used was electricity which was applied to my shoulders and neck. I don't know the medical term for this treatment.

One morning, before going to work, I had an argument with my husband. I went to work and after work, in the afternoon, went to my physiotherapist's appointment. He started the electrical treatment and put the machine on the setting he usually used. This caused me great pain. He lowered the intensity, again and again - 4 times in all. He then stopped and told me something was wrong. He asked me whether anything had happened to upset me. The only thing I could think of was the argument I had had with my husband that morning. I was no longer angry of course, but he said that we would have to stop because my body was still upset (even though my mind wasn't) and it couldn't tolerate any electricity at all.

This proves to me how our whole bodies are affected by what is in our hearts.

We need to concentrate on our hearts and what is in them - just as you said -

"I didn't know how deeply the person I was angry at could also feel it, till one day, when someone I was mad at, knew I was mad and I was behind him, and he couldn't see my eyes! That really scared me, and I began to work on controlling my anger after that."

Effie

[Mary Ann H.]

I can't seem to find it at the moment, but there was a female saint who when courted by a young man asked him what he liked so much about her. He said her beautiful eyes, so she took her sewing needles out and gouged out her eyes so as not to lead him into temptation over her. Can someone find this story?

Paul

Hello, Paul,
Yes, this is quite a story, and I think the saint you have in mind is Saint Mastridia, who is commemorated on November 24. Here is what "The Prologue of Ohrid" says about her: "Mastridia lived in Alexandria and led a solitary life of prayer and handiwork. A young man, burning with bodily passion toward her, constantly harassed her. Not wanting to sin before God, and since she could not easily be rid of this unrestrained youth, St. Mastridia once asked him what attracted him most to her. He replied: ``Your eyes!'' Mastridia then took the needle with which she was sewing and put out her eyes. Thus, Mastridia preserved her peace and the young man's soul. The young man repented deeply, and became a monk."
Mary Ann

[Paul Cowan]

Hello, Paul,
Yes, this is quite a story, and I think the saint you have in mind is Saint Mastridia, who is commemorated on November 24. Here is what "The Prologue of Ohrid" says about her: "Mastridia lived in Alexandria and led a solitary life of prayer and handiwork. A young man, burning with bodily passion toward her, constantly harassed her. Not wanting to sin before God, and since she could not easily be rid of this unrestrained youth, St. Mastridia once asked him what attracted him most to her. He replied: ``Your eyes!'' Mastridia then took the needle with which she was sewing and put out her eyes. Thus, Mastridia preserved her peace and the young man's soul. The young man repented deeply, and became a monk."
Mary Ann

Thank you Mary Ann. That was the one I was thinking of.

[Patrick]

H, I Corin. 11:14 says, "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long, it is a disgrace to him?" Yet many Orthodox men don't cut their hair. That is just below a question about women and unveiled heads. One scripture is taken literally and another not. Why?


The following is quoted from:

Concerning the Tradition of Long Hair and Beards (http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/pages/Orthodox_Life/longhair.htm)

In our passage noted previously, Both not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? (I Cor. 11:14) Saint Paul uses the Greek word for "hair." This particular word for hair designates hair as an a ornament (the notion of length being only secondary and suggested), differing from the anatomical or physical term for hair. Saint Paul's selection of words emphasizes his criticism of laymen wearing their hair in a stylized fashion, which was contrary to pious Jewish and Christian love of modesty. We note the same approach to hair as that of Saint Paul in the 96th canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council where it states: "Those therefore who adorn and arrange their hair to the detriment of those who see them, that is by cunningly devised intertwinings, and by this means put a bait in the way of unstable souls."


To reply to A Desert Aspirant and to add to what Herman quoted: I believe that 1 Corinthians 11:16 shows itself to be an answer to the question. I can only pray to God that I have not misinterpreted this verse. If I have, please forgive me and pray for me to God so that I may receive a better understanding of the Holy Scriptures.

14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.