Prostrations

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear All,

Can someone please explain how to perform a prostration? And what is the difference between a prostration and a Great Prostration? I am hoping to be able to say the prayer of St Ephrem which is on the monachos website, but I´m not really sure what the physical actions are.

Also, Greek-speakers may be able to tell me, is "vazo metanoia" the same as a prostration? When and how do we "vazoume metanoia"?

Many thanks

ICXC
Byron

[Irene]

This is the way we do the prayer of St Ephrem:-

Kneel and bow your head right to the ground then stand - at the end of the first 3 lines then again at the end of the whole prayer.*

The other thing we do is the full bows from waist 12 times.+

..........

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despondency, lust for power and idle talk.
(Prostration)*

But grant unto me, Thy servant, a spirit of chastity, humility, patience and love.
(Prostration)*

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see mine own faults and not to judge my brothers and sisters. For blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen.
(Prostration)*

O God, cleanse Thou me a sinner (12 times, with as many bows,+

and then again the whole prayer from the beginning throughout, and after that one great prostration)

[Denise King]

Hi Byron,

Also a beginner, I was looking for practical tips. It takes some practice before you can do this fluidly, but it works well. It's all in the toes.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif}

Very often those new to Orthodoxy, or new to keeping Orthodox traditions, make these prostrations in ways which are ungainly, difficult and possibly injurious—by kneeling down and flopping forward for instance. The better way to make them and the way employed by people from Orthodox cultures is difficult to explain in words, but much easier to execute; it is thus: make the sign of the Cross, bow forward from the waist, and continue down, bending the knees somewhat, until both hands touch the floor in front of you. Make sure your hands are placed directly below the shoulders, not too close and not too far apart (this will make rising easier). Then bend the knees more till they touch the floor, at the same time bringing down your forehead to the floor. In rising, first lift the head and then push up on the arms to straighten out. If you find this difficult to understand, ask an "experienced prostrater" to show you and help you. You will find this much easier than the "kneel and flop" method, and that you will almost be able to make the whole movement down (death) and up (resurrection) in one. Of course, if you are elderly, pregnant or infirm, you should be careful about making prostrations and no one will expect you to do so. One can bow at the times when the others are prostrating. Don't be too ready to excuse yourself on account of infirmity though—I can remember elderly Russian ladies at the old Cathedral at Emperors's Gate showing an example by making prostrations to the ground, even if it required two younger and fitter people then to pick them up afterwards!
Source: Practical Tips for Orthodox Living, http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/practical.aspx

Denise

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Also instead of going down on the palms of your hands put your hands into a fist & then extend your thumbs. With your forehead touching the floor and your knees still bent somewhat you are in a shape to rise up rather than if you had flopped to the ground. There is even something spiritually different when one does it this way. You really "arise" when you get back up rather than 'un-gluing' yourself from the floor. Anyway-a lot of monastics use this method.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Trudy]

This is a very helpful explanation. I'm going to try this. It also helps explain why women wear long dresses! To try and do this in anything shorter than mid-calf would be...well...unseemly. Plus doing it this way would help prevent stepping on the long dress too. Ah, there is a reason to everything.

Athanasia

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Bless Fr Raphael,

And thank you all for your kind responses to my query. I am still wondering, however, what the difference is between an ordinary prostration and a Great Prostration. Also, I would appreciate any input from Greek speakers who know what "vazo metanoia" (lit. to "put repentance") means.

I wish everybody a successful continuation of their Lenten journey.

ICXC
Byron

[Denise King]

Dear Byron,

As I understand it, an "ordinary" prostration (Greek metanoia) is a deep bow from the waist where the right hand touches the floor. A "great" prostration (Greek megali metanoia) is what we understand to be a prostration, i.e. on all fours on the floor, with the head touching the ground. The Greek word metanoia is translated as prostration in both cases, which might be causing your confusion. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Denise

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

An ordinary prostration would be a bow from the waist accompanied by the sign of the Cross. A great prostration would be going down to the floor with hands, knees and forehead touching the floor. This is also preceded by doing the sign of the Cross.

It gets confusing because of the similar terminology used for these in the original Orthodox languages. For example in the Old Rite Prayer Book for a bow it says- "poklon"; while for a prostration to the ground it says- "poklon do zemli" ("poklon to the ground"). To try to make things a bit more clear, in English we often say "bow" for a bow from the waist, and "prostration" for going down to the ground.

I hope this helps.

Thank you for your wishes regarding Great Lent. This week is the 4th week of Great Lent. The Precious & Life-giving Cross was brought out this past Saturday evening for the veneration of the faithful. It remains in the middle of the church until Friday at the 9th Hour. Tomorrow is actually the exact mid-point of the Fast & the services for tomorrow make note of this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Trudy]

Just to jump in here a second....I'm wondering if Byron isn't asking the "technical" differences between a prostration and a Great Prostration, but the difference in "purpose" between the two. Is there a greater significance in purpose or veneration with a Great Prostration?

But then again, I'm not Byron, but that's what he seems to be asking - at least to me. Byron, feel free to correct me if I'm off base.

Athanasia

[nurse-aid]

my dear...it is very simple...i just never get up from my knee...never...and this is only what i can do...then simply put my head down and stay and pray like that...like a pig...who cannot see sun...as i'm cannot see that Light!

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Fr Raphael and Denise,

Thank you both for your clarifications re "prostration" and "Great Prostration". It all makes much more sense now. Athanasia, I was asking a primarily technical question about this distinction, but your observation that there may be a greater significance in purpose or veneration with a Great Prostration seems important. I have seen people bow and touch the ground with one hand before greeting a bishop, for example, but I haven't seen anyone perform a Great Prostration in this case! Fr Raphael may be able to clarify whether such a greeting would be acceptable in the case of a very revered figure such as say, the Ecumenical Patriarch? (needless to say all such greetings would be to these men as icons of Christ...)

Also, I wonder if Pope John Paul II kissing the ground in countries he visited could have been said to have been performing Great Prostrations?

ICXC
Byron

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Normally when meeting a bishop or a priest one says, "Master bless" (bishop) or "Father bless" (priest). You make a bow & then hold your hands out together palms upward, right over left and then then kiss the hand of the bishop or priest blessing. I've never seen a great prostration when receiving a blessing of this sort.

But there are times when we ask forgiveness of each other and then do a great prostration- especially during Great Lent at the Forgiveness Sunday Vespers as Great Lent begins. Or when we feel that we have especially offended someone.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[nurse-aid]

i ask forgiveness...for what i offened by asking SOMETHING i think i do not undesrand still...forgive me...

[Basil Shannon]

At forgiveness vespers, is it correct to cross oneself before prostrating before one another? Our parish does it this way, but I don't always know if we do things traditionally. It seems a little odd to make the sign of the cross before each other, since we don't even do that when receiveing a bishop's blessing.

Basil

[nurse-aid]

well in church were i'm now...Fr.Patrik always stayed in front of us...in the middle in the end of service...when commemoration of saint before end...so he always cross himself in front of us...i guess he knows what he is doing...

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The general principle is that you do not cross yourself before receiving a blessing from a bishop or priest. Crossing oneself is calling down a blessing on oneself so there is no need for this if we are asking a blessing from the bishop or priest.

But when asking forgiveness of each other it is correct to cross ourselves-it is as if we are saying, "In the Name of the Father & the Son & the Holy Spirit...forgive me."

In Christ- Fr Raphael