The conduct of priests

[Effie Ganatsios]

I needed to start a thread concerning the conduct or misconduct of Orthodox priests and our reactions.

You are probably unaware that for the past week, here in Greece, there has been a tremendous scandal concerning certain priests – one Metropolitan was found to have a huge sum of money in 2 bank accounts – one in his name and the other in his sister’s name. I listened to him answering reporter’s questions yesterday and each time he gave another explanation for this money. The church has suspended this Metropolitan and taken various actions against the other priests involved but the whole thing will be reviewed again in 6 months. One Archimandrite – accused of the theft of church property - was arrested today by the police and is being held in custody. Some priests are claiming that the whole thing is a plot against the Orthodox church while others are asking for a catharsis of the Church itself.

“ Be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity." [I Tim. 4:12] This quotation of St. Paul to Timothy, which is traditionally engraved on the back of the priest’s pectoral cross, means that priests are called to be not just teachers, or leaders, or administrators, but first and foremost examples.”


I know that a priest is responsible for his actions and will give account to Christ and it is definitely not my place to judge, but this latest scandal is not, by far, the only one that has distressed me. Priests are not saints and no-one expects them to be but the overall impression that Greek Orthodox priests sometimes give is that of avarice, arrogance and disregard for the Christians under their care. Disciplinary action taken against priests who don’t conduct themselves as they should is also practically non-existent. I realize that those priests in charge of disciplining others sometimes fail to do their duty because of concern about the consequences to the Church, but surely other consequences, such as the disgust of our young people, should also be taken into account.

Economically things are hard here at the moment in Greece, and people give money to the Church in the hope that it will be used in positive ways – and not find its way into the bank accounts of unscrupulous priests.

I’d like your opinion on this subject please. What do the Fathers tell us about this – I wasn’t able to find anything except for some general comments.

Effie

[Edward Henderson]

Dear Effie,

I think we are trecking down the wrong track if we were to discuss this. The first thing we have to realize is that the holiness or lack of,of a clergyman does not effect the holy mysteries he performs. Secondly, clergy are human beings and we tend to put standards on them that we ourselves cannot and do not follow. Thirdly, one church father (I forget whom) once said, "the road to Hell is paved with the bones of bishops and priests".

We can look through Church history and find countless examples of clergy who severly 'missed the mark'. But rather than focus our attention on the unholy ones, it is better and more soul profitting to focus our attention of the lives of the saints, who were often persecuted by the clergy. Church politics is a dangerous game and often leads those who dabble in it out of the church, either into schism, heresy, apostacy, or unbelief.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Articles about what Effie refers to came through our church lists this morning. Of course there is alot that can be missed from reading media reports about Church events, but at first reading it does seem that the Church in Greece is trying to deal in a proper way with the clergymen who did these things.

In general I would say that this is a better time in the Orthodox Church as far as scandals of this sort are concerned. Compared to a few decades ago one hears of less open scandals & more of vigourous Church action against such abuses. From what I read in the articles it seems that the Synod of Bishops of the Greek Church is very concerned about this & will not simply sweep the whole matter under the rug.

When it comes to grave matters like this we don't just sweep everything under the rug but we also have to be careful not to fall into an overly critical spirit. Just as we would wish to have others listen to our explanation of things if we were accused of something very serious so we also must give the accused the opportunity to explain themselves.
Actually abuses of this sort are dealt with clearly in the Canons & they tend to be the Canons that are most often used in regards to the clergy. On the other hand the same Canons also state that the accused clergy must be given the opportunity to explain himself- canonical measures cannot be taken against him without appearing before an ecclesiastical court in which he may freely try to explain himself.

I think this whole question of clergy abuse or sinful falls is very delicate. On the one hand it is not right to let clergy run rampant through the Church causing temptation & harm to others. And obviously clergy are subject to the same legal prescriptions as anyone else. But on the other hand we must be extremely sober in these matters. Remember how many saintly hierarchs such as St Nektarios of Aegina or St John of San Francisco were accused of terrible things in their life time when this was completely false. St John was actually taken to court & at one point things got so bad there was almost a lynch mob out to get him. Thank God this eventually all died down but not before years had passed by.

In any case I think what is most important to keep in mind even in the midst of certain verifiable abuses is that as Edward says the Church is not defined by the sin of its members. Rather the Church is defined by the Life & grace of Christ that the faithful share in. During events that really are distressing it is easy to forget this & that the good in the faithful who surround us is often more invisible than their sin. Life in the Church is always a careful balancing act.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Edward,

Would it have been better for the Church during the Arian, Nestorian, Palagian, Modalist or Christological controversies to not discuss any of those problems? Yes, those names wEre associated with some pretty serious heresies that plagued the Church, but then, so was ecclesiastical piety which forced (in a sense) men into the monastic life.

The standard to which clerics are held is no different than that which is required of you or I(take note of that), "be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect..." And that in itself is the reason we can look at those who have "missed the mark" and be able to tell that they've erred. The Treasury Dept. trains it's agents to spot counterfeits by minute observation of real saints/currency.

Church politics may indeed be a dangerous game, but consider that the ecclesiastical structure is another heritage of the Orthodox Church. Shucks, it's right there in the pages of the New Testament. Do not forget that many of the Church's earliest saints were Patriarchs, Metropolitans, and Bishops.

One of the responsibilities as "shepherd of souls" of our hierarchy is to be mindful of such actions of clergy as Effie is concerned about. It's true enough that we must each give account of ourselves to God, for we are all His servants, but then again each member of the Body of Christ is responsible to the other members, either that or no one should ever say again anything about the Church being a "community" of saints.

One of the reasons that the Church in the secular society is so ineffective is because we have a tendency to have our heads in the air, and not be concerned with those things on earth, which can dominate the lives of those we try to reach for the Lord Jesus Christ.

To loosely quote Fr. Vereshack; Life in the Church is a BALANCING act.

THE SINFUL AND UNWORTHY SERVANT

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thank you for your very informative replies.

How do we "neutralize" the bitterness negative actions by priests cause us to feel?

Archbishop Christodoulos says all the latests scandals - which seem to multiply day by day - are a direct attack on the Orthodox church in Greece. The Holy Synod seem to be very upset about each new accusation and are demanding that each priest accused prepare a written answer to be submitted to them. I just can't help wondering though why they needed to wait until investigative reporters stirred things up before taking action.

People are very bitter here - there has long been a feeling of unease concerning the conduct of priests but these latest scandals have made things much worse. I used the plural just now because the last couple of days have seen new ones being brought to life.

What should we do as Orthodox faithful. Have faith as Archbishop Christodoulos tells us and just ignore the accusations? Or should we demand of our priests that they get their house in order.
Do we even have the right to do the latter?

I agree with James when he says that :

"One of the reasons that the Church in the secular society is so ineffective is because we have a tendency to have our heads in the air, and not be concerned with those things on earth, which can dominate the lives of those we try to reach for the Lord Jesus Christ. "

My son and hundreds of thousands of others just like him - people who have been brought up in Christian Orthodox homes with good ethical values - have turned away - not from the Orthodox faith - but from the Orthodox Church. My heart bleeds for my son and I can't help but feel bitter that weak priests are to blame for his present attitude towards the Church.

How can I erase this bitterness from my heart?

Effie

[Daniel Jeandet]

Surely people dont turn away from the Church because of other peoples behaviour, they just use that as an excuse for turning away. Or I might be wrong, I just dont get it. Clearly the people are responsible in some way for the state of the Church. We should blame ourselves, that what saints did, then God would help us, or he will send more scandals till we soften our hearts? Anxiety is from the enemy. Im not sure, but I think I have seen great things happen in my life because I trusted God even when I was ripped off, even when everything seemed so terrible in my local Churches. Now things are getting better, but only if you can see it, and the grace is always there, but sometimes invisible. The more evil the situation, the more grace for trust and patience.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Effie,

I feel for you because the sins of others can be a stumbling block as Christ says. This is one of the most painful issues we face in the Church today.

Sin is something that has been around for a long time. As the Gospels & Acts of the Apostles & Epistles reveal it was there in the Apostolic Church. It was also there much at work through the time of St Constantine & Helen. And so it has gone through the passing centuries, especially since man has made a so-called culture out of rejecting God. Sin is something we all face in the Church & looking at the shape of society these days it is likely that we will see more sin not less. But the question for all of us is how are we as Orthodox Christians to face this? What does our Lord ask of us?

Certainly blaming each other is not the way. After all, clergy blaming laity for the troubles of the Church is as common as the laity blaming the clergy. But I would say in my experience that the problem with both attitudes is simple lack of faith- not faith in the sense of accepting certain doctrines, but faith as a lived out experience: of going forward like Abraham in uncertain conditions & of learning to put ourselves into God's hands amidst the turmoil of this life. And I would say- again from experience- that this is where most people in the Church stand or fall (clergy included). In other words, whether a person is simple or educated, old or young, the main thing needed nowadays is to continue going forward towards Christ not letting anything get in the way especially the sins of others.

In reality this is one of the most difficult aspects of our Orthodox life for it is very painful at times to encounter so much sin & brokeness around ourselves. But what is the alternative? Try through human means to stamp sin out? Leave the Church in frustration? Looked at calmly we can see that neither of these is the proper way forward.

Dealing with sin is a very delicate matter of balance & discernment. On the one hand just sweeping things under the rug is wrong. But on the other hand focussing on the sins of others can become a destructive exercise in frustration. Maybe the image of our own immediate family is most helpful for understanding this. From experience (especially after many years) we gradually learn how there are two extremes which are wrong & plain just don't work when it comes to raising children. Eventually we come to a sense of how balance is always needed in this very challenging calling of being a parent. But more than this we also gradually begin to understand how parenting is not at all a matter of controlling the fate & behaviour of everyone under our charge. Gradually we see how to do the best we can is precisely to leave much in God's hands- not in a cynical "what more can I do?" attitude- but rather in the sense of trusting in God's providence.

I think there are two issues here (at least) very important to keep in mind. One is that we know explicitly or implicity that a major aspect of being a parent is responsability for our family. But when it comes to the Church often a subtle shift occurs- we are more like those at a football match- we identify with the team playing and want then to do certain things- but at the same time we are also spectators who watch from the outside. We do not feel responsable as deeply as we would for our family. So the way we express our caring for the Church is not as responsible as for our family. But clearly this is wrong- the Church is our family & we must care for Her members in much the same way as our immediate family.

Lastly we also must keep in mind the teaching of our Holy Fathers that healing for the Church comes mainly through our own personal effort of attaining salvation. When we forget this we inevitably begin trying to heal the Church through our own passions. But none of this really heals even if someone is called to account for what they did. Then we are still seeeing the sinner as if we are spectators rather than as responsable family members.

The key here then is that within the Church we are all tied to each other. In some sense the sin of others is my sin also & their brokeness is mine. If their sin is their sin end of story -I think we can see what happens. We unconsciously set up walls of division within the Church which will never heal anything. So the sin around us is a very serious issue- and the scandals that arise from this sin. But to heal this we must humbly see how their sin is my sin; certainly this is not healed by pretending it is not there. But it is no more healed by only pointing the finger of condemnation. Rather it is healed by seeing that it is our sin & trying through our own life in Christ to heal this.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Edward's post no. 41

Dear Edward, thanks for responding. This subject troubled me in the past and now, I think it’s troubling just about everyone here.

The really terrific thing about Greek television is that it has endless chat shows and the main topic at the moment is what is happening in the Orthodox church.

Farther Nectarios Moulatsiotis – who is the Father Superior of the group of monks that have reached out to young people through their music – yesterday said much the same as you : “The first thing we have to realize is that the holiness or lack of, of a clergyman does not effect the holy mysteries he performs.” He also told us that St. Nektarios of Aigina was accused of immorality and proven to be innocent. So it’s not something new of course.

The other people on the panel objected strenuously to his remarks though because they said that when we go to confession, if we can’t respect the priest we’re confessing to how can we, in all sincerity, confess?

A while ago I read about the necessary attributes of spiritual fathers – I think in St. John of Kronstadt’s writings. He said that it was absolutely necessary to ascertain whether your spiritual father actually did the things he told you to do.
I’ll try to find the exact wording and post it.

You write : “But rather than focus our attention on the unholy ones, it is better and more soul profiting to focus our attention on the lives of the saints, who were often persecuted by the clergy. Church politics is a dangerous game and often leads those who dabble in it out of the church, either into schism, heresy, apostacy, or unbelief.”

I agree completely. Church politics are indeed complicated and it has already been suggested that at least one of the accused priests is the victim of a dissatisfied former rival for a high post in the Church. In another discussion yesterday, one of the speakers said that he felt that TV ratings were involved in all the “revelations” that were being presented each day by TV reporters. And, perhaps, that these same reporters were being used by people hostile to the Orthodox Church without being aware of it.

All the above does not explain how so many written complaints over the years have not lead to one single priest being prosecuted legally at the recommendation of the Holy Synod. All these complaints were simply “filed” away and forgotten. Yesterday the Holy Synod’s press representative, or whatever he is, officially stated that an office would be opened to which any Christian faithful could submit official complaints concerning Orthodox priests. He also said – in the same press conference – that from that moment no priests would be permitted to appear on TV chat shows.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Daniel’s post no. 29

Daniel, I have thought about this very deeply – because of my son and the children of many of my friends. Young people are very idealistic and hypocrisy is very apparent and hurtful to them. I have to confess that for many years when I first came here I didn’t really want to go to church. My husband and his family are wonderful people and I was treated with warmth and love by just about everyone – you have to know Greeks to appreciate how loving and hospitable they can be. I was however, at times, overwhelmed by a feeling of homesickness and sadness because of my separation from my family. A priest from St. Demetrios would come the first of every month – unfortunately, for some reason, priests no longer do this – to bless my house. One month I asked him to sit down for a while and talk to me. I told him about my feeling of loneliness and asked him what I could do to help myself. He answered that I should trust in the Lord, stuck out his hand, and said “âïçèåéá óïõ» (your help) the standard plea for a small donation. He hadn’t even sat down, by the way.

I was astounded and hurt because I had been used to our school Protestant pastor who was always ready to help us – our school had so few Orthodox students that the Protestant pastor was our only religious support.

I was only 21 when this happened, and it was not the only instance of priests acting in this manner. I could give you a long list of arrogant behaviour towards friends and relatives but I won’t of course.

I know the above is not an excuse but, again, when you’re young you expect people in authority, especially priests, to act the way they are supposed to act.

The main reason the young have turned away from the Church here in Greece is the behaviour of the Orthodox priests. Whether this is right or wrong is another matter – it is a fact. My son, who is a grown man now, only goes to church at Easter and at Christmas, even though he has a crucifix in his room and two icons. He is not lacking in faith but he has lost faith in the official Church. The prayer that he will come to accept the Church, as I have gradually over the years, is not even a vocal prayer for me any more, just a feeling deep within that hurts – even though I know, absolutely, that it will happen. I also feel that I am to blame somehow and am trying to deal with that as well.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Father Raphael’s post no. 455

Father Raphael, I have to think about your post carefully – it’s so full of really good advice – and reply when I am ready.

Thank you.

Effie

[matt]

Friends,
I mean this in complete humility, but I must say that I am disturbed by Daniel's comment that "we should blame ourselves" because this is the path of the saints. I know we would agree that in general this is true, but what do I tell me frineds who in fact were molested by a priest? That is was their fault? No. For someone who has a healthy and "balanced" self-esteem, distinguished from pride, it is often correct to take other's sins upon one's self. However, for the fragile, this is a recipe for disaster.

Children are not raped to soften their hearts. If a priest is just a jerk, that is one thing, but some evils are not the fault of the victims, esp with the case of kids.

Daniel, I don't think you would say that evil upon kids is their own fault, but we must remmeber that most of the reasons why kids become adults and do not go to Church or pray is because of what happened to them as kids. Not everyone was molested, of course, but the childhood impressions are very very powerful and hard to overcome in many cases.

matt

[Moses Anthony]

Effie,

For as long as I've been a Christian, just how one goes about ridding themselves of the "real" hurt caused by the sin of another, is something which I still deal with to this day.

I know as a Protestant that I memorized the passage where we're commanded to "put aside bitterness, anger wrath , malice, slander and abusive speech from your mouth..." the how of doing that is easy the hard part is focusing not on "my hurt", but on what Fr. Arseny so aptly demonstrated:loving all men equally. I would suppose that our Lord Jesus in his mercy would accomplish the rest. The hurt is still there to be felt in the deepest recesses of the heart; yet, the healing, through balm of the love of God, which we receive through forgiveness can only be wondered about, for surely, I myself cannot comprehend it!

Take that bit of whatever it is, with a grain of spiritual salt, for as I said, this is something I'm still working out in my own life.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Daniel Jeandet]

Im very sorry if my post has caused anyone any distress. It was a stupid post, written without thinking. Maybe I missed something earlier in the thread, I didnt think we were discussing abuse of children, I dont have anything to say about that. Is that what this thread is about? I thought it was priests who had too much money or something. Forgive me Matt, I dont think children are to blame for being abused, I didnt mean that, Im sorry.

When people say they dont believe in Church or God because of the bad priests, I just assume this is an excuse, because it is an excuse I have used for myself to avoid Church. I should not make that assumption.

It seems to me, and this may offend some people, that to become bitter and despair over the Church because of these scandals is far more of a scandal than an avaricious priest. What I mean is that although people may leave the Church because some of the priests are bad, the fact that the faithful remain unperturbed and continue to go about in peace, rejoicing and giving thanks for life, trusting that God allows these things and they fulfill his will (as it says in our prayers and scriptures), the witness of these fearless souls will draw those weak ones back when they see that even scandals and evils cannot stop us from being healed and free and trusting our Saviour.

Effie, maybe you were being sarcastic, but is it really a terrific thing to have endless chat shows about the church on television? Sounds like a nightmare to me. Im glad we dont have that where I live. I would hate to know what priests Ive never met were up to. Is this good? Turn off the television and stop reading newspapers. Become ignorent of all this secong hand reality and dont talk about it to anyone. Thats my advice. If it is our priest, the one we confess to or celebrates the services we attend, then fair enough, we can be concerned about his conduct. If it is not our preist, why do we even know about him? Is that a reasonable question? Im not sure.

I hope I dont sound proud and cold and mean about your problems, but thats what I am like, so its hard to avoid. I really do sympathise, We have our own stories of scandal but we dont have the temptation of watching television shows about them.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

The question is how are we to react to this or deal with it as Orthodox Christians? How would our Lord have us deal with this?

What James A Anthony points out in his post # 272 is very important. The sin of others is one of the most important issues we deal with nowadays for it touches each of us in the deepest way. The sin of others causes distress to us & then hurt. So it is not a theoretical issue but immediately real & touches all in the Church of every age & state.

In this there seem to be two extremes to avoid. One is just trying to sweep everything under the rug- the other is to be judgemental & overly harsh. To say it briefly- the main temptation for us is that in our assessment of what others do & what should be done about this- it is easy to become selfish precisely because we have felt hurt by what others do.

We know that our life is one of taking up our cross & following Christ. What does this mean in regard to the hurt we experience from the sin & scandal around us? The hurt & pain cannot go away but this must not become a selfish pain that blames others. If this pain has compassion & humility in it we are on the right path for this involves taking up one's cross in regards to others' sin. But if our pain is lacking these things it is in danger of becoming human condemnation. Then without noticing it we pull down instead of building up the Church. We fall into the spirit of disturbance which thinks that the more critical we are the better. And lastly we are no longer in the realm of faith but rather in the midst of a very human effort to try to get rid of hurt & pain.

Trying to deal with & heal sin as Christ would have it is one thing. Sin & abusive behaviour need to be dealt with. But we must be very careful that in dealing with sin we are not in reality just trying to avoid the hurt that comes in regards to others' sins.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Bp. Ioan (Lightoller)]

This is a rather delicate subject at least for me as I am an abuse survivor. Luckily the sexual abuse part of it was not at the hands of priests. However doesn't it say someplace in the bible that there should be dire circumstances for those who scandalize little ones (sorry, don't have my KJV directly to hand at the moment)? Surely sexual abuse is high on that list.

<<but>>

Why on earth, Fr. Raphael,should a little child be obliged to endure the hurt caused by someone else's sins? I am a sinner like everyone else, but I certainly would not want someone to suffer because of them. But this is just me, Father.

However, not only do I have to deal with the hurt caused by those who abused me as a child, but I had to endure the pain caused knowing that my spiritual father at the time was tried and convicted of numberous counts of erm, "conduct unbecoming" as they say in the military. This is something I would not wish on anyone.

[nurse-aid]

Love is paitient...love is kind...endure everything....We just do NOT reach that PICK of Love...it is very hard...and only then we can carry on EVERYTHING....That is WHY Martyrs were able....

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Bp. Ioan,
Welcome to monachos!
You wrote:


Why on earth, Fr. Raphael,should a little child be obliged to endure the hurt caused by someone else's sins? I am a sinner like everyone else, but I certainly would not want someone to suffer because of them. But this is just me, Father.

Forgive me. I'm not sure why this was brought up as the subject of the thread was not clergymen accused of child abuse.
http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
But if such a terrible thing ocurred why certainly the clergymen must be held to account- both in terms of an ecclesiastical & a civil court.

The Bible verse referred to is a warning for each of us (not only clergy) not to be the cause of stumbling for others. I don't think this verse really addresses the issue at hand as its focus is not about the hurt we suffer from others' sins. Rather the focus is the other way around I would say: As someone once said, "The Gospel isn't about you not doing something to me. It's about me not doing something to you."

As for the things we endure in this life. Well we suffer the things you mention and much more. And from an assortment of people so numerous it seems pointless to categorise. But what as Orthodox Christians are we to do about this?

Here other verses from Scripture come into play- about forgiveness mainly. About not letting selfishness & pride come into play when dealing with others' sinfulness.

We all have suffered & many from things too terrible to mention openly in a forum like this. Due to the brokeness of our times this suffering is no longer the preserve of only the few. For anything we experience it seems there is always someone else who went through worse. So what are we to do with all of this hurt?

We must first go to Christ and try to heal what is broken in ourselves by following what He tells us in the Gospel. Thankfully what He says is quite clear- to forgive. Notice He does not say anything about the pain going away or that Christianity is a way of getting rid of hurt. Rather what Christ says is the way so that this hurt does not gnaw away at us & twist us into monstrous shapes. In other words what Christ says is true- His is the way to defeat death inside of us- in fact it is the only way.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Effie Ganatsios]

The following is from “ Excerpts from Paternal Counsels, Vol. I and II”
by St. Philotheos Zervakos


“The majority of hierarchs and priests see to it that their golden altars, vestments and cassocks shine, but not their works. I am not saying that the hierarch or priest should be filthy, unclean, and ragged—far from it! He should be seemly and clean, as a minister, servant, and representative of the Heavenly King, yet he should not only have garments and boast in them, but also have God-pleasing and shining works. Strive to walk worthily of the vocation to which you were called. Do not pay attention to the majority, but to the few and the elect. Do not walk the wide and spacious road which leads to perdition, but the narrow and sorrowful one, which few walk and which leads to life. In this way you will please God and the angels, and benefit yourself and our brother Christians as well....
But my soul in the last moment of my life is very sad and pained, seeing the mournful condition of the Church and her shepherds, who aside from few exceptions, aside from becoming light with their good works, became darkness and cause for the name of our Heavenly Father to be blasphemed in the gentiles.
I believe and hope that the founder of the Church and Ruler of peace shall crush them as the vessels of a potter, while His Church, which He sanctified through His all immaculate blood, He shall preserve from the danger of the flood.
While I am departing in peace, you be saved, as wise and prudent ones from the present wicked and corrupt generation. Strive to find a virtuous and discerning spiritual father, and follow his counsels. Pray and ask God to enlighten to not be deceived. And do not stray either to the right nor to the left, but walk upon the middle path, follow the straight and royal path. Walk upon the path of prudence and discernment, the path of the true Orthodox faith, of pure Christian love and hope, until you arrive in the calm and safe port of paradise and of eternal life, always having the most sweet Jesus Christ, the Deliverer and Saviour of our souls, and Your spiritual Father as a guide....
Everything that the all-wise Holy Apostles and the Godly-wise Fathers of our Holy Orthodox Church handed down to us, many of their successors today want to abolish and so dislodge the Church. However, they will be unable to do this, because the Lord will crush them like vessels of clay. And the few elect will be shaken, and few out of the few will remain unshaken. Let us force ourselves to remain faithful and unshaken in whatever we have received from the divine Apostles, the Holy Fathers, and the teachers of our Church ... do and write as much as you can, but today’s generation has eyes and sees not, ears and hears not... [Jer. 5:21; cf. Ezek. 12:2, Ps. 134:16-17, Mark 8:18]....
+ + +
Truly the evil of the present age has exceeded the evils and sins of all other ages, and every spiritual father with the fear of God and a conscience is in a difficult position when it comes to applying oikonomia to sinners who confess. In the present wicked generation the spiritual father ought to use oikonomia, for if he uses strictness, either none of those who confess, or few and far between, will be found worthy of receiving communion. The greatest attention and discernment is demanded of the spiritual father, as well as zealous prayer to the Heavenly God and Father to enlighten him as to how he is to exercise oikonomia. According to the divine Gregory, he must "use oikonomia but not transgress." If he is going to transgress, it is preferable that he not hear confessions, so that he may not hear people saying, "physician, heal thyself" [Luke 4:23]....
The lamentable condition of people today is due on the one hand to the lack of virtuous, wise, discerning, God-fearing, pious, and experienced spiritual fathers, and on the other hand to the existence of spiritual fathers lacking fear of God and every virtue, ignorant, inexperienced, and in some cases impious, unbelieving and corrupt. One should not expect anything other than the mercy of the all-good God to send out capable and chosen men into His mystical vineyard or the coming sword to cleanse the earth from her iniquities....”

The words of the above saint are very harsh but they also give us hope. He says “Do not pay attention to the majority, but to the few and the elect”. I believe that the majority of priests are good and faithful servants - this present crisis might be just what is needed to weed out those that have chosen not to “walk the path of prudence and discernment, the path of the true Orthodox faith, of pure Christian love and hope”.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Father Raphaels’s

Post Number: 454



“In any case I think what is most important to keep in mind even in the midst of certain verifiable abuses is that as Edward says the Church is not defined by the sin of its members. Rather the Church is defined by the Life & grace of Christ that the faithful share in. During events that really are distressing it is easy to forget this & that the good in the faithful who surround us is often more invisible than their sin. Life in the Church is always a careful balancing act.”

Post no. 455
“But I would say in my experience that the problem with both attitudes is simple lack of faith- not faith in the sense of accepting certain doctrines, but faith as a lived out experience: of going forward like Abraham in uncertain conditions & of learning to put ourselves into God's hands amidst the turmoil of this life. And I would say- again from experience- that this is where most people in the Church stand or fall (clergy included). In other words, whether a person is simple or educated, old or young, the main thing needed nowadays is to continue going forward towards Christ not letting anything get in the way especially the sins of others.”

Father Raphael, a poll was taken today and it was found that 68% of the Greek people considered the Church to be corrupt and only 28% had the opposite opinion. A street poll however revealed the following : most people agreed that serious problems existed in the Church but that the real Church was not it’s priests and bishops but the people themselves. They also said that these latest scandals have not affected their faith.

You say that the main thing needed today is to continue going forward, putting ourselves in God’s hands and not letting the sins of others get in our way. Thank you for these words. I see that letting the shortcomings of other people stand between me and Christ is exactly what I’ve been doing. I know my own shortcomings but how arrogant of me to presume to know someone else’s. Daniel said that we really know only our own priest and not priests that we have heard or read about. This is so true.

This forum certainly negates the need for psychological help – (I wanted to insert a smiling smiley here but don’t know how!!!).

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Daniel Jeandet
Community Member

Post Number: 30

Daniel, you say “Effie, maybe you were being sarcastic, but is it really a terrific thing to have endless chat shows about the church on television?”

Daniel, I certainly wasn’t being sarcastic. This subject is too important to me and that’s why I started the thread.

Personally, I find that discussing something is always beneficial. Discussion allows you to clarify things in your own mind, listen to other people’s opinions and learn something each time. One example : After reading the posts in “Intercession of saints” I found that I was being too rigid and that some of my thoughts were not correct.

In this thread, some of the posts, especially those of Father Raphael, have helped me tremendously.

Daniel, in my opinion, these TV chat shows are beneficial because we are able to hear both sides of this conflict. The news is full of nothing else at the moment perhaps because 98% of the Greek population is officially Greek Orthodox and our religion is very important to us. There was even a debate in Parliament yesterday concerning this matter.

I don’t consider you “proud and cold and mean”. I think you’re a very honest person and I appreciate that.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Effie,

Thanks for the very powerful words from that light of the Church, Fr Philotheos Zervakos.


a poll was taken today and it was found that 68% of the Greek people considered the Church to be corrupt and only 28% had the opposite opinion.

Certainly 100% of us are corrupt in terms of sin. But I think it is so important to see that the Church is Christ's grace working among its people. Otherwise we begin defining the Church by the sin of its members which is not only mistaken theologically; it also is what leads to bitterness & frustration.

Although it is a very fine line that we will constantly fall over, there is a difference between the prophetic pain of Fr Philotheos & worldly condemnation. First of all someone like Fr Philotheos considers himself the worst among all sinners- and then he chastises from love. So this is the model for us I would say.


a street poll however revealed the following : most people agreed that serious problems existed in the Church but that the real Church was not it’s priests and bishops but the people themselves. They also said that these latest scandals have not affected their faith.

Often there is real truth contained in such popular feelings if you can read between the lines. Obviously the real Church is also made up of priest & bishops. But maybe the point is that clerical authority is often very worldly.

I remember how on one of my trips to the Holy Mt of Athos I met a married priest on the boat to one of the monasteries. He was very kind-hearted & we both had a nice talk together on the boat & while we walked together to the monastery. When we entered the church however I was quite shocked to see him go up to one of the stalls where a layman was & order him out so he could have the seat. But what most struck me was that the way this priest acted seemed natural to him- it didn't seem to be from a spirit of malevolence. It was just a normal thing to do- or so it seemed to me. So this was an issue of clerical authority and how it is manifested.

On the other hand among the priests raised in the Soviet Union authority at times was exhibited in a cold, official manner. Thankfully, at least in the Russian case, this is rapidly changing. But in both in the Russian & Greek case it seemed that clerical authority at times slipped into mirroring secular authority with its particular differences.

But the same also goes for us raised in the west. We also have our own version of worldly authority that is easy to slip into.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I just finished reading an article about the scandal in the Greek Church. How sad!
It is good however that Archbishop Christodoulos says that "the cleansing in the ranks of the church should proceed without compromise and with a sense of justice transparency, responsibility and decisiveness".

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Effie Ganatsios]

We have been expertly led like sheep to the slaughter!

The week long crisis in the Orthodox church has resulted in the preparation of a Bill in Parliament virtually stripping the Orthodox Church of most, if not all, of it’s authority over the Orthodox faithful.

Some of the measures :

No religious education in public schools.

The Orthodox religion will no longer be considered the religion of Greece.

Burial and cremation will be handled by the State. (I’ve been trying to figure out how this is going to work but haven’t come up with anything satisfactory yet).

Religious marriages will not be recognized, only civil marriages – one priest said that as civil marriages have been obligatory for some years this would, at least, save them some paperwork.

No religious oaths will be taken (not a bad thing because the Bible tells us that we shouldn’t do this anyway).

Priests will no longer be civil servants (in my opinion, this is not such a bad thing either but I can imagine the fury of the priests)

Proselytism will no longer be illegal in Greece (again this is not such a bad thing because various religions should be able to try and convert Orthodox Christians without the fear of going to gaol – not that any of these people ever did as far as I am aware).

There are various other measures that involve alterations to the Constitution of Greece that I didn’t fully understand while listening to this report last night so I can’t go into them although they are rousing quite a lot of argument.

2 scenarios come to mind.

Either the communist and left wing parties in Greece (PASOK, KKE who have nearly 48% of the vote) orchestrated the crisis - amply although unwillingly assisted by corrupt priests - OR they took advantage of what was happening and decided to go ahead with something they’ve wanted to do for quite some time.

Of course PASOK representatives (PASOK is the Socialist party which governed Greece for the last 20 years or so with the happy results we are all aware of) took great pains to reassure their voters that what they were doing would be to the ultimate advantage of the Church itself. Votes are such precious things it’s a shame to lose even one!

There is talk of a referendum but knowing what happened with the 3.5 million signatures the Church gathered to protest the new EU identity cards – not that anyone in authority took any notice of these protest signatures – I think it highly doubtful that any such referendum will ever take place.

So, my conclusion : If this Bill is passed in Parliament, Greece’s next God will be the New World Order with consumerism it’s ardent prophet.



One more thing : Knowing how the Church has supported and led the Greek people in the various political crises during the last 200 years I feel ashamed that I ever started this thread.

I’m aware that what is going to happen in Greece – it’s virtually certain that it will – is the normal state of affairs in most other countries but I can’t help but wonder what changes we will see in the next few years.

Effie