Changing jurisdictions

[Basil Shannon]

I know it would be wrong to shop for a jurisdiction, as heterodox shop for a denomination they enjoy attending, but is it wrong to leave one jurisdiction for another soley because you would like to attend a more traditional parish?

I have been advised that if the jurisdiction which received me into Orthodoxy is canonical, I would do better to humbly submit to that jurisdiction's guidance--it being more valuable to be faithful than setting oneself up as a judge of Orthodoxy. I see this point, but most say my jurisdiction has modernized a great deal, in fact, I have heard it called the most modern jurisdiction from other Orthodox bishops, although not to the point of being schismatic. I would feel more confident receiving spiritual direction from a traditional jurisdiction such as ROCOR. What would those here advise I do?

Thanks for any thoughts in advance.

Basil

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Basil,
It is my belief that in general God brings us to the parish wherein we are called to struggle. So the first parish where we found Christ & His Church should in general be the place we struggle to remain. There are exceptions to this but we must be careful that we do not fall into the temptation of looking for a 'better place' when we are already in the Church. In most cases the 'better place' is found within by leading as seriously as possible a life in Christ.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Dear Basil,

I'd pray on it before making any moves and I'd talk to my spiritual father.

I wouldn't leave if there are interpersonal reasons involved a.k.a. out of anger at anybody or anything. That's just running away from yourself as you can only come as close to Christ as you can to your worst enemy.

I wouldn't go out of judgment of the jurisdiction either. That's pride. Also "traditional" doesn't always mean better. It's the quality of Christ-based love and mercy that exists in the parish that defines it.

Whatever you do though, make sure you clear it with your spiritual father, your priest or your bishop. That's really important.

Good strength and God's love to you.

Anestis

[Eugene]

I really liked you phrase, Anestis:
"you can only come as close to Christ as you can to your worst enemy"
Absolutely true!

[Father Anthony]

Some of the responses to Basil's question about changing jurisdictions seem to me to miss some important aspects of this problem.

While God *may* lead one to the Church through a particular jurisdiction, I doubt that is a reason to remain - in and of itself.

Judgement of the jurisdiction being pride...I don't know if that's at all true, nor if it's even possible to "judge" a jurisdiction as one might judge another person. We must have discernment and we must judge the actions of others (not the hearts/motives of others) or we will likely fall into any and every possible sin.

Changing jurisdictions... if one finds that one is in - for example - a jurisdiction where it is common that fasting is not encouraged (if even mentioned); that Confession is not expected before receiving Holy Communion - or at any other time; that services are mangled by being shortened and modified, even at the whim of clergy - these are a few of the reasons one *should* - even *must* begin to look elsewhere.

There are many parishes that fit the above and worse descriptions. I would never expect an Orthodox Christian who is in such an environment to simply remain there, once having grown spiritually to be able to discern that these things are simply wrong: it's not enough to accept "Orthodox-Lite" simply because that's where one is at the moment.

Just some thoughts.

Fr. Anthony

[Eugene]

Just a word from my personal experience. It's really helpful for the spiritual growth to be in a good parish/jurisdiction and to have a good spiritual father. From the other hand, if one can't find or not able to join the "best" jurisdiction, it's not the end of the world. The fasting or frequent confession may not be encouraged in a parish, but nothing stops us from fasting and going to frequent confessions ouselves. Eventually, it's Christ who we come to meet in the Church and who teaches us. As long as the parish is in communion with the Orthodox Church, it's the same Christ that we get in communion with, and that is what really matters. But of course, if you can also get good spiritual directions and learn from the priest or people in the parish, that is always a good bonus.

One important thing to learn though is to be able to see and follow the will of God in our life, and this also applies to changing jurisdictions.

[Irene]

I have read sometimes that it is the lay person who, through speaking to the Priest, voicing concerns about changes in the Church, being totally ready with reasons why these are of concern, can bring the Church back on track.

I myself would be extremely dissapointed if my Church went the way of Basil's and if I was sure it was going the wrong way I would pray about it and probably leave. When you are trying hard to better yourself, learning the way of the teachings of the Church Fathers, for your Church and Priest to be easing up on the rules is not good and can't be right.

Basil, if you do end up going to a more traditional Church be aware how hard things could get, stick to it, don't swap back and forwards
if you like *this* about your new juristriction and *that* about your old one.

Father Averky wanted to leave his Slavonic speaking Church once many years ago (it is in one of his posts here) and go to a English speaking parish. He was talked out of changing by (I think) his Bishop or his Spiritual Father and he found that this was right and he appreciated learning the Slavonic and the richness of the language that was written especially for Church.

All you can do is pray and think long and hard about it and talk to the Clergy and get advice. Even if you say to your current Priest "Father I mean no disrespect but I am interested in attending a more traditional Church. I feel that, for me, this would be the right thing." State reasons that are important to you. Without anything that attacks or is personal, like saying "you are doing it all wrong." or something like that. See what he has to say about it. If he gave you a blessing to go, surely that would be a good thing, if he doesn't but you feel strongly have a lot of talks with the Priest of your favoured Church and tell him in a non-judgemental way how you feel about everything.

No Parish is perfect there is always something that we can find wrong with our own if we allow ourselves to. We can always find someone that we feel irritated by or feel compelled to judge unless we guard against this.

In Christ
irene

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Anthony,

You wrote: "While God *may* lead one to the Church through a particular jurisdiction, I doubt that is a reason to remain - in and of itself."

Once God leads us to His Holy Church surely it would only be in exceptional circumstances that we would leave the parish through which we came to the Church. This is the place in which God called us to lead our life in Christ- not just through those things immediately favourable to us- but also through those things which we must struggle with. Indeed it is through this struggle that we grow in patience & love - things which without, 'correct practice' is a temptation.

You have correctly outlined a number of issues- fasting, confession, services, etc- which should be of concern for our parish life. But why is it that we must leave our parish & search elsewhere if we do not find this in our parish? Certainly it is more proper to struggle within our parish humbly & patiently, prayerfully striving so that these very things become part of parish life, if indeed they are missing. Consider for example Mt Athos, where in the 1950s many monasteries were in desperate shape, spiritually & physically- yet through the patient & prayerful struggle of those who came after these monasteries were revived. So, I think that it is only in exceptional circumstances that one should leave the place that God led one to.

As a priest of a 'tradionalist' jurisdiction I would also say that it is our responsability to explain that many of our own people also do not fast, many rarely go to confession or receive the sacrament, many of our churches are almost empty during Vigils. Things much more serious than this are found among us. What do we say then when the 'honey-moon' wears off? "Struggle", we explain, "is essential to the Christian life." But if this is true (and certainly it is) then why did we not say this openly at first when the person was thinking of leaving their parish?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Moses Anthony]

The question was: would it be wrong to leave one jurisdiction for another soley because you would like to attend a more traditional parish?

If that is truly the basis for the change, my answer is, yes it would be wrong.

I came into Holy Orthodoxy through a Byzantine Rite parish, which closed when the priest was assigned elsewhere. The only parish of my jurisdiction left in the city, is Western Rite. Now while I really like the Byzantine Rite, and desire to help the struggling parish where I was chrismated, I remain in the jurisdiction which received me into the Faith, and submit to my priest and Bishop. Yes I miss the various aspects of the Byzantine Rite, the smell of incense in my clothes. And yes, there may come a point when I'll be back in such a parish, but for now it's worship in the Rite which St.Tikon laid the groundwork for many years ago.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Father Anthony]

Fr. Raphael wrote:

"Once God leads us to His Holy Church surely it would only be in exceptional circumstances that we would leave the parish through which we came to the Church."

That may have been due to simple logistics. I have recently received into our parish a woman whose introduction to the Church was in a mission in the area near where she lived. Due to circumstances she was not likely to find another Orthodox parish. Yet at that parish she was both emotionally abused by the Priest (who is yet to be disciplined by his jurisdiction, which admits the abuse took place) and sexually abused by a parishioner. An extreme and unusual situation, certainly, but it *did* occur.

"This is the place in which God called us to lead our life in Christ"

I don't believe that is any sense at all a general truth. Rather, God uses what is available - like in the case I mentioned above.

"You have correctly outlined a number of issues- fasting, confession, services, etc- which should be of concern for our parish life. But why is it that we must leave our parish & search elsewhere if we do not find this in our parish?"

For all the reasons that both of us are in a "Traditional" jurisdiction: these things are not optional...do you allow individuals to approach the Mysteries without fasting and Confession? Do you teach parishioners that the fasting practices of the Church are optional? Just two examples.

"Certainly it is more proper to struggle within our parish humbly & patiently, prayerfully striving so that these very things become part of parish life, if indeed they are missing."

The reality is that for many in the less-Traditional jurisdictions, these things are not only not available, but are ignored...even made fun of as "old-fashioned." In the city in which I live there are two very large such parishes in which people have been *refused* Confession, for example. One Priest told us at an Orthodox Clergy Association meeting, "We tried Confession in the XXX Church for a while, but it didn't work out." !!!!!!

"Consider for example Mt Athos, where in the 1950s many monasteries were in desperate shape, spiritually & physically- yet through the patient & prayerful struggle of those who came after these monasteries were revived."

I tend to think that the example of Mt. Athos in this matter is not applicable to - especially U.S. - Orthopraxis (or the absense of it) in parish life in much of the west.

"As a priest of a 'tradionalist' jurisdiction I would also say that it is our responsability to explain that many of our own people also do not fast, many rarely go to confession or receive the sacrament, many of our churches are almost empty during Vigils."

The difference is that we *offer* and *encourage* these things. We do not *refuse* or *discourage* them. Perhaps you are not familiar with some of the realities of life in many of the parishes in America. I am. I can testify from experience that there are some frightening examples of deterioration in praxis.

"Things much more serious than this are found among us. What do we say then when the 'honey-moon' wears off? "Struggle", we explain, "is essential to the Christian life." But if this is true (and certainly it is) then why did we not say this openly at first when the person was thinking of leaving their parish?"

The key is that we *must* say it openly at first. I do. Other Priests I know do. If we as Priests accept an individual into our parish - someone who is looking for a more complete life in the Church with the support of the parish community - but do not make it clear that no place is a utopia, that we do the best we can with God's Grace - then we fail also.

But I would never suggest to someone who is being denied some of the very basic aspects of Christian life - or for whom it is being made inappropriately difficult to experience it - that they remain in that circumstance.

Someone mentioned in this thread that Fr. Averky had once considered leaving his "Slavonic" jurisdiction. Fr. Averky was my assistant pastor before returning to full-time life in the monastery at Jordanville. He often couselled those who found themselves in the kind of situations I have described - that they should not remain where they are denied these things, or where a sort of smorgasbord-Orthodoxy is practiced. Yet he always cautioned them to be aware that the struggle goes on and they must not expect to find a "perfect" parish or jurisdiction.

Fr. Anthony

[Basil Shannon]

Bless Fathers.

You have both done a fine job of showing both sides of this issue and given me much to think about. I am very grateful.

I guess the question is, "Does my parish or priest deny me those things that are essential to my growth in Christ?" I don't know. My priest does mention the fasts and encourage them. My priest will allow weekly confession if someone requests it. My priest may abbreviate the services, at least this is what I've heard, but not having experienced much else, I'm not sure exactly what is being left out.

The issue which most makes me desire a more traditional parish is that my priest doesn't seem to utilize the Church fathers in his counsel, nor does he preach about their lives in his homilies, and sometimes it seems to me, although I am not an expert on the fathers, to give advise that is different than what the fathers have taught. He seems to over-emphasize the fact that we are not legalistic to the point of injuring my desire to struggle in certain areas, but this is probably more my failing than his. He teaches and counsels almost entirely from a pyschological perspective, rather than from Church tradition--he has even criticised people beating themselves up too much about their sins. I know we shouldn't despair in our sins, but to see ourselves as the "chief of sinners" it seems we would have to mourn our sin more than he indicates.

Forgive me. These things seem petty, but collectively I struggle with them. Also I have a wife and two children, with another on the way. I want them to experience the fulness of Orthodoxy, but I'm aware a utopian parish does not exist anywhere in the Church Militant.

I don't think the above will change your advice, but it's a bit more background information on my particular circumstance.

Kissing your right hands.

Basil

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Anthony,

Thank you for your post which caused me to think over what I had already written.
I would submit that what is written above is the teaching of the Church: "It is my belief that in general God brings us to the parish wherein we are called to struggle. So the first parish where we found Christ & His Church should in general be the place we struggle to remain. There are exceptions to this but we must be careful that we do not fall into the temptation of looking for a 'better place' when we are already in the Church. In most cases the 'better place' is found within by leading as seriously as possible a life in Christ."
This teaching which is made most explicit for the married & monastic life, but which also applies to our parish family, ensures that we struggle & endure where we are. It acknowledges that God led us to the place we are & that we are thankful for this. It also helps avoid the most common temptation we face in our spiritual life- to run away when we meet adversity. In other words the teaching about how we are members of Christ's Church through our parish family directly relates to how an essential aspect of our life in Christ is to take up our Cross & follow Him. Also in terms of the actual question before us, it is crucial for us to understand that many problems within the Church are in fact solved through our taking up our own cross; but this is in God's way & time, not ours'.

About changing jurisdictions I would agree that if a priest was refusing to allow confession, fasting, etc this would be very serious grounds for considering a change of parish. But this does not seem to be the situation of the person asking the question about leaving.

To return to the general point however- if there are very serious problems within a parish this does not necessarily mean one has to go to a parish which is part of a 'traditional' jurisdiction. There are many other things which make a particular parish one's home & these should be taken into account also. For example I have met older people from a certain parish of our church who were in that parish because at one time a certain saintly bishop presided there-in fact it had little to do with the fact of 'tradition' since other parishes at the time were not so different in that respect. Conversely when a certain priest many years later in his ungodly zeal began 'reforming' the parish, he drove most of these older people away to other Orthodox churches in other jurisdictions. So, many times the godly & ungodly things which draw or repel us from a certain parish are much more subtle than we think. They go far beyond what the priest asks to the spirit which the whole parish encourages.

The question of positive change within Orthodoxy as a whole is of course an on-going discussion. It is my feeling that things have greatly improved in 20 years or more, even though problems still remain. Are there actually parishes in which the priest forbids confession & fasting? Perhaps- but certainly this is very rare. On the other hand it is no great secret about the problems 'tradionalists' face. Someone who comes to our churches hoping for the best & then encountering slackness, in-fighting, lack of commitment to the use of liturgical English, etc, etc, feels a devastation not much off-set by the thought that "at least it's better than where I came from." The time comes when one forgets the details about where one came from and then current problems stand out very painfully. So there is no escaping this struggle. And I would submit from experience, that parishioners do not feel this devastation less because they can fast whereas before they could not.

We are still talking about Christ's Church no matter what problems there are- & so the Holy Spirit dwelling within good hearts is still free to act & change things for the better. I say this only because in our criticisms at times we act as if there is no difference between being in the Church with all of its human problems & being in the world. But in fact there is a huge difference if we are in the place where Grace abides. So our main focus I believe should be to struggle where we are unless human factors themselves prevent this & then this is one of the exceptions that may in fact justify leaving one's place.

Your co-celebrant & brother in Christ- Fr Raphael

[Anestis Jordanoglou]

Dear Basil,

I'm coming from my own experience. My spiritual father is here at the Seminary where I work. He's a tremendous guy. He loves me and always has my back, gives me advise whenever I see him but he doesn't seem to like giving confession. I'm not sure why but that's how it is. It's an interesting phenomenon. I love him to death though and wouldn't have anyone else as a spiritual father. So I asked a favor from him, I asked if I could go to confession with another priest with his blessing. So I go to confession with another priest who worked it out with my spiritual father.

I get advise from both and somehow they complement each other. I love confession and the accountability and discipline that comes from it.

Regarding the Church Fathers, take a course over the net with the Antiochians. Talk with other priests who are more adept in the field. You'll find the answers you are looking for if you search. Seek ye first right?

I understand where you're at. I've been there.

Churches are about love and relationships, working together as the Body of Christ, loving each other as He loves us. I think that's what Fr. Raphael is ultimately talking about - love and the struggle of loving and how Christ is there in our struggle offering Himself all the time, in the Sacraments, in our studies, in Scripture, in all those things. It's about the love that sees the strengths and beauty of others, even in their weakness and a recognition of the depth of our own weakness.

I understand where Fr. Anthony is coming regarding that young girl. What happened there is criminal and actually should be prosecuted.

Regarding despair, there's this great series of books that I guess, it's my understanding, that novices read when they enter into monasteries on Athos. They are called the Evergetina. They are a series of stories from the Fathers that illustrate a particular lesson that one should follow in the development of a spiritual life. The very first lesson is about despair and how one should not do so when one sins. Maybe this is what our priest is talking about.

I think what you might be talking about is the sadness one feels when one is close to Christ, a sort of unworthiness that comes from the recognition of our weakness. The Fathers seem to couple the enormity of their sins God's love and compassion. Hence, hope even in moments of deep remorse.

A great prayerbook with prayers from the Fathers which indicate this is called "Patristic Prayers" by Bishop Nicholas Papanikolaou, an amazing monk/Bishop who now resides in Athens. You'd like it, I think. The Holy Cross Press prints it here at the seminary where I work.

Got to run.

God bless you.

Anesti