To what extent does sin justify leaving parish or jurisdiction?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear brothers & sisters,

I have the following question after the last posting on this board. It is a question that often pre-occupies me and I feel with the community I could gain more insight.

Many of us have at different points in our lives left parish or even jurisdiction. (Please I do not include in this question the previously raised issue of leaving the Church). To what extent (if ever) is this justifiable, due to the perceived sins and weaknesses of others, from a true Orthodox perspective? This involves the question of what we should always stay and struggle thru.

How could we concisely & in the language of the Holy Frs (of course also in they way they think) express what justifies leaving?

In Christ- Fr R

[Daniel Jeandet]

Father Raphael,

I dont know, but maybe if there is a lack of repentance we might look for another parish. Where people dont forgive each other, the end of a community is close anyway. Saint Maximus says that we are commanded simply to give and recieve mercy.

[Melissa]

Father Raphael,

The only time I've left a parish is when I've moved away, and that was before I became Orthodox. So as I try to think about it from an Orthodox perspective as best I can, it seems that if, with spiritual direction to help my weak powers of discernment, my spiritual father felt my soul was being threatened by what was happening in the liturgy or with the priest, that could be a reason to leave a parish.

This was a good question to raise.
Melissa

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Melissa,

Yes I was also thinking somewhat along the same lines. After all it is sin that we face; in ourselves & others. The Holy Frs tell us to struggle with sin & to endure (that was the starting point for raising this question in fact) and to be patient in regards to others. Many times in a parish I have seen those who stayed and endured grow spiritually while those who left- well it's tragic really- often they go from fall to falling away from the Faith itself.

On the other hand there are times when it is proper to leave one's place of worship. Here the advice & blessing of a spiritual father is invaluable- no argument there. Of course it is difficult to speak in generalities; St Isaac the Syrian left his episcopal see due to the people not caring about the things of God; Theophan the Recluse because of his attraction to a life of reclusion. Then last night I was reading about the Grand Duchess Elizabeth: after the murder of her husband she truly put aside all earthly things to serve God & country; from a palace she went to the most moving simplicity & self-sacrifice.
Perhaps then it is simply the difference between leaving one's place out of self-will or in order to be faithful to God. And to see the difference discernment is needed.

In Christ- Fr R

[Melissa]

Dear Father Raphael,

How nicely you summed it up for me - "Perhaps then it is simply the difference between leaving one's place out of self-will or in order to be faithful to God. And to see the difference discernment is needed."

So often our faith can be simply stated, and simply lived. I would like to be more faithful, and less willful. Thank you for your help.

Melissa

[Lawrence]

It may be a bit simplistic but isn't leaving a parish much like running away from home?

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear Lawrence,Melissa, Fr. Raphael, Daniel J.

It doesn't seem to me that leaving a parish is like running away from home. It would depend a lot on the motivations of the person leaving; and on what is happening in "that place"

Even Jesus as stated in the Gospel, shook the sands from His feet when He left Nazareth and went on to "His Father's Business" where He was led by the Holy Spirit on His life's mission.

Discernment is truly necessary, isn't it? And, we may ask, as we are often asking question here at Monachos: What is discernment? And How is a person to truly discern the next step to be taken in his/her spiritual life?

Marie Duquette

[Fr Averky]

Father Rafael,

As I recall during the early sixties when clergy, individuals or entire parishes were leaving their bishops, it was for one major reason alone: Ecumenism.

Until Vatican II, whose ripple effects are still being felt throughout the entire Christian world, Orthodoxy was much more cohesive.

In this country, the Russian Orthodox church Outside of Russia served with all Orthodx chiurches, except the Moscow Patriarchate because of its enslavement to the godless authorities.

There was no question about Old Calendar or New Calendar, in fact, Metropolitan Anastassy, First Hierarch of the Church Abroad was invited to b a co-consecrator of a Greek bishop to be sent to Australia.The Church Abroad was invited to join SCOBA, but for complex internal reasons, it resigned.

Unfortunately, the early 1960's changed all that as more and more churches were swept up into the enthusiasm of trying to wish old problems causing separation away. as Patriarch Athenagores said, "The sun of Love will melt away all our differences." The Thyateira Confesion stated that the Orthodox Church recognized as valid the sacraments of the Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Old Catholics and Anglicans, and that "the Church has walls, but no doors," or perhaps "the Church has doors but no walls." Atthe time, no one could figure out what these words meant-in any order. It happily has not been seen or heard from for almost thirty years.

Soon, Orthodox bishops were praying with Rabbis and prelates, all in a hope that maybe some good would ome it, and it never has.

The Sacred Canons tell us uhat when a monk sees that his abbot, or that a priest sees his bishop teaching "a new gospel, that is, expressing ideas that are not Orthodox, he is bound to go to him and make known his grievance three times, if the uperior does not repent, then that person is bound to leave him.

Invoking that idea, many piests and lay people became disturbed at what they considered to be compromise and the betrayal of true Orthodoxy. Many were received by the Church Abroad, which steadfastly and categorically refused to particiapate in the Ecumenical madness, and her First Hierarch, Met. Philaret, wrote two humble but firm "Sorrowful Epistles" To Patriarch Athenagoras and Archbishop Iakovos, begging them to no go down the path they were taking.

As far as I know, the main justifucatioin to leave a parish and especiallhy ajurisdiction is heresy.

Of course, when situations arise in a given parish where there is dissension and mistrust, individuals or families have the right to look for another spiritual home. This however does not mean that people can leave in a huff because they can't have their way or because the priest will not recgonize their great worth.Such people end up floating around, sometimes leave and are never heard from again.

A parish is the place where we along with a priest and like-minded Orthodox Christians gatheer for the "liturgia," the public worship of the Church. Petty problems and arguements, as in any family, are part of Christian parish life. As to sin, if someone one knows that something immoral or illegal is going on, he must tell Church authorities and leave that place at once.

As to changing jurisdictions I would say only in matters of faith, or if you are more conservative and traditional, or perehaps, vice-versa.

These are my thoughts on the matter, Father Raphel.

Fr. A.

[Marie-Duquette]

Dear Father Averky,
Peace!
I don't understand what you mean by the term:

"The main justification for leaving a jurisdiction or a parish, is heresy"

How can a person judge a jurisdiction or another person of heresy. Heresy for some persons is seen EVERYWGERE; and, for others not at all.

These are SERIOUS judgments! What is more important the "Soul" of a person or all this talk about heresy? There is so much ignorance among Orthodox Christians and so-called converts, that talk of heresy just can drive a person crazy.

where is the "gentle, compassionate teaching of Jesus, the Christ as seen in the Gospels?

with respect and prayer, Marie Duquette

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky & Marie,

Yes of course when it comes to essential matters of the Faith this can have very serious implications for us. But there are serious mistakes, bad tendencies, things we try to live with & make the best out of; at what point do things actually become truly heretical? Just a personal sense of things: if a synod of bishops openly proclaims something heretical then this is to the spiritual death of that church if not repented of. Otherwise as pointed out, yes we wipe the dust from our feet, trying to follow Christ's example.

Again- thankyou for the good insights- they help to sort things out,
In Christ- Fr R

[Lawrence]

I didn't mean to imply that one should never run away from home but to magnify the importance of sober judgement with a proper plan of recourse and action that need to be enacted.

As for as discernment, please allow me to define the term first. Discernment or Discrimination, diakrisis, is defined as "a spiritual gift permitting one to discriminate between the types of thought that enter into one's mind, to assess them accurately and to treat them accordingly. Through this gift one gains 'discernment of spirits' - that is, the ability to distinguish between the thoughts or visions inspired by God and the suggestion or fantasies coming from the devil. It is a kin of eye or lantern of the soul by which man finds his way along the spiritual path without falling into extremes; thus it includes the idea of discretion."

-from the Glossary of The Philokalia Vol. I

Now if I may humbly submit my understanding of recieving discernment. Since discernment is a gift from God we must communicate with God through prayer, both private and corporate, and the reading of the Gospel and the Lives of the Saints. Prayer if I may say is our expression of our desire to be in communion with God. The Gospel is the Word of God given to us, or if you will the Letter written to awaken our reasoning and direct us to God. The Lives of the Saints are the example of those who have received the Grace of Communion and thus discernment.

Although the above reads like a statement it is just as much a question and also a request for clarification.

In Christ,

Lawrence

[Fr Averky]

Marie,

Read Fr. Raphael's post no. 26. When I was speaking of heresy, I gave a good example of what (I meant; as Father says, if a person attends a parish where his priest begins openly to give communion to Roman Catholics and Nestorians, he is bound to go to the priest and protest. And if the priest says, "We have to live the Christianity of the gentle, compassionate Jesus; these people are Christians too." Well, Marie, I know of such cases, and I know people who went to another parish after writing a letter to the local bishop.

What are we to think when an Orthodox hierarch says that the Catholic Church and the Orthodxx Churches are "sister Churches, two lungs of the same body?" Consider an Orthodox hierarch attending an Ecumjejhical prayer service at a Methodist Chrch fully vested and gives the sermon?

Now, of course the Zealots would say that when this was done, the man lost the grace of his episcopacy. No, but if the Chiurch was as it should be, a bishop would be questioined about this action, and if he went because he hoped it might improve inter Church relatioins, then he would be reprimanded and perhaps suspended for a time. But if he said that he attended because the love of God and the Holy Spirit dwell everywhere and that these Churches are just different branches of the One Church, then he would have fallen into herersy and would have to either repent or be deposed. There is a Sacred Canon which states that if a bishop or a presbyter prays with heretics, let him be deposed. Marie, there are millions of Orthodox Christians who know that Ecumenism is the greates heresy of all because it says that the one true church is made up of all churches, and the ecumenical movement is an attempt started by Protestants to create a "Super Church" and now are including non-Christians in its ranks. And to others, it seems like a very nice idea. It is not a question of "nice," it is a question of Truth.

What can be said when the Patriarch of one of the most ancient Orthodox sees stated at a WCC meeting that it must be accepted by all that Mohammed was indeed a prophet of God? Is such an utterance in keeping with the truth of Orthodoxy/ Don't you think that it is a heretical statement?

Marie, you are right, "heresy" is a word too often used and too little understood. Someone recently took me to task because they considered that I had insulted the head of their Chuirch. I later pointed out that if he read my post again, he would see that I did not name his archpastor, and lovingly did not condemn or judge him but made every thing I could to cover him.

In giving the condition of heresy, I realkly ment what I said. Read on. In every jurisdiction, in every parish, in every monastery in the entire Orthodox Chuirch there are problems, canonical irregularities, personal pfoblems, politcal manchinations, and all of this is the result of weak and sinful mankind. There is no perfect Church or bishop or prsest from the human aspect, but it is is Divine and pure in itself as the Church which Jesus Christ fouinded. Thuis, dear Marie, my condition for leaving is limited only to a situation where a prirst or hierarch is no longer "rightly dividing the word of truth."

It does not do well for an Orthodox Christian to look at matters of the Church with personal and emotional values.

Forgive me, but questions like these are driving me away from Monachos. It takes me a very long time to type an answert due to my lack of coordination, and I do not simply put down the first thought that comes to my head. I try to be very careful with what I say, and often try to back up my thoughts with those who are much more holy and who have far more knowledge than . I cannot take into consideration as to whether or not what I might say is "nice or not," which is what so many people in our American society want to do; No matter what we see that is wrong or evil, we don't want to react to it in a negative manner, we have to be nice. Frankly, I do not recognize those kind of Orthodox who want a warm and fuzzy, happy little Church. The Church is a spiritual battleground and we are fighting not only the devil, but the world around us. If people want to appoach Orthodoxy with their own opinions and preferences, then they will answer to God-I do not have that luxury, and I will answer to God if I do notanswer honestly and from what I have been taught by great teachers.

I am utterly exhausted after giving answers to people from my heart, gathered from my years as a monk and a priest,not only by reading, but having lived with wise and educated bishops, who brought the treasure of their lives from Imperial
Russia.

[Fr Averky]

For some reason the last post suddenly froze.
Also, I have had wonderful experiences of my own, and have had the blessing to have known so many people who played a part in the early formation of so many of us who converted in the sixties.

I am not bragging in what I have just said, but am pointing out that I would think that laypeople, either new to the Church, or not very educated in the Church, sould give a little more respect and credence to people like Fr. 'Raphael and myself and the many other good priests who post here There are those who ask a question and then counter with what they "prefer"or what they think is their own priority and from what knowledge-how they feel? Just recently the head of our Church said, "What a rebellious and disobedient time we live in; the people do not obey their priests, the priests do not obey the bishops, and many of the bishops do not obey the Church. What will become of us?

Remember, when a person decides what he wants to when it comes to the teaching and the life of the Orthodox Church, he will bear full responsibility for his self-will before God. If any among you prefer to have you own ideas and interpretations of how the Church should be-there are thousands of groups who will welcome you; they are known as Protestants.

I am far more ill than any of you might imagine, and Matthew also gets after me from time to time for not being nice enough, but Orthodoxy is my life, and I cannot compromise what I believe. I am beginning to prepare for my death, and it is to God that I will answer for my words, good and bad.

Proud and sinful

Averky

[Moses Anthony]

Dear marie,

I know you asked the question of Fr. Averky, but please allow to attempt to answer, "The main justification for leaving a jurisdiction of paris is heresy"."

A home is the first place where we should learn about love and community, running away from home cuts us off from that initial unconditional acceptance. When we repent, renounce sin, the world and the devil, are baptized and chrismated, we spiritually come home to the life(the love, unconditional acceptance, purpose and meaning)from which we were estranged. We have truly returned home to the Great Shepherd of our souls.

Currently a Protestant denomination is in turmoil, and a number of the churches here are considering leaving the jurisdiction of the Church, which they believe has so flagrantly violated Holy Scripture(committed heresy) by ordaining an openly homosexual bishop.

As has been stated so ably before, we either leave because of pride, or we perceive through the grace of the Holy Spirit, that leaving is at that time the will of God -under which would fall heresy.

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear James,

Is that a slip in your first point, "the main justification for leaving A JURISDICTION OF PARIS is heresy"?! I don't believe that is how FR A put it but it does cause a smile anyway.

More seriously; when I first began the question of this thread I had no thought of it applying to denominations outside of the Church. Obviously if one were to know better one should without the slighest doubt leave even without 'flagrant' problems such as you mention. After all these are only symptoms of the deeper problem of Christianity without the Church.

In the love of Christ- Fr R

[OrthodoxLearner]

I left my parish because I am Converting to Orthodoxy =0)

In Christ
OL

[Arsenios]

OL writes:

"I left my parish because I am Converting to Orthodoxy..."

Now THAT, I submit, is an equally good reason for leaving one's parish to its priest's bare headed teaching of heresy in the temple, but on the other hand, it is indeed exactly that...

[geo] Arsenios

[M. Rallis]

Dear all, and especially Father Averky:

To the extent that the ecumenical movenment contains an implied acknowledgment that the current situation in the non-Orthodox Christian world is flawed, and in need of healing, then is there not some responsibility on the part of Christ's Church (Holy Orthodoxy) to provide a witness to soul's in search of what is true and real? Now in asking this question, I certainly don't suscribe to the "branch theory" or any other suggestion that Orthodoxy has not remained the One, Holy, Cahtolic, and Apostolic Church. But, dare we not be a witness to truth to those seeking something fuller than what currently exists in the world of the non-Orthodox? Is there not an Orthodox view of a true ecumenism that springs from the liturgical prayer: "Having prayed for the unity of the Faith, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us entrust ourselves and each other, and all our life to Christ our God." Does this Trinitarian Communion that we pray for, not extend to the whole of the "ecumene"?

[Melissa]

Dear Father Averky,

I don't want you to be nice to us (in the nicey-nice way). I want the Truth, even if I don't always like to hear it because it convicts me in some way (as it usually does). I always try to reflect on and pray about my contrary attitude or feelings and have found that what you tell me is true. Sometimes I find it in words addressed to me, and sometimes in the words addressed to others, but it's always there. And I don't always feel/think contrary to what you say. Most often I only feel badly because I recognize that no matter how much I've tried, I've continued to fail to live as faithfully as I say I want to. So your clarity about Orthodoxy is actually an encourager to me, to get up and try again to fight the holy battle.

I guess I believe you are never wrong about the things that affect my soul - because if I let myself be humble enough, there is always something that applies to me. I am very proud and sinful.

I'm not trying to say you have to be perfect, only that I've been blessed by God to have your example to learn from, and appreciate it. And also the other priests/monks and wise people who contribute here, and/or are praying for us.

I have some understanding of your health issues, Father, and pray for you.
Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear Michael,

Of course, we should take every opportunity to witness for our precious Orthodoxy, and when the original Orthodox representatives first engaged in ecumenical meetings, that was their firm intention. However, over the years, there was no longer much witnessing, but more and more full participation. By the sixties and seventies, the Orthodox were signing documents officially put out by the WCC which was begining to refer to itself "The Church."WCC money was used to finance leftist guerillas all over South America. I am quite sure that you look on Google, you will find access to the archives of the WCC-take time and read some of their declarations.

At the world meeting held in Australia, the participants of the conference entered the meeting area to the dancing and chanting of Aboriginies, and they walked through "sacred smoke."The single most powerful Orthodox hierarch in the world walked through that smoke, and I am sorry to say, that the largest delegation to the whole conference was the Moscow Patriarchate with an Archbishop and 42 other delegates. Now, it is down to two, a young priest and a layman.one "service" was conducted by an Asian woman who is a Christian minister, but openly venerates Buddha, and her presentation was rather frightening with drums and darkness, and weird dancers and no references to Christ.

There was one service which included a procession with the Gospel, with androgenous mean and women wearing long flowing robes lifting bowels of smoking incense as if in offeering to some idol, and the person carrying ther Gospel was a well-know Greek hierarch from the North American continent. Later, the Russian hierarch led the participants, many non-Christian in a prayer of "unity," the Nicene Creed. I saw all of this on video tape.

As I have been saying on other threads at other times, and for almost a year; this is indicative of what happens when obedience to the Truth (the Orthodox Church)is pushed aside for "Universal Love."Ecumenical activities are simply arenas for the compromise and betrayal of Orthodoxy. And some of you wonder why I get discouraged?

If you can live with that kind of witness, that is up to you, I myself simply cannot. Forgive me.

God bless!

A.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Michael,

I do not see how the present ecumenical movement contains "an implied acknowledgement that the current situation...is flawed,and in need of healing." Or do you mean that the Orthodox Church does (or at least should) recognise this? If the former could you explain more fully what you mean?

In any case the issue of ecumenism is one of the most crucial issues facing the Holy Church today. The Church does have that obligation to bear witness to 'what is true & real'. But the main problem with the ecumenucal movement has been its tendency to deny the One Truth & Reality of Christ and His Church and instead proclaim in idealistic fashion that all things are truth. Thus the critical question becomes: within the ecumenical movement are we witnessing to the Truth of Christ or are we losing the integrity of our witness?

I must admit that I have become more mild-mannered on this question than I once was. There are those who do perhaps make a witness within that forum with full Orthodox integrity. Also not all that is mistaken is heresy. Sadly however, during the 20th century, much ecumenical witness of the Orthodox seemed to be motivated by a desire to 'fit in with the Jones', to be accepted by all as another 'normal religion'. We should not have to explain how this is such a grave temptation since we should know already that Christ's calling is to be 'not of this world'.

This is not to say there should be no contact between Orthodoxy and other Christians (or other religions); even many of the most 'zealous' still kept up personal contacts and gave talks etc to those outside the Faith.

I would like to offer that this issue of ecumenism will be naturally dealt with in a Godly fashion to the extent that first we as Orthodox grow in faithfulness, 'in unity of mind'. The post World War II period saw the heights of that idealistic and materialistic culture in the West; by unity of good will, tolerance and technology all evils were to be overcome. Sadly this cultural wave took much of the Orthodox Church in the West in its wake. A small number fiercely resisted (at times with un-righteous zeal)this trend and we had the Church split in two, going in seeming opposite directions. Now we see a miracle of healing beginning; more & more of us realise the world cannot give us the essential answers; only Christ can; and that the ascetic answer was correct all along. There is no need for triumphalism of any 'party' within the Church; this change has more to do with the Holy Spirit moving hearts, saints praying for us and the gradual disintegration of post WWII culture than with anything noble we did. Again, I sense that as our Church heals so we will gradually come to the proper way in which to deal with ecumenism.

If I could share something with you dear community, something close to my heart. I came to Holy Orthodoxy at a time when it seemed that the Church was two warring factions never destined to reconcile. At one point I personally gave up hope there could ever be healing. Recently however in the past few years I have begun to see the beginnings of a true miracle, of a healing due to unity of spirit I have never seen before (as here at monachos); sometimes I have pinched myself and said that this was just some sort of naive imagination; but others confirm what I am saying.

We must focus on healing ourselves so that we can heal those outside. Many have been divided within the Church because they have been deeply hurt by each other. Healing is a responsability of love, it will not drop out of the sky. The first step towards a godly ecumenism is to seize the moment and heal ourselves.

In the love of Christ- Fr R

[Fr Averky]

Dear Melissa,

You are far too kind. Whatever areas in which I am "never wrong" can be only those which are the teachings of the Church, for I am but a short-tempered old monk and my opinions on anything count for nothing.

Just keep struggling to say your prayers, to be humble before God and the Church, and never trust in yourself-for anything, but put all your trust only in God. ( Put not your trust in princes and the sons of men in whom there is no salvation)

Love In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Sarah Mikhail]

Hia

I'm not sure how to phrase what i'm going to say so please bear with me as i ramble on for a while. I have no idea as to the correct definition of ecuminismm but my understanding is that is the dialogue between churches and this is what the WCC is about? am i wrong?

while i'm not sure, i think my church (coptic) is a member of the WCC and in no way veiws all other memeber as "sister churches" nor that thery are different "branches" of the one church. It attends to give it veiw of the orthdox faith. as far as i know ecumenism extends to our dialouge with other churches such as the RC and seeing as we are not yet in communion the EO church. We not attempt to find "a compramise" as if one could comprimise the truth, but to present the faith and come to the same understanding of that true faith.

maybe my understanding of ecumenism is wrong and i welcome correction but i see no harm in that.

Please pray for me as i have started what is to be my hardest yearin my medical training and i will be juggling my degree a subject at theological college, serving my sudayschool class as well living away from home for the first time. please pray that my spiritiual life does not get lost in the midst of all this

love in Christ
Sarah

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Sarah,

Thank you for your post. When I said that I had grown more mild-mannered about involvement in ecumenism I could have looked at the second paragraph of your post as a good example of why we at least need to soberly reflect before we condemn outright all participation. If we are involved in the WCC it must be done in full and sober Orthodox integrity but if this is achieved or is our true intent perhaps this shoul play some role in our Orthodox life. Still I am more comfortable that real witness is achieved on the parish (or monastery) level; visitors make the effort to see what Orthodoxy is & they make their own choice. Lots of talking outside the actual 'space' of the Church can sometimes amount only to socialising; we mistake 'making each other comfortable' with real unity in Christ. This I see as the chief temptation of modern ecumenism; but as Sarah says perhaps some do not do this: they could certainly teach us then!

Coptic-EO relations are a good example of this point; until there is a full acceptance of the Council of Chalcedon (4th Ecumenical Council) there will not be communion between us. But looked at soberly there is much about Coptic piety that would be very edifying for us; also I once looked at some English translations of Coptic Liturgies; most were completely free of any doctrinal points we would disagree with- most were similiar in feel to St James' Liturgy- VERY ancient. So to be sober, listen carefully and see what the Orthodox Church really theologically (not culturally) disagrees with.

In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Michael,
Yes that is an interesting thought: "from their perspective...an ecumenical movement must spring from some inner realisation that they are unfulfilled...having no real, tangible unity or communion." Yes, but what of the fact that very often the non-Orthodox (and sometimes Orthodox also) feel that inner unity of Faith is unnecessary; that the ecumenical movement exists 1)to convince others that unity of faith is not essential, we all are just 'pieces of the one picture', we all just worship God 'in our own ways'. 2)the ecumenical movement exists to give outward 'unity' to what is only an apparent division.
Of course there can always be those who come to the realisation that the religion of 'absolute relativity' is false. There may be those who feel that something very important is missing and only within Christ's Church can this be fulfilled. Some outside of the Churchwill feel something is missing, others will feel everything is alright. These are I feel good & important questions; I do not feel too sure myself about the best way forward;only through prayer & sober reflection will we be able to know the godly direction.
In Christ- Fr R

[M. Rallis]

Dear Father Rahpael:

I won't presume to know the answers to the questions that you raise in your post #41. But, maybe, the very divergence of non-Orthodox views about ecumenism, that you refer to, is reflective of an opportunity for witness. Not that all will listen to the words of the Church, but it seems the more that get the oppportunity to hear, then little by little, we welcome more of our brothers, and sisters, into the faith. And, in the interface with the ecumenical movement, we are encountering people searching for something better, an improvement on the current state of affairs in the non-Orthodox Christian world. People who are searching, sometimes are more willing to listen to something different. If you are searching, you are already looking beyond yourself. But, I agree, there is danger in this interface, especially with the organized ecumenical movement, WCC, as surely there is great pressure to fit in, get along, and be like everybody else, searching for something new, rather than witnessing to the reality of Orthodoxy. Witness "to" the ecumenical movement, but not become "of" the ecumenical movement.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Michael,

I find distrubing your suggestion tha the liturgical prayer you quote from the Divine Liturgy has anything to do with non-Orthodox.

When we pray "for union of all Churches," we are in no way asking for the unity of the Orthodox Church with heterodox. No, it is an ancient prayer, composed before Rome went into schism and the Protestant revolt. if one looks at the history of the Orthodox Church he will see that the divisions that we have in Orthodxy at the present time are in no way new. Because of heresy, politics and governmental pressures, there have been many times when Orthodx local chuirches were in turmoil an conflict, and yet the unity in Faith was never broken.

When the Church in Russia, after humbly submitting its election of Metropolitans to the Great Church for 00 hundred decided to declare autocephaly and elected its first Patriarch , Constantinople wanted to declare that action null and void, but the end of the Byzantine Empire was iminent, and Russia was on the rise, She wisely let it stand, and Moscow became "The Third Rome."

Centuries later, when the Church of Bulgaria did the same thing, it was put under interdict, and the Great Church would not concelebrate or recogniz e it for a hundred years. Thus when we pray for union, it is a prayer for fhe unity of Orthodox Churches-only.

You beg the questiion when you speak of the value of Ecumenical Orthodx "witness, for in all the years of membership in the WCC, the Orthodox delegates have had almost no influence, and as of late have bitterly complained that the views of such ancient Church has been drowned out by Protestant and non-Christian issues and values. In a recent visit to the Phanar, the President of the WCC assured Patriarch Bartholomeos that more attention would be given to the Orthodox, and the Patriarch reaffirmed his, Church''s commitment to Ecumenical aims.. I am not judging here, it is a fact.

Surely you have heard the saying, "If you play in the mud, you will get dirty." Rather than excite the other Churches with the pure Message of Orthodxy, for the most part, the representatives of the Orthodox Churches have ended up comprokmsing and even betraying Orthodoxy . In the sixties, much -respected Patriarch Athenagorus basically said that we should only focus on what we have in common, and not be conceerned by what seperates us. Such words are deadly and a threat to the Church, for But Michael, if we do that, then we will indeed become just another sect, a small exotic Church with little significance or influence. And the result will be that God will not be pleased, but many will not follow the Orthodox ecumenists, not wanting to risk their souls

.Further, he Patriarch made bold to say, "The sun of love will melt away our differences." But what kind of "love" is involved when the Orthodox Church gives up Her singular place as the True Church of Christ preserved untouched, the teachings of the Church by the Hoy Martyrs and confessors, and great teachers like St. John Chrysostom and thd Cappodocian Fathers

What is ro be gaijned by thiis willingness to compromise the Tuth for errors? Why did St. Athanasios the Great not just give in to Arius, and agree that Christ has only one nature, that of a man? Why did St. Gregory Palamas willingly imprisonment and beartings for the sak of Hesychasm, an OrthodoxTruth. Why then did St, Maximos remain firm when almost the entire Church had fallen into heresy? Why didn't St. Mark of Ephesus no just go ahead and sign the false union with the Latins -everybody else had. Why then did he return to his small diocese and proclaim the Triumph of Orthodxy, causing the Pope to throw the document of union on the floor when he saw that St. Mark had not signed, and said in disgust, "This is worthless! iI is nothing!" I could mention so many more, but my point is made.

Michael, were these saints but fools, living in another age, and can we dare speculate that if they were alive now, they would have compromised? I think not. I am sorry, I can in now way accept your view, which alas, renders i us in this question not of "one heart and of one mind."


By the way, the prayer you quote is asking God to preserve all of Orthodoxy in the "unity of faith" Please explain to me on Monachachos just why, we would pray for non-Orthodox in the context of the Divine Liturgy, whose central holy purpose is the greatest spiritual Treasure of the Church, the sharing of the Body and Blood of Chrsit when almost all Protestants deny this Mystery? How we are becoming influenced by The Spirit of the Times.

sincerely,

hieromonk Averky

[M. Rallis]

Dear Father Averky:

Please pray for me a sinner.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to my post, I value your thoughts highly, and even more do I value the bond of Christian love which you have shared with all of us who follow Monachos. And, I take your strong words toward me as a sign of that selfless Christian love.

So when you say:

“I am sorry, I can in no way accept your view, which alas, renders us in this question not of "one heart and of one mind"

you certainly challenge me to examine my own thinking. However, I am not so sure that we are so far apart in what we actually believe, even in regards to this controversial topic. Father, I don’t mean to provoke you, but I would still like to open up my thoughts to you, so that you can perform the duties of a skilled surgeon, cutting away that which is unhealthy.

Father, you said to me:

“I find disturbing your suggestion that the liturgical prayer you quote from the Divine Liturgy has anything to do with non-Orthodox.”

“By the way, the prayer you quote is asking God to preserve all of Orthodoxy in the "unity of faith" Please explain to me on Monachos just why, we would pray for non-Orthodox in the context of the Divine Liturgy, whose central holy purpose is the greatest spiritual Treasure of the Church, the sharing of the Body and Blood of Christ when almost all Protestants deny this Mystery?”

First, I did not mean that the prayer during the Divine Liturgy was an ecumenical prayer for unity with the non-Orthodox, nor do I believe that we pray for a unity of Orthodox and non-Orthodox during the Divine Liturgy. Second, we agree that any ecumenical witness should never be a process of compromising Truth for errors. Third, the Holy Saints, Athanasios, Gregory Palamas, Maximos the Confessor, and Mark of Ephesos, are certainly heroes to me as well, and their strong witness is needed even more today. So, with so much agreement, why are we at odds? For sure, it is due to my poor ability to express things. So, please allow me to provide a few quotations from those who can express truth well:

“BY THE WILL OF GOD the Holy Church, after the falling away of many schisms, and of the Roman Patriarchate, was preserved in the Greek Dioceses and Patriarchates, and only those communities can acknowledge one another as fully Christian which preserve their unity with the Eastern Patriarchates, or enter into this unity. For there is one God and one Church, and within her there is neither dissension nor disagreement".
....Alexei Khomiakov, “The Church is One”

"And therefore the Church is called Orthodox, or Eastern, or Greco-Russian, but all these are only temporary designations. The Church ought not to be accused of pride for calling herself Orthodox, inasmuch as she also calls herself Holy. When false doctrines shall have disappeared, there will be no further need for the name Orthodox, for then there will be no erroneous Christianity. When the Church shall have extended herself, or the fullness of the nations shall have entered into her, then all local appellations will cease; for the Church is not bound up with any locality; she neither boasts herself of any particular see or territory, nor preserves the inheritance of pagan pride; but she calls herself One Holy Catholic and Apostolic; knowing that the whole world belongs to her, and that no locality therein possesses any specia1 significance, but only temporarily can and does serve for the glorification of the name of God, according to His unsearchable will.”
......Alexei Khomiakov, “The Church is One”

“The Church has a mission to bear witness to unity, because in it God is known not simply as sole ruler, but as a perfect communion of three persons. Furthermore, the Word was made flesh in order to reveal the true divine unity and freedom which reigns in the bosom of the deity. He became “flesh” in order to demonstrate the spiritual mission of the “flesh”, and to show how everything has come into being and increases and is transfigured through the unity and fecundity of the Trinity. If we may put it this way, God did not consider creating the Church unified; He created it in His image. The unity of the Church is not the result of a theoretical plan, but a reflection of the mystical unity of the Trinity. That which exists by nature, eternally, in the relations of the three divine persons, is given by grace to the life of men. “The holy Church is an icon of God, for it brings about among the faithful a unity the same as that which is in God.”
..... Archimandrite Vasileios, “Hymn of Entry”

“If we love the world, following the Lord’s example we have to turn towards the Church and not towards the world. The Church is the kosmos, the order and beauty of the world. In it the whole world finds meaning and harmony. Outside it, it falls into chaos and ruin. Thus the way to show the greatest love for the world and give it a unique blessing is not by supporting it in a worldly manner, but through the extension of the Church to embrace all things, giving them life and joy.”
....Archimandrite Vasileios, “Hymn of Entry”

“The union of all for which the Church prays is not to be understood as an assembly of parts made up of “Christian communities,” but as an extension of the trinitarian unity divinely active in the liturgical body of the Church. “Reunion of the Church” is a totally inadmissible expression which clouds the issue. It originates, not from orthodox theological consciousness, but from a worldly outlook. If we put into practice plans and agreements of our own, substituting these for the mystical unity of the Trinity, it is a disaster and a condemnation for man, who is formed in the image of God.”
.... Archimandrite Vasileios, “Hymn of Entry”.

Now, Father Averky, when I read these Orthodox writers thoughts on unity I sense a tension between “unity” and “extension”. And this is where I am trying to place ecumenism, but please don’t let my using of that word, ecumenism, cause you to jump to visions of what has transpired at the WCC, I am trying to describe something else. In the terms provided by the above quotations, true ecumenism could be seen as the process by which the Trinitarian Unity extends to the whole “ecumene”. Both Khomiakov and Archimandrite Vasileios indicate a mission of Orthodoxy to extend herself, to bear witness of this true unity, and thereby show her love to the whole world. So, Father, I am somewhat unsure how to answer your question to me. While I certainly agree with you that we are not praying, during the Divine Liturgy or at any other time, for the unity of Orthodox and non-Orthodox, the unity of Truth with error, I am not so sure that when we pray for the unity of the faith and the Communion of the Holy Spirit during the Divine Liturgy, that there is not some part of that prayer which is extended on behalf of the “ecumene”. Are we praying that only those currently Orthodox be united in faith and communion, or do we pray that our fellow man, our neighbor also somehow find their way to the “embrace” of the Church, where they, too, can be given “life and joy”?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky & Michael,

Could I offer the folowing from the Mystagogia of St Maximos the Confessor, (apologies to all-I do believe the translation -St Bede's 1982- is poor but does get the point across): " It will be shown that God's holy Church...does God's work in us. The men, women & children coming into the Church, reborn and recreated by her in spirit, are just about infinite in number; they are very different from each other in race and appearance, they are of all languages, life styles, and ages; there are great differences in their mentalities, customs, and interests, their social station, their skills and their professions; their fortunes, their characters, and their abilities are all very different, but the Church confers one and the same divine character and title equally on all: that they be, and be called Christians; the Church bestows unity in that simple, indivisible relationship that comes from faith, and does not allow the many untold differences to stand out, even though they exist in every one."

The unifying work of the Church is found perfectly expressed within her Holy Liturgy. Here the prayer of the Church is found to be that all who have already come to Her in baptism may be made perfect in faith. But there is also the larger universal or 'cosmic' prayer OF THE BAPTISED for the universe or cosmos for at the end 'HE will be all things, the first in all things' (prayer at St Basil's Liturgy) This is what St Maximos refers to for his emphasis always concerns how all comes from and leads back to Christ.

The Church does not pray for a false unity based on false truth; and what is not of the Truth cannot be the basis of true unity so the Church would not pray for this. But the Church does pray that all may find unity and life in the truth of Christ; and further She prays that all may have the good favour of the Church showered on them. "For the good of the whole world..."

At least that is how I see it at this point in time.
In Christ- Fr R

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ
Michael,

I thank you very much for your good response. I very much appreciate the quotes you kindly supplied all of us with.

I think that now I can understand your words,and of course in the broad sense they are true. However, when we speak of ecumenism in these last days, we usually mean in particular the attempt at creating a false unity among various Christian bodies.


While I will not, I could give a great number of quotes from Orthodox hierarchs, including a major Patriarch which very much compromise the pure teachings of Orthodoxy. It now can be seen that from a steady diet of ecumenical views and activities since the early 1960s, many Orthodox faithful have become imbued with the idea that ecumenical contact, joint prayer, and in some cases (such as weddings), concelebration, having attended such public demonstrations of "Christian unity," when in fact they are nothing of the kind, and as is all too often, it was the Orthodox who compromised the Sacred Canons and the integrity of the Church, such occasions are not only seen as being "good," but desirable. ( excuse my 'German' sentence)

Michael, let us fervently pray that the Orthodox Churches will concentrate on unity with each other, for if they could put aside their bickerng and abandon modernist tendencies, returning to the tradfitional views held until the early 20th century, and truly be as One, then the spiritual force of that togetherness would be such that there would be no need for participation in dishonest attempts to create a new "church" based on perceived errors as you say, but sincere Christian people of good will would be drawn to Orthodoxy seing the Truth of its spiritual dynamics and pure Christian message.

You speak rightly when you do speak "perceived errors," for the WCC is based on the premise that having taken an oveview of world Christianity, the Protestant founders came to realize that something was very wrong, instead of looking to the truths of the early and united Chrsistian Church, their solution is just to throw everybody into the same stew pot, over-looking "differences," but to unite in "love." As to how praying with non-Christians constitutes seeking unity among Christians, I have no idea.

The Pope of Rome has done the same thing, and all ithey have acomplished is to have a convergence of brightly clothed non-Christians with a few Protestants and even a few Orthodox thrown in, who all give a polite pretense of praying together. At one of these in Assisi, Buddhist priests were permittdd to place a statue of Buddha on a Catholic altar to hold serviceso. What a triumph it must have been- Budha on a Chrsitian altar. Not wishing to "offend" their non-Christian guests, theFranciscans removed crucifixes from rooms which would be used fo the talks. I have never heard of anything positive or even promising form these meetijngs, and at thelast ne, The Dali Lhama and the Archbishop of Canterbury did not attend, citing other obligations, most likey realizing that such meetings are a colossal waste of time.

Michael , forgive me, but I cannot make myself more clear, for I am not a theologian or a canon lawer, I can only go by what I have been taught. and have read, so please forgive me if my answers have not been satisfactory.

You are in my prayers. God bless you!.

hieromonk Averky

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky,

I so much agree with you when you say that, "the Orthodox churches should concentrate on unity with each other." I brought this up before in a previous posting but this seems to be so important a point that it would do well to return to it. Of what point is our witness of unity with other Christians when we are still so divided among ourselves? I believe that restoring unity should be a 'front-burner' issue for all of us. The situation is much better than 20-30 years ago but much still needs to be healed.

What to do? Last year an Orthodox nun from another jurisdiction said to me, "so many were hurt'. To be honest, at first I thought that this was not a very profound explanation of something that had divided so many Orthodox from each other for so long; there were other more profound reasons than this. But after time had passed I realised there was a certain truth in what she said; yes there were other reasons but in the words & feelings exchanged many were often deeply hurt & offended. The truth was that at least partly the divide was kept going because many of us carried those wounds, "they're nice to Protestants but not so nice to us!" And we also learnt the behaviour that it was alright to offend others on the other side of 'the divide'. One further note; others are not only hurt by being called nasty names or having nasty behaviour directed at them; it is very difficult to deal with an accusation that seems to say you are not faithful, maybe only Orthodox in name.

As the fundamental reasons of the divide are healed I believe that this is the work we have been called to do 'on the ground'. To go out of our way, to forgive when we are insulted & hurt and to learn the difference between what is wrong in the Church and what is heretical. I like to say, "love is a responsability"; ie love is hard work & healing will not simply fall out of the sky because we 'hope' for it : I am convinced: to heal Orthodoxy WE WILL HAVE TO HURT FOR IT. In places such as this the seeds of healing or division are found.

In the love of Christ- Fr R

[Gilbert Gandenberger]

We pray for the one, holy, catholic, and orthodox church in the Divine Liturgy. This to me is a prayer for unity within the true body of Christ. The WCC & Ecumenical movement is certainly problematic and does not live up to this prayer, in my opinion. I do not want to define in my own mind & heart when I pray this the boundaries of who is in & who is not, for I do not want to judge anyone servant. I want to stand in unity with all of God's servants.

The state of Christendom is sad to me, and I pray that I do not add to the disunity: and where able to be a peacemaker like our Lord.

I also believe that the real unity we have is grounded in our substantial union in the glorified humanity of our Lord. It has a foundation therefore that is powerful against the evil one, and mighty to save us all.

Any "unity" based on any other foundation is only wood & stubble, to be burned up in time or at the end of time. Those who build with gold and precious stones will see their works outlast their lifetimes.

Looking back thru the history of the heretics & schismatics, we have called great those Fathers who were enlightened with wisdom to see those truly heretical, those who were confused, those who understood the true orthodox faith & worship but stumbled over words. In particular in the era of the Arian heresy, St. Athanasius was clearly anointed to bring healing, followed in the next generation by the Cappadocians. I am encouraged that in time God worked in all of these great men, and saved the weak by the humble service of the strong.

I fear the church is beset with confusion, allowing wolves to tear at the flock. The clergy in particular is called to protect the sheep, correct the erring, and remove the heretical. This takes courage that is directed by wisdom in the faith. I fear we lack courageous leaders. Our faith is real life and health; any clergy who do not realize the seriousness of their calling to protect the flock will face our great Judge one day, and He will ask did you feed my sheep? Where is the treasure entrusted to you?

May we be found good watchmen!

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Father Raphael,

Thank you for your good words, said in a much less long-winded manner which, try as I might, I am not capable of doing. At any rate, to you and Dear Michael, I have said all that I have to say on on this particular thread.

I kiss your hand in a priestly manner, Father Raphael, and I send warm greetings and blessings to you, Michael.

Sinful
hieromonk Averfkuy

[M. Rallis]

Dear Father Averky and Father Raphael:

I thank God that he has blessed me to share a few words and thoughts with you both. Our backgrounds are certainly so different that we would never have crossed paths in this life, other that through our unity in His Body, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Father Averky, your words are clear and satisfactory, and I do understand your being scandalized by what has been done in the name of ecumenism.

I am just not willing to turn over the term "ecumenical" to a non-Orthodox or even anti-Orthodox meaning.
" Worldwide, or general, in extent, influence, or application" is the leading Webster's Dictionary definition of the word, ecumenical. Our Church has always been that, it is an intergral part of our being.

Father Rahael, I suppose that the fact that you and Father Averky and I are here on Monachos discussing togther, in a bond of Christian love, contrversial issues, is an example of the grace-filled words of Saint Maximos:

"the Church confers one and the same divine character and title equally on all: that they be, and be called Christians; the Church bestows unity in that simple, indivisible relationship that comes from faith, and does not allow the many untold differences to stand out, even though they exist in every one."

I know that we are part of different jurisdictions within Orthodoxy, but I take pride, not in myself, but in our good and loving Lord, Who has tolerated me to be in such good company, with such priests and hieromonks as you two.

[Rebecca]

I'm finding this thread quite interesting to my pea brain.

Perhaps the word "ecumenical" is a hot button word, which holds certain assumptions of meaning and intent to some. I myself, have never identified the word "ecumenical" with these aparent assumptions, so I am not abraded by use of the word (maybe it's a generational thing or maybe it's my limited intellect again).

It occurs to me that my dad always taught me that the Orthodox were united through Holy Communion.

I've recently been reading about St. Kosmas the Aitolian. He lived during the Ottoman rule of Greece. He's considered the teacher of the Greeks because he encouraged use of the Greek language and Letters in schools, because the only other schools available were Islamic (if I remember rightly). Use of Greek language in that situation (a Christian nation ruled by an Islamic conqueror), was a way to preserve and teach Christianity.

But in America, Europe and Australia and many other parts of the world, we're outside the context of Ottoman/Islamic Rule...

Though this is certainly a long way to get to the point, I think there's a parallel with the topic of 'ecumene' in it's greek rooted meaning (the inhabited world)...

Are our views those of ancestors whose perspective was formed in the context of oppression and a different circumstance?

Is outreach or evangelism tantamount to betrayal of faith? I can't accept that it is, and don't think that St. Paul's example supports this. Have we not a charge today to somehow reach out (cast the net) to the world that it may be drawn into the net of Truth?

One of the first posts I made to this forum was also quote from 'Hymn of Entry' by Archimandrite Vaselios where he spoke of the one thing necessary being the Trinitarian nature of the Church and man's hunger for a taste of eternity. I just wonder if while preserving and trying to live the Christian life we don't fall short of what we should be doing if we neglect our neighbors.

I emphasize that I am speaking in general terms and not entering into judgement for or against any particular individuals who engage or do not engage in meetings of any particular 'councils of churches', etc. and am in no way advocating a departure from Truth.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Rebecca & Melissa,

At times it seems that everything 'comes together' in these threads. The quote of the Blessed Theophylact which I just posted to Irene seems to address all of these issues which you raise at once, for in a deeper way we seem to be speaking about discernment & charity to neighbour.

Both in friendly conversation and in 'ecumenical activity' Theophylact's instruction seems to apply: "visit him who is shut up in the dark prison of this body and give him counsel which is as a light to him." i.e. for those who suffer due to living amidst the imprisoning confusion of this world, bring the True Light of Christ even if it is only one small kind & dignified word.

In Christ- Fr R

[Marie-Duquette]

"O Christ our God, who at every season and every hour in heaven and on earth, are worshipped and glorified, who are long suffering, merciful and compassionate, who love the just show mercy to sinners, who call all to salvation through the promise of blessings to come, O Lord at this Hour receive our supplications, direct our lives according to your commandments, sanctify our souls, hallow our bodies, correct our thoughts, cleanse our minds, deliver us from every tribulation, evil and distress; surround us with your Angels that directed and guided by them we may come to the unity of the Faith, and to the knowledge of your unapproachable Glory. for you are blessed unto ages of ages. Amen!"

This is the first prayer that I memorized as an Orthodox Christian. It contains for me the Truth and the simple trust that is asked of me, Today, as I look to the Lord Jesus Christ in relation to my own life. Marie Duquette