Evangelism and arrogance

[Effie Ganatsios]

I just read the following article and I don't know whether to laugh or whether to start screaming at something - what? the pine trees around my house???Christians Hope to Win Souls at 2004 Olympic Games
Charisma News Service


World-class athletes will be going for the gold next summer when the Olympic Games return to Greece, but believers hope to win souls in Athens.

Thousands of Christians plan to use the event to evangelize a spiritually needy country, whose language God chose for communicating the gospel to non-Jews.

Twenty centuries after the apostle Paul made history-making mission trips to Thessaloniki (Thessalonica) and Korinthos (Corinth) and eternalized the ancient cities through his letters to the Christians there, Greece today is anything but a Christian country.

Though 98 percent of the population belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, evangelical, Pentecostal and charismatic churches comprise some 0.14 percent of the population, or a mere 15,000 people out of 10.5 million.

But as the birthplace of the Olympic Games, Greece is poised for a spiritual awakening, Christian leaders told "Charisma" magazine in a forthcoming report on evangelism plans for Athens in 2004.

"The international church will focus on Greece, and there will be a global wave of prayer for our country that will release a wave of revival," predicts Johnathan Macris, a high-profile Greek Protestant and director of Hellenic Ministries.

"I aim at mobilizing 100,000 committed intercessors," he adds. "It is time for the Western church [in Europe and North America] to return a measure of the blessing it has received by way of Greece and through the Greek language."

Macris claims the Olympics are critical not only to saturating Greece with the gospel -- in August thousands of believers will come to Greece for evangelistic outreaches -- but also to reaching the 1.2 billion Muslims in the Asian countries that lie between Athens and Beijing, the host city of the 2008 Olympics.

Macris views the Olympics as a step toward a unified worship of the Antichrist as outlined in the biblical book of Revelation, which was written on the Greek island of Patmos. The worship of idols, and of man, is a fundamental element of the world's most famous sporting event.

Macris believes the 2004 Games will be the largest event of idol worship in world history to date. But he says God's plan is to mobilize an army of intercessors to pull down the "[spiritual] stronghold over Greece" for the purpose of opening the door to evangelism in the country.

Macris and local church leaders, though, anticipate a spiritual battle. An anti-proselytism law is in place, but church leaders and missionaries say the government currently takes little action. The general mentality of the Greek Orthodox Church and the public remains strongly anti-Protestant.

"The real problem is that the Greek are very skeptical toward non-Orthodox churches," Timotheos Antoniadis of Thessaloniki, who pastors a typically small Protestant church, explains. "The perception of Protestants as a threat is a [spiritual] wall that we need to breech!"

Antoniadis' congregation attempts to break this stereotype by reaching out to the needy, the poor, the prostitutes and the immigrants. In the last four years, the average Sunday attendance at his church has doubled from 20 to 40. Most of the new attendees, including Russian-speaking converts, belong to socially marginalized groups."


What arrogance!!!! As I said at the beginning, should I laugh or what? Do these people really believe this rubbish?

I think I can now better understand the person who started the salvation thread. I don't think he was interested in learning anything at all - he just wanted to show that he was a Christian but that apparently the Orthodox weren't.

Effie

Effie

[Fr Averky]

Dear Effie,

I rather think that the "intercessors" are in for a surprize.

I do not know if you remeber this , but in the early 1980's, the Charismatic Movement, attempted to make inroads into the Greek Orthodox Church in N. America. A priest miffed that he was not made a bishop - he was considered mentally unstable- looked for a way to be "loved," and to establish some sort of a power base. He started to go about telling of the "glories" of being "baptized in the Spirit," and those Greeks who had not been taught much piety, or had been stengthened by knowledge of their faith , for whatever reason, ) no judging anyone) they fell into the trap. When I was assigned to a city in the Central Northeast, one netire parish of several thousands had fallen into that demonic spell led by a vigourus young Greek lawyer. Filled with demonic pride, the priest. Eusebios Stephanou, took his anti-Christ inspired
spirit filled-"message" to Greece. He manged to hav one meeting. The Holy Archbishop of Athens, had him thrown out of Greece with a policd escort to the airport. After that an official and very strong complaint was publicly issued to Aecxhbishop Iakovos, demanding to know why he had permitted such a heretic, a liar, and enemy of Christ's Church and a buffoon to step one foot onto the ancient land of the blessed St. Paul When Stephanou returned, he was suspended, publicly shamed and his movent quidkly died. died-it never had life. the poor souls caught up in such Charismatic and Evangelicalheresies are indeed filled with a spirit- the spirit of the Father of Lies, and they become unwilling or willing kindred of the demons , who howl when they hear name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. they are pleased when those who not know christ our Saviour call Him with such familiarity, "Jesus,' a common name Joshua- for they do not take into account that the Jesus we worship is Jesus Christ -Christ the Anointed one. And they are even worse heretics, they are Arians- for they preach that "He is the only son of God", never acknowledging that he has two natures, True God and True Man- as defined by the Ecuumenical Councils. The tragedy, is that so many poor souls do not even know it. Their preachers are those who as Scripture say, go roaming about like a lion, seeking the ruin of souls. They are not going to Greece to save souls, they are going to try to lead them into perdition.

The people of Greece might seem to those poor false christians to be "needy" for they cnnot beginto perceive the richness of faith they possess. They try to "buy" souls with their offering of food , trinkets and Bibles, as if being missionaries to some ignorant savages ,expecting them to grovel at their feet and praise them for their godliness and blessing them for freeing them from "idolatry." It is the :missionaries who worship idols, and their most powerful idol is the demon of Pride.

I pray that every old ya-ya will greet them with a broom, brushing them away with their false teeachings and their errors. Matthew might get angry with me, and Mr. Tanner will send another ill-informed lettter, but this subject touches a nerve, because, even the most simple person can be taught, but if he thinks he knows it all, what can be done for him? There is no way you can have an educa

Just a few days of these Bible people have brought back terrible memmories to me, and as I told someone today how when I was eight, some Pentecostals tricked me into being "saved," for which they were evicted the very next day by my mother, who owned the building they were meeting in. this they did when she had given them much reduced rent and paid the utilities herself because they were poor, with the proviso that they did not try to in any way evangelize us, and they went behind her back. I have cast them out of my life and I want to hear nothing they have to say. I am talking about those 'Bible' people with no seminary or higher educationj, no theology, no tradition, just just their pride. I am not talking to sincere men of good faith who truly are seeking the kingdom of heaven, and do not prattle about being saved. Don't worry I hope they go to the Olynpics, otherwise they can look at all the thousands of Orthodox churches and eat the wonderful food. May the shingles fall from their eyes.

They tried the same in Russia, and they were invited to go home. At one point several groups had ammased 13 million dollars for evangelization, but the Russian Federation refused to register their Churches, and thus they cannot function. Now the greatest threat to Russian Orthodoxy, struggling to revive after eighty years of intense persecution is the vatican. God help all of us! And please God, let the bible people see their erors and repent-no one deserves to be lost. Let them be converted and live!

Effie, I hope to go to Istanbul and to visit the ancient cities where my Turkish ancestors are from-I'll stop in Athens on my way, and we can eat! One of my most memoravble meals in my life was a delicious and leisurely lunch in Aegina-with the sun and the sea such a special color and the sun sparkling like diamonds on the water- my heart often goes to back to those days when I was healthy, and did not know what would be in the years to come. I will always tresure my month in Greece-I received many blessings there. Just to see so many churches, and people crossing themselves, and icons in the shop windows and all the priests, monks and nuns to be seen walking around- now, I think of it, and wished I had stayed...

[Waldemar]

Light and Life
World's Largest Orthodox Supplier
www.light-n-life.com (http://www.light-n-life.com)

is keeping Stephanou in business.

Here is a list of his publications for sale to Orthodox Christians:

Are Sacraments Doing Any Good to Anybody?
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Are You Ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb?
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Born Again: When?
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Can We Know When We Are Saved?
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Divine Healing: Is It Orthodox? Is It for Today?
by Fr. E. Stephanou

How Can an Orthodox be Born Again?
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Orthodox Charismatic Renewal: A Response
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Orthodox Renewal Series
by Fr. Eusebius Stephanou

Rediscovering the Lay Ministry in the Orthodox Church
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Relying on the Holy Spirit for Orthodox Renewal
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Selected Passages From the Writings of St Symeon the New Theologian
by E. Stephanou

To be Born Again: An Orthodox Approach
by Fr. E. Stephanou

Why the Church Should Get Out of the Restaurant Business
by Fr. E. Stephanou

[Effie Ganatsios]

Each person has the right to believe whatever he or she wants to and I have no problem with Catholics, Protestants, or any other Christian group. (I have no problem with religions other than Christianity because I respect other people and their right to believe in whatever they want). In fact when I was growing up my only contacts with religion were Protestant pastors. That's not the problem as I see it.

The ignorance and the arrogance of this article were the things that truly annoyed me.

some of the phrases used :

"Thousands of Christians plan to use the event to evangelize a spiritually needy country, whose language God chose for communicating the gospel to non-Jews. "
- spiritually needy country???

"But he says God's plan is to mobilize an army of intercessors to pull down the "[spiritual] stronghold over Greece" for the purpose of opening the door to evangelism in the country. "

God's plan? - does this person have a personal line to God? What does he know of "God's plan"?

"Greece today is anything but a Christian country."

This is so untrue that it is absolutely laughable. Where do these people learn these things? Who gives them their information?

"Macris claims the Olympics are critical not only to saturating Greece with the gospel .."

When he uses the word "gospel" I assume he means the Bible. Grandmothers in church can follow the liturgy without even reading it (as I have to do) because they know it by heart. The liturgy of course is not part of the bible but I used this as an example of how well-read even the old women who go to church are. What does he think Greek Orthodox read? The Koran?

"Most of the new attendees, including Russian-speaking converts, belong to socially marginalized groups."


In the last few years a lot of foreigners have settled in Greece. These people are given special benefits that Greeks don't get, such as
free housing, public service jobs, etc. I know that the Russian immigrants are Old Church Orthodox so I don't imagine they are the ones who are interested in becoming Protestant. There are a lot of Albanians who are Muslim and others from many other parts of the world. If the protestants can get these people into their churches then "good on them" - I have no problem with this.

I truly cannot believe that these people are so ignorant of other countries and the people who live in those countries.

I'm sorry I'm so angry about this but the ignorance of people who want to go to other countries and act as "teachers" to the poor natives or whatever they think people other than their own countrymen are is horrifying.

I don't think I understood exactly who Fr. E. Stephanou is. Is he an Orthodox priest? Has he been excommunicated? Were these books written before he became a Protestant? As you can see I don't even know what this Charismatic thing is.
Can Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants be Charismatics as well?

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Father Averky, for you to be thinking about a trip to Greece means that you are feeling much better. I'm so glad.

The old grandmothers will definitely have the time of their lives if an evangelist tries to convert them. Just thinking about it makes me smile.

I like the fact that your messages usually include either a personal anecdote or something from the fathers. This is always a simple and pleasing method of conveying something that we wish to say. I say this because in one of your messages you apologized for it being too long. I only hope that you never shorten your messages by deleting these anecdotes. I think that a lot of other people on this forum feel as I do.

Effie

[Johanna]

Dear Effie and Fr. Averky,

Effie, I agree with you in regards to Fr. Averky's personal anecdotes or sharing something from the fathers. I hope and pray that he never shortens his posts by leaving these out, for even I, the immature and simple one am able to benefit greatly from his posts.

Fr. Averky, I also am glad to hear that you are feeling better. You remain in my weak prayers.

In Christ,

Johanna

[Herman Blaydoe]

Glory to God in all things. It would be my sincere hope that "evangelistic" efforts in Greece would indeed be fruitful, but not necessarily in the way that the "evangelists" would expect.

Note to ponder: When I visited an OCA church in Colorado Springs, it was my pleasure to meet three families that had formerly been Protestant missionaries to Romania. While in Romania they, of course, came into contact with Orthodoxy, and all three families ended up becoming Orthodox!

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28

May such of the Protestant "evangelizers" who may indeed have a deep thirst for God and His Truth come to know and better understand the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Church and be welcomed to her bosom, and may their zeal manifest as a "mission to the missionizers."

A simple thought from a simple mind.

Herman the simple

[Herman Blaydoe]

Fr. Eusebios Stefanou...Ah, that brings back memories. I met him back in the mid-70s, when he was still a priest in the GOA before he was defrocked for heresy, something along the lines of Donatism. As it was summed up by him rather quaintly: "If the Dove [Holy Spirit] sees a bunch of vultures hovering around the Chalice, He does not necessarily come down..." meaning that the bread and wine do not necessarily become the Body and Blood, if the clergy/parish are not "right with the Lord." I suspect not much explanation is necessary to understand why the bishops of the GOA became rather disenchanted with him.

He is a rather colorful character, and many are the anecdotes about his ministry. I remember hearing him tell of healing people over the telephone, and I seem to recall an amusing story of his exorcising the demons from a typewriter, unfortunately the Holy Water rusted the keys.

Haven't heard too much about him lately...

Sorry for the digression, but nostalgia is a strong temptation to this simple mind.

Herman the simple

[Richard McBride]

Monochos: Unbelievable Arrogance

Blessed of the Lord Effie

I know just how you feel. My own immediate reaction to the mountain of ignorance revealed in such tracts as you sent us is just what the prince of lies hopes for. It makes me mad. And then I react.

Father John is much cooler about it. I pray for his strengthening, and thank God for him.

These are good lessons for us. We must think about our reactions, and whether it is the Holy Spirit calling us to True Anger; or whether this test is from the black hearted liars who disguise themselves as evangeliz-ea-lots to drag our children away from their place at the Divine Liturgy. My first reaction to anger is often not reliable, however, for I still have a hard heart, and the demons know it. They know full well how to push my buttons.

The saddest thing of all is to see Orthodox yourth fall into apostasy, pulled down by the very sort of smiley faced niceness we admire, into the new age muck where all things are found to be OK. There is such an awful potential of this falling away for our young ones. I know you fear for you children, for the world from where the evangeliz-ea-lots arise is covered with all the glitz and glitter which seems so OK -- to inexperienced youth. How can they resist the huge pressures? They are prepared to resist the pusher and the panderer of drugs, but how can they know about the ones who come all smiles, selling a glitz covered apostasy?

We must do our best with them, then rely on the Holy Spirit to answer our prayers for the safety of our youth. We have seen young people on this list as they leaped to their death, out of Orthodoxy. But thank God, He receives the prodigals back -- the problem, howver, is in their own returning. (Even then, they may never return to their same place at the table.)

Thank you Effie

richard mcb

[Waldemar]

"By all means be pugnacious and angry my brothers, but about things that will lead to salvation." - St. Clement of Rome, First Epistle to the Corinthians

If you have a strong enough Christian constitutiion:

East West Church & Ministry Report
http://www.samford.edu/groups/global/ewcmreport/

This is a clearinghouse of information for Evangelical Protestants with a missionary focus on the former Soviet Union.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Effie and everyone,

I don't know if I can help, but let me try.

One of the first things I learned from the Fathers is "we are not our thoughts." When dealing with passions, we are most certainly not those either. When we're reacting, we are reacting to something from the outside only because of even some small match the thing we are reacting to has with something inside. That is the time to remember the commandment against judgment, but we must also remember insidious self righteousness. I mean, in pretending non-judgment which must always be after the fact.

Here is clear indication that Love is not motivating us etc, etc. Well, we all know what to do when caught in sin, right!?

"...having removed the beam from [our] own eye, we can then remove the mote from our brother's eye."

I for one can's see why anyone would get upset over a raft of foreighners who love their country's people so much they would die to see the salvatiomn of all their souls! MIsguided you say? They need a little more education maybe? I don't think a little challenge ever hurt anybody (anybody in Faith, at any rate).

Loving you all,

Richard

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Richard, let me answer the last message first....

the anger I experienced was because I felt that this article belittled the people of Greece and showed how arrogant Evangelists can sometimes be. In Mother Gabriela's biography there are quite a few references to the Evangelists in India. I am going to re-read it because the way they behaved in that country is, I think, an indication of how they think and act.

I am not afraid that Orthodox Greeks will be converted, and if some of them are, then that's their choice. My frustration after reading this article was not about what these people wanted to do but was due to the concept these people have of Greece.

If you want to understand my feelings better put yourself in my place. Richard, forgive me if I'm mixing you up with another member, but if I remember correctly you are a Lutheran. How would you feel if thousands of Greeks, who happen to be Orthodox, decided that American Lutherans were not Christian,had not been "saved" by the Lord, were not spiritual enough for us, did not live in a Christian country and therefore obviously needed converting. Imagine us devising various strategies so that when we descended on your city we would go right to work converting people we obviously consider to be inferior to us. How would you react to us? Wouldn't you think "the nerve of these people!!"

Thank you for your comments and I know that you are right when you say that when something annoys us or makes us angry then we are probably reacting to something in ourselves. I think my national pride came into the picture somewhere.

Disrespect for the beliefs and cultures of other countries is something we are all guilty of in one way or another, aren't we?


I have calmed down since yesterday and I can now look on the whole thing as insignificant and even quite amusing. It just gave me a bit of a shock when I realized how little these people know of Greece.

thank you for your comments.

Effie

[Fr Averky]

My Friends,

When I was reading the Holy Gospel of St. John last night, these words of our Saviour summed up so well the error of "Bible-based" Christians:

"you diligently study the scriptures because you think by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

I do not accept praise from men, but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.
John 5:39-42

Every time I read these words, I think of how Protestants generally, and Pentecostals particularly say that everything in the Bible is literally true, yet, they strumble on our Lord's very clear words:

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."
John 6:53-56

And then it then it says:

On hearing it, many of his disciples said,'This is a hard teaching, who can accept it?"...From this time many of mhis disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
John 6:60,66

How often they fall back on our Saviours words, "Do this in commemoration of me," claiming that He wanted the bread and wine, or Wonder bread and water, or the tortilla to be a symbol of some sort, but not His Flesh and Blood -not, not really! Sadly, many Catholics no longer believe either, but say it is just "symbolic."

Of course, I know that we have all read these verses many times, and when I have heard Pentecostals say "It's all in the Bible," I just smile, and shake my head. They do not realize in their folly that the Eucharist, the Divine Mysteries is the very center of the existence of Christian life. Our Saviour is eternally alive in us in His Precious Body and Blood. St. John of Kronstadt writes, "Once when pondering the Divine Mysteries, I thought to myself, 'how is it that bread and wine can become Flesh and Blood?'Then it occured to me; is it not true that when I eat some bread and drink some wine, don't they become part of my flesh, and part of my blood?" I then thanked our most merciful Saviour for taking something so simple and easy for us to understand in order to give us His most loving gift."

Let us who are in the fold of the Holy Orthodox Church rejoice in the Truth, and humbly thank God for His manifest mercy!

Love,

Fr. A.

[Waldemar]

A challenge well met:

At one time Father B. went to a village on business for his monastery. The villagers came to him as soon as he arrived asking him persistently to help them defend the Truth before an Evangelical preacher who, using quotations from the Bible, was bothering them greatly with slanders regarding the veneration of saints and the Theotokos. The monk was simple and almost illiterate, and he felt awkward. But after he had thought for a while, recalling all he had frequently read about the saints and their lives, he invited the Protestant preacher to meet with him and proposed this:

"Let us light a fire," he said, "in the middle of the village square. Each one of us will go through it and let God prove this way which from the two of us has the Truth."

Very early the next morning, the villagers gathered wood and piled it up in a great heap in the middle of the square. Father B. arrived, but the preacher did not come. He had fled, taking the first boat out at daylight. The whole village raised cries for joy for the glorious victory over the teachings of human deceit. When Father B. returned to the monastery, the other monks asked him: "Were you prepared to go through the fire?"

"I was anxious, but I did not doubt our faith, and I thought, 'On this earth you deserve nothing, but to be in hell. It would be better if you burned here on earth than to be burning through all eternity: Let us then enter into the fire'." Thus did this deeply humble, simple monk defend our Faith - just as had the first martyrs and the spiritual fathers before him.

&#40;<u>An Anthonite Gerontikon</u>, Holy Monastery of St. Gregory Palamas, 1991, p.53&#41;

[Waldemar]

Gerontissa Gabriella said:

Once when I was there where I was, some foreign missionary came and said to me, “You may be a good woman, but you’re not a good Christian.”

I said, “Why?”

“Because you have been here so long and you only go about speaking English. What local languages have you learned?”

I said to him, “I haven’t managed to learn any of the local languages, because I travel a great deal from place to place. As soon as I learn one dialect, they start speaking another. I’ve only learned ‘Good morning’ and ‘Good evening.’ Nothing else.”

“Bah, you’re no Christian. How can you evangelize? All the Catholics and Protestants learn all the local dialects in order to.”

Then I said, “Lord, give me an answer for him.” I asked it with all my heart, and then I said, “Ah. I forgot to tell you. I know five languages.”

“Really? What are these five?”

“The first is the smile; the second is tears. The third is to touch. The fourth is prayer, and the fifth is love. With these five languages I go all around the world.”

Then he stopped and said, “Just a minute. Say that again so I can write it down.”

With these five languages you can travel the whole earth, and all the world is yours. Love everyone as your own--without concern for religion or race, without concern for anything.

[john choate]

Hello Everyone:

Just a few thoughts:

First, I don&#39;t think the Church Fathers enjoyed a little &#34;healthy competition&#34; when it came to the pagans, Arians, and other heretical movements. I get the impression that they recognized that any perversion of the Truth that Our Savior taught led those weaker ones to jeopardize their salvation.

Secondly, that being said, did not Christ Himself chastize the moneychangers &#40;in rather strong ways&#41; for perverting both the use and purpose of the House of God? Is this not exactly what these protestants are doing in Greece? These people pervert the Gospel. Period. Certainly we should pray for them and the ignorant ones that follow them. Yes, we should love them. But should we get upset that &#39;wolves are let into the fold?&#39; I think so.

While it would bring some comfort to me to know that some misguided &#39;missionary&#39; might become Orthodox thereby placing him/her on the correct path of Salvation, I shudder to think of those people that were misguided before he/she found the Truth.

Pray for me a sinner.

john

[Owen Jones]

What's wrong with evangelizing protestants? A lot of Protestants in America are confused about the culture, and Protestantism doesn't really have a culture -- a phronema -- to fall back on when the surrounding culture is deteriorating. So it becomes extremely stressful for a Protestant in the current cultural environment. That's fertile ground. But we are so defensive we don't want to evanglize; we just react.

There are a lot of wonderful Orthodox books that are readily accessible that would really open a lot of minds, but we keep our tradition hidden under a basket.

[Owen Jones]

Of course, it is in no way accurate to say that 98% of the people of Greece are Orthodox. It&#39;s probably more like 10%.

[Waldemar]

Father Averky wrote: “I know that we have all read these verses many times, and when I have heard Pentecostals say &#34;It&#39;s all in the Bible,&#34; I just smile...”

As far as a common language that we can all speak together, Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, it seems that the Bible &#40;even the expurgated version of the Protestants&#41; is our only option.

But when we discuss the Bible, it is important that we get beyond beyond the Protestant method of argumentation of throwing proof-texts at one another.

I have had repeated encounters with a zealous young Evangelical Protestant &#40;his in-laws live next door&#41;, a fresh MDiv from a Bible College that specializes in training missionaries in cross-cultural evangelism &#40;for instance, they have a Russian Studies program&#41;. Even after he learned that I was an Orthodox Christian and formerly a Protestant like himself, he insisted on trying to “share the gospel” with me.

I gave him a book and some booklets written by converts from EPism with these words, “I know about your faith tradition, but you know nothing about mine. If you would like to continue this dialogue, please read some of these so that you will know where I am coming from. This information will be useful to you if you ever accept an assignment overseas to an Orthodox country. At least you’ll know what you’ll be up against.”

A few weeks later he approached me while I was working in the yard with these words, “I would like to invite you and your wife over so that we can discuss, argue and debate so that we bring you back over to the right side.” &#40;verbatim&#41;

I asked him if he had read any of the materials that I gave him. He answered in the negative and this is how a three hour debate began. Our common language was the Holy Scriptures and so a good part of the debate was the exchange of Bible broadsides. It was going nowhere and I began to get tired of his prefacing each of his arguments with, “Let me throw this scripture at you...” Finally, I said, “Throw away, but you know there is nothing that you can ‘throw’ that is not a part of the Tradition of the Orthodox Church. One of your own preachers is fond of saying, ‘Text without context is pretext’. The context of the Holy Scriptures is the Holy Tradition of the Church. It’s the Church’s book.”

A friend of mine had just returned from Thessaloniki where he studied theology. According to the notes in one of my Bibles, the First Epistle of St. Paul to the Thessalonians is the oldest book in the New Testament. I tried to point this out to the missionary, “The Church that St. Paul established is still there! If you feel that the ‘original Greek’ of this or that text supports your version of the gospel, then let’s make an appointment with the the Greek Orthodox priest down the road and let him translate the Greek for us...” The Church that the Apostle Paul built is extant not extinct.

The point I was trying to make with the missionary is that there is continuity.

The“In the Foosteps of Paul” Mediterannean cruise package is popular among Evangelical Protestants. What do they expect to see? Ruins? &#40;Okay, granted Ephesus of “Ephesians 2:8,9” fame is in bad shape&#41; But look all around you! Greek Churches! Orthodox Greek Churches! Places permeated with Orthodoxy!

The mythology that the Church of the New Testament is either extinct &#40;Matthew 16:18 notwithstanding&#41; or corrupted to the point of death serves the purposes of these “Arrogant Evangelists.”

The problem when they get to Greece is that our Greek Orthodox brethren did not conveniently die off for them.

Fr. Averky, we can’t agree with the pentecostal’s “It’s all in the Bible”, but we can show them that they, or at least their ancestors -the earliest Protestants, are indeed “in the Bible”:



They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 2:19

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father Averky,

Yes, thank you for your message regarding the true use of scripture, the particular doctrine you point out was precicesly the one that divided Luther from Zwingly who was "of a different Spirit."

And Waldemar, your issue is what divided Luther from iconoclastic Karlstadt.

So John, of course you are correct, the wolves in sheeps clothing need to be discerned and routed, for their own sakes as well as the sake of the flock.

So yes, above all else, test the Spirits to see if they be of God, and test the "apostles."

But most expecialy:
Dear Effie,


How would you feel if thousands of Greeks, who happen to be Orthodox, decided that American Lutherans were not Christian,had not been "saved" by the Lord, were not spiritual enough for us, did not live in a Christian country and therefore obviously needed converting. Imagine us devising various strategies so that when we descended on your city we would go right to work converting people we obviously consider to be inferior to us. How would you react to us? Wouldn't you think "the nerve of these people!!"

Actually, I think the analogy would have fit better if the country of choice were Germany or a Skandinavian one, but of course America fits because I am American. There are hundreds of thousands of nominal Christians in this country who think it is a Christian one, and tens of thousands who actively fear the moral slide of anti-Christianity taking over the county. I personally contend that America is not "Christian"
nor can any country be. But your real question is about attitudes one group has about another and how those attitudes are reacted to.

To be offended when someone tries to convert me to what that one believes is the Truth tells me that I think of my own conversion attempts as attacks against people. Well, if they are, and they fall into the category of "demanding my own way," in their lives, contrary to 1 Cor. 13, then of course something is wrong with my attitude about the Truth I bear (which is Jesus Christ in the Unity of the Holy Spirit with the Father). OTOH, not to share that Truth is disobedience to the command to share it, as Christ himself did, in practical and verbal ways. But befor I do so, I will have to embrace, or be wrapped in His and His Father's own attitude toward people.

There is an attack, but it isn't against people, it is against the enemy that would keep people in the dark.

I am curious to know, Effe, what is the percentage of Orthodox church attendance in Greece currently? And do Greek youngsters stop communing at puberty the way the (admittedly non-Chalcedonian) Ethiopian Orthodox do?

But you askede me how I would feel. Presumably they would be Orthodox, as you said I think, then I would say, "Bring it On!"

I might add that I have known a Greek Orthodox man to have converted to Lutheranism in his youth because he was not "getting it" from his pastor. All I can do there is examine him (as much as he might allow) to be sure he hasn't lost any of what I see and hear as the Truth of Orthodoxy. OTOH, I knew an imigrant who was Orthodox looking for a church, and because he liked the "gospel" he saw in the practice of a co-worker of his who happened to be Lutheran, where he went to church.
He was not asked to re-cant anything when he was taken into membership, but after being in the country longer, and hearing from his Mother in "the Old Country," and the baby came, he found an Orthodox Church of some African variety (that matched what he was, I don't know whether Chalcedonian or not -- most of the people don't know the difference, so can't say). So he and his family "went back, for which I felt particulary good for him, and I learned something about refining the examination process.

Well, I am sorry if I offended you Effie, (or anyone else), but I just felt it needed saying.

Yours,

Richard

P.s., remember "All things work to the good for those who love the Lord." ---R

[Fr John Wehling]

Dear friends,

A friend of mine was telling me the other day that when he went to Mount Athos there were Jehova&#39;s Witnesses there trying to &#34;evangelize&#34; the monks!

I attended seminary with a young man who went to Bulgaria as a Protestant missionary and came back to America as an Orthodox Christian. The Hudsons had the same experience in Romania, and now he is a priest &#40;forgive me, I have forgotten his first name; is it Fr David?&#41;.

Let us pray that these missionaries discover the fullness of the Orthodox Faith and come home as missionaries of another sort.

Peace,
Fr John

[Waldemar]

Hi Richard,

You wrote:

&#34;And Waldemar, your issue is what divided Luther from iconoclastic Karlstadt.&#34;

Thanks for the info. Now was Luther or Karlstadt on my side of the issue?

[Waldemar]

Richard,

P.S.

What&#39;s my issue?

[Daniel Jeandet]

There used to be an indian monk in Melbourne. His name was Abuna Zachariah. I spelt that wrong. He was from the syrian Church in India. He was a really great little monk, so humble and praying always and I cant tell you how much love he had in him. We really loved him.

Once he was talking to a protestant, and the man was trying to convince Father Zachariah that the protestants were correct and the Orthodox wrong by quoting the Bible. He was reading things out and trying to prove his point, and Father Zachariah was just really peaceful and didnt say anything, just let the guy go on for a while. Then Father said, &#34;please, could you show me your Bible for a moment so I can look at what you are quoting to me&#34; or something like that. So the protestant man just closes the Bible, sits it on the floor and slides it across the floor to Father. Father just picked it up, kissed it, shook his head and said, &#34;you people say you believe in the Bible, but look how you treat it&#34;.

He was a good monk. He was monophosyte or whatever, but he always used to get upset about it and say, &#34;It is the Pope of rome, I am blaming the Pope of rome&#34; &#40;for the continuing division of the Orthodox Churches&#41;.

[Waldemar]

Richard Leigh wrote: I might add that I have known a Greek Orthodox man to have converted to Lutheranism in his youth because he was not "getting it" from his pastor. All I can do there is examine him (as much as he might allow) to be sure he hasn't lost any of what I see and hear as the Truth of Orthodoxy.

Hieromonk Athanasios the Iviritan said this about about what he saw and heard about the truth of Lutheranism:

The Protestant North, through the professors of our two Greek universities cooled our warm affections toward our sweetest Mother Panagia. Thus for a time was she distanced from our prayers as direct intercessor and mediator for us to her Son. Even some clergy, when discussing prayer, ignore the Theotokos and repeatedly refer to her as the 'first after the One,' meaning that she is the intercessor closest to God - whereas the hymnography of the Church through and through calls her by her blessed name. It is unacceptable that our Greek Orthodox Church should be influenced by such a rationalistic, Germanic, Protestant, spirit.

I was asked which is the right way: to say 'Most Holy Theotokos save us,' or to say 'Most Holy Theotokos intercede for us.' This question was influenced by some modernized, Protestant-minded Orthodox people whom I have considered most disrespectful enemies of Panagia. I replied to them: 'The accepted way, always, is to say 'Save us.'

A Lutheran minister from Oslo came to me once. He was a friend and student of Orthodoxy. We talked about many things. He asked me about the Theotokos. My reply to him was: 'We worship God, we honour the saints, and we venerate the only Mother of God with pure filial emotions, for she is our sweetest Mother by grace. Oh, how you are deprived,' I told him, 'becuase you do not venerate her who is second after God to administer His gifts to all mankind.'

(An Athonite Gerontikon, p.55)

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Owen, We haven&#39;t &#34;spoken&#34; since our political disagreements but I have been reading your messages and some of them impressed me. Is the 10% you quoted in your message from some official source?

Father Averky, I don&#39;t know the official number of Greeks who attend church regularly but I know that our town which has 40.000 inhabitants has 15 -20 churches and they are packed every Sunday.

On Feastdays you have to practically push your way in, so this, to me, is an indication that a lot more than Owen&#39;s 10% are church-goers. I think his comment though was that 10% are Orthodox. This I can confidently say is incorrect. A certain percentage of Greeks remember that they are Orthodox at Easter and at Christmas &#40;as my family did in Australia&#41; but that doesn&#39;t mean that they are any less Orthodox than those who regularly attend church every Sunday - not an ideal situation but it&#39;s a fact that we can&#39;t ignore.

Ask a Greek what he is even if he hasn&#39;t attended church for the last 10 years and he&#39;ll say he&#39;s Orthodox.

There is a problem with the young people today, because they have lost confidence in priests due to the things they read in newspapers or see on TV.. Unfortunately the media is more interested in negative news stories so if someone does something odd and religion is involved they will immediately pick up on it and report it. For example, and excuse me for mentioning this as it&#39;s quite rude, a woman who was estranged from her husband took his underwear to church and placed it in front of an icon so that the saint depicted in the icon would intervene and bring her husband back to her. This ridiculous gesture has been given a lot of publicity on TV the last couple of days. Young people hear about idiotic things like this and connect it with our religion and think that what this woman did has something to do with Orthodoxy.

So, there is a problem with young people but there seems to be a resurgence of religious feeling the last couple of years and I&#39;m hopeful that more young people will feel drawn to the religion of their parents.

Effie

[Fr Averky]

Dear Effie,

I agree with you. I do not know how extensively Owen has travelled in Greece, but in Athens, Thessaloniki, and several towns and monasteries we travelled to during our month there, the churches were open, and there was a steady stream of people ging and coming. One evening when I was walking by myself, I came across a rather small church during Vespers. As I went up the steps, I noticed that the church was jam packed with younger people. I did not go in, but sttod an prayed. Seeing that I was expected to met my party soon, I asked a young couple why they were there. They answered that so many came to the little church because the priest, an old man, was very much revered. On Sunday, thed czthedral was packed, mainly with young families, standing with their nicely dressed little children. I walked all over Athens, and went to many churches and people were always there.

We arrived in Thessaloniki jiust in time to attend the Great Vespers for the Feast of St.Demetrious. Th thousands stood outside. We were taken inside the basilica by respectful policemen, and we were in awe of the two very large men&#39;s choirs chanting the serfvice in exqusite Byzantine chant. The next way, we were invited into the altar, where we were givde the blessing of the relics of the great Martyr, encased in a sliveer mitre, were held out for us to touch our heads to them and to kiss the reliqary. Two days later, we were in Jerusalem for the Feast of St. James served in Greek and Arabic, with Patriarch Diodoros as chief celebrant. After the Liturgy, Metropolitan Timotheos walked up to me and invited me to a formal reception at the Patriarchate, but my group had already left, and I had to run to catch up with them. In Atnens, I was presented to Archbishop Seraphim, who spoke to me in Russian and English. My second time in Jerusalem, as Met. Timotheos processed out of the tomb of our Lord into the catholikon, I was standing by myself, just to the left of the entrance. As he walked by, he hesitated, and turned and bowed; I bowe back, and then he proceeded on. I think that we had recognized each other, even after 11years.

In Thessaloniki, we went into the church of St. David one early evening. The church is quite smal,l but there at least 30 people praying. One sight touched me deeply, a woman, peerhaps in her mid-50&#39;s was standing in front of the icon of the Theotokpon the iconostasion, and with her hands raised in suppilcation towards the holuyicon, she was chanting the Akathist to the Mother of God by heart! I wnet outside just by the entrance to rest a minute while I waited for my group, and in about five minutes I had been handed quite a bit of cash by several people who just walked up, pressed money into my hands and asked me to pray for their children. One woman, sobbing pitifully, told he her young son was into drugs, and opening her purse, she took out her prayer rope, and asked me to bless her with it, which I did. I happened to hand I gave it to her.

Every morning before we set out for our day&#39;s adventures, we stopped at the little church under the portico of the modern office bldg. in which St. Nicholas Planas served. As we stood praying, tens and tens of school cxhildren would come in and light a candle and pray briefly. One pleasant little boy came up and kissed my hand respectfully, and I asked why he and his friends came every morning. He said,&#34;O Father, our mothers have taught us that we must stop holy Mother will watch over us! I love to go to church!&#34; With that, he warmly smiled and left.

Every afternoon I would walk to the cathedral and light candles and pray for those had asked me and my loved ones as well. Every day I saw a young man in his early 20&#39;s come in, light some candles, and pray for ten or fifteen minutes and leave. One day, I greeted him, and asked him to please forgive me, but I noticed he was there every day. He told me that he was so grateful to God for the good and pious parents and family God had given to him, and that he had a good job and soon would marry a piousOrthodox woman. He said,&#34; How can I have all these blessings, and How could I ignore where they came from-no, I love God, and want Him to know I appreciate all He does for me.&#34;

When the precious icon &#34;Axion Estin&#34; was sent from the Holy Mountain Athos to Athens, it was estimated that over two thirds of the Population of Greece, and thousands of foreign pilgrims had come to venerate the wonder-working &#34;obraz&#34; image of the Theotokos. The icon arrived at Pieraus aboard the flag ship of the Greek Navy, and was escorted by thousands of small boats. It was then carried in a huge procession with almost all the bishops of Greece, and hundreds of priests, monks and nuns and a great throng of the faithful. Even though the Socialists were in power, it was taken to the presidential palace where all the government officials showed it respect, then it was carried down the street to the cathedral - what a sight! Our hotel was just a few blocks from the cathedral, and after the first week, by popular demand, the church was opened 24 hours a day, and the line was ten people wide, and a block long. Once, I saw a group of about 100 school children, all spruced up in their litlte uniforms, each carrying a bouquet of flowers for the Mother of mothers.

Every place I went , both times, I was aware that I was surrounded by Orthodox people. On my second trip, we spent our layover in Athens from Cairo on our way home in a lovely seaside town. I took a walk, and found a rather large church dedicated to one of my favorite saints, St. Nektarios. It was open, and the two women in charge were kind and respectful, and I left with my hands full of small boxes if incense, candles, icons, a prayer rope, and pictures of their grandchildre. I took a list of their names and those of their loved ones, and I still remember them in my prayers.

So Effie, if only 10 percent go to church, then I must have seen almost all of them! Well, this ends my travelogue. Sorry, I longfest post ever.

God bless you and Owen-pray for me.

your loving

Fr. A.

[Owen Jones]

Comments above point out the difficulty of defining who is or how many people are Orthodox. By some standards, I would not be. But, cynic that I am, I don&#39;t think you can count up everybody in town who attends an annual Greek festival as being Orthodox, and likewise, I don&#39;t think you can count everyone in Athens who turns out for a religious event. Athens has half the population of Greece, and my impression is that it is a typical secularized city with few church-goers. But then perhaps a person can be sanctified by his nation, just as a person can be sanctified by a spouse!

But I just tire of inflated numbers that are thrown around by various Church bodies, which, if used by any other organization, would be seen as fraudulent misrepresentation. I just like for us to be honest. If all of the religious bodies in the world that claim a certain number of adherents were taken at face value, and we added all the numbers, the population of the earth would quadruple.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Owen,

This one of those situations where it really doesn&#39;t matter what people think. As I havd mentioned before, people will &#34;understand&#34; what they wish. Perhaps, you did not notice that Imentioned one or two big occasions in a month-the rest of the time, it was in small churches in Athens, and all over Greece. I was well then, and every day I walked all over the sity, stopping into pray in churches as I found them. And you are right, Owen, I was not taking a census, I was a pilgrim, and I met many pious Orthodox Christians. Effie will tell you that there are no Greek Festivals in Greece.

You tell us that you and your immediate family are the most Orthodox people you know. You are the first person I have ever dealt with who feels that Christianity can be best found in Philosophy. I have never heard any of the Fathers say that..

Rejoice, who shows philosophers to be fools,
Rejoice, who exposes the learned to be irrational,
Rejoice, for the clever critics have been made foolish,
Rejoice for the writers of myths have faded away,
Rejoice, thou who didst rend the webs of the Athenians.
From Ekos 9.

Could you please tell me what you believe these words of praise to the Theotokos mean, Owen? Are they simply pious and sentimental phrases, not intended to be true, but are said to console the ignorant? Could you please tell me where I might find, either in the Scriptures, or in the works of the Holy Fathers that one could be saved by Philosophy and Cynicism?.

Sincerely,

Fr. A.
.

[Richard McBride]

&#34;...the population of the earth would quadruple.&#34;

Blessed of the Lord Seraphim

May we count on that as being a true and honest number? Say, 8 billion?

richard mcb

[Richard McBride]

&#34;I might add that I have known a Greek Orthodox man to have converted to Lutheranism in his youth because he was not &#34;getting it&#34; from his pastor. All I can do there is examine him &#40;as much as he might allow&#41; to be sure he hasn&#39;t lost any of what I see and hear as the Truth of Orthodoxy.&#34;

Dear Richard

There is more that you can do. Pray for him, since he may not realize the apostasy he is under; and pray especially that it be not a case of &#40;God forbid&#41; I don&#39;t care!

richard mcb

[Richard Leigh]

Waldemar,

Karlstadt was iconoclastic and led the mobs to destroy the statuary and other church art while Luther was away. Luther left hiding when he heard about it and strongly preached against such sacrilige insisting that they were not idols and were useful in worship. His argument was the same as the Chalcedonian argument against the iconoclasts, that Jesus can be pictured because he&#39;s incarnate, and that to deny the one is to deny the other.

Richard

[Richard Leigh]

Waldemar,

P.s.,

If you don&#39;t know, how should I?

Richard

[Effie Ganatsios]

Owen, even though you didn&#39;t address your message directly to me I am taking the courage to address this second message directly to you. Again as Father Averky stated there are no Greek &#34;festivals&#34; in Greece. Of course this really depends on what you yourself term a &#34;festival&#34; When I said feasts I meant the celebration of certain namedays that are some of the most important in our liturgical year. For example St. Nicholas 6th of December is the feastday of the patron saint of my city - another example is the 26th of October which is the feastday of St. Demetrius. Being Orthodox you are aware of exactly what I meant I think.

Let&#39;s be a little more generous towards each other. Whether Greece is 10% Orthodox as you mentioned or whether things are the way I described as I experience them shouln&#39;t be a matter of contention between us- I might be wrong of course about the things I said but is the number really that important. You also refer to &#34;standards&#34; and how we define an Orthodox person. Being Greek doesn&#39;t mean you are automatically Orthodox and I don&#39;t think we are guilty of this kind of arrogance but, the fact of the matter is that most Greeks know they are Orthodox whether they attend church or not. I have met seemingly pious, fanatic church goers - some who are very arrogant and look down on the rest of their fellow Greeks - and the last thing I would describe these people as being are Orthodox christians.

Are percentages really so important? I have found great wisdom in the Orthodox religion - I am still learning and I shall be learning until the day I die - but I think love for one another and humility are the main components for any Christian, whether Orthodox or not.

Peace to you Owen. I still haven&#39;t changed my mind about the political differences we had but I don&#39;t regard that as being important. Two people can vigorously disagree on many subjects - that shouldn&#39;t lessen their respect for one another.

I look forward to reading more of your messages in the various theoretical discussions on this forum.

Effie

[Richard McBride]

monochos: foolish disputes

In a few hours the Epistle for the Day will be read during the first half of Divine Liturgy. The scheduled reading is, Titus 3:8-15.

DYNAMIS&#39; commentary for that reading is worth reading. It leavens verses 9-11 with a &#39;reconciliation&#39; theme.

Another type of leavening may be had by reading 3:1-2, before going to today&#39;s appointed text. In part, that would read thusly:

Titus 3:1-2
&#34;Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.&#34;

Titus 3:9--11
&#34;But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.&#34;

&#40;From the NKJV&#41;

[Fr Averky]

Dear Effie and Richard McBride,

I am sorry to say that again Owen has come out and made one of his grand statements with essentially his opinon as his sole proof, but did not answer my question concerning salvation gained by Philosphy. In seminary, and in the monastery, were told not look to the Ancient philosphers for Truth, for while they wise, and could be said to have been on the very door of that Truth, they could only go so far because Christ had not yet become a Man. Of course, we can read them all we desire,but not in any spiritual or salvific context. There os much to be learned from their natural wisdom.

Holy Fathers of the Church, ancient and modern - such as St. Theophan the Recluse, stricly warn against trying to find in the mind, which he calls &#34;That rag market.&#34; When I glance on the section, &#34;Intellect, questioning, and Orthodoxy,&#34; I find myself thinking, &#34;Where, in all this &#34;philosophical &#34;posturing and quoting of an impressive list of authors,showing each other how well read and knowledgeable he is, can be found the Gospel message that we must approach our Saviour with humility and contrition? I can&#39;t imagine that God is in any way &#34;impressed&#34; by such discussions.


As I have admitted, I am not at all educated in these areas, am not by any means an intellectual, and I could not participate in such a thread. Yet, my motivation in saying this is not said out of jealousy or resentment; I am a simple monk, and I have to look at life in the manner I have been taught-that I can only find God in my heart, not in mhy obviously muddled head. For some time I have read in bewilderment men who are Orthodox christians looking at their lives not with what the Fathers have said, but by the words of various pagans.

Despite many of the good words he has written, Fr. Seraphim&#39;s message was much-colored by his own deep philosophical approach, for he was so idealistic about how he flet monasticism and the Christian life should be lived, he actually missed the point, and from the beginning, his monastic efforts wsith Father Herman were shown in the end to be a protracted fantasy world. Neitheer of them eveer had the esxperience of living humbly and obediently in a monastery, but having as they themselves ssaid &#34;stacks of rare old books from Old Russia,&#34; they attempted to learn and give monasticisms from books. Fr. seraphim&#39;s extreme views as to how &#34;simple&#34; monks should live and not be &#34;worldly&#34;, ended up with a more insidious pride and elitism, thinking his brotherhood&#39;s &#34;Norther Monasticism&#34; far surpassed long-established monasteries built on a firm monastic traditions. Having spent two or three days at our monastery, he condemned us as &#34;not being interested in spiritual ife and missionary labours,&#34; total nonsense, because for 65 years, first in Europe, and then here, we alone printed so many service books and important spiritual books, sending them to the Soviet Union, and we have sent priests and monks throuh out the world.&#34; Fr. Seraphim approached monasticism in his mind, and the monastery in the end turned out to be a house built on sand. The monks whop remain, have inherited a very unfortunate world-view, and have been tainted by Fr. Herman&#39;s prideful influence. This might seem to be off the subject, but it very much is.

I think it very unfair for Owen to constantly put down others, while I have never even once heard him once express any concern for any of us, tell us he has prayed for us, or asked for ours. To me, Monachos is not a Philospophical Society, it is made up of people, Orthodox and sympathetic persons, who see their faith unfolding in their daily lives through struggles, sorrows, and we help each other, teach each other, bear with other, and pray for one another.

If he feels that he and his family are the most Orthodox people he knows, then I humbly ask Dear Owen, whom I try at all times to show respect and make allowances for his occcasional shocking remarks, if he can please enlighten me where I have failed to understand the Orthodox Church as he does. Since he is a trained philospher, I would hope he would teach me how he has arrived at his understanding of the Church through the ancient philosphers like Plato and Aristotle, and also in light of more modern learned men.

Owen, I am not being insulting here; I am sincrely and humbly asking you to enlighten me in order that I might have answers, or at least be able to discuss matters of the Church in light of Philosphy, for I simply do not know how...Please instruct me how to tell a person who is seeking the true Church of Christ can find what he is looking for by reading the various people you have quoted many times.

And again, please explain to me the meaning of the words in the Akathist to the Mother of God in regards to the philosophers. I believe that when St. Paul debated with the Areapogites, he was able to convince only one...Being a pious Orthodox Christian, I would hope you could give me better understanding of words written centuries ago.

We always acknowledge our Russian Churc Abroad is small, poor and sometimes persecuted, but we have always been a lone voice in a modernist and ecumencal world, our bishops, simple and obedient monks,&#34;rightly dividing the word of truth.&#34; We have no festivals, or basketball teams, or fashion shows, or golf tournaments, or bowling tournaments-we have pious priests who tenderly look after their small flocks, living many times below poverty level, but doing so out of their love for Christ and his Church. Sorry, we do not fall under your generalizations. Yet Owen, President Putin himself asked to meet with our Metyopolitan and the lesser Synod, presenting him with an icon and a personal letter from the Patriarch of Moscow, lovingly inviting him to come to Moscow. We are small-even considered &#34;tiny,&#34; but we have held our Orthodx faith as given us for eighty years. For many years has the Moscow Patriarchate been desirous of a reunion of the two Churches. Despite our small numbers, we have quality bishops, monastics pastors and educators.

I care very much for you Owen, and many times have acknowledged the wisdom of some of your words, and always try not to be insulted by your haughtiness . but it pains me when you treat me and others members so shabbil. I have always felt that there is much depth to you,and that you have suffered greatly-please, don&#39;t step on me so.

I care

Fr.A.

[Owen Jones]

If one wishes to bloviate on the cosmic topic of Owen Jones, be my guest.

[M.C. Steenberg]

If one wishes to bloviate [...]

Loved this. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Averky]

Owen,

You&#39;ve lost all of my respect-you are just a pompous Episcopalian who never has converted to Orthodoxy-there is nothing Orthodox about any of your posts, they are composed of your pseudo-philosophical rubbish, filled with hateful cynicism and a marked lack of faith. Only those who like to indulge you in your unfortunate little mind games have anything to say to you. I am finished with you. How can you find God with such a twisted mind and with such low esteem for your fellow Christians, and most of all yourself-I really feel sorry for you. Stick to your &#34;intellectual&#34;fantasies, for you have nothing of any value to say to any Orthodox Christian. You would do better as a Theosophist. You are rude, insensitive and insulting, and far too many good and sincere people have put up with your hateful character and your snotty remarks for far too long.

You have no idea how to be a person who is respecful and humble before God and your fellow man. I simply cannot imagine what kind of a &#34;priest&#34; you must have been-the thought is frightening. Even having been a pastor, one would think that you would have learned to have a little love and compassion fore others and maybe that is why you no longer are. I cannot imagine you bringing the message of Christ to others, when you have never found Him. Save yourself Owen- as Fr. Seraphim said &#34;It&#39;s later than you think!&#34; You bring shame and disgrace to the name of St, Seraphim who was filled with intense love, mercy, and caring for all. Shame on you.

[Richard McBride]

xxxxxxxxxx

You said a blomos there!

[Janice Chadwick]

Father bless,

Thank you so much for your posts on this thread. I have a huge problem with humility and love--pride and lack of love &#40;especially of my enemies&#41; are two of my biggest weaknesses. It will only be by God&#39;s grace that I can overcome these weaknesses and learn humility and to love. I doubt that the apostles knew all about philosophy or all the big theological words. Many saints weren&#39;t well educated--some of them couldn&#39;t even read. The important thing is that they actually lived a Christian life and became like Christ. And when it really comes down to it, that is what it is really all about. That isn&#39;t to say that doctrine and dogma aren&#39;t extremely important, but it isn&#39;t the most important thing. The most important thing is to become like Christ.

I heard Fr. Thomas Hopko say on one of his tapes that sometimes doctrine and theology can be used to keep us from looking at ourselves and seeing ourselves as we really are. It can keep us from asking ourselves this question, &#34;if this is really true, then what about me?&#34;

Also, Fr. Averky, we know that you love us and that you love your spiritual children. Even when my priest gives me a swift kick in the rear end when I need it, I know that it is because he loves me.

I pray for the evangelists that will be coming to Athens for the next Olympics. I pray that God will open their hearts to Orthodoxy. I will also pray that God protects the Orthodox in Greece and that they won&#39;t be sucessful in taking them away from the Orthodox Church. However, I pray that those Orthodox who don&#39;t know what a treasure they have in Orthodoxy will come to realize it. I was Baptist before my conversion, and I praise God for bringing me to the Orthodox Church.

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Evangelists Thread

I hope you will forgive more of the obvious:
Tomorrow&#39;s reading from the Apostle &#40;Ephesians 4:25-32&#41;, as so often it does, strikes yet again to the heart of the matters facing me, so much that I can&#39;t resist pointing it out. The first three verses from the reading:

&#34;Therefore, putting away lying, &#39;Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,&#39; for we are members of one another.
&#39;Be angry, and do not sin&#39;: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.&#34;

Then, the commentary from the Orthodox Study Bible has quite a lot to say about this section. Referencing only 4:26-27, it reminds:

&#34;If you fail to master your anger on the first day, then on the next day and even sometimes for a whole year you will still be dragging it out... Anger will cause us to suspect that words spoken in one sense were meant in another. And we will even do the same with gestures and every little thing... Be angry with the devil and not your own member. This is why God armed us with anger. Not that we should thrust the sword against our own bodies, but that we should baptize the whole blade in the devil&#39;s breast.&#34;

richard mcb

[Fr Averky]

Dear janice,

Thank you for your kind words of understanding. You are right when you say that I always try with all my heart to approach questions with love, understanding and patience. But for those of us who least at claim to be Christians, we should all should try to treat each other with respect, not juist some of us. While it true that I have at times lost patience and became more passionate than I would have liked, I have always expressed my grief and repentence, and publicly.

However, I will no longer abide the ill mannered behaviour of those, who in a most cowardly fashion, relying on totally un-Christian philosophical prentensions, emerge and slap others in the face, insult them, and question the veracity of their words, relying on hearsay and their own limited view of things, only to hide behide disdainful silence. How can one discuss what is or is not happening in a place he has never been to? What utter nonsense!

I consider such people far worse than Tom Just and Mr. Tanner, because while those poor gentlemen are mired in the delusions of their errors. the person whom I here describe is much worse, for such an uncaring and unloving person claims to be the &#34;only he along with his immediate family ared the only real Orthodox Christians that he knows know.&#34; If I were the person&#39;s pastor, I would put him under ban for claiming by his attitude to be superior to others, which is a falsehood. and an insult to Christ


Janice, remain simple in your faith, and pure in your heart. As you pointed out, the Apostles were but simple fishermen, but God chose them over the &#34;learned&#34; Pharisees, who were sensless fools and enemies of God.

Thank you for you support, and remember me in your prayers. I look very foreward to reading your posts in the future!

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

My dear in Christ, Prfofessor McBride,

Thank you for your kind and loving words and your heartfelt concern for the welfare of others and the desire for peaceful discussions on Monachos.

As you well know, when I have not been pleasant with others, I have always, expressed my grief and asked forgiveness publicly.

Archbishop Averky, whose name I unwoerthily bear, a great preacher, a champion of true Orthodoxy, a pious and deep thinker, a prophet, seer of the times we now live in and an impressive author of several seminary texts and a well researched andhighly spiritual book about the Apocalypse, once went to a parish which had a small group of &#34;know-it-all&#34; trouble makers. During his sermon, he warned the parishioners that they should in no way tolerate people who live without a conscience. Sternly, he warned that such people are enemies of Christ, enemies of Church, and that these people are to be avoided; in a thuderous voice he proclaimed, &#34;Do not trust such people! Do not believe their evil words! Avoid them! Cast them out from among you! Such people are intellectual non-entities! I will send you an excerpt of that famous sermon.

As Christians, we of course have to &#34;Turn the other cheek,&#34; and so on, but there is a point at which the actions of others are not to be tolerated. St. Seraphim of Sarove, ironically the gentle and meek patron of Owen, tells us in his to monastics, that whnevere we encounter soeone whi is unreasonable and stubborn, try to reason with him, but after the third time, simply avoid having anything to do with him. I was reading one of the Ancient Fathers only today and he said that if a person attempts to introduce you to ideas which you have never heard of as being Christian-you are not bound to answer him. St Leo of Optina, a kind and wise man, would sharply coreect those who sid foolish or incorrect things. I am not so holy as those men. Prof. McBride, but I don&#39;t wish a person without conscience. I mentioned this situation to one of the confessors who is my friend of many years, and he shrugged and said, &#34;Don&#39;t waste your time-God will take care of it. There are several people around here who came to him &#34;seeking advice,&#34; but after a time, seeing that they had no intention of obeying, he told them to find someone else. We monks live our lives desiring to pray and to help others, but we are not stupid.

I contacted Matthew and told him I am not going to apologize on this one- I am not angry, I am just fed up. If you wish to accept Owen&#39;s rude manner and lack of simple courtesy, then as my spiritual Father says, &#34;By all means, help yourself!&#34; If you do-you will doing both him and yourself a spiritual injustice. As one wise man said, &#34;Why should we accept someoe for &#39;who they are,&#39; when we know they could be better? His soul too is in your hands, Prof. McBride.

You know you have my abiding respect. And I thank you..&#34;Blessed are the peacemakers...!&#34;
Christ,

Fr.A.

[John Wilson]

Dear friends,

unfortunately the evangelicals have already been here in Greece for some time.

Free Apostolic Church of Pentecost (http://www.christianity.gr/)

I had to laugh when reading through some of their articles in &#34;What the WORD doesn&#39;t say&#34; which has a number of topics obviously out to discredit Holy Tradition. In one titled &#34;That the Virgin Mary Betrothed A Widower With Eight Children&#34; they make the following bold statement:

&#34;Joseph was young, a carpenter by craft, and loved Mary and betrothed her in order to marry her.&#34;

I&#39;d log onto their forums and ask them for book, chapter and verse for that one, but my greek is still rather poor.

unworthy John

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Not to mention the Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses, who were imposing themselves upon a quiet street in Hampstead last Saturday, to the general dismay of all, heathen and believer alike. Does anyone have a convincing response to see them off, short of rudeness? And do they infest Greece as well as the UK?

the seeker

[Effie Ganatsios]

MA Jackson-Roberts, there are quite a few Jehovah&#39;s witnesses here in Greece as well but they don&#39;t go to people&#39;s houses and try to explain their point of view regarding religion.

They keep to themselves and have even earned the respect of quite a lot of Greeks because they work hard and really try to live as they think the bible tells them to. They refuse to serve in the Armed Forces when they are called up for their national service in the Greek Army because they are forbidden to bear arms. I&#39;m not absolutely sure of my facts here but I think that in the past they were put in jail for refusing to serve their country. Fortunately, the authorities saw the harshness of this and they now serve as medics I think. Again, as I said, I&#39;m not absolutely sure whether this is what is happening now or whether the law has been changed again.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

John, first of all, Hi! I was in Thessaloniki on Saturday ..... a busy and tiring day.

I visited the link you posted.

This church has a Creed which is in Katharevousa and is worded like the Orthodox Creed. I have to compare the two and examine the differences. This is quite sly because a convert will not feel that he is forsaking everything when he has a creed that is similar to the one he has been saying all his life.

I also read a couple of testaments from converts.

The first one I read stated :Ïé ãïíåßò ìïõ áñ÷éêÜ Þôáí ÷ñéóôéáíïß Ïñè&uuml;äïîïé êáé ìåôÜ ðßóôåøáí óôïí Êýñéï. trans. &#34;My parents were originally christian Orthodox but later believed in the Lord&#34;

It&#39;s quite entertaining to try and work out what they believed in when they were &#34;christian Orthodox&#34;. At the age of 7 this same person was baptized and then was given the gift of tongues, according to his testament.

This morning I downloaded some information about the charismatic movement in the Orthodox Church. The article is titled Charismatic revival as a sign of the times.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/sign/index.shtml

The second last paragraph :

&#34;Orthodox Christians! Hold fast to the grace which you have; never let it become a matter of habit; never measure it by merely human standards or expect it to be logical or comprehensible to those who understand nothing higher than what is human or who think to obtain the grace of the Holy Spirit in some other way than that which the one Church of Christ has handed down to us. True Orthodoxy by its very nature must seem totally out of place in these demonic times, a dwindling minority of the despised and &#34;foolish,&#34; in the midst of a religious &#34;revival&#34; inspired by another kind of spirit. But let us take comfort from the certain words of our Lord Jesus Christ: &#34;Fear not, little flock, for it is your Fathers good pleasure to give you the Kingdom&#34; &#40;Luke 12:32&#41;.&#34;

The Catholic Church believes that we are heretics because we separated from it in 1054 and other christian denominations don&#39;t know that much about us and think we&#39;re quaint if they think about us at all. Or, perhaps they think we&#39;re not even christian.

Perhaps it&#39;s time we started advertising ourselves as other christian denominations do.

Effie

[Fr Averky]

My Dear M A Jacson-Roberts,

A mildly humorous little story for you from my young years. When my father died, he had left us a number of properties, including several homes. One of my favorites wa a beautiful large bungalow on a quiet street shaded by many trees. There was little traffic in those days, so it was very peaceful

Our family was made up of avid readers, and while all six of us might be home, the only sound in the house might be a radio sofly playing in a back room. The house had a large porch, and it had as one of its many beautiful features, a wide walnut Gothic door.

One early afternoon when I was 12 or 13, I was sitting on the sofa reading, when two meek young women came up onto the porch and rang the doorbell, which had a rich and beautiful variety of tones. My mother came down the main staircase and looked at the girls through the screen door, and asked,&#34;And what might I do for you young ladies today?&#34; One of them answered,
Ma&#39;am, would you like to buy the &#34;Watchtower?&#34; My mother smiled and replied sweetly, &#34;I am sorry dear, but no, because you see, yesterday I bought the Eiffel Tower, and goodness it was expensive!&#34; The same girl said, &#34;Oh...&#34; They turned and left.

As she went to go back upstairs, she turned and said to me, &#34;Lovely little girls, but so simple.&#34; And she was gone.

Fr. A.

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Evangelism, you and Seraphim

Blessed of the Lord Father Averky

It is difficult for me to understand the trials the Lord is allowing you and Seraphim to impose upon each other -- those both known and unknown.

It is even more perplexing to understand my purpose in this complex of trials with which we are blessed. But I shall pray that Seraphim&#39;s soul is in better hands than mine.

I am certain, however, that my own soul and my heart are not peaceful enough to be those of a peacemaker. Still, I have been contentious enough in my own previous life to encourage a certain dismay now, at the confrontations of anxiety and distaste which have come over us all.

I know you suffer from your ailment. And I see from Seraphim&#39;s words an anxiety about certain things. But I also find some great insights in Seraphim&#39;s words, even as I have taken comfort in yours.

I am better for having heard from both of you, and I would prefer not see you so disturbed. Yet, as I said above, I cannot fathom the trials which have come upon you and Seraphim. I only know that they are allowed by the Lord.

Dear Father, please pray for the softening of my heart that I may understand these things.

richard mcb

[Daniel Jeandet]

I have a new technique for posting.

I type my post in word, then I save it on my hard drive. I do this sometime during the day. I only have internet from 1am till 7am, so I stay up till 1 oclock, then I open the post i wrote ealier, and I make the corrections that are needed, since in the meantime, I have had time to consider my words.

This way, I can avoid making silly posts that are full of my stupid brain efforts and heart sickness. I hope.

At least, face to face, if we say stupid things, the air takes them away from people pretty quickly, and memories can be healed. But on the net, it is so permanent. Please try my special posting method, its really good.

The people who post are not angels from heaven sent to make our internet world beautiful with their virtues and immaterial knowledge, they are just human strugglers on a difficult path in a very strange time, sent to train us in Love.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Profesor McBride,

Again, thank you for your kind words and good efforts.

And forgive me for seemingly have placed on your shoulders the spiritual growth, or in this case, lack thereof of another. In the end, we will all stand before God alone.

I am at peace it what I have said, for it was said firmly but not in a passionate outburst, but simply the public statement, that I don&#39;t like waste, and I will not involve myself with it.

Before any of us can make any substantial changes in our life, we have to take a long look into the mirror of reality; we can hide behind any mask or guise or pretense we wish; But Richard, God knows who we really are. For a long time I even tried to make light of the person in question&#39;s unkind and cynical remarks. - it is not pleasant to make a statement, only to be told in a haughty manner that you are basically a liar, or do not know what you are talking about. Sadly his own approach to Orthodoxy is a lie and generally, his opinions concerning philosophy are in no way in keeping with the teachings of the Church.

Imagine, a person who has never set foot in a particular country, yet claiming that his &#34;perception&#34; is actually the real truth! Professor, if you consider such a response to be a fair, intellignet and Christian, then do as you wish.

Let us pray for each other, and for that poor soul that we may continue to look, to see, and as the fathers ssrselves, wit God&#39;s help and mercy. Of course, one of this has been pleasant, and the tragedy of it al is that Owen does not care, and continues to hide. Strange that he would not, or could not answer my question about mention of the folly of philosophers in the Akathist to the Theotokos; perhaps he rejects that also, relying on his perception, which is not pleasing to the Mother of God and her Divine Son. But enough, I am finished with this!

With respect in Christ,

Fr. A.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Dear Fr Averky;

what a delightful story; thank you.

The trouble with many, if not all, JWs here is that their evangelizing/proselytising zeal leads them to camp firmly on somebody&#39;s doorstep and, once the door is opened to them, it is very hard indeed to terminate the conversation; indeed, they are trained to argue for hours, it seems. And they operate in multiple teams, saturating an area so as not to miss the chance of making a convert. Uncertainty is their best friend, so to state that one is a Buddhist is to put oneself beyond the pale, so to say.

Now I rate the Salvation Army more highly; they go into the roughest of pubs to sell their newsletter, the War Cry, and they do good works amongst the most unfortunate members of our society. But I have not the slightest desire to join them, nor do they actively seek to make converts. It is the latter point that turns many people off the JWs; they are like hornets in terms of their annoyance factor, though they are I suppose only serving their Lord in the best way that they know.

Now please would you remember me in your prayers, as I have to deliver a lecture on November 2nd on monastic music and liturgy to an Anglican audience. I am not going to attempt anything beyond my ken so shall restrict my efforts to western monachism; Gregorian chant, troping, and early polyphony, plus the latest attempts to adapt from Latin to English. I only wish that I knew more of the Orthodox liturgy; I have heard monks chanting in Bulgaria and met one or two single individuals in Crete, but that is all.

I hope I count in your eyes as a true friend of Orthodoxy, though I live outside the family; I certainly love the monastic way.

the seeker

[Herman Blaydoe]

Not to mention the Jehovah's Witnesses, who were imposing themselves upon a quiet street in Hampstead last Saturday, to the general dismay of all, heathen and believer alike.

Two JWs showed up on my doorstep some time ago. I asked them in. They pulled out their Bible and I pulled out mine...We chatted awhile. They are really not Bible scholars, their knowledge is very shallow and quickly delved. I referred them back to the OT, where God uses the plural "We" and the first verses of St. John's Gospel. After about a half hour they were telling me that they needed to be going and they had taken enough of my time...I said, no wait! Here's lots more to chat about!!!

I haven't seen them since...http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/sad.gif

Herman the simple

[Richard McBride]

monochos: trials

Blessed of the Lord Father Averky

You and Seraphim are troubled by different versions of this world. Have you found the purpose for Seraphim&#39;s presence on your path?

I pray that you do not give in to your illness and forsake Seraphim, and thereby loose the blessing that the Lord has offered you here.

In the same loving way that you helped me, I offer that I cannot believe that the Lord provided you with this chance without a purpose in Mind.

I beg your blessing and I pray for your discernment of intellection and for health in your body.

richard mcb

[Marie Quirk]

Dear All,

Just a few words from my past experience. I had the opportunity to spend about 6 months in a monastery in Greece. It was my first visit to an Orthodox country and my first introduction to Orthdoxoy, as well. I was able to travel a bit around to different villages and cities to visit different Churches and other monasteries. It was a very impressionable experience that I think about often. I was also amazed at the large number of people who attended Divine Liturgy on Sundays and Feast Days at the monastery where I stayed. I was deeply touched by the devotion of the Greek people, so immersed in the Orthodox way of being and living.

A few years later...back in the states...a cousin came to visit the family and stayed with me. He had found Jesus a few years earlier in the Pentecostal Church. He kept raving about this wonderful preacher from GREECE who had come to his Church to preach. The Greek preacher was so awesome and he found it hard to leave the Church. Needless to say I was shocked. In my naivete I thought that all Greeks were Orthodox. I just could not believe that someone who was born into the true Church of Christ so full of tradition and the riches of faith and the Fathers could fall for such nonsense!!!

Peace and prayers for all,
AMAQ

[Fr Averky]

Dear M A,

May God bless your good efforts during your lecture, and may it inspire others to recall or come to know the beauties of Gregoriam chant. That chant, as well as Ambrosian, are part of my youngest memories.

I am also fond of earlier music, as such as to be found in the recent recordings by the group &#34;Anonymous Four&#34;. Have you ever heard the hauntingly beautiful Judeo-Arabic music from 14th century Spain? In many ways it sounds almost like Byzantine chant. I have a small but fine collection of CDs containing early Spanish religious and secular music. I also have some wonderful 18th century compositions from Cuba, and some magnificent recordings from Colonial Mexico.

Thankfully, the JWs do not go door to door so much any more here in the U.S. 89 percent of Americans say that they believe in God, and in fact, percentage wise, they are by far greater in church attendance than in Western Europe. However, many wil tell you that they do not like to label themselves as belonging to any particular organized Church. When I was about ten, the Sister Superior of my school, Sister Barbara, was very upset when three JWs came of all places, to the convent! A tough old woman. she soon had them scurrying down the walk in a panic. She had told them that they were damned souls, and then proceeded to colorfully describe in awful detail, how gruesome hell and its eternal tortures are - the one used to terrify generations of little Catholic children. None of them ever returned!

There used to be a family not far from here with whom I became friendly because the father had done a lot of gold plating for me. The two oldest children were from the wife&#39;s first marriage. The little girl, at the age of seven, on her own, began to get up on Sunday mornings to go to Mass at a nearby RC church. In time, again on her own, she took instructions, and was baptized a Roman Catholic. Quite remarkable, I should say.

Of course, I see you as a friend of Orthodoxy, and it is my hope and desire that one day, we will hear that you have made the step in that direction! Remember, &#34;with God, all things are possible.&#34;

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Marie,

Thank you for your story. having spen that long in Greece, then you will be able to undestand how many simple and pious people are to be found in Greece, No, they are not &#34;theologians, or even well read, but their Orthodoxy to them is like the air that they breathe, and gives them life like the blood in their veins. Russians are the same; they know that they have inherited the Pearl of Great Price, and it is an intrinsic part of their lives.

Your poor cousin; by deluding himself that he is &#34;saved,&#34; he is, in fact,to be numbered among the Lost. Pray for him.

Love in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Herman,

Well done, well done!

Love in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Professor McBride,

Please, Owen could care less about what I have to say- let us go on. Let God handle it.

Be at peace, I am.

Fr. A.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Herman; that&#39;s great - thank you. Either that method proves that teh simple ways are best, or you are, as I prefer to believe, a very subtle individual.

the seeker

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Herman; that&#39;s great, and thank you. Either it proves that the simple ways are best or, as I prefer to think, you are a very subtle individual who cuts right to the heart of any matter that he addresses, without superfluous verbiage.

the seeker

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

PS to my last post:

Yes, Fr A, I do know the recordings by Anonymous 4, who are sadly now disbanding after 17 years together. My ambition is to form a similar group in the UK to concentrate on bringing medieval music to life but we have the Hilliard Ensemble to reckon with. And I have sung a great deal of colonial Mexican and early Spanish music - by Lobo &#40;Duarte and another&#41;, Padilla and others.

That Spanish influence is, I understand, your own familial heritage. Mine is the wonderful legacy left by the Eton Choirbook, Old Hall manuscript and similar collectanea. One can only lament the destruction of old musical texts wrought by our so-called Reformation and wonder what that was all about in the longer term, since prayers for the Pope are now offered in many Anglican churches and the Roman Missal is now widely used in parish churches in the Diocese of London. The present occupant of the See of St Peter has not yet thought fit to rescind Pius V&#39;s Bull of Excommunication against QE1 so we are all still technically in a state of schism in England, unless it was in practice a personal act against a single monarch and therefore its effect lapsed with her demise. &#40;I feel I should know these things better but I have no pretensions to being any sort of theologian.&#41;

It had crossed my mind to try the &#34;you&#39;re all damned to perdition&#34; act with the intrusive JWs but I am not sure that I could keep a straight face when pretending to be a Scottish Calvinist type.

the seeker

[Effie Ganatsios]

Father Averky, I’ve been feeling guilty that I started a thread that caused ill-feeling on this forum.

Reading your last e-mail, I’m glad that you are no longer feeling angry with Owen.

There are sincere, devoted, religious people in every Christian denomination, people who truly live their lives as Christ has instructed us to. And we find these spiritual people not only in the Christian religion but in others as well.

“...love every man as yourself - that is, do not wish him anything that you would not wish for yourself; think, feel for him just as you would think and feel for your own self; do not wish to see in him anything that you do not wish to see in yourself; do not let your memory keep in it any evil, caused to you by others, in the same way as you would wish that evil done by yourself should be forgotten by others; do not intentionally imagine either in yourself or in another anything guilty or impure; believe others to be as well-intentioned as yourself, in general, if you do not see clearly that they are evilly disposed; do unto them as you would to yourself, or even do not do unto them as you would not do unto yourself, and then you will see what you will obtain in your heart - what peace, what blessedness! St. John of Kronstadt &#40;My Life in Christ, Part 1; Holy Trinity Monastery pgs.34-35&#41;”

I included the comment by St. John of Kronstadt because it seemed appropriate for us on this thread. The writings of this saint speak to my heart.

Effie

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

The level of Christian charity evidenced in this thread is reaching an abysmal low. Private remarks should be kept private -- use e-mail or Private Messaging. This also goes for responses or reactions to private/personal remarks. Let&#39;s move along to positive discussion.

INXC, Matthew

[Moses Anthony]

Dear All,

Earlier this month after someone posteed their web address, I went there and printed out the report Christian Witness to Nominal Christians Among the Orthodox. It's a 34 page report, with the last 3 1/2 consisting of appendices and reccommendations for reading.

The cover page has a rectangle near the bottom of the page, the last sentence is an indication of what's in the remainder of the report. The report is released with the prayer and hope that it will stimulate the church and individual members in reaching this large segment of the population. The entire report is an insinuation that the Orthodox are not Christians. And, from what I've read so far (19 pages) -the text of some pages nearly obliterated by notes I've jotted- it seems that although they did some research, only enough was done to substantiate that research was done, but not enough to come to the truth.

I've only been Orthodox since Pentecost Sunday of 1998; therefore, my apologetics may not be as strong as someone more knowledgable than I, in the Holy Faith. However; just from what I've read so far, the report twists Orthodox history, and as it indicated on the cover, does not consider those of the Orthodox faith, as true Christians.

Go to the site www.gospelcom.net/lcwe/LOP/lop19.htm (http://www.gospelcom.net/lcwe/LOP/lop19.htm) print and read the report.

the unworthy servant

[Richard Leigh]

To all and sundry,

It should be positively asserted that so called JW is simply Arianism, complete with an inability to be saved, if their doctrine were correct that Jesus, the Savior, is mere creation.

At least one kind of so called Pentacostalism &#40;the United Pentacostal Church&#41; is Sabellian Modalism, another heresy regarding the Trinity.

Whether any specific individual &#34;member&#34; of these so called &#34;denominations&#34; understands any of that and believes the teachings of their &#34;church&#34; or simply believes what the Bible teaches, naivly taking it for what their &#34;church&#34; teaches is another question.

Falsehood does not come from the Holy Spirit so, the defense against either &#40;or any Trinitarian&#41; heresy is to proclaim the truth about the Trinity.

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord
Effie, Matthew and all,

I find myself having to explain myself once more. I am not angry with Owen, I have no less love for him, but I personally do not like his attitude towards me and others.

Yes, it might have been possible to address my concerns privately to Owen, but the only time we had any mutual private exchange was when he angrily chastized me for making the remark that our present President does not like State dinners, but expects people like Crown Prince Abdullah or President Putin to be delighted to ride on a horse or ride around in the President&#39;s pickup. Any other time I attempted to approach him by private message, at all times trying to be loving and conciliatory, all I received was cold silence. He accused me of being a &#34;Norther Sophisticate,&#34; very funny, since we live in the middle of the sticks.

So please, all of you, accept that I feel I have the right to take offense for myself and others when we are being treated in a rude and dismissive manner. Matthew, I do not recall that you have ever said a single word to Owen about his behaviour-and you are right-it is not my responsibility-it is yours. For ursurping your place, I apologize. Is it too much to expect simple good manners, courtesy and respect?

Ever since Messrs. Just and Tanner assaulted Monachos, there has been a pall of nerves, for we were shaken by such agressive and stubborn behaviour.

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

Thank you for your good words-brief, but very revealing.

Dear Effie,
Thank you for your good heart.

James Anthony,
I always appreciate your words.

Professor McBride,
Your kindness always brings me comfort.

Herman,
May your blessed patron always inspire you.

Owen,
May you open your heart and reveal the love that surely is there.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Moses Anthony]

Father Bless

Fr. A.; Matthew

I remember as a Protestant that when confronted by the words of the person I was "witnessing" to as to why I was so dogmatic in my statements, I would at least think, "There's nothing wrong with being dogmatic when you're right." Time however, has tempered the spirit of my arguements!

I am not unlike anyone else, when although professing humility, if paid a compliment my ego is stroked, so whenever someone makes a coment such as Fr. A.'s, yes my ego is stroked, but knowing what I've typed I wonder what I've said that could make anyone so appreciative. My higher education goes no further than the undergraduate degree I earned in Fine Arts.

I remember that as a neo-pentecostal I was more than enamored with "power of the Holy Spirit". I also remember where I was at when God made the change in my thinking/attitude, so that I'm now captured by the power of a godly life, which as Paul wrote to Timothy, "...silences the questions of foolish men."

Before our small Mission folded (for now), the V. Rev. Fr. Michael Kaiser told us, "Do the services right, and they will come", when one of us asked about growing our Mission. There's no doubt a place for the 'one on one' evangelism, such as the Protestants have in mind for Greece during the Olympics (which I have done), but again, I agree with Fr. Kaiser, if we live Orthodoxy right, two-thirds of the evangelism will be over!!

Please forgive my wordiness.

the unworthy servant

[Richard McBride]

Beloved of the Lord Moses

Was the mission you mentioned in Florida?
Or did Father Michael go out there afterward? Or before?

I ask about him because we were a patchwork Anglican group which decided to open a mission back in &#39;88, wherein the Antiochiians accepted us. But after several months it became clear that the Western Rite was just one stepping stone for us -- that is for those who were left &#40;we were mostly old people, a few young couples, and the old ones were really seeking their memories of old Episcopalianism -- old Prayer Book and the 42&#39; Psalm Book&#41;.

We got our fist Saint Tikon Divine Liturgy from Father Michael. It was just like the Anglican service we had left &#40;with few exceptions&#41;, but it was just not the same for the old ones. They continued to wander around in the desert, looking for their lost memories. Being apostate never bothered them after they left Western Rite Orthodoxy. They were to far gone to care. Most are dead now.

It was an unhappy experience, and I think it goes with trying to patch Anglicanism into that Saint Tikon service. I am so sorry for those unhappy ones, who could never see the beauty in the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. It is especially sad, for I am so happy to have found my home in Orthodoxy.

Moses, do you know where Father Michael is now? Our priest at that time, Father Justin McFeeters, thought he was a great guy. Father Michael certainly did everything he could to help us get started. I shoudl think you were truly blessed to have him as your pastor.

God bless you and protect you in the difficult work you do, Moses.

richard mcb

[Fr Averky]

Dear Moses,

My words to you were not of &#34;praise,&#34; but gratitude. All of us have enough struggles with our pride, without thinking that we have done something. Our merciful God is the source of all goodness, especially ours.

However, keep struggling, and may God bless you!

Fr. A.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Fr. A. & Richard M.

I'd typed a post earlier, but in previewing it, I closed it before posting it. This is my second attempt, and more succinct.

The V. Rev. Fr. Kaiser was our liaison woth the Missions & Evangelism Dept. of the Antiochian Archdiocese. Fr. Aidan was our parish (Holy Transfiguration) priest. It was a pan-Orhtodox community, the other part being Greek Orthodox. When Fr. Aidan ws transferred Holy Transfiguration folded, but Holy Cross, a much older parish, is still here. The here, is in Texas.

Fr. Kaiser is still in Florida, with the Missions and Evangelism Dept. He is however the priest of a parish which you could find by accessing the Antiochian web-site Parish Directory.

To stay in the AOA, and under Bishop Basil's omniphorion, when our Mission folded my only choice ws to attend the nearby Western Rite parish. I prefer the Byzantine/Eastern Rite, but to me "church hopping" because of liturgical preferences, doesn't quite seem the Orthodox thing to do!

Fr. A.
I understand better now. Thank you!

the unworthy servant

[Nina]

I just read the following article and I don't know whether to laugh or whether to start screaming at something - what? the pine trees around my house???Christians Hope to Win Souls at 2004 Olympic Games
Charisma News Service


World-class athletes will be going for the gold next summer when the Olympic Games return to Greece, but believers hope to win souls in Athens.

Thousands of Christians plan to use the event to evangelize a spiritually needy country, whose language God chose for communicating the gospel to non-Jews.

Twenty centuries after the apostle Paul made history-making mission trips to Thessaloniki (Thessalonica) and Korinthos (Corinth) and eternalized the ancient cities through his letters to the Christians there, Greece today is anything but a Christian country.

Though 98 percent of the population belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, evangelical, Pentecostal and charismatic churches comprise some 0.14 percent of the population, or a mere 15,000 people out of 10.5 million.

But as the birthplace of the Olympic Games, Greece is poised for a spiritual awakening, Christian leaders told "Charisma" magazine in a forthcoming report on evangelism plans for Athens in 2004.

"The international church will focus on Greece, and there will be a global wave of prayer for our country that will release a wave of revival," predicts Johnathan Macris, a high-profile Greek Protestant and director of Hellenic Ministries.

"I aim at mobilizing 100,000 committed intercessors," he adds. "It is time for the Western church [in Europe and North America] to return a measure of the blessing it has received by way of Greece and through the Greek language."

Macris claims the Olympics are critical not only to saturating Greece with the gospel -- in August thousands of believers will come to Greece for evangelistic outreaches -- but also to reaching the 1.2 billion Muslims in the Asian countries that lie between Athens and Beijing, the host city of the 2008 Olympics.

Macris views the Olympics as a step toward a unified worship of the Antichrist as outlined in the biblical book of Revelation, which was written on the Greek island of Patmos. The worship of idols, and of man, is a fundamental element of the world's most famous sporting event.

Macris believes the 2004 Games will be the largest event of idol worship in world history to date. But he says God's plan is to mobilize an army of intercessors to pull down the "[spiritual] stronghold over Greece" for the purpose of opening the door to evangelism in the country.

Macris and local church leaders, though, anticipate a spiritual battle. An anti-proselytism law is in place, but church leaders and missionaries say the government currently takes little action. The general mentality of the Greek Orthodox Church and the public remains strongly anti-Protestant.

"The real problem is that the Greek are very skeptical toward non-Orthodox churches," Timotheos Antoniadis of Thessaloniki, who pastors a typically small Protestant church, explains. "The perception of Protestants as a threat is a [spiritual] wall that we need to breech!"

Antoniadis' congregation attempts to break this stereotype by reaching out to the needy, the poor, the prostitutes and the immigrants. In the last four years, the average Sunday attendance at his church has doubled from 20 to 40. Most of the new attendees, including Russian-speaking converts, belong to socially marginalized groups."


What arrogance!!!! As I said at the beginning, should I laugh or what? Do these people really believe this rubbish?

I think I can now better understand the person who started the salvation thread. I don't think he was interested in learning anything at all - he just wanted to show that he was a Christian but that apparently the Orthodox weren't.

Effie

Effie

Dear Effie,

It is almost 4 years later. Did they succeed? I am interested to know.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Dear Effie,

It is almost 4 years later. Did they succeed? I am interested to know.


Nina, where on earth did you discover this thread? I've just been rereading some of the posts. How I miss Father Averky!!!! What a wonderful soul - so passionate, so humble, such a lovely, lovely man. I still treasure the private messages he sent me.

Back to your question : no, they didn't succeed at all.. Greeks are too contrary, too cynical, too insular, too Greek......................................


Can't live with them, can't live without them!

Greeks love bashing the orthodox faith, but it is their faith. I'll give you an example : during the 400 years of Ottoman Occupation only a small number of Greeks converted to the Muslim faith, unlike some of our northern neighbours.

Here in my city, a minaret was never built, why? All the building the Turks did in the daytime, the Greeks destroyed during the night.

I very much doubt that an Evangelist could succeed where a Turk couldn't............LOL

The arrogant tone of the article was what I objected to but I suppose we are all to some degree arrogant of our beliefs. It is nothing new.

Effie

[Marie A.]

Thank you, Effie for this reassurance of how little impact the Evangelicals have in Greece. We are surrounded by them here and I find it difficult some times dealing with their constant upbeat attitude and their materialism. In fact, I know an Evangelical preacher who was invited to preach in Greece a few years ago and it could have been the year of the Olympics. He and his whole family went there and when I was told this I just went silent. I did not know what to say. I really had interior disgust.

Marie

[Nina]

Nina, where on earth did you discover this thread?

Not on earth, on virtual reality. :) Monachos is a treasure dear Effie, and I like to read threads now and then not only to avoid asking a repeat question, but also there is so much knowledge and wisdom and quotations from the Fathers here. But since you have been a member here for so long you know that better than I do. :)


I've just been rereading some of the posts. How I miss Father Averky!!!! What a wonderful soul - so passionate, so humble, such a lovely, lovely man. I still treasure the private messages he sent me. Memory eternal!!! I was not as blessed as you to get to "know" Father Averky when he was on monachos and in this life. But I love his posts, I learn so much from him! What a love for others, what an Orthodox attitude, what humility, what love for God and Orthodoxy! I can not even enumerate all what I see in his amazing posts and contributions here. When I read the post about his struggle and passing away - I started crying like I knew him in person. I am so thankful that I can read about Orthodoxy from him. I also read that he was not born in an Orthodox family, but became Orthodox later - and from his posts I not only marvel at his Orthodox soul, but also at his humility and acceptance and attitude. And he suffered so much from what I read. Getting to witness such an example as Father Averky is another reason to be grateful for monachos. Thank you Deacon Matthew!



Back to your question : no, they didn't succeed at all.. Greeks are too contrary, too cynical, too insular, too Greek...................................... Can't live with them, can't live without them!:) My non-Greek fiance would object to the first part of your last sentence. :) Even before we met he had Greek friends.


Greeks love bashing the orthodox faith, but it is their faith. I'll give you an example : during the 400 years of Ottoman Occupation only a small number of Greeks converted to the Muslim faith, unlike some of our northern neighbours. Yep! And do not forget the crypto-Christians. So I think that small number of Greeks that converted becomes even smaller.


Here in my city, a minaret was never built, why? All the building the Turks did in the daytime, the Greeks destroyed during the night.

I very much doubt that an Evangelist could succeed where a Turk couldn't............LOL

The arrogant tone of the article was what I objected to but I suppose we are all to some degree arrogant of our beliefs. It is nothing new.

EffieYes and that was maybe a media sensation, or another trick of the evil one for confusing people.

I will tell you a story:

Once, when I was in Athens I needed an emergency surgery, so they prepare me for the surgery. I was a teen, but I was brave and I was cool about the whole thing. The last preparation they did before taking me to the other ward, was ask me for my cross. I did not want to give away my cross because it felt like my God was with me and I was giving Him away. God is always with us - but my cross materialized that protection, I could touch it and I think it was the source of my strength - that is why I was brave and cool before. Another thing is that my parents were not there with me so the only thing (familiar) I had was my cross. When they took my cross away, I started crying so much and I remember being wheeled from floors and floors and elevator and I would not stop crying like a baby. They told me that the crying is really bad before the operation so it is better to stop. I could not.

I really started feeling alone and having fear and I started praying to the Panagia. I told Her in my mind: "I have no one here to comfort me! I need you to appear to me and give me strength! I do not know how you will do it and when, but I need to see you before my surgery!" - ok... what was I thinking???? Surely I did not mean to say that I was so worthy as to have our Theotokos appear to me. I knew that I was not worthy of that and that is why I told Her "I do not know how you will do it" because I knew that I was so unworthy. My tears were rolling down like a river. At this moment the nurse stops the bed in a long hallway and I do not know where she went for a moment and left me there. I kept crying and looking at the ceiling because I was lying down.

Not even one minute had passed from my plea to Panagia that a door opens on the left side and because it cracked loudly I turned my head and I see a man in a white coat going out (of what appeared to be an office) and leaving the door wide open behind him. Exactly on the opposite part of the wall from the door there was a beautiful, very long icon of Panagia holding Christ! I can not describe to you my joy and peace! In that moment some residents were coming out of a room and seeing that I had been crying (because my pillow and face were full of tears) started patting my face and asking me questions and telling very nice, comforting words and full of love. In a moment the nurse came and took me to the OR and the anesthesiologist was a wonderful woman and we were laughing and joking and my surgeon came also who was a wonderful man too and he enhanced the cheerful atmosphere. They treated me like I was their daughter. Then they administered the anesthetic and I remember only being so full of joy, and even afterwards when I "woke up" I was only smiling and happy.

It is such a blessing, dear Effie to be surrounded by wonderful people, but that blessing multiplies if we have hospitals and other public places with icons and images of our faith. While I meet wonderful people everywhere in the world, I am not so sure if I could see the Orthodox icon of Panagia if I was let say in a hospital in Germany.

Our faith is a source of strength in every moment and icons are really windows to heaven - that is why our Holy Fathers fought for them. This display and easy access of religious symbols and objects; churches, monasteries, priests, monks, nuns everywhere makes it easier, especially in difficult times. Greece, Russia, and other Orthodox places have such a blessing! I wish we can make other places like those Orthodox countries.

[Effie Ganatsios]

The fact that all our messages are still online is both good and bad. In Father Averky’s case it is good because we are able to read his messages and we benefit and learn from them. In my case it’s bad because there are some posts I am ashamed of.

Father Averky was all the above things you said Nina. He was also not one to mince his words – there was no hypocrisy about him. On quite a few occasions he’d write something and then the next day his humility would allow him to apologize. I say “allow” because his humility was one of his outstanding virtues. Aren’t these forums on the Internet strange? We don’t know each other and yet through our posts, where we reveal ourselves, our minds and our hearts connect. I doubt whether it is as easy to reveal ourselves when we are face to face.

Father Averky loved his garden as much as I love mine, and we had some delightful discussions about nature and flowers. In the last weeks of his life when he could hardly walk, he would, with the help of another monk, go about his garden and was able, at least, to“deadhead” his roses. This is how much his monastery garden meant to him.

Re your experience in hospital : Did you really think, Nina, that our Theotokos wouldn’t answer your heartache and tears? You were so young and all alone and she sent her healing presence, via her icon and the wonderful people who helped you. All hospitals here have either a tiny church “exoklisi” in their grounds or a special room in the hospital itself. I believe the same is true of hospitals in the US. This linking of the physical and the spiritual might be something that is becoming a thing of the past in some countries but, in my opinion, separating the two is a mistake. We are not just our bodies.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thank you, Effie for this reassurance of how little impact the Evangelicals have in Greece. We are surrounded by them here and I find it difficult some times dealing with their constant upbeat attitude and their materialism. In fact, I know an Evangelical preacher who was invited to preach in Greece a few years ago and it could have been the year of the Olympics. He and his whole family went there and when I was told this I just went silent. I did not know what to say. I really had interior disgust.

Marie

I grew up with Protestants, Marie. I remember with love and respect a Baptist family who lived in our street and who went out of their way to help whoever needed help. I remember that once a week a Protestant pastor would come to our school and as there were only 5 Greek Orthodox in all 6 forms of the whole school, I would be part of a class which did not discuss theology but instead concentrated on the everyday problems of teenagers.
Both these men were fine men, a good example to young people, and good Christians.

However, the depth and sweetness of our Orthodoxy is something that, in my opinion, cannot be exchanged with anything else.

Effie

[Anthony]

Greeks love bashing the orthodox faith, but it is their faith.

I heard a story once about a meeting of world communist parties which had to be postponed because the Greek delegation wouldn't attend on Good Friday. (Great Friday.)

[Effie Ganatsios]

Communists yes, but Christians first. Maybe they should be kicked out of the communist party............

Anthony, reading your comment made me feel hopeful that even when communist ideals lure our young - of course real communism has proven to be nothing like the theoretical - the christian ideals learnt when young prove even stronger.

Effie

[Nina]

All -ism(s) like in communism, fascism etc. fail. Communism was served as an innovated Christianity - they replicated everything, but cut off the soul of it which is Christ and that is why it always fails. I can not understand how people can have Christianity available and be attracted to communism.

[Effie Ganatsios]

All -ism(s) like in communism, fascism etc. fail. Communism was served as an innovated Christianity - they replicated everything, but cut off the soul of it which is Christ and that is why it always fails. I can not understand how people can have Christianity available and be attracted to communism.


Absolutely true, Nina! You sometimes hear communists say :"But Christ was the first communist!". They fail to mention though that there is no heart, no soul in the centre of their brand of communism. Christ has been abolished, so what is there?

We have seen the results of "communism" without Christ. Greece and other Balkan countries, except for Albania, withstood Muslims for 400 years and kept faith. The Russians withstood atheist communism for nearly 100 years and also kept their faith. What does this say about Orthodoxy. It is powerful and just refuses to lie down and die.