Prostrations and kneeling

[Justin]

Could someone explain the do's and do-not's of kneeling (and prostrations)? Are prostrations ever allowed on Sundays? Do even monastics refrain from prostrations during the "appointed" times when you aren't suppose to kneel according to Nicaea (and other synods)? If permission is given to prostrate at times during these "non-kneeling periods," (like during a pre-sactified liturgy in the middle of lent), cna you also seek permission to prostrate as part of a more personal, less corporate, prayer time?

[Rade]

As far as I know, prostrations are not allowed not only on Sundays, but on Saturdays and Feastdays also, and this stands both for monks and laymen. But on this days you can practice small bows(metanias)-I don't know the right expression, because English is not my mother tounge. From Pascha till the Ascension Day, even these small metanias are not allowed. However, I often do get the permission from my spiritual father to prostrate during my personal prayers, especially if I will recieve the Holly Communion next day.

[M.C. Steenberg]

The general rule on prostrations is that they are not performed on the Sabbath (Saturday), the Lord's Day (Sunday), or days and seasons of specific feasts (e.g. from Pascha to Ascension). The underlying reason is that, according to this custom, prostrations are signs of repentance and sorrow that are unbefitting of the festal commemoration of the Sabbath, Resurrection and given feasts. Thus one stands on these days.

However, in some traditions (especially among the Greek churches), kneeling does occur on a Sunday (generally during the 'We hymn Thee...' at the paraklesis of the Liturgy). Such traditions stem from a different interpretation of the kneeling act, which is seen in these moments as being of reverent awe and respect, rather than repentance and sorrow.

In general, you will never see Russians kneeling on a Sunday (in strict adherence to the canons), while you may see Greeks doing so.

INXC, Matthew

[Owen Jones]

I suspect, Mathew, that the reason why Greeks have kneelers in the pews (and have pews) and kneel on Sundays during the paraklesis is because they were trained to do so by Anglicans. It would be interesting to know if this practice precedes Anglican influence, which was significant in America, but not limited to the U.S. The Church of E had enormous influence in the Levant and Cyprus and to some extent Greece, as a kind of protector during the Ottomon rule.

Of course, the real issue is what is the spiritual point of kneeling and prostrating oneself before the Lord. One can be a world-class prostrator and be the most self-centered person on earth, proud of one's piety and anxious to show it off.

[Justin]

Thank you friends, that was most helpful http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif


(Ignore this line, I just have to add more words to meet the minimum words requirement for posting ;)

[Clifton D. Healy]

In the Antiochian parish I attend, the congregation does a full prostration after the epiclesis.

[Mary Ann H.]

I see that I am taking up a very old thread, but reading the posts on the times prostrations are allowed, I wonder once again whether the Romanians are unique in their kneeling habits. It was very surprising to me when I first began attending the Orthodox liturgy in my Romanian parish in Germany that we all knelt for the Gospel, and that many people in the congregation also knelt for the Creed, for the Lord's Prayer and the Axion Esti. Then there are the prayers of intense intercession (at least ten minutes in our church!) and the hymn after the epiklesis: we kneel for all of this, too, and I think that in the case of the Romanians, if it were due to any influence from the western churches, it would be more likely to come from the Catholics than the Protestants.
We do make an effort to stay on our feet for at least a week after Easter, but we are generally all back on the floor long before Pentecost.
We also kneel for confession, not just for the absolution.
I would be interested to hear whether these things - particularly the kneeling for the Gospel reading - are customary in other jurisdictions, or even throughout the Romanian church.
Mary Ann

[Owen Jones]

It is, of course, impossible to do prostrations in my church...One must do them at home only.

[Mary Ann H.]

It is, of course, impossible to do prostrations in my church...One must do them at home only.

What I was really wondering about, Owen, was kneeling at various points during the liturgy, and especially kneeling for the Gospel reading. Is this something done at your church, or do you know of other jurisdictions where it is customary?

As for the prostrations, are they not done at your church because you only have services on Sunday? Forgive me for my curiosity.

Mary Ann

[Joshua G.]

I suspect, Mathew, that the reason why Greeks have kneelers in the pews (and have pews) and kneel on Sundays during the paraklesis is because they were trained to do so by Anglicans. It would be interesting to know if this practice precedes Anglican influence, which was significant in America, but not limited to the U.S. The Church of E had enormous influence in the Levant and Cyprus and to some extent Greece, as a kind of protector during the Ottomon rule.

Of course, the real issue is what is the spiritual point of kneeling and prostrating oneself before the Lord. One can be a world-class prostrator and be the most self-centered person on earth, proud of one's piety and anxious to show it off.

That can be said about any piety and the Orthodox have plenty. It's easy to light a candle, kiss and icon and prostrate before the cross and be all of this.

I think that western Christians would say that prostrations, kneeling and so on train your body to realize what is happening. And Orthodox would have to agree with that general sentiment. Prostrations certainly play a large role in our prayer life even not in most congregations on Sunday.

On Wednesdays Fridays during Lent we celebrate the PreSanctified Liturgy of St Gregory, Pope of Rome (as you know) and the congregation is expected to make full prostrations in public.

I realize this thread is about kneeling, but both are pieties that are used to train the body to match the soul, which is why the Canons say that it is best not to prostrate (or kneel? I don't remember which one it talks about; Canon XX) on Sundays becuase our soul should be overjoyed by the unique focus that "eighth day" gives to the Resurrection of our Lord.

Joshua

[Joshua G.]

Does anyone know of a link that explains when to kneel or prostrate during the Presanctified Liturgy in the Russian tradition? My priest asked if I could find something online like this that we could then pass out to worshippers on Wednesdays.

Thanks in advance.

Joshua

[Paul Cowan]

The best cheat sheet is to have the people do whatever the priest does.

[Joshua G.]

There are times when the doors are closed and they can't see him. He sent me out tonight, but they don't get that they are supposed to prostrate with me. They're not sure if, because I am wearing the fancy purple robe, prostrations are something I get to do.

I did find this in a quote of an OCA source (apparently) that says this:


At the Divine Liturgy we make prostrations:

* at the beginning of "It is meet and right to worship Father, Son and..."
* at the end of the prayer, "We praise Thee, we bless..."
* at the end of the prayer, "It is truly meet to bless thee, the Theotokos" (or whatever hymn is used in its place)
* at the beginning of the Lord's Prayer
* when the Holy Gifts are brought out for communion
* when, afterwards, the priest, holding the Gifts, says "Always, now and ever..." (except for those who have communed, who should simply bow) Note: Although prostrations are not enjoined for Saturdays, it is a common practice to make prostrations on that day during the Divine Liturgy at the points indicated above.

What's odd is that the same text talked about how prostrations are "forbidden" by Canon XX. They do say something short about the Presanctified Liturgy and how prostrations happen after the Prayer of St Ephraim, but the part I quoted above is just kind of thrown at the end of the article, no real context. Does this look like it could be applied to the Presanctified Liturgy? Anything missing or extra?

Thanks everyone,

Joshua

[Father David Moser]

The best solution is to pass out books with the text of the service and instructions about what is done at what point. St John of Kronstadt Press publishes such a booklet, and I believe that SVS does as well.

Almost forgot - there is also availablefrom the Western American Diocese of ROCOR a video on "serving the presanctified divine liturgy" that can be shown as an educational video for clergy and laity alike. The priest can then, as a part of the discussion explain what to do when to the people.


Fr David Moser

[Mikhail R.]

I assume this is almost definitely not set in stone, but I ask nonetheless:

When we pray our private morning and evening prayers (particularly in the Slavic tradition, as I am OCA), is there a general pattern of when to prostrate and bow? Not necessarily rules per se, but at least some common traditions?

I tend to just naturally bow at mentions of the Trinity, "Through the prayer of our holy fathers...", "Glory to you...", "Now and ever...", and "It is right..."; and prostrate at the Trisagion and "Come let us worship...". It just felt like that's were it is appropriate, but my feelings aren't really based on much of a foundation. ;)



Now for two, slight off-topic, and possibly superfluous questions:

I have read that it is proper to either pray with you arms at your side, or pray with hands clasped/folded in front of you. Does it matter where in front we clasp our hands? I tend to naturally place my hands at about my naval, because then my forearms are more horizantal and I can pull my arms in opposite directions, creating tension in them. This oddly helps me focus. Lol. Yet, I feel out of place sometimes at church because most people have their hands at their side or clasped as far towards the ground as possible. I just can't do that and fully focus...I feel overly relaxed. Maybe I am just asking a dumb question, or am too uptight of a person. Lol.

Secondly, is holding my hands up during the "Our Father" Orthodox? I picked it up from from my Coptic friends and a few of the E. Orthodox at my church. Most don't do it though, and strangely, I went away for a few weeks and came back to find all the ones who did it in my church seemed to have stopped. Maybe they were told not to? I never do it in church, as most people don't, and I don't want to stick out, but I always do it when outside of church. I feel it highlights the specialness of the "Our Father" prayer, and encourages us to concentrate on what it says. Is this something that is allowed?

Sorry if I asked something that was asked elsewhere; it is 2:21am, and I am a bit tired to do a thorough search of Monachos. :)



-Mikhail R.

[Michael Stickles]

Mikhail,

You're right, it's definitely not set in stone and there are many variations. I'm definitely not an expert, but here are the common threads of practice I've found in my reading and observation.

First, the most common place for prostrations in private prayers seems to be at the very beginning. The two most common ways of doing this I've seen are (1) to say the Prayer of the Publican ("O God, be merciful to me, a sinner"), usually three times, with a prostration each time, or (2) something called the "Seven-Bow Beginning (http://www.orthodox.net/ustav/seven-bow-beginning.html)", involving seven short prayers, each followed by a prostration or a metania (the sign of the cross followed by a deep bow with the "crossing hand" fingers touching or almost touching the floor, if you are able to reach that far). During weekdays in Lent, it is also common to precede private prayers with the Prayer of St. Ephraim, including the prostrations and metanias. During times when prostrations are not called for (such as Sundays, and the period from Pascha to Pentecost), they are replaced by metanias.

The second most common place seems to be at the very end. There are also some prayer rules I've seen which have specific places in the middle for prostrations. And, of course, one's spiritual father may prescribe prostrations and/or metanias be done a specific way or in specific places, in which case you do it that way.

I have noted at our parish that during public prayers, metanias are almost universally done at the Trisagion and the "O come let us worship..."; I assume the same is probably true during private prayers. But there are lots of other prayers in the regular services where I've seen one or two or a handful of people doing metanias (just usually not the majority of the congregation). Actually, there are other spots where almost everyone does metanias, but I think they're mostly places which aren't in private prayers (like the threefold "Amen" after the priest blesses both the bread and the cup).

Obviously, if you have any doubts about whether a given spot is "appropriate" for a bow or prostration, or whether you should be doing more (or less) of them in your prayers, check with your spiritual father.

As for where to put your hands - the only thing I've ever heard on that is "don't stick them in your pockets", and even then it's not an absolute rule (I've done it myself in church - but only on doctor's orders, to help rest a partially torn elbow tendon). I remember once looking around to see how other people held their hands while standing, and there was a lot of variation (by the sides; clasped low; clasped at the waist; clasped across the belly; clasped at chest level; clasped behind the back in almost a military "parade rest" pose; etc.). Normally I tend to keep mine in whatever position I think won't distract either me or other people, which means it may change from service to service, or even during a service.

No clue on raising hands during the "Our Father" - that's not a practice I've ever seen (of course, pretty much every time I visit a new parish I run across at least one practice I've never seen before, so maybe I'll run across this one on our next vacation).

I think that a section of one of Frederica Mathewes-Green's articles speaks to this type of issue (though her comments were about fasting, I think they are more generally applicable):



In the Roman Catholic Church the guidelines are promulgated as part of Canon Law, and it is consistently phrased as an “obligation.” But for us fasting is a matter of what a parish actually does—as in a liturgy the rubrics read “here we do this,” likewise when we fast “we do this” as a community. As a result, there can be variation from place to place in [what] “tradition” says.

A famous saying derives from this parish-by-parish variance. When St. Monica, the mother of St Augustine, was a member of the 5th century church in Milan, their custom was to fast on Saturdays in order to prepare for Sunday Eucharist. But when she visited Rome she was surprised to see that the Christians there did not observe a Saturday fast. Returning home, she asked her bishop, St. Ambrose, what she should do. He told her: “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”


In Christ,
Michael

[D. W. Dickens]

I've only ever seen prostrations in my parish when we say St Ephraim's prayer during lent and whenever my priest asks me to come behind the iconostasis to assist him with something (we always prostrate before the alter the first time we enter on a particular day).

As for kneeling, I have only seen a couple of parishioners do this. Our vigils are sparely attended, but a couple of people who do sometimes spend the entire vigil kneeling. Perhaps they are feeling particularly penitent?

[Paul Cowan]

Everyone in our parish raises the hands on the Our Father. One priest as most of us hold our hands waist level casually outstretched as if you were about to receive a hug from someone. The other priest holds his hands, what I thought was a russian tradition, up near his face hands facing outward.

I also remember doing this in my PC churches growing up and since 98% of my parish is converts, perhaps this is a carry over. I never asked. I guess if you don't have arms it is a moot point.

Paul

[Aidan Kimel]

In the local Bulgarian parish here in Roanoke, metanias (small prostrations) are commonly made in the Sunday morning Divine Liturgy at the following points:

1) Trisagion
2) "Glory to Thee, O Lord, glory to Thee" (before before and after the gospel)
3) "This is my Body"
4) "This is my Blood of the New Testament"
5) "In the fear of the Lord"

Some also make a metania at:

6) "Holy things for the holy"

The Epiclesis is offered recited, with the congregation singing the "We praise thee"; hence this moment of the consecration is not ritually marked by the congregation.

Are there other moments in the Orthodox eucharistic liturgy on Sundays where a metania is commonly made?

[D. W. Dickens]

Oh wait, I forgot, we do small bows to the Theotokos and then to Christ then the Deacon says, "Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God."