Dreams and dream warfare

[Arsenios]

This question has been on my mind since the day after I was baptized.

How do we deal with temptations in our dreams when we are asleep?

I am aware of and use the prayers for purity...

Does less sleep help?

Or more?

Or greater fasting?

I never used to do much [remembered] dreaming...

Until I was baptized...

Arsenios

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Keep confessing- but not in detail.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[leandros]

Brother George,

First of all, I think that Fr Raphael's advice is a wise man's advise.

Let me share with you my personal experience.

I have also such temptations in my dreaming. As long as I start to elaborate on why, and how, and what exactly I dreamed of, the temptation of the dream becomes stronger and stronger. Then I have to fight not against the dream itself but against my flesh that finds the oportunity to relate with the temptation as a renewed fantasy and finaly my flesh asks to assent to the temptation according to my abilities.

I also, as yourself, find my self in a deadlock. How could I control my dreams. I could not.

I have read that the Neptic fathers of the Church are giving the advise to trust the deliverance of such a situation into God's providence. By keep confessing and following the advice of our spiritual Father, God will finally liberate us from this temptations.

Brother George, we have to remember that every Christian has gone/is going through this phase of arrangement of the purification of the heart. Each one of us has more or less the same temptations to face. Do not become confused. It is a normal way to live your Christian life.

And I think that you are somehow disspointed by the presence of these dreams. Don't be. I personally thank God because He saves me from real temptations that I may not be ready to confront in my current status in real life, and that He trains me - in a way - to realise my failures in my dreams, so that I can avoid feeling any false self-justification.

Actually the passion-less status of flesh that several Saints of the Church were living is very dangerous condition when experienced by immature persons, like ourselves. If we could found ourselves as passion-less only for a second we then would became so self-justified that we may loose the willingnes for further purification of our hearts. That would be a real disaster.

St. Paisios said once: when you take a glass of water and you make it clean then you can see the water in the glass as it is. It may be all clean and fresh water and you may see through the clean glass just a grain of dust sinking into the water. Well, you will not ease yourself until you take the dust molecule, that defiles the whole clean and fresh water, out of the water. This is the way that Christians follow. From cleanness to more cleanness.(From purification to more purification).

Have faith brother.

Let me congratulate you for being honest with yourself.

[Ken McRae]

Are you able to share with us what you have done thus far to prevent the occurence of such dreams, or to minimize their frequency?

[Fr. George Morelli]

Christ is Risen! If I may offer some reflections on this topic as a priest-clinical psychologist. In all my years in pastoral and clinical ministry I have come across this frequently. Psychological research has helped me in clinical understanding of “unwanted thoughts and images both in dreams and in waking states. This modern scientific understanding can be so easily be built on the foundation of the wisdom of the Church Fathers.
Bizarre thoughts of any kind are ‘normal’. All of us are capable of being a ‘Stephen King’ in either our waking or sleeping state. Just this information alone is enough so to speak to de-energize the emotion behind such unwanted thoughts. For example. I had a young man who came to confession and said he had a thought and image extremely sexually blasphemous about the Theotokos. My initial response was “So!” … he was shocked …”but Father I just told you the thought and image … I said …”All you did was to tell me you are capable of having the imagination of a ‘Stephen King’. All of us are capable of this … the important thing is to realize the evil one often uses our own normal proclivities (how our brains work) to tempt us. Our Lord was tempted by Satan…from the outside … you are tempted by Satan from what is inside…..the important thing is how you respond next …. If you say “Ok no big deal … now “’Begone Satan’” this is in imitation of Christ…. If you upset yourself that you even had such a thought you will raise your emotional level and have more such thoughts.” For example if you tell someone not to think of a pink elephant and they keep telling themselves over and over again: “I must not think of a pink elephant,…. They are thinking of a pink elephant. On the other hand suppose I approach it a different way … Ok big deal you can think of a pink elephant. Do you want to? They say “No.” Ok so think of something else ….. The clinical key is view it as “common” but at the same time do something to rid the thought: ….:thought substitution.[for the committed Orthodox Christian it will be deep humble, loving dependent prayer, consenting or entertaining the thought is not either the appropriate psychological or spiritual response] I never cease marveling of the wisdom of our Church Fathers: How they had such ‘psychological’ wisdom: St. Peter of Damaskos says: “For the devil is in the habit of promoting in the soul whatever he sees is in accordance with the soul’s own disposition …. Quite simply, he inflames in the soul whatever material he finds there already.:[ Philokalia V. 3, p. 233] Jesus was not shocked that the Evil one would tempt Him He simply said “Begone Satan.” St Isaiah the Solitary gives us a way to substitute a different thought for the “pink elephant”: “…the remembrance of God dwells peaceably within you, you will catch the thieves when they try to deprive you of it. When a man has an exact knowledge of he nature of thoughts he recognizes those which are about to enter and defile him, troubling he intellect with distractions and making it lazy [note the emotional upset I touched on above] Those who recognize these evil thoughts for what they are remain undisturbed [my “So! No big deal” response to the young man above] and continue in prayer to God.” [Philokalia V. 1, p. 24] What better way to substitute an evil thought or image (even when awakening after a dream) than to say the Jesus Prayer, or some other reaching out to Our Lord in sincere prayer, in Love, humility, and dependency. Glory to God in all things.

[Irene]

The Jesus Prayer, say it every time you think of it - so much so that it infiltrates your dreams. The sign of the cross & prayer whilst you are dreaming chases "them" away.

In Christ
i.

[Arsenios]

Thank-you for all your replies -

The gauntlet was laid down the night I was baptized, and now is infrequent but really demonic, in that I enter temptations in the dream, and about the time of their fulfillment, I awaken so as to really be in a bad spot mentally to put the brakes on - I mean, I do not WANT to put the brakes on.

And I have tried the "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!" approach, and still use it, along with the prayers for purity, and the attacks just keep on coming, infrequently, but with really treacherous intent.

My priest is my acting spiritual father, and he just takes me out of communion for a couple of weeks, along with the provision of the prayers for purity - And I am sure he prays for me...

I was just in hopes that someone might be experienced in this kind of mischief and have some really practical suggestions.

Not sleeping might help?
More fasting perhaps?

I am not over-wrought or anything - Just puzzled at how to proceed - And am in the process of trying to find a spiritual father who might be knowledgable in this kind of warfare. I will be leaving on a pilgrimage to hopefully find one next month - Travelling down WA, OR, CA, and to St. Anthony's in AZ...

I do keep it confessed - And I am more irritated than anything with the recurrences... I probably am just WAY too arrogant to do what is needed - But I do have a hunch that this is what I am being called to learn to handle...

Thanks again - And I do go to sleep with the Jesus prayer repeating in my mind, and I hope in my heart..

Arsenios

[Alexis Flavian Bugnolo]

The spiritual masters in the West give this advice:

First you must recognize that there can be no sin, when there is no freedom to sin. And that any dream no matter how evil is not a sin. What is a sin is consenting to the evil after one awakes, and to avoid this 2 things are necessary: 1 avoid remembering your dreams by immediately praying every time you wake up, whether or not you have dreamed, and 2 striving to have purity of heart.

Now many try to practice virtue without meditating on the eternal damnation in Hell that awaits all sinners unless they repent. For if one recognizes truly what Hell is, one will have strong motives to practice virtue so as to avoid it.

Now the easiest way to obtain purity of heart and defend yourself against impurity, is to humbly and with child like confidence beseech the Most Holy Theotokos, confessing your utter inability to be pure by yourself, without Her special help and intercession. And to do this every day and most especially during temptations, by reciting one of the beautiful hymns in Her honor.

Another great help is to take St. Michael the Archangel as your special protector, by making a pact with him, where you promise to avoid all temptations and occasions of impurity, and you pray that he in return give you his help in protecting you from the devils who tempt you. This great Archangel is known to help many in wondrous ways.

Second, On the corporal level, one must recognize that the body is like a plant: if you give it too much fertilizer it is going to bloom and give fruit. Likewise nearly all bodily temptations that come to a man on their own, are due to eating to much rich foods, such as meats and other proteins, and especially today when godless men are loading foods with vitamins and minerals: all this is like fertilizer and makes the body suffering many impure temptations. It is good not to eat meat but once or twice a week, and to avoid drinking to much liquid or using too much salt. And especially to avoid idleness, and guard ones eyes from looking on impurity.

As for mentally, to keep oneself pure one must remove himself form all impurity: absolutely no pornography, practically no television or secular papers, which today are filled with advertising or scenes that are equivalent to pornography. One should also avoid public places or any other occasions when one is apt to see those dressed immodestly or any person who might be an occasion of impure suggestions. Even foul language from one's friends can be a temptation.

Finally, you do well to confess regularly, since no man can have the grace to over come sin, unless he is cleansed by Christ of his past sins and infidelities in confession. One will find that if one does not have the firm resolve to break with sin and to remove oneself from occasions of sin, especially impurity, then he will not receive the grace of Christ to persevere against sin in confession. In short Christ wants to give you purity of heart, but if you do not yet have it, it is because you have not asked for it earnestly and humbly. You need to confess that also.

Be assured of my prayers that the Lord deliver you. And let us all pray for one another.

Sincerely in Christ,

Br. Alexis Bugnolo

[Eleftheria]

Christos Anesti!

Try to get hold of the biography of Elder Joseph the Hesychast. Although he was a virgin, he was sorely tempted through dream warfare. Here is a gem from our spiritual father, "Temptations and getting through them is not a microwaveable process." In other words, patience, patience, patience....and of course prayer and confession.

[leandros]

Dear Brother Arsenios,

I think that this issue of dreaming became a very BIG issue for you.

I advise you to make an appointment with your Church's bishop to discuss this issue with him in person. Take the blessing for this meeting from your priest.

Brother, this is exactly a bishop's apostlate, to spiritualy guide and take personal responsibility for Church members spiritual life.

Your intention to search for a illuminated spiritual father is a good one. You can also ask your bishop for advise on this matter.

Let me propose that, you can not find the answer you are seeking in an internet forum.

You must keep in your heart that as long as you follow the directions that you take from your spiritual father in an honest and straightforward way, he is the one that takes the full responsibility for your. As long as you fully surrender your self to Church you are blameless.

To dream about a sin is not the same as the actual real life practice of a sin. The first is a subconscious function and the second is a conscious one. Nevertheless the purification of our heart makes both the consciousness and the subconsciousness to unite into one energy, which is the glorification of God. And for that reason every dream that it is not for the glorification of God (not just the carnal one) is in a way an indication that we are in need to restore this separation of consciousness and subconsciousness, in the same context that every real life action that we practise, which it is not for the glorification of God, is an indication that we need to restore our missing spiritual health. This unification of consciousness and subconsciousness into one energy, of glorification of God, is the main therapeutically treatment that Church is offering to us, and it needs time and persistence to be achieved through a three phase process: repentance, illumination, deification.

My point is that, if I was to dream that I am a wealthy successful businessman with power over people and over any human situation, instead of having carnal dreams, this would be an indication that I am in a far worst spiritual status. Because to have carnal temptations is an illness embedded in our fallen human nature in the first place, but to have temptations for superiority over others is a worse illness that I have introduce in my soul afterwards. In either case I need spiritual guidance from an experienced spiritual father.

I already said in an earlier post that I have also the same problem with you. So, let me say for both of us, that there is not a recipe that will takes us out of this state. This issue is about us, different individual persons appearing with the same symptoms of a common illness. Church is not providing the cure of this illness by eliminating its symptoms, but She restores our dispersed personalities in a way that we become insensitive (passionless) to illness in a transcendental way. Instead of making us strong and healthy in our own nature, capable of defeating the illness by ourselves, She provides the option to unite into the body of Church with Christ on Whom this illness of sin has no power whatsoever.

If we concentrate our efforts in becoming healthy then we fail to respond to Church's calling that is, to follow Christ bearing our cross. Our cross is our human nature that fails to be free of imperfection and faintness, and we must carry this self of ours as a cross while we follow Christ. I am not suggesting that we must follow our passions. I am just saying that in either way, following Christ, or following our passions, we still are ourselves, the same human beings with an imperfect and faintness nature, we still carry the same burden of being us. We can be no others, but ourselves. The difference is not in who we are, but in whom we follow: Christ or our passion.

"At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matthew 11:25-30).

My point is that the presence of these dreams or the absence of these dreams will makes us think that we are having a somehow worst or better self, regarding our self status. But we must understand that our strength, our quality is irrelevant to the meeting with Christ. What is important, is to accept our self weakness as a strength in Christ:

And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness "Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. (2 Corinthians 12:9)

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, (Romans 5:20)

Let me, finally, say brother Arsenios, that I hope these last words of Apostle Paul may be kept in our hearts: OUR WEAKNESS IS OUR BOAST IN CHRIST.

[Fr. George Morelli]

Christ is Risen! I eschew using this internet forum for quibbling … I do think that facts should be stated as such …. A statement in recent post rests on the presupposition of the correctness of the psychoanalytic proposition of motivated dreaming. In other posts and articles I have written I have indicated that psychoanalysis is not science. It is unethical (and sinful) to use a so called theory and clinical practices not based on scientific principles. God made us in his image, [as the Church Fathers tell us:] with intellect .. it behooves us to use it. Science is the method we can use to understand the nature he created. Adherence to a theory that is untestable, inconsistent, unparsimonious (psychoanalysis) is not using our intellect wisely. The current scientific research on dreaming indicates the content of dreams is mainly the content of what the individual has been recently exposed to in the waking state. No conclusions can be reached regarding a person’s psychological or spiritual state from dreams. Thus the statement:

My point is that, if I was to dream that I am a wealthy successful businessman with power over people and over any human situation, instead of having carnal dreams, this would be an indication that I am in a far worst spiritual status. Because to have carnal temptations is an illness embedded in our fallen human nature in the first place, but to have temptations for superiority over others is a worse illness that I have introduce in my soul afterwards. In either case I need spiritual guidance from an experienced spiritual father.

…has no scientific basis. Of course the writer’s suggestion to have the guidance of a spiritual father is of course excellent. Submitted in humility and thankful of the gifts [my priesthood and scientific psychological training and many others] God has allowed me to have … unworthy priest George

[leandros]

Dear Father Morelli,

Thank you for the detection of my mistake. I agree with you totally, but as you point out, in my last post I failed to clarify that there is no direct responsibility involved for the kind of dreams a person is dreaming.

Having said that, what I wanted to say was that, dreaming is a part of our subconscious "life" that it may, or may not, affect our conscious life. In the way that our consciousness is responding to our dreams, whether we like them, or not, as "our memories" of our non-real life, or in the way that we relate to them in a conscious way by accepting them as "projections of our conscious self", afterwards we are responsible for our conscious reaction to them.

In the examples that I have used, our conscious self in real life valuates the (dreamed) vision of our self as a superior succesful businessman, as he also valuates the (dreamed) vision of our self involved into carnal sin, in the frame of a hypothetical non-real world. Because we are so "personaly" involved in this subconscious non-real world, these evaluations are realy importand. Because they are so personal and exclusively ours, we are capable of keeping the results of these evaluations in secret, by lying even to our selves. For that, we need the spiritual guidance from an experienced spiritual father in order to "discover" our real selves.

Fr.Morelli, thank you again, for your clarification. I sincerely appreciate it.

I also apologize for my mistake, to all forum members and readers.

[Effie Ganatsios]

This is an interesting discussion.

George, you have been given good advice by the other posters. I just wanted to add the following.

I once read that our sub-conscious can be compared to a large basket full of the "goodies" we drop into it all day. While we sleep this "good friend" sifts through all the good things or perhaps the rubbish that we have exposed ourselves to during the day and tries to file it into some sort of order. Past experiences that you thought you had dealt with also have a nasty habit of adding to the mess in this "basket" and succeed in making things even more difficult.

I do however, try to remember my dreams because a. they allow me to recognize my true feelings about various people and situations - and not be tricked by what my mind rationalizes in order to present me in a better light and b. suppressed fears and thoughts come to the surface in our dreams.

I don't pay too much attention however to the content of my dreams because of the symbolism that our sub-conscious minds use. I am too inexperienced to be able to interpret some of these symbols and just leave the whole mess in God's hands.

My advice (even though I don't think we should give advice to others) is : read your prayers before you go to sleep and repeat the Jesus Prayer, breathly deeply. You won't believe how gently you will fall asleep - and your dreams will be sweet!

George, as you didn't remember many of your dreams before you were baptized, perhaps the fact that you are having so many now indicates that God is working inside your mind and revealing aspects of yourself that you need to concentrate on. Your spiritual father can give you advice about this.


Effie

Orthodox evening prayer : .....Grant me peaceful and untroubled sleep, and deliver me from every attack and design of the evil one."

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Just a general word of advice & not at all trying to be contentious with any of the very good things already said. Anyway I think what I will try to offer below has been already said in another way by others.

At times the images in dreams can originate from ourselves in our waking state- but very often this is not so. We must recall - as the Holy Fathers explain to us- that just as in the waking state mental provocations also come from intellectual (noetic) spirits- so they can especially have this source during sleep.

I say this mainly because if a person mistakenly ascribes tempting thoughts & images which plague them to themselves then they fall into a viscious circle. So we must turn the mental gaze (as when we struggle with other temptations while awake) away from the provocating thought or image & turn to prayer (often the Jesus Prayer is very powerful) and the sacramental life of the Church.

Having the above in mind we must understand that often the devil's end game is to cause us to fall into despair & confusion. Mistakenly ascribing the temptation to ourself is to accept the bait of the evil one.

In Christ-Fr Raphael

[John P. Nasou]

Effie - You show great wisdom in your comments about dreams. Those who = have read the writings of the Desert Fathers know well the struggles = they had experienced in their sleep and dreams. I, like you, have found = the Jesus Prayer to be an antidote for sleep interrupted by disturbing =

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thank you John for your kind words. I must confess that for me the Jesus Prayer has become my refuge for so many things. I use it during the day as well as just before going to sleep.

Father Raphael, I agree completely with you. I'm afraid I wasn't very clear in my message. I referred to only one aspect of our dreams when I mentioned our subconscious. I included one of our evening prayers at the end of my message but didn't elaborate on it. We are vulnerable when we sleep and that's why we ask God's help in our prayers. Something else that I didn't mention, although it is not very relevant to our discussion is the fact that dreams can also be prophetic - this has happened to me so many times that I no longer feel it is just a coincidence or even anything unusual.

I believe the main thing that our friend George should remember is, as you said : "... we must turn the mental gaze (as when we struggle with other temptations while awake) away from the provocating thought or image & turn to prayer (often the Jesus Prayer is very powerful) and the sacramental life of the Church. "

It's not wise to dwell on the content of some of our dreams. Certain things are natural and need not be agonized over. Pray and leave it to God. If you are sincere, slowly with time, things will improve.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Effie wrote


Something else that I didn't mention, although it is not very relevant to our discussion is the fact that dreams can also be prophetic - this has happened to me so many times that I no longer feel it is just a coincidence or even anything unusual.

Yes this is so & in other ways it seems we at times touch the 'other world' in dreams. I have often wondered though since we are so often warned by the Holy Fathers to be very cautious about paying attention to dreams how we can safely pay attention to certain other dreams? How can we tell that one dream is trustworthy while another is not? This is a real question.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Matthew Panchisin]

It's always the same answer Father, prayer.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Matthew Panchisin]

I should have added that I don't think that discernment is fiqured out in ones head. If it is God's will that we know or understand something than God's will be done. We have to trust in our God and our Orthodox faith. We have talked about God's will in the past from an Orthodox perspective. If my memory serves me correctly Owen once asked what is God's will?

Saint Hesychios the Priest wrote;

It is written: 'Not everyone who says to Me: "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father' (Matthew 7:21). The will of the Father is indicated in the words: 'You who love the Lord, hate evil' (ps. 97:10) Hence we should both pray the Prayer of Jesus Christ and hate our evil thoughts. In this way we do God's will.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[leandros]

Gregory of Nyssa: On the Making of Man

A Rationale of Sleep, of Yawning, and of Dreams

http://biblestudy.churches.net/CCEL/FATHERS2/NPNF205/NPNF2035.HTM#P3157_2093212

"6. It seems to me, however, that when the soul is at rest so far as concerns its more excellent faculties (so far, I mean, as concerns the operations of mind and sense), the nutritive part of it alone is operative during sleep, and that some shadows and echoes of those things which happen in our waking moments-of the operations both of sense and of intellect-which are impressed upon it by that part of the soul which is capable of memory, that these, I say, are pictured as chance will have it, some echo of memory still lingering in this division of the soul.

7. With these, then, the man is beguiled, not led to acquaintance with the things that present themselves by any train of thought, but wandering among confused and inconsequent delusions. But just as in his bodily operations, while each of the parts individually acts in some way according to the power which naturally resides in it, there arises also in the limb that is at rest a state sympathetic with that which is in motion, similarly in the case of the soul, even if one part is at rest and another in motion, the whole is affected in sympathy with the part; for it is not possible that the natural unity should be in any way severed, though one of the faculties included in it is in turn supreme in virtue of its active operation. But as, when men are awake and busy, the mind is supreme, and sense ministers to it, yet the faculty which regulates the body is not dissociated from them (for the mind furnishes the food for its wants, the sense receives what is furnished, and the nutritive faculty of the body appropriates to itself that which is given to it), so in sleep the supremacy of these faculties is in some way reversed in us, and while the less rational becomes supreme, the operation of the other ceases indeed, yet is not absolutely extinguished; but while the nutritive faculty is then busied with digestion during sleep, and keeps all our nature occupied with itself, the faculty of sense is neither entirely severed from it (for that cannot be separated which has once been naturally joined), nor yet can its activity revive, as it is hindered by the inaction during sleep of the organs of sense; and by the same reasoning (the mind also being united to the sensitive part of the soul) it would follow that we should say that the mind moves with the latter when it is in motion, and rests with it when it is quiescent."

[Matthew Panchisin]

Eleftheria had brought up a very good point. In Orthodox iconography you may notice sometimes chains around many of the desert Fathers and Saint's. The reason that they had those chains around them was to not fall asleep. They would be hooked up to a wall or chain above and continued to pray, precisely for the reason that Eleftheria had mentioned in reference to Elder Joseph the Hesychast.

[nurse-aid]

chaine my toungue, to the silence..
chaine my mind to constant prayer...
chaine my eyes to the ground...
chaine all my sences to the stilness...
chaine my heart to the tears of repentance...
chaine my body to the restless existance...
chaine my night dreams to the emptiness of me...
and all me O GOD! Cleanse and forgive for all what i give to others not in their need, but as a tempter of my own fallen nature, for this O LORD forgive, forgive!

[M.C. Steenberg]

In a post above, the following was written:


I have often wondered though since we are so often warned by the Holy Fathers to be very cautious about paying attention to dreams how we can safely pay attention to certain other dreams? How can we tell that one dream is trustworthy while another is not? This is a real question.

Don't.

The wisdom of the fathers on the matter seems, in general, to be that the ethereal reality of dreams makes them a confusing playground. The voice and vision of God may truly be present there, but so may the voice and vision of the devil; images may be prophetic, or they may be, as Dickens once wrote, nothing more than the midnight side-effects of a bit of food. Dreams may be the product of our wisdom, or our passions -- and such is the nature of dreams that they can slip between these categories, can intermingle them, in a manner difficult to detect; so what perhaps is an image of wisdom is united with an image of passion, all as one in the dream.

A useful ability to understand and 'read' one's dreams comes at only the highest levels of spiritual discernment -- a gift possessed by only a very few (remember the awe with which Joseph's ability to interpret dreams was met). For the rest of us it is a temptation.

I once heard it said that, on waking from sleep and dreams, the response to those dreams should always be the same. Whether one has seen the devil, whether one has received prophetic images, whether one has merely dreamed of day-to-day life: arise from sleep, make the sign of the cross, and move on to the work of prayer.

INXC, Matthew

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Dear All,

M.C. Steenberg and other posters have correctly pointed to the ambiguous nature of dreams. Although I am spiritually inexperienced, it makes "sense" that a high degree of spiritual discernment (and therefore of personal holiness) will be necessary to distinguish and separate good from evil in a dream. That seems to me to be why spiritual fathers advise Christians to ignore their dreams altogether. Is it possible however, that dream interpretation may be a charism in an otherwise not extraordinary person, and as all gifts one to be treated with seriousness and respect for the good of others? Could dream interpretation even be a learned skill, put to good or malign use according to our general direction in life?

In psychology, especially in the psychoanalytic schools, as Fr Morelli has pointed out, there is a very different set of assumptions about mental life and the value of dreams. Dream images and our associations to them are consciously explored and analysed for greater self-knowledge. No spiritual dimension is attributed to dreaming, or in some schools (e.g. among some Jungians) a positive spiritual value is attributed to dreams, which are seen as containing messages from our inner Self to our smaller ego.

Admittedly psychoanalysis is not a science (what is a science?). Is it possible that the choice between good and evil is always there in any aspect of human life, including dreams and fantasies, and what we choose to do with them? Is it possible that we can learn from our sins, voluntary and involuntary, indeed that honesty and self-examination are virtues - provided they do not become obsessive or prideful?

Questions I ask without knowing the answers.

In Christ
Byron

[Mother Evfrosinia]

Best wishes to everyone on the feast of the Lord's Ascension!

In my limited experience I have found that especially fervent prayer to one's Guardian Angel is very helpful in dealing with temptations that arise out of or because of dreams. You can count on your Guardian Angel to be watching for you and protecting you from such temptations when you yourself are asleep and unable to act.

As for discerning dreams, which are from God and/or prophetic and which are simply neutral and which are from the evil one, I feel that it's best to do as Matthew says, to move on to the real work of prayer. If there's something serious to a dream it will become clear soon enough, but on the whole it's much wiser and safer in a spiritual sense to consider oneself unworthy of any sort of revelation and to give no credence to any dreams.

In Christ, m. evfrosinia

[Warren Bensinger]

Mother bless /

Do you know of any web sites that would have prayers to our Guardian Angel to copy? As a convert I've spent the last 50 years trying to prove wrong all that I now beleave in so I don't have any depth in knowing about a lot of things.
Your help is appreciated.

warren
t.s.

[Olga]

The Jordanville Prayer book and others like it have what you need. There are also many online sources of prayer, for example www.orthodox.net/services (http://www.orthodox.net/services) which has all sorts of stuff in html, RTF and other formats. There are at least two prayers to one's guardian angel (morning and evening), and a Canon to the Guardian Angel which you might also be interested in.

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Brothers and Sisters

It is interesting (for me at least) that the topic of dreams is raised now that I have become tempted materialistically recently in my own dream on this Tuesday night.

It is unusual yet not surprising that the devil will put obstacles in our path.

In my dream I was shown a method of extracting gold from mineral deposits. The dream showed me the process and even the location to find the gold.

When I woke up, I thought that the dream was unusually detailed. I went onto the internet and typed in some key words and lo-and-behold the exact treatment and extraction methods were the same as my dream. To make things more interesting, this is the prefered method now. They don't use cyanide anymore, they use the more safer iodine.

I immediately thought that this was a trick from the 'you know who', but I was still curious.

I remembered the story of when St Anthony was constantly tempted with riches and the materialistic life. How the devil would throw gold in the Saint's path to see if he picks it up. He didn't even stoop down to look at it he kept moving.

I guess that's how we should be when it comes to temptations, dreams and visions, just keep going, keep moving and don't look back as did Lot's wife who turned into salt.

Life's too short to worry about riches and worldly things. Our eternal reward and our daily memory should be fixed on Christ.

In the Resurrected Lord

Kosmas

[Kosmas Damianides]

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Matthew 6:19-21

[Xenia]

I have dreams where the people in my life appear as caricatures of themselves. For example, the bossy people I know are very bossy, the godly people I know are dressed in white, etc. Nothing prophetic. I find these dreams helpful and a even amusing. Should I be ignoring them, do you think? I remember once I was asked to join a group of women who I thought very highly of in a project. I felt unworthy to be numbered among them and one night I dreamed that they were all dressed in white and going on ahead but I was left behind, still searching through my closet for my white shoes. I took this to mean that I felt unworthy to be in their group, which was true enough but I didn't actually realize how I felt until that dream. What do you think?

-Xenia
(PS- I haven't posted here a in very long time!)

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Xenia,

I can only give you the same response my spiritual father gave me concerning dreams. Don't take them seriously and don't pay too much attention to them. Usually they are simply a reflection of what is actualy going on around us.

There is no doubt that God does sometimes communicate to us in dreams, but as a monk once said to me, this accounts for only about 1% of all dreams. Godly dreams don't happen every day.

With your shoe dream, I know we Orthodox don't believe in non-scientific interpretations of dreams such as the use of mediums and readings of cards and coffee cups and palms. Therefore allow me to give a scientific explanation to your dream.

I would probably say that:

1) White is a symbol of life and purity.
2) Shoes are a symbol of dignity and your naked feet a symbol of lack of dignity.
3). Your closet is a symbol of darkness, mystery or even death.

Your endless search for your white shoes in the dark closet is your endless search for life, dignity and purity in this dark world. You most likely felt trapped during the time of this dream. This was most likely a wake up call from your conscience to finally get you out of the closet and stop looking for something which is not there.

You have to set your mind on the things of God, not earthly things and worries "But seek first his Kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." (Matthew 6:33).

On the other hand your conscience could be telling you renew your mind. "Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes." Ephesians 6:11).

By the way I'm not Sigmund Freud so don't take me too seriously.

http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

- Kosmas

[Xenia]

Your endless search for your white shoes in the dark closet is your endless search for life, dignity and purity in this dark world. You most likely felt trapped during the time of this dream. This was most likely a wake up call from your conscience to finally get you out of the closet and stop looking for something which is not there.

That's probably a correct and scientific interpretation as the closet I was looking in at that time was my old non Orthodox church.

Xenia

[Leandros]

Do you know of any web sites that would have prayers to our Guardian Angel to copy?

Prayers to Your Guardian Angel (http://uocofusa.org/resources/prayers/guardian.shtml)

Prayer to St Michael the Archangel (http://uocofusa.org/resources/prayers/michael.shtml)

Prayers for Orthodox Christians (http://uocofusa.org/resources/prayers/index.shtml)

[Arsenios]

Well, I just returned from St. Anthony's in AZ, and while there I asked a monk about dreams, and he claims to have great temptations in his dreams too. And his response to my query on what to do about them focused upon prayer at the going to sleep to ones guardian angel, and to the Holy Trinity, and especially the "Let God arise, Let His enemies be scattered, let them that hate Him flee from before His face..."...

He also suggested light sleep, so that at the appearance of temptation in a dream, one might awaken and renew oneself in prayer until the temptation passes. Thinner mattresses should help, or no mattress, maybe even just boards...

Plus strong repentive measures in the event of failure... Or even in the event of awakening because of being tempted.

Now I had been living under the illusion of the idea that IF I fell when within a dream, that I was but being victimized by demons, and was somewhat resentful of the fact that I would be pulled from communion for a couple of weeks whenever this would happen.

That is simply not true... I draw those dreams into me in my waking state, and consent to them there, as well as when asleep. THAT little bit of humbling truth was given to me AFTER I left the monastery, in a dream of temptation, then awakening, then consent while awake to the knowledge that if I only would go back to sleep, I would receive what I wanted from the temptation of the first dream, in a second. And this indeed is what happened, and the great grace that I was carrying from my stay at the monastery simply vanished, and I lived for the following two days as a very obedient servant of my sinfulness [visual] and lost my ability to pray with any effect...

BIG eye opener...

How now to proceed effectively is still a really big issue. "Unseen Warfare" is on my table... And a thinner mattress on my bed... And a new praer rule...

As the good monk remarked, "Glory to God! At least you know what, where and when you will have to fight your big battles! So what if you don't know yet how to fight them? That will come later!"

And at least I am not blaming anyone other than myself now... I did not like blaming the demons for my lack of communion - That just never felt right - And blaming my priest, which I had been refusing to do explicitly, was a feeling in my heart that I did not like either. "Except that you hate your life..." is making a lot more sense to me these days...

Arsenios

[Olympiada]

Note: This message moved to the present thread from its original posting in another conversation. -Moderator

Dear Kosmas I have one problem with what you say:


So when the temptation comes, do we turn our face and pretend that we did not see? Do we fantasise about what we have seen and bring the images again an d again into our minds? The Blessed Evagrios of Pontus (Philokalia vol. 1) tells us to allow Satan to work in our mind and observe how he works, then when we are aware of how he affects us we ought to rebuke him with great force saying "Get behind me Satan". In this way we accept our weeknesses and passions rather than pretending they do not exist.

What if we are given to visions? What if we are given the gift to interpret dreams? What if we are given the gift of prophecy or clairvoyance? Then what? Are all images in our mind 'bad'? Or are some messages from God? What if a person is a recognized dream interpreter. Then what? What does Saint Evagrios have to say about this? I think to make a blank statement and to say that all images in the mind ar e fantasies is wrong. Now I can not defend this position on my own but I have to express it. Believe me, I am fighting a *huge* spiritual battle.

In Christ Olympiada Kane

[Alec Lowly]

Olympiada writes:

"What if we are given to visions? What if we are given the gift to interpret dreams? What if we are given the gift of prophecy or clairvoyance? Then what? Are all images in our mind 'bad'? Or are some messages from God? What if a person is a recognized dream interpreter. Then what? What does Saint Evagrios have to say about this? I think to make a blank statement and to say that all images in the mind ar e fantasies is wrong. Now I can not defend this position on my own but I have to express it. Believe me, I am fighting a *huge* spiritual battle."

If I were dealing with a Christian who had any of these gifts, the first thing I would look for is evidence that he/she was loving, humble, and faithful, and doctrinally sound, because without these things, the gifts mean nothing, and may, in fact, have a diabolical origin.

The Holy Spirit does not ~force~ us. If we have images and visions in our mind, even if they are genuinely clairvoyant, and we are therefore unable to control our mind and be at peace, then it's very doubtful that these images and visions are from God.

In XC,
Alec, sinner

[M.C. Steenberg]

Without wishing to get too sidetracked into the matter of dreams in this present thread on human beauty (the topic of dreams is present in other threads in this Community: use the forum search engine (http://www.monachos.net/cgi-bin/mb/search.cgi)), the general advice of the fathers is to ignore them. Most often they are purely the wanderings of our imagination. When not this, they are a useful playground for the devil, not so much for him planting visions there, but for making us arrogant enough to feel that we can see deep and hidden truths from our own thoughts. God may 'speak' through dreams, the fathers do not deny this; but God speaks through everything -- dreams are hardly unique in this. What matters is not so much what or where God speaks, but how prepared one is to hear it and understand it. As Alec wrote above, if a person must be 'loving, humble, and faithful, and doctrinally sound, because without these things, the gifts mean nothing'. In Christ's words, 'They have eyes but they do not see, and ears but they do not hear'.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Matthew, I disagree. Some are given to dream interpretation, hence the Prophet Daniel. And I was not just speaking of dreams. I was speaking of intuitions , visions, prophecies, clairvoyance, all of that. What difference does it make? I know not. But to dismiss it all as the imagination or the devil is just as wrong. In Christ Olympiada

[Kosmas Damianides]

Dear Olympiada,

You have a very valid complaint and I also have struggled with this question in the past.


What if we are given to visions? What if we are given the gift to interpret dreams? What if we are given the gift of prophecy or clairvoyance? Then what? Are all images in our mind 'bad'? Or are some messages from God? What if a person is a recognized dream interpreter. Then what? What does Saint Evagrios have to say about this? I think to make a blank statement and to say that all images in the mind ar e fantasies is wrong. Now I can not defend this position on my own but I have to express it. Believe me, I am fighting a *huge* spiritual battle. In Christ Olympiada Kane.

No, blessed Evagrios tells us that not all images in our mind are bad. this is why we have to discern the spirits, if they are from God. So yes some can be from God. But I never said that All images in our mind are from God. I only presented a method described by Blessed Evagrios which helps us not only discern the good from the bad but to also uncover the traps of the devil and to rebuke them once they have been revealed.

As I have explained in previous threads, these gifts you have and many others,(I am sure also possess), can only be fruitful if we use them to help others. And they can only be of any use if they are truly from God. I would suggest that you ask God to remove these gifts from you if they are not for the edification of the Church. Ask God to remove them if they are not from God. You may not realise it at once, but there is a pleasure in having such gifts, it boosts our self-esteem and in fact makes us feel worthy to be servants of God.

But a Saint never feels this worthiness. He feels his or her unworthiness every moment of the day. A Saint does not pride themselves on having seen visions, dreams and prophecies, healings and suplications which have worked. The Saint prays for everyone but does not seek praise nor reward. The Saint genuinely feels as the least worthy, the most sinful and lacking in spiritual gifts. But how can one avoid these gifts when someone realises that they have achieved theosis that they are living a Spirit filled life? How can they not be filled with awe and a sense of acomplishement when they have healed people through their prayers, they have performed many miracles and have the gift of prophcy? What if they are filled with divine love?

What do we have, says saint Paul, that is not given to us from God? We are nothing, earthen vessels. God may choose anyone off the Street to become one of his Saints. The most insignificant person can become a Saint, not because we are capable but because God so wishes. The Apostles were chosen and taken from the most unlikely occupations, fishermen, tax collectors, St Paul was even an enemy of the Church. There are prostitutes, murderers, pirates, etc. who have changed their whole lives. God chose them not because the were worthy, but because He so willed, because they repented, yet kept on repenting every day.

St Evagrios of Pontus does in fact point out that not all memories and visions are evil, but he was referring to sexual temptations, to anger and hatred, amongst other passions which come to our memory. It is these that I was also relating to.

I am glad to hear that you are fighting a spiritual battle since it is through these battles that we gain the most. "For the Lord tests those whom He loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts." (Hebrews 12:6)

Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinner,

With Brotherly Love In Christ,


Kosmas

[Olympiada]

Kosmas, Thank you for your long and edifying post. If you have not noticed I starte d a post on self worth. Perhaps I am not to fight these low feelings of self worth, at least not based on what you are saying. I mean on the one hand my priest says I am adopted daughter of God, on the other hand the saints feel themselves to be unworthy. I think the latter is the healthier point of view for an Orthodox Christian. Perhaps I should rejoice I have a low sense of self worth for I have more in common with the saints than if I felt high self esteem. Interesting point for reflection. Incidentally I have a part time solitary vocation right now and have begun to read Saint Evagrios the Solitary on asectism and stillness. Thank you again for pointing me in the right direction. May you be blessed! In Christ's Love Olympiada

[M.C. Steenberg]

I disagree. Some are given to dream interpretation, hence the Prophet Daniel. And I was not just speaking of dreams. I was speaking of intuitions, visions, prophecies, clairvoyance, all of that. What difference does it make? I know not. But to dismiss it all as the imagination or the devil is just as wrong.

This is an inaccurate reflection of what I said in my previous post, which quite explicitly did not 'dismiss it all as the imagination or the devil'. I'd encourage a re-reading of my comments - not because they're in any way profound, but at least in order to comprehend what was being said.

The primary question is not how, and through what means, God speaks (for he always speaks, through every means), but how we receive and respond. As to particular means of 'hearing' God, the Church offers sound advice on which routes are trustworthy, which are useful. Such advice is ignored at one's peril.

INXC, Matthew

[Tim Grass]

I don't know of any Father anywhere who says we *should* pay attention to our dreams... or their interpretation.

--tim

[Olympiada]

Matthew,

I did not misread your post! I am saying that most discourage listening to God through dreams, visions, intuitions, hunches, feelings, etc and I find this dismaying as an intuitive, visionary person. I often feel judged to be honest for the way I think! To even discuss such a thing out in the open does not feel safe but I am doing it anyway.

I think I am talking about different ways of thinking, and the visionary thinker is in the minority. However the Philokalia deals with thoughts as does The Mountain of Silence. Logismoi. So just because one person is a visionary thinker does not mean they are experiencing fantasies from the devil. That is what I am trying to say.

In terms of hearing God, well that is something else entirely. I am talking about seeing God.

So you see we are talking about two different modes of perceiving God, sight and sound.

So perhaps you could direct me to what the fathers say on seeing God as opposed to hearing God.

Happy New Year
Olympiada

[Tim Grass]

What is a "visionary thinker"? ... ... ... ...

[M.C. Steenberg]

The problem with 'listening to God through dreams, visions, intuitions, hunches, feelings, etc' is that these are so often misleading, either in the content of what is heard/seen/inuited/'hunched'/felt or in how we 'read' these words/visions/intuitions/hunches/feelings, that discouraging attention to them is almost always the appropriate path. To think we know how to interpret a 'hunch', for example, is first and foremost to believe that we possess the discernment and spiritual maturity to know a real intuition from a mere wandering of the mind, or a demonic attack. The Christian is not called to find God by following visions, but by submitting in obedience to the will of God through the ascetic life. The only fathers of which I am aware who assign any positive value at all to dreams and such visions, are those in an extremely ascetical context, speaking to others in such a context in an extreme state of advancement, in the surroundings of strictest obedience. I cannot think of any fathers who encourage a willingness towards such attention to dreams, etc., in any other context -- and even within this strict context, most counsel to ignore them.

In Orthodox theology, 'seeing God' (the doctrine of the Vision of God) is not about visions; it is about so attuning one's physical and spiritual life to God's, that one encounters God fully in deifying vision.

INXC, Matthew

[Olympiada]

Matthew I really think you misunderstand me and perhaps I am in error to seek understanding. I am not talking about physically seeing God. I am talking about that mode of receiving information: feeling and intuition. Then we ca n judge what we feel and intuit. I do not feel I am going to get anywhere in this discussion so perhaps I should drop out. I am not going to be able to prove my point and it does seem worth it to do so.

Tim, A visionary thinker is one sees the future, who sees the big picture, who often see creative solutions to problems. I am searched visionary thinking can be researched on the internet.

Happy New Year Olympiada

[Mother Evfrosinia]

Dear Olympiada and other interested readers,
From my experience in the monastery I can say that I think you're right, and some people are naturally more intuitive, dream much more vividly and clearly, and have feelings and hunches that could be prophetic and/or clairvoyant in a certain context. However, that ultimately has very little to do with spiritual life and spiritual struggle; in most cases it's a hindrance, not a help, and such people almost invariably leave the monastery, because they,ve learned to trust their feelings and intuitions rather than or above and before those that they are supposed to be obedient to. Only someone of extreme spiritual maturity and with, quite literally, the spiritual discernment of a saint, could begin to sort out what is true and from God in such experiences, what is simply "feelings", neither here nor there, and what is from the evil one. Dr. Steenberg is quite correct to stress that the primary question in our spiritual lives is not how or by what means God speaks to us, but how we respond to that. Happy Civil New Year!

[Trudy]

Mother Evfrosina wrote:


the primary question in our spiritual lives is not how or by what means God speaks to us, but how we respond to that.

AMEN!!!

Is this not the purpose of a spiritual mother and/or spiritual father? For when a person has a dream (when asleep) or vision they tell their spiritual guide who, in the context of the church, prays with them to help them understand if what was dreamt is of God or not and how to respond? I don't think we ought to seek out those experiences or try to make them happen. But if they occur, it is best to seek help in understanding whether to dismiss them or not, to pray about them, and trust God will reveal what He wants the person to know when HIS time is right, according to His will. That is what scripture shows.

As to Olympiada's point of her being a "visionary," I think I understand what she means. (Olympiada, let me know if I'm close or not.) Often I hear the term associated with a person who is in a leadership position. For example, a president of a college can be considered a visionary when they have a goal or path they see before the institution, a place where they would like to see the college end up. Or perhaps a CEO of a company. Thus they are a visionary, the leader who lays the vision, communicates the vision, and leads the rest of the constituency to accomplish the goals seen in the vision.

Often they are people who march to a different drummer so to speak. I've not met anyone who is a visionary when it comes to the Church. Though those I've met who consider themselves visionaries, at least in the Protestant church, have often taken it into heresy.

Of those who I've met who are visionaries in the context of which I wrote above, they are humble and do not view themselves as such. Of those who DO view themselves that way, my very limited experience has me seeing them as full of themselves and blowhards.

Please note: I am NOT saying you, Olympiada, are interested in doing ANY of that!!!! I am using the example to see if that is what you are talking about.

As for seeing God, if what you mean Olympiada, is to see God the Father with your eyes, whether while awake or asleep, no one has ever seen God. Not even Moses.

Olympiada wrote:


What if we are given to visions? What if we are given the gift to interpret dreams? What if we are given the gift of prophecy or clairvoyance? Then what? Are all images in our mind 'bad'? Or are some messages from God? What if a person is a recognized dream interpreter.

Frankly, I think these gifts are far and few between. And if any of these things are occuring, then IMHO a person should beat very fast feet to their spiritual father, who in turn ought to (again IMHO) talk to the Bishop.

I've no doubt Olympiada that you are in a strong spiritual battle. That is very obvious to me at least. If I may be so bold as to suggest, you bathe yourself in prayer, carry your prayer rope in your pocket and pray the Jesus Prayer often, seeking God's protection. And keep talking to your spiritual father for he knows you best and can help by praying for you and with you to discern what is of God and what is not.

You're in my prayers, Athanasia

[Tim Grass]

I'd still be interest to know what "visionary thinker" means. Athanasia, you've given a kind of meaning that seems to be what it means in popular culture...... but I get the sense that this wasn't what was meant in the original post where it was used. If it's not about "seeing visions," then I'm still not sure what it's supposed to mena... especially as it relates to the topic of dreams and interpreting dreams.

--tim

[Tim Grass]

Sorry... somehow I missed Olympiada's asnwer to my earlier post asking "What is a 'visionary thinker'?" She said:


Tim, A visionary thinker is one sees the future, who sees the big picture, who often see creative solutions to problems. I am searched visionary thinking can be researched on the internet.

My concern over this is in how we take it.... there is plenty of history in the Church about "visionary thinkers" in the sennse of people who "see the big picture" and discover creative ways of dealing with problems..... but I don't think the Church has every understood this as a kind of person, but as a gift that comes through ascesis.... people "see the big picture" when they find discernment and learn how to stop seeing pictures that are their own inventions.

This gets back to the Fathers on dreams and such..... the basic advice of all the FAthers is to say "shun dreams and visions".... not because they're bad, but because people who think they have gifts for understanding them almost certainly don't.It's the people who are certain that have no gifts that have often been used by God in these ways. St. Seraphim used to get pretty upset when people said he was clairvoyant: he'd respond that clairvoyance is nonsense, and neither he nor anyone else had it (except maybe some, through some demonic power)... all he did was be obedient to God, and speak God's words.

--tim

[Arsenios]

I have wondered about the relationship of the monastic praxis of fighting off sleep in vigils [accompanied by fasting] to the arena of dream warfare. Is it, at least in the case of troublesome dreams, to force them out into the 'open' where they can be confronted consciously? Or perhaps to simply NOT give dreams the 'room' of sleep in which to launch their demonic arrows? Or is there no relationship at all? Or is it an idiosyncratic matter varying according to each person?

Mother Evfrosinia?? [Or anyone else with experience in directing monastics through dream issues.]

Rdr. Arsenios

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Tim and others,

Some interesting comments there on the Church's advice on dreams and visions. A few quotations from various fathers and sources to add to the conversation:

From the Prologue of St Nicolai Velimirovich:


The spiritists of our time accept every appearance from the spiritual world as sent by God and immediately boast that it has been 'revealed' to them. I was myself acquainted with an eighty-year-old monk who was respected by everyone as a great spiritual guide. When I asked him if he had ever seen any being from the spiritual world in his lifetime, he answered me: 'No, never; and praise be to God for his mercy!' Seeing my astonishment at this, he said: 'I have constantly prayed to God that nothing should ever appear to me, lest I fall into illusion and accept a devil disguised as an angel. And, until now, God has heard my prayer.

From St John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 3:


Demons often transform themselves into angels of light and take the form of martyrs, and make it appear to us during sleep that we are in communication with them. Then, when we wake up, they plunge us into unholy joy and conceit. But you can detect their deceit by this very fact. For angels reveal torments, judgments and separations; and when we wake up we find that we are trembling and sad. As soon as we begin to believe the demons in dreams, then they make sport of us when we are awake too. He who believes in dreams is completely inexperienced. But he who distrusts all dreams is a wise man. Only believe dreams that warn you of torments and judgments. But if despair afflicts you, then such dreams area also from demons.

From Saints Barsanuphius and John, Guidance Toward Spiritual Life, tr. Fr Seraphim Rose:


Q: I have heard that if one and the same dream appears to someone three times, one should recognize it as true; is this so, my Father?

A: No, this is wrong; such a dream also one need not believe. He who has appeared once to anyone falsely can do this three times and more. Watch, lest you be put to shame (by the demons), but pay heed to yourself, brother.

INXC, Matthew

[Father David Moser]

Without quoting the whole thing, let me just refer to St Gregory of Nyssa's work "On the making of man" where he addresses in part XIII A Rationale of Sleep, of Yawning, and of Dreams" particularly paragraphs 5 and following which specifically address dreams
[Click here to follow link] (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-05/Npnf2-05-36.htm#P3157_2093212)

Perhaps some of what St Gregory has to say will enrich our discussion here. I have not read this passage recently and only ran into it while "cleaning my files" (a common "holiday" activity). I will likely reread it presently and if there are additional comments will make them later.

Fr David Moser

[Alec Lowly]

Father David, bless ...

I read the section on sleep and dreams by St. Gregory and found only this of much use:

10. For this cause memory is confused, and foreknowledge, though rendered doubtful54 by uncertain veils, is imaged in shadows of our waking pursuits, and often indicates to us something of what is going to happen: for by its subtlety of nature the mind has some advantage, in ability to behold things, over mere corporeal grossness; yet it cannot make its meaning clear by direct methods, so that the information of the matter in hand should be plain and evident, but its declaration of the future is ambiguous and doubtful,-what those who interpret such things call an "enigma."

In this passage, the saint is beginning to come close to what we moderns would refer to as "the unconscious mind." Otherwise, all that talk about "vapours," well, please ...

What we can say, incontestably, is that the brain is in three parts, physiologically, with consciousness being peculiar only to the cerebrum. During sleep, the other brain systems are not inactive or "asleep," as scans incontestably show; the medulla is ~always~ active or else the person is dead.

The influence of these unconscious brain activities upon the sleeping consciousness probably accounts for most dream phenomena. But not all. Many people, including myself, have experienced what is called "lucid dreaming," i.e., one is dreaming, and within the dream, the dreamer wakes up, and realises that he/she is dreaming.

At that point most people wake up completely, but not always; some lucid dreamers can remain lucid in the dream state for some time. Those who don't realise what's happening to them come back reporting "mystical" or "paranormal" experiences, such as "alien abduction," for instance.

Can God work through dreams? He can, of course. He has. But what I would look for in such a case, based upon scripture and tradition, is clarity, specificity and accuracy.

Dream experiences in scripture and tradition are seldom reported as nebulous, confusing experiences. The angel came to Joseph, for instance, and imparted crystal-clear information, not requiring any "interpretation" by Joseph. Arise, go to Egypt, the Child is in danger. And that was that.

In XC,
Alec Lowly, sinner

[Antonios]

Hi Mr. Lowly,

You wrote: "Can God work through dreams? He can, of course. He has. But what I would look for in such a case, based upon scripture and tradition, is clarity, specificity and accuracy"

I found this verse using one of those online bible search generators:

Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the Tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When both of them stepped forward, he said, "Listen to my words:
"When a prophet of the LORD is among you,
I reveal myself to him in visions,
I speak to him in dreams.

But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.

With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD. (Numbers 12:5-8)

If we believe that God is omnipotent, than there is nothing He cannot do. In the same way, since the human imagination is in the image of God, than our imagination is potentially boundless. This one of the greatest gifts we have been given. Because of the Fall, however, this imagination is now used as an instrument of the devil through his demonic means. Determining what is a dream or not, or whether the brain was in a certain wave when it happened, or "whether it was in the body or out of the body"(2 Cor 12:2) can be difficult if not impossible to discern. Our answer must be like St. Paul: "I do not know".

The safest way is to ignore them. The advanced way is to "test them". The godly way is to find the Word of God in them, something few have mastered. It is to those who see God "clearly, face to face". To those, these are not dreams or "pillars of clouds", but experiental, personal conversations with the Creator of the Universe.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Antonios,
You wrote,


If we believe that God is omnipotent, than there is nothing He cannot do. In the same way, since the human imagination is in the image of God, than our imagination is potentially boundless. This one of the greatest gifts we have been given. Because of the Fall, however, this imagination is now used as an instrument of the devil through his demonic means.

It is my strong impression from the guidance of the Holy Frs that imagination is not a faculty which is part of our original make-up; rather imagination is one of those results of the fall and personal sin as it affects the mind and heart.

The Holy Frs describe the dispassionate heart and mind as working in great simplicity and this applies to straight forward intellectual work as much as lifting one's mind to God.

The mind when it is purified through an ascetic life in Christ moves simply in regards to what it is considering, whereas the fallen mind lives in a world of its own self-created images & fantasies which it then considers like watching an endless film.

The problem with the second way of images & fantasy is that it is selfish & results in inner chaos & is often fueled by passion. We accept such a state as being normal because society defines it in this way and even gives the message that people who live in this kind of inner world are of a higher order. We have all heard and been taught these things from earliest childhood- how the best people are those who 'follow their dreams'. But a large part of our being in the Church is laying aside this self-created self and slowly coming to grips with who God has created each of us as within the wider Church and creation.

Dying to the old man and living through the new is so fundamental to our calling as Orthodox Christians and of all issues it will be the one which is most real and lasts our entire life. God is slowly transforming us from a self-created Saul into the God-created Paul.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Antonios]

Dear Father Raphael,

Thank you for the clarification. I would like to learn more about this since I thought completetly otherwise. I always believed that Adam was created with the ability to create as well, that is music, art, literature, etc. In order to create such things, a person needs imagination. This is the type of imagination I was referring to. I thought the reason why we must 'curb' our imagination now is because in our corrupted and fallen state, it is difficult to discern what is from God and what is from the enemy. Hence, the safest way (and thus, the recommended way by the Church) is to ignore any mental 'images', that is, become dispassionate. I find it difficult to understand why a beautiful score of music or a magnificent sculpture or painting is a consequense of the fall. Aren't St. Ephraim's poems a work of imagination? Or sermons by St. John Chrystostome replete with beautiful imagery? Why would Adam be created without such ability? Please help me understand.

[Joanna Bakas]

Dear All,

I have been reading this thread with great interest. Today I went to visit one of my patients in hospital who is highly suicidal and has harmed herself in serious ways in the past. She told me she had a dream last night of her hanging herself and that she did not know if this meant she should do this or that this was going to happen.(Obviously I took appropriate action to keep her safe) To me it illustrated in a dramatic way the dangerousness of acting on or interpreting dreams.

I was thinking the best way to think about this topic is in a dialectical way. That yes dreams may be a way of God communicating to us but they also can be the means of our destruction. That both sides might have truth in them and that what we are doing in this discussion is trying to come up with a dialectical solution rather than just argue that one side is right. I think from some of the quotes from the Holy Fathers that is what many of the Holy Fathers have done. In a sense the problem is knowing that it is in fact a message from God rather than from illness or the Devil. In the above example it is very obvious but I suspect alot of the time it is much more subtle and difficult to discern.

Joanna

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

By using imagination we mean focusing on mental images. This means that without our quite noticing it we are in the habit of using our consciousness to focus on images which the mind plays endlessly like a never-ending movie; or rather like being in a room with many different movies going all at once!

In all of this it is not consciousness or intellect which is a result of the fall- absolutely not! This amazing faculty has been given us by God as an aspect of ourselves that most accords to being in the image & likeness of God.

However with the fall consciousness now often operates in a dispersed and confused way. And instead of operating in the way of simple understanding that is inherent to consciousness' nature we now live in a mental world of self-created images. It is the taking up of our mental/spiritual abode in this world of images which is called imagination and it is this- not consciousness itself- which the Holy Frs would have referred to as resulting from the Fall.

As far as Adam being able to create music, art & literature. I think that Adam created pure art in Paradise & that is why modern contemporary art is so often nostalgic for Paradise.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Antonios]

Thank you Father. I think what I'm confusing is imagination with creativity, the prior which involves fantasy and the later which involves the intellect. Thank you for the clarification.

in humility and love,
Antonios

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Antonios,
Yes creativity is certainly one of the higher God given gifts that we have give granted.
In Christ- Fr Raphael