Should Orthodox Christians serve on any jury requested? [Archive]

Elizabeth

08-08-2003, 06:47 PM

Dear Forum members:

Would it be better to go to jail in contempt of court rather than to sin by being subjected to the testimony that a juror must endure IF THAT CASE IS PARTICULARLY HEINOUS?

I ask this question because I am still new to Orthodoxy, ever learning her ways.

Los Angeles County in California now has a draconian law regarding jury duty. The law is so strict that almost everybody over the age of 18 who can breathe is required to serve, even Priests and doctors. Even the sick require a doctor's note, which physicians hesitate to sign, since proof is required. Furthermore, California has become such an immoral society that the courts are overloaded with cases, which mandate yearly jury duty. Many self-employed or poor people spend their vacations impaneled and sequestered!

In fifty years the morals of the people of California have changed dramatically. Due to the heinous crimes and sins, which the people are committing every day, serving on the jury could be a serious occasion of sin. Sins which cry to heaven are no longer considered sins. Listening to the creative diabolical excuses, which the defense attorneys offer, is deplorable. Furthermore, many of our judges are not even honorable as they impose further sinful burdens on the jurors.

Thankfully, due to my poor health, this obligation has not been imposed on me, but my innocent son, age 19, just received a notice to serve and is very concerned.

So I rephrase the question, and please stay on topic, Would it be better to go to jail in contempt of court rather than to sin by being subjected to jury duty IF THAT CASE IS PARTICULARLY ABOMINABLE? Would it be a good witness to our faith to decline such scandalous jury duty?

Please: I am inviting only those people who have many years in Orthodoxy to answer this question in a calm manner. I hope for a simple answer that can benefit us, not a debate.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

(Message edited by chanterhanson on 08 August, 2003)

Owen Jones

08-08-2003, 07:03 PM

The problem, Elizabeth, is that there is no simple answer. Under another type of political system, judges would decide cases. But we have democratized justice in America, and we are stuck with that. Judges will not permit Christians to opt out of part of the justice system. I suppose a very widespread practice of civil disobedience on the part of Christians would change it, but this is an arcane issue for many at this time. So you are out on a limb. Home schooling is an example of how widespread civil disobedience works for a positive good. In the early days, all homeschoolers defied the law and were subject to being thrown in jail. It started out as a trickle and became a watershed.

Do what most Americans do today. Start a web site!

Herman Blaydoe

08-08-2003, 07:37 PM

Perhaps I fail to see the issue. Jury duty is a civic responsibility. However, it is really not that difficult to be eliminated as a juror for a particular case, at least here in Maryland. If your beliefs do not allow you to render an impartial verdict, then simply saying so during the challenge phase before the case begins will generally relieve a person from responsibility in that particular case. This simple mind has difficulty understanding how one might sin by simply serving as part of a jury. At any rate it is just not that difficult to get challenged by either lawyer and not be included as part of that jury.

Herman the simple juror

Elizabeth

08-08-2003, 07:53 PM

Dear Herman:

California is particularly notorious for its heinous crimes. There are satanic murders, etc. I won't elaborate. Furthermore, judges don't release potential jurors because of a juror's personal beliefs. Policemen and firemen seem to be the only ones who can be excused.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

Loretta

08-08-2003, 08:12 PM

For what it's worth, I "once" had a similar problem. While being questioned by the attorneys before the trial, I was asked whether I would have any problem upholding the law. To this I answered that I had to follow my conscience and God irregardless of what the "law" was. The rest of the potential jurists were asked to leave the courtroom and I was escorted into the judges chambers where I had to sign a paper stating my objection to holding the state's laws over God's law. I was then excused from jury duty and haven't heard from them since.

Elizabeth

08-08-2003, 09:54 PM

Dear forum members:

Yesterday's DYNAMIS meditation (August 7, 2003) taken from their website might apply to the topic on hand: http://www.trisagion.com/dynamis

"In today's reading, the Apostle Paul provides three rules for connecting life and worship as the Lord desires: "do all to the glory of God (vs. 10:31), [seek] the profit of many that they may be saved (vs. 10:33), and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you" (vs. 11:2).

The Apostle commands us to "do all to the glory of God" (vs. 31), for God is glorified by prayer that is according to His will. As St. Theophan the Recluse says, "...the most necessary [means] is prayer, by which we must implore the Holy Spirit to pour His divine light into our hearts." And, let us commit our hearts to God, praying that He may be glorified in what we do.

St. John of the Ladder outlines a simple plan for our prayers which may be readily applied: "Let your prayer be completely simple...let us list sincere thanksgiving first on the scroll of our prayer....Do not be over-sophisticated in the words you use....Do not try to be verbose when you pray....If you feel sweetness or compunction at some word of your prayer, dwell on it...approach with great humility....Listen to the cry of Paul regarding sinners: Of whom I am chief....Prepare yourself for your set times of prayer by unceasing prayer in your soul...He who is busy with something, and continues it when the hour of prayer comes, is deceived by the demons. Those thieves aim at stealing from us one hour after another."

Next, the Apostle commands us to seek "the profit of many that they may be saved" (vs. 33), a directive, concerning which we have a warning from St. Theophan: "You must indeed love your neighbor, but your love must not cause harm to your soul....The most important thing in these actions is assisting in the salvation of your neighbors....This thirst for the salvation of your neighbors you must always have; but it must arise from your love of God, and not from ill-judged zeal." Balance is required in order not to offend through our zeal. Rather, let us set such a living example that others will be drawn to our worship, attracted by the love of God they meet in us.

Finally, St. Paul tells us "...keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you" (vs. 11:2). All our activities should be probed deeply, as St. Theophan says, "...in order to see clearly which of them are good and which are bad. We should judge them not as the world and the senses do, but as they are judged by right reason and the Holy Spirit, or by the word of the divinely inspired Scriptures, or that of the holy fathers and teachers of the Church." Tradition is to impact not only the rituals of the Church, but every facet of each one's daily living and relationships with others.

O Master, tell us of the joy of Thy salvation, and confirm us in Thy love, that even unto our last breath we may offer Thee the sacrifice of truth, praise undefiled, and glory to Thy Name."

Herman Blaydoe

08-08-2003, 11:13 PM

While it is indeed difficult to avoid a jury summons, or to totally escape jury duty (I assume that is NOT what you are asking about), getting excused from a particular trial is not necessarily that difficult. I am not sure if you have ever been a juror, but there is usually a procedure called the challenge before a particular trial actually starts. The selected jurors are called in and asked general questions, and each lawyer (defense and prosecution) then ask further questions for each juror. The prosecution and defense both get an opportunity to "challenge" a particular juror if they feel that that person is unable to provide an impartial verdict. I think each side gets up to 3 challenges. If you participation is objected to by either side, you will probably be excused from that particular trial. If the motive here is simply to avoid jury duty, I don't think that you can justify such from teachings of the Orthodox Church. Being judged by a jury of one's peers is a cherished right. If you were brought to court for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly would you not want the ability to have a jury of your peers hear and decide your case? It is a civic duty, part of our responsibilities as citizens. If we enjoy the rights, we ought to be ready to shoulder the responsibilities to our fellow citizens, just as we expect them to do the same for us. Or so it seems to this simple mind.

Elizabeth

08-08-2003, 11:19 PM

The question is simply:

Would it be better to go to jail in contempt of court rather than be forced into a situation where you would have to listen to testimonies that can cause you to sin by being subjected to jury duty IF THAT CASE IS PARTICULARLY ABOMINABLE?

(Message edited by chanterhanson on 08 August, 2003)

Herman Blaydoe

08-08-2003, 11:32 PM

Would it be better to go to jail in contempt of court rather than be forced into a situation where you would have to listen to testimonies that can cause you to sin by being subjected to jury duty IF THAT CASE IS PARTICULARLY ABOMINABLE?

Seems simple enough to me. If the question is asked: "are you able to render an impartial verdict in this case?", merely explaining what you feel is "abominable" about it will be more than enough for one side or the other to challenge your participation on that jury. Otherwise consult your priest.

Herman the simple
Not to be used as a substitute for an Orthodox priest's recommmendation. Your priest's advice may vary

Elizabeth

08-08-2003, 11:32 PM

Dear folks:

This is not a what-if scenario. Northridge California is the porn capital of the world. We have some very bad cases out here. It's very sick.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

Owen Jones

08-08-2003, 11:38 PM

There is no objective absolute, universal answer to your question, Elizabeth. It would be a conscience issue. I doubt most priests these days would concur that it would be better for you to go to jail. They might just as easily argue that that would create a scandal for the Church, or put your family at risk. They might just as well argue that the jury should have a Christian on it. For a sensitive soul who does not feel he should be exposed to testimony that is horrific, one might try to make a case against jury duty for that person. However, we Christians of all people should not be shocked by evil or sordid details. What can be more sordid than the way Christ died?

But it is still a very valid, in fact, important question that goes beyond individual conscience. The traditional Christian understanding would be to have wise Christian judges rather than juries. Juries are a consequence of liberal democratic political theory which tends to contradict the traditional understanding of government.

Theoretically I do not agree with a secular system that is based entirely on Constitutionally guaranteed rights. I do not believe in a system based on rights. I believe in a system based on virtues and mutual obligations. But such societies do not exist anymore.

Theoretically, I believe that God is sovereign over the polity, just as over our hearts individually. So the political system should represent that, and traditionally that is the role of a Christian monarch, who then appoints judges and local governors, etc.

Pragmatically, there is no alternative to liberal democracy today, and so one muddles along as best one can. I certianly do not believe it is a civic duty to conform to a demonically secular legal system. Still, One does what one has to do, not always for the best of reasons.

I think of Solzhenitsyn, who lived in a system with an ideal liberal constitution that guaranteed all kinds of rights. And the people lived as slaves, terrorized by their political leaders. But he was always a stickler for obeying the law.

Herman Blaydoe

08-08-2003, 11:39 PM

Margaret Lark

08-08-2003, 11:44 PM

I agree, and it can get even simpler: Ask your priest. I have an = exceptionally innocent 24-year-old son, so I understand your concerns, = but I wouldn't hesitate to ask my priest's opinion, and depending on = what he said, I might also enlist his help in perhaps acquainting my son = with the bare bones of what he's likely to hear. The kid has to find = out about it sometime, and better he should get the real story from his = priest than whatever filth he can pick up at college.

Elizabeth

08-08-2003, 11:49 PM

Dear Owen,

Thank you very much. I agree with you about our juridical system not being the best choice.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

Fr Averky

09-08-2003, 01:37 AM

As citizens of our country, we a re bound by law to appear for jury deuty. I do not know about California, but I recently received a questionarre from the local county court. In it I was asked if I had ever served on a jury , and so on. At the end of the document, I was reminded that it is considered a serious crime not to answer, or to show up if called.

Twice I have almost been called to jury duty, and I know that I would have seen it as my duty to do so. There is no question.

We are not Quaakers or Nazarenes, who have religious sentiments in opposition to our government. We vote, pay our taxes, uiphold our consitution, and are obedient to federal, state, and local laws. We serve in the armed forces when called, for the Orthodox Church is not pacifistic.

We do not boycott abortion clinics, we do not boycott businesses or express such sentiments to the media. As I mentioned, it is more effective for us to love God and our neighbor than to distract ourselves by passionately involving ourselves in "activist" situations.We also know that if we are called to jury duty and we feel that we could not give an unbiased opinion in regards to the case before us, we have the right to express that opinion and be excused.

These questions, while certainly having their importance, are rather peripheral to the life of the Church and the life of a Christian. Yet, as citizens of our great nation, we should, as patriotic and sensible persons, uphold and obey those laws and institution which keep us free. Look how many Orthodox Christiasns suffered over the last eighty years because there were no fair courts or laws to protect them. Thank God that we have the institutions that we do.

Respectfully,

Father Averky

James

09-08-2003, 06:53 PM

It is always uncomfortable to confess one's shortcomings in a public setting, so it is with reluctance that I admit to being a lawyer. I have tried many cases before a jury, so my perspective is from the other side of the table, so to speak.

It is true that many cases have aspects that are uncomfortable, or even obscene. This is, I think, because unfettered passions lead people to do things which they ought not to. That is as true in civil cases as it is in criminal cases. The man who cheats another under a contract is the same as the man who murders or who panders. In either case, the true root of the problem is that the person has surrendered to his passions. And, as is common, when both sides are fighting losing battles with passions, the waters can be very murky indeed.

I live in an area where there are very few Orthodox Christians. The nearest parish is about two hours away. I very much doubt that I have had an Orthodox Christian on any of my juries. Given the opportunity to seat one, though, I would leap at the chance, regardless of the case at hand. Why? Because I know that as Orthodox we have a clear eyed vision of the world, and of the people in it. Sometimes that vision would help my client and sometimes, in all honesty, it would harm him. It is an honest and truthful vision, though, and in my mind it brings salt and light to the world. It is a vision with no agendas of its own, and with no program to advance.

True, in some cases the evidence and the testimony is uncomfortable. There is much in the world, though, that makes us uncomfortable, but the Lord uses such things to teach and strengthen us.

As a lawyer, I try to encourage my clients to offer and to receive mercy. Sometimes, for whatever reason, that is not possible, and a trial must take place. Why would I not want the sanest people I know on my jury?

Ken Hendrickson

10-09-2003, 05:11 PM

I see that this thread quieted down some time ago, but I just came across it after a hiatus from these fora. I have to confess that Elizabeth's question is one that has occurred to me, not because of being exposed to awful testimony, but because of the injunction not to judge. I see in the Desert Fathers that they absolutely refused to participate in legal proceedings on these very grounds, going so far as to refuse testimony against bandits, murderers, etc. Does that history affect anyone's thinking?

Moses Anthony

11-09-2003, 03:24 PM

Dear Elizabeth H.

Is it better to show contempt of court than to endure the testimony of a particularly insidous nature? Please remember that I work for twelve hours a day in a maxium security penal institution. We're charged to keep secure until they satisfy the courts sentencing, every type of criminal you can imagine, burgulars, pornographers, pedophiles, parole violaters, rapists and murderers. The things which the officers overhear in the course of doing their jobs, and the things which the inmates say directly to the officers are of such filth, you would be hard presed to imagine them. Often I just want to get home as quickly as possible, plug in my headsets, and wash my brain out with Christian music!

Your question is based upon another: How do we as citizens of heaven, live among those who live openly in rebellion towards God? It is irrevelant as to where we find sin and all of its affects, for our response to it is to always be the same, "...Let your light shine in the darkness, so that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven."
My short answer to your question is, NO! But then at this moment I'm not summoned to serve -to carry out both my civic and spiritual duty. I was once in the jury pool for a heinous crime. I couldn't believe that the defense attorney wanted leinence, and so said "...If we are a nation of laws, and this is so heinous a crime, then we should punish it to the fullest extent of the law." Needless to say the defense attorney asked that I be removed, and the judge so ordered it!

As the Apostle Paul said in various ways to the churches: God is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him until that day; for where sin abounds, grace abounds much more; for neither life or death, nor angels, or principalities... nor any created thing shall separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Being a true witness, to me at least, is an extremely long way from being judgemental; however, I do see it as being obedient to the command, to be "...subject to those God has put in authority over us, for our good and the punishment of those who do evil."
Sometimes I verbalize my thought when Christian people ask me, "How do you work there?" I answer, "What better place for light to shine in darkness!"

an unworthy servant

Richard McBride

12-09-2003, 12:13 AM

monochos: Should Orthodox Christians?

There was a nice little comic relief many years ago out of Britain, of the tribulations of a coal miner who was unsuited for the job. It carried on something like this, in a simulated Yorkshire accent: "I was handin' this great lump of coal to my mate -- OW! I dropped this great lump of coal on my foot! I was handin' another great lump of coal to my mate -- OW! I dropped another great lump of coal on my foot. So, I decided to get out of minin' and go into judgin'. You don't have to worry about droppin' great lumps of coal on your foot in judgin'." Indeed, not. And thats just what he did.

This comfy career of 'judgin' reminds that during the Clinton administration I was becoming inordinately concerned (yet once again) with politics. I was becoming obsessed with the notion that I was called upon to make judgments about people in high places (very few of whom I had ever encountered), and thus I was becoming more and more condemnatory (well, what else may one do when it comes to judgin' politics?).

As this whole set of unfit notions grew more and more bloated, I was aware of shifting an inordinate judgmental vision from the public lies being told (which started during the campaign), to the perceived political gaffs (emerging during bouts of Clinton's foreign diplomacy), to the moral sexual quagmire unfolding as fodder for television (that was, of course, just prior to the ultimate horror show of NATO vs Serbia on international TV).

As the demand for judgin' grew and it became more and more apparent that more and more situations seemed to demand my own personal judgin', I had to move the locus of justification from being situationally oriented -- that is, one may hardly justify the condemnation of indecisions in Somalia based upon Clinton's success as a draft dodger -- I had to move my justification system to a larger platform. That is when I decided it should be democracy itself. It was democracy (or Democracy) which called upon everyone to do their bit by becoming judges on everything.

Isn't that true? Is that not what we, as democratic liberals, are called upon to do? Are we not supposed to uphold Democracy at every turn in the road by having a judgmental opinion on this, on that, on everything? At that time, I thought so.

Ah me. The tyranny of Democracy. How can that utopian ideal survive unless we all chip in with our judgin'?

On the other side, might it collapse if we truly followed the lead of Christ, and merely sent our taxes, sat on juries, and kept paying our traffic fines -- that is, if we paid what was due to Caesar, and realized that Caesar is there because God has NOT placed him elsewhere.

As I look back, the form of judgin' in which I was caught up was really another name for 'inordinate worry'. What presumption to think that my worry (or even all of us together contributing our worry) would save Democracy.

It would be fascinating to observe how delicately the demons manipulate these democratic new age fantasies -- it would be, if my life were not at stake.

Matthew Panchisin

12-09-2003, 05:45 AM

So I rephrase the question, and please stay on topic, Would it be better to go to jail in contempt of court rather than to sin by being subjected to jury duty IF THAT CASE IS PARTICULARLY ABOMINABLE? Would it be a good witness to our faith to decline such scandalous jury duty?

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

Dear E Hanson,

I clicked on your user profile and found - The profile that you have requested no longer exists. The user who created this profile has been deleted from the system.

I hope that you are well and still checking in from time to time. Your obviously lovingly concerned about you and your family being subjected to evil. Are we not to escheweth (avoid, evade) evil like we read in the book of Job. I think it would be a good witness to our faith for anyone concerned who is noticed to show up for jury duty and during the jury selection process mention to the lawyers you want to make a statement. You could be a witness to our faith and not decline such scandalous jury duty. But rather incline their ears and eyes make the sign of the cross 3 times and say the Nicene creed slowly and with conviction. One could say "I will tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God." In that case you won't say We believe but

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made: Who for us men and for our salvation came down from the heavens, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man; And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; And ascended into the heavens, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets; In One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I Confess one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the life of the age to come, Amen.

Whoever does this could be looked upon as a fool and a mad person and thus be dismissed from jury duty avoid jail and be free to rejoice and weep in the Orthodox Church of Christ. Since it seems some want to negotiate the 10 commandments and "so help you God" out of the physical place where the spiritually unethical process and modern system promotes the lies that lies are said to be truth and truth lies and words are cut up and many lawyers spit fire and concoctions to and fro. In closing remarks of course it's to find the truth and justice.

Thanks be to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ since you are an Orthodox Christian you have found the fullness of the truth In One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

In Christ,

Matthew

Charalambos Andrew Geo

12-09-2003, 02:36 PM

to all who have been there or are in a place that could harm yourselves like the person who said he was to keep something secure, with the blessing of your spiritual father if you have one you could spend that time in prayer for those in the jails, we can if we have strength have pity on all and cry fervantly to God for them, Saint John of Kronstadt used to go to the prison when there was a riot all the officers left and when they arrived after sending for him they found the prisoners in their cells praying, i might be niave but Godwilling he will send such saints into the prisons and turn all to Christ in repentance, I think i strayed from the subject, but my main point was each individual if he has a priest or spiritual father should go to them and ask their advice, for every one it might vary or be similar. pray about it genuinly and try to glorify God in what ever you do with love for all.
you'll be in my prayers
In Christ
Harry

Archbishop Constantin

05-10-2003, 04:34 AM

I will not make any comments as to what a Christian should do or not, if called to jury duty. I come from a long tradition where my father and both my grandfathers were members of the Judiciary Corps of Greece. I broke the tradition by becoming an engineer, before the call of the Lord came.

What bothers me and offends me is that Orthodox Christians, who go to court for whatever reason, they will obey the clerk's order: "Raise your right hand!..." I know of no jurisdiction, at least in the USA, that will obligate anyone to take an oath. When a presbyter, I had two occasions of going to court: one was for a minor child and the other for someone accused of a serious offence. Both times I said to the judge that I was not allowed to take an oath and I gave the evidence after affirmation. The third time was when I became a naturilized US citizen and I did so by affirmation. I think that all Christians should only affirm. The command of Christ, as far as taking an oath is concerned, is very definite!

+ Arzbispo Constantino

Owen Jones

05-10-2003, 02:33 PM

What is the reason behind the command not to swear an oath?

Catherine

08-07-2005, 04:13 AM

I would like someone to answer the question from the previous post, as the question has recently come up in conversation with friends.

"What is the reason behind the command not to swear an oath?"

Leandros

08-07-2005, 07:09 PM

There is a pastoral advise from St Chrysostom in his Homily XIV (http://biblestudy.churches.net/CCEL/FATHERS2/NPNF109/NPNF1063.HTM#P1921_1708222) not to swear at all. Also in his First Instruction to Catechumens (http://biblestudy.churches.net\CCEL\FATHERS2\NPNF109\NPNF 1022.HTM) he insists again not to swear at all.

St Chrysostom preaches that since we can not guarantee OUR TRUTH, or OUR OATH, because situations in life are conditioned beyond our power to define them exclusively, it is better for us not to use oaths, or else we are forced to become perjurers in our effort to be honest!

Life gets the strangest turns sometimes and if we swear of its straightness we become perjurers unintentionally. We have to identify ourselves with the “truth” of our oath, even if reality is in contradiction to it. We must avoid being in such a paradox/antiphasis and the best way to do that is to avoid swearing. He gives an example of such paradox in his Homily XIV (http://biblestudy.churches.net/CCEL/FATHERS2/NPNF109/NPNF1063.HTM#P1921_1708222) by analysing the history of King Saul and his son Jonathan (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2014:24-28;&version=9;):

King Saul, being in a battle with Philistines, swore to God that: "Cursed be the man that eateth any food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies. So none of the people tasted any food". Then Saul's son, Jonathan, who "heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth" and by having eaten he violated his father's oath to God!

This is exactly why we must avoid swearing, says St Chrysostom; our oath may have tragic implications on others, while being itself an innocent and an honourable act. We must not try to constrain the Providence of God.

On the other hand, says St Chrysostom, God is called as a Witness in human debates and human conflicts. This is absolute irreverence to God. (Luke 12:13-14) “One of the people in the crowd said, `Teacher, tell my brother to divide with me the things my father left when he died.' Jesus said, `Man, who made me a judge over you or gave me power to divide your things?'”

Let me present a small passage from his ”First Instruction to Catechumens” (http://biblestudy.churches.net\CCEL\FATHERS2\NPNF109\NPNF 1022.HTM):

... And we, whether buying vegetables, or quarrelling over two farthings, or in a rage with our servants and threatening them, always call upon God as our witness. But a freeman, possessed of some barren dignity, thou wouldest not dare to call upon as witness in the market to such things; but even if thou attemptedst it, thou wilt pay the penalty of thine insolence. But the King of Heaven, the Lord of Angels, when disputing both about purchases and money, and what not, thou draggest in for a testimony."

Catherine

11-07-2005, 04:28 PM

Thank you Leandros. Now I am aware and can pass the information on.http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Paul Cowan

07-10-2007, 03:43 AM

What would cause someone to sin by serving on a jury? I am really at a loss here. Then again, I have been exposed to some pretty shocking things in my life that I would certainly liked to have avoided...but God will not let us be tempted beyond our means to resist, if I recall correctly[...] I just don't see how we, as Orthodox Christians, can justify avoiding jury duty to avoid hearing about "abominable things." If I suffered "abominable things" I certainly would want a jury to be able to render a proper verdict in the case, and I would be greatly comforted by the presence of one or more Orthodox Christians on that jury. But that might just be me and I am of simple mind.

For those that are predisposed to certain behaviours, being around any portion of them if only verbally could cause them to act them out. An alcoholic does not need to smell alcohol or it could lead to him/her "desiring" it and getting drunk. A drug addict does not need to see crushed aspirin in the bottom of a pill bottle as it could remind them of cocaine and could cause them to want to get stoned. A sex addict can hear but a word and fill his/her mind with images that can be acted on later.

Those that are not predisposed to addictive beahviours can never understand these things. I have never been on a jury but have been called twice. I was in college the first time and excused and missed being picked the second time by the panel being filled before they got to me. If TV is any indication (I don't watch it anymore BTW) how courts are with photos, and audio tapes and explicit verbal descriptions by witnesses, then God help the addict and those others who will have these mental images burned in their minds for a very long time.

Regardless of what protection God gives us we should also avoid temptaion at all costs. Perhaps "not beyond our means" also means that we have the ability to not be there as examples others have given above of getting out of serving.

I too would want a fair and partial jury for my defense. But as Christians we are to make amends before we get to court as Christ says lest we be turned over to the judge for sentenceing. My peers are Orthodox Christians. Where will I find a jury such as this? Woe is me if I allow my offenses to reach the judge and be subjected to a jury of the world's peers.

Paul