Internet use is a common addiction

[Kosmas Damianides]

Hi,

I recently came accross current studies revealing that users of the Internet are victims who are caught in the Net. Most users don't have a normal pattern in life and do not possess developed social cultural skills and find it difficult to maintain a healthy relationship with friends, family even workmates.

We have to become aware of our habits which may be deteriorating and jeopardising our real relationships with real people.

At a recent seminar I heard somone speak of how people do things which they would not normally do after being subjected to the exponentially increasing amount of rubish on the internet. the speaker confessed to being an adulterer and falling victim to this passion of using the internet -- (forbidden love he called it).

He also emphasised that we have to firstly identify that we DO have a problem annd that we must then have someone (ie. a spiritual father) to tell them our problem in order to help us. Saying that it is not a problem or that we can overcome this ourselves often dosn't work.

Unlike conventional television, the internet opens the door of the soul to anything and anyone. There is no censorship no control.

Although Internet is not evil i itself the people who publish websites publish many offencive materials which affect us and our youth, children and teenagers.

The speaker also said that un-contolled Internet use could destroy the moral upbringing of every new generation. In fact many sexual and violent crimes are strongly associated with the use of the internet. There are trends in society which are rooted in the imoral use of internet for pornography and the like.

http://www.james-dave.com/chatsafe.html

In the privacy of our own home the devil has a better chance of tempting us and drving us off the correct path Of Christ.

The Internet is like a curse. we have to be very careful. Not only for ourselves but (if we have them) our children and their children.

http://www.internetfilter.bz/porn-statistics/

What is being done to control what is being published on the Internet?

If you wish to protect yourself. Limit the use of internet; perhaps to only a once or twice a week. even better don't use it.

So hope i don't see you here again.
http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gifhttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gifhttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif
In Christ

Kosmas

ps look at these...
http://www.netaddiction.com/
internet is also food for a host of other addictions.
http://www.addictions.org/addlinks.htm

[Maximos Darnley]

Thank you Kosmas, for drawing our attention to this series of problems. Certainly it is very easy to fall into sin on the Internet. There are so many opportunities to engage in addictive behaviour. All just a few clicks away. I must say that I must struggle with this often.

I'm not sure that the solution for me is not to use the Internet. I use it everyday as a research tool for my work. Perhaps rather I should be having discussions like the one that I hope you are inviting. Certainly consulting with our Spiritual fathers is of paramount importance and also developmeing greater and greater discernment and awareness.

I think parents certainly have a very important responsibility to monitor their childrens' Internet use and to openly discuss the issues that you raise.

A sinful Internet user

In Christ

Maximos

[Jill]

Kosmas

While I agree that the internet is the least regulated of the media, and therefore poses a greater potential for harm to vulnerable individuals, very similar arguments to yours have been used for many years against books, magazines, television and, more recently, video/DVD. All media can be vehicles for good (like this discussion group) and for bad, but they are not intrinsically "evil". It's of course the responsibility of all of us to be discerning in what we use from any media, and, even more importantly, to protect children and other vulnerable members of society from unsavoury content, and to educate them in the good and useful use of media.

[Effie Ganatsios]

Kosmas, after noticing how addictive being on the Internet is for me, I decided - a couple of years ago - to only use it a couple of months a year.

As it is impossible for me not to use it when I am connected I now buy Internet cards that last a month or so.

For me the Internet is a fascinating invention - why? I read a lot - I go through 4-5 books a week - and I like to know what I am reading about. I use the Internet to look up references to people and things I come across in my reading.
I use it e.g. for this particular forum because reading the various messages concerning the Orthodox religion allows me to see how other people think about it. I also use the Internet to download English translations of Orthodox texts.

I don't use it for work-related research so I don't really need to be connected all the time.
I have a notebook and write down all the things I need to look up when I am connected.

We are adults and we can choose how to live our lives - this, of course, includes the use of the Internet.

For parents with young children the problem is more complicated but I believe there is a programme that allows you to monitor your children's use of the Internet.

Effie

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Thank you Kosmas for pointing out the very real dangers of the internet.

Chemicals can be used to manufacture medicines, but they can also be used to make drugs. It seems to me that the discipline needed to use the internet wisely is the same prayerful discernment which we need when choosing to watch a certain film, read a certain book, listen to the radio. The internet does have the special characteristic of making much more material available, of whatever content, much quicker.

However much nonsense and - let's call a thing by it's name - filth there is on the net, it remains our prerogative and freedom of choice not to look at it. I speak as one who, like Maximos (and thank you for your sincerity Maximos), struggles with this temptation. I also agree with Effie that limiting our use of the net is appropriate, but it should perhaps be also borne in mind that, although alcoholics do well to stay away from bars, they will still be able to buy wine at the local supermarket if they surrender to the temptation to drink.

What I'm trying to say is that an act of willpower is necessary here, and this in the spirit of humility which recognises that if we rely entirely on our own strength, and don't ask for God's participation in our choices, the chances we will succeed are that much slimmer. Sorry if this sounds negative, I'm actually saying we can resist evil, even in today's technological world. We are not to blame for every piece of rubbish that is brought to our attention by the "information" age, just as we are not to blame for having an indecent or blasphemous image cross our minds; but we are definitely responsible (response-able) not to succumb to these thoughts or images. And may the knower of men's hearts help us all in this!

ICXC
Byron

[Effie Ganatsios]

Kosmas, rereading your message I just wanted to add that I don’t know whether I agree with the statement in the first paragraph.

I lead a very full life even though I don’t work full time any more. I have a big house, a couple of private students, a busy social life and, last but definitely not least, a really beautiful garden (my beloved hobby – in fact one of the reasons I love the Internet is the fact that I discovered Michael Garofalo’s site – an amazing feat by a former librarian).

I decided to limit my access to the Internet, not because I was being corrupted in any way but because I found that I was weak regarding it. It would be terrific if we could all be so self-disciplined as to say to ourselves each morning :”Right, today I will spend ½ hr to 1 hr on the Internet”. Unfortunately for me, and I imagine others like me, things don’t work this way. I found myself sitting down in front of the computer at 8 a.m. (after finishing my housework – after all I wasn’t soooo addicted that I neglected my daily work. I confess that this was quite easy as I get up at 5.30 a.m. in order to enjoy the beautiful early hours of each day) and suddenly realizing it was 12 noon and “where had my morning gone……..”.

I have not been "corrupted" by the Internet. As Byron says we are responsible for what we allow ourselves to succumb to.

The reason I decided to use the Internet the way I do is that I choose to use my time as I see fit.
We are supposed to be stewards of our time and, for myself, being the weak person I am, I decided that the only way I could manage to do this is to remove temptation.

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

These are all wonderful comments about the use of the internet. I guess this comes down to what is an Orthodox use of the internet vs. what is un-Orthodox and trying to find the balance. The internet is not intrinsically evil as was already pointed out but is rather a tool for communication whose nature we gradually learn and can use or abuse.

Until recently our parish (and the priest) did not have a PC. Then began the rapid changes in our church in regards to our relationship with the rest of Orthodoxy- especially the Church in Russia. As is common now, more & more information including the exchange of opinions (our church has four active internet 'lists') was appearing through the internet- to the point that written correspondence has become quite minimal even regarding official matters- most church members just go to our church website to find out what is officially going on.

At first for about 6 months I just went to a parishioner's home and used his PC. After learning the basics the most striking thing was how much discussion and debate on this crucial question was occurring on the internet (I hadn't even discovered the lists yet!). And secondly I noticed that reading through this discussion helped one situate oneself in a very helpful way. So this is why the parish bought a PC.

Of course there are the temptations of the internet- the filth one can fall into and the temptation in groups such as this to fall into arguing or just showing off. But the positive side I think is the incredible amount of sharing that can occur and the almost endless way in which this can occur. For at the end of the day the PC is after all still just a human tool in this case geared towards communication but incredibly powerful in speed & quantity. In a strange way it can positively be used to overcome the modern breakdown of community through which in past times perspective was formed & maintained. Whereas in the past we were interiorly part of the community in which we physically lived nowadays we tend to be part of a world-wide community that is not bound by place but rather by inner perspective. This was occurring long before the invention of the PC and in fact technology has been playing this paradoxical role (the mechanical side breaks down while the intellectual draws together) for a few centuries now.

On the other hand the internet can also be a wild horse that is a vehicle for our passions. I suppose it is a matter of balance and also of trying to understand how the dynamic of the internet can be of use or harm to us as Orthodox Christians. We have a bit of fear as we use this new technology at the very same moment as we are typing these words in the hope that we are actually communicating with someone out there.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Maximos Darnley]

Thanks Fr Raphael,

It's true, as you write "In a strange way it can positively be used to overcome the modern breakdown of community . . .".

It's the isolated use of the Internet, or rather the use of the Internet for largely introspective and isolated reasons that is a potential danger. Using the WWW to foster and build new communities can lead us in part back into the opportunities for discussion, collaboration and cooperation that village life and other close physical communities have enabled in the past.

It's also useful to step behind the 'official' news, to learn about developments in different parts of the world from the point of view of the participants. This is particularly the case since we face such rapid and momentus change in the world and such increasingly concentrated 'official' channels that report and interpret the news.

The opportunity for global dialogue can also be useful, even healing in some contexts, as I have discovered.

Since I spend so much time on the Internet it is very reassuring to be in the presence of the discussions that take place through Monachos.net, even if I don't always engage in them and even if my participation is rather passive. Everyday there's a host of new posts. Some I read with interest, others I let go. But whether I read them or not I'm reminded of this community on a daily basis.
In Christ,
Maximos

[Kosmas Damianides]

The original purpose of the Internet ; the exchange of ideas and information, is a beneficial, expedient and useful method. I do not deny there are benefits from the internet. Scientific in particular together with Medical and other research areas have already benefitted greatly by this method.

I originally posted this topic in order to increase the awareness of the problems we face now and may inevitably face in the future.

If we can, we should help make a difference with the weapons of self-awareness and education. These I believe are keys to "orthodox use and non-orthodox use" of the internet.

I am a new member to MONACHOS (Hihttp://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif ) and I have learnt a lot from reading many posts on this and other Orthodox sites.

Thank you for responding to this topic it is quite encouraging to see so many people interested in this topic.

With Lots of Love in Christ,

Kosmas

[Maximos Darnley]

Dear Kosmas,

I'm glad you did raise the range of issues related to the Internet, that you did.

As Orthodox Christians we are both challenged and greatly aided by the Internet. For one I'd like to keep discussion going.

I work on a daily basis using the Internet. Part of the time I also design and write interactive learning materials in the areas of Indonesian language and also the Studies of Society and Environment. These are accessed using the Intranet available to students in Australia.

I'm both challenged and confronted by the Internet and also trying to use it for purposes that will aid and develop us.

In Christ,

Maximos

[Byron Jack Gaist]

Welcome to Monachos, Kosmas, and thank you for alerting us to these important points of caution regarding the use of the internet!

ICXC
Byron

[Rob]

Kosmas' caution is pertinent. My eyes were opened to this issue when I watched several seminarians get caught in the vice of internet pornography. At that point, I decided not to have internet access in my home/apartment. That forced me to use the internet in public spaces: coffee houses, work, or the library. I have now been married for 3 years, and my wife and I continue this practice.

You know, I never struggled w/ internet pornography, but why bring such a powerful temptation into my home? Perhaps in a few years, the struggle would present itself--or perhaps it would tomorrow. I have suggested to several friends that they follow this same practice (not having internet access at home), and all have loved the idea.

Perhaps the key to success in some mattters of temptation lies not in strengthening one's internal fortitude, but in just removing the very possibility of that temptation! It's incredible how easy it is not to think about things that aren't an option.

I exhort you to exhort those dabbling or trapped in this most deadly snare to do likewise.

Christos anesti!}

[Denise Marie Johnson]

Our priest has spoken at least twice in Sunday sermon, that I can remember, about the danger of spending too much time on the internet.

Even if we don't use it to view filth, the danger is that the time on the internet is less time we spend in prayer. Even good sites such as this one, if visited for too long, may mean less time actually spent in prayer. The devil is tricky...
denise

[Catherine]

A very good point Denise, but as Father Vereshack states..." It is a matter of balance.."
This also applies to the time spent on watching television and other activities we undertake.

With love in Christ
Catherine}

[Maximos Darnley]

Rob,

You make some important points. There are many temptations, not just pornography, but also gambling, gaming and the dangers of chat with unknown anonymous people.

Where familiies or groups of peole have Internet access there is a variety of strategies that can make the use of the Internet less hazardous. Employing flitering tools to bar certain topics is one solution. In my state this is done centrally by education systems, for example.

Amongst people in general I think that the most effective approach is to be absolutely frank about the process and its dangers. It is essential to maintain a constant and critical awareness of the sorts of issues that have already been raised in this forum. Discussion about these issues should be an educative and spiritually developing process. In this way all is subjected to the light. There can be no dark places since abuse flourishes in secrecy and anonymity.

I believe that we have a responsibility to ensure that our fellow humans in general, and Orthodox Christians in particular, aren't caught up in such traps.

Not having the Internet at home is certainly a viable strategy but using the Internet in Cafes, Universities or Libraries, doesn't guarantee the absence of the potential for addictive bahaviour or abuse.

Being forthright and honest about the dangers with all family members and fellow Orthodox Christians is an important part of the vigilance that this medium requires.

I' very happy that this discussion has come to the surface.

Truly He is Risen!

Maximos

[Effie Ganatsios]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with what seems to be the general opinion here. The Internet can be both good and bad, as can everything in our lives. I consider that the TV is a lot more dangerous not just for children but for adults as well. There is a lot more rubbish on TV - and it is easily accessible to the youngest child.

These things can be said for books too. We are not mindless creatures. We have a choice. We don't need to go to pornographic sites or to gambling sites. We are careful about the people we "meet" on the Internet by not disclosing personal details about ourselves. Etc. I have come into contact with some wonderful people on a woman's forum - two of which I correspond with by ordinary mail. I have downloaded terrific books from Gutenberg. For me the Internet has been a good thing.

That's why, personally, the advantages weigh much, much more than the disadvantages. In years past fanatic people burnt books. Happily today we can switch off our TV sets, we can limit our access to the Internet, we can choose our books carefully.

Maximus, you write : "I believe that we have a responsibility to ensure that our fellow humans in general, and Orthodox Christians in particular, aren't caught up in such traps. "

Certainly we do. I agree with discussing this issue but I think that each person is responsible for the things he or she does. I read the other day that a person under hynosis will not respond to the words "don't", "can't", etc. Suggestions have to be positive. For example : saying to a child "don't watch TV" will not work. What you have to do is say something like "What a glorious day outside. Let's go out into the garden and play".

If a person wants to visit pornographic sites or gambling sites or whatever, that person has to be ready himself to realize that these things will harm him eventually and to want to find out why he feels the need for them.

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

I just reread the messages and came across Jill's. She says what I wanted to say but a lot more concisely. I talk too much..........

Effie

[Maximos Darnley]

Certainly the Internet can be both good and bad, I think that's a given. For this reason I certainly wouldn't adopt a prohibitionist approach to the Internet. It's an extremely useful tool and I use it everyday.

Certainly each person is responsible for the things they do, yet not everyone has the capacity to act responsibly. Hopefully when they fail they will learn from their irresponsibility.

What concerns me more though is the notion of acquiring discernment. We aren't born with it, we must develop it. For example, a child under the age of about 9 years hasn't yet acquired the psycho-motor ability to safely walk to school through a busy urban environment. They can't discern sufficient variables to undertake the act of crossing a busy road with safety. It isn't yet something that they can do responsibly. So that they are't in danger we have all sorts of strategies in place to ensure that they get to school with safety.

Having others about that can provide guidance and assistance. Many people benefit from having assistance from those that have been somewhere before them, or those that have had to confront temptations. As parents we are usually quite ready to recognise the importance of loving support and guidance for our children as they meet life's challenges. I think many adults also need support when they enter such a vast and challenging domain as the Internet. They are usually quite ready to acknowledge the need for technical support but there are a lot of other challenges.

In Christ,

Maximos

[Rob]

Effie,

I wholly support the virtuous use of most things, including the internet. And I agree almost entirely w/ the sentiment of your post, save in this regard: you seem to counsel us not to be tempted by *just* not being tempted. We should, you imply, *just* realize that pornography or gambling lead to bad things. Would that one faced with temptation could eradicate that temptation by just, well, not being tempted! But of course, if was that simple, it would not be a temptation in the first place. My friends in seminary who struggled with this issue knew (cognitively) their error. And yet what torment afflicted them!

Perhaps for you the internet presents no temptation--blessed be God! But the fact that internet pornography is a multi-billion dollar a year industry belies its existence as a most evil and binding vice for millions upon millions, not least many in the Church. And it is, I would argue, specifically the secrecy and hiddenness of its access (a regular old scheme of the spoiler) that contributes to its prevalance.

So for those who know people who strugggle w/ such temptation (and it was for their sake I wrote), I suggest they offer more sober counsel: *flee* like Joseph from Potiphar's wife, and trust not in your own strength. (For if the "internet" causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life "unwired" than "wired" to go to hell).

Those not faced w/ this temptation may, of course, carry on. =)

I think the reason I'm harping on this issue (and I mean no ill will), is that it is precisely the attitude of "well, let's not lose our heads about this issue," that helped to keep a dear friend in this vice, b/c it was interpreted as "well, there's really not much that can be done about it." It was not until he took the issue for the deadly serious one that it is, and took a radical step (this is the information age, after all!), that he gained victory.

Christos anesti!

Rob

[Effie Ganatsios]

Hi Rob. Alithos Anesti.

I employ the method you suggest - of cutting off your right hand if it offends you. I'm only connected to the Internet for about 1 mth a year because I know myself and know that I spend too much time on it when I'm connected. I don't visit pornographic sites but there are lots of other sins such as pride, etc. that are fueled by Internet use.

What do you suggest though for those that can't take this simple measure, or aren't strong enough to simply limit the time they spend on the Internet to a couple of hours or who can't help themselves and visit sites they know are unsuitable? Should the Internet be banned? Should unsuitable books be banned?

I'm not saying that the Internet is harmless - what I'm saying is that we have a choice.

I'm certainly not saying that addictions are not real problems but I think that people who visit pornographic sites on the Internet are also those that buy pornographic tapes and read pornographic books. What did these people do before the Internet came into their lives?

Effie

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Does the temptation of the internet afflict men more than women? (I'm speaking in general). As someone who hears confessions and counsels others this is my impression. But perhaps this is so for the temptation of pornography in general.

The temptation of lust & sensuality is a fierce one, afflicting male & female equally, at times seemingly coming without apparent cause. In this sense we can only ceaselessly struggle- which has its own reward.

The internet addiction however seems different. As mentioned it seems to be a particularly male affliction for some reason. It is not a straight-forward 'intellectual' noetic battle with the thoughts & feelings but rather first occurs because we go down a certain path without due caution. Please correct me if this is not so. Once the bait is nibbled on it seems exceedingly difficult for a person to resist & then follows addiction. Why this is so and how this relates specifically to the internet (I think someone on this thread at one point did bring up how the internet is fertile ground for this- privacy, visual images, etc) would perhaps be a very fruitful area of investigation.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[leandros]

Brothers and Sisters,

As a network engineer I have been involved professionally in computer technology evolution since 1980. I will try to write some thoughts in a non technical way regarding the question that is placed by this thread.

As many of you may already know, computer and data network technology is evolving with a rate of 100 percent growth every 18 months. That is a phenomenal rate for a technological/economical point of view and has been unchanged since 1974, with very few ups and downs.

We use to forget that what we experience today as "fast internet" and "fast computer" is based on "double" technology compared to what it was 18 months ago and on "half" technology compared to what it will after 18 months. This is a very important fact, as I will try to point in this message.

We are all talking of the internet and of computer technology in this thread in the context of "life". This is false. In the internet the only context that makes sense is "economy". You are able to read my message because a chain of companies that provide the service of "internet" and manufacture the computers are making money out of it! It begins with the computer makers and it ends to network providers. So what is actually considered by many as a way of communication is the appearance of consumerism.

This is not the same as a telephone or a courier service or a mail service, because in these cases I have the need to communicate with someone - in a personal way - in the first place and then, as a result of that, it appears a service provider or a product that will provide the means to fulfill my intention for communication. They have to provide just a physical connection service between the communicated parties and that is all they do.

Computer technology and the internet at the beginning benefit from this concept also as it was used in business/academic applications by using messages, group collaboration technologies, videoconference technologies and archiving technologies by providing the physical connection between the communicated parties. It was a technology that was never intended for personal communications. It was just for impersonal business like correspondence. (Internet actually was first designed and implemented as a pentagon "cold war" era communication network, but that"s another"s forum story to tell). As the technology advanced in the frenzied pace of doubled/18 months the "market" realized that there were unused resources available in the network "for sale". This was a crucial moment because, since then, "the internet" is no longer conceived as a "mean in the service of a cause" but as "a product by itself".

So today we are all consumers, regarding internet usage. In this context we exist only as parts of an economic market. Many people fail to realize that because, internet gave them something new that had never before experienced as consumers: "interaction". They are allowed, for the first time, to be consumers in a market that allows direct and immediate interaction. This new "creativeness", which was never before achieved in a market, gave to the internet companies an unparalleled marketing power.

In the internet "world", we are "the consumers" and "the internet companies" are "the producers". We are not able to become producers, as we will see in a moment.

This new consumer concept, gave to all of us the chance to regard other persons as "products". Many people are seeing this in the most obvious ways of consumer/producer in the paid services of internet, but there is none "non-paid" service in the internet. There is not such thing as "free internet". According to this logic of "market", the monachos.net forum, as all forums on the internet, has to pay for its presence in the internet "world" and you and I have to pay in order to have access to it. This is not like paying for your phone bill. There is a huge difference.

In the normal telephone usage I do not communicate on the phone with people I do not know. (These days there is a resemblance to telephone services and internet services -there are also phone group services like internet forums - but I am talking here of classical telephone usage). I have to be involved in a personal relation with someone and only then I accept from him and return to him phone calls. This is a life likewise situation of communication. In this context I am a consumer as I consume a service of communication with another person, but I am also a producer because my initial acquaintance with the other person presupposes my active presence as a producer of a relationship. The telephone company would have never produced the telephone network in the absence of the relation between me and the other person, with whom he provides the means to communicate with, because the business plan of a phone company is based on a consumer/producer scheme. The telephone companies/networks, as a market, "consumes" the existed relations of people that need to communicate in the frame of their relationships and it produces the means for this communication. On the other hand the "telephone users" are also performing a consumer/producer activity because they consume the phone market service and they produce the relations with the other users, regardless of the existence of the telephone service. There is a mutuality in this context between producer and consumer, a non-producer can not be a consumer: if I have personal relations with nobody, then I can not find a use for the telephone service.

On the contrary "the internet" as a market, just produces the services that the user consumes, in a non personal way. There is no consume scheme in the internet business plan, and there is no producer in the user scheme activity. As long as the internet vanishes, in a hypothetical possibility, all users' relationships will vanish too, because there is no "personal" relation involved.

If tomorrow the monachos.net forum stops, then all forum member"s relations will also cease, because they are nothing else but just an internet service and nothing more. This message that you read right now is written by me, a living person, but it does not provides a way of personal relation between us, it does not require any personal relation with me. It may, or it may not, provide some knowledge on that you do not know of, or it may provide information about myself, but it does not makes us build a personal relation. This inefficiency is not a weakness of "the internet" as a medium; it is a "build in" market choice.

We are forced to be "infertile" in the "internet world" as obligatory non-producers because there is no need for us to produce living realities, which will be answered by market realities. The technology market is growing independently of the consumer"s realities. A growth of 100 percent every 18 months ! That phenomenal growth for 30 consecutive years resulted gradually in an autonomous market place that has no need for human realities; all that is needed is human consumers.

In this context human persons are obsolete in the internet world.

What internet does is to extend ourselves into remote "places". We never personally meet anyone "there". It"s like going for a trip in distance places but not having the time or the culture or the means to know in person the local people.

This is what makes internet "evildoer".

I use the internet out of professional perversion, but my wife finds no real use of it. She reads books all the time, and she likes to talk to people on the phone. She does not like to talk to people over the internet in a videoconference session because she feels that something fake is manipulating a false "reality". It"s not the person on the other side that bother her, but the illusion of being in a remote place where she sees just a portion of other party"s reality and that portion is that she is being seen by the other. It"s like looking into the eyes of a person in the most impersonal way.
As I said before, she can not produce a personal relation with him because she is there with him only as far as the internet permits this to happen.

I wish I could be like her!

[Denise Marie Johnson]

Dear Fr. Raphael,
Not being a priest I do not hear confessions, but I find it hard to believe women are affected equally with men by the temptation of lust. Look at the pornography industry. Well, just from what I have heard men say, they think about sex every few seconds. Women don't (we're too busy taking care of our families and doing house work!).

But for internet use, I find it relaxing to go to my favorite sites and read a bit after work. Sites such as this one; also Orthodoxy Today (for articles on various topics), and news sources. I am able to read articles I would otherwise not have access to. And there are all kinds of sites that have helped me learn more about Orthodoxy. I admit I have a bit of an addiction, and find it hard not to access my e-mail and explorer several times a day.
denise

[Maximos Darnley]

Thank you Father Raphael, you ask some difficult questions but they are very pertinent ones. I feel it's important to continue this discussion but must apologise for such a hasty and perhaps shallow reply.

My own sense is that the Internet could well present more potential opportunities for men to engage in addictive behaviour than women. This is just a tentative statement since obviously it's necessary to go into more detail about which men and under what circumstances, but it seems broadly true to me.

I suspect the reason might lie in the proponsity for men to be drawn to the visual. Certainly the internet is full of powerful images of all kinds.

It is also something undertaken largely by individuals, it's not fully social, the contact is limited to the typed word, static images, sometimes video clips or sound bites. It permits just a small fragment of the whole to be revealed. There is much scope for the user to fill in the details with their own imagination and fantasy. There is little need for them to seriously, and in an immediate sense, consider the impacts of any course of action that they might choose.

In such a largely asocial and consummerist domain there can be an illusion of freedom.

As you write it's not a "straight-forward 'intellectual' noetic battle with the thoughts & feelings but rather first occurs because we go down a certain path without due caution."

In the absence of this caution, in the absence of open discussion and evaluation of the dangers that some of us, with our corrupt natures, will inevitably confront, it is easy to go down 'down a certain path', as you put it. Sadly the path can suddenly become a very slippery slope.

Why this happens and how it relates to the Internet was what I was hoping this discussion might address.

I think it warrants some serious investigation, as you suggest.

On the positive side of the Internet, I've recently been helping some Orthodox children with their school work, on line. Here in Australia the distances are great, like Canada. We have quite a large number of families that attend the Holy Transfiguration Monastery church in a relatively remote, S E corner of NSW. In part the community relies on email to stay in touch. Just like this one.

In Christ,

Maximos

[M.C. Steenberg]

'Ensure that the amount of time you spend on your computer in a given day is never less than the amount of time you spend in interaction with others on the one hand, and the amount of time you spend before your icons on the other.'

Advice overheard not long ago.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Maximos- you wrote


I suspect the reason might lie in the proponsity for men to be drawn to the visual. Certainly the internet is full of powerful images of all kinds.

One comes across discussion from time to time- especially from monastic spiritual fathers- about the distinct propensities of males & females in regards to virtue & vice. I had not heard of the visual ascribed to males but it is worth considering.
You also wrote


In the absence of this caution, in the absence of open discussion and evaluation of the dangers that some of us, with our corrupt natures, will inevitably confront, it is easy to go down 'down a certain path', as you put it. Sadly the path can suddenly become a very slippery slope.

Why this happens and how it relates to the Internet was what I was hoping this discussion might address.

I wonder if something which can increase the temptation is the amount of sexual energy 'out there'. The amount of images that we can encounter in the most everyday places is truly amazing. For example going shopping now at the check-out counter the magazine covers are getting close to being openly pornographic. Then there is of course the same level of thing through the media- especially TV- through the shows & advertising.

One thing that comes across here that we can use to understand what is dangerous is that all of these things are visual images. I believe that St Nikodemos the Agiorite has a discussion about the temptations of the 5 different senses and of how each temptation operates in a distinct way. The visual temptatiuon if I remember correctly is among the most powerful.

In any case if we are not careful when moving about during our daily life we fall many times and bring home in front of our computer a heart and mind already inclined towards sexual temptation. So we must be aware of this temptation and not carelessly go about our business. The advice we should know about already should be well at work here- "avert your gaze and pray."

The home should also be our safe sanctuary filled with good images such as icons & which pacify the heart & lead it in a godly direction.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Effie Ganatsios]

Leandros writes :


“I use the internet out of professional perversion, but my wife finds no real use of it. She reads books all the time, and she likes to talk to people on the phone. She does not like to talk to people over the internet in a videoconference session because she feels that something fake is manipulating a false "reality". It"s not the person on the other side that bother her, but the illusion of being in a remote place where she sees just a portion of other party"s reality and that portion is that she is being seen by the other. It"s like looking into the eyes of a person in the most impersonal way.

As I said before, she can not produce a personal relation with him because she is there with him only as far as the internet permits this to happen. "

I agree with your wife Leandros as far as anonymity goes - it is something I have thought about often. We don’t know the person we’re communicating with and perhaps he or she is presenting a false persona, but I have also come to the conclusion that some people are often more revealing about themselves when they are writing, much more so than when they are conversing face to face – even if they don’t mean to be. Shyness is a much ignored reality - especially today - and I believe it’s more widely spread than we think. Conversing on the Internet gives shy people a chance to express themselves more openly than they would normally.

I wanted to say something about children and the Internet. Last weekend I was an examiner for the oral English exams and one of the topics for Level 3 was communications. I found that young people – the youngest candidate at this level was 11 I think and the oldest about 18 – are very aware of the dangers of the Internet. They mentioned the lack of social contact with their friends, the dangers of coming into contact with adults who prey on children, the health risks, etc. I found them to be very well informed. Even though their parents buy computers for them to research school subjects I got the impression that playing games is one of the main attractions…… off topic : they were more concerned with the health dangers of mobile phones as even primary schoolchildren use them continuously.

Effie

[Maximos Darnley]

Finally getting back to this discussion I'd like to make several points.

First, thanks Fr Raphael for the reference to St Nikodemos the Agiorite and the temptations of the 5 different senses. I must follow that up.

Effie's point about children being very much aware of the dangers of the Internet is an interesting one. It reminds me of the responsibility that we have to teach the young discernment in their use of this powerful tool.

Effie, that you found children and young adults concerned about the dangers of mobile phones is most heartening. Certainly there are some real issues here in terms of physical health and it's good to see that the young people you worked with have this awareness.

Any mobile phone with WAP capability is also a gateway to the Internet. Many are also coming with the capability for audio and video reception and transmission.

We are witnessing a convergence of technology. In essence the division between the computer with Internet capability and the mobile phone is disappearing.

Maximos

[Irene]

I agree with your wife Leandros as far as anonymity goes - it is something I have thought about often. We don’t know the person we’re communicating with and perhaps he or she is presenting a false persona, but I have also come to the conclusion that some people are often more revealing about themselves when they are writing, much more so than when they are conversing face to face – even if they don’t mean to be. Shyness is a much ignored reality - especially today - and I believe it’s more widely spread than we think. Conversing on the Internet gives shy people a chance to express themselves more openly than they would normally.

I keep thinking about this thread, I guess you can get so carried away writing, trying to express what you believe and think, that you don't realise that it doesn't come out right, it is very easy to offend people when you don't personally know them. When you can't look into their eyes and talk about a subject and debate a little in a friendly way and realise that it's okay to have different opinions.

I always listen to other peoples opinions and accept their right to think differently. As a matter of fact I consider myself to always have been a bit different so I expect people not to agree with me. I just don't like offending people that's where I just don't know if the internet it right for me but I keep coming back to it.

When my children were little they were my whole life and now they are nearly all adults, well of course they have their own lives to lead. I need to make a life for myself. I would like to move closer to a monastery so I could go there everyday that I don't have to work, to help out. :)

irene

[John Charmley]

Dear Irene,

As your post, and earlier ones show, the internet has its uses, and like all the things God gives us, it is open to abuse by us; but that just adds it to the already long list of temptations we must find the strength to resist.

For those of us who live too far away from a monastery, or even too far away from other Orthodox to easily meet, this forum, and the internet which provides it, offers a virtual community. None of us mistakes it for a community where, as you have said elsewhere, we can go to Church with our families; but as long as we realise its limitations, we can celebrate its blessings.

I now 'know' far more Orthodox people than I would without the internet - and (here's another addiction) have bought far more Orthodox books on the net than I ever did off it!

So, some good things - like reading posts from you and some of the other nice people here.

In Christ,

John

[Irene]

Thank you John for your kind post. :) Irene

[Lourens]

Dear Readers and Writers,

I wish to thank Leandros for giving us his persecutive from within the "industry." I learned much from it.

This is the thing: as one who only gained Internet access seven months ago, the first thing I learned was how little I know.

So, it has been a great adventure of discovery and learning. For that, I thank the Lord Who guides me and leads me into all truth.

When we abide in Him, and He abides in us, the Spirit of Holiness informs and orders all and every aspect of our lives, and we cultivate an awareness of His Presence, whether we are in the personal space of the prayer closet, or of PC communication with the whole wide world.

Life as prayer or worship should also regulate our Internet activity and perhaps a good exercise to this would be to do all as the will of God.

A steady disposition to do all as His will and to His glory cultivates the mind of Christ, and brings forth all the necessary censorship and discipline for a sane and sanctified presence on the web.

Respectfully,

Learner