Contraception

[Andonis]

Hi all,

probably a topic that has been talked about profusely in monachos but i wouldn't mind recapping on some aspects. a close orthodox freind of mine recently had a vasectomy. he is married and has had three children. his argument was that he now had his family, was not planning on having any more kids, and did not want to put his wife through the ordeal of oral contraceptives as this is bad for her health. although a logically construed argument, i still feel they are somewhat cheap excuses, for those wishing to enjoy sex without any reproductive aim and avoiding any of the reproductive consequences. and i'm not covinced that just because he is married, makes it any more acceptable to undergo such surgery for the sake of a consequence free sex life, even if it is meant to be with his wife. all opinions welcome...

[Effie Ganatsios]

Antoni, there are other people on this forum who are in a much better position to state what the Orthodox Church’s official position on this matter is but from what I have read, even though contraception is forbidden (here we agree with the Roman Catholics) the Orthodox Church’s position has relaxed a little on this subject.

A few official quotes :

On contraception, its use by married couples for the spacing or limiting of children can be seen as appropriate, but use outside of marriage or for avoiding all procreation in marriage is universally rejected.

Bishop Kallistos Ware, in the second edition (revised 1993) of his book, The Orthodox Church, states:
“Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church. In the past birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a less strict view is coming to prevail, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries. Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful. In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of their own consciences” (page 296).

The Orthodox Church in America, in a recent Synod, addressed this issue, stating:

“Married couples may express their love in sexual union without always intending the conception of a child, but only those means of controlling conception within marriage are acceptable which do not harm a fetus already conceived.”

“Orthodox Christians have always viewed the willful abortion of unborn children as a heinous act of evil. The Church’s canonical tradition identifies any action intended to destroy a fetus as the crime of murder (Ancyra, Canon 21; Trullo, Canon 91; St. Basil, Canon 2).”

Although, these Synod Fathers …. condoned the use of contraception, they rightly acknowledged and pointed-out that some contraceptives are also abortifacients. Their statement also implies the condemnation of contraceptives containing spermicides which are also abortifacient in their secondary effect.”

On to the more personal aspect of this subject :

When you’re married sex is not just an expression of carnal lust or whatever. It is a thousand things put together – it is saying I love you, I still think you’re attractive, I am deeply appreciative of all you do to ensure that your family is OK, I know how tired you are but Hey! Life is still good.

It is many things Antoni – it is an acknowledgement that this dear, dear person is the most important person in your life after God, it is a way of giving each other strength to face the sometimes depressing everyday routine, especially at work. It’s not just about having children. And surely it is better to give and receive love than it is to deny yourself and then spend hours thinking about it!

For those who have chosen celibacy, natural sexual urges are a burden I know, but sexual relations are not “evil” nor do they demean those who have chosen marriage and children.
Sex is only evil when it is used to hurt or humiliate another person.

How many children can you have? 5,10 – how would you raise them in today’s very expensive world? Does this mean that a couple can only have sexual relations when they want to have another child? Theory is OK but we live in a real world and expecting married couples who sleep together to only have sex when they want to increase their family is completely unrealistic. And, most importantly, to regard something that is truly God’s gift to us, as wrong, is also immoral.

I’ve been very frank and I hope that the above will not offend anyone and will be taken in the spirit with which it was written. I know that you are sincere when you ask a question, Antoni, and that’s why I respect you enough to reply the way I've replied to you
.
Effie

[Andonis]

Hello Euterpe,

once again i find your opinion and argument to be very sound. i agree with you. i just wasn't sure how much the orthodox church has come in to step with the times on this issue, knowing that in orthodoxy we often resist that which Modernism tries to impose. in the case of contraception it makes theological sense to allow some flexibility and discretion of the couple, to decide how and when they use it. especially if it is aimed at maintaning the sacredness of the marriage, as blessed and fulfilled as it is meant to be. i fully agree that in today's world bringing up children is becoming increasingly expensive, and difficult considering everybody's increasingly limited time (when technology had promised more time, and increased wealth...).

i guess just the idea of a vasectomy for me at least is a bit much. But nevertheless may sit quite comfortably within the guidelines of the church for a married couple.

[Owen Jones]

I always thought that Origen had the right idea in this respect.

[Stephen Keeler]

Don't forget that, if one is a regular communicant of the Holy Mysteries, and one participates fully in the liturgical life of the Orthodox Church, then fasting before communion means no sex before communion along the same lines as no food. Which leaves, when you count all Sundays and feast Days, a lot fewer than 365 days for spousal nookie. Add to that all fast days (most Wed and Fridays, Great and little Lent, Apostles fast, Dormition fast, etc), and then add to that number all the days when the two of you collapse into bed utterly exhausted (which is directly proportional to the number of kids you already have), and you have Orthodox birth control. Not very scientific, to be sure, but try it before taking any irreversible steps.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Andonis and others,

Yes, this is indeed a topic that has come up in other threads in this Community. You may be interested to read through the archives of messages (some 65+ of them) in the "Birth Control" Among Various Orthodox Groups (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1420) thread.

INXC, Matthew

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

Steven: Where did you get the idea that the food fast also applies to a sexual fast. I have studied the church fathers many times in these regards abd find that I disagree with you. The fathers I think have been quite clear on this. If I am wrong please cite sources. I do not want to be mislead, or misleed.

[John Wilson]

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!

Dear Ronald,

my short answer would be from 1 Corinthians 7:5


Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.

My understanding of fasting is that it is never done on its own, but should always be accompanied by prayer otherwise it is of no spiritual value. So it follows that the days when we fast, should also be devoted to prayer. Hence comes abstinence from sex.
Also, fasting is all about not giving in to the desires of the flesh, and I can't think of a more fleshy desire than sex (except perhaps a juicy veal fillet in a mushroom, bacon and cream sauce accompanied with a glass of wine and followed by a double chocolate icecream sundae, all while lazing on a sunny mediterranian beach).

Consider also that as a married couple progress in faith and holiness, through prayer and fasting, they will also gradually take on more aspects of the angelic life and possibly even end up reflecting the reality of heaven while still on earth: "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."
I know of one family where father, mother, son and daughter have all entered monasteries. The father and son in one and the mother and daughter in another.

John.

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

John: I might state that your Biblical quote is correct, but I still stand by my research. I will have to go back and find what I read. At this time I do not have time to do this, but will get back to you all.

[Stephen Keeler]

Richard,
A worthy endeavor, timely in this day and age. You might also look at St. Theophan the Recluse and ST. John of Kronstadt for more recent commentary on this topic.

And, to elaborate on John's points, there is no better way to break a fast. Certainly none I know, and if in my life I can contribute in one area, it's how to break a fast.

[Stephen Keeler]

Sorry Ronald, I mixed up your name.

[Justin]

Every time I try to enter into a discussion on this topic I end up having a bad experience, so I'll just say two things:

Generally speaking, contraception is not allowed (nor was it allowed by any Orthodox Christian group into the 1960's).

Personally/individually speaking, it's something we need to ask our spiritual father's about. Having stated a general principle (about any moral guideline, from lust to contraception), it's not our job to be the "morals police" of our brothers (unless Christian love requires, due to unique circumstances, that we intervene in a specific case, as for example when we discipline our children, confront our uncle concerning his alcohol addiction, etc.)

http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[M.C. Steenberg]

Ronald recently wrote:


Where did you get the idea that the food fast also applies to a sexual fast. I have studied the church fathers many times in these regards abd find that I disagree with you. The fathers I think have been quite clear on this.

Dear Ronald,

In fact, the teaching of the Church is quite clear that periods of prescribed fasting, specifically do including abstinence from otherwise blessed marital sexual relations, as well as from various foods, social activities, etc.

I will provide you, as soon as I am able, with some sources in the patristic witness that provide the basis for this understanding, which I should note at present is the common teaching of all the Orthodox churches.

INXC, Matthew

[Heather M]

Hi Andonis--

I know of a sort of "natural" birth control that an Orthodox married couple that I know of use. There are no drugs or "procedures" involved at all. And while I don't know the details, I know that it requires both parties to contribute much effort. More so on the woman's part, because she has to monitor her cycle very closely. It is a method that requires much self-control and discipline. But isn't this true of ALL things that we do?

I have also understood that fasting is not simply regarding food, but also many other aspects of our lives...Our parish priest encouraged us during Lent to fast from the television as well. It really makes alot of sense.

Pray for me....heather

[Richard Leigh]

To all and sundry,

I have also understood that fasting is not simply regarding food, but also many other aspects of our lives...Our parish priest encouraged us during Lent to fast from the television as well.---Heather

True enough, but, speaking from their experience, the fathers made a specific correlation between appetite for food and sexual expression. This is not doubt the source or their connection in fasting.

Richard

[Effie Ganatsios]

John, I liked your juicy veal fillet etc. etc. We make our own wine and believe me, it's terrific! AND no headache the next day because it's pure!

Veal's almost impossible to get here - where do you get yours?.....

I shouldn't be on the computer today because we are having the oral Edexcel International exams and I'm an examiner. I couldn't resist looking in though. Should this forum also be banned during times of fasting?

Effie

[George Hawkins]

Christ is Risen!
I have never heard that it is OK for marital relations on Fast days. After all, if a layman is unable to commune due to a nocturnal emmission then surely marital relations are out too.

Maybe Effie is right about abstaining from the internet during fasting time. If it occupies your mind and your heart, it is probably not appropriate during a fast, likewise TV. I tried to abstain from TV during Great Lent, but then the war started and I ended up watching the news in the evenings, so while I started weith good intentions, I ended up breaking the fast in that sense.
Indeed He is Risen!
George

[Fr Averky]

Mr. Brotzman.

When the Church speaks of "bodily fasting," she means just that. If one is to keep the rules strictly, then marital relations are not to take place during any fasting period, including all of the four lents of the church -Great Lent, The Peter and Paul Fast, the Dormition Fast, and the Christmas Fast. If a couple, or either the husband or wife intend to receive holy communion on Sunday, then they are forbidden to have marital relations.

As to contraceptives, what the Bishops of the OCA say is correct - many contraceptives are abortives, thus forbidden. However, in her mercy, the Church, through the authority of her bishops can deal with individual cases and needs. I once had a woman parishioner who, at the birth of her third child,. nearly died. Her physician warned that should she become pregnant again, she seriously faced the real possiblity of losing not only the life of her child, but her own. The doctor suggested that she have a tubal ligation as soon as possible. I wrote to the bishop concerning this, and he right away wrote back, saying that he gave his blessing, for this woman could not put herself in such danger, and the danger of leaving behind her husband and three young children. As I have said in so many threads, when we talk to our priests and receive their advice and blessing, and if needs be, they talk to the local ruling bishop on our behalf and he makes and exception and gives his blessing - then we know that God has blessed us, and we are not guilty of having been self-willed and sinful. Whenever we ask for and receive a blessing, then we know that we are "safe, "for we have put the decision into the hands of those who have been given the grace and authority to help us in that manner. It is one of the real beauties of Holy Orthodoxy.

What amazes me is that some of these discussion start out because there those who seem to be spending a lot of time judging the actions of their neighbor, rather than looking at their own sinfulness. We can always ask sincere questions, without including what we consider "wrong" about others. God is full of love, understanding, and mercy, and so should we, if we are to call ourselves followers of Christ. We must be mindful that when Our Saviour was with us on this earth, He came not to judge -but to save. Judgement is God's alone -let us help each other all we can. Effie, I appreciate your answers, because they are thoughtful and mature. God bless you!

Father Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Hi everybody,

I've been waiting with baited breath for the answer to what I took the original question to have been: What about vasectomy-- acceptable or not? Is there a duty to bear and raise the next generation incumbent on marriage? (I would think so within God's will). More specifically, what power or control do the marrieds have in the number and spacing of their offspring, if any?

So, any takers?

Richard

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Fr. Averky,

The way I read you, you have already answered the question. At least as far as married couples' freedom to consult with the shepherding authority of the church regarding limitations on procreation is concerned. Since tubal ligation is allowable (understanably on a case by case review) I presume the same goes for vasectomy. It might even be considered preferrable given its alternative being one more time for the wife to be unneccissarily under the knife. Right?

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

Give me until Monday to consult an expert on that. Questions which could have been answered in common by the Orthodox Church in the past seem to be up for grabs by various church leaders these days. Not too long ago, when asked about contraception, abortion, and so on, one of the most powerful Orthodox hieerarchs stated that it is not the place of the church to look into the bedrooms of the faithful. I cannot agree with this insofar as the church need to guard her children from sin, taking a firm stand when the popular views of the times begin to teach ideas which are contrary to Christian moral law. If the church can begin to look the other way in regards to abortion and abortive birth control because popular opinion has decided that it is alright, then in time she can look the other away at assisted suiucide and euthanasia

Within the last ten years, a friend of mine who is a priest in another Orthodox Church in this country, tells me of how at a meeting of clergy and laity, a young priest stood up to give a position paper on the The Right to Life and the Right to Choose issue, speaking out in suppport of anti - abortion measures. Before he could finish, the top ranking prelate told him to stop, for the floor of such an assembly was not the place for such "political issues." The priest answered by saying, that with all due repsect, this is not just a political issue, but more importantly, it is a spiritual -moral issue, one which has to be approached by the teachings of the Church in her canons and the writings of the holy Fathers.

I will ask someone who knows better than I, Richard, and will let you know soon. I will not give you my own opinion. At the moment , I can only venture to say that preventing the future conception of children should only be done for personal health or safety, or, if there might circumstances of extreme hardship, and in that case, only with the blessing of the local bishop. To end the possibility of conception for purely selfish and personal reasons can never be acceptable to God or to the Church. Over the centuries, the Church has had to deal with every possible moral and ethical quandry, and has to meet each age with its own sets of possibilities and problems.

While relying upon the sacred canons and teachings of the Fathers of the Church, in these end times, we have to hope that contemporary ecclesiastical authorites will not fall to the temptation of applying "economia" too freely, challenging the long standing traditions of the church.

For centuries, for example, the Orthodox Church clearly stated that there is no possibility for women to ever be admitted to the priesthood. I am told that in one of the more recent editions of "The Orthodox Church," Bishop Kallistos Ware states that the ordination of women is "an open question." Whereas this might be the opinion of one bishop alone, the fact that it is a book known to be the classic "first book" for many convers to Orthodoxy, there is a possibility of causing some confusion.

However, for me, the bottom line, as I have stated in more than one thread now, is that when in doubt, or when starting even a good thing, ask God' s blessing upon that endeavor. It is always the safe and sensible thing to do.

Father Averky

[James Keenan]

Quote:
"And, most importantly, to regard something that is truly God's gift to us, as wrong, is also immoral."

What about pot? Is marijuana a gift to man?

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear James:

Yes. Marijuana is a gift to man inasmuch as it is wonderful for clothing. However, to abuse this gift in order to get 'high,' as you seem to be implying, is unnecessary and certainly contrary to God's Will.

Aaron

[Andrew James]

I would be interested to hear what the other priests on this forum have to say about contraception?

[Father David Moser]

I would be interested to hear what the other priests on this forum have to say about contraception?

I would "second" everything Fr Averky posted and add only a few comments of my own. Many of the most popular forms of contraception (the ones that permit a person to "take it and forget it" like birth control pills) are either outright abortifacents which promote a technical miscarriage (not allowing the fertilized egg to implant for example) or if this is not their primary function, it is a secondary function (in case the primary function of inhibiting ovulation fails). As Orthodox Christians we cannot in any way participate in the taking of a life, especially the life of an innocent child and thus even the possibility of abortion must be avoided. There are, however, some forms of contraceptions (barriers for example) that are not even possibly abortifacent and thus could be used when needed.

There is also the question of a tubal ligation or vasectomy. Unless medically necessary for the health of the person, these procedures are no more than self mutilation and as such are prohibited by the Church.

However, the deeper question is why would one want to prevent the conception of children? One might answer this question by referring to the "pleasure" and "intimacy" which are part of the sexual act - but then intimacy and pleasure in marriage are much much more than just this and do not depend on sexual relations. Part of the sexual encounter between a man and woman is the possibility of conceiving a child (which, speaking as a parent, is one of the most intimate and long term pleasurable results of intercourse, btw). Why in the world would anyone want to have an incomplete intimacy and an incomplete pleasure? It is only the modern concept of pleasure for pleasure's sake that would suggest such a thing - so that one can pick and choose only the "pleasures" that they want and leave behind the ones that involve such horrible consequences as responsibility, love, commitment, etc.

As Orthodox Christians, we should accept all that God gives with joy. There are times when it is necessary to prevent the conception of children and as a concession to the weakness of the couple (who would be unable to abstain for a longer period of time, perhaps the remainder of their lives) the spiritual father might find that it would be beneficial to the salvation of the couple to use some form of birth control. (But like any "exception" this should not be undertaken on one's own initiative, but only in consultation with one's confessor). The whole purpose of our lives in this world is to prepare for the next and so the criterion for anything that we do is the working out of our salvation. Thus it is necessary to involve your spiritual physician in all such decisions - not so the clergy or church can "control" you but rather so that you can do what is best for your acquisition of the Holy Spirit, your transformation by grace and your entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Fr David Moser

[Effie Ganatsios]

Father David, I know that we should feel free to discuss everything with our spiritual fathers, but lots of women feel uncomfortable discussing such intimate matters with their spiritual fathers, who are men.

People of my age might feel comfortable discussing intimate matters with our friends, or listening to discussions on TV - although I am sometimes astounded by some of the things women feel free to discuss in front of men, but when there is no specific problem, discussing what happens in your bedroom with your priest is not something that is easy to do.

Most women feel like this, and usually avoid such discussions.

Orthodox priests are usually very discreet and would never think of initiating such a discussion unless specifically asked by someone who is troubled. This, at least, has been my experience. I have never had such a discussion with my spiritual father.

[Mary]

Father David, I know that we should feel free to discuss everything with our spiritual fathers, but lots of women feel uncomfortable discussing such intimate matters with their spiritual fathers, who are men.

Assuming that such questions would only surface if both husband and wife are alive, why do the men not ask their spiritual fathers? Would the answer not be the same for both? Why must the woman be the one to talk of such matters to the spiritual father? Or would the wife not believe what their spiritual father tells her husband, unless she also hears it?

just asking. =)

[Father David Moser]

Father David, I know that we should feel free to discuss everything with our spiritual fathers, but lots of women feel uncomfortable discussing such intimate matters with their spiritual fathers, who are men.

A woman alone should never really have to address this with her confessor since this is only an issue for a married couple. That being the case both husband and wife, having come to an agreement together should then go and as a couple, discuss this with their spiritual father. This is not an issue for just one person, but for two since it impacts both the husband and the wife.

Fr David Moser

[Effie Ganatsios]

Assuming that such questions would only surface if both husband and wife are alive, why do the men not ask their spiritual fathers? Would the answer not be the same for both? Why must the woman be the one to talk of such matters to the spiritual father? Or would the wife not believe what their spiritual father tells her husband, unless she also hears it?

just asking. =)

Mary, it is not a matter of trust. If there is no trust in a marriage then it is not a marriage.

It is just that when there is a problem it is usually the woman who is more comfortable seeking help.

I realise that we are not the people our grandparents were and that, unlike the Orthodox who belong to the Old Calendar, we tend to rely on ourselves and not on our spiritual father concerning matters such as this. Unfortunately.

Effie