Orthodoxy and friendships/relationships

[Chuck S.]

Greetings in the name of the Lord.

Wow, its been a long time since I've posted here. But I'm hoping someone can give me some advice or insight.

My question may seem a little weird, or complicated so I'll do my best to explain.

What is the Orthodox perspective on human friendships/relationships. I mean either friendships (like having someone like a "best" friend" normally of the same sex) or having a relationship that could lead to marriage between two people of the opposite sex. What Im asking is not if this is ok, cuz obviously it is. What Im asking is well, sort of hard to explain.

See, I've always been an extremely shy person. Im not as shy as I once was, now that I'm Orthodox, God has really helped me out in this area, but I still consider myself shy. I still have trouble making friends, and I'm not sure I've ever had someone in my entire life, that I could really confide in. I mean the kind of person that I've been completely comfortable in just being myself. Partly because not only am I shy, but by nature I'm a quiet person. (and I enjoy being quiet, and enjoy solitude at times so I'm not against it)

But I've never had someone who I could really open up to. I'm not sure I could ever do that with another guy, because I was raised a certain way, but I do think perhaps I could do so with whomever, God leads me to marry. If indeed He leads me there.

My question is this though, is it normal for an Orthodox person to desire friendship in this way? Often I feel guilty about this, because I feel like I'm betraying Christ, by desiring this sort of relationship with a fellow sinful human being when I should be satisfied with having Christ. (and I am satisfied, by far with the Lord. But still I sometimes want a close relationship with other people)

I know that married couples have this, and I know this is God ordained and not wrong. My question is, is it wrong to desire this sort of thing, when one doens't have it? (whether its marriage or just a "best friend" type of thing)

I have quite a number of aquantences, and a couple people I would call "friends" but none, that I would completely open up to. I only do this with Christ. But sometimes desire that with my fellow man. Am I betraying Christ, or am I saying Christ isn't enough by this?

Does anyone understand what I'm asking or did I just confuse everyone? LOL!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

In Christ, Thomas (Chuck)

[John Curtis Dunn]

Shyness often is a symptom of self-pride.

I am afraid of not being accepted.
I am afraid of appearing ignorant.
I am afraid of being mis-understood.

These fears bind us with isolation, which as you are no doubt aware, God did not make man to be alone. This does not mean solitude is wrong, or even the enjoyment of solitude, but even that later can be evidence of self-pride.

Please note, I said evidence of, not proof.

As to your comment and subsequent question: ...by desiring this sort of relationship with a fellow sinful human being when I should be...is it wrong to desire this sort of thing, when one doesn't have it? satisfied with having Christ.;

Our Lord told his disciples that they were no longer servants but friends. Our Lord drew three with Him to the Mountain of Transfiguration. Our Lord said, there are many other things I want to tell you, but you cannot bear them.

A friend can be closer than a brother, the latter ofen seeing himself as a rival, rather than rejoicing in the good things given to you. We often hold expectations for our siblings which we may not hold for our friends.

Remember also, that Abraham was known as the friend of God. We see the depth of the friendship in the story of the visitation of the three Angels. God did not hide his friendship [love] from Abraham, but even revealed his secret council; to which Abraham interceded for mercy for even those who were enemies.

The most important aspect of friendship is befriending, which means being of service to someone, such as the good Samaritian, who showed himself to be a friend

There is more that could be written, but this is only an opener for further discussion.

your friend,
john dunn

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Thomas,
Christ is in our midst,

The type of relationship you describe, what many years ago was called friendship, God may or may not allow for each one of us. To recognise that such a relationship could be basically good-well, such close bonds did exist between some of the Holy Fathers. (We make a mistake if we believe that the Fathers were all fierce & aloof or that we must become like this as we grow in Christ).

But it is for Christ to give. The more we feel friendship is necessary for us as human beings the more loneliness & bitterness will stalk our path. Even a demanding kind of pride can creep in without our seeing it. What can we do?

We must struggle to live in Christ and love our neighbour as our very being. For it is this lack which at times creates our own loneliness. I believe that it was St. Dionysios the Areopogite who used the image of a wheel with spokes; if we are in Christ (the centre of the wheel) we are automatically connected to the spokes(our fellow man & creation). If we thru the struggle of self-denial & against pride could begin to love, to have compassion for what now irritates us -and all in Christ & thru Christ- well then- we would have such a bond with others that would outshine any issue of friendships. Then others are our brothers & sisters in Christ.

Is not this part of our 'final struggle' in the Orthodox life? (ie. lifelong). So then let us strugle & struggle. And someone pray for me.

In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

[Melissa]

Dear Chuck S.

The old adage "to have a friend, be a friend" is sometimes a challenge to people who believe they are shy [I'm one, although I'm "in recovery" http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif ], but it is none the less true. If you can love your brothers and sisters in Christ as He loves you (an ongoing project for all of us!), without anxiety, you will be led into the type life Christ has ordained for you. At one time in my life I was very lonely, and the more I tried to make it go away, the worse it got. When I allowed myself to stop fighting and see the riches I had already been granted by our Lord, my life became a happy one (by which I mean, full of meaning, though not always 'laugh-happy') again. I began to notice people crossing my path, and when I was able to let the potential relationships/friendships unfold at their own pace, I began to feel less lonely. In this particular process the most useful prayer for me was "Thy will not my will" (although I continued my other prayers, this was like a mantra!) It helped me with humililty, and with anxiety, as I had to learn to trust in Christ's promises to us. Christ can (and should in my heart/mind) be the glue that holds a friendship or other relationship together.

I hope these words about my experience may be of some help or reassurance to you. Feeling lonely, shy, desirous of friends or someone to love, can feel like 40 days in the desert, until you find an oasis. He will be there - and perhaps another or others, to keep you company along the Way.

In Christ, Melissa

[Melissa]

Dear Fr. Raphael,
Please, pray for me, a sinner.

"If we thru the struggle of self-denial & against pride could begin to love, to have compassion for what now irritates us"
You may have been 'reading' the darkest part of my heart...

..."all in Christ & thru Christ- well then- we would have such a bond with others that would outshine any issue of friendships. Then others are our brothers & sisters in Christ."
And read the hope that lies within.

I struggle so with irritation lately, and thank you mightily for especially these of your words to Thomas.

In Christ, Melissa

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

maybe if you have not already got one go to see a spiritual father, ideally one should open them selves up completely with everything they can remember at the time and pray that God helps them for it is by grace that man can recieve forgiveness and not by his works, this is maybe a quote but i could be wrong, i am just saying even though there is a limited time-depends on circumstances between a spiritual child and father, we should in time as it seems pleasing to God reveal everything in our hearts and minds for while we recieve forgiveness there is a very real mystery taking place!! we our in the presence of God revealing to Him what we can in our measure and with our spiritual father the mystery is taking place, i cannot and wont try to describe the mystery of confession, not everyone is in a circumstance when or where they can see one but if one is then excellant if not then i am sure if one tries God will find a way for that person, God be with you always,
with love in Christ
Charalambos

[Daniel Jeandet]

"Be every mans freind, but in your heart remain alone." Saint Isaac the syrian.

I dont know if that is helpful, I just take any opportunity to quote this saint.

I believe that the more we rely on God and ask Him to help when we are sad or lonely or ill or seeking repentance, the more we become aware of His consolation and the less we seek consolation from others. We may even avoid the consolation of people, knowing that in doing this we prove our devotion to the Lord as the one who is everything and provides everything. Seeking Gods consolation, we learn about his unlimited love and care for us and this knowledge illumines our relationships with others by clearly revealing the limits of what people can give or recieve, this protects us from expecting too much or deluding ourselves into thinking we can provide for others something we cannot, and that attempting to provide it, we may interfere with our friends need to learn to seek the consolation of Christ.

I hope what I have written is okay. Please anyone correct me if its wrong. I dont know if this is an Orthodox answer but I remember reading about this somewhere and I am just writing what I remember.

[Melissa]

Dear Daniel J.,
Your words resonated with me in many ways. One of the saints I feel drawn to is St. Ephraim the Syrian, and I think he speaks to things in or implied by your post, as well as offering some illumination on one way we can think about/prepare to help others, which I think we can do because God uses us for His purposes; although as you said, we have to know our limits in both what we can "do" and what we can expect from others, remembering that we can do nothing by oursleves, but only through Christ (a paraphrase).

Some quotes from St. Ephraim the Syrian:
"O Christ the Savior! Grant me my heart's request, that my tongue might become like unto a sweet-sounding flute; that by comforting, enlightening, and educating others, I might pay off a small portion of my great debt and, protected by Thy mercy, I might be saved when every soul is set trembling before Thy terrifying glory."

"Be sobered O my soul and pray with tears. Cry out from all thy heart that before the end comes thou mightest be converted and make a good start."

"Do not be ashamed to turn back and say boldly, "I will arise and go to my Father. Arise and go!"

"But before you say anything He will already know what you intend to say. Before you open your lips, He will see what is in your heart. You will not be able to say "I have sinned" before you see Him stretch forth his hands to receive and embrace you."

"I have nothing to offer thee, neither a good deed nor a pure heart; but hoping in Thy compassion I lay myself down, that Thou mightest bring me to contrition and unwavering observance of Thy commandments, that I might not fall so easily into sin again, but serve Thee from henceforth in reverence and truth all the days of my life."

I'm inspired by St. Ephraim's assurance of God's love for us, and also by His unwavering commitment to our need to repent, hoping always for the mercy of our Lord. If we could live as St. Ephraim tells us (echoed by our good priests on Monachos), would we not truly illumine our relationships, by the Grace of and to the glory of God?

A sinner praying to be better-
Melissa

[Daniel Jeandet]

Mellisa, thank you for These words of Saint Ephraim. I remember Elder Sophrony in one of his books saying that our relationship to the people around us is a reflection of our life of prayer. I dont know how many times this thought has convicted me.

Another beautiful saying is one of Mother Gavrilias - "He who does not want to be with other people is not human".

I interperet this in two ways - The one who avoids other people out of a lack of love for others and an ignorence of our true nature, and the one who is so filled with real, divine love, who has risen above the image and gained the likeness and lives as an angel on earth, who avoids people to be closer to God.

If you like Saint Ephraim, you might want to find a copy of his "spiritual psalter". This is a very beautiful book of his prayers compiled by Saint Theophan the recluse. It is published by Saint John of Kronstadt press. It is one of my few treasured possesions.

[Chuck S.]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their informative and heartfelt replies to my question. I appreciate all the answers and advice I've been given. I'll try to use it and continue to pray.

Thanks again,

In Christ, Chuck

[Fr Averky]

Dear Daniel,

Thank you for your words, for they are helpful for all of us, even as a good reminder.

Concerning another thread, the one on humour. Please Daniel, do not do "spiritual experiments" on yourself, even something as seemingly harmless as smiling and laughter. As you and I know, the Devil can move in on very spiritual matters and turn them ugly. and very frightening.

May God bless and preserve you.

Fr. A.

[Melissa]

Dear Daniel J.,
Thank you for your comments. The quotations I posted were all from my copy of the Psalter, which I found in the bookstore at Jordanville in Dec., 2000. It's the foundation of my prayer life and preparation for confession and communion. And like yours, it's one of my special treasures. Nice to know someone else treasures it, too.
Melissa

[helen]

I would also like to ask a question regarding friends and what people we are around in....I enjoy being with people that I have a few similar interests in..but if those people start to talk about things that are silly jokes or just gossip , what do I do or say?
Do I continue to be with those people or do I simply say a hello and keep myself away from them?

I find that if I dont have many people around me to talk to(not all people) , then I feel better.....
I admit, that I have also taken part of gossip and silly stupid non sense jokes ....is it not better that I take myself away from that situation and not be a part of it or hear any of it?
I sometimes sit on my own and think of things that I had done and hurt people with hateful words,, but I also have taken part of gossip.And taking myself away from that situation works for me.... Being around some people that continious do this, upset me and I would rather be on my own then be around people that do this ....I say my hellos and im friendly to people (sometimes I get upset with some)but should I take the time to be part of the inner circle of friends because it is good for me to be around people?
Sorry for sounding all over the place.....
eg....today most people want to be MODERN and be like everyone and do and look like every body else....am I not sinning if I just be with them and join in there lifestyle?
I must admit, that many times I dont want to be around many people because I dont feel good about myself....I would rather be alone ....
please pray for me a sinner,
helen...
Fr Averky,Bless,
Im happy to see that you are here and doing well...

Please forgive me if my words above dont make much sense.....

[Rose]

Thank you Helen for bringing back some wonderful memories of my mother. I never heard her speak ill of anyone, never gossiped, never told jokes. Yet she was one of kindest persons I knew. She didn't have hardly any friends though, but I don't think that meant much to her anyway.

I remember in her later years, her niece Anastasia came to visit her on a vacation. She apoligized to my mother for being rude to her years earlier because my mother would not indulge in gossiping with the rest of the family. Anastasia's parents had passed away and she turned to my mother for guidance.

I think my mother made a choice early in life to be like our Holy Mother and lived that choice to the best of her ability. I never met anyone like her.

If you remember Helen, please say a prayer for my mother Marie. She passed away in 1986.

Rose

[Melissa]

Dear Helen,
Your words and your honesty touch my heart. I don't have any wise words for you, but can say I have a similar struggle at times, more often than I like. I'm reminded that we have one great "lover of mankind" who will not let us down, gossip or betray us, or ever leave us. Keeping my prayer life active, attending services, spending time with my Orthodox friends, are all comforting - yet in some ways the circle of friends grows smaller. I don't think I've been called to retreat from the world, so I withdraw from those whose lives I recognize as spiritually dangerous, and try to find others to be with who are spiritually alive. Attempting to do this without judging others.

Your concern seems to pull together some of the other threads/posts on laughter, levity, gossip of course, friendship, etc. How difficult it gets to live as faithfully as we can, perhaps especially in our Western cultures (I'm not sure about that, it's just the only one I know well). And Father Averky's and Father Raphael's recent posts about equality and unity, too - my husband and I are the only Orthodox in our families - how do we share their important moments - weddngs, funerals and baptisms, especially - and remain faithful Orthodox?

I know I've gone beyond your post, Helen; it raised some interesting and necessary issues, I believe. Thank you for raising these questions to the discussion group.
Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear Helen,

What you speak of is common to us all, and while we are desirous of living a good Orthodox Chrstian life, being mindful of how our words can condemn us, we iivie in in a worl not only not Orthodox, but in our dark days, in a world in which Christianity is in retreat.

Yet, even in Orthodox societies, people all face the same temptation from the Devil combined with their lack of virtues-humility, patience, long-suffering, upon which he trives. And sadly, mostof the time we Because of our own weakness and do not have to be tempted, we happily jump into sin all on our own.

It is a tragedy that the Art of Conversation is dead.

When I was a boy, we had a very large house which later my mother sold to the YMCA. She in those years was very fond of giving dinner parties with many guests, and would invite them go arrive about an hour dinner was to be served. We had one very large room called the "blue" salon because of its color scheme. There were enough chairs for about forty people (more could be brought in if needed),set up in groups of two, three, and four. For that hour before dinner, people would engage in the most interesting conversations on a great variety of subjects. These intimate little settings provided for a single guest to sit with a married couple, and so on. Many times, one of the topics discussed became the general talk at the table, making for a pleasant social occasion.

Now, that type of conversation opportunity does almost not exit. I read last year that never in the history of mankind has the world been bombarded by so much news and information, and yet have become totally lethargic when it comes to interest in the arts, literature, poetry, and classical music, which what trhe people talked about at my other's dinners. Now, going ito someoe's home, all you hear is blaring televisions and conversation is about the latest sensational scandal or kidnapping..

On the other hand, ill informed Orthodox Christians can go completely the other direction. There is a man living in New York who for a time had a following of people, and he acted as "Elder." He insisted that true Orthodox Christians may only converse about lives of the saints, the Sacred Canons, the Bible, and the Fathers. He himself alone had the right to judge all Orthodox Churches for their lack of zeal, and new all the latest Church gossip. Thankfully in time, his followers saw that he is spiritual poison, and abandoned him.

Helen, I have given you two extrems, so the solutionm is, as always, the Royal Middle Path, Moderation in all things.When you find yourself in a social situation where you are a guest, if the converation turns to gossip or silly things, do not look annoyed or upset,
but do not participate, or if possible change the subject.

I have been situations where some people chatting, (forgetting that I was close by) say, in the next room began saying something unseemly, sometimes including an off-color joke ,and an Orthodox person would not react. Some would ask them if they did not find it amusing, and the reply would be, "Oh,I was not paying attention to what was being said. Usually after, no more silliness was forcoming,

Of course we need to speak to people, after nearly a year as a relative recluse, I have been joining the Brotherhood fr meals, and it brings me joy just to see other monks. Although my time alone has proven very valuable, I began to realize that I should be with fellow monks to keep my life in balance. If you have a group of friends, keep them but ,simply practise moderation for yourself, and in time, believe me, it will be noticed.

Fr. A.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky,

Reading thru the postings this morning I was struck by one sentence you wrote, "It is a tragedy that the Art Of Conversation is dead."

Is that because the Art of Manners is dead? I remember in my first Orthodox parish there was an older pre-revolutionary Russian gentleman who used to get up and give a slight bow whenever a woman walked into the room. For someone who was just trying to get over the mantra 'do your own thing', it was quite impressive.

Over the years I have seen of course the continual degradation of human values as selfishness is raised to the levels of an actual religion. We are convinced we are being 'liberated' but this seems in truth to be only a 'liberation' from kindness and sensitivity.
At seminary we had a priest-professor who told us that we do not recognise the degree to which pride has marked our culture. So as a priest responsable for other's souls & also as an Orthodox Christian I have spent many years trying to recognise this, in at least some small degree. I have spent many years reading the history of culture (secular-wise I am trained in history)and just plain 'looking around'. And to make a long story short, yes I also remember when good conversation, and kind dispassionate talk formed what were called friendships. In dealing with the many psychological problems in those we see these days I often wonder how society in general is affecting this. After all in the past when you were surrounded by a 'gang of friends' how could you not feel loved, or how could you develop a complex about how you looked? And how much is loneliness & lack of true social relationship behind may inward problems?

The criticism & rejection of almost everything that precedes us (social & cultural tradition) leaves a gaping abyss in the human soul; there is simply nothing there except for the fads & opinion of today. Nihilism is no longer a philosophy, it is now a way of life. One word of supposed criticism of the past (it is indicative that we even hear this within the Church) is ; 'it's baroque'. With this one word we are supposed to run in terror from the past without even knowing what the word means. The Baroque Age is the last 'age' in the West before the elite begins to consciously reject Christianity as the driving force of society. Here we find the Art of Conversation, of manners, of appearance, etc. It would be the generation of revolution & Romanticism that would effectivly destroy this accusing it of being 'un-natural & hypocritical'. And this legacy is still with us.

I see over the years that many Orthodox gradually, somewhat apart from their spiritual life (of course there is no strict seperation) try to humanise their lives. One well-known monastery stated that 'before we can produce novices we have to produce humans; and so set the novices to Classical music & reading literature. So we are a 'strange people' not only religiously, but often culturally. For the good of society may it be so!

In Christ- Fr R

[Melissa]

Dear Father Raphael and Fr. Averky,

What an interesting and challenging in some ways trend this discussion has taken. I only want to say now that the best, deepest, and most meaningful conversations - those around a dinner table, or in an evening spent before...each other! - Sam and I have are with our Orthodox friends, or the friends we have who, while not Orthodox, are fully engaged in Christianity as they understand it, and are open to sharing their life experiences through they eyes of their faith.

This is not in any way to refute your comments, but to rejoice that in some ways, conversation about what matters may still have a tentative foothold. Certainly our culture doesn't raise it up as a value or skill...

Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Helen,

Thank you for sharing your memories of your beloved mother-a truly blessed woman. She is the kind of person of which it can be said of her repose, "The gates of heaven swung open, and her soul was met by Christ." And Helen, her spiritual beauty shines to us through you..


humbly,

Father Averky

[helen]

I would like to thank you all for listening to me and your kind words....
Rose I will say a prayer for your mother and you say a prayer for my family and I .....Please forgive me if anything was out of line..
Fr Averky thank you for your wise words...Fr Bless..

My husband is Roman Catholic Italian.....my daughter, I babtised Russian Orthodox at around the age of 7 yrs old (before that I did take her to a R.Catholic church and was only babtised by spinkling water on her head )....only later I spoke to a presbitera whom I happen to become friends with (at the time she was not a prespitera) and was told that as a mother I know what is best for my daughter (my husband did not mind, but with my in laws there were problems)
I at first was happy for my daughter to be R.Catholic only because I did not see any difference in the Christian faith (since we all worshiped the Lord Jesus Christ) but later through certain circumstances, I found out that Orthodoxy the one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is the true faith I changed my mind and did what was right......there was a few problems but all is ok now!

I do believe that you become like the people with whom you are with....that is why I do limit who I seek friendship with ....and I know that if I sin and I do sin, then I can only blame my self and ask God for forgiveness for my fall...
Sorry for going off the subject .
all take care.
Pray for me
helen...

[Fr John Wehling]

Friends,

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

I am forever(and shamelessly)pushing books! Forgive me for tempting you if your budget is like mine.

A nice book published by Eighth Day Books is "The Feast of Friendship," by Fr Paul O'Callaghan, the Dean of St George Orthodox Cathedral (Antiochian) in Wichita, KS. It is available here (http://www.eighthdaybooks.com/eighth_day_press.html).

May Paradise Consume Us!
Fr John

[R.J.G.]

Hello, again. I spent three months in a convent, but now I'm back in the states for the next two weeks to pick up my visa.

Maybe one of the hieromonks can answer this question: What about monastics? I've read that monastics aren't really supposed to be particularly close to any one person, but I've noticed that such a thing kind of happens naturally, especially if only a third of your monastery speaks English.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear RJG;

In the monastery we must always seek the cousel & guidance of our spiritual father or mother in such matters.

In general we must struggle against having 'friendships' in a monastery for these often become emotional relationships that inhibit our growth in Christ.

Also forming friendships with those of like language could perhaps lead to a division along language lines in the convent; something perhaps harmful both for the convent & in the eyes of the abbess.

In all things we must try to see our struggle not in the context of what is 'natural' but rather in terms of what may or may not be sinful. 'Ask you father (in this case mother I guess) & he will tell you' -you can't go wrong in this way.

May you be led by Christ and His Most-Pure Mother dear RJG- hieromonk Raphael

[Waldemar]

Ecclesiasticus 6:1
Instead of a friend become not an enemy to thy neighbour: for an evil man shall inherit reproach and shame, so shall every sinner that is envious and double tongued.

Ecclesiasticus 6:7
If thou wouldst get a friend, try him before thou takest him, and do not credit him easily.

Ecclesiasticus 6:8
For there is a friend for his own occasion, and he will not abide in the day of thy trouble.

Ecclesiasticus 6:13
Separate thyself from thy enemies, and take heed of thy friends.

Ecclesiasticus 6:14
A faithful friend is a strong defence: and he that hath found him, hath found a treasure.

Ecclesiasticus 6:15
Nothing can be compared to a faithful friend, and no weight of gold and silver is able to countervail the goodness of his fidelity.

Ecclesiasticus 6:16
A faithful friend is the medicine of life and immortality: and they that fear the Lord, shall find him.

Ecclesiasticus 6:17
He that feareth God, shall likewise have good friendship: because according to him shall his friend be.

Ecclesiasticus 9:14
Forsake not an old friend, for the new will not be like to him.

Ecclesiasticus 9:15
A new friend is as new wine: it shall grow old, and thou shalt drink it with pleasure.

Ecclesiasticus 12:8
A friend shall not be known in prosperity, and an enemy shall not be hidden in adversity.

Ecclesiasticus 12:9
In the prosperity of a man, his enemies are grieved: and a friend is known in his adversity.

[Andrea]

Hi, I'm new to this community, and to Orthodoxy (currently a catechumen). Shall I depart? Just kidding, but I'm always tempted to leave when the Fr. Basil says that in the Liturgy.

Anyway, I don't get out much in the world nowadays, and now instead of watching the news as I was wont, I enjoy reading Orthodox books. I just ordered the Spiritual Psalter that someone up there recommended. So our household is very quiet in spite of having 6 homeschooled kids, who don't get out that much either.

And since finding Orthodoxy through a poster on another Christian forum, who has continued to tutor my family by email, I am finding "friends" on line. It seems the internet has supplemented reclusive, shy people's need for social contact.

I hope it's not only because we're too shy to risk face to face contact. But maybe it's also because with the above mentioned sociatal trends, it's harder to find like-minded people with whom you can be vulnerable and subsequently built up. Most of you probably don't live near me. In fact we live kind of far from the people in our parish, which is the closest Orthodox church to us. So I feel it's an imposition to invite people over when they have to drive for 45 minutes to get to my house.

I guess the problem is with me because, I'm even uncomfortable staying and talking to people during coffee hour after the service.

But talking on the internet is better than nothing, isn't it?

[Lillian Grunzweig]

Andrea, I totally understand what you are saying. I work at home as a web developer so many of my relationships have started in such a way. The Internet is better than nothing however it can never take the place of true in person relationships. That would be like saying TV can take the place of a collage education. The two are vastly different and while both are potentially beneficial they have different uses.

The internet will never give you the fullness you could have in real relationships.

If someone invited me to thier house after church, I would drive 45 minutes and I suspect others would as well.

[Andrea]

Thanks Lillian,

Something else that's held me back is that since we aren't yet received members of the Orthodox Church, would Orthodox people want to come to a not yet Orthodox house? Though we are working on our home alter.

[Trudy Ellmore]

Golly day Andrea, I sure hope that Orthodox people would come to visit my home even though I'm not chrismated yet! As a matter of fact, I've had a friend to dinner who is Orthodox, didn't make a fasting meal, and he ate his fill without comment nor offense.

All teasing aside, I have found Orthodox people to be some of the most kind, welcoming, and gentle people I've yet to meet. They've been very open to my attending Liturgy and learning and are patient with my questions.

Home altar? I don't have one of those. I have three icons and a blessed palm cross hanging up. Am I missing something here? Could someone expound on this?

In Christ, Trudy

[Lillian Grunzweig]

OF COURSE! I can not imagine anyone turning you down because you are not yet Orthodox, esspecialy when you are seeking them out.

Home Alter... yes. We call them icon corners as well. It is a place facing east where you hang icons, burn incense, place a vessel of holy water... etc. We say morning and evening prayers in front of it. They tend to vary a little from one house to the next but most of them will have at the vary least an icon of Christ Pantocrator and one of the Theotokos (similar to ones you might see on the iconostas in church). My icon corner also becomes the place to house any blessed flowers or anything that comes home from church with me since it's important to treat blessed objects a certian way.

[Andrea]

Thanks Trudy and Lillian for the encouragement to step out of my comfort zone. Lord have mercy on me a sinner.
I would appreciate anyone's prayers to overcome my fear of people's judgement. Someone up there also said that it can be a pride thing.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Andrea,

It is just fine to be seperate from the world to the degree this is proper for us. After all as Christ said, "you are in the world but not of it." Nowadays the situation you describe is very common since society has drifted away from Orthodox or even Christian values in general. So it is difficult to find 'kindred spirits' at times.

But we must always be firmly convinced that this situation is also completely in God's hands & that our isolation is only on the surface. As we grow in faith within Christ's holy Church we indeed become more acutely aware of the brokeness of the world and what (or rather Who) it really needs. And so from alienation or even a kind of cynicism we move to a deepening of compassion for all others. As St Isaac the Syrian would have said, (lose version of this!) as we grow in Christ we shed tears for all of creation.

May Christ continue to be the Light of your life & your family.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Andrea]

Dear Fr. Raphael,

Actually that's what I wanted to hear. I've been burned by past relationships, divorce included, and feel a bit crippled in reaching out to people. I love that you said that this (mine and the world's) situation is completely in God's hands. I feel that I do need to be first healed by His grace and mercy, and then be given a deeper compassion for others. I'm at the stage of shedding more tears for myself than for others right now. This seems selfish.

I'm also still trying to grasp what communion with the Church is all about. The Orthodox inclusion of the heavenly hosts and Saints is a bit overwhelming. But like you say, our isolation is only on the surface, we are more deeply connected to Christ and His Body than I can grasp.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom,
Andrea

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Andrea,

A warm welcome, you are among a wonderful group of people.

We haven't heard from Professor McBride for a while, if someone has his email address could they email it to me. I very much enjoyed his commentary.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[Olga]

Re Orthodox people being reluctant to visit the home of a not-yet Orthodox, may I make the comment that people who would refuse such hospitality or show reluctance would be narrow and sad people indeed. I and my husband are Orthodox, one of my sisters-in-law is Roman Catholic, and I number among my friends people from most colours and creeds who are ALL welcome at my house. Personal faith is extremely important, but it should not get in the way of creating and maintaining friendships. Those who only choose to associate with people of their own faith/denomination end up insular and narrow-minded, in my experience.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Andrea and other new 'faces' I may not yet have greeted,

Welcome to the community. It is good to have you here, and I personally look forward to your participation in our little conversations in future.

INXC, Matthew

[Daniel Jeandet]

I remember reading something by Saint Nikolai in one of his poems about our friends being our enemies because they can makes us comfortable or lead us into trouble or otherwise distract us from our Master and our purpose, and our enemies being our friends, as they compell us to seek refuge with our Lord and force us to face the commandment of loving enemies and blessing those who curse us. This has certainly been true in my little life. Thank God for our friends and our enemies, both teaching love.