Alcoholism and the Eucharist

[Joseph]

I'm an Orthodox Christian and a recovering alcoholic who is currently in therapy. I was told by the counselor who leads our group that I should not take the Eucharist because of the wine, even though the amount is small, since any amount is a problem for an alcoholic. Frankly, I was shocked to hear this and would like to hear from others as to their opinion. I have mine, but will refrain until I hear from you.

[Janice Chadwick]

You need to talk to your priest about this, and I would do what he tells you to do.

[matt]

Joseph,

I have thought about that before when someone I know, who is a recovering alcoholic, had a similar issue as a Lutheran. She continues to go to communion and it is not a problem. I think some might say, if they have a RC persuasion to the Euhcarist, that the wine is the body of Christ and so it isn't really wine. That isn't too refelctive of the Orthodox position of the "element", if I have a correct understanding.

That said, it being wine by whcih Christ gives us his blood I would wonder about two things- 1, if it is Christ's blood for the remission of sins would he allow it to be the occasion for someone to relapse? and 2, Is the few drops enough to cause a relapse if point one were not true?

I have spoken to clergy in protestant, rc and orthodox parishes and they have not had a problem with their own respective recovering alcoholic parishoners. THat doesn't mean that it couldn't be an issue, adn certainly it is a real concern for someone in your position. I have no real answer for you, but those are a few observations from my own discussions. My personal opinion is that CHrist would not allow it to cause a relapse. ALso, if for some strong reason you just couldn't do it, I would wonder if the priest would give you teh bread alone, although I have no clue if this is at all allowed or if there is any historical precedent for such a practice.

matt

[Fr John Wehling]

Joseph,

Please talk with your priest about this.

A blessed Holy Week,
Fr John Wehling

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Joseph,

Yes I certainly would question such advice & also speak with your priest. The Eucharist combined with Confession & a deep Church life are precisely what we need to cure ourselves- refraining from the Sacrament will not help, but hurt. The Eucharist is not just wine but rather the sacramental Blood of Christ. Of course the wine we receive after Communion(zapivka- sorry I forget the word in English) is actual wine and you would want to condsider perhaps watering this down heavily before drinking it.

In Christ- May He accompany us all towards His Glorious Resurrection

Fr R

[Curt Campbell]

Joseph;

My wife is also a recovering alcoholic, and, prior to our reception into the church shared the same concern. However, as our priest explained to us, and as we truly believe, the wine in the cup has/will become through God's grace the very blood of Christ, and is for our salvation, not our detriment. Do not fear to take the cup because of fear of the ingredients contained therein, but rather, read the communion prayers of St. Ephraim, and fear our own unworthiness. Your counselor does not sound like an Orthodox Christian, and would not understand this, so don't heed his warning.

[Melissa]

Dear Joseph,
I'm a therpaist, and Orthodox. People I've worked with have different experiences based on their biology, where they are in their recovery, and where they are spiritually. Technically speaking a few drops of alcohol can be enough to cause a relapse in some people. My priest has cautioned us not to be naive about these things, but to talk openly with him, so I imagine your priest will want to help you with the theological understandings, and also perhaps help you determine if for a period of time refraining from even a drop of alcohol is necessary. Hopefully your therapist will also agree to help you more, as you explain your religious concerns. Just as others advised you to talk to your priest (which I would suggest, also), please talk to your therapist. If he/she won't help you with this, that could be an important issue, because ultimately, it's a spiritual problem, and needs to be addressed spiritually as well as psychologically.
In Christ,
Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear joseph,

I fully understand your dilemna. You have been well-advised; it is always better to ask your priest, although I would think that his advice would be the same as those on this forum. Allow me to share with all of you an experience I had concerning someione afflicted with alcoholism. In 1996 whiule on a three month assignment to Honolulu, it was advertised in the newspaper that I would be serving there. One Saturday evening after Vespers, a spare and meek-looking girl shyly came up and asked if I could hear her confession, to which I readily agreed after ascertaining her Orthodox background. She was a member of one of the Native tribes in Alaska, and could trace her ancestors back to the time of St. Herman of Alaska. When I asked her how she ended up on ther Islands, she told me of a hard life at home, despair, alcohol and abuse in the family, running away at sixteen, drifting in and out of bad situations, and finally falling into drugs and alcohol. When she heard that I was there, she came to reconcile herself with the Church after many years of sorrows. She told me that finding the Church was a final joy for her, for she had been clean and sober for eight months, had gotten a decent job and had been enrolled in classes which she hoped would finally give her a chance in life.

Sunday morning she arrived early, and looked very happy. She looked so at peace throughout liturgy, and smiled broadly when after the Gospel and the sermon, I mentioned to the assembled faithful that after many years away, she had come home to the Church.

All went well until it was time for the Communioin of the faithful. As the girl approached the chalice, her look of joy turned into profound fear when she looked at the small amount of Christ's Blood in the spoon. I could see the terrible struggle going on in the heart of the poor girl, and understood when she whispered through big trears, "God forgive me, Father, thank you, and forgive me.{ She then turned and ran out of the Church. leaving behind a bewildered congregation after Liturgy, I sorrowfully related as much as I safely could as to what had happened. To this day, this incident is a cause of such grief for me, and I pray for that poor girl, begging our Saviour and His Mother to watch over yet another Little One, crushed by the cruel events of this world. She was so much like a small frightened bird, shivering in fear.

When I returned home, I gave my report of my stay in Honolulu to the Archbishop, and sadly related the incident with the young girl. Vladika, always so wise, said in such situations. it can be arranged for a person struggling with alcoholism to make arrangements with his priest to recieve the Divine Mysteries "dry." And, as usual, his solution was concerned and pastoral. Every year on HolyThursday, large pieces taken from the Lamb used at prior Liturgies is cut into small squares, and are dried out by placing them in a special small "frying pan," unto;*they are visibly very dry and then placed into the small box in the tabernacle on the altar to be used to take communion for the sick. When the person comes up for communion, he can come laast, and the priest can go into the altar put all of the remaining particles into the chalice and coming back out bearing small particle which had been prepared especially for the person. In this way, and hint of temptation, and the person still is able, without fear or question, to receive the Precious Body-and Blood of our Saviour Jesus. Although it was too late for the girl, it was a valuable lesson for me, and Joseph, I hope this will be helpful for you. have a Bright and Blessed Pascha of the Lord!

With love in the Risen Christ,

hieromonk Averky

[matt]

Father A.

Thank you so much for that response. That is very helpful!

Matt

[Joseph]

I'm so very encouraged by your loving and helpful responses. I will definitely talk to my priest about this. I'm also of the opinion that our Lord will help me partake of His body and blood with relapsing, but, as already stated, I will seek the counsel of my priest. I will also speak with the therapist, as suggested, because I know he has a heartfelt concern for others who are in my situation and a dialogue with him could help others in the future. May each of you have a most blessed Pascha.

Under the Same Merciful Wing,
Joseph

[Melissa]

Dear Father Averky, bless -

Sam and I are praying your surgery went well and was successful -

And, what a lovely though sorrowful story you related about the young woman and the Eucharist. I'm so happy to know there is a way to address this issue. I now have a little treasure of knowledge that will be helpful when I refer people in recovery back to their priests for consultation and spiritual guidance.

I'm filled with gratitude to God for your sharing of that experience with us.

In Christ,
Melissa

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear All,

Forgive me for this but isn't what is in the Chalice the Blood of Christ? How then could it be the cause of a fall unless the person themselves came somehow in 'presumption'? I can hear the groans. Probably I am naive- But I have had spiritual children with this affliction, have been in a number of parishes 'coast to coast' as we say in Canada. I am no expert on alcoholism and am not against AA. But actually to be honest yesterday was the first time I had heard that such a thing as a relapse could happen BECAUSE of the Chalice. It must be us eskimoes with frozen brains up here! Somebody enlighten me please so that I as a priest am not causing one temptation in hopes of avoiding another.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[John P. Nasou]

My respected Father Averky--I realized in reading the messages = concerning the plight of alcoholics and Holy Communion that this is a = very real problem. In my 50 years of medical practice I discovered = repeatedly the failure of many alcoholic's rehabilitation being = destroyed by even one drop of alcohol in mouthwash. When I saw your name = on this message, I knew that you would present a good solution to this = problem, for although the elements of our communion are miraculously = changed in nature, they are unchaged physically. It is true that most = alcoholics who have been withdrawn from this evil are able to receive = without any trouble of relapse because of their belief. But those who = have fear of relapse may suffer from the "unbelief" which Jesus Christ = speaks of in our Scriptures, something which lingers in the back of the = mind and which may also impair the healing action of Holy Unction and = Confession.=20

[Melissa]

Dear Father Raphael, bless,

As John P Nasou said, the unbelief can linger. And the chemical shift in the body takes awhile to occur. That's part of why I believe the addicted person or the person in (especially) early recovery, or at a time of stress or renewed temptation, needs to talk things over with her/his advisors - priest, therapist, those who run groups, AA sponsors, etc. Especially the priest and therapist (since not all priests have been trained re: addiction), because then a more accurate discernment of the potential for temptation can be made, since it will be different for everyone and has a lot to do with where they are spiritually.

For most people there is probably little need to be concerned about this, but for the few, it can be quite serious. I simply don't know enough theologically to make any other connections, but would like to hear more from others.

Please forgive any misunderstanding I may have shown, and correct me as needed. I appreciate this entire discussion, because I don't want to lead people astray. Or sin myself in how I talk with them. I pray always never to lead anyone into sin.

In Christ,
Melissa

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear All,

How meaningful that this topic of the meaning the Eucharist, specifically what is in the Chalice, the Blood of our Lord, should come up on this awesome day!

In the Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs we read the following: "We believe that in this sacred rite our Lord Jesus Christ is present not symbolically (typikos), not figuratively (eikonikos), ...but truly & actually, so that after the sanctification of the bread and wine, the bread is changed, transubstantiated, converted, transformed, into the actual true Body of the Lord...and the wine is changed and transubstantiated into the actual true Blood of the Lord, which at the time of His suffering on the Cross was shed for the life of the world. Yet again, we believe that after the sanctification of the bread & wine there remains no longer the bread & wine themselves, but the very Body & Blood of the Lord, under the appearance and form of bread & wine." (Orthodox Dogmatic Theology- Fr M. Pomazansky, p.280)

Of course we must deal as compassionately & wisely as possible with every person who approaches the Mystery of the Eucharist. But the foundation of our Faith, of the person's very healing is the awesome sacredness of that very Sacrament. If a person is troubled by some aspect of the Sacrament why not try to explain, prayerfully how this could not harm them. From some of the posts it seems there could be some sort of mental temptation regarding the Eucharist which I had not considered before- but again- it seems best to deal with this in simplicity & faith, unto the person's healing.

The points about the Blood of our Lord remaining still wine after the Consecration is seriously mistaken as we can see from the Encyclical quoted and the Holy Frs; theologically it also puts us on quite dangerous ground. Just as as with Holy Baptism when we bless the water first, we would not then say; 'it's just water'. How this is so is a mystery beyond our comprehension.

I believe we need to be more simple about this issue and see with the eyes of faith & love. Go in front of the Cross of our Lord today and you will see where this post is coming from. Whatever compensation we make for those who need healing it serves no purpose to question in the slightest way the healing power of the Sacrifice of our Lord for us on the Cross. Do we want to present to someone ailing and afflicted that this Sacrifice in fact was limited?

Please forgive me- I truly wish to offend no-one-it is just we must be extremely careful about dealing with such an awesome issue as denying someone the Blood of our Lord 'for their healing'. I sense that contemporary theories have come onto the Holy Altar- my feeling is: keep the compassion, question the theories over & over & over again.

In the love of our Crucified & Risen Lord- Fr Raphael

[Owen Jones]

Alcohol does not "cause" alcoholism. Something inside the person causes alcoholism. If alcohol caused alcoholism, then everyone who drank would become an alcoholic. The alcoholic has a combination of an extreme physical sensitivity to alcohol, combined with a personality disorder that results in a mental compulsion that is denied by all of the rational evidence. Under the right conditions, and with willingness, the alcoholic mind can be tamed, and the alcoholic can be around alcohol and not have a mental compulsion to drink. Having lost the alcoholic mind, a small taste of alcohol on the tongue, or the whiff of alcoholic drinks at a party, is not going to "cause" him to relapse. But unitl that alcoholic mind has been tamed, anything can become an excuse to guzzle. Even the eucharist. So if a person newly sober has a fear of receiving the eucharist, that might be a healthy fear, and should not be quickly dismissed.

But I don't care what your eucharistic theology is, an alcoholic has no business guzzling a chalice full of wine, sanctified or no. The underlying chemical properties remain the same. Christ does not cease to be a man because He is God. NOr does wine cease being wine when it becomes Christ's blood. I believe Christ can sanctify an alcoholic's life in the Orthodox Church, even if for a while he wishes to refrain from the Eucharist. And since the alcoholic needs time to undergo a complete moral revolution in his life (which is the pre-condition for receiving the Eucharist anyway) some period of abstinance from the Eucharist would seem to be theologically in order.

I know of no Orthodox Eucharistic dogma that says that the Eucharist heals apart from a moral revolution in the person. Wihtout that, we know that the Eucharist can cause death.

That's why converts of any sort should not be permitted to receive the Eucharist until undergoing extended moral training.

[John Curtis Dunn]

09 April, 2004 Owen Jones wrote: "Christ does not cease to be a man because He is God."

Who has ever taught the above?

john dunn

[Owen Jones]

I continue to be surprised at some Orthodox use of the term "transubstantiation" regarding eucharistic doctrine, since this is a late medieval Roman Catholic doctrine, which does not seem to square with Patristic teachings on the Eucharist. Now, I am certainly not well read in this subject, but my impression is that Orthodoxy has tried to resist overdefining the Eucharist in maintaining its status as a Holy Mystery. In fact, one can point to various treatises and sermons on the Eucharist in our own tradition that, if taken discreetly, and out of context, can be taken to mean that it is nothing more than a memorial. But in Orthodoxy we try to avoid discreet definitions regarding something that is ultimately beyond our comprehension. My understanding, for example, is that we purposefully do not identify a discreet moment in the Eucharist, as does late Medieval Roman theology, at which point we can say with "validity" that it is now the body and blood. In fact, the whole notion of validity is foreign to the Orthodox understanding of this most Holy of Mysteries. One thing that struck me when I became Orthodox is that there is no such thing as a "priest's mass." So there can be no eucharist without a member of the faithful present. So if we were to act as pitifully as those who wish to over-define everything, we would say that the bread and wine become flesh and blood the moment the first member of the faithful enters the basilica!

The debates over the Eucharist in the Patristic period mirrored the Christological debates. Some Gnostics proclaimed that Christ did not have a real human body. He only had the appearance of same. And in refutation, Irenaeus and others defended the real body of Christ as well as the bodily resurrection of Christ. It does not appear that the Orthodox Fathers had a problem with maintaining the same paradox with respect to the Eucharist. Since Christ could be both fully God and fully man, and because Grace does not destroy or replace nature (humanity) but redeems and sanctifies and elevates nature, then the same can and should be true of the Eucharist. The natural elements are not destroyed but faith holds in balance the paradoxical nature of the mystery of the Incarnation in the Eucharist.

Regarding the term "symbol" our Tradition holds the term in high regard as, in a sense, a higher reality than the thing itself. A symbol does not reduce the reality of a physical thing. Rather, it enhances that reality. So by referring to the Eucharist as a symbol, one does not, in the true spirit of Orthodoxy, reduce its reality. That would be a gnostic interpretation of the meaning of a symbol. These debates surely carried on through the iconoclastic controversy, in which many people had a difficult time grasping the paradox of a symbol, and went to extremes either way -- to either reify the symbol (by grinding up icons and eating them as medical elixers) or dispense with it all together as unreal (by smashing them).

It strikes me as odd that one would get bogged down in a Protestant vs. late Roman Catholic medieval debate on this issue, i.e. that the Eucharist must either be exclusively the body and blood of Christ, with the natural elements destroyed, or it is a "mere symbol." A plague on both houses. We do not have to have an obsolute, literal definition of something in order to believe in it. In point of fact, it would seem to make belief and faith a rather extraneous issue.

In my own experience, when I receive the Eucharist, I have always tasted bread and wine, not blood and flesh. But I have no problem believing that it is also the body and blood of Christ, and not just a kind of quaint or superstitious way of thinking about it. I simply do not trouble myself with trying to reconcile the two, such that one has to negate the other.

[Owen Jones]

I cannot vouch for the source of this partial article, but it would seem to suggest that one need not believe that the bread and wine cease entirely to be the bread and wine after their consecration, in order to be truly and fully Orthodox.

Some of the Fathers taught that the elements are symbols of the body and blood of Christ and that his presence is spiritual, while others maintained that the elements are changed into Christ’s body and blood and that his presence is physical.1 The following examples from the writings of the Fathers of the first four centuries reveal this diversity of opinion.

The Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, as it is sometimes called, is included in the collection of works known as the Apostolic Fathers, and is one of the oldest documents from the immediate post-apostolic age that we possess. It is an early manual of Church discipline dated from between the late first century and 140 A.D., and it simply refers to the Lord’s Supper as spiritual food and drink. There is no indication that the elements are transformed in anyway. Ignatius of Antioch (martyred c. 110 A.D.), on the other hand, speaks of the eucharist as the body and blood of Christ which communicates eternal life. Justin Martyr (100/110-165 A.D.) refers to the eucharistic elements as being more than common bread and wine,2 in that when they are consecrated they become the body and blood of Jesus; yet in his Dialogue with Trypho he wrote that the elements were bread and wine which were inaugurated by Christ as a memorial and remembrance of his body and blood.3 So while he spoke of a change in the elements, it seems that in his conception, the elements still remain, in essence, bread and wine. Like Justin, Irenaeus of Lyons (140-202 A.D.) clearly believed the bread and wine became the body and blood of Jesus at consecration,4 but he also stated that the elements were composed of two realities — one earthly and one heavenly, or spiritual.5 He implied that at consecration, though the elements are no longer common bread and wine, they do not lose the nature of being bread and wine.

Tertullian (155/160-240/250 A.D.) spoke of the bread and wine in the eucharist as symbols or figures which represent the body and blood of Christ. He specifically stated that these were not the literal body and blood of the Lord. When Christ said, ‘This is my body,’ Tertullian maintained that Jesus was speaking figuratively and that he consecrated the wine ‘in memory of his blood’ (Against Marcion 3.19). Some theologians have claimed that the ancient usage of the words ‘figure’ and ‘represent’ suggested that the symbols in some mysterious way became what they symbolized. But Tertullian uses the word ‘represent’ in a number of other places where the word carries a figurative meaning. For example, in Against Marcion 4.40 he says, ‘He represents the bleeding condition of his flesh under the metaphor of garments dyed in red.’ His interpretation of John 6 similarly indicates that when he spoke of the bread and wine as figures and symbols of Christ’s body and blood, that is exactly what he meant.6 He says that Christ spoke in spiritual terms when referring to the eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood and did not mean this literally. He holds that the eating of the flesh of Christ and the drinking of his blood means appropriating him by faith: ‘He likewise called His flesh by the same appellation; because, too, the Word had become flesh, we ought therefore to desire Him in order that we may have life, and to devour Him with the ear, and to ruminate on Him with the understanding, and to digest Him by faith.’7 Clearly he did not teach the concept of transubstantiation.

Clement of Alexandria (150-211/216 A.D.) also called the bread and wine symbols of the body and blood of Christ, and taught that the communicant received not the physical but the spiritual life of Christ.8 Origen (185-253/254 A.D.), likewise, speaks in distinctively spiritual and allegorical terms when referring to the eucharist.

Eusebius of Caesarea (263-340 A.D.) identified the elements with the body and blood of Christ but, like Tertullian, saw the elements as being symbolical or representative of spiritual realities.9 He specifically states that the bread and wine are symbols of the Lord’s body and blood and that Christ’s words in John 6 are to be understood spiritually and figuratively as opposed to a physical and literal sense.

As time passed clearer descriptions of the eucharist as the transformation of the elements into the literal body and blood of Christ emerged in the writings of Fathers such as Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzen, Chrysostom and Ambrose. Gregory of Nyssa, for example, taught that the eucharist was the perpetuation of the incarnation and similarly Cyril of Jerusalem adopted a highly literal approach:

Since then He Himself has declared and said of the Bread, This is My body, who shall dare doubt any longer? And since He has affirmed and said, This is My blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that this is not His blood? He once turned water into wine, in Cana of Galilee, at His own will, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood? . . . Then having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual Hymns, we call upon the merciful God to send forth His Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before Him; that He may make the bread the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ; for whatsoever the Holy Ghost has touched, is sanctified and changed.’10

At the same time, there was a continuing representation by many Fathers of the eucharistic elements as figures or symbols of the Lord’s body and blood, although they also believed the Lord was spiritually present in the sacrament. Pope Gelasius I (492-496A.D.), for example, believed that the bread and wine in substance at consecration did not cease to be bread and wine,11 a view shared by Eusebius, Theodoret, Serapion, Jerome, Athanasius, Ambrosiaster, Macanus of Egypt, and Eustathius of Antioch.12

My own vain musing on the subject: it strikes me that the RC doctrine of Transubstantiation as formulated in 1215 represents a kind of Arianism as it applies to the Eucharist. The Arians of course believed that Christ was born a man and progressed to the point where he was God, having entirely replaced his manhood. That Christ could be both man and God, let alone eternally, was anathema to the Arians. And do we not, as Orthodox, believe that our liturgy is a type for the eternal liturgy in Heaven?

So it seems to me that in order to be consistent with Chalcedon, our Eucharistic doctrine can and should proclaim that that the natural and spiritual elements form a unity without either one being diminished in any way.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Father Raphael,

I would conjecture that no one is casting any doubt on the fact that the wine in the chalice has becoime the Blood of Christ, and therefore should have no immediate effect on the believing who recieve it as such. Rather, I would say, that it is the matter of the Passioin against which one is struggling, no matter what it might be: alcohol, smoking, over-eating, drugs, anything which has reached the point that it controls the life of the one whom it has ensnared.

A simple example; When I was twenty four, I became seriously addicted to Coca-Cola. I always kept three two liter bottles in the fridge, and the first thing I did in the morning, except on Sunday, was to drink at least two twelve ounce tumblers. During my work day, I would drink four to six sikxteen ounce cans, and after work, I had a second job as a waiter at a Russsian restaurant, and had free acess to to the very best, coke from syrup and carbonated water from the bar.. The last thing I did before I retired, after I had said my prayers,was to sit at the table, read the newspaper, and drink one or two more tall glasses of coke with ice.

It came to a head on very hot Saturday when I was downtown shopping. Wanting some refreshment, I went to the counter of a reataurant and ordered a Coke. "Sorry, the waitress said, our machine is broken-no Coke." I went fown the street to another small cafe which was busy, and tried to get someone';s atention. When a girl finally came over. I all but shouted, " a large Coke, right away!" Looking at me as if I was totally crazed, she said, "Honey, as you can see, we are packed-it will be at least twenty minutes until I can get back to you." And so on. Two machines took my money, but no Coke. Hot, sweating, shaking, and feeling as if I were in a near state of of mental break down, I collapsed onto a park bench and sat for quite some time until I had calmed down, said to myself, "Jiust look at you-you are like some drugie, literally going crazy over a Coke! This is too much! I went to confession, and my priest admonished me, telling me how easily we fool ourselves, for we say it is "only" Coke, so it is not so bad. But, as he said, "No matter if it is Coke, or candy or carrots, or shopping, if it has taken control of us, it is a pasion, and it is isolating us from God. So, I repent, and immediately began to overcome my passion. It took many months to get ove the addiction, and I sometimes had to even turn my acd away from a sign advertising Coke, and of course, it is for sale everywhere.
Whe young gitl in Hawaii looked at the Bood of our Saviur in the small and shallow spoon, I casnnot imagine that she was fearful that that tiny drop would effect her bodily, but that even looking at it was a remiknder of all that she had had to go through in order to havd been straight and sober for eight months. A friend of mine who sgruggled fof years with drug addition said to e once, "You know Father, once you have tasted a fifbidden fruit, you never forget it and evdry once in awhile, you can taste it so strongly, that it is all that you can do not tol run. Another time he sad, after having become Orthodox, I have every sympathy and absolute understanding of St. Mary of Egypt when she told St. Zosima, "At times, the desire to flee the desert and return to my old life would become so strong, that I would hurl myself headlong into the dcust of the dust of the desert, and llie there for nine or ten days, knowing that if I got up, I surely would be lost.

Of course, Father Raphael the wine in the chalice does become theBlood of Christ, and unless is is clairvoyant, oris the trusted Spiritual Father of all of his communicants, he as no idea what deep and secret passions again which they struggle.Yet, one would hope that as they approach the Cup, they do so with with the firm belief that they can be healed. I believe it is always better to act on the side of caution, rather than to expect that someone , as in this case, not be fearful, but to receive the Blood, when I know that I can ease their fear, and my moral responsibility, by giving to them a particle of the Lamb. To me, the solution of such a problem must be looked at and approached in a merciful and pastoral manner. As humble caretakers of Christ's flock, the priest has a special obligation to each individual soul in his parish, each with his or her with its particular gifts , passions and failings, which always must be seen to in the kindest manner, so that Christ's Rational Sheep, hearing the voice of their loving caretaker,shall always willingly go to him, with the knowledge that they shall receive support and consolation from him to the best of his ability. If parish understands that its priest really loves them and is truly devoted to them, they in turn will become devoted to him; then you could not ask for a more blessed place wherein a group of Christians struggle together as a family for salvation..

I wish, I wish I could say that my addiction to Coca -Cola was the only passion I have struggled with in my life, but I can say that if we hold on, putting all of our faith and trust in God, and bear it all with patience, in time, all will go away,all will be healed. And, when it is gone, there is no peace that one could ieven magine...

Have a Glorious Pascha, Father Raphael!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Owen & Melissa,

Both of your posts I feel deserve being taken seriously and that is what I shall now try to do.

Please forgive any foolishness on my part. Perhaps after Pascha if good fruit comes of this I will reply more fully.

In the love of Christ-Fr Raphael
Have a Glorious Pascha

[Fr Averky]

Dear Owen,

I pray that you will have overcome your latest serious temptation by Pascha. You now that I care for you, but as I have mentioned to you privately, that when we make certain statements, we could possibly damage the soul of another, or cause them to begin to have doubts about their Orthodox Faih, and at the very least, disturb and scandalize others.

Owen, you absolutely know, as do all Orthodox Christians, that the very last words of the priest said to Faithful before they come up for Commujnion are: "Let not the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be unto me for condemnation, but for the HEALING OF SOUL AND BODY." The Orthodox Church would never make an arbitrary statement at such a profoundly Mystical moment of the Divine Liturgy, fthe giving out of the Precious Body and Blood of our Saviour. She would never proclaim in public, at such at such an important time.something which She did not belierve, hold to and which She had taught from the earliest days of Her earthly existence after the Ascension of our Lord and Pentecost..

Throughout the centuries there have been accounts of people being healed after reception of the Divine Mysteries, of course, to this very day, when an Orthodox Christian is sick in the hospital, either he or his relatives ask the priest to come to his bedside, hearing his confession and gving him the Divine Mysteries. Using "logic," it only follows that their could not be a more powereful medicine than receiving the Mysteries. In one of his musings, St. John of Kronstadt, says eactly that: that "Once while "Wondering how it is that simple bread and wine could become the Most Precious Body of Christ, and that wine could become the Precious Blood of Christ, I considered: is it not true that when I eat bread and drink wine every day at my meals, that they indeed become a part of me, flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood?
He is no less God, and He loveds us no less, nor do
Owen, why is it so hard for you to believe that our Saviour, who walked this earth, raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, curing withered limbs, and healed those who had been infirm for decades, why then would He not cure us our desperate times? Why would He stop? If we call ourselves Christians, we must believe that He did these things, and still does. He is not an historicl figure, He is the Saviiour of Mankind. We do have Eucharistic theology- why then, do we say, I believe, and I confess..."

And again, absolutely you know, Owen that no priest, no deacon would ever give anothert person a full chalice of wine to drink- neither consedrated or not!" Why cause a temptation for yourself and others by making sugh etreme statements that you know not to be true? Firthermore, Owen, I have never read or heard from any Orthodox bishop, priest teacher that Jesus Christ's aim was to heal people "morally." As a matter of fact, if we look at His public service to His Heavenly Father, we could almost say from the stand point of the World, He failed in His desire to accomplish that "Salvation would be of the Jews," and He had to turn His salvific attention to the Gentiles, beginning with the Samaritan Woman, St. Photini., because, in the end He could not soften the hearts of His enemies, and they plotted to bring about His death until they succeeded. Yet, we firmly know that tuening to our Lord, putting our faith and trust in Him, and confessing and receiving the Divine Mysteries will, over time, transform us, morally, physically, and spiritually. Their is no more complete or effective Medicine, Owen.

And Owen, it is not possible to demand that all converts be morally prepared before they could be admitted to the Divine Mysteries, for no one, not converts, nor those born into the Church, or even you, Owen, could receive. This idea was not even held by the Albigensians, and is way, way beyond Jansenism! Such a notion is completely outside any of the prameters of the Orthodox Church, and I further state that anyone publicly declaring such a strange notion, would bed questioned seriously as to his Orthodoxy., and I would say, so are all the ideas you have presented on your post, because they are entirely out of keeping with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. I think I can speak for the majority of yout loving fellow members, that you need to have a very long talk with a priest about many of your ideas! This is the second time within a few weeks that you have basically attacked the Church its teachings, and its clergy.: I cannot understand such deep anger and open hostility, almosy hatred, and and it simply is not healthy, for you or thers! Owen, I beg of you for you soul's sake, pleae do something about this! As, always, care for youand worry about you, and daily I pray most fervently for you and your salvation!

I sincerely hope that you can have a joyful Pascha, I know I could not, if I had such ideas as yours.-I cannot even imagine where they came from. .God bless and cover you, Dear Owen. I, we will all be praying for you and yours. I am hoping and hoping, that even though it is so close to the Feast of Feasts, Matthew will let this through, so that you can see that we love you in Christ and are concerned for your salvation.

Always your well-wisher

hieromonk Averky

[Owen Jones]

Dear Father,

With all due respect, on this Holy Saturday, it would be more remiss of me not to correct you, as it would be to stay humbly silent, and therefore I am fully willing to risk your condemnation for my lack of humility, if it will but save the life of one alcoholic from your ignorance. I have seen more clergy kill alcoholics, because of their ignorant theological and medical viewpoints than I care to mention. (I even know one Greek priest who insists that a Greek Orthodox person CANNOT POSSIBLY become alcoholic because of the eucharist, even though I know more than one in my own parish who is alcoholic).

The healthy fear of a recovering alcoholic of receiving communion, at least early in sobriety, ought to be respected by a priest. No matter what your eucharistic theology, to most any man or woman I have ever heard of, the body and blood still tastes of bread and wine, and can possibly trigger in the alcholic mind a relapse. It seems that the first order of business for any priest, as for any physician, is to do no harm. The idea that what the alcoholic suffers from is simply or exclusively unbelief is a gross misunderstanding of the malady. When you put the burden strictly on the alcoholic and judge him by saying that his problem is strictly one of unbelief, is to condemn him to death.

[Owen Jones]

Dear J.D.,

Arians believe that Jesus progressed from humanity to divinity. Docetists believed he had no physical body. Gnostics and heretics in general had trouble reconciling his humanity and divinity. Christ Himself says that he came, not to destroy nature but to save it. That was a key issue in the Christological controversies. How could something become something other than what it is without being destroyed? But I'm sure you are far more up on these controversies than I am.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear Joseph,

I wouldn’t listen to the false counselor who leads your group and says that you should not take the Eucharist because of the wine, even though the amount is small, since any amount is a problem for an alcoholic, because that is not what the Orthodox Church teaches, and are in direct opposition to her teachings. As such these blatantly distorted and wicked notions are the machinations of the evil one.


I would listen your Priest who cares for the flock and the counselor whose name he often invokes and to our Lord and Savour Jesus Christ. And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Dear Owen,

Your Quote:

I have seen more clergy kill alcoholics, because of their ignorant theological and medical viewpoints than I care to mention.

I think that alcoholics tend to kill themselves and often others suffer as well. Sometime physically and often spiritually and those that love them and are closest to them seem to suffer the most.

The grace of the Priesthood, and the mysteries are of the Church and given therein as such I believe it is best to place my trust therein. What an Orthodox Christian believes and articulates even in educated or uneducated ignorance and how receptive we are is a matter of personal choice. Saving lives is one thing saving souls is quite another I'm sure.

[Melissa]

Dear Father Raphael, bless,
I have heard nothing foolish from you, and you have already helped me immensely in continuing to place this topic before us with your thoughts and questions. I know so little about the more subtle theological aspects of Orthodoxy, and I don't want to just 'think' I understand something, so I have continued to ask questions. We each bring important areas of knowledge, and we can't all be well versed in all areas; we must also be refining our awareness as we are granted greater understanding through the faithful exercise of our God-given faculties, which is what you help me to do.
In Christ,
Melissa

[John P. Nasou]

Dear Owen - You are correct. The word "transubstantiation" is not used = in Orthodoxy. The Orthodox word for this process is "METOUSIOSIS" = meaning a change in essence, not one in nature. The Latin Catholic word = means a change in =

[John Curtis Dunn]

10 April, 2004 Owen Jones wrote: "Arians believe that Jesus progressed from humanity to divinity."
-----------

Owen:
I have never heard Arianism explained this way; I have always been instructed that Arianism denied the Divinity of Christ [homoousios] in preference towards homoiousius.

In deference to this thread topic, I will concede to your proclivity and understanding in these matters since the thread topic has its own value.

J D

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Owen & All,

As I said in my last posting I had intended to give this discussion a few days rest. Today's posts however I find deeply shocking. Here I will only comment briefly & wait until after Pascha to express myself more completely.

The statements made about the Body & Blood of our Lord as if there are 'two teachings' is false; further the idea that the Holy Frs themselves disagreed on this is also a misreading of them. The absolute teaching of the Church is that what we receive is truly & literally the Body & Blood of Christ "under the appearance of bread & wine." The nature of the bread & wine is not destroyed but rather as with Christ's flesh which at His Resurrection was not subject to corruption it is no longer 'mere bread & wine.'

To deny this is to deny the basis of our salvation; for it is to say that theosis leaves us fallen humans. It is also a relativism in which falleness and salvation are said to be the same thing. It is deeply anti-ascetic & denies the meaning & significance of the Cross & Resurrection of our Lord.

Secondly the tone of insult directed towards the clergy & fellow Orthodox Christians in these posts is evil and should have no place in our hearts; not now, not at any time. A teaching of Christ & the Holy Frs is that the only person who can speak theologically correctly is the person who is in the midst of purifying themselves; although most of us are far from this yet, at least let us prevent ourselves from using words & intellectual tactics that stem from the demons of pride and meaness.

Be kind & humble Owen.

Your co-struggler in Christ Who is Risen-

Fr Raphael

To all- Christ is Risen! Pray for each other for Christ has conquered the curse of death.

[Owen Jones]

Arius did not deny the divinity of Christ but asserted that there was a time when Christ was not. Therefore, He must have progressed from humanity to divinity in his earthly existence, according to Arius, and my impression, although I am not absolutely sure of this, is that one problem that the Arians had was that they could not conceive of Christ being fully human and fully divine at the same time, so therefore, at least some, if not all of his humanity is left behind as he is divinized. Although I don't know if any particular Orthodox theologians have made this same connection, it strikes me that that kind of misconception led to the Roman doctrine of transubstantiation, which cannot conceive of bread and wine becoming body and blood without the bread and wine becoming nothing but an appearance. But perhaps it is more connected with the Docetic heresy, which expressly contended that Christ had no physical body, only the appearance of a physical body. So I would argue that any doctrine of the eucharist that insists that there is only the appearance of bread and wine after the consecration, is at least on a slippery slope toward the docetic heresy.

Psychologically, it strikes me that transsubstantiation is evidence of a profound lack of faith in the Holy Mystery and the ability of the Holy Spirit to operate on its own terms; and a kind of theological defensiveness which says that there must be no miracle at all, if the bread and wine remain as bread and wine. The process of divinization that our faith teaches regarding, not only the individual member of the faithful, but of all nature, does not require us to believe that natural elements are destroyed in the process. I do not cease to be human as I am divinized. I become more fully human. Hence, bread and wine do not cease to become bread and wine but are sanctified for a spiritual purpose beyond their initial purpose of satisfying our physical appetites. Beyond that, there is not much we can say with certitude about the exact nature of what happens in the eucharistic rite, since that is the nature of a Holy Mystery -- it does not lend itself to facile definitions. If we knew exactly what happens, where is the mystery?

Regarding the correction of priests who might be in error, this is certainly not something to be taken lightly, but is certainly consistent with Orthodox tradition. I would argue that transsubstantiation is not an Orthodox doctrine, and is more a product of Jesuitical influence in Orthodoxy as a result of Pter the Great's "reforms." We do not need a doctrine of transsubstantiation any more than the Fathers needed it, any more than we need a doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Regarding the proximate topic at hand, my feeling is that we do not threaten a very high doctrine of the eucharist by making certain pastoral allowances in special cases, such as alcoholics, newly in "recovery" who might over-react to even the "appearance" of wine. And we do not wish to take the opposite extreme view of becoming Christian Scientists in the process of taking a very high doctrine of the eucharist as the ultimate healing power. I know of no priest who would tell a member of his flock that he should not visit a doctor to treat his heart disease, that the eucharist is sufficient for that. If someone were deathly allergic to the yeast in bread, the priest would likely make an exception for pastoral reasons for that person, and would devise some alternative for that person. So why pick on the alcoholic? Why is it that somehow the alcoholic has to be a victim of bad theological advice, when the overwhelming evidence suggests that he has a fatal allergy to alcohol, combined with a profound personality disorder that does not simply disappear once he believes? One does not want to treat alcoholics as babies, but given the fact that it is largely a hopeless, fatal malady, in which even under the best guidance only about 5% recover long term, perhaps caution is the best recipe. There is no over-estimating the cunning of the twisted alcoholic mind. If he is told it is OK to receive the eucharist while still under the influence of his alcoholic mind, it is no stretch for him to use that to justify "guzzling" a whole chalice full if he could get his hands on it.

[James H.]

Dear Forum:
This is my first post but I have been following for a while (reading back posts and getting to "know" people over the course of a few weeks). I never had anything say until now (so I registered).

I know I'm new here and I do not intend to offend anyone, but as an Orthodox I feel compelled to point out that this thread has ceased to be directly conerned about Joseph's struggle and has moved on to a topic of Theological/ Historical importance. I'm not saying it does not relate, but it has gone beyond the bounds of brotherly advice and has turned into an unloving quarrel.

We all agree, in the end, that Joseph needs to talk to his spiritual advisor and pray about it. Owen, Melissa and Fr. Raphael (and Joseph for that matter) are all correct in that this is not something that should be taken lightly. Some people have insinuated that perhaps other Orthodox are less "Orthodox" or that they are somehow in grave jeopardy because of what they say... We are all Orthodox and from what I can tell, everyone here believes that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. Now, let's move this to the new thread (that I hope got posted) under "Doctrine and Theology" called "The Eucharist: East and West." If anyone has useful ADVICE or insight to give to Joseph, then post it here. In the meantime, I am sure that he has enough ideas to talk to his spiritual father about and pray on HIS advice rather than anyone else's here.

James

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Mr James Haghenschlapfter,

Welcome to the community; I'm glad that you've found your way here, and look forward to your participation in future.

As a slight aside (and perhaps a reminder to all), this community is actually aimed in principle primarily at the theological/historical conversation, rather than personal, pastoral advice. See our Community Outline (http://www.monachos.net/forum/faq.php?faq=mb_tos) for full details. As per the general mindset of Orthodox praxis, such advice is best kept personal, and if it is to be delivered electronically at all, this ought to be by e-mail rather than posting on a public forum. General comments of direction are welcome (as such, the advice to speak to one's priest or spiritual father over the present issue of alcoholism and the Eucharist); but beyond this, personal matters should remain within the confines of holy, personal communications.

However, I heartily agree with James' observation that the tone in the present thread has taken a few negative turns in the past days. Let us all remember our lot and our station, and attempt to keep our passions at bay.

INXC, Matthew

[Joseph]

I was amazed this morning to find so many responses to my inquiry regarding alcoholism and the Eucharist. I agree that some of the responses hardly address my question.

For those who may be intrested, I have spoken with my priest and he said that I should continue taking the Eucharist (I did so this past Saturday and Pascha)since he has never seen an alcoholic relapse due to the Eucharist. I will continue to approach the Chalice trusting that our Lord will use His body and blood to strengthen me. By the way, I've shared your responses with my wife - she literally cried when she read your loving responses.

Under the Same Risen Wing,
Joseph

[John Curtis Dunn]

11 April, 2004 Owen Jones wrote: "Arius did not deny the divinity of Christ but asserted that there was a time when Christ was not. Therefore, He must have progressed from humanity to divinity in his earthly existence..."

Arius did not teach that the Only-begotten Son came into existence at the time of His Incarnation; which your words appear to imply. Neither did Arius teach that Christ evolved from humanity to divinity, as you seem to be suggesting.

The most extensive single source for Arius' teaching is found in the works of St. Athanasius. St Athansius informs us that Arius taught:

God was not always a Father but once God was alone, and not yet a Father, but afterwards He became a Father. The Son was not always for, whereas all things were made out of nothing, and all existing creatures and works were made, so the Word of God Himself was made out of nothing, and once He was not, and He was not before His origination, but He as others had an origin of creation. For God, was alone, and the Word as yet was not, nor the Wisdom. Then, wishing to form us, thereupon He made a certain one, and named Him Word and Wisdom and Son, that He might form us by means of Him."

Arius denied that the Word of God, the Only-begotten Son existed from all eternity with the Father and the Spirit. Arius'error originated out of his own intellectual need to systemize the Trinity in order to make the Trinity comprehensible.

Concerning the Person of Jesus Christ, Arius taught that Christ did not possess a soul, rather his created divinty was in place of His Soul.

The Divinity attributed to the Only-begotten is a created divinity, and can not be said to be any true Divinity at all. To defend Arius'heresy claiming that he believed in the Divinity of the Only-begotten is to fall into his duplicitous and convoluted mental deformity. Arius' heresy cannot simply be placed in his inability to conceptualize Christ being fully human and fully divine at the same time..." At best Arius' doctrine made Christ into a kind of demigod.

The Orthodox Church confesses in no uncertain terms that Arius denied the Divinity of the Christ.
--------
The Greek word metousiosis was first used to express the Eucharist by George Scholarius at the Council of Florence (1438) and who later became Patriarch Gennadius II of Constantinople (1454-1456). During the Council of Florence and while yet a laymen, he wrote a treatise titled, "Homily on the Sacramental Body of our Lord Jesus Christ." In his treatise he uses the word metabole (change) to describe what happens ousia (substance) of the bread and wine into the ousia of the body and blood of Christ. He further identified as sumbebekota (accidents) the unchanged appearance of bread and wine. He explained that the |i{ousia} (substance) of the bread and wine ceases to exist, while the sumbebekota (accidents) of the bread and wine remain visible to the senses. This latter is for the benifit of the faithful, to prevent them from turning away from that which their senses would find abhorent, i.e., eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ.

Later, the heretic calvinist Cyril Lucar, Patriarch of Alexandria following Calvin would deny the teaching of metousiosis (transubstantiation) and assert in its stead the Calvinist doctrine as the Orthodox teaching.

There were several replies Cyril's heretical teaching, among them was "The Orthodox Confession of the Catholic and Apostolic Eastern Church"(1640). Among those who participated in writing this Confession was the Russian Peter Mogila, the Metropolitan of Kieff. This confession was subsequently approved by Orthodox Synods and Councils.
1. The Council of Jassy in 1642
2. The Patriarchs of Constantinople,
Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem in 1643
3. The Council of Jerusalem in 1672

The Confession states:

"Christ is now in heaven only and not on earth after that manner of the flesh wherein He bore it and lived in it when He was on earth; but after the sacramental manner, whereby He is present in the Holy Eucharist, the same Son of God, God and Man, is also on earth by way of TRANSUBSTANTIATION [kata metousiosis]. For the SUBSTANCE of the bread is changed into the SUBSTANCE of His holy body, and the SUBSTANCE of the wine into the SUBSTANCE of His precious blood.

"Where it is fitting to WORSHIP and ADORE the Holy Eucharist even as our Savior Jesus Himself.

"The priest must know that at the moment when he consecrates the gifts the SUBSTANCE itself of the bread and the SUBSTANCE of the wine are changed into the SUBSTANCE of the real body and blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Ghost, whom the priest invokes at that time, consecrating this mystery by praying and saying,

'Send down Thy Holy Ghost on us and on these gifts set before Thee, and make this bread the precious body of Thy Christ and that which is in this cup the precious blood of Thy Christ, changing them by Thy Holy Ghost.'

"For immediately after these words the TRANSUBSTANTIATION [metousiosis] takes place, and that bread is changed into the real body of Christ, and the wine into His real blood. ONLY THE SPECIES WHICH ARE SEEN REMAIN, and this by the ordinance of God, first, that we may not see the body of Christ, but may believe that it is there....

"The honor which it is fitting to give to these awful mysteries is of such a kind as that which is given to Christ Himself....This mystery is also OFFERED AS A SACRIFICE on behalf of all orthodox Christians, both the living AND THOSE WHO SLEEP in hope of a resurrection to eternal life; and the SACRIFICE shall never fail until the last Judgment.

"The fruits of this mystery are these: first, the commemoration of the sinless passion and death of Christ....secondly....this mystery is a PROPITIATION AND ATONEMENT WITH GOD FOR OUR SINS BOTH OF THE LIVING AND OF THE DEAD....thirdly....that each Christian who shall frequent this SACRIFICE and partake of this mystery may be delivered by means of it from the temptation and danger of the devil."

At that Jerusalem Council of 1672 under the Jerusalem Patriarch Dositheus, the following declaration was made:

"...we believe that after the consecration of the bread and the wine the SUBSTANCE of the bread and the wine NO LONGER REMAINS, but there is the body itself and the blood of the Lord in the species and form of the bread and the wine, that is to say, under the ACCIDENTS of the bread. Further, that the all-pure body itself and blood of the Lord are distributed and enter the mouth and stomach of the communicants, both pious and impious, only they convey to the pious and worthy remission of sins and eternal life, but they involve to the impious and unworthy condemnation and eternal punishment.

"Further that the body and the blood of the Lord are severed and divided by the hands and teeth by way of ACCIDENT, that is, in the ACCIDENTS of the bread and the wine, in which they are acknowledged to be visible and tangible, while in themselves they remain altogether unsevered and undivided. Wherefore also the Catholic Church says, 'He is separated and distributed who being separated is not divided, who is ever eaten and never consumed, but sanctifies those who partake' [from the Liturgy of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom], that is, worthily."

"Further, that in every part and the smallest fragment of the changed bread and wine there is not a part of the body and blood of the Lord, for that would be blasphemous and wicked, but the whole Lord Christ wholly in SUBSTANCE, that is, with His soul and Godhead, perfect God and perfect Man. Wherefore, though there may be many celebrations in the world at one and the same hour, there are not many Christs or many bodies of Christ, but one and the same Christ is present really and actually, and His body and His blood are one in all the several churches of the faithful; and this not because the body of the Lord which is in heaven descends on the altars but because the bread which is offered and set forth in all the several churches, being transmade and TRANSUBSTANTIATED, becomes and is after the consecration one and the same as that which is in heaven. For the body of the Lord is one in many places, and not many bodies....

"Further, that the body itself and the blood of the Lord which are in the mystery of the Eucharist ought to be honored in the highest way, and WORSHIPPED WITH DIVINE ADORATION. For the WORSHIP of the Holy Trinity and of the body and blood of the Lord is ONE. Further, that it is a REAL AND PROPITIATORY SACRIFICE offered for all the orthodox living and dead, and for the benefit of all....Further, that before the use immediately after the consecration and after the use that which is kept in the holy pyxes for the reception of those who are about to depart is the real body of the Lord, and not in any respect different from it; so that before the use after the consecration, in the use, and after the use, it is altogether the real body of the Lord.

"Further, that by the word TRANSUBSTANTIATION the manner in which the bread and the wine are transmade into the body and blood of the Lord is not explained; for this is altogether incomprehensible and is impossible except for God Himself; and attempts at explanation bring Christians to folly and error. But the word denotes that the bread and the wine after the consecration are changed into the body and blood of the Lord not figuratively or by way of image or by superabundant grace or by the communication or presence of the Deity alone of the Only Begotten. Neither is any ACCIDENT of the bread and of the wine transmade in any way or by any change into any ACCIDENT of the body and blood of Christ; but REALLY AND ACTUALLY AND SUBSTANTIATIALLY the bread becomes the real body of the Lord itself, and the wine the blood of the Lord itself, as has been said above."

This remains the Orthodox confession concerning these Holy Mysteries. It is not the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Transubstantiation the we Orthodox confess.
----

john dunn

[Owen Jones]

Regarding Arius, my generalization of his thought is consistent with that of Athanasius by the width of a hair, which you have divided in half.

Regarding transsubstantiation, if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Bravo, James, and well said!

Not all of us in this forum are Orthodox, as you will discover when Richard Leigh starts posting again, as I sincerely hope he soon will.

Now, the point of my post is to say, apropos the recovering (or not) alcoholic, that the RC church normally gives communion only in one kind, viz the consecrated bread (an exception being made on some special occasions such as Pascha/Easter) and teaches that full communion is received sub utraque specie, which would largely - not entirely - solve the problem. Giving communion to the faithful in both kinds, as the Church of England normatively does, was but one of the dividing factors at the Reformation. Does Orthodox teaching really differ entirely in this respect? Save for the example given by Father Averky, which would depend upon prior knowledge by the priest of the putative communicant's circumstances, is the bread always dipped with a spoon in the wine at communion so as to give two kinds in one, so to speak? The two churches are evidently very far apart in this practice.

seeker

[Moses Anthony]

Dear All,

I once read (in my studies) concerning the Arianism controversy, that one sure way to attack the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ,was to attack/discredit the virginity of the Theotokos. If Mary wasn't a virgin, then Jesus wasn't born pure...and so forth.

I can detect with my senses some spiritual truths, i.e., I can at least see the effect of the Spirit of God moving upon someone, as they either become remorseful/cry, or defiantly angry. And yet; "eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither has it entered the heart of man all that God has prepared for those who love Him. But to us God has revealed them through the spirit".

Within the Antiochian jurisdiction there's two practices of communing. In the Eastern/Byzantine Rite, the priest sweeps the prospora from the diskos into the wine which has now been mixed with HOT water. The Epiclesis/priestly prayer has been answered by God, and so, when the people commune they receive that which sanctifies, cleanses and heals. Not to mention that which also motivates to godly living. In the Western Rite Vicarate; the practice is to receive the hosts separately, requiring participation of both the priest-administering the body- and deacon-administering the blood. As I recall if a prospective communicant did not wish to receive the hosts, then this is indicated by folding the arms across the chest, whereupon the priest pronounces a blessing over the person. Everyone present, EVERYONEcan receive the antidoran/blessed bread at dismissal from the Divine Liturgy as they come forward to reverence the cross.

The sacrament of confession is readily available for anyone having a problem with alcohol in the wine, that is; if they wish this problem to be known to the priest, so that he may consult what the rubrics(what a council of holy fathers have decided), for the problem is definitely not new. AS far as is known to me, priests are under no oath to "...do no harm", however; all believers are under the command of God to "...bear one anothers burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ".

Christos aneste, Al-Maseeh qam, Christos vos-kre-se, Christos a in-vi-aht, CHRIST IS RISEN!!!

the sinful and unworthy servant

[James H.]

I guess my attempt in moving this discussion elsewhere failed. Oh well, lol. MA, that's always interested me about how the RC usually only offers the element (or rather the "accidents" in roman terminology) of the bread to the faithful. You asked aobut the Orthodox practice and yes, you are correct in assuming that we always offer the bread dipped in the wine so as to partake in both elements at the same time.

I would like to point out, as my girlfriend is Catholic and so I often attend Saturday Evening Mass with her, that, at least here in the US, it is more and more common to offer the wine, and I would say a good half of the parishioners (sp?) partake of it. hile they are not compelled to partake, they generally have been encouraged to do so. So this is changing... and I definitely feel this is a change in the right direction.

James

[Joseph]

Dear Seeker,

I'm the recovering alcoholic who started this thread with what I thought was a simple request for advice.

I'm glad you said that the RC church "normallY" gives communion of one kind, but your exception clause is innacurate. The RC parish my father attends offers the chalice to whomever wants to drink from it each time Mass is celebrated. As an aside, my AA sponsor knows of one recovering Roman Catholic who relapsed because of this very practice. As I see it, the chalice is out for alcoholics.

Joseph

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Well, Joseph, I can only speak from my own experience, and I can tell you that it is not the usual practice in RC parish churches in England to offer the wine to the faithful. But then the Roman church teaches that the substance (not the accidents, surely? These remain bread and wine) is completely received in either element on its own.

seeker

[matt]

I wonder if others could comment on the significance of the epiclesis for eastern orthodox eucharistic theology. Some, like Lossky, would argue the western lack of a calling down of the the Spirit is an extension or unintended consequence of the filioque, which minimized the Spirit's explicit role in western theology (I don't know if that is true or not). It does seem important. Does anyone know more about why each tradtion (east west broadly) developed liturgically to include or exclude the epiclesis? THis seems to be a good place to speak of divergent theologies, perhaps. THanks.

matt

[Douglas Barber]

I am not Orthodox but I am alcoholic, so I beg the indulgence of the moderator and members in permitting me to share my individual experience in this matter. I am 49 years old. When I drank, I was drinking about half a liter of vodka a day. I stopped in September when I was hospitalized for acute pancreatitis, and in God's mercy I have not drank since then. I have participated fully in a Protestant communion rite (which used wine) and in my case this resulted in not the slightest temptation to drink, not even the thought of it.

The situations which *do* tempt me to drink always seem to involve something which seems both important, and, at the time, hopeless - for instance, difficulties with a child who is having a great deal of trouble at school. The remedy to the temptation, for me, always involves regularly, quietly, intently turning to God for reinvigoration of faith, from which then come the hope and love which break down my perception that I am confronted with an "important and hopeless" task, whatever that task might be. Participation in Communion is one especially, infinitely precious way of turning to God and receiving this reinvigoration of faith and hope, whether in the "ordinary" manner, or in the way Father Aversky has suggested for extraordinary cases.

It would not be prudent for me to assume that every other alcoholic will experience this matter just the way that I have, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that many do.

Doug

[Owen Jones]

Regarding Matt's post: there are some bizarre practices by priests today. I served as a Reader in a service presided over by a Greek priest who, going as fast as he was, could not possibly have recited the most important parts of the eucharistic prayer, even if he was reciting it mentally. There could not possibly have been an epiclesis. He was visiting our little mission, but presumably that's how he conducts every service.

[Melissa]

Dear Douglas,
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think most alcoholics in recovery do have the experience you have, and can and do turn to their faith for hope and strength, as you have.
In Christ,
Melissa

[Daniel Jeandet]

I have a problem with amphetamines, which I am sure is no where near as difficult as alchahol, seeing as its outlawed and everything. After a couple of weeks clean, the cravings really die down and its not that difficult to keep under control, barely thinking about it for months on end. But, sometimes I smell something that is similar to the smell or taste of speed (the smell and taste kind of merge when its taken intravenously). I have to be careful around certain laundry chemicals and people who are writing on whiteboards, the chemicals that smell like speed are a very powerful reminder, sometimes even triggering physical reactions as if my body is preparing for a hit before my mind is even entertaining the idea. Even seeing something that is the same orange color as a needle cap can disturb me. At times this reaction has been so sudden and powerful, its made me laugh with shock and surprise. Other times, within an hour I am driving around like mad chasing some gear or scamming money from people to go buy it. Its so unpredictable. If Church incense smelled like meth or something, Im not sure I could go to Church. Of course that is an insane idea, but I think drinking is more of a struggle than speed, so the question is totally understandable. I sympathise deeply with people who have addiction problems, they are really scary sometimes, but can also our salvation. You cant be too careful.

[John Curtis Dunn]

Owen Jones reported: Regarding Matt's post: there are some bizarre practices by priests today. I served as a Reader in a service presided over by a Greek priest who, going as fast as he was, could not possibly have recited the most important parts of the eucharistic prayer, even if he was reciting it mentally. There could not possibly have been an epiclesis. He was visiting our little mission, but presumably that's how he
conducts every service.

This is very sad news, "For those who negligently perform this awesome service, fulfilling it ineptly and carelessly, will suffer much."

May God deliver us from such Priests.

john dunn

[John P. Nasou]

Joseph, you are correct in your observations regarding the practices of Holy Communion in the Latin Catholic churches. Before Vatican II, the wine was received by the priests only, and the laity received only the wafer. One of the changes made by Vatican II was that the laity was also to be offered the wine (optional for them to accept) as well as the wafer, and, in addition it is now proper for those who are not of the Latin Catholic faith to partake of both. Just recently I attended the Catholic funeral of a newborn baby whose mother is a Latin Catholic and whose father is a Greek Orthodox. The members of the father's family all partook of the wafer and wine. These are people who should have been well aware of the Orthodox requirement that its members are not to receive the communion of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths, just as their adherents are not permitted by Orthodoxy to receive our Holy Communion. Some Orthodox feel that since it is permitted by Catholicism's rules that it is perfectly correct for them to do so. There is one other item I wish to make clear: We Orthodox RECEIVE Holy Communion. Other Christians PARTAKE of it. This is most clearly demonstrated by the changes of council Vatican II that the wafer is offered to communicants either, as in the past, directly into his/her mouth, or into their hand whereupon they may administer it to themselves. Also the holy chalice may be held by either a deacon or a layperson so that the communicant may take a sip, then the holder of the chalice wipes the rim with a white cloth.

John Nasou

(Message edited by admin on 16 April, 2004)

[Paul Cowan]

KONTAK 1
A wonderful and marvellous healing has been given to us by your holy icon, O sovereign Lady Theotokos. By its appearance we have been delivered from spiritual and physical ills, and from sorrowful circumstances. So we bring you our thankful praise, O all-merciful Protectress. O sovereign Lady, whom we call "The Inexhaustible Cup": bend down your ear and mercifully hear our lamentation and tears that we bring to you, and give your healing to those who suffer from drunkenness, so that we may cry out to you with faith: "REJOICE, O INEXHAUSTIBLE CUP THAT QUENCHES OUR SPIRITUAL THIRST!"

IKOS 1
Angelic powers and multitudes of saints continually glorify you, the Theotokos, Queen of all, the intercessor for us sinful Christians wallowing in lawlessness and remaining in sins. It is for our consolation and salvation that you in your mercy gave us your miraculous icon, so that looking upon it, as at the one and only star among a multitude of stars on a starlit night, we may prostrate ourselves, shouting from the very depths of our heart:

REJOICE, dwelling-place of the unapproachable God.
REJOICE, our constant wonder.
REJOICE, you make our sorrow wipe away our sins.
REJOICE, you make our grief heal our ills.
REJOICE, through your miraculous icon, you bring us your heavenly mercy.
REJOICE, O joy of our grieving heart.
REJOICE, our wonderful reconciliation with God.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst!

KONTAK 2
On seeing the deep sorrow and grief of people possessed by the destructive vice of drunkenness, and also their true repentance, you have willed, O most holy Lady, to show your mercy to the blessed city of Serpoukhov by the appearance of your miraculous icon "The Inexhaustible Cup", so that all who fall down before it with faith and a contrite heart will receive healing from this grievous illness, and thus may cry to God from the depths of their heart: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 2
Having understood the meaning of the threefold apparition of St Varlaam, and his order to go to the city of Serpoukhov, the man possessed by the illness of alcoholism did so, and there, in a monastery he found your holy icon called "The Inexhaustible Cup". On seeing such mercy bestowed on us sinners, we cry out to you with veneration:

REJOICE, through pious people you show to us sinners the glory of your marvellous work.
REJOICE, sagacious guide, showing us the way of salvation.
REJOICE, O good teacher, by your goodness you attract us to yourself.
REJOICE, by bestowing on us your great blessings you teach us gratefulness.
REJOICE, by making us know hope beyond doubt you give us gladness of heart.
REJOICE, you destroy our destructive passions.
REJOICE, you help us in our good intentions.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 3
The power of the Almighty and the grace of the sovereign Mother of God strengthened a man suffering from alcoholism, when in obedience to an order of the Theotokos, given to him by St. Varlaam, he set out for the city of Serpoukhov, in spite of his paralysed legs. On his arrival, he found the icon of the most pure Theotokos, and was healed from illness of the soul and that of the body. Therefore, from the very depth of his heart, he gratefully exclaimed to God: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 3
You are an inexhaustible fountain, a cup of heavenly gifts that ever remains full. And the people of the city of Serpoukhov, as well as all Orthodox, from every city and village, who come to your most wonderful icon, "The Inexhaustible Cup", are healed. And so with grateful lips they cry out to you:

REJOICE, O vessel of holy water that dissolves our sorrow.
REJOICE, O cup by which we receive the joy of our salvation.
REJOICE, you attend to our spiritual and physical ills.
REJOICE, your prayers tame our passions.
REJOICE, you give to each according to his needs.
REJOICE, you give generously to all.
REJOICE, you have opened for us the treasury of mercy.
REJOICE, you show mercy to the fallen one.
REJOICE, O sovereign lady, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 4
People laden with passions and addictions, doubting of ever finding deliverance, come with repentance to your inexpressible mercy. And on having been healed, from the very depths of their hearts they cry to our Saviour born of you: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 4
On seeing the sorrow and tears of parents, wives and children whose family member is possessed by the passion of addiction, the Lord gave us your icon, O Theotokos, and all who come to it receive consolation and spiritual joy. And so we cry out to you with tears of gratitude:

REJOICE, O lamb, you gave birth to the Lamb of God.
REJOICE, you are the ladle that draws up joy from the source of immortality.
REJOICE, you are the alleviation of the grief of sorrowing mothers.
REJOICE, you are the hope of the hopeless.
REJOICE, you gracefully protect those who come to you.
REJOICE, you are the delight and joy of those in grief.
REJOICE, your helping hand is there for those who seek it.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 5
O most gracious Lady, you have shown us your holy icon to be the star that leads to God, so that looking upon it and praying to you, we may say: O Theotokos, give healing to those who are suffering from drunkenness and any other illness of mind and body, and teach us all to praise God, singing: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 5
O Theotokos, on seeing the marvels and wonders granted to those who humbly venerate you, wonders pouring from your icon that miraculously appeared in Serpoukhov, and also from those that were but copies of it, we cry out to you:

REJOICE, you are a speedy Protectress of all who come to you.
REJOICE, you hear our prayers.
REJOICE, you have blessed the city of Serpoukhov.
REJOICE, you have shown the glory of your miracles in the region of Moscow.
REJOICE, inexhaustible Treasure for all who are in need of healing.
REJOICE, O almighty help to those who strive for sobriety.
REJOICE, O almighty help to those who fight against the world, flesh, Satan and addictions.
REJOICE, you defend those who lead a good life in this world.
REJOICE, O sovereign Lady, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 6
O Theotokos, we proclaim your wonders that pour forth from your icon, "The Inexhaustible Cup", and with tears we pray to you: Save us all from the passion of drunkenness and from other addictions and sins, and teach us, O Pure One, to abstain from all impurity, and to sing to God: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 6
In the light of the Divine Glory, you look at your Son, the eternal God and Lord Jesus Christ, standing in the chalice as shown on your icon mysteriously called "The Inexhaustible Cup"; and you give from it deliverance from drunkenness to us who come unto you and bring to you this unceasing praise:

REJOICE, for the angelic powers and the human race rejoice because of you.
REJOICE, for your glory surpasses both human and heavenly praise.
REJOICE, you have revealed to us the mystery of the Divine Eucharist by showing the image of your Son in the chalice.
REJOICE, you show us the Lamb born of you who is always eaten but never consumed.
REJOICE, O cup of life and immortality that leads us to the gates of eternal life.
REJOICE, you fill our thirsty souls with the water from the fountain of immortality.
REJOICE, you do not withhold your blessing even from the most rejected and despised.
REJOICE, by your compassion you pull us away from the pit of perdition.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 7
A man wanted to thank you, O Theotokos, for healing from alcoholism, so he adorned your miraculous icon that is in Serpoukhov, singing to God from the depths of his heart: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 7
We see a new miracle from your holy icon, O Theotokos. A servant of God, Stephen, a victim of the disease of alcoholism, was imploring your maternal intercession, and he has been granted a cure. So in gratitude he adorned your icon with rich gifts, and falling before it he called to you with tears:

REJOICE, life-giving fountain of healing.
REJOICE, heavenly cup of divine gifts.
REJOICE, river that carries healing.
REJOICE, the sea into which sink all our passions.
REJOICE, with your tender maternal hands you raise up those who fall under the weight of drunkenness.
REJOICE, you do not turn down gifts of gratitude.
REJOICE, joy of pious people.
REJOICE, you grant us those of our petitions that are good for us.
REJOICE, O sovereign Lady, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 8
It must be strange and incredible to unbelievers to hear that your icon "The Inexhaustible Cup" procures miracles. But to us who believe in your words proclaimed about your first icon, "The Grace of the One who is born of me and my own blessings will always be with this icon", this present icon also exudes your mercy. And so, reverently we venerate it, crying to God: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 8
People suffering from alcoholism and addictions do put all their hope in you, O sovereign Lady. Bend down to our ills and our passions. For whom but you, O Theotokos, shall raise us out of the pit of perdition and of physical and spiritual misery? And thus having bent our knees, we cry out to you:

REJOICE, you do not reject the prayers of those who are sinful.
REJOICE, you give your help to those who ask for it.
REJOICE, you show the depth of your compassion for the sinner.
REJOICE, you give courage to those who have lost all hope.
REJOICE, you extend your helping hand to those who suffer from drunkenness.
REJOICE, by your gift of grace you console those who suffer patiently.
REJOICE, you nurse our physical and emotional ills.
REJOICE, you teach us to despise the empty pleasures of this life.
REJOICE, O sovereign Lady, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 9
All the angels are amazed at your mercy, O Lord, for You have given to sinful mankind a strong Protectress and helper. She looks down at our weakness, and heals those suffering from the bitter disease of drunkenness, and teaches the faithful to sing: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 9
The most exalted human mind cannot praise enough the appearance of your glorious icon, O sovereign Lady. Nor can we sinners bring from our sinful lips a glorification worthy of our Protectress. On having seen innumerable miracles coming from your icon, we rejoice in our heart and spirit, and proclaim:

REJOICE, from your holy face miracles pour forth.
REJOICE, you speedily deliver us from grief and sorrow.
REJOICE, you put to shame those who deny you.
REJOICE, you protect from every evil those who come to you.
REJOICE, by your gentle radiance you disperse the darkness of our passions and our sins.
REJOICE, you fill our hearts with love for your Son and for yourself.
REJOICE, you show us the path of repentance.
REJOICE, you are our mediator before the righteous judge.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 10
Wishing to save all those who suffer from the diseases of alcoholism and other addictions, you have given us your wonderful icon, O Theotokos, so that all who suffer may come to your miraculous image; and having been healed, may tenderly cry out to God: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 10
You are the wall and the shield, O Lady Theotokos, for those who suffer from drunkenness, and also for all those who come to you fervently and who piously venerate your holy icon; for the Lord God gave it to us to help us, and to heal us from this destructive addiction. And thus He inspires us to sing to you:

REJOICE, you alleviate our sufferings and give hope to those who despair.
REJOICE, you are the healing of our ills.
REJOICE, with your purity you wipe away our corruption.
REJOICE, by your holiness you illumine our darkness.
REJOICE, by your cloak of compassion you clothe our mortal body.
REJOICE, by your strength you fortify our prayers.
REJOICE, you strengthen us in our weakness.
REJOICE, you disperse the dark clouds of passions that surround us.
REJOICE, o sovereign Lady, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 11
O pure one, do not despise our humble singing that we bring to you from fullness of love and zeal; and do not turn away your face from those who suffer from drunkenness and despair, but do help us, so that we also may be cleansed from every impurity and may rightly and justly sing to God: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 11
O most holy Lady! On your icon you are seen like a burning candle in rays of grace, surrounded by the assembly of saints and holy martyrs. And as you indicate to us the path of righteousness, we call to you and say:

REJOICE, by the intercession of St Domnica you save us from this world of trouble.
REJOICE, by her pleading you help us to overcome passions of the flesh.
REJOICE, by the prayers of the holy martyr Varlaam, you fill our hearts with pious thoughts.
REJOICE, by his pleading you illumine our conscience.
REJOICE, by the prayers of the holy martyr Paraskeva you deliver those who suffer from drunkenness.
REJOICE, by her intercession you call us to repentance and watchfulness.
REJOICE, together with the holy martyr Antipas you mellow the bitter heart.
REJOICE, with him you save those who call on your name.
REJOICE, O sovereign Lady, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 12
The grace that shines through your icon "The Inexhaustible Cup" calls to it all those who suffer, all the unfortunate, widows and orphans, and especially those who are ill with the disease of alcoholism. And no one goes away empty-handed from your inexhaustible cup, O merciful one, but all are filled with divine gifts; so that having received healing and help, they may sing to you: ALLELUIA!

IKOS 12
Praising your wondrous work and great mercy that you show to those who suffer from addictions, we beg you, O compassionate one - save, have mercy on us, show us the right path, and do not reject us who seek your protection and call out to you:

REJOICE, you sustain us on the way to soberness.
REJOICE, by the dew of your mercy you deliver us from the passion of alcohol.
REJOICE, by your mercy you heal us from addictions.
REJOICE, you are a speedy help to those who suffer from all kinds of dependence.
REJOICE, you support those who are even-tempered.
REJOICE, you who humble the prideful.
REJOICE, you exalt the humble and wish salvation to all.
REJOICE, O holy Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst.

KONTAK 13 (Read 3 Times)
O all-merciful Mother of our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, hear our prayer, and deliver us from all ills, physical and emotional, and especially your servant(s) (name(s) )___, who suffer(s) from this disease, so that he (she, they) may not perish, but might be saved and thus would sing to God:
ALLELUIA! ALLELUIA! ALLELUIA!

IKOS 1
Angelic powers and multitudes of saints continually glorify you, the Theotokos, Queen of all, the intercessor for us sinful Christians wallowing in lawlessness and remaining in sins. It is for our consolation and salvation that you in your mercy gave us your miraculous icon, so that looking upon it, as at the one and only star among a multitude of stars on a starlit night, we may prostrate ourselves, exclaiming from the very depths of our heart:

REJOICE, dwelling-place of the unapproachable God.
REJOICE, our constant wonder.
REJOICE, you make our sorrow wipe away our sins.
REJOICE, you make our grief heal our ills.
REJOICE, through your miraculous icon, you bring us your heavenly mercy.
REJOICE, O joy of our grieving heart.
REJOICE, our wonderful reconciliation with God.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst!

KONTAK 1
A wonderful and marvellous healing has been given to us by your holy icon, O sovereign Lady Theotokos. By its apparition we have been delivered from spiritual and physical ills, and from sorrowful circumstances. So we bring you our thankful praise, O all-merciful Protectress. O sovereign Lady, whom we call "The Inexhaustible Cup". Bend down your ear and mercifully hear our lamentation and tears that we bring to you, and give healing to those who suffer from drunkenness, so that we may cry out to you with faith: "REJOICE, O INEXHAUSTIBLE CUP THAT QUENCHES OUR SPIRITUAL THIRST!"


FIRST PRAYER
O our merciful and holy Lady Theotokos, hope and refuge of the orphan, defense of the stranger, help of those in need, and protection of those who are bitter: You see our misfortune, you see our sorrow. From all sides we are assailed by temptations, and there is no one to protect us. You, yourself, help us, for we are weak. Feed us, for we are strangers. Show us the way, for we are lost. Heal us, for we hurt. Save us, for there is no hope for us. We have no other recourse, neither protection nor consolation, but you, O Mother of all who suffer and are burdened. Look down on us sinners, who are harsh and bitter, and protect us by your holy omophorion, that we may be delivered from all evil that assails us, and especially from drunkenness, so that we may always glorify your all-holy name.
R: Amen!

SECOND PRAYER
O all-merciful sovereign Lady, we come to your protection. Do not despise our petitions, but kindly hear us - wives, children, husbands, parents, and all those who suffer from heavy affliction of addictions of all sorts; and restore those who, because of it, fall away from our holy Mother the Church and its salvation. O merciful Theotokos, touch their heart and speedily restore them from their fallen state, and lead them to salutary repentance. Implore your Son, Christ our God, to forgive us our trespasses, and not to turn away His mercies from His people, but that He would strengthen us in sobriety and chastity.

Accept, O all-holy Theotokos, the petitions of mothers shedding tears about their children, wives sobbing for their husbands, children, orphans, beggars, and all those who were forsaken, and us all who venerate your icon. And let your prayers carry our petitions to the throne of the Almighty.

Cover us, and keep us from all snares of the enemy, and the traps of the evil one, and at the dreadful hour of our death, help us to pass the ordeal without stumbling. By your prayers, save us from eternal condemnation, so that God's mercy may cover us for the ages to come.
R: Amen!

TROPAR (Tone 4)
TODAY WE FAITHFUL COME TO THE DIVINE AND MIRACULOUS ICON OF THE MOST HOLY THEOTOKOS, WHO FILLS THE FAITHFUL FROM THE INEXHAUSTIBLE CUP OF HER MERCY, AND SHOWS THEM GREAT MIRACLES. AND WE WHO HAVE SEEN THEM AND HEARD OF THEM REJOICE IN OUR HEART AND CRY OUT WITH DEEP FEELING AND DEVOTION: O ALL-MERCIFUL SOVEREIGN LADY, HEAL OUR ILLS AND OUR PASSIONS BY PRAYING TO YOUR SON, CHRIST OUR GOD, THAT HE MAY SAVE OUR SOULS.
The end of the first translation, by Sister Dorofea.


The revered copy of the icon of the Mother of God "The Inexhaustible Cup" in Saransk; The Appearance of the miracle-working icon of the Mother of God “The Inexhaustible Cup” took place in 1878. One peasant from the district Yefremovskiy of the province Tulskaya, being a retired soldier, suffered from drunkenness. He drank away his entire pension and everything that was in his house. So finally he had grown poor. Hard drinking caused a paralysis to his legs, but he didn’t stop. But suddenly this degraded down man saw a wonderful dreaming. He saw a good-looking great ascetic who said: “Go to the Monastery of Our Lady, the Queen of Heaven in the town Serpukhov. Find the icon “The Inexhaustible Cup” there. Send your prayer to Her and you’ll get your body and soul recovered”.

Being paralyzed and having nobody to help and no money the peasant couldn’t bring himself to make this long journey. The great ascetic came to him again but the peasant was still afraid to follow his call. And the great ascetic came to him for the third time and ordered to fulfill his will so strictly that the poor drunker set out on his journey immediately on all fours. He stayed for a night in one village. The tender-hearted old hostess made massage to his legs and left him sleeping near the warm village stove. At night the pilgrim felt a pleasant relief in his legs and even could keep standing on his legs for a short time. The next day he felt much better. So, leaning on two and then on one stick, he reached Serpukhov.

Having come to the Monastery, the suffering man has told about his night dreams and asked Monastery people to hold a prayer service. But no one in the Monastery knew about the icon of the Mother of God with such a name (“The Inexhaustible Cup”). But somebody supposed if it could be the icon hanging in the passage leading from the Cathedral to the vestry. There really was an image of a cup on that icon. Much to everyone’s surprise the inscription “The Inexhaustible Cup” was found at the back side of the icon! The newly found holy image was brought to the temple and the brethren hold a prayer service in the face of it. The former drunker returned from Serpukhov absolutely healthy. He recovered not only from the pain in legs but he also recovered from the unconquerable passion to alcohol.

News about the miraculous glorification of the icon of the Mother of God got spread very fast not only in Serpukhov but all around Russia as well. People suffering from alcoholism and their relatives sent their prayers to the Mother of God asking Her for release from the baneful disease and many of them came back again to thank Our Lady, the Queen of Heaven for Her mercy. Very soon the veneration of the icon of the Mother of God “The Inexhaustible Cup” exceeded the bounds of the Monastery.


The miracle-working icon of the Mother of God "The Inexhaustible Cup" in Serpukhov What does this icon present? According to the Christian iconography, it belongs to one of the ancient images of the Mother of God – “Orante”. But the infant God is presented as standing in the cup. What was the godly idea of the one who painted the Mother of God? Undoubtedly it refers to the holy Mystery of the Eucharist. The cup with the benedictive infant God is the Cup of the Eucharist shedding to the believers all blessings granted to the sinful humanity by the vicarious deed of our Lord Jesus Christ. This Cup is really inexhaustible, as the Holy Lamb "He is forever eaten yet is never consumed". And the Mother of God with Her sinless hands upraised like a powerful high-priest with intercession brings to God this sacrifice – Her immolated Son, who took the Flesh and Blood from Her sinless Bloods and put it to the Heaven Sacrificial altar for the salvation of the World and She feeds the believers with it. According to the icon-painting plot and idea the icon of the Mother of God “The Inexhaustible Cup” is very similar to Nicaean icon which got to be known by its miracles in 304s. The Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council decreed singing "Your womb became a Heavenly Table, bearing the Heavenly Bread - Christ our God" in front of it.

Nowadays the Holy image of the Mother of God “The Inexhaustible Cup” is venerated by Orthodox people as Miracle-working. It is kept in Pokrovskiy Temple of Vysotskiy Monastery. In front of this Holy image they daily hold the prayer service with blessing of water and Akathist, after which they commemorate the names of those who suffer from alcoholism.

The copies of the icon of the Mother of God “The Inexhaustible Cup” can be usually seen not only in the houses of the believers but also in many temples and monasteries. One of such venerated copies is presented in the St. John the Theologian Macarovka Monastery. After numerous request of parishioners who’s relatives suffer from alcoholism and drug addiction, the Father superior of the Monastery the Hegumen Lazar (Gurkin) asked for the blessing of Varsanofiy, the Archbishop of Saransk and Mordovia to make a copy of the miracle-working icon of the Mother of God “The Inexhaustible Cup”. The intension of Hegumen Lazar was blessed by the Hierarch and in summer 2001 the copy of the icon was ordered in the Vysotskiy Serpukhov monastery.

Several months passed and on December, 17 the rural dean of Makarovka monastery and the spiritual father came to Serpukhov. The holy image was sanctified by the brethren in the Cathedral of the Monastery’s Father superior Kirill (Kostikov) and after that the newly painted icon was put on the miracle-working icon. In the morning of the next day the brethren brought the icon to Saransk. The hieromonachs and all believers of Saransk and the suburb solemnly met the icon with the religious procession. To the ringing of the church bell and troparion singing the holy image was brought to the Holy Gates where the Monastery’s brethren and the Father superior already gathered. The icon was placed in the temple and the very first prayer service was hold to the gladness of all people who gathered in the church. The

Hegumen made a respective speech and congratulated the parishioners on that holy day. After that everybody had a chance to kiss the holy image and get the blessing of the Mother of God. Since that time every Sunday at 8 a.m. people of the St. John the Theologian monastery hold the prayer service in the face of the icon “The Inexhaustible Cup” with blessing of water and Akathist about all people suffering from alcoholism and drug addiction; and many believers come to this prayer service. Earlier there was only the manuscript variant of the Akathist to the Mother of God which is read in front of Her holy image “The Inexhaustible Cup”. And in 1991, being blessed by His Eminence Juvenaliy the Metropolite of Krutitsk and Kolomna, it was first published by the Vysotskiy monastery.

Ever since then, the Akathist has been published many times in a great many editions. This Akathist is very popular among the believers. Many of them read it daily. There even is a good custom to read this Akathist 40 days running and ask the Mother of God for help to all diseased people. In the believers opinion the Miracle-working icon of the Mother of God “The Inexhaustible Cup” is a real pan-Russia Shrine. The Mother of God with her sinless hands upraised to the Heaven sends Her prayer about all sinners to Her Son and God; She prays for sinners salvation and calls them to change their baneful passion for alcohol to the inexhaustible spring of spiritual joy and consolation and says that The Inexhaustible Cup of Heaven help and charity is waiting for everyone who need it.

[Scott Pierson]

Akathist to the Mother of God The Inexhaustible Cup

Wow, thank you so much for posting this. I'm going to have to print it out.

When I first came to Orthodoxy I had recently come out of active drug and alcohol addiction. Like the person who opened this thread I had some concerns about the wine in the Eucharist. Thankfully it did not cause me to stumble or provide an occasion for temptation and I've been blessed by the Eucharist ever sense. I definitely understand that other people might have differing experiences though and hope that everyone with this problem talks to their priest about it first.

I've been thinking about asking if I can open a Narcotics Anonymous meeting at my Church some time. The NA program has helped so many people and it really helps me to come back to God when my faith is weak. There is something very spiritual about a good NA meeting. I believe just being in an Orthodox Church can have a positive effect on people because of the sanctified nature of the environment. It would probably be a good thing for many of the Orthodox Churches out there to host.

I realize this is an old thread... very old actually. I just had to respond.

[Scott Pierson]

A few years back I purchased the book "Steps of Transformation: An Orthodox Priest Explores the Twelve Steps (http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Transformation-Orthodox-Priest-Explores/dp/1888212632/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b)" by Father Meletios Webber. Excellent book. Thought I would put this out there because it might come in handy for some people suffering from addiction.

I found another Orthodox book on the subject of addiction but haven't been able to read it yet. "Breaking the Chains of Addiction: How to Use Ancient Eastern Orthodox Spirituality to Free Our Minds and Bodies From All Addictions (http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Chains-Addiction-Spirituality-Addictions/dp/1928653200/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b)" by Victor Mihailoff

[Father David Moser]

I found another Orthodox book on the subject of addiction but haven't been able to read it yet. "Breaking the Chains of Addiction: How to Use Ancient Eastern Orthodox Spirituality to Free Our Minds and Bodies From All Addictions (http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Chains-Addiction-Spirituality-Addictions/dp/1928653200/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b)" by Victor Mihailoff

I did one of the initial reviews on this book. I found it to be very good and helpful not only for those who are trying to break an unhealthy addiction but also a good resource for anyone who desires to live a radically Orthodox life. Victor was briefly active in this community, but I haven't seen him around for a while.

Fr David Moser

[Owen Jones]

Just noticed that this thread has been somewhat revived, so a few comments. AA is really the cliffs notes version of the Ladder of Divine Ascent. That maybe 3 - 5% of AA members take full advantage of that is no argument against AA, just an observation. The problem with trying to duplicate what AA does in the Church is two-fold. First of all, no parish in the world that I know of is prepared to offer the intensity of spiritual direction that AA provides to the newcomer, especially in the first 3 months to a year. Imagine a priest who says to an alcoholic parishioner, I will spend two hours per day with you for the next 90 days working on the first step of the Ladder of Divine Ascent, and then when I am absolutely certain that you have incorporated this step into every depth of your being, we can talk about going on to step 2! But this is the AA approach.

Also, priests tend to be too forgiving, too soft. What the AA newcomer needs is a two by four across the head. All in love of course. But most important, the new AA member needs to be around other AA members in order to learn how to be honest. Alcoholics are lying, deceitful, manipulative, selfish, self-centered mental defects in full flight from reality, who all think they are just fine! But they are less able to lie to a sober alcoholic and get away with it. Lying to a priest and getting away with it is just child's play for an alkie.

Were I advising a Catholic, Anglican or Orthodox alcoholic, I would recommend denying himself the eucharist for a period of time until he is stableized and on the road to a sober mind. There is no absolute, but maybe six months to a year.

There are very few priests, therapists or psychiatrists who really understand alcoholism and the true nature of the physical, emotional and spiritual aspects. I once heard a Greek priest say that it was impossible for a Greek Orthodox Christian to become an alcoholic! In theory, yes, but how many of us can say that we have been truly transformed in the Church? So as a practical statement it is an absurdity.

The long-term success rate in alcoholism recovery is above that of trying to "cure" pedophelia, but not that much better. So the therapist who says, don't receive the eucharist, is just practicing valid caution with anyone who is not well on the road.

[Michael Albert]

Were I advising a Catholic, Anglican or Orthodox alcoholic, I would recommend denying himself the eucharist for a period of time until he is stableized and on the road to a sober mind. There is no absolute, but maybe six months to a year.
Absurd. I am glad you did not council me. I was (am) an alcoholic. And it was frequent confession and reception of the most holy and precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that helped to heal me.

God bless

[Owen Jones]

I am happy for you, I really am, but you seem to have missed my point. Alcoholics suffer from a severe, deep-seated psychopathy that is long standing, and alcoholics don't get better over night. So advising someone to refrain from the eucharist for a period of time until they have made notable spiritual progress as a general rule makes sense to me for a couple of reasons. It gives the believer something to look forward to and an even greater incentive to get serious in preparation, and it acknowledges the severity of the problem. That acknowledgment needs to be made by both the priest and the person who is sick. It's as if I were a serial adulterer, criminal and wife beater coming to my priest asking to receive communion. Surely he would want a period of repentance and transformation to be required first (and many alcoholics are more than one of the above). So it is an acknowledgment of the depth of the problem and the amount of work to be done so that one does not receive the eucharist in a state of inadequate preparation. The amount of alcohol a person consumes in receiving the eucharist is not the issue.

[Rick H.]

After reading Owen's last two posts here, I agreed with what was said fully. I awarded these posts two thumbs up.

But, with that said, it occurred to me after the fact, that this would not square up with what was shared in the "Swine Flu" thread.

In the Flu thread, if I remember correctly, the majority view was that there was no way that there could be any danger to the one's who approach the Eucharist properly. Because it brings only healing to both the physical body as well as the nous and the soul. So, I started to wonder something like well which is it?

And, it also occurred to me that this situation is not without direct relevance to the Qigong thread where we left off. Is it?

Fr. Romanides concluded in the quote provided in that thread:

" . . . could there be more than one therapy for this ailment?"

[Owen Jones]

As I said, I am not arguing that receiving alcohol in the eucharist is threatening to an alcoholic. And I am first to believe in the healing power of the eucharist. I was talking about alcoholism as the problem, not the eucharist. The alcoholic is truly blessed because he has to maintain constant vigilance over his spiritual condition or else he will die. He cannot afford complacency. For most people, they do not have the urgent incentive to avoid complacency in their spiritual lives. My priest always makes a statement about the requirements before coming up to receive the eucharist. My argument is that one should not receive the eucharist in a state of extreme moral and spiritual disorder which typifies the alcoholic. And it's a good thing for alcoholics to learn the importance of depriving themselves of something until they are ready for it.

[Kosta]

I believe both points of view can be reconciled. A strict spiritual father can advice to refrain from communion to an alcoholic until penance is complete. The canons are full of actions to suspend and individual in recieving Holy Communion ( in cases of adultery its quite long). An improperly prepared person can bring death upon himself by taking Eucharist, and no one should decieve themselves, thats why many are sick and usually blame their conditions on the excuse that there getting old(er).

At the same time i dont see how the Holy Eucharist can make an alcoholic relapse. Its the Body and Blood of Christ period, it is the lack of faith that would be the problem. Secondly even before consecration the wine is mixed with extremely hot water.

[Paul Cowan]

This thread is better understood by alcoholics. Not those assuming they know what alcoholics brains do.

Separately, it is not due to lack of faith. How horrible would it be to say to a mother of a dying child, "if only you or the child just had a little more faith, it would still be alive." NO, this is cruel and unChristian.


Secondly even before consecration the wine is mixed with extremely hot water.

What wold you say to a sex addict? it's ok, there are also car articles in there, it won't hurt you to read that magazine.

The Body and Blood of Christ is Holy, Pure and undefiled. It is US who are broken. It is US who have sinned and as a result of our sin, we live in corrupted and broken bodies. The body is broken, not the spirit. The spirit can handle the Euchrist, the body sometimes can not and sometimes, should not.

Paul

[Ben Johnson]

I'm not a alcoholic. I do have an inner ear problem which sometimes causes dizziness. A few years ago I had a cold and tried some Nyquil and the alcohol in it made me feel a little light-headed for the night. The Eucharist I take has not affected me at all. Would such a minute amount affect an alcoholic?

--Ben

[Paul Cowan]

Every person is different. There are no absolutes or broad brush strokes to cover every person or every addiction. The answer yes or no. It depends on the person and where they are in or out of recovery. Non addicts cannot understand the mindset of an addict of whatever addiction. It makes no sence to the nonaddict what an addict does and for what reasons they do it. They rarely even understand.

Have you never talked yourself into doing something and then later on thought that was pretty stupid. Same thing here except to the nth degree. Have you heard of a brown out or a black out? An alcoholic does not know why he takes the first drink and does not if there will be a last. What is the trigger? Walking past a pub? Smelling hops from the local brewery? tasting wine from the chalice? seeing a commercial for chain saws? Who knows.

Perhaps this story from Fr. Averky of blessed memory from this very thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17856&postcount=8)will help.

Paul

[Ben Johnson]

Have you never talked yourself into doing something and then later on thought that was pretty stupid.

Paul Sure have. No argument here.

[Michael Albert]

I am happy for youThank you.

but you seem to have missed my point. I don't think so.

So advising someone to refrain from the eucharist for a period of time until they have made notable spiritual progress as a general rule makes sense to me for a couple of reasons.
That is a decision for the spiritual father /confessor.

It's as if I were a serial adulterer, criminal and wife beater coming to my priest asking to receive communion.
Such an analogy!

Surely he would want a period of repentance and transformation to be required first (and many alcoholics are more than one of the above).
Do I understand that you are now calling alcoholics "serial adulterers, criminals and wife beaters"? Your statements are ludicrous!

So it is an acknowledgment of the depth of the problem and the amount of work to be done so that one does not receive the eucharist in a state of inadequate preparation.
As such, you should have no opinion in the matter. Preparation and reception is between the individual and their spiritual father/confessor. You do not read hearts.

The amount of alcohol a person consumes in receiving the eucharist is not the issue. They are not "consuming alcohol". They are receiving the most holy and precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

[Michael Albert]

Perhaps this story from Fr. Averky of blessed memory from this very thread (http://www.monachos.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17856&postcount=8)will help.

Beautiful!

[Owen Jones]

I'm not making a comparison. I am making an analogy based on some deep seated pathologies. Although alcoholism frequently leads to some pretty ghastly behavior towards others. Yes, it's a pastoral issue; I am not framing this as an absolute by any means. But alcoholism involves deep seated pathologies that are typically minimized by both the alcoholic and well meaning people who try to help alcoholics. The sooner these are rooted out, the less prospect of disaster down the road (about 10% of real alcoholics remain alcohol and drug free permanently, but that in and of itself is not a spiritual status report).

The theology of the eucharist as I understand it is that you should never receive it in a state of anger or enmity toward another. There are countless Biblical and patristic references to the problem of receiving the eucharist in a state of moral and spiritual impurity (and bodily impurity as well). There is no pure, absolute state of love either. We do not have to be spiritually perfect to receive the eucharist. But I have never met an alcoholic that did not have deep seated anger and resentments, and these don't just instantly go away for ever, and they certainly don't go away just because somebody stops drinking, they most often get worse; so I just think that pastorally this be taken into account when a newly sober drunk is talking to his priest about receiving the eucharist. My comments are as much for the benefit of clergy trying to help alcoholics as to the alcoholic himself. The idea however that I am making an attack on the eucharist as somehow insufficient to bring healing to an alcoholic is a gross distortion of what I have said, or at least tried to say...and represents a kind of absolutist logic. My point could be applied universally to all of us, not just alcoholics; it's just that alcoholics tend to present themselves as extreme cases. We have a thread on the eucharist where a lot of these points are addressed... At the very least, let's not treat the eucharist as a right (as opposed to rite!).

But if we think of the kind of transformation that an alcoholic needs to undergo, for his own benefit, it seems to me entirely fitting that he be treated as a sort of catechumen in the faith for a while before receiving the eucharist, rather than seeing the eucharist as a cure that is detached from our ascetical requirements. If I were asked to write a manual for priests on the subject, I might recommend that the priest say, OK, once you have completed step 9, we will talk about receiving the eucharist. That imposes a discipline on the alcoholic, which he should enthusiastically embrace. But heck, what do I know????

[Owen Jones]

btw, Michael, thank you so much for reminding us of this post by Fr. Averky. I don't thank you because I am claiming that somehow it is a proof of my arguments. Simply that it is difficult for others to grasp the turmoil involved in recovery from alcoholism, the extent of the moral, spiritual emotional wreckage involved, the ongoing, deepseated fears. Usually the alcoholic himself is the last person to grasp this.

[Owen Jones]

This statement by Metropolitan Hierotheos says it much better than I could:


St.Gregory the Theologian views pastoral care as the most difficult science, and he definitely ties it with man's divinization. For this reason he would like the shepherds to be previously cured in order to be able to guide their spiritual children to therapy and divinization.

The Sacred Canons of the Church present the pastoral method. If we view the Canons as legal schemes and structures, we fail to recognize their true place within the Church. As we have said elsewhere, the Sacred Canons are medicine to cure man. A careful examination of the Canons will lead us to the conclusion that they presuppose man's illness, which is the darkening of the nous, and they aim at man's health, which is the illumination of the nous and divinization. According to St.Basil the Great there are five stages for those who repent, namely, those who stay outside the Church, crying and asking to be forgiven by the Christians; those who attend and listen to the Divine Word but leave the Church at the time the catechumens do; those who stay at the narthex of the Church and attend the Divine Liturgy on their knees; those who stay within the main Church, remain there and pray with the rest of the faithful without however partaking in the holy Communion; and, finally, there are those who partake in the Body and Blood of Christ; these stages manifest that every sin, which constitutes the darkening of the nous, is a repetition of Adam's sin and a degradation from true life. Then man is no longer a living member of Christ's Church. They also show that repentance is but the struggle so that man becomes a member of the Church.

As stated before, the existence of the iconostasis should be viewed within this perspective. In older times there were no iconostases just some veils and everyone had a visual communion with the goings-on because the entire holy Temple was a place for the believers, for the true Church members. There was a substantial separation between the Narthex and the main Temple. When someone sinned, he could not attend the Temple nor pray with the believers. Thus there existed a class of repenters who were essentially in the catechumens state. Later though, as a consequence of secularism in faith, those in repentance were allowed in the Temple, but iconostases were erected.

[Michael Albert]

But I have never met an alcoholic that did not have deep seated anger and resentments, and these don't just instantly go away for ever, and they certainly don't go away just because somebody stops drinking, they most often get worse;
Such an odd thing to say? Most alcoholics I know, who have stopped drinking, have come to terms with many periphial issues and are no longer angry or resentful (if they were angry or resentful to begin with). Your comments seem to be way off the mark.

My comments are as much for the benefit of clergy trying to help alcoholics as to the alcoholic himself.
Do you counsel clergy on pastoral issues?

The idea however that I am making an attack on the eucharist as somehow insufficient to bring healing to an alcoholic is a gross distortion of what I have said

Then perhaps you are not explaining youself adequately.



But if we think of the kind of transformation that an alcoholic needs to undergo, for his own benefit, it seems to me entirely fitting that he be treated as a sort of catechumen in the faith for a while before receiving the eucharist,

Are you a priest?


If I were asked to write a manual for priests on the subject, I might recommend that the priest say, OK, once you have completed step 9, we will talk about receiving the eucharist.

I do not think the priests need a manual.

[Owen Jones]

My view on the subject is fully in accord with the thinking of Metropolitan Hierotheos, who does not seem to underestimate the ascetical task.

[Michael Albert]

My view on the subject is fully in accord with the thinking of Metropolitan Hierotheos,

No, it is not. Met. Hierotheos is stating pure theological truths regarding the darkened nous and divinization. He is not telling priests to withhold the Holy Eucharist from alcoholics.

[Owen Jones]

He is also saying that according to the ascetical and liturgical and canonical traditions, we don't just feed people the eucharist willy nilly. That's all I am saying. Really. That's all I am saying. And he and others are saying that traditionally the Church viewed people as sicker than the Church treats people today. Our own people, as well as people who were knocking on the door wanting to get in. And I am saying that alcoholics are generally sicker than they think they are and that clergy think they are. So some ascetical discipline ought to be a part of our preparation for the eucharist, and that takes some time, especially for the NEWLY sober alcoholic. I am not suggesting that the alcoholic is somehow a bad person, or an evil person who ought to be denied the eucharist because he's this terrible alcoholic, and I am certainly not suggesting that alcoholics be denied the eucharist FOREVER! But I don't see it as a denial of anything at all. To not receive the eucharist for a while because you are engaged in some important ascetical work that has been prescribed for you seems to me to be very much a part of who we are as Orthodox. OF course, eucharistic discipline varies widely in the Orthodox faith. Try a Serbian Church sometime! On the rare occasion that somebody receives the eucharist other than the priest, it is all worked out in advance by the priest and he makes it clear to the congregation that the person has undergone a period of strict preparation, and then everybody applauds! Now this may seem to be the opposite extreme of the general practice, but I personally lean in that direction. That hopefully clarifies things. But maybe not!

[Michael Albert]

He is also saying that according to the ascetical and liturgical and canonical traditions, we don't just feed people the eucharist willy nilly.

Of course not. And you are waaaayyy out of line to suggest that alcoholics should not receive it.



And I am saying that alcoholics are generally sicker than they think they are and that clergy think they are.

That is your opinion---and only your opinion. You are not a reader of hearts.


So some ascetical discipline ought to be a part of our preparation for the eucharist, and that takes some time, especially for the NEWLY sober alcoholic.

Ascetical preparation should be a part of EVERYONE'S preparation.


I am not suggesting that the alcoholic is somehow a bad person, or an evil person who ought to be denied the eucharist because he's this terrible alcoholic

Good.


and I am certainly not suggesting that alcoholics be denied the eucharist FOREVER!

Perhaps they should not be denied the Eucharist at all?


To not receive the eucharist for a while because you are engaged in some important ascetical work that has been prescribed for you seems to me to be very much a part of who we are as Orthodox.
Again, you are not a priest or a spiritual father.


Try a Serbian Church sometime!

I have...I have also communed at ROCOR, OCA, and Greek Orthodox Churches...and various monasteries.


On the rare occasion that somebody receives the eucharist other than the priest, it is all worked out in advance by the priest and he makes it clear to the congregation that the person has undergone a period of strict preparation, and then everybody applauds!

Applauds? You mean they literally clap their hands when someone receives? Like being at the theater? Gasp!

I have seen and lived both sides. My experience has shown that infrequent preparation and reception leads to decay. The Eucharist is the focus of the Liturgy. It was NEVER a part of the holy tradition of the Orthodox Church to practice infrequent preparation and communion--for the first 1700 years or so.


Now this may seem to be the opposite extreme of the general practice, but I personally lean in that direction. That hopefully clarifies things. But maybe not!

Yes. That explains a lot.

[Owen Jones]

Where have I said that alcoholics should not receive communion? I do not honestly think I made such a blanket statement. And I also am not trying to make any point in terms of denial of communion, as in: you are an alcoholic, therefore you are denied communion. But we are all sicker than we think, and alcoholics especially!!!

[Michael Albert]

Where have I said that alcoholics should not receive communion?

You have been making a case for a very long time that alcoholics perhaps should be advised to refrain from receving for a period of time. Many people are sick--including alcoholics. It is not your place to dictate who should possibly be advised not to receive the holy Eucharist for a period of time.

Frankly, I think many of your posts on this thread borderline on scandalous!


And I also am not trying to make any point in terms of denial of communion, as in: you are an alcoholic, therefore you are denied communion.

Good. Then perhaps this thread can quietly fade away.


But we are all sicker than we think

Amen, my brother in Christ.

[Owen Jones]

These are suggestions. I have no power over anyone, and I do not desire any power over anyone. None of my statements are intended as absolutes. Take what you can use and leave the rest...

[Owen Jones]

btw, I LOVE alcoholics...

[M.C. Steenberg]

I rather suspect that a strong, emotive reaction to a point is causing the deeper issues to be sidelined. The question of whether certain spiritual struggles are aided or hindered by refraining, in the proper context and relationship of obedience, from receipt of communion, shouldn't just be swept away because one feels strongly about (for or against) it. There are important matters to be discerned in this.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Owen Jones]

And there is the matter of tone. I can think something in a certain tone, but when it is in a post, that is lost. Like my above comment, which was sincere and honest and not intended as sarcasm at all. Lincoln said that you have never really loved until you have loved an alcoholic!!!

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Fr Dn Matthew wrote:



The question of whether certain spiritual struggles are aided or hindered by refraining, in the proper context and relationship of obedience, from receipt of communion, shouldn't just be swept away because one feels strongly about (for or against) it. There are important matters to be discerned in this.

Each particular person and their particular circumstance are so important. This includes the circumstance of the parish where for example the faithful may follow the discipline of 'seasonal confession': name's days, & major fasts. In this situation confession itself & reception of the Eucharist become the remaining door of opportunity for 'coming to oneself'. If one imposes a penance of refraining from the Cup one ends up promoting the very distance from the life of the Church that one is trying as priest (and hopefully parishioner) to turn around.

Here I have to admit that over the years I have moved a lot on this issue. Where at the beginning of my time as priest I was quite strict about certain sins automatically barring one from the Cup, at the encouragement of my spiritual father I began to see that for many people (more than we take into account at times) to approach confession and to confess their sin is a tremendous act of self-renunciation; a kind of epitimia in itself. By not allowing the person to commune one ends up encouraging them to actually back away from the life of the Church and to indulge in that 'freedom' which we see too many of us already being part of.

It is very different though in parishes where frequent, weekly communion is practiced. Here I think that actively refraining from the Eucharist in connection with confession would be proper & necessary.

In Christ- Fr Raphael