Is faith elitist?

[Rebecca Duncan]

isn't faith just another way of saying i have secret knowledge you don't have? how is that any better than the gnostics?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Rebecca,

Faith is not a secret knowledge but rather that which Christ desires all to have. But due to sin we are blind and we do not often recognise this. We take the insane fantasy of our passions for reality.

Christ wants to show us the reality of the Kingdom and for us to live in it through repentance. So it is only due to our spiritual blindness that faith in Christ may appear to be some sort of secret knowledge; perhaps the fact that the world is so habitually far from Christ is why this faith and its content would appear esoteric and strange. I remember as a new convert to Orthodoxy excitedly telling someone who was of the Evangelical persuasion about what I had read in the Philokalia; the response to this was to the effect of , 'Christians should not be following the teachings of Zen Buddhism'!
If there was blindness there it was mine also.

There are many things we as Orthodox Christians also do not see yet; 'we see but in a glass darkly' until the veil is taken away more fully in Christ. It is not the Faith that is secret; rather it is we who are still blind.

In Christ- Fr R

[Marie-Duquette]

As I read your posts, the thought comes to me that there is a difference between "Belief" and "Faith", don't you think?

A person can repeat the CREED which is a set of beliefs, or a Belief System, yet have very little Faith!

For me Faith is a Gift received from God-Trinity, at Baptism or otherwise, received as a "seed" it is to be nurtured day by day in our Christian Life with the assistance of the Holy Spirit dwelling within the soul. I need to be constantly "vigilant" "repentant" "attentive"
to the Word of God-present in my life, "humbly accepting and living this Living Word each day. In the practice of Hope, Love, Prayer, etc perhaps not all at once-- but during my life time on earth, ever striving . . .

So, is Faith "elitist"? each of us is called or chosen, so the decision is mine to take or to refuse. . . pray for me a sinner

Marie Duquette

[Pan. Tsiros]

quite simple!
A Korinthians chapter 13 1,2,3,...

a frequent reader of your forum
Pan.Tsiros

[Owen Jones]

It's a good question. Faith is elitist in a certain sense. One cannot discount the Royal imagery in Scripture. What Christian faith does, is it elevates the lowest person of faith to the position of royalty. Witness Christ's birth in a manger. Prior to Christ, the royal person was the embodiment of divine authority. And, of course, one of the Gospels traces Christ's royal lineage. Far from a kind of egalitarian ideology, this does not negate royal authority, but rather turns it upside down. It permits the person in the lowest social strata of society to participate in those virtues and powers once reserved only for the royal political authority and those of his class. In the liturgy, we all participate in this royal symbolism. It is a takeoff from the King (Christ) receiving his royal court. And in monarchic societies, the King was a participant alongside the people, and the Bishop replaces the King for the position of honor in the sanctuary.

Now begs the question of the mass diffusion of Christianity and the effect of that. While we are commanded to spread the Gospel, we are also told that not everyone will accept it. So for those who are faithful, they serve an iconic function, for the rest of the world, much as the Monarchy does for the populace as a whole.

However, this elitism of the Church is not something to be lorded over others in a vain way. Of course, the ideal monarch in any case is not someone who is vain but humble, does not tyrannize his people but acts with wisdom and takes his duties seriously in obedience to Divine Will.

Societies reflect the spiritual health or condition of its elites, who are judged by God by a different, higher, more exacting standard, since what they have in terms of wealth, intelligence, authority and power are all given from God. So it is in the Church, where the elite of the Church are judged by a higher standard. Also, there is a strong tradition in Orthodoxy, that the elites are judged by the faithful, and that the faithful have a right to exercise that judgment.

I think we should not simply dispense with the idea of an elite as a negative term. Tragically, since the Reformation, the idea of an aristocratic elite has come under wholesale assault by mindless ideologues.

[Owen Jones]

The most elite of the virtues is the privilege of not being bound by a narrow time sense: the luxury of being able to look at the long view of things. And that is the elite virtue that faith bestows on the lowest of believers who, otherwise, are trapped by circumstances.

But looking back through the thread, I find that the original question did not use the term elite; somehow that got added later. The original question asked if faith was not gnostic.

Also a good, fair question I think. And indeed, the idea of gnosis is a key concept in patristic Christianity, and particularly in the writings of the ascetics. One should distinguish between gnosis, which is an inner illumination regarding the true nature and purpose of reality, vs. gnosticism, which is a system or theory regarding reality. Ancient gnostic systems claimed that physical reality, time, history -- these were all illusions. Modern gnostic systems reverse this and claim that there is no transcendent, only an immanent reality, and that salvation takes place through a transformation of an immanent reality, i.e., creating heaven on earth. But the classical ascetics argued that, through ascetic discipline, the senses are transformed, and this permits the faithful to see things as they really are -- their true nature and purpose -- which the non-illumined cannot see, or experience. And in fact the traditional liturgical discipline, beginning with the catechuminate, is entirely built on this foundation. The catechumens were not permitted to stay for the reading of Scripture, the sermon or the Holy Mysteries, because of the belief that they were not yet illumined and could not comprehend the mysterious truths of the Gospel, Christian theology, or the eucharist. Yes, a gnostic premise, but not a gnostic ideology in the same sense in which the term has come to be popularly known today. My own personal opinion is that the loss of the gnostic dimension of Christianity, as a result of its widespread social acceptance, has led to a loss of those perceptive qualities that the classical ascetics write about, and which forms the basis of the Church's theology after Pentacost. Therefore, most of us study theology without the prior requirement of illumination, and we make a claim regading our knowledge of theology which is not substantiated by our inner illumination.

Unfortunately, most people who become curious about this gnostic tradition presume that they can short-circuit the path toward gnosis, just by reading gnostic texts like the Philokalia, without undergoing the same askesis. Which is the modern sin: that there is a short-cut to salvation.

[M. Rallis]

Dear All:

One of the books that I’ve been enjoying during the current Lenten season, is “Monastic Wisdom: The Letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast”. Elder Joseph was a 20th century Athonite monk. In these two quotations, from the thirtieth letter, I perceive an answer to Rebecca Duncan’s question as to whether having faith, is paramount to having some “secret” that is not generally available.

“First of all, once we recognize God as the Creator of every good thing, as our Father, Provider, and Protector, we must believe in Him with all our heart and soul. We must have our hope only in Him, and when we perceive His manifold benefactions, we shall love Him. And when we love God with all our heart as the Creator, then we shall also love our neighbor as ourselves, knowing that we are all brothers….by nature, in Adam; and by grace, in Christ. And therefore a spiritual person should not regard affinity of the flesh, since he has dedicated himself to God, but spiritual affinity. For the flesh, male and female, is for reproduction which we have renounced and ascended higher. Therefore, as spiritual people that we are, we must perceive things spiritually. As for the soul, there is no such thing as a male or female soul, nor a young or old soul; only the grace of Christ over all. “


“Since God is continuously present, why do you worry? For in Him we live and move. We are carried in His arms. We breathe God; we are vested with God; we touch God; we consume God in the Mystery. Wherever you turn, wherever you look, God is everywhere: in the heavens, on the earth, in the abysses, in the trees, within the rocks, in your nous, in your heart. So can’t He see that you are suffering, that you are going through tribulations? Tell Him your grievances and you will see consolation, you will see healing which will heal not only the body, but even more so the passions of your soul.”

We can no more avoid God’s loving presence than we can the effects of the Sun shining on our planet. But to come to a spiritual perception of this reality, to consciously live in this reality, requires belief with “all our heart and soul” and proceeds through the “ascetic discipline”, which Owen mentioned, whereby we achieve healing “even more so the passions of your soul.” Healing of the same condition which Father Raphael refers to by: “But due to sin we are blind and we do not often recognize this. We take the insane fantasy of our passions for reality.” All the while, we are all, every one of us, “carried in His arms”. No matter how far we have progressed, or failed to progress, in our spiritual lives; we “breathe God”; His love sustains us.

So, to me, there is no secret knowledge here, just the living of the “Life in Christ”, the growing into the “likeness of God”, the being “clothed in Christ”. A dynamic process lived within the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. What could be secretive about a plan for salvation that all of creation is called to be a part of? If we have learned to love our neighbor as our self, how could we not witness to him about the healing which has changed our own lives? Or, perhaps, rather than a secret knowledge which serves to separate the initiated and un-initiated, faith is the beginning of a bond of spiritual kinship, uniting all in Christ, with “the grace of Christ over all”.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Rebecca

As Fr. Raphael posted,faith is "that which Christ desires all to have, this itself sets faith apart from the "secret knowledge" of the Eastern mystery religions, and gnosticism. Therefore, at the bottom line it's intrinsically differnt from the knowledge of the gnostics. But therein lies the rub; as they say, for faith at its core is not based upon what either you or I may term knowledge. No doubt you're aware of the classic definition found at the beginning of the 11th chapter of Hebrews, but if faith isn't based uon knowledge, as I the unworthy servant ses it, faith is based upon relatioship, which in this instance, is relationship with/to our Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and God.

This then is the difference; and as Fr. Raphael has said, this is something which is open to everyone.

a sinful & unworthy servant

[John Curtis Dunn]

To answer the original question:

isn't faith just another way of saying i have secret knowledge you don't have? how is that any better than the gnostics?

NO!

Faith is not possession of secret knowledge, but it certainly is dependent upon possession of knowledge.

St. Paul the Apostle explained that latter dependency in Romans 10:14 & 17 "How than shallthey call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? ...So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

But, if we read the context of these verses, we also learn that faith is not simply a possession of knowledge. In verse 16 the Holy Apostle explains: "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. Herein lies the primary characteristic of faith: obedience. Where there is no obedience there is no faith, but only an aborted gnosis. The seed is not bad, but the soil has something incorrupt which aborts the fruitful growth of life everlasting.

There are however mystical kinds of knowledge within the experience of being an Orthodox Christian which cultivate the knowledge of faith. Not all (and perhaps few) who experience the mystical knowledge of God, Christ, the Church, the Kingdom of God are capable and experienced to convey that knowledge in an Orthodox manner.

The Apostle Peter explained, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord jesus Christ, but were eyewitness of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory. This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light tha shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and day star arise in your hearts..." [2 Pt. 1:16-19]

Here is how faith matures in our hearts and minds; submitting ourselves in obedience to the Orthodox Faith. It is also noteworthy that the request of the Apostles to our Lord to increase their faith came in the context of His teaching them about forgiveness. Our Lord's reply was to direct their minds towards their own obedience, "...when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say "We are unprofitable servants, we have done that which was our duty to do."

Our measure of faith is directly correspondent to our measure of obedience. Herein lies the evidence of the poverty of our faith, yet even the poverty of our faith, if exercised faithfully is capable of altering the landscape of our lives. [Luke 17:6-10]

As we can see, there are no short-cuts to faith, but the sad reality is that we are slow to believe and we are cumbered about with much care. We bite and devour one another for our rights as if our rights constitute the essense of righteousness.

Those who have been great in faith, have also been great in humble obedience.

john dunn

[Daniel Jeandet]

Good posts Owen. People like to say, "knowledge is power", but for Christians maybe "powerlessness is knowledge".

Owen, I sent you an email through the hotmail address in your profile. I had something to tell you. I dont know if you got it, Im just checking in case its an old address you dont use any more or something.

[Marie-Duquette]

Owen, I believe that the thread did mention the word "elitist" The question seems to have been edited. It had first stated: "Is Faith elitist? then continued with the sentence in the initial post.

Since I read that post I've been struggling mentally with the meaning of the word: "elitist"
Have looked it up in the dictionary, and have tried to reconcile it with the word "gnostic" .

I appreciate your response. Thank you. Hope that this thread continues. For, though Faith is of the utmost importance, I do think that gnosticism has much to un-veil for a deeper understanding of Christianity.
Marie Duquette

[Rebecca Duncan]

yes, but what are you saying owen, is that only the illumined can understand these things. which is exactly what i've come across talking with orthodox people. if someone doesn't understand an aspect of the faith, their response is, you just don't understand, if you had more faith you would. and how are you to obtain this faith? gift from god? if so...it doesn't sound much like a choice to me. acseticism? why would you even be an ascetic or practice that if you didn't first have faith? it seems like a catch 22 to me.

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Rebecca:

Your original question was this: "isn't faith just another way of saying I have secret knowledge you don't have? how is that any better than the gnostics?"

To which I would reply: no, that it not at all what faith is. Faith is not an intellectual assent to an abstract concept; it is faith in a person: God Himself, as one has faith in a beloved friend even though we may not understand exactly what that friend is doing. Faith cannot be separated from love: His, and ours.

On the other hand, faith has nothing to do with our relationship with others, which must be built solely on love, not on comparison or judgment or the illusion that comes from making prideful (and therefore by definition sinful) distinctions ("I have secret knowledge you don't have"). Love after the example of Christ makes no distinctions ("in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female," St. Paul writes): on the contrary, it calls us to identify ourselves wholly with others, after the example of Christ, Who identified Himself wholly with us in our sinfulness and suffering.

When at the climax of the Eucharist, the priest brings forth Christ's Body and Blood so that we may partake of them, he says, "in faith and love, draw near."

And so it is: we draw near to Christ in faith and in love; the two are inseparable. And we draw near to others through love alone.

I hope this may perhaps help to dispel the difficulty you have discerned. Thanks for raising the question.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta

[Rebecca]

The quote in the Gospel about the mustard seed is beautiful...mustard seeds are such tiny little specs, but grow into bounteous leafy plants that provide nourishment to people...

Reading the quote from Elder Joseph above, I'm reminded of the sweet hymn "He's got the whole world in His hands"...The verse about the "little tiny babies" is especially touching, imo, followed by "He's got you and me, brother, in His hands"...

and because this is a wonderful quote given the beautiful uniqueness of each person that has ever or will ever live:

"For the Almighty God, in His care for all men, turns some to salvation by commands, some by threats, some by miraculous signs, some by gentle promises"

-- St Clement of Alexandria, Stromata Book 6 Chapter 3

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Rebecca,

I posted previously that as I the unworthy servant see it, faith is based upon relationship, as Jurretta has pointed out, it's not how we're related to others. I should have said plainly, that faith is based upon our relationship with the Holy Trinity. First there's love, then relationship, then trust, then faith as the relationship grows in maturity and longevity. God has said, "but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back my soul has no pleasure in him". Believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who trust Him.

I believe that I've said before that each and every one of us will at one point or another, struggle against the world,the flesh, and the Devil. Absolutely no one can avoid this!! Asceticism then, is just another word used to describe the Christian's lifelong battle against all the forms of sin encountered. It is not a requirement to have faith,(for some reason there seems to me to be in that statement of yours, the idea of great faith, I may be wrong), a person makes the definitive choice to concentrate upon spiritual warfare above all else for no other reason than as St. Paul says, "to leave all things behind, pressing onward for the upward call of God in Christ Jesus"

Should a Christian ever be in the position of defending his/her faith(beliefs), the accusation of elitism will certainly be leveled. Just think of how often Orthodox are charged with being snobs for saying they belong to the "one true faith."

However; our God is an elitist God, for He will have no other gods before Him. Then again, membership in God's elitist group is open to everyone. If there's a lack of understanding about a particular aspect, is faith needed, no. What is needed at that point is sticktoitness, remember if you shrink back after having put your hand to the plow, i.e., if you do not live by faith, you're not fit for the kingdom, and the soul of God has no pleasure in you.(Luke 9:57-62; Hebrews 10:32-39)

You say,"it doesn't sound like much of a choice to me", but it is a choice, just as whether or not being a Christian is a choice. We choose what destination we wish to arrive at, and having chosen we must endure /accept the rules of the road to that destination. Again, there's no avoiding that principle.

Do not be dismayed, for the body of Christ is a body, weaker(lesser faith) members, and strong (greater faith) members complement one another by the grace of God, and so arrive at the banquet feast of the Lamb of God.

a sinful & unworthy servant

[Owen Jones]

Dear Rebecca,

I've had the same experience. But here's something that perhaps we are missing. Classically understood, the life of the spirit is something that one progresses toward. One need only a miniscule amount of faith, or no faith in fact, to start the journey. One need only be chosen. And indeed most of the prophets and disciples were either unwilling at best or pretty dastardly people when they started out on their journey.

The problem that we experience today is really a philosophical crisis which asserts that reality in order to be real must be objectifiable, measureable, quantifiable, either something or nothing. There is no recognition of any in between reality. So in religion, the presumption is that one has faith or one hasn't. This is true in Protestantism in particular in which it is claimed that one is either saved or not, and there must be some very clear-cut, demonstrable proof of that.

But in Orthodoxy we progress (or ascend) from Glory to Glory. At least, that is the goal and the operative experience of the Apostles and Fathers of the Church. So there is the faith of the child. There is a pure, simple faith of the woman at the well, or the blind man who is healed by Jesus. And there is the faith that builds on itself so that one is perfected in faith.

For the mystical explication of this, see Gregory of Nyssa. I do not think you will sense anything in St. Gregory in which he is condemning others for not being, some, on the same high spiritual plane as himself.

[Wally]

In the tradition I came from faith was seen as the gift of God, something imputed in your heart to which you were unable to resist. I came more and more to feel that this was not an act of love, but an act of coercion. Viewing faith in this light I think does make one a member of some kind of elite, or in the more well known terminology part of an elect.

I now see faith not as a gift planted in us, but as a response to what has been given to us. I think in responding to God’s kenosis we don’t become part of an elite, we simply gain recognition of our humble and desperate position before the God who has given all. The faith which we return is an act of love. Faith to me is not the absence of doubt, it is the hope that somehow I may always remain one step ahead of my doubts.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Rebecca Duncan,

Looking at your profile, I see that you are undecided as to your religious beliefs and that you are seeking. Frankly speaking, it is rather difficult to discuss what faith means to a person who has never experieced it. It would be like trying to describe how a certain fruit or a particular food tastes to a person who has never seen or been in a situation wherein he could try it. Or, to describe the beauty of a site or a monument to someone who has never seen it. Faith is an intrinsic part of man's makeup, and he at various times puts his faith in other people, family, and, more often, his own abilities. But faith in God comes only with effort and the desire for salvation. It comes accompanied by struggle, trials, fears, and difficulties, sorrows and failings, yet its reward far surpasses the victories and rewards of this world. Those who have experienced the rewards of faith willing bear whatever is needed to accomplish it.

I would suppose that first we have to have a desire to have faith, faith in something. Unfortunately, we are living in an age where people are urged to believe in themselves above all: to be first, to win, to be a success, to be wealthy, and even to be loved, and in all of this, to accomplish these things on our own initiative. While it is true that many are talented enough, clever enough and industrious enough to accomplish certain of life's sucesses, there still comes a point in their lives when they realize that there are so many things that they simply cannot do, no matter what gifts of ability, education, influence, and even wile that they might possess. It is so sad to see how most of our young people are being raised with no spiritual or religious values. While they are taught right from wrong in a legal sense, they are being deprived of the concept of good and evil and its effect on their lives. Matters grow worse all the time, for now young people are being told, especially in the media, that no conduct is bad, and that all forms of "lifestyles" are acceptable-that no one is to be judged for his moral behaviour. Recently we were deluged with news of thousnds of people getting "married" in a manner against God's Law. Nothing is sacred, nothing is wrong; it's all a matter of personal preferance. Thus do we see young people murdering others, even their own parents, with absolutely no remorse. On television, very young children are exposed to monsterous creatures doing battle with but a few champions for the good. Satanic pictures and images are the posters on the walls of teenagers, and they rarely if ever go to church with their parents. Yet, Rebecca, there are millions upon millions of peole who believe in Jesus Christ, and who daily put all their trust, hope and faith in Him.

For the vast majority of us it finally came to the place where we simply have that have had to accept and acknowledge that there is a Greater Power upon which all creation uiltimately relies. Of course there have been those who over the centuries who claimed that there is no God and that science or philosophy or pure logic is enough for man to achieve all that he desires. In the end, at some point, hopefully he will come to the understanding that no matter how intelligent, gifted or talented or politically powerful he might be, he is still very limited and can actually accomplish little.

Faith is something that all men have had since civilizatiin began. As we look back in time, we see that great empires and cultured civilizatiins like the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans had a complex set of religious beliefs, and faith in the power of the gods was an important aspect of those religions. As we look at the myriad of gods, we can see where someone like the Pharoah Akhnaten could come to the conclusion that there was but one god, the Sun. If we look the different "powers" of the Egyptian gods,we see that they actually respresent attributes of the one True God, but He was not known to them.

Before war, in times of drought, floods, at the time of harvest and so on, putting faith in their gods, peoples of ancient nations prayed to them and brought various offerings to them. When all went well, rich gifts were offered to the gods, accompanied by solemn religious ceremonies, for the people believed that there faith had been rewarded. Now, those gods are long gone, for they were but rocks or trees or beautiful pieces of carved marble, lifeless and powerless, their magnificent temples liying in the dust for they were to be replaced by the knowledge of the One, True, and everlasting God in Trinity and one of those Persons would become man for our sake.

In the Pentateuch, we see how God told Ambraham to take his peoole and go to a new place where in his people would thrive. Believing God to be True, he showed his faith in Him and did as he had been told, From this time we see the special relationship between God and His chosen people, the people of Israel. They had found favor with God because they singularly were monotheistic in a time when nations worshipped a myriad of deities, some of which were evil, such as Baal. The history of the Chosen People is one of faith in God no matter what befell them over many long centuries. Of course, there were times when they faltered and fell, yet there was always that one person so strong in his faith and trust that God would show mercy to all of His chosen people. Still, as it has always been among men, there were many whose hearts hardened, and they drifted far from Him, loving the Law, but being dead in the spirit.

In His mercy, God sent his prophets to turn them back to God, but they killed them, desiring to live their lives as they did, with only a formal relationship with Him. Finally, in His greatest show of Love for all of us, God sent His only begotten Son for man's salvation.

Rebecca, for those of us who are Christians, and in this case, those of us who are Orthodox Christians, Jesus Christ is the central Person of all of human history, for with His life, death and resurrection from the dead, all hope, all faith, all longing of the human heart has been accomplished. has been This precious Faith that we have is not a "secret," it is God's greatest love and mercy to man, and why could this be something to be shared and experienced by a few, While it is true that in the early Church there arose some sects with a gnostic view of Christianity, the Church triumphed over them. In fact, all of the old heresies exist, just in newer, more subtle forms. Before His ascension, Jesus Christ said to his disciples, Go, baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He did not say, "Go and baptize only those worthy of the divine secret." For this faith in Jesus Christ, millions of people have been willing to give up their lives for him, especially in Russia where in the first forty years of the 20th century, around 35-40 million people died for their faith, more than all of the martyrs together in the preceeding centuries.

Brothers and sisters, forgive me, I have gone on long as usual, but I have spared you my posts for some time now. God cannot be found in the head, but in the heart. Rebecca, if you truly are seeking to have Faith, then actively begin to pray to God, asking Him to lead you to the Truth. He is not some distant fiery and terrifying Judge; no, He created you in His own image, and His greatest desire for you is that you come to know His Divine Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and that you be with Him forever in heaven. Just think of it, what a desirous reward for having faith in Him, believing in Him, and trusting Him! Without Him, what do we truly have? Nothing, really; just our weak and lonely and unfulfilled selves. Our Saviour is our Everything, believe me.

Do not concern yourself with such modern issuses as all this business about "rights" and so-called freedoms. Try to approach God with the meekness of a small child, putting trust and, yes, faith in Him. Modern man worries about all too much about such foolishness as "equal rights," equality, "restitution," and so on, not realizing that virtually everything that exists or happens is by God's will. As Jesus Christ tells us, we should not worry because God knows even the number of hairs on our head. When we learn to turn to Him in prayer and with confidence, we will experience a joy that no special occasion or gift or position or wealth or power could ever bring us, and we have the potential of experiencing that joy for all eternity. May God help you Rebecca Duncan, and may He become the center of your life and may He shine His Light upon you, granting you many blessings

With love in Christ our God,

Unworthy
hieromonk Averky

[Owen Jones]

While I agree with everything Fr. A has said above, I would also add that there are levels of faith, faith that we all have and act on reflexively, without reflection or examination. For example, you get up in the morning, and after performing your necessary functions, you get clean, you dress yourself, and make yourself ready for the day. Why? Why bother? What is the point? We act naturally as if our day is meaningful and purposeful. When we put our shoes on, we are acting purposefully. But there is no absolute reason why we should do so. If we were to act on a firm belief that today has no meaning or purpose, then we would not bother with even the most basic, purposeful actions. In fact, we would actively reject them. Instead, we all act purposefully, as if what we do today matters. Not just economically, to supply our basic needs, but because there is satisfaction in pursuing something beyond ourselves. To attach ourselves to something that is meaningful and purposeful.

So if we act purposefully, if we are honest, and if we reflect on that, then there must be some higher purpose than informs and infuses our daily purpose. What is that? And there must be something moving us toward that higher purpose.

Another perspective is the cosmological one. We not only observe the movement of the heavens, we are part of that. We are moving in concert with the cosmos. Are we not moved in some sense to a degree of awe and wonder in the presence of the cosmos? Why should there be a cosmos at all?

Unfortunately, the seeking dimension of faith seems to have been denegrated, by both religious and secular people, to the point that faith is defined dogmatically as something that you have or you don't. And from the religious perspective, woe unto he who has none. And from the secular perspective, dogmatically asserted, faith is something that is for weak people who need a crutch, or something relegated to the "Dark Ages," or something that powerful institutions use to enslave the masses, etc.

It is however quite possible that the true seeker has more faith, experientially, than the person who dogmatically clings to faith to the point where no more seeking is necessary. For the seeker is experiencing something that moves him to seek. And, again, if we are honest, we should ask the question, why am I bothering to even ask the question? What is moving me to ask the question? The problem comes in when the seeker either stops with cheap or infantile answers, or gives up the search because it is too difficult, or there are more immediate diversions and distractions.

The problem with the term seeker today is that it has been cheapened by people who are dogmatically anti-dogmatic. They do not want to see themselves as consenting to any kind of dogmatic truth, and want to see themselves as above that. It's a kind of childish resentment against any kind of dogma, like an adolescent who rebels when his parents lay down the law.

The real challenge is to see how dogma has its ground in seeking and how the two are linked.

There is a scene in the Bible in which a rich man approaches Jesus and asks what he must do to inherit the Kingdom of God. Jesus responds with some demands, all of which he has met. Then Jesus says that he must give all of his wealth to the poor and follow him. He says he cannot do that and goes away sorrowful.

One can interpret this dogmatically by insisting that rich people cannot go to heaven, etc. But that is not really what the story is about. We should view this as a parable to all of us -- do not ever give up the search. Never give up. Do what you have to do. Be willing to go to any lengths. Have courage and be willing to give up what you are clinging to (old ideas?) in order to receive something greater.

The search is a constant in human history, but secular history posits it in terms of planetary exploration, and now interplanetary exploration, or exploring new frontiers of science, etc. And religious people tend to see it in terms of some pilgrimage to a physical place, the local Church, a shrine, or Jerusalem, in order to acquire holiness, but it is really a constant, inward revolution.

This is the true meaning of askesis in our Orthodox tradition. It literally means training, and we never stop being trained. We never arrive at some stopping point. As the saints in the Philokalia continually point out, that is the point where the demon of pride has taken over.

There is a small monastic group in America that has a particular mission to Goths. A couple of them have become devout monks of the order. They take the searching aspect of this nihilistic movement seriously. They take their questions seriously. They take them seriously as an honest, albeit misdirected response to God's pull within their souls to reject worldliness. A good parable I think.

[Mary Stavroula Ward]

Dear Owen,
Thank you for this last post and explication of the levels of faith. I could use this for further clarification to those who don't realize that we all have faith as human beings or we could not and/or would not get through the day. The concepts are very familiar to me, but the way you explained it was very illuminating.

The entire thread and everyone's contributions have been a blessing to me. Thank you.
In Christ,
Stavroula

[Rebecca Duncan]

The Dogma was never a problem for me. I was Roman Catholic. And when I became RC I took all the dogmas seriously, i followed them, and i was conservative within that church. Whether or not it is true or not, my own experience so far with Orthodoxy is one that is different. It has seemed to me that there is more 'leeway' more exceptions, less rules, more bending of them, less definition of the rules, and a general detatchment from the church as a guidance or as a place that you should be at as much as possible. I used to go to Mass like everyday. I would go to confession every week. The catechism was there, people knew what the rules were. With Orthodox I see so much diversity in that...and its lucky if I go to church on Sunday. People don't go there to pray, there's no adoration, or anything like that. It's like the church isn't at the center. I know that this is just my experience...but i don't know any other. My point is, what makes me hesitant about Orthodoxy is that it seems like there's no stability..in the rules, or the life of the church, the way you're supposed to do things. So Dogma isn't the problem for me at all. I was comfortable when it was all laid out...and not so unsure. I guess that's really what I'm trying to say. It's like, with RC, you don't go to Mass, its a sin, and that's written down...but with Orthodox its like...I guess you just rely on whatever you think? I have no idea. I've never heard of a list of sins. I guess its just my Western Perspective...but it makes me uncomfortable. It's like there's nothin to fall back on. No structure. I guess that's why I'm having all these questions and doubts and problems. Like in the RCC..you rely on all the rules and forms...like it keeps you from slipping away. But with Orthodox...its like...well...its all like this weird abstract stuff. Like Theosis and the nous. I'm not saying any of it is wrong at all...i'm just saying i guess right now i don't understand it and i don't fit in with it. I guess this has to do more with why i'm questioning, than the question itself. But I suppose...I feel like an outsider right now...and its like...yeah...i'm 'free' to join the club, but what if you can't understand the rules? or what's going on? its almost like unrecognizable to the Christianity i was familiar with so now im questioning everything...anyways...sorry about the length.

[Melissa]

Dear Rebecca,

In my experience of Orthodoxy, basically everything is available for us to learn, at the right time, and often it's finding the right time that's important.

When I first converted some people encouraged me to go slowly, not reading too deeply, not trying to understand that for which I wasn't prepared. I didn't obey their wise words, and I got confused about some things. I was able to become less confused by slowing down, praying more (the traditional prayers mostly), and asking questions, and I thank God for the support I had in doing so.

In my parish there is a strong expectation that we attend the services, go to confession, receive the Eucharist, participate in the life of the Church, etc. (not that everyone does, but the expectation is there). I count on that structure to help me get through the week. I'm certainly a fearful sinner in these areas, so I don't write from a perspective of having accomplished anything, but for the most part I know what's expected of me, and strive to do it.

I know there is diversity among Orthodox parishes, and that if we ever move and have to find a new parisih, we'll be selective - we'll be looking for a traditional parish, because as Father Averky reminded us - time is short. And I need all the help I can get.
With great affection for all seekers -

In Christ's love,
Melissa

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Rebecca,

To understand what Christ is asking of you, you must do the following: quieten those thoughts & feelings about the Church. They will only be a barrier for what you want (Christ) because He is not your thoughts & feelings. Then if you do this, slowly, slowly the veil will lift and you will see the gift of Christ before you. Fall back on Christ Who waits for you within your heart.

In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

[Maria McDowell]

Rebecca,

I was intrigued at reading your thread of the conversation. I have been Orthodox most of my life, though I have also spent time in other Churches. One of the things I have grown to love about Orthodoxy is the freedom within it. This is not the freedom to do whatever we want, but the freedom to be and become who we are created to be. Orthodoxy has few dogmas...they are summarized in the Creeds. For me, this means that rather than turning to rules, I need to constantly stand in the presence of God and my community, working out my faith day by day. I agree with you that it is much more ambiguous and open-ended. However, I also want to clearly say that I don't think this requires a 'special faith' or 'knowledge.' That is a thread which I have seen on this list, and am a bit disturbed by.

Orthodox, laity and priests, have a range of knowledge. Faith is not necessarily connected to knowledge. It is an experience, but an experience of God. Learning about God is a never-ending process. I like what Melissa said, "everything is available for us to learn...and often it's finding the right time that's important."

Like Melissa, participation in the life of my community is encouraged, though I attend a parish that would probably not be viewed as very traditional by many on this list. What I love about my parish is that God is clearly at work, and people are responding , struggling with God, pursuing God. If that is not happening a parish, traditional or not, the community is in trouble. To be honest, there are many such parishes which appear to lack such a life. Orthodoxy in the U.S. can sometimes look awfully close to an ethnic club. At the same time, it may be that the life is simply no so obvious, but present nonetheless.

This may not answer your questions, as a matter of fact, I am sure that it hasn't. Questions are good, they indicate that we are engaged in the process of our transformation instead of standing idly by. So, for what it is worth, be encouraged. There is beauty and love and transformation and hope amidst the chaos!

Blessings,
Maria

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Rebecca,

You posted that there seems to be a great range of freedom within Orthodoxy, and not the strict adherence to "rules" per se; as you're used to within the faith of Roman Catholicism. One thing which struck me about your post was, that there seems to be a strain of legalism lurking behind your question! I remember that as a Protestant, legalism (though not promoted) lurked beneath the surface of much of their dogma.

In one of his recent posts to this thread, Owen mentioned that there are different levels of faith. Consequently, extrapolating this to people, again you will find various levels of faith. As my former priest once instructed me and a deacon about voice inflection and volume in chanting, people are at various points in their journey. Not everyone will appreciate the same things within a particular service; yet, every celebration of the Divine Eucharist is governed by a particular set of "rules", which the clergy know as rubrics.

Your post also hints at something else which is essential within all of Christianity, and that is what role the human will plays both in salvation and the "fleshing out"/the living, of what we believe. The other side of that coin is the unhealthy(my opinion) number of jurisdictions within the United States. Throw into the mix the vagaries of each particular priest within a parish, or jurisdiction, and whether or not the parish is "new" or "old" calendar and voila, you can account for quite a bit of what you've experienced. A lot of variables, yes, but then I would comment: Make your committment based not upon the varibles you observe, but upon the truth within Orthodoxy. Please forgive my splitting of hairs here, but the truth within Orthodoxy which should draw everyone, is the very life of the Church, our Lord Jesus Chriist. In which case then, as each one lives/flehses out their committment, "church" becomes a vital part of life and therefore, community.
Holy Scripture does in fact point out numerous "sins" Christians are to avoid, and even above that, the apostle Paul points out that within the freedoms we enjoy as Christians, we're to abstain from some of those for the sake of not offending the faith of weaker brethren. We're encouraged to, "...not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, as is the habit of some, but encourage one another, and all the more as you see the day drawing near (Hebrews 10:19-25).Interestingly enough, as you continue to gather together with the faithful, you will learn the rubrics, the ins and outs, the whole point of which should be, holiness of life.

Again, there's no hard and fast rubric/rule that one must possess more than a mustard seed grain of faith, or understand it all(even though understanding what we're gettting into makes us feel more comfortable; which by the way was one of my questions to God, "What are you getting me into"?) The one indespensible rule, obedience, i.e., go where God directs you to go, and do what He tells you. That's the lesson we learn from Jonah, and what each of us are responsible for to God.

the sinful and unworthy servant