Orthodox life

[Denise Marie Johnson]

Dear All,
On another post about the Podvig, Fr Averky said that most/many Orthodox barely manage the minimum for the Orthodox life. What is considered the minimum (not that should be one's goal: "just the minimum").

An inquirer into Orthodoxy
Denise

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ,

Since I am the one who made the statement, I will give you what I mean by "bare minimum," for others might not agree with me. I have always told those in my charge to:

Say morning and evening prayers, faithfully, that is, try never to skip them.
Go to Church Divine services at every opportunity, especiallky on Sundays and Great Feasts, and try never to be late.
Go to confession and communion and have a good relation with your priest, so that he gets to know what is in your heart.
Keep the four Fasts of the Church absolutely to your best ability, not hedging or granting yourself an "economy" if you are travelling or are feeling "weak" and so on.
Every day, without fail, make sure to do spiritul reading, particularly from the Lives and writings of the Saints, especially recent Saints like St. Theophan the Recluse,St. Ignatii Briachaninov, and St, Tikhon of Zadonsk, because they are closer to us in time.
Make sure to read from the New Testament along with your other spiritual reading, for the words of our Lord are salvific. Try to take at least twenty minutes a day to do your reading.
Finally, be obedient to tje laws, teachings and bishops and priests of the Church, for they are of Christ.

As you can see, this "minimum" involves a lot, and yet, for centuries until the 1920's, this was the universal daily life of all pious Orthodox Christians.

Thus, do I find it a little amusing when sincere and well-meaning peolpe talk about "Ascetic Podvig," when fulfilling the minimum of which I speak. is all but too much for them to do. First, they have no idea what ascertic struggle really entails, and second, for most of us, myself included, it is basically beyond our capacity. It is better to strive to do what we can attain and not to push it aside for imagine dspiritual capabilities. In the end, it really is a matter of common sense; Do what you are supposed to do and do not pretend to do anything else, for in the end, you will do not much at all, and your heart and soul will grow cold.

God does not want us to say thousands of Jesus prayers and make hundreds of proastrations, fast until we faint, and neglect our daily lives, for all of these things come out of prideful self-will and are not only of no real spiritual benefit, but in fact are quite spiritually dangerous, for they can lead to spiritual delusions of grandeur., giving us over to thinking that we have reached spiritual heights, and therefore, we are especially chosen by God. Usually this is followed by a terrible fall, leading to loss of Faith and sometimes of the mind.

It is best for us to live simple, humble, and modest lives, following the Golden Path of moderation in all things. I tell people, "Here, I am going to give you a great "podivg:" - Ascetic Struggle for you: try living like a quiet, normal person. If you can accomplish that, you will do just fine."

I hope this will help.

hieromonk Averky

[Denise Marie Johnson]

Dear Fr. Averky,
Thank you for your helpful reply.
I apologize for taking so long to respond. I have been trying to locate sources for books by St Brianchaninov and St Tikhon of Zadonsk. I found a couple of books in my Light-n-Life catalog. Amazon does not have much. I will search out other Orthodox sources. I already have two books by St Theophan, and I must admit he is my favorite.

I have "The Bible and the Church Fathers for the Orthodox", and have been keeping up with the daily readings faithfully.

I will take your advice to heart.
It does help.
Denise
(if anyone knows of a good source for obtaining books by/about St Brianchaninov or St Tikhon, please let me know.)

[Igor V. Faslyeff]

a few questions to father A.
"Say morning and evening prayers, faithfully, that is, try never to skip them. "

is there a difference between saying prayers and praying? Like when I'm saying a prayer that I know very well because I've said it many a time before I often notice that while my mouth is doing the saying, my mind is drifting off onto other subjects. Also in most orthodox prayer books there's several pages worth of morning prayers and even more evening prayers, so you say them all every day, but doesn't there exist the danger of the original meaning of this praying ritual getting lost in the process, and the whole thing becoming just going thru motions that are devoid of any spiritual meaning to the person who's doing it? If such danger exists how do we tackle it?

"Go to Church Divine services at every opportunity, especiallky on Sundays and Great Feasts, and try never to be late. "

keeping one's thoughts in check seems to be even harder during service than during the morning and evening prayer sayings, at least during the latter you have to from time to time get out of the autopilot mode to check you're saying the current prayer right and/or look at how many more you have left to go thru. In a service, especially in a big temple with poor accoustics where you can hear the chanting but can barely make out the words, well do you maybe have any practical advice on how to really get invloved in a service rather than just stand there making plans abt what you're going to do once it's over?

generally speaking, as far as I can see, it looks like your bare minimum advice boils down to obedience to the church and ritualizing one's life in accordance with the church's traditions and rites. and are there any , well, guarantees that doing this bare minimum set will produce in a person the sort of personal change that results in , well, salvation? Like as I see it all, doing all these things is supposed to help people change, become more Christian, now do these things ALWAYS help? regardless of whether the person doing them is really making an effort to change or is just going thru the motions on autopilot? And how do we keep focused on the goals and do we need to be focused on them at all? Any thoughts, comments will be appreciated.

[Daniel Jeandet]

If we read again this part of Father Averky's post -

"Every day, without fail, make sure to do spiritul reading, particularly from the Lives and writings of the Saints, especially recent Saints like St. Theophan the Recluse,St. Ignatii Briachaninov, and St, Tikhon of Zadonsk, because they are closer to us in time."

We see that Father has recommended reading the teachings of recent Holy Fathers whose books teach, in depth and without compromise, how to progress from ritualizing the Churches outward pratises, to developing a deeper and more intimate relationship with God through various techniques of prayer, and more strenuous internal ascetescism and invisible struggle with the passion and demonic influences. Although Father did not add that without applying what we read in these books, the reading is useless and in vain, that goes without saying.

I hope, Father, you dont mind me replying to this post in your defence. I have learned to read your posts very carefully, a couple of times, before I decide what it is you are trying to say. I think you are trying to take everyone into acount, wherever they are at, when you speak in general about Orthodox life.

Forgive me Igor, if I said these things in a bad way, or if I am out of order replying to a post that was not directed towards me. Maybe its against the rules even? Sorry everyone, just in case http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Igor,

I will be happy to answer your question as best I can.

First, it is important to know the context from which this point of "bare minimum" arises.

As I am sure you can tell, we Americans are always too eager to jump into any new situation we find ourselve in and instead of doing the "minimum," we tend to jump ahead, feeling that the basics are just too "simple. We had a thread that someone started called "Ascetic Podvig." Too many of us American attempt to attempt strogii podvigii when we have little basis or experience in the spiritual life., Thus did I suggest that we should learn the "basics" well and heartfully before we can even think of saying molitva Iisusa a thousand timkes a day and make hundreds of pokloni, and fast uhtil we almost faint. Better to live a simple and humble Orthodox life.

As to your observations concerning fulfilling "mere ritual." Well, Igor if a person sees what I have described as being merely ritualistic and repetitive, then of course, he will gain little from them. When we pray, when we go to church, when we do spiritual reading, it is not an intellectual excercise, but a willing desire to be with God and to pray to Him, praise Him, ask Him forgiveness for our sins and to thank Him for His many blessings to us. Only when we open our hearts to God, inviting Him in and then give up ourselvers to Him, will we truly begin to mexperience the spiritual life.

I have been reading my morning and evening prayers for almost thirty six years, and I find them comforting; they esxpress so beautifully my gratitude to God for not taking me in my sinfulness in the night, but has given me another chance. I love the beautiful prayers tom the Most Pure Mother of God, for she is my Mother, and I pray for my Metropolitan, my spiritual fatheer, my family and friends, and all those who have reposed .

In the evening, I thank God for the day, ask His forgiveness wherin I have sinned, and ask Him to grant me another day in order that I might try to repent and live with Him forever.
The prayers to me are not simply a ritualistic repetition of words, but are from my heart, and are said in union with millions of Orthodox Christians around the world. On those occasions when I have missed my prayers, I did not have as good a day, or had a restless night. Prayer is a weapon against the demons, a wall of support, union with others, love for God and our neighbor, a source of peace.

Also, Igor, it is a matter of what we do with our time, We say, "I cannot get up early enough to say my prayers and if I do, I am in a rush! " Well, how many times have we gotten up early because of a job, or we were going on a trip, or we wanted to go fishing or hunting? Hoiw many times do we say, "I am so tired at night, I get really sleepy when it is time for my prayers, so I say just a few, and then go to bed." My dear Igor, I am sure you are a typical good Russian man-how many nights in your life did yopu spend an very long eveniong, and into the night, philosophizing about many things with your friends? For the rest of us, how many times have we closed the bars, stayed up late to watch a movie, or partied with our friends long into the night?

In the end, my friend(s), it is a matter of attitude, and if we develop a Godly attitude, and realize that all good things we have are of God, and given to us by His mercy, despite our endless grievous sins, ingratitude and unfaithfulness, then of course we will find our prayers meaningless and boring.

When in Church, we can look at a particular icon we like, and concentrate on it as we pray. IOf distracted during the service, it is aan oideal time to say the Jesus prayer. We do not need to be "entertained" by the Divine Services, but keep in mind that "liturgia" means the "public worship" of God and even in the Old Testament, God gave strict instructions as how He was to be worshipped, and what sacrifices were acceptable to Him for various needs.

In the New Testament Church, which is the continuation of the Old, Christ is the Sacrifice, and He left form us His Most Pure Body and Most Precious Blood as a sign of His love for us. When we attend Divine services, we should be humbled and grateful for all He has given us.

Igor, prayer is but part of the Orthodox Christian life; our whole lives should be lived in preparation for eternity. Saying the prayers of the Church in unity with others, makes us a part of the living Body of Christ, for we do nothing alone. We are saved together, but we perish by ourselves. And besides, not only should we say the prayers of the whole Church, but we should say our own individual prayers, for God knows what we each are going through. During the day, say short prayers, like "Lord have mercy on me!" "Mother of God, save me!" "Holy Martyrs pray for me!" "Jesus Christ, show me mercy," and so on.
Igor, try not to see the "minumum" as a tiresome effort, but use it as a means to grow in God. May God bless and help you!

hieromonk Averky

[Henry Lee]

thanx for your reply father A., it was very comprehensive. the only problem that still remains is how to stop seeing the minimum as a tiresome effort and see it in its true light. Also for me there's this issue of distinguishing between the work of God and things that come from our nature, fromt he way we're designed (of course our design is the work of God and thus anything that follows from our design is ultimately the work of God as well.) you see our brains are neuron systems and as such one of their basic abilities is the ability to learn and by learning here I mean not just aquiring new information by rather changing, adapting to the envirnment. Neoron systems work in such a way that if you make it repeat something many times it will eventually come to like it. all new things are not liked at first but as the time goes by and you do them over and over again your brain adapts and eventually grows to like them. Now if you go to church and pray over a long period of time praying and going to church will inevitably become an integral part of you, because thats the way our brains work, make them repeat something a lot of times and they begin to like it, new circuts get created and low electricity begins to flow along them, you aquire a new habit. So theoretically people can train themselves to be godly persons. the question then is what's God's part in it? If you do the whole thing yourself? Pardon me my ignorance

Danial J, thanx for your input.

[Melissa]

Dear Henry Lee-

Just a few thoughts - You are clear about our physicality, the neurons and all. We're more than the sum of our neurons, though, and that 'more' may be pretty significant to your questions. We are soul and spirit also. I don't know how to put this theologically, but I don't think God made us only from a bunch of chemicals - a common 'medical model' construct of our bodies that works only in a limited way. He also breathed life into us by the action of the Holy Spirit - I've always thought that meant not only the ability to be physically alive, but to be alive in the sense of our souls and spirits, alive to God, perhaps? So post-Adam and Eve, the fall having been a kind of death, our task has been to get back to the state of being alive to God.

What happens in prayer and in obedience to the Church is perhaps a matter of faith - I believe by faith that I'm not just the sum of my chemical, electrical, etc., make-up, and I believe by faith that the difference is palpable and God-given. I can choose to exercise my will to live with this mystery, gradually living into the answer to it (thank you, Rilke), or I can choose to accept the valuable but I now believe limited Western, medical view.
From my own sinful and imperfect experience, I can tell you that if you allow yourself to pray sincerely, no matter how imperfectly, you will begin to change. You will notice the love for God growing in you, by His grace, and my guess is you won't have these questions anymore. In their place you'll have grief. And you will be flooded anew with the knowledge of His love for you. The key for me is to let my brain grow quiet, and follow Father Averky's advice. Pray, don't take on more than I'm ready for, and be patient with myself and my questions. Perhaps that will help you, also.

God bless you in your efforts. Father and others, please correct me if I've made any errors.

Melissa

[Henry Lee]

Dear Melisa,

thank you for your reply. I do not deny the existance of the spiritual, it's just that I don't see how I can possibly distinguish between the spiritual and the physical aspect of our existance, or if there are some processes going on in my head, of course there will be a physical aspect to them, neurons adapting to new circumstances, but are these physical processes a manifestation of the spiritual work God's doing in me. Of course if we postulate that God governs everything in this world, which seems to be the case to me, then it naturally follows that all the neuron interactions in my brain or any other person's brain for that matter are a manifestation of God's will. Then what seems to be the next natural conclusion to follow from this to me, would be that for each person there's their own personal path thru life that they are each predestined to choose to take, it's somewhat like writing a book in this fashion where instead of plotting you try and describe your characters and then just let them act naturally, then your characters will have free agency but at the same time their choices will be limited by who they are. So you're basically right, Melisa, in that we should pray sincerely, I'd also add that we probably should do other things sincerely as well, after all lying is very dumb in essence since God's omniscient and as such knows all things.

why is it that you say that once I get changed thru sincere praying my questions will be replaced by grief? what will I be grieving over? My sins? Well thanx for your reply again.

[Melissa]

Dear Henry Lee,
About grief -

As I live my life in Christ, trying to live the commandments and the Church tradition as best I can, what I generally discover with sorrow is how sinful I am, how often I fail Him. I can be saved from despair if I remember His love for me, and that He 'didn't give us hearts of despair', but in His grace, gave us the hope of salvation through Christ. So in my grief I get up each morning, remembering that "the favors of Yahweh are not all spent, each morning they are renwewed again. (Isaiah?)" This is not to allow me to be lax and say "I'll be faithful tomorrow"...but rather to inspire me to keep trying to live faithfully. What supports me in this is personal and corporate prayer, liturgy and other services, my priest and my spiritual father, etc.

As I talk with others, their experiences seem similar, although I don't know how universal they are. I know that it makes sense that as I confront my sins, because of my desire to be obedient to and love Christ, I feel grief. It's kind of a joyful sorrow, because in it I'm also becoming more aware of His love.

Now, as we've said, all that can be explained physically with neurons and chemistry, and it's good to know because it helps us make decisions about all kinds of things, including whether or not to see a particular movie, but perhaps isn't so helpful in matters of prayer. Remember, God gave us free will, so it's maybe not as easy as then it naturally follows that all the neuron interactions in my brain or any other person's brain for that matter are a manifestation of God's will.

My suggestion is, know the scientific stuff, and let it slip to the back of your mind. Regard it as God-given (as I think you do), and let your priest help you with discernment - that's partly what he's there for. In time you will be able to make more discernments on your own, if you're doing all the other things we've talked about, but I've learned - always have a trusted priest/spiritual father to talk with, because our culture is very slippery and can get under our skins very easily. Also, the evil one comes in all disguises.
I appreciate the seriousness with which you're addressing this issue, and hope only to support your wish, as I hear it, for clarity. Some of this I hope the Fathers will comment on, because physicality and accountability and Will and predestination (I think this one is not an Orthodox concept) and so on are really theological issues, when applied as you and I have been doing.

I pray always to lead no one into sin because of what I have said.
Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear Igor,

True Christianity and true Faith are not a mental excercise, and your "scientific" approach is going to lead you into very dangerous waters. No matter how educated or smart we think we are, God is all the more so. God does not need our opinion of Him in order to exist. He does not need us-we need Him. He is eternal, while we are dust.

The bottom line, and I do not mean to sound offensive is that you need to humble yourself and go to one of the many monastaries in Russia anf find yourself a good monastic spiritual father and forget your neurons, which at best are finite, and which will weaken and die. It is the product of a good heart and a God-loving soul which is eternal and which will be of God. As I once said to another person on Monachos, if you find praying to God tedious and boring, well then, forget it, and live a life life without God. Don't go to church, don't pray to God or ask His mercy-rely solely upon yourself and your mental processes-try this for a year, or even six month, and then contact me again, for I would be most interested to see how succesful your life has been without God. If a person has never known God, then he can be forgiven much, but once a person has become aware of God and then decides on his own as to who He is and what his relationship is going to be with Him, that is another story.
As we know, it takes much more effort to remain angry than it does to make the peace, so too does it take much more effort in the long run to flee from God then it does to turn and face Him, for when we face God in Truth and humility, He faces us in the same manner. Allowing God to enter our hearts in order that we might know Him and be alive in Him, is not a matter of intellectual exercise, for at our intellectual best, we are still basically nothing. Forget your brain, and open your heart.

Please accept my words with the love, concern, and desire for your salvation with which they are given. I might be faulted by our loving and patient Moderator for giving spiritual or pastoral advice, but in this case, I can do no other.

I will pray more than the "minimum" for you, Igor, and I ask the members of our forum to join me. All of us need conversion, all of us are in need of God's mercy.

With love and concern in Christ,

hieromonk Averky

[Fr Averky]

Beloved in Christ
Daniel J,

Thank you for your good post. You have the gift of taking my poor and simple words and making more sense of them. And, you are correct when you say that I have good reason for mentioning more recent saints. Another great saint to whom all all of us should turn is St. John of Kronstadt, for in his spiritual diary, "My life in Christ," we can open a page at random, and we will find an answer to current problems or sorrows. St, Nektarios of Pentapolis is another saint whose writings can help us. And one cannot overlook the wonerous life of the blind Elder Porphirios, whose spiritual "sight" is truly a marvel of the last days.

I would like to go back, if I may, to my speaking about the "minimum" for prayer. This was given initially as a response as a tendency to seek higher spiritual excercises long before we have even learned how to pray.Now, I would like to clarify, and I beg all of you to bear with me, for as usual, this will not be a short post.

As in all cases, each family, each individual, just as every monastic community has its own ruel as adapted to individual needs. What is important is that we say the prayers that we do with a heartfelt and sincere manner. To rush in order to get through our prayers then become a senseless babble. Even St. John of Kronstadt says that it is beter to say a few prayers well than many prayers poorly.

In monasteries, the morning and evening prayers are read by just few monks on kliros while the rest of the brotherhood stands and listen attentively. On Saturdays and on the eve of Feasts, is read "Pravilo," or the Rule for Communion, and again, anyone who attends need not read them privately. This comes from earlier times when many monks and pilgrims were simple unlettered peasants, so the prayers were read for them.

Carrying on this idea, one can purchase CDs and cassettes of both the morning and evening prayers and the prayers for communion. In the two sources given below, the prayers are read evenly and with compunction.

For the prayers on cassettes, you can contact:

Orthodox Christian Recorded Books
E-mail ocrb@junocom or
online at www.ctel.net/--ocrb (http://www.ctel.net/--ocrb)

They are also availabe on CD from:

Hermitage of the Holy Cross
RR 2 Box 2343
Wayne, WV 25570
online at www.holycross-hermitage.com (http://www.holycross-hermitage.com)

They also carry wonderful hand-made incense, hand made soap,100% beeswax candles, and spirtual books and recordings by the monastic choir, much of it done in ancient Znameny chant. They also carry books by Fr. Seraphim Rose, and Father Alexey Young, ( now Hieromonk Ambrose), Father Seraphim's spiritual son, author of the very fine "The Rush to Embrace," a warning to Orthodox Christians about involvement in the Ecumenical Movement.

Although someone has mentioned this book before, it bears repeating. An excellent book for reading during Great Lent or any other time, as a matter of fact is:

A Spiritual Psalter
or
Reflections on God

excerpted by
Saint Theophan the Recluse
from the works of our
Holy Father Ephraim the Syrian

It is published by St. John of Kronstadt Press and is available at our monastery bookstore: Our S&H is very low.

Holy Trinity Monastery Bookstore
PO Box 336
Jordanville, NY 13361-0036

I am sure it is available at any place which sells Orthodox books such as Life & Light Publishers. Another good book for Lenten reading is the classic "Ladder of Divine Ascent," by St. John of the Ladder, beautifully printed by Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA.

Two wonderful books by St. Theophan the Recluse are: "Path to Salvation," and "What is the Spiritual Life, and how to attain it." Another very lovely book is by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk: "Journey to Heaven," printed here in Jordanville. We are also the publishers of "My Life in /christ." A very interesting book is "The Arena," by St. Ignatii Briachaninov, which although directed to monastics, has much practical advise for the sincere Orthodox Christian. Again, we are the publishers.

Also, I highly recommend the entire series on the life of the Optina Elders published by St. Herman of Alaska Press in Platina, CA, and which we also carry. A very inspiring book is "Man of God," which is about the Wonder worker of our last days, St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, published by Nikodimos Orthodox Publication Society, Richfield Springs, NY And of course. an even greater classic, The Psalter, which again is available from Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, Ma.

We should all take advantage of any opportunity to refresh and soothe our hearts and souls with spiritual reading, for in them we see that our problems are not so new-that many before us have gone through everything we have in our lives and even more-and they lived through it all and their words and lives live on to inspire and console us. Forgive my wordiness, but I wanted to give a few suggestions.

Forgive me if my sugestions sound like an advertisement for my monastery, but we do publish many inspiring spiritual books. Another monastery which publishes wonderful books is St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona. Monasteries have always been a source of spiritual books for clergy, monastics, and laypeople.

Thank you again, Daniel, I always love reading your posts, for they are well thought out, and thoughtful.

Much love in Christ,

hieromonk Averky

[Denise Marie Johnson]

Dear Fr. Averky,
Thank you for posting the web sites and publisher's addresses and names of books you recommend. Some of us do not know where to begin in our readings, which books are best for beginners. I do not look on your posting as an advertisement. I am always happy to add another good Orthodox site to my list of "favorites".
denise

[Henry Lee]

I'd just like to thing Melissa and Father A. and Daniel, for your willingness to help. I've read your comment and now I'm going to take some time to think abt them. Currently one thing that I sort of can't seem to figure out is your seemingly negative attitude to the mind/brain/neurons, scientific, or should I say in my case pseudo scientific, stuff. Preference of the heart over mind. and another thing I sort of fail to understand is father A's comment that God doesn't need us, if He doesn't why did he create us and why did He then become a man Himself to provide for us a way to be reunited with Him again? But onthe whole you're all probably right in that we oughtn't to let ourselves get overwhelmed by all these details abt how things work physically and concentrate on why things are there doing what they're doing (my current answer to this one is because God put them there and set them in motion)
anyway than you'all again.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ
Igor!

Please keep in touch, and know that we will be praying for you. Science can fill many needs, and it can "logically" answer many questions. But science, with all of its infinites, still is finite. Great scientific discoveries are always on the horizon, as God sees fit to reveal them to us. These "discoveries" are but a condescension on the part of God to help men to heal others, to produce heartier crops. more beautiful flowers, better transportation methods, and so on.

We might as,k "What is the primary source of all these wondrous scientific discoveries?" Well, the answer, of course is, God. And we must see that all scientific , medical, and mathematical discoveries proceed out of God's love for us.Thus, Dear Igor, even if we could reduce our thoughts and prayers, or at least their retention by means of your "neurons," in the brain, still they would be but a miniscule aspect of God's love for us. Sad to say, sinful and fallen as we are, how many good scientific discoveries have fallen into the hands of the friends of the Evil One, and terrible weapons were produced by men inspired by hatred for God and their neighbor.

Igor, matters of the heart and soul cannot be reduced to some sort of stimuli to the brain, for if so, we would be like some strange androids, reacting to electrical impul ses. For instance, in the Motherland, Russians speak of "Russkaya Dusha," or "The Russian Soul." How many tiomes have you heard some one sing a beautiful song about "The Russian Brain?" Or we say "On serdyechnii chelovek," or "He is such a heartful person," I don't think it would give the same meaning if we said, "He has such a tender brain" In the life of the Church we dicuss the heart and soul, for how we open our hearts to God and our neighbor, allowing God to enter our hearts, and thereby loving our neighbor as ourselves. That singular love, produced in our hearts, will be the only thing which will take swiftly our souls to God in heaven: all faith, all hope, and all good works, will have been fulfilled ( for they have been fulfilled in the Incarnation) and it will be our love that will be eternal.

Igor, you will never find any of your answers in your brain, or even in your mind. You will only find them in your heart. And when you can humble yourself enough actually beg God to melt your cold heart so that you might know and love Him, so that He will become the Bridegroom of your soul. And when this happens, you will begin to understand why we need Him, and He does not need us. Just ask yourself: "What do I have to offer to God, what aspect of my being would He have need of?" Remember Igor that anything we think we "have," we got from God in the first place and not from ourselves. Jesus Christ said "Without Me you can do nohing."This, Igor, is what all of us have to do, and especially during Great Lent, which is rushing by, let us ask "My soul, my soul, why are you sleeping?"

God bless you Igor, and for your soul's sake, pray, pray, and then pray some more!

With love in Christ.

Fr. A.

[Gilbert Gandenberger]

Dear Henry Lee, it is the consistent answer of "why did God create us if He didn't need us?", that God created us because of His love. He had perfect communion within the Trinity, so was not "lonely". He in turn became man and worked out our salvation for the same reason, because of His love. No more, no less.

Hope this helps!

[Henry Lee]

thank you all for your prayers for me,father A and whoever else is doing it. I personally have now for some time regarded science as a means by which God reaches out to the skeptics. You know like Paul writes in Romans there's evidence in the creation that points to the creator. Thus by carefully studying the natural world around us one is sooner or later bound to arrive at the conclusion abt the reality of God. More beuatiful flowers and better meanst of tranportation are just nice spin-offs. Although of course different scientists have different motivations.

Neurons are not mine, all people have them. There once lived a famous doctor in Russia who practiced during WW II and who was also a priest, I've forgotten his name unfortunately. Being in the war, this man got to treat a lot of people with brain injuries, bullets, fragments of explosive devices etc, so he made heaps of observations of the behavior of people with different sorts of damage to their brain tissue, he saw cases where people with half their brain tissue blown away were still able to function adeqately, or some alien peice of material would get stuck in the brain, the doctors would operate on the person and merely pull the thing out and the person would remain fully functional. Of course such phenomena could have been put down to some sophisticated system of back up circuits which probably plays a part in it too but the priest doctor's main conclusion based on these observations was that brain appears to be a sort of conduit between the soul and the body, there's parts that are in charge of the different body functions, like breathing, these work in the background, yet there are huge portions whose function remains a total mystery up to this day. One thing you're certainly right abt though, that these material studies of the brain and its function can only take us this far, now how far? and why I am so hooked up on all these brains and neurons currently, and also on psychology. Imho it's important to know our bodies' finite, mortal reactions to emotional and/or rational simuli, imho it can be hellpful to get to know better the android your soul is piggy riding, so to say, so as to be able to distinguish between your finite emotions and the transendental(sorry just can't seem to find a better word here) movements of your immortal soul. It all may sound stupid of course and probably I'm heading down a blind alley then just pray for me that God helps me see ASAP there's nothing donw there. My reason for getting into all of this is my encounters with people affiliated with religios organizations other than the Orthodox Chruch, for example LDS chruch missionaries that clall themselves elders, these guys are very emotional, or at least they seem to appeal to people's emotions a lot, or I was once at an evangelical church meeting where the service seemed to be put together in such a way as to take the participants on an emotional roller coaster of sorts getting from them the right reactions at all the right places. Part of the reason why I'm drawn to the orthodox church is that its services seem to be so emotion free, despite of what I said in one of my earlier posts abt spacing out during services ornot hearing all the words, they still seem to adress the soul in a more direct fashion, sort of bypassing the neuron android, problems remain of course but my sins now are laid bare rather than being shrouded in an emotional blanket. Russian soul, to me it revolves around unresolved contradictions of the human nature, around our capacity to be monsters and angels in one wrapping. Nowdays unfortunately it's getting drowned in vodka and yes we say Russian soul rather than Russian brain because our brains mere conduits. sort of reminds me of this old poem abt a homely but very lively girl where at the end the author asks, what is beuaty, a nice looking vessel with nothing but emptiness inside or the fire flaming in the vessel? Father A., thaqnk you for everything, you're like that bookie from Miller's Crossing that kept saying to his killer, Look into your heart, look into your heart. Toruble is that at the present moment my heart is in a kind of desolation and the answers that come out of it are all goomy and highly pessimistic, hopefully it's a passing phase, I'll try to pray more follwing your advice. Of course I have nothign to offer God, no questions abt that, also what do we have? As I see it we have nothing cause as time goes by things get taken away from us or destroyed or we change so that we no longer want them, so we have nothing at all, even the neuron androids we're piggy riding are falling apart by the minit. you know, Alexandr of Macedonia, the great conqueror, according to the legend, shortly before his death,he asked his servants to make two holes in the sides of his casket and pull his hands out palms up thru these holes so that as he was being carried to the burial ground the people seeing him off could see that he was leaving this world exactly as he had come into it, empty handed. Of course God doesn't need us to exist, but maybe there are some other things? After all He did creata us for some reason and then He even became one of us and died on the cross for us, now if He just didn't need us would He have gone to such lengths to make for us a way of breaking thru back to Him?

ps. People don't say he's got a tender brain yet, but have you noticed the phrase me and her had chemistry is getting more and more popular, the good ole Corinthians kind of love is getting taken out of the equation altogether.

thank you again everyone for your replies

[Arsenios]

Fr. Averky wrote:
________________________________
In monasteries, the morning and evening prayers are read by just few monks on kliros while the rest of the brotherhood stands and listen attentively. On Saturdays and on the eve of Feasts, is read "Pravilo," or the Rule for Communion, and again, anyone who attends need not read them privately. This comes from earlier times when many monks and pilgrims were simple unlettered peasants, so the prayers were read for them.

Carrying on this idea, one can purchase CDs and cassettes of both the morning and evening prayers and the prayers for communion. In the two sources given below, the prayers are read evenly and with compunction.

For the prayers on cassettes, you can contact:

Orthodox Christian Recorded Books
E-mail ocrb@junocom or
online at www.ctel.net/--ocrb (http://www.ctel.net/--ocrb)

They are availabe on CD from:

Hermitage of the Holy Cross
RR 2 Box 2343
Wayne, WV 25570
online at www.holycross-hermitage.com (http://www.holycross-hermitage.com)
_____________________________________

Father Averky Bless!

Our Church's Deacon Nathaniel reads the evening preparation prayers for Holy Communion after Vespers on Saturday night, and many listen attentively and thereby do not have to recite them later at home, but still have to recite the morning preparation prayers after morning prayers...

I went to the Holy Cross Monastery's site, and they sell two CDs that recite both the daily prayers, and the preparation prayers.

Were these CD's made for us to use instead of doing our own personal recitation of our daily prayers and the prayers of preparation - Where we simply stand before our altars attentively while they are read for us on our stereos from the CDs?

And do the CDs also do for us the morning and morning preparation prayers [for Holy Communion]?

I must say, Father, that this is very attractive to me - for while on the down side, it takes from my shoulders the cross or doing these prayers myself, on the other hand, it lends monastic credence to a pilgrim still struggling with prayer in his prayers of preparation, and indeed is itself a monastic practice, whereby I have the benefit of praying with monks who are doing the praying, even if only by recording, and entering into their compunction, and not relying on my own [lack of] compunction...

And as well, it seems to be a step, however small, toward monastic committment...

Am I understanding you aright here, Father?

Thank-you for all that you do for us here...

Arsenios

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear All:

Please note, I had some trouble with the link given for the Orthodox Christian Recorded Books. The one that worked for me is: www.ocrb.org (http://www.ocrb.org).

A question too. If one were to use the cassette tapes for morning and evening prayers, naturally it would be most appropriate to be praying while standing in front of the icons of Jesus & Mary. Would be inappropriate to use the cassette tapes while taking walk? (I have a tendency to trip over things and crash into mailboxes while walking and having my prayer book in front of me!! :-) But seriously, would that be considered inappropriate?

~Trudy~
Forgive me a sinner

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Igor,

I have been reading your & Fr Averky's posts for the past while with great interest. It is difficult to see through the thick veil of what is worldly; Christ's teaching which forms the basis of the teachings of the Holy Fathers is that pride and sin caused our fall into a materialistic & fleshly way of seeing things. Our vision of reality in consequence is actually un-real or like a drunk; we are just so used to it we take it for normal. One of the efforts of Great Lent is to at least partially restore our vision.

As you wrote certain things about the 'material man' I was remembering an idea I have often had as a priest: what if certain physical things we take as being causes are in fact the effect of spiritual realities within ourselves. For instance, many have claimed to have found physical signs of criminality, addiction or homosexuality in the brain that cause such behaviour. What if these signs were rather the physical effects of sinful behaviour rather than the other way around?

With your posts and my musings in mind I heard a remarkable program on our national science program on Saturday about Placebos:http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/03-04/mar06.html. Apparently scientists and psychologists were amazed to discover from scientific investigation that placebos can have the same physical effect as the actual medication; but (and this is crucial) the patient must first have been informed what the intended effect of the real medication was. So this only begins to hint at the incredible spiritual force that God created us with, that in fact has a priority over the physical aspect of the human.

In Christ- Fr R

[Henry Lee]

Dear Fr Raphael Vereshack
what you suggest abt our spirital health or sicknesses showing in our physical bodies seems highly likely to me personally, if you think abt the gospel healings performed by Jesus Christ , He often told the people that He'd healed that it was their faith that had healed them, like that woman with a hemorrage who tocuhed His cloak, thinking to herself if she could only touch His clothes she'd be healed and she was healed, Christ then tells her that her faith has made her well. Or the examples of saints going without food for prolonged periods of time. And it's not really just in christian related context that such examples can be found, the placebo phenomenon that you quote, or the famous saying from Hagakure; if a samurai were to have his head cut off, he should still be able to perform one action with certainty. So I think I agree with you on this one. In light of this part of being in church is abt getting back to this spiritual thinking and learning to subdue one's body to one's spirit. The obvious trap here is to attempt to do things that can only be done if your body is in submission to your spirit without actually having such submission, attempting to do spiritual things in the flesh, going for great "spiritual" records without first taking up Christ's yoke and becoming meek and humble at heart. Such attempts are apparently doomed to end in disaster, imho. That's why I think it's important that we be able to see if our efforts and desires are in flesh only.

[Daniel Jeandet]

This article I have posted below is very interesting, although most people I showed it to simply refused to believe it. I guess God does whatever He wants, with whatever He wants. This does present a problem for science, but I heard it said that the laws of nature are simply what God wants to happen 99% percent of the time. Neurons and stuff, I find fascinating, it is miraculous the way our brains and the rest of material creation work. But the fact that they were created out of nothing is surely much more miraculous, just the very fact that we exist! Isnt it amazing how we take that for granted!

Anyway, onto the interesting article,

--------------------------------------------------

Is A Brain Really Necessary?
By Richard Milton
Alternative Science.com
9-22-3

Do you really have to have a brain? The reason for my apparently absurd question is the remarkable research conducted at the University of Sheffield by neurology professor John Lorber.
When Sheffield's campus doctor was treating one of the mathematics students for a minor ailment, he noticed that the student's head was a little larger than normal. The doctor referred the student to professor Lorber for further examination.
The student in question was academically bright, had a reported IQ of 126 and was expected to graduate. When he was examined by CAT-scan, however, Lorber discovered that he had virtually no brain at all.
Instead of two hemispheres filling the cranial cavity, some 4.5 centimetres deep, the student had less than 1 millimetre of cerebral tissue covering the top of his spinal column. The student was suffering from hydrocephalus, the condition in which the cerebrospinal fluid, instead of circulating around the brain and entering the bloodstream, becomes dammed up inside the brain.
Normally, the condition is fatal in the first months of childhood. Even where an individual survives he or she is usually seriously handicapped. Somehow, though, the Sheffield student had lived a perfectly normal life and went on to gain an honours degree in mathematics.
This case is by no means as rare as it seems. In 1970, a New Yorker died at the age of 35. He had left school with no academic achievements, but had worked at manual jobs such as building janitor, and was a popular figure in his neighbourhood. Tenants of the building where he worked described him as passing the days performing his routine chores, such as tending the boiler, and reading the tabloid newspapers. When an autopsy was performed to determine the cause of his premature death he, too, was found to have practically no brain at all.
Professor Lorber has identified several hundred people who have very small cerebral hemispheres but who appear to be normal intelligent individuals. Some of them he describes as having 'no detectable brain', yet they have scored up to 120 on IQ tests.
No-one knows how people with 'no detectable brain' are able to function at all, let alone to graduate in mathematics, but there are a couple theories. One idea is that there is such a high level of redundancy of function in the normal brain that what little remains is able to learn to deputise for the missing hemispheres. Another, similar, suggestion is the old idea that we only use a small percentage of our brains anyway -- perhaps as little a 10 per cent.
The trouble with these ideas is that more recent research seems to contradict them. The functions of the brain have been mapped comprehensively and although there is some redundancy there is also a high degree of specialisation -- the motor area and the visual cortex being highly specific for instance. Similarly, the idea that we 'only use 10 per cent of our brain' is a misunderstanding dating from research in the 1930s in which the functions of large areas of the cortex could not be determined and were dubbed 'silent', when in fact they are linked with important functions like speech and abstract thinking. The other interesting thing about Lorber's findings is that they remind us of the mystery of memory. At first it was thought that memory would have some physical substrate in the brain, like the memory chips in a PC. But extensive investigation of the brain has turned up the surprising fact that memory is not located in any one area or in a specific substrate. As one eminent neurologist put it, 'memory is everywhere in the brain and nowhere.'
But if the brain is not a mechanism for classifying and storing experiences and analysing them to enable us to live our lives then what on earth is the brain for? And where is the seat of human intelligence? Where is the mind?
The only biologist to propose a radically novel approach to these questions is Dr Rupert Sheldrake. In his book A New Science of Life Sheldrake rejected the idea that the brain is a warehouse for memories and suggested it is more like a radio receiver for tuning into the past. Memory is not a recording process in which a medium is altered to store records, but a journey that the mind makes into the past via the process of morphic resonance.
But, of course, such a crazy idea couldn't possibly be true, could it?
Alternative Science Website http://www.AlternativeScience.Com Copyright Richard Milton © 1992-2002 Winner of more than 70 AWARDS for site excellence http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm

[Archimandrite Gregory]

Henry, Do you know what has moved me most and been my inspiration during 40 years of my monastic life??? Those faith-filled men and women who have not questioned God, but have humbly accepted what He has sent them and what His Church has taught them.

First there was my grandmother, who humbly buried SEVEN of her ten children (and even a few grandchildren) and NEVER even for a moment questioned God. In fact, when I asked her how she did it, she didn't even understand my question...and simply responded with tears that, "They were never mine Gregory...they were always HIS; He simply loaned them to me...and I'll see them again one day, God willing!"

Secondly there was my mother, who taught me how to LOVE the Lord and RESPECT the Church, because it is the Body of Christ. Until my father's conversion, she hired a taxi every Sunday morning and every holyday for 17 years to make sure we were at Liturgy on time. Once I had a cold and wasn't feeling well, she lovingly stuffed an aspergum in my little mouth and assured me that I'd be MUCH better after Holy Communion (and I WAS!). On the morning of my ordination to the Holy Priesthood, we arrived at the Cathedral and got out of the car...she brushed off my cassock and said, "Now stand up straight and try not to look too pleased with yourself." That was my advice from mom before being ordained!

Thirdly, My dad, who lovingly accepted the Lord into his heart and his life at an early age and confirmed that faith in entering the Church after 20 years of marriage and who lived that faith in action everyday of his life! When financial success always alluded him and he had just barely enough to take care of us, he never questioned God's wisdom and he became THE most humble man I've ever met! He's my hero now and he always will be!

Fourthly, My first 'Batushka' (affectionate for, "Little Father"). Father Gavril was the most humble of married priests. He grew up in the Carpathian Mountains and loved God with more power and strength than I've ever seen in any priest! He received NO SALARY for all the years of his priesthood...he worked as a humble carpenter bulding houses until he 'retired.' He served his entire priesthood in ONE tiny parish and served on every feastday (small and great) even though there was often only Matushka to respond to the prayers! He always accepted what the Church taught and lovingly did what was done by generations of Orthodox priests before him...and it made him into a humble Godly man who could move mountains with his prayers! He reposed during the first year of my priesthood, at the age of 100 plus one month...he had waited for years for me to be ordained.

All of these people and others too made it EASY to respond to the Lord in my own life. They made Him 'real' to me. They made Him flesh for me. They never questioned the traditions or teachings of the Church (it wouldn't even have occurred to them to do this)---they lived their faith amidst very difficult and trying events and circumstances---and NEVER questioned the Lord or His Church---and THEY BECAME SAINTS and heroes for me and many others tto, who had eyes to see! They all did as Father Averky has suggested, the 'bare minimum' but DAILY with GREAT love for their entire lives! They accepted what the Lord sent them...carried heavy crosses...prayed faithfully...loved deeply...wept often, but quietly...and lived HOLY and GODLY lives.

May we all do the same!

In His great love for us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who prays for you!

[Henry Lee]

Daniel J.
thanx for the article, I remember reading abt doctors coming across a normal person who later turned out to have virtually no brain at all in a Stephen King novel, but turns out Stephen King must have been referring to a real life incident.

Archimandrite Gregory , thanx for your tribute to the people who made God real in your life. I can only wish I were like them.

[Daniel Jeandet]

Ive been thinking about neurons and stuff all week since you posted Henry, and here are my thoughts about this.

Clearly, repeating an act over and over and over is going to result in some kind of physical change in a person’s organism. I smoke cigarettes and this has almost definitely resulted in some kind of change in my neural pathways or the balance of my brain chemistry, but the most obvious sign that my inner disposition is affecting my outward form is that every hour or so my entire physical organism undertakes certain actions that facilitate the smoking of the cigarette. Because I associate brain with mind, I go on to compartmentalise the different aspects of my entire being and fail to realise that the inclination of all these different aspects finds its expression through my entire being in an ongoing process of becoming (whatever that means). That’s because I’m stuck in a realm of knowledge that is earthly and material. If I were to do Gods will and conform my actions and thoughts to his definition of reality instead of my own, He would be able to define my actual being, in all its aspects, and I would partake of Him and His creation, know it and experience it, according to its true definition. Instead, because I do my own will, I find myself existing in a world that lacks substantial reality, since sin is not a real thing in itself, but a denial of reality and a willing darkness. I then limit myself to a tragic, fragmented, groping in the world of the senses. As my self-will infects all the powers of my soul (being, as they are, entirely connected), I no longer know the world and myself according to God’s definition of these things, but I am involuntarily limited to my own fantasies about them. If I were humble and always remembered God, I think he would fill my being with His light, I would no longer be determined by my engrained neural pathways and fleshly desires and limit the creation to my opinions about it, I would be free of all these things, they would be subject to me and God Himself would grant me a true perception of His creation and I would see everything with the clean eye of my heart as well as with my senses. I would be always becoming more like Him, less and less limited, unless I deprived my self of the reality He was granting me by forcing it to conform with my own definition of it, cast back out of the garden and again restricted to the garments of flesh and the divided information from my poor animal senses.

The soul is not separate from the body; it is the other side to its reality, like an image on a computer screen and its corresponding file on the hard drive. A better analogy is the interference pattern encoded within a holographic film and the three-dimensional image it projects. I used to think that we were stuck in the image and that our souls were the invisible encoded information that was projecting our bodily form, but now I tend to see myself as being stuck in the encoded information and deprived of the full reality of the three dimensional image (What exactly am I trying to say?). Imagine giving someone a copy of a computer game and he took it home to play. Instead of following the programmer’s instructions and running the game, he tried to read through the code and work out what the game was himself. He would be reading through millions of lines of code, trying to work out what kind of world it was and what he could do in it, instead of just playing the actual game and trying to complete it, he thinks he can derive a superior type of knowledge about it by applying his powers of reasoning in trying to fully decipher the inferior form it takes. He might even die before he works it out. He might end up thinking that playing the game and completing its objectives merely results in a corresponding change in the boring lines of code he has limited it to. He might find some very interesting and useful information in the code, and his reading through it might even lead to his playing the game the way it was meant to be played and see the code in its proper context. That’s how I see science. I’m not saying its bad, it’s just an inferior type of knowledge that does provide real information about the Creation, but on its own, it can mislead us into flawed ideas about our situation.

When I thought about writing this, my notions were very clear and it seemed so simple to express. Now that I have tried to write it down, I find it lacking. I really know what I want to say; I just can’t say it properly. I wasn’t trying to say anything about anyone, just wanted to expand the scope of the discussion, looking for language to express what I believe.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Daniel,

Yes that's amazing about no brain and still very much human. Doesn't this confirm the teaching of the Holy Fathers that the human being is directed by soul & spirit? As you ask, "where is the seat of human intelligence? Where is the mind?"

Many times in visiting those in hospital who are dying you can see amazing evidences of what you point out. At St. Tikhon's Monastery in the U.S. the bishop used to send me to visit the sick & dying. There was a very pious Roman Catholic fellow who every Sunday morning dutifully drove his Russian Orthodox wife to the Monastery for Liturgy before leaving for his Catholic Mass and then returning to pick her up afterwards. This fellow then developed a serious illness and was taken to the hospital where he was dying. The bishop sent me to visit him but afterwards he slipped into a coma. After he had died his wife told me that in the middle of his coma he had sat up in the bed looked at her and told her 'give the Russian books to the Russian priest' (he meant me); the man then lay down and was again comatose. So where does human consciousness lie?

By the way I treasure these two books to this day- they were actually old copies of Arseniev & Zernov in English.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Henry Lee]

Dear Danial, that was some interesting piece of writing, your confession that you know what you want to say but once typed your words still seem lacking goes to show that perhaps the old saying that a thought expressed is a false thought is perhaps true.
so if I understand correctly what you were trying to say in this post is that it's unwise to use the approach in which in order to learn abt something we break the phenomena up into its different aspects and then try and learn all we can abt each one of those aspects but never really learn abt the thing in its entirety. And as the result we end up being confined to a kind of carnal knowledge which appears very cool and thorough to us but whcih in fact is a very poor representation of reality? Was that what you were trying to say? If so then you're certaintly correct imho. The trouble is as I see it that this same approach is being used more and more by us, Christians whereby becoming like God and beginning to see things eye to ey with Him is getting replaced by learning abt God's attributes, as well as momorization of the right answers to the right questions and performing the right rituals quite a few of which seem to work in a manner similar to that in which superstitions work. Of course all this it's just my personal impression from my personal experience and probably things aren't as bad after all(see Archimandrite Gregory's post above), and these impressions all come of the "abomination of desolation" in my own heart.

I take it what you wanted to say by the computer game example is that we ought to play by the rules without questoning them. The difference to ur reality is that our game is supplied without the source code, so you can't look at it, and with a bunch of manuals on how to play it, each one of them giving a different set of rules. Some people choose for themselves one of the manuals and keep to it, others dismiss all the manuals and prefer the way of experimenting with the game to find out abt how it actuallly behaves and/or to test whether any of the manuals have valid information. Of course there's the creator of the game, soem charecters claim that the manuals that they have come directly from the creator, others claim they know the creator personally, still others go as far as to deny the existance of the creator, even though the game's very existance is supposed to lead people to think that there has to be one. Of course in a situation like this the most desirable course of action to take is to somehow get in touch with the creator and ask the creator how to play the game properly. But it's not that easy cause you're in the game and the creator, well he manifests himself in different ways, most of the time by changing the code so that things start happening that defy some of the rules of the game known to the charecters. There's always heaps of all these character that will be telling you all kinds of stuff abt the creator, what sort of person the creator is what he expects of you etc.and it's different than your usual computer game because you're not pressing the keys and moving the mouse around on the pad, you're actually part of the game, and you don't have the option of looking at the code unless the creator chooses to show you some bits of it and while the so called physical rules are pretty obvious in most cases, the other rules, theones that have to do with the inner workings of the charecters are rather obscure. Scientists are actually these guys that try to experiment with the game to find out more abt how it works, but they're at the mercy of the creator like everyone else whether they like it or not, and they never get to see a single snippet of the actual code unless they are shown it. Now what can we do as charecters of this game? Some manuals tell us that by following certain rules or rather practices we can evolve in such a way, and our inituial code allows us to do it, that the creator will then be able to change our code without demolishing us and then turn us into a new kind of charecters, the kind that will be able to partake with the creator in the new game that's fixing to replace the current one. anwyas I think I could go on forever with this computer game analogy, but I'd better stop now before I lose touch with reality altogether.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Henry,

In the Prayer of St Ephraim which we say during the services especially during Great Lent we hear the words, "O Lord & Master of my life (Gospodi i Vladyko...)a spirit of ...idletalking give me not (duch..praznoslovia nye dazhd mi)".

Here the code is pretty stright-forward; to control our selves in speech and in thought also.

Through the Church (services, sacraments, tainstvo) & the Holy Fathers (departed and among us), Christ clearly as gives us the soul-saving teaching of self-control and simplicity. No confusion here.

What if we take this incredible energy God has given us and throw ourselves into asceticism (directed safely of course by a trusted spiritual father) and the battle against our sinful passions? Then we would see clearly the reality, the only reality that is not fantasy, that God in His love is trying to offer us.

In the love of Christ- Fr Raphael

[Daniel Jeandet]

Well, I dont want to be a part of anyone losing touch with reality, but I want to point out that in my game analogy I was saying that perhaps a better way to understand what it means, to be living in a fallen world, is not to look at it as if we are in a game, but cannot read the code. I was suggesting that we are stuck looking at the code, deprived of the actual game itself.

So when you say - "The difference to our reality is that our game is supplied without the source code, so you can't look at it"

Im saying, maybe restricting ourselves to the senses/logic world, is to be stuck with only very limited portions of the source code, imperfectly grasped and understood.

[Henry Lee]

Dear Fr Raphael Vereshack, thank you for your post and for reminding me of the futility of idletalking. although, me personally, I don't see in this particular piece of code a command to control the thoughts, although such commands can be found elsewhere of course (encouragment by Paul in one of his letters to set our minds on heavenly things rather than things of this world). I also have a question, why do we have to throw ourselves into asceticism? I'm not asking for the apparent answer actually contained in your post, to see the world as it really is. Isn't it true that what is good for one person may even be harmful to another, aren't we to choose the path of humbleness and meakness rather than the one that appeals to us as one being considered the most superior by those around us? I have nothing against asceticism and I highly respect and venerate those people that have been able to aquire the Holy Spirit on this particular way, but at the same time I suspect that for example me, I'm not at this point able to truly see the real essense of this way, the greatness of this way that I tend to notice is human greatness, Guiness book of records kind of greatness and were I to throw myself into it as you put it, where would I end up? Going after records, possibly damaging my body and maybe even talking to daemons in angels' guises and thinking abt myself as the chose one or some such thing.

Dear Daniel, thanx for your clarification abt your game analogy. I personally see things a bit differently (see my prev post). My view is that we are playing the game, perhaps a better computer analogy would be a game corrupted by a virus, and we are corrupted by is as well so that even when we're exposed to the original rules of the game and/or portions of its orignial source code we can seldom make sense of it because our own source code has been altered by the virus and the creator doesn't want to just erase the game, istead a cure process has been initiated and is now underway. Or probably it's like being drunk or stoned, which is one more step further from the reality, in a condition like this people see things differently, I even remember actually hearing the term spiritual drunkenness used by a preacher I know.

[Melissa]

Dear Daniel J.,
Your last post (107) clarified for me what you were trying to say. And I think you're saying something I also believe, and that Father Raphael has been trying to help us see (oops, maybe on another thread!)- that the world of sense and logic is the fantasy, and the world of soul and spirit, lived through faith, is real. He says it much better than I; sorry I can't find that particular post to quote it here.
Melissa

[Henry Lee]

Dear Melissa,
thanx for this post, seems like this is part of my problem, I'm reluctant to let go of logic.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Henry Lee,

I've not followed you rconversation with Fr. V., so take this for what it's worth.

In the realm of the spirit;(which as I've said somewhere else, governs the physical realm), there are principles which remain true regardless of what profession, or manner of life a person leads. One can be a monk, a neurosurgeon, a priest, or a professional athelete, without prayer as a part of your life, your life will be very rough, and like the waves of the sea. The goal of the hesychast, the hermit or cloistered nun is no different than it is for either you or I. We are all called to be "perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." In this drama although the names have changed, it's not to protect the inocent. Asceticism, hesychasm, spiritual warfare, it is all the same thing: To be perfect, to share in the divine nature, at some point in our lives each of will have to do pitched battle against the world, the flesh, and the devil in some area of our live. There is no way around that truth.

I personally will probably never be a great person, as you consider greatness (where then is your reward, for how important are these things with God?), so I struggle with wife, family, job, and all the areas in which I long to hear at the judgement, "Well done thou good and faithful servant enter into the joy of thy Lord."

the sinful and unworthy servant

[Daniel Jeandet]

Mellisa, just to clarify, the world of the senses and logic is not a fantasy, it is real. We experience them in an unreal way when we overlay our conceptual images of things with our own definitions of them. Orthodoxy does not teach, as some religions do, that the creation is an illusion.

It seems to me, although I really dont understand it iether, that there are some mis-conceptions about what asceticism is. Outward, bodily asceticism is a support and framework for the real activity that must be taking place within the soul. Certainly the most humble and meek people could be saved and progress in the spiritual life without outward asceticism, but the humble and meek would still labor in fasting, vigils, prostrations etc. becasue they would consider themselves debtors and having no virtue at all before God. They would also want to be obedient to the Church and thier guide. For the rest of us, outward practice, be it keeping the fast, a few prostrations in addition to our usual prayers, cutting back on things like listening to music or going to the movies and stuff like that, this is all, I believe, asceticism. Saint maximus says the goal of practical philosophy (his term for the first stage of spiritual life) is the transcendence of pleasure and pain.

If anyone didnt get to read it, the comments that Owen Jones made in the thread about Alchaholics Anonymous were very interesting. He said that an AA meeting is a pure form of asceticism. there are no prostrations or sleeping on the floor at an AA meeting I presume. Its all about the inner work, the old man. We have to start with our bodies and thier connection to our environment because that is where we have trapped our selves and given our heart away.

[Melissa]

Daniel J. - RE: your first paragraph of post #110 - of course; I didn't intend to suggest otherwise, forgive my sometimes clumsy statements. Sometimes when I try to speak about more abstract issues I don't make myself clear.

If you're saying that as we live Orthodoxy, our lives become an ascetic path as we bring the light of Christ to bear on more and more parts of it, which calls us to a more obedient response, I'd like to think that was true. I've made a tiny start, but I sure don't feel like an ascetic. Seems like something more is needed, before one can be considered an ascetic, although I guess any step in the right direction could technically be called asceticism.
May God continue to bless you, as you share your insights with us, which I always appreciate.
Please pray for me, a sinner.
Melissa

[Daniel Jeandet]

I didnt think for a second that you thought the creation did not exist, just making sure no-one else did.

A tiny start is the only one we can make I think. Like what Jesus our Lord said about the mustard seed and what he said about moving mountains. I think the mustard seed is the beginning of believing that the mountain of our engrained ignorence and passions will not always hide that little seed. I feel like, my will is divided. I am a mountain of pride and passions, but somewhere Christ has planted a seed. I confess, I have done some very stupid things, some terrible experiences and dwelt in utter delusion alot of the time as a result of a warped idea of asceticism, but I thank God that he has always provided the means for my repentance and humbled me (shocking falls and frightful trials). The mountain cant move the mountain. The seed grows in its own way, in its own time.

In my life, a few little things that I have read or someone has told me have never left me, and if I forget, God gently reminds me. One of them was something from "A night in the desert of the Holy Mountain", a book about the Jesus Prayer that I would really recommend to people who have a blessing to say this prayer. This applies to any prayer though. What the hermit in this book said, was that when we pray, we must always keep in mind that we only do the human part and God does the divine part. He talks about just focusing our mind on the words of the prayer and letting God do everything else. This might seem like just a small thing, but I think it encapsulates the Orthodox life (as this thread is titled). This little teaching has the been the most important thing for me in my life recently. As long as we are trying to do the changing, or rely on our own power to bear the Cross we have, or generate spiritual feelings to feel satisfied with our efforts, we stifle the seed that contains its own life, and the fullness of its future growth. I think that things are quite simple and beautiful in the end.

[Melissa]

Daniel J. - Re: your reference and comment: we must always keep in mind that we only do the human part and God does the divine part. He talks about just focusing our mind on the words of the prayer and letting God do everything else. This might seem like just a small thing, but I think it encapsulates the Orthodox life (as this thread is titled).

What strong, lovely imagery that brought to mind, descriptive of the ever deepening faith to which I aspire.

Thank you, Daniel, for bringing this to my attention.
Melissa

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Daniel (J.),

Thank you for your recent posts, which have been very interesting and enjoyable to read. With due deference, I would like to comment on a passage from one of your most recent, which I quote here:


It seems to me, although I really dont understand it iether, that there are some mis-conceptions about what asceticism is. Outward, bodily asceticism is a support and framework for the real activity that must be taking place within the soul. Certainly the most humble and meek people could be saved and progress in the spiritual life without outward asceticism, but the humble and meek would still labor in fasting, vigils, prostrations etc. becasue they would consider themselves debtors and having no virtue at all before God. They would also want to be obedient to the Church and thier guide. For the rest of us, outward practice, be it keeping the fast, a few prostrations in addition to our usual prayers, cutting back on things like listening to music or going to the movies and stuff like that, this is all, I believe, asceticism.

There is a degree to which what you say is correct. It is all too easy for the outward 'acts' of asceticism (fasting, standing, vigils, prostrations, etc.) to be viewed as, collectively, the terminus ad quem the whole ascetical endeavour is aimed. 'We fast to gain mastery over our bodies' is a statement I hear time and again, but it is a statement that is only partially true. Christian ascesis is an holistic ascesis -- intended to purify the whole of the human person, body and soul, which is corrupted through our sin. When ascesis is taken to imply solely an outward or physical activity, when it becomes but a bodily practice, then it is no longer a genuine Christian activity.

However, that being said, it seems to me that we should use real caution with such phrases as one in particular from your post, which I trust you will not be offended if I focus on here:


Outward, bodily asceticism is a support and framework for the real activity that must be taking place within the soul.

Perhaps you can see that as a corrective for certain, errant views such as those I've described above, this statement has validity; yet in its own right as a Christian anthropological belief, it has serious problems. It tends to change the focus of Christian purification to the opposite extreme: it is now not the body which is the (sole) locus of our activity, but the soul. We must be very cautious of ever separating body and soul such that one is where the 'real activity', as opposed to a secondary or supportive activity, of the Christian life takes place. The Christian mystery of the human person is of the indissoluble connection of body and soul in the human individual. There is no person whose soul and body are not intimately, inextricably intertwined. The state of the soul effects the state of the body, and that of the body the soul -- and neither is more important than the other. This is the great message of the Incarnation of Christ, for whom it was not the soul alone that He came to save, but soul and body, flesh and spirit.

The Fathers often speak of the 'crushing', or the 'defeat', or the 'taming' of the body, but we should carefully read and absorb the whole thought of those that do. The body is not an evil to these, nor even a 'sub-good'. It is, however, that aspect of our being which is often most in distortion and most of fallen mastery over our persons. We succumb, many of us, to the desires of the fallen body far more often --and perhaps far more dramatically-- than we do to those of the fallen soul. Yet ultimately, it is body and soul which shall be brought forth at the resurrection. We will not simply stand as souls before God. And so the body, even as much as the soul -- both of which are the image and can be the likeness of God -- must be the focus of Christian asceticism in all its forms, even among the most pure, the most holy.

INXC, Matthew

[Daniel Jeandet]

Thankyou Matthew, thats true. You are a good moderator. Thanks for the website.