Orthodoxy and the Twelve Step Programme

[Isaac David]

Is the Twelve Step Programme, as originally used by Alcoholic Anonymous and subsequently adopted by other groups for people trying to overcome addictive behaviours (steps listed here (http://www.kenpeterscenter.com/the12.htm)), compatible with Orthodoxy?

Isaac David

[Owen Jones]

It's compatible with Orthodoxy in that there is nothing in it that specifically conflicts with Orthodoxy, and it does not claim to be a substitute for Orthodoxy. It takes no religious position, not for dogmatic (i.e. relativistic) reasons, but for practical reasons, so that AA members do not argue theological issues among themselves. There are plenty of Orthodox members of AA, myself being one.

[Isaac David]

Thank you for your response Owen. I have just joined a group which uses the 12 Steps. I am just wondering if someone who is living an Orthodox spiritual life could dispense with the 12 Steps because a faithfully lived Orthdodox Christian life will achieve the same end (self-control) in the course of aiming for a different end (eternal life in Christ), so to speak. I ask out of ignorance, not because I have some axe to grind.

Isaac David

[Melissa]

Dear Isaac David,

If I might interject a note -

The 12 Steps have worked so well for so many people, partly because of the mutual support and accountability of others going through much the same thing.

Perhaps you could consider supporting your spiritual life through increased attendance at services (this is a great time of the church year for that, anyway), frequent conversations with your priest, maybe asking for a prayer discipline during Lent that would further support you, and attending AA meetings with the frequency that is most helpful.

Both now, and especially after a recovery is well established, others can advise you about Orthodoxy as psychotherapy, because it truly is the best and deepest form of help you can find, and of course, the One leading you the most trustworthy.

With prayerful and confident hope that the help you are seeking so sincerely will bear the fruit of both physical and spiritual health -

In Christ's love - Melissa

[Owen Jones]

I can only speak knowledgably about the issue of alcoholism. In that regard, the answer to your question is, yes and no. Maybe one person can. Maybe another can't -- or won't.

But why be a statistic?

There is also a possible false premise behind your question. The problem of alcoholism is not simply one of loss of self-control. For a true alcoholic, it is impossible to drink a small amount of alcohol and stop, because a small amount triggers a physical craving that normal drinkers don't have. If it were simply a matter of practicing self-control, an alcoholic could learn to drink one drink or two and then stop.

The real problem for the alcoholic who has stopped drinking is not that he has no self-control. It's that he forgets. And so after a period of time of successful sobriety, he simply goes back to drinking, thinking that it wasn't so bad. That's where AA comes in. It continues to remind the alcoholic of who and what he is, where he came from, and where he will go back to if he picks up that one drink. He hears that again and again, if you don't mind the pun.

It's not likely that he will hear that same message again and again in the Church. And the other problem in the Church is that there is so much nascent gnosticism in our thinking that we think that if we just say the right prayers often enough, something in the very nature and order of reality will change. And so frequently, the alcoholic will trade AA for Church and not long afterward he will be drunk again. I would not expect a diabetic to stop taking insolin just because he is Orthodox; nor would I counsel an AA member to stop his meetings just because he's Orthodox.

Finally, the major cause of relapse for the alcoholic is his resentments. They overpower his memory of how bad it was. The Church, unfortunately with its low standards today, is not likely to provide the kind of intense, ongoing battle against resentments, that the typical alcoholic needs to stay sober.

In the last analysis, let's not forget that AA is a gift from Christianity to the hopeless alcoholic. Prior to 1935, there was almost no hope for the chronic alcoholic, from church or any kind of secular treatments.

[Owen Jones]

AA can be a very frustrating experience for a devout Christian. But there are many opportunities for Christians to serve Christ in unsavory circumstances, and working with rough-speaking alcoholics and addicts is just one of them. A Christian AA member is doubly blessed because he is given an opportunity to save lives and help others find God. They can also witness to their own faith, just not in the AA meeting itself, unless done with subtlety.

[Arsenios]

Owen Jones wrote:
>>>For a true alcoholic, it is impossible to drink a small amount of alcohol and stop, because a small amount triggers a physical craving that normal drinkers don't have. If it were simply a matter of practicing self-control, an alcoholic could learn to drink one drink or two and then stop.<<<

My father was one of these - One small drink and he would go on a drunk that would end some 3-5 weeks later, where he either stopped, or died... He could not take even one small drink...

He quit in 1950, working on the railroad, and in the late 50s, he was working the hump [making trains] on a really hot day, and a brakeman came up to the locomotive with an ice cold bottle of orange pop, and Dad asked him if he could have a drink of it, and the brakeman handed it up, and Dad downed about half of it, and then realized it was 2/3rds or so vodka... And he was radically buzzed the rest of the day, but managed to make it through his shift...

He went home and to bed, and got up the next morning and went to work, with no desire for another drink... And came to what I now regard as a very Orthodox conclusion:

"It is not the drink that triggers the reaction that is irresistable unto a drunken spree, but it is instead the DECISION to take a drink that is the culprit..." And when we look at how we make that decision, the interior lying to ourselves that we do, and these happen with any sin, then we can see how it is that consent is the culprit... Our consent...

He had 3 or 4 small drinks after that - dinner liquers - across the next 25 years of his life, with never a desire for another... But he knew clearly that he had to stay away from drinking, and he did...

I too have suffered addiction... And cannot claim the credit of my father's recovery - My recovery was utterly by God's grace... And none by my own efforts at all...

If you want the 12 step program to work, there is nothing to even compare with Orthodox Christian discipleship to utterly assure success... It is quite simply the very best ever - End of discussion period!! How could it be otherwise??

Our parish offers 5-6AM Matins 6 days a week, plus Vespers at sunset, plus Sunday services, and if you do all these, plus the regular prayers, plus your normal work, there simply is no room for addictions... Putting on the Life of the Church is the best cure ever, and the 12 step program will, I should imagine, eventually be left behind, under the spiritual supervision of one's spiritual father, as the sparks of discipleship are fanned into the flames of faith...

And least that is how it looks from this one sinner's very early perspective...

Arsenios

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

I was very moved by the description of how George's father 'beat alcohol'. The conclusion your father reached, "it is the DECISION to take a drink that is the culprit" leads me to convey my similiar conclusion. I am no expert on addictions or the 12 step program. I have had spiritual children afflicted by addictions; those who were healed thru the '12 steps' those who were not. I agree with Owen that it's not just an issue of 'pull up you bootstraps' and try harder. I have also seen a church method that seems to follow the same way of looking at things, simply piling moleben upon moleben. I came to the same point as many of you: why doesn't all this work?

In today's world we are taught that the will is just some force like a car which you turn on or off. As I dealt with the frustration of addictions (and deep-rooted passions) I was helped tremendously by the vision of the Holy Fathers; or what could be called 'Patristic anthropology'. The will is inherently connected to moral desire, it is always attracted to what is godly or towards sin. Sinful desire corrupts the will & introduces a destructive element into it that distorts it; thus the problem of addictions is not healed thru will power, it is healed thru the will being re-born after a period of repentance. This I believe fits the point of George's fahter; it also fits in with the fact that many defeat addiction after reaching rock bottom; after tasting death enough times they no longer desire it but rather life. As Christ says, "where your heart is there will your treasure be." As long as we love the taste of death & the high it gives (and we must stop fooling ourselves that we don't; when we really hate it we will stop) we will indulge in it.

In Christ- Fr R

[Owen Jones]

Yours is a perfect analytic understanding, Father imho, but the problem is really a practical one, as is the solution. The alcoholic does not respond to analytical explanations of his predicament. The alcoholic himself can have a perfect analytical grasp of his dilemma, and still continue to drink.

The Bible and the Church contains everything that an addict or alcoholic needs to be treated and healed. The problem is that addiction has its specific aspects -- extreme self-will manifested as denial, coupled with forgetfulness. The denial seems to be best punctured by someone who has been there. The addict is an expert at presenting himself as being OK, even superior, or especially superior. He comes across as very sincere. Every "recovering" addict knows that that is an act. It's hard to hide your addiction from another addict. While everyone else wants to think the best of the addict, and hope for the best, and assume that when he says that he has stopped, or is committed to stop, that he is telling the truth, when the "recovering" addict or sober alcoholic knows that that is all a hoax. So the best person to puncture through that wall is another alcoholic or addict. Often priests fail at this, partly because they are too kind.

But when the addict stops, how does he stay stopped. Despite occasional case histories, the tragic fact is that about 98% of the addicts and alcoholics who go through treatment and stop successfully for a period of time eventually go back to it, and it becomes worse. Just attending services and hearing sermons, that may never confront the specific demons of the addict, often results in a kind of overpowering forgetfulness. The addict thinks he is now OK because he attends lots of religious services, and so he can now go back and manage his drinking. The result is frequently death. AA keeps the members in a state of constant recollection, which is an Orthodox doctrine to be sure, but it has to be specific. There's something about alcoholism that is very specific. It's not just a kind of generalized lack of morality, or self-control. It's as specific as a person who has diabetes and needs to be treated with the same specificity. Does that mean that no one can be transformed and maintain a happy sober life after years of chronic alcoholism without the benefit of AA? Of course not. This happens all the time. But for many otherwise hopeless cases, AA is the only thing that works. And if one has been exposed to AA, why risk being a statistic by quitting AA and relying just on worship and prayer, without the constant reminder provided by being around other AA members?

Also, the AA member, if he is honest, owes a debt of gratitude to AA for saving his life. Is that something he should walk away from, just because he is now well? No, he has an obligation to help other alcoholics who are still suffering. This is the greatest good work he could possibly perform in life, to give the gift of life to the still suffering alcoholic. Yet many get to a point when they feel they have gotten all they need from AA, and they leave, leaving AA with a dearth of people will long term sober experience as guides.

But these are all controversial questions that people differ strongly about. The initial question was if AA is compatible or not with Orthodoxy. I would argue that there is no intrinsic conflict, any more than there is an intrinsic conflict with going to a hospital to be treated for cancer.

[Janice Chadwick]

Conciliar just published a book on this topic about a year ago. It is called "Steps of Transformation: An Orthodox Priest Explores the 12 Steps" by Fr. Meletios Webber. He was a substance abuse counselor before becoming a priest. It's geared more towards alcoholics, though I think it may apply to other addictions as well. It costs about $15. You can get it from Conciliar, Light and Life, and Amazon.

[Melissa]

Dear Fr. Raphael and others -
I have a question - I love and find agreement with what you have said in recent posts re: the Church and addictions, and I believe that addictions become physical before they are "truly addictions" - in other words, not only spiritually is it not a matter only of will, but also physically. The chemical changes are well documented medically, yet I don't fully subscribe to the 'disease' concept of addictions - we are each accountable for what we take into our bodies and as we accept that more and more, we are able to begin to overcome the addiction.

My question is, is this view necessarily at odds with the views posted above, most recently at least in part summarized in Fr. Raphael's post #80. It seems that my clients who choose AA, and are supported by a faith that they may be struggling with but is none the less a force in their lives, ultimately recover more deeply, healing many wounds in the process of confronting and overcoming their addiction.
I'm interested in other people's experiences and knowledge, to aid my poor spiritual undestanding, which will then hopefully enhance my work with others.
Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear Owen,

Thank you for your good words which come from personal experience. Personally, I do not see the Church as being "gnostic" in its aiding a suffering person in the way She is expected to do, that is by the Holy Mysteries and byprayer. . I know few priests in our Church who would not suggest the !2 Step Program, or pyschotherapy.

When I lived with Archbishop Alypy, a man clealy suffering from mental problems would frequently call Vladika and beg for help. Finally, Vladika told me to write an official letter to the poor fellow, telling him to seek psychiatric care, because the Church could not really help him until he received help for a much greater problem. Surprizingly, the man did go for care, and after a year, returned to the Church after realizing that his problem had never been truly spiritual. Vladika said to me, "Centuries ago, when poor people suffered from mental problems, it was thought that they were demonized, and especially in the West, those poor souls were subjected to terrible treatmant or thrown into places like Bedlam where they got even worse. God has granted us psychotherapy and medications, and we must make use of them."

As to a person's "resentments," again I do not accept that the blame can be put on the Church or Her priests. Alcoholics are not the only people with resentments, for I daresay that we all have to admit to having them from time to time. When people have come to me and confessed their resentments about their spouse, their children, parents, co-workers and so on, I always urged them to find a time in which without anger they could discuss those resentments with those whom they thought had caused them. I have always warned that if a person cannot bring his resentments to the surface, they will in time harden his heart and kill his soul. I do not know what your experience has been in the Orthodox Chuirch, but as a layman, I always found our priests, especially the old ones from Russia to be very compassionate and sympathetic, and would suggest various ways I might receive help. I believe that Orthodoxy by its nature, not being bound up with the idea that man is basically evil and faces an angry God, but sees God as loving and forgiving, would try very hard to help people overcome their resentments, or any other sin. If a person resents God, the Church, and its clergy, then what can be done?

I have a very good friend and benefcctor who has been in and out of places like the Betty Ford Center for years, and if he would put more faith in God and the Church, I am sure he would at least be more stable. For all of us, the Church is an anchor, keeping us stable in a terrible world. As we have discussed on other threads, the average parish priest is most desirous of leading his flock to salvation, but if he dare tell someone that what they are doing is not good for them, they are met with resistance and "resentment." I would say that at least 80% of most people today feel that they can handle their own problems.,and many rarely turn to thieir priest even though he is willing to help them.

I have experienced alcoholism in my own family, for both of my older brothers had this problem and my older brother died at the age of 48, having drunk himself to death, and the oldest of us died alone last year after years of heavy drinking. Both had at one time been wealthy and successful business men, but alcohol cost them their wives and children, their fortune, and then their lives. Sadly, neither one of them had God in his life, so no one could blame the Church.

Sincerely,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Isaac David,

Listen to Melissa's words, for they are very helpful. While the 12 Step Program is what a lot of people need to remain stable, as Owen describes, do not cheat yourself out of the help that you can receive from our Saviour and His Church. For instance, there is a beautiful Akathist to the Mother of God which is specifically for those suffering from alcoholism, and which has helped many . Alsothere is an extremely rare icon of the Mother of God called "The Comforter of Those in Distress," which renewed itself in Russia, and huindfeds of people battling alocoholism and drug addiction have been aided by saying the Akathist to this icon as well. In the end, no passion can ever be overcome without God's help.

The perfect combination: worldy and Divine medicine- you cannot go wrong. As you attend your meetings, just keep in mind that you are an Orthodox Christian, and as such by your prayers and good example, as Owen indicates, you will be able to help others Pray, and pray night and day, and God will not refuse you, this I can tell you., for I know of what I speak.

Myay God richly bless any of those who have been brave enough to face this problem. I am only sorry that none of us in my family could convince my brothers to seek help, but their denial and pride kept them from saving their own lives. For the sake of my brothers, I will fervently pray for all of you.

In Christ,

Father Averky

[Isaac David]

Dear All

Thank you for your contibutions to this discussion. I only want to point out that the group I'm attending is not an AA group - I am not an alcoholic, nor am I dealing with any kind of substance abuse issues. In fact, the group I'm attending is a Christian group dealing with a particular issue in its members' lives (I won't go into detail) and using the 12 Steps to help. We don't have to deal with the physiological aspects mentioned by Owen. However, I am still left with the niggling sense that for someone in my position, while the 12 Steps may be a useful 'method' to incorporate into some 'treatment', the Orthodox spiritual life pursued wholeheartedly may be just as 'successful', if not more so. Owen uses the analogy of someone suffering from cancer seeking treatment from a doctor, but, if an Orthodox Christian had a terrible temper, would he be better off attending an anger management course or should he be following the guidance of the Church and purifying his heart from the passion of anger? Or would he find it useful to attend the course as a first step while concentrating on the longer task of purification at the same time?

I came to Orthodoxy because I saw that its vision of Christian life was much deeper than in my previous church. I am seeking, above all, the Kingdom of God, and using a 'method' which may deal with one particular personal failing strikes me as possibly falling short of that glorious goal. My particular burden is bound up with the sin which is common to humanity. Apart from this one thing, I also suffer from pride, vanity, anger, impatience, conceitedness, laziness, neglectfulness, lust, greed, love of pleasure and many other things which impact in one way or another on the problem which is being addressed by this group I attend. I come to the Church and to Jesus Christ for healing of all these things.

Sorry if I ramble, but I wanted to make clear that I was not really asking specifically about AA, but about the wider user of the 12 Steps in a setting which is not about substance abuse.

Isaac David

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. A.,

There are no Orthodox Churches in my area, so when I speak of Church, I'm sometimes using the term generically, and there are some pastors in our area who preach that AA is demonic. The Big Book of AA says that AA members will benefit if they seek out religious support and develop their newfound faith in God religiously.

I do not wish to blame anyone for anything. It is simply a fact that in 2004 America, the typical Orthodox parish is not as rigorous in the application of the more practical aspects of the Gospel, such as confession and forgiveness, than is the typical AA meeting. That's simply an objective comparison, not blaming anyone. There will be exceptions to every generalization, of course.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Melissa,

Yes I also have a lot of problem about going too far on the 'disease' concept of addiction; basically at its most extreme it seems to rule out any human responsibility. In any case at its deepest level we know as Orthodox Christians that all sickness is a manifestation of the power of death; and death is caused by sin. If I understand your question Melissa about the physical I would say that regardless of the cause we are obliged to pray for Christ's help; so the will as a moral force does come into the equation.

I do not see how in any way we can say that the restoration or healing of the will is not involved in healing. That is precisely why faith is of great help in overcoming these addictions; healing is not only a set of guidelines as to what to do or not to do; mainly it is doing those things that aid the spirit so that it be immersed in the grace of Christ Who restores all things. And of course this involves the physical as well as the spiritual. As for falling back into the addiction: this is just like other sins & passions; the will is crippled & often we do fall again. None of this denies the usefulness of AA or any other therapies; it simply affirms our willing participation as Orthodox Christians.

Lastly Owen- the analytical is neccesary before the practical; in our spiritual life we do this and there could not even be an AA without this; otherwise we are like boxers fighting the air.

Dear Melissa & Owen; I find that St Paul addressed our problem precisely and showed us the method for healing; not as if it is like mathematics (1+1 always=)but rather part of a long-term struggle:"For the good that I wish I do not do; but I practice the very evil I do not wish...Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom.7:19,24-25).

In Christ- Fr R

[Melissa]

Well, Isaac David, I can see that I read into your first posts and the responses to them something that you had not actually said. I'm sorry about that, please forgive me.

About the issue as currently stated - my clients and also friends who have tried to apply the 12 Steps concepts to issues other than addictions have met with undependable results - some good, some not.

While as you have heard from me and others AA is not incompatible with Orthodoxy, a process of discernment, hopefully led by your priest, would probably be very helpful and wouldn't raise these questions for you. Why use even a very good program, if it's not needed for its stated purpose? Because, I agree with you that there's nothing better FOR YOU than to live an Orthodox life, guided by your priest and spiritual father, growing increasingly more devout over your years of confession and repentance, and being healed from the pains of life by the love and mercy of Christ. Whether or not that's what the group wants to pursue is another matter.

Good luck, Isaac David; may God bless your efforts.
Melissa

[Melissa]

Dear Father Averky,

Could you please tell me where to find the Akathist to the Theotokos that is for alcoholics? I know someone who would benefit greatly from it.

Also, is there any chance that the icon you mentioned will be produced by Holy Trinity? Or is it available elsewhere? I've been thinking of it since you mentioned it to us, and now I see it mentioned again above.

Melissa

[Fr Averky]

Dear Owen,

I thank you for your kind answer. I am so sorry that there is no Orthodox parish near you. For some reason I thought you had mentioned something about your parish, I see that I did not understand what you said.

After I posted last night, I talked to a few fellow priests about the Program, and the main reservation that they might have is not the program per se, but many, many who go into the program after awhile allow it to become a surrogate "religion" for them. And, never having had anything to do with AA myself, still, I would venture to say that each meeting place would have to have its particular dynamics./

In any such organization, a leader who is especially charismatic can have a powerful effect on others. There are always those who are very "needy," and they can begin to rely too heavily on the leadership and organization for support, morally and psychologically.

Because of this, an Orthodox Christian must keep in mind that while AA can be a real life-saver, he also needs to firmly hold onto his spiritual life and his life in the Church. As in every other aspect of his life, his base muist always be his Orthodoxy. The Sacraments of confession and Holy Communion will be his Divine medicine, as well as seeking counsel from his priest. For those AA members who do not have God in their lives, one can only pray that sobriety will bring them closer to God.

Dear Owen, I have to admit that the Orthodox Churches in the US are sadly lacking in programs which benefit the poor and the suffering. I do think that in the last few yers, there have been small but solid signs of spiritual growth and renewal in Orthodoxy in the US. In Russia, such programs are springing up all over the country at the behest of the Patriarchate.

As to Churches lacking in "confession and forgiveness," since I do not understand exactly how you mean this, I hope that you will explain your sentiments to me, that I might learn from your observations concerning something about which I know nothing-the benefits of AA. Thank you for your help in advance.

God bless you! Have a fruitful Great Lent, and please forgive me for the many times that because I did not really understand your words, I sinned by losing patience with you and judging you-I am truly sorry.

Humbly,
hieromonk Averky

[Isaac David]

Dear Melissa

The fault is probably mine in that, in the original post, I referred to AA without making it clear I was concerned about other addictive behaviours. Forgive me for misleading you. And thank you for your kind encouragement.

Isaac David

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. A,

Our parish is in Georgia, about 25 miles away, which is no big deal for us, but, as I said, there is no Orthodox Church where we actually live, or in our county in South Carolina, and most people where I live don't know what it is and have never heard of it.

AA is somewhat cultish, or can be that way, and many people do indeed use it as a religious substitute. But why? First of all, many if not most people who come into AA are completely destitute spiritually, do not believe in anything, have no religious orientation, and many these days in our secular society never have had. When AA literally saves their lives (AA does not claim to save souls), that creates a bond, and an obligation to help others, and that is usually based on attending more than one meeting per week, perhaps seven per week, sometimes more. So the devotion, commitment, exposure, and rewards from AA are far greater than most people have experienced in Church, if even they have ever had any exposure to Church. (I'm not talking about Orthodoxy here, I'm talking about ANY church). As for Church members who come to AA, most recommit their devotion to their Church in our area, but I live in an exceptionally religious area as compared to the rest of the U.S., and the "white" world for that matter.

Sadly, there are many people in AA (as in society at large) who have a strong resentment against Church and any organized religion. Partly this is due to the typical alcoholic's defiant attitude, which does not magically disappear once he stops drinking. But it is also due to their experience, that the Church did not help them, would not help them, or could not help them, whereas AA did. And they were accepted in AA regardless of the life they were living.

So the concern that some priests and ministers might express, that AA members use it as a substitute for the Church, while understandable on one level, perhaps stems from a lack of knowledge and appreciation for what the alcoholic has gone through, what AA has done for him, and just what AA is all about.

It would be good if priests got out and about more, attended a few AA meetings now and then (at open AA meetings all people are welcome), and got more exposure on this problem, which is probably his largest pastoral problem in his own parish in any case, yet buried beneath a surface veneer of normalcy. I have heard a priest say that Greek Orthodox Christians cannot become alcoholics because of the Holy Mysteries. This is an unfortunate example of the kind of gnosticism which, in our day and age, is easy for any of us to get trapped into. I don't know what the alcoholism statistics are among Greek Orthodox Christians (depending on how one defines the term), if indeed any such studies have been done, but I can assure you that there are some. Among Russian Orthodox I am sure it is higher. And among Orthodox who are Inuit, higher still.

I have read something about a Russian priest who has a mission to alcoholics and is incorporating AA into his work. I know a priest in the U.S. who attends the AA meetings held in his parish.

All AA is is a simplified, pure form of asceticism, far more rigorous than anything practiced in any parish that I know of, without any dogmatic requirement. While that alone offends certain Orthodox sensibilities, it is really our fault as Christians that AA is not closer to us than it is. AA is not permitted to go out and promote itself, so it is really up to the Church to extend the hand of Christ to AA and to AA members. I could give my witness to a Church group as an alcoholic, but I could not represent myself as a spokesman for AA. Nor can I promote AA in public. Nor can any AA member. Which is one of the secrets to AA's success. And AA is voluntarily poor. And we do not accept any outside donations. We don't accept endowments. We cannot get into the "treatment" business. Everything about AA is designed to make the AA member more humble, more a servant of God to his fellow man, without any public recognition or expectation of reward. AA members are typically a rough, gruff crowd, but there are a lot of hidden saints in AA, and I believe God founded AA and has blessed AA, despite the fact that we do not recite the Creed at our meetings.

(I suppose I am promoting and defending AA here, which means I am crossing the line on our own Tradition of anonymity, but perhaps it will anonymously help someone on this forum who needs help!!!).

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Fr. Averky and everyone:

Please do not read this email as anything but as being informative to someone who may need the information. That is solely the purpose in sharing this. Not to promote myself or pat myself on the back, for God knows my sin and unworthiness.

There is a "sister" program to AA called ACOA, which means "Adult Children of Alcholics." It too is a 12 step program and teaches/helps adults overcome the effects of being raised in an alcholic home and help people change the destructive behavior they learned in the home. It is supposed to be anonymous as well. This program saved my sanity and helped me break the alcoholic addiction into which I was falling. It showed me how the alcoholic house I grew up in helped to develop destructive behavior in myself. And how I was passing those poor behaviors onto my children. It showed me how to change, how to be a better parent, and how to stop the destructive behavior I was engaged in and passing on.

Although ACOA programs are not religious, many people bring their faith to the program. I saw many people become people of faith through the sharing of others that were there.

The Protestant church I was a part of at the time was very, very supportive. Many knew of my struggle. The pastor was helpful as well. It was the support of the church who encouraged me to pray, supported me in prayer and encouraged me to be in worship on top of the ACOA meetings that helped me get my head and heart straightened out.

God worked through these people and the program. God's love was ever present. If He had not been, I would have lost my faith. But as always, He works through all things for His Goodness and Glory!

Please forgive me any pride that may come through in this email. That is not my intention.

Humbly in Christ, Trudy

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. A,

I response to your above post, The typical format of an AA meeting begins with readings from the AA "Big Book" about how the program works, which can be distilled as follows: find God, clean house, help others. Then a daily meditation is read. Then the group either hears a speaker tell his personal story, or there is a group discussion on a topic directly related to alcoholism and sobriety, or if someone has a specific problem related to drinking, the group will try to respond. Typically newcomers will complain and talk about all of their problems, or other people and events in their lives, and the AA "oldtimers" respond by sharing their own experience, will try to reorient the thinking of the "newcomers" to begin trying humility and patience for a change, to work hard to forgive people who have hurt them, to pray for people they are angry at (not just once, but for a long time--on a daily basis). And the importance of confession, in depth -- including a complete life inventory -- followed by a regular daily self-examination and confession to God for our daily faults and shortcomings, and the importance of helping other alcoholics. Most AA principles are observed in the breach, because alcoholics act like pre-adolescents -- vain, narcissistic, self-conscious and self-centered, defiant toward authority, irresponsible, quick to anger and resentments, and filled with fear and self-loathing. But because of these extreme "character defects," the AA discipline is required and the old timers are very severe about it with newcomers -- in a loving but very blunt way. The message is, if you want to die in alcoholic misery, then that's fine. Go right ahead. But if you don't, then listen and do what AA tells you to do, to the very best of your ability. There is no in between. The discipline that is taught (not always followed very well) is probably more rigorous than that of all but the most strenuous of monasteries.

[Fr Averky]

My Dear in Christ
Owen,

I cannot thank you enough for your clear and thoughtful answer, for it gave me and I am sure, others, a far better perspective in regards to AA. As I already mentioned, I confess ingnorance, but I can also say that I have never been against. it or any programs which can be helpful to those who are suffering. Many times I have sent couples for counseling or young people to pychiatrists, for I told them that their problems were way beyond my ability to help them. Further, I do have to confess that generally, Orthodoxy in this country is not mindful of the needs of so many suffering men and women, especially its own.

I have a man who is my mechanic and from whomeI have purchased two cars. David is one of the most honest, fair, kind and thoughtful men I have ever met. A few years ago, his son got into an auto crash, and his best friend was killed, and he had to spend some prison time. At first, my friend's Evangelical Church was very sympathetic, and the pastor raised money to help him. Then, one Sunday, when he arrived for the evening service, a small group sent to speak to him, told him that it had been decided that it was because of his sinfulness tht all had gone so badly for him. As you can imagine, he has never returned.

Again, thank you for such an enlightening and helpful answer. God bless!

Sinful
hieromonk Averky

[Arsenios]

I do not remember if this title came up during this discussion, but it sure showed up at our parish bookstore: "Steps of Transformation" by Fr. Meletios Webber, and specifically addresses the 12 step program and how to make it a part of one's Orthodox faith... [At least, I think that is it's focus - I really haven't read it, so I could easily be shooting blanks in the dark - I only perused its covers quickly on the way out the door at closing... And that is my take so far at first blush...]

Arsenios