Orthodoxy and humour

[Isaac David]

An Anglican evangelical told me recently that he once attended a prayer meeting where somebody began a prayer, "Dear Lord, thank you for the rain. But Lord, haven't we had quite enough? Could you stop it, please?". Everyone else in the room burst out laughing. From this he had learned that it was OK to laugh when praying, because "God has a sense of humour."

I've been Orthodox for only two years now, so I have much to learn, but what I have learned so far suggests to me that this kind of levity is inappropriate. Indeed, as far as I can remember, in the whole of the Old and New Testaments, the only person who addresses God with any kind of inappropriate familiarity is Satan in the opening chapters of the Book of Job!

Humour has its place - I've seen it on these boards - but this comment made me feel uncertain. What do others say?

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Isaac,

Such a 'prayer' I believe is wrong on at least two counts: 1)it lacks the sobriety of true prayer. How can we pray in this way when we read in Isaiah the prophet that when he saw the Lord surrounded by the seraphim (Is.6) he cried out, "woe is me for I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips..."(Is.6:5)? God has not changed His nature from the Old to the New Testaments; indeed we use the very words from this chapter of Isaiah in the Divine Liturgy, "holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts..."(Is.6:3). 2)Such statements as 'God has a sense of humour' truly are a kind of blasphemy for they presume to ascribe to God the most fallen of human characteristics. It is sad that we often hear such statements, 'I am sure God will forgive...', 'God won't mind if..'; with complete lack of sobriety & fear of God, He is supposed to be as light-hearted about our salvation us we are.

Of course this does mean things in the Church must be 'doom & gloom; there is a Christian peace & joy. But if we are humourous (again with sobriety) why not make fun of our own big egos and foibles rather than the things of God?

In Christ- Fr R

[Isaac David]

Dear Fr Raphael

Thank you for your clear answer. I too find this sad, especially as I was previously an Anglican and still have many friends in the CofE who subscribe to such beliefs.

Isaac David

[Fr Averky]

Dear Isaac David,

I agree with Father Raphel's words. Of course, there are those timee, at picnics, at a party, or when some incident takes place that really makes us laugh it is alright to be mirthful At the same time, It is never appropriate to laugh at another, to laugh at anything that is impure, and to mak fun of things which are by their nature are quite serious, and most importantly, are of God. Never is laugh -provoking words acceptable within the sanctuary of any church. Even the word "sanctuary" has as its root the Latin word "sanctus," which means "holy," and as such is a special place set aside for the solemn public worship of God.

About two years ago around Christmas, I was at our local Catholic store to purchasd a fine rosary for a good friend of mine.

As I was looking at the display case, a woman around thiorty or so and asked the young woman behind the counter if she had the picture of the "Laughing Jesus." "Imagine," she sqid," "My fifth graders do not think that Jesus had a sense of humor, and she looked at me and smiled broadly. "I am trying to tell them that of course He laughed, that He danced, clapped and sang in Cana, and while He and His disciples walked the dusty roads, He led them in skipping and singing!" Again, she looked at me as if expecting me to be nodding and smiling in agreement. (poor woman had no idea to whom she was speaking).

I stepped a little closer and said, "I am sorry, but I can in no way agree with your idea. When Jesus Christ became Man, He did so because mankind had become so evil and was so far from living with the fear of God, by the will of His Father, He came to save all of us, to suffer and to die for us. We can see from the very outset of his public service to His Father that the Scribes and Parisees thse proud and boasftful members of the elite, hated Him, for He showed to the world what hypocrites they really were. Fearing Him, even though He seemed to be just the son of a carpenter from Nazareth, they could still see how much the people-the sick, the poor, the blind and maimed, the helpless, al the ones who no on cared for- followed Him, clung to Him, and came by the thousands to hear His holy words. And He healed the, gave sight to the blind, cured their withered hands, gave them to walk again, cleansed them of foul demons and most importantly, He gave thed Hope, and inspired them to havre Faith, and for many,for the first time in their lives, they experienced what it is go be loved.

As in all cases, envy gave way to slander, slander gave way to hatred, and in the end, they put Him to death in a most shameful mannere. There is no record any place in the Holy Gospel of His laughing, clapping and dancing, for His reason to be among was a very serious matter - a matter of death, then of Life. He is known to have wept twice-as He gazed out over Jerusalme, telling it that would be destroyed, and at the death of His dear friend Lazarus,, even though He would raise Him from the dead. No,I do not think He laughed In the life of St.Sava, greatest of the Serbian saints, it was noted that "he always seen to smile, but never to laugh." In my Church, the Orthodox Church, If you look at a holy icon of our Saviour Jesus Christ He is seen looking looking at you as all-powerful, all-knowing, as a Judge, and yet with great love and compassion, and with a very profound sorrow. All of these things are seen and take play as you gaze back at that Divine face. When I look at and pray before such an image, it makes me want to weep, not to laugh. This is who Christ is to me."

The woman had already made her purchase, but turning to face me fully, she said, "Thank you Father, you have really given me an awful lot to think about today." Turning to the clerk she said, "I might just have to return this." She looked serious and thoughtful as she turned to leave, nodded to me with a kind of respect, and walked out.

Yes, we can laugh and have a good time, in fact when monks get together, they share many innocent but hilarious monastic stories, which for that short time is a small consolationm for their struggles, but in the end, it is better to be serious and to repent for our sins now, so that we shall enjoy eternal rejoicing, for if we are not mindful of our souls in this life, we shall spend eternity weeping-and suffering. At the same time, like Father says, we do not have to go around like grim Puritans all the time; we can allow orselves to have, as St. John of the Ladder calls it "undistracted distraction." Thank you for your words, Father.

Later, I expanded the answer I had given to the woman and used it as a sermon.

Fr. A.

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Fr. Raphael, and others:

In your post #31, you write:

"Such statements as 'God has a sense of humour' truly are a kind of blasphemy for they presume to ascribe to God the most fallen of human characteristics. "

With much respect, I must ask: why is the capacity for laughter among the most fallen of human characteristics? It may be merely my ignorance of Patristic anthropology, but I do not find that at all self-evident.

And I do wonder about Christ's laughter. There is no record of it in Scripture, certainly. And yet Scripture speaks of His particular love for children and records His words exhorting us to be like them. Have you ever heard normal, healthy children interact for long with one another without hearing laughter?

Certainly there are many different kinds of laughter, such as the laughter of mockery and that of delight. Surely it is unthinkable to suppose Christ indulging in the former. But in the laughter of delight, like a small child? Why is that a blasphemous supposition? Isn't it recorded in the lives of some of the saints? I am nearly certain that it is, though I will have to hunt up the sources to be sure.

Yours in Christ, with respectful puzzlement,

--Jurretta

[Isaac David]

Dear Fr Averky

Father, Bless!

Thank you for your answer. I recently received a letter from an evangelical organisation of which I used to be a member. One of the illustrations in this newsletter was the laughing Christ - I felt both offended and embarassed by this. Offended because I suspected the very things of which you speak and embarassed because I wasn't too sure if I was being too puritanical. Now I am reassured. Thank you again.

Isaac David

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Jurretta,

My thought as I was writing the sentence you refer to was not directly about any light human joy or perhaps laughter but rather the phrase quoted 'God has a sense of humour'. This ascribes to God a light-hearted changebility which really is theologically not correct. This is no small theological error but major; one of the theological words we use to describe God is 'unchangeable' (eg 1st prayer at Sunday of pentecost Vespers). The love of God is sober. It is from this that the Patristic teaching flows: Christ did not laugh.
Secondly, I was also referring to what we often mean when we use such a phrase, 'God has a sense of humour'. I feel that often we are trying to justify some behaviour which lacks sobriety; since this behaviour is sinful on our part it really is blasphemous if ascribed to God. No matter which way we look at it, I do feel that it is wrong to say, 'God has a sense of humour'.

There are two distinct questions here: does God (and Christ as God) laugh, and what of human laughter? Children of course and adults have joy in Christ. But are we not reading our own standards back on the ancient past when we imagine that the children surrounding Christ were laughing? Christ was a known and often respected religious teacher of Israel; great respect for all things religious was greatly impressed on children by family & society up until some time after the 1950s in the West. I 'see' the children around Christ more as shy and modest. I do believe that it is Patristic teaching that laughter is to be carefully controlled for it shows lack of sobriety. The Holy Elders of old & modern times often smiled, sometimes told humourous (but not raucous) stories with a religious-moral point. But lack of sobriety is a sin for it often (especially nowadays) disguises a kind of chaotic vanity.

I find this discussion fascinating and there are further points we could discuss if others wish but I will wait for the response of others.

In Christ- the very serious Fr R

[Fr Averky]

Dear Isaac David,

I thank you for your letter, because yo know all too well of that which I speak. When I saw the picture, it made me feel uncomfortable.

What bothered me was the entire attitude of the picture; the picture is that of a man in his early thirties, with a rugged "manly" face and tossed curly black hair, throwing his head back in a hearty laugh. This has does of the Arian view that Christ was just a man with divine attributes, but not God. Looking at the picture, it would be possible to not know that it is a depuction of our Saviour. Worst of all, it shows familiarity, not worshipful reverence proper to the Son of God.

While it is true that our Saviour became amn, wlking in our midst and having all the humans aspects we possess, at the same tike, we must keep in mind that as the Son of God, He did not come for a happy purpose, but for the very last attempt to bring the Jdws to repentance, to return to the relationhip that they had once had with His Father.

While He was loved by the simply people, the leaders of the People of Israel not only rejected Him, but plotted to kill Him. As often as they could, hey belittle Him, mocked Him, claimed loudly hat His works were of Beelzebub, and tried to entrap Him by clever questions. Although we was followed by crowds who believed in Him, he was also followed by the arrogant Scribes and Pharisees, constantly attacking Him in the presence of those crowds. In time, after He reveal His divinity to the Samaritan woman, considered a heretic by the Jews, He realized that the hope for the future was with the Gentiles,and this knowing that His own had not heard Him had to be very painful.

All the things I have mentiojed do notneed to be sought after Patristic anthropological sources, they are there in the Holy Gospels.

Thank you for accepting my words Isaac, for this shows your willingness to accepot the woirds of Christs poor and wek priests. You heard my simple words, you saw the picture, and you could see that I was not just being reactionary. And I was pleased that you believed my words we are living in the New Age, when every person is his own god with his own truth. May God save you!

Many stories can be found in monastic chronicles about how laughter is a sign of a lack of sobriety. One I remember off-hand is that two or three young monks were sitting around and laughing merrily. One of the aged and respected Elders heard them and entering the place where they were sitting said to them very sternly, "Every one of in this room at this moment will have to stand before the throne of God to be judged for our sins, incuding light mindedness, and you three can Laugh?! Of course, probably contemporary Orthodx people do no know that light-mindedness is a sin, but it is. Not just for monks, but for all of us.

Jesus Christ is the highest example of sobriety-He was always mindful of the very serious purpose which His Father had sent Him and He was obedient-obedient to death.


Thank you for you respect, Isaac.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr Averky,
That I believe is a good addition; sobriety because of fear of God.
In Christ- Fr R

[Waldemar]

For, in a word, whatever things are natural to men we must not eradicate from them, but rather impose on them limits and suitable times. For man is not to laugh on all occasions because he is a laughing animal, any more than the horse neighs on all occasions because he is a neighing animal. But as rational beings, we are to regulate ourselves suitably, harmoniously relaxing the austerity and over-tension of our serious pursuits, not inharmoniously breaking them up altogether.

For the seemly relaxation of the countenance in a harmonious manner--as of a musical instrument--is called a smile. So also is laughter on the face of well-regulated men termed. But the discordant relaxation of countenance in the case of women is called a giggle, and is meretricious laughter; in the case of men, a guffaw, and is savage arid insulting laughter. "A fool raises his voice in laughter," says the Scripture*; but a clever man smiles almost imperceptibly. The clever man in this case he calls wise, inasmuch as he is differently affected from the fool. But, on the other hand, one needs not be gloomy, only grave. For I certainly prefer a man to smile who has a stern countenance than the reverse; for so his laughter will be less apt to become the object of ridicule.

Smiling even requires to be made the subject of discipline. If it is at what is disgraceful, we ought to blush rather than smile, lest we seem to take pleasure in it by sympathy; if at what is painful, it is fitting to look sad rather than to seem pleased. For to do the former is a sign of rational human thought; the other infers suspicion of cruelty.

We are not to laugh perpetually, for that is going beyond bounds; nor in the presence of elderly persons, or others worthy of respect, unless they indulge in pleasantry for our amusement. Nor are we to laugh before all and sundry, nor in every place, nor to every one, nor about everything. For to children and women especially laughter is the cause of slipping into scandal. And even to appear stern serves to keep those about us at their distance. For gravity can ward off the approaches of licentiousness by a mere look.

St. Clement of Alexandria

The Instructor

Book II, Chapter V

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-53.htm

*A fool raises his voice in laughter, but the prudent man at the most smiles gently.
(Sirach 21:20)

[Fr Averky]

My Dear Jurretta,

Please, I would be interested to myself read incidents in lives the Saintsa wherein they laugh heartily or even laugh at all.

When I was in my second year as a novice, our spiritual father would have weekly meetings in which he would read something from the Fathers, and then he would talk about it then we could discuss the subject and ask questions.

One time he talked about monastic sobriety, reading various Fathers. Then he gave us strict rules of conduct; a monk never shouts or even talks loudly. A monk should never wave his arms aboutor even gesticulate widely. A monk must always be modest in attire and never wear finery, a monk must always say the Prayer when he knocs on the door of another monk. And a monk must never indulge himself or to be thecause others to engage in idle chatter or to laugh loudly. And he did mention tht Christ was never known to have laughed. It was on this occasion that I came to have the opinion that I gave on this thread.

As I have mentioned before, I have lived with two archbishops and have been around our bishops for years. I have never seen any of them laugh out loud; our Metropolitan has been present when something happened which was extremely funny, and while the rest of us who were present broke down laughing, he shook his head from side to side and smiled broadly. Archbishop Seraphim, at that tike a living link to the early days of the Church in Exile, not only did not laugh, but rarely even smiled, but he could shine with such joy!


Yet, Im am not saying that we should walk around being sad and gloom; we just have to be more serious than we are. And, whiled generally I would say that rules for monastics are also for lay people, I will I will give my onw small view. All of us know that we have had a bad day at hom and something happens or someone says something very funny, how good it feels to have a laugh. And further Juretta, there is nothing in Scripture that says that our Saviour never laughed, but as in so many things, we Orthodox Christians rely upon the early Fathers who were divinely inspired, and so we accept their teachings.

The point is that every day we are determining for ourselves what eternity will be, either with God in heaven, or far from Him, suffering with no relief for eternity. Like Aesop's fable about the ant and the grasshopper, while the ant spent time during good weather to prepare for the lean times, the grasshopper played his fiddle and sang and danced. When the cold wind and snow of Winter came, the ant was cozy in his home with enough food to last well into Spring, while the foolish grasshopper had nowhere to go and nothing to eat. I think of this often; that like the foolish virgins, I have no oil, and one day the Bridegroom will come, and I too will be left out in the cold, for I did not prepare myself properly.

Fr. A.

[Trudy Ellmore]

Dear Fr. R and Fr. A:

Would you kindly expand further the thoughts written in Fr. R's post #35 that say "Patristic teaching that laughter is to be carefully controlled for it shows lack of sobriety" and "But lack of sobriety is a sin for it often (especially nowadays) disguises a kind of chaotic vanity." I have been contemplating these thoughts since they were posted, but they illude my understanding.

Does lack of sobriety mean being serious? And what is "chaotic vanity?" That is a phrase I've not heard before. Is it the Church's teaching that we are to be serious minded all of the time? Perhaps this would be so, as we are to work to have the mind of Christ and become holy, which is serious work?

But laughter is healing, or so I've read it to be so medically. It can heal a sad heart. I've read where it has helped to heal those with more difficult illnesses. Not laughter that is due to the hurt inflicted on another or things like that. But general humor. Smiling. Children and babies laugh and giggle.

My dad always taught me that we are created in God's image and we have the ability to laugh. Therefore, laughter must be from God. This must be wrong if I understand what has been written in your previous posts.

Thank you for your kind explanation to these questions.

Sincerely, the puzzled Trudy

[Rose]

Dear Father Raphael,
Can I ask a question? In scripture it is written that Christ cried. If He expressed that human emotion, would He also have not also laughed?

Rose

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Well, Waldemar, it is precisely the tone conveyed in your quotation from St Clement of Alexandria that keeps many women, myself included, from wishing to engage closely with any church. One should not forget either that St John Chrysosotom (I think it was he) dubbed women "spawn of the devil" and I for one find this unforgivably insulting.

a seeker (of a naturally grave, sober, and not emotionally incontinent, disposition)

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Margaret,

I wonder if perhaps you misread the quotation from St Clement's Paedogogue? He is not attributing improper laughter to women, but to women and men -- he does however distinguish between manners in which improper laughter is described differently between the sexes.


But the discordant relaxation of countenance in the case of women is called a giggle, and is meretricious laughter; in the case of men, a guffaw, and is savage arid insulting laughter.

INXC, Matthew

[Waldemar]

Dear Matthew and All,

I'm trying to remember a further instruction on the art of smiling in an Orthodox manner (cf. Sirach 21:20), the toothless grin, or rather, the slight smile without the showing of teeth.
The baring of teeth is a universal sign of aggression in the animal kingdom and an expression that one should not imitate.

Can anyone cite a source for this teaching? I think it was a Russian staretz.

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Fr. Raphael, Fr. Averky, and everyone else:

This discussion is a perfect example of why I often hesitate to post on Monachos: it is so interesting that I know I will be drawn into further conversation, for which I scarcely have time, and may as a result either neglect other duties or write too hastily to you all! Actually, of course, that is a back-handed compliment, to Matthew above all, for creating this community and drawing us all into it for our common benefit.

However, writing hastily this morning, I will just be able to say this: Fr. Averky, I will have to look up those sources I think I remember about saintly laughter. I may well be wrong, so I am now as interested as you to see if my memory was correct. More later. . . .

And, Fr. Raphael, thank you for these words, which give me an opportunity to clarify my own; you wrote:

"But are we not reading our own standards back on the ancient past when we imagine that the children surrounding Christ were laughing? Christ was a known and often respected religious teacher of Israel; great respect for all things religious was greatly impressed on children by family & society up until some time after the 1950s in the West. I 'see' the children around Christ more as shy and modest."

I quite agree with you that the children surrounding Christ would probably have been behaving gently and shyly, and certainly respectfully. I was hypothesizing, however, not their laughter in His presence, but their laughter as children generally, on all sorts of occasions, and supposing that He was probably aware of their tendency to laugh even as He exhorted us to be like them if we would enter His Kingdom.

Thanks again to all for such an interesting thread; I'll pop back onto it as soon as I can.

Yours in Christ,

--Jurretta

[Fr Aaron Warwick]

Dear Father Averky,

Bless!

I have heard it told that there was a man who was going to visit St. Anthony. When he came upon St. Anthony and the brothers, they were all--including St. Anthony--laughing. The man asked St. Anthony why he would be doing such a thing. St. Anthony replied that if you bend a bow too far, it will snap and break in half. "So it is with the brethren," he said.

I definitely agree with your overall assessment of laughter; however, I'm sure that there is a place for laughter when it is done with sobriety.

Aaron

[Isaac David]

Dear Fr Averky, Fr Raphael

Thank you for your contributions. Sometimes, when I read what you write (here and elsewhere on Monachos), I feel something in my spirit saying, "No, this is too difficult," but in my heart I hear a "Yes!" which is like the ringing of a bell. Such words are like the words of Scripture or the Holy Fathers, as if they have come from heaven, fragrant with life and eternity. Excuse me for being flowery, but you not only know these things from books, but from experience. I do not know these things, being the worst of sinners, but I recognise them by their ability to go to the heart and awaken a joyful desire to live by them. Keep on speaking these words to us.

Thank you.

Isaac David

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Monachos community,

It was so good to get up this morning and see the good discussion going on concerning Orthodoxy & laughter.

If Christ wept would He not have laughed? Christ is fully human- so He has human emotions. But He is without sin- so there is nothing ignoble, irreverent or vain about Him. Christ's weeping is an expression of His love & compassion for man and His sorrow over our sinful condition. This is similiar to the many references such as, "Now is my soul troubled." (Jn 12:27) The love of Christ is divine & sober.

Sobriety is a virtue that is attained thru the Holy Spirt- its marks are peace, modesty & self-control. In our struggle towards that virtue we become conscious Christians. The posts about Clement of Alexandria & Fr A's post about the Metropolitan show what sobriety is.

Our culture in its conscious rejection of Christ and exaltation of selfishness of course scorns sobriety and everything connected to it- modesty, self-control, etc. According to society self-control would be a denial of all that is 'free' and 'spontaneous'. Tragically the actual result of this behaviour is inner & outer breakdown of man. He is not free but rather cold, arrogant & crude. By 'chaotic vanity' I meant that by making a god out of himself (vanity) modern man falls further & further into the abyss of inner breakdown & noise. What does society teach us to laugh at? Turn on any media and you will see: crudity & meanness. Laughter is society's version of speaking in tongues, something that drives its own values.

I believe that Christ heals not laughter.

In the love of Christ- Fr R

[Fr John Wehling]

Margaret,

Can I suggest a book for your consideration? "Women and Men in the Early Church: The Full Views of St. John Chrysostom," by David C. Ford (St. Tikhon's Seminary Press; ISBN 1-878997-55-6). I hope this will make St. John seem less threatening.

Peace,
Fr John

[Irene]

Dear Fathers and List Members

As a new person to this list I am finding it a little overwhelming so please forgive me if I have missed something.

1) Re: Females and Laughing: As I understood it, it is only while we are here on earth that being male or female is relevant. If this is true then it is pointless being offended by earthly comments that seem to put women down. Getting upset is only distracting us from what is important. It is hurt pride.

2) Also, the closer you come to God, and the more you feel the joy of loving God, the less likely you are to notice things that may cause lesser beings like myself to laugh. I'd take true joy over momentary laughter any day.

Irene

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Aaron,

In the Sayings of the Desert Fathers it does not say that St Anthony & the other monks were laughing. It says, "A hunter in the desert saw Abba Anthony enjoying himself with the brethren and he was shocked." (p.3; #13, Mowbrays, 1983)

My spiritual father told me that 'enjoying himself' (I do not know what the original Greek word is or means) simply meant 'sitting outside in the company of the other brothers'.
But this story brings up an important point that all things must be done in proper measure; everything has its proper place & time otherwise we 'break the bow'; recognising that we should not make a virtue out of laughter is one thing- saying to oneself, 'I will no longer laugh', well there is probably something wrong there also.

In Christ- the extremely serious Fr R

[Fr Averky]

Dear Friends,

I thank everyone, especially my co-celebrant, Father Raphael for, as Jurretta says, a very interesting and helpful discussion, and even I behaved myself!

When I was a teenager, my Catholic pastor was a Monsignor of amazing intelligence , yet a concerned and loving man. Margaret, it might interest you to know that he was renowned for his advocasy, especially for women and others suffering from discrimination. In the fifties and early sixties, telephone operators attached long cords to a switch board to make connections and racist white women did not want to work next to "colored" women, because they had an "unpleasant body odor."

When Monsigjor Tobin was finished publicly shaming the Bell Telephone Company, such issues never came up again.

But as usual, I digress. He once gave a very interesting talk in which he said that we Christians have an absurd tendency towards "anthropomorphic deism," that is, giving the traits of fallen man to God, rather than the opposite, seeking deification in God." Thus, as Father Raphael so well put it, is the tendency to say that surely "God has a sense of humor," as if His Divine love and especially forgiveness are based on His finally gving in and laughing at sojething stupid or sinful we might hav done. Attaining salvation is a very serious matter, and most certainly not a laughing one..

Please do not take offense at Waldemar, his quote was focused on this particular thread, and not as a slap at women. We do not have to bring up issues all the time, for it just makes it hard to keep to the subject at hand. I am sure that most of us understand your feelings and sympathize.

Your
Father A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Irene,

Your beautiful words are amazingly perceptive and quite profound.

Prayerfully. Father Averky

[Daniel Jeandet]

Yeah, a really good thread. Very interesting. If I were really watchful, and gaurded my missing heart, I wouldnt be wondering about the place of laughter because I would be conducting spiritual experiments on myself and learning with more and more discerment when my laughter or smiling had a negative influence on the state of my being, and when It was acceptable. I often wonder if I should have laughed after I did, but when I dont wonder, I soon feel the need to pray.

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Thank you, Fr John Wehling (#129), for your kind suggestion. I shall certainly read this book, if I can get hold of it, not least to prove (mainly to myself) that I am not irretrievably stuck in a negative mind-set but am open to a different interpretation.

a grateful seeker

[M A Jackson-Roberts]

Thanks to you also, Fr Averky. I did not mean to interject a negative note into the discussion, but the quote to which I took exception reminded me of a local RC priest who officiated at a neighbouring parish to the one I used to attend as a new convert to that church. His sermon subjects were few, and included frequent diatribes about the sinfulness of women - to the extent of driving a friend of mine away from that parish altogether. She, a fellow convert, joined mine instead, but had many subsequent tales to tell of her battles with that insensitive individual before she took the decision to cut loose from his flock.

And we did previously touch on reasons why someone might leave a parish, did we not?

seeker

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Irene & community,

Once God created us male or female we will always remain that way even after death. Think for example of the Mother of God, she will always be she and mother; none of that disappears after death; rather all that is good is fulfilled.

Daniel brings up a good point. The need for vigilance- to discern the spirits is crucial if we are going to discover whether any type of behaviour is Christian or not. Am I aware of what I am doing all the time? Is this from Christ or the world?

To 'hear' in the church we must fight that sinful tendency to throw up a defensive wall; if we do not notice when we do this it soon becomes a habit by which we justify to ourselves much that is sinful. I suppose it all comes full circle; to hear what Christ is saying beyond the din of this world we must first practise that humble vigilance of which Daniel speaks.

In Christ- Fr R

[Irene]

Dear Father Averky and Father Raphael

If it is not wrong to ask, may I have a blessing?

I thankyou for your kindness in responding to my last message.

I am trying to learn and correct my own thoughts and errors.

Father Raphael, you wrote "Once God created us male or female we will always remain that way even after death.", and at first thought I was a little disapointed, but am truly grateful to be corrected. I pray that all my errors whether in thought or deed be forgiven by God's great mercy that I remember to pray for guidance before saying anything either to my children or to others so as not to mislead them.

Thankyou also to Melissa for the quotes from St Ephraim the Syrian, I particularly felt the first one "O Christ the Savior! Grant me my heart's request, that my tongue might become like unto a sweet-sounding flute; that by comforting, enlightening, and educating others, I might pay off a small portion of my great debt and, protected by Thy mercy, I might be saved when every soul is set trembling before Thy terrifying glory."

Irene



Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me a sinner.

[Waldemar]

St. John Chrysostom
Homilies on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians
Homily XVII.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-13/npnf1-13-24.htm#P1271_659432

Ver. 4. "Nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting; but rather giving of thanks."

Have no witticisms, no obscenities, either in word or in deed, and thou wilt quench the flame-"let them not even be named," saith he, "among you," that is, let them not anywhere even make their appearance. This he says also in writing to the Corinthians. "It is actually reported that there is fornication among you" (1 Cor. v. 1); as much as to say, Be ye all pure. For words are the way to acts. Then, that he may not appear a forbidding kind of person and austere, and a destroyer of playfulness, he goes on to add the reason, by saying, "which are not befitting," which have nothing to do with us-"but rather giving of thanks." What good is there in uttering a witticism? thou only raisest a laugh. Tell me, will the shoemaker ever busy himself about anything which does not belong to or befit his trade? or will he purchase any tool of that kind? No, never. Because the things we do not need, are nothing to us.

Moral. Let there not be one idle word; for from idle words we fall also into foul words. The present is no season of loose merriment, but of mourning, of tribulation, and lamentation: and dost thou play the jester? What wrestler on entering the ring neglects the struggle with his adversary, and utters witticisms? The devil stands hard at hand, "he is going about roaring" (1 Pet. v. 8) to catch thee, he is moving everything, and turning everything against thy life, and is scheming to force thee from thy retreat, he is grinding his teeth and bellowing, he is breathing fire against thy salvation; and dost thou sit uttering witticisms, and "talking folly," and uttering things "which are not befitting." Full nobly then wilt thou be able to overcome him! We are in sport, beloved. Wouldest thou know the life of the saints? Listen to what Paul saith. "By the space of three years I ceased not to admonish every one night and day with tears." (Acts xx. 31.) And if so great was the zeal he exerted in behalf of them of Miletus and Ephesus, not making pleasant speeches, but introducing his admonition with tears, what should one say of the rest? But hearken again to what he says to the Corinthians. "Out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears." (2 Cor. ii. 4.) And again, "Who is weak, and I am not weak?" "Who is made to stumble, and I burn not?" (2 Cor. xi. 29.) And hearken again to what he says elsewhere, desiring every day, as one might say, to depart out of the world. "For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan" (2 Cor. v. 4); and dost thou laugh and play? It is war-time, and art thou handling the dancers' instruments? Look at the countenances of men in battle, their dark and contracted mien, their brow terrible and full of awe. Mark the stern eye, the heart eager and beating and throbbing, their spirit collected, and trembling and intensely anxious. All is good order, all is good discipline, all is silence in the camps of those who are arrayed against each other. They speak not, I do not say, an impertinent word, but they utter not a single sound. Now if they who have visible enemies, and who are in nowise injured by words, yet observe so great silence, dost thou who hast thy warfare, and the chief of thy warfare in words, dost thou leave this part naked and exposed? Or art thou ignorant that it is here that we are most beset with snares? Art thou amusing and enjoying thyself, and uttering witticisms and raising a laugh, and regarding the matter as a mere nothing? How many perjuries, how many injuries, how many filthy speeches have arisen from witticisms! "But no," ye will say, "pleasantries are not like this." Yet hear how he excludes all kinds of jesting. It is a time now of war and fighting, of watch and guard, of arming and arraying ourselves. The time of laughter can have no place here; for that is of the world. Hear what Christ saith: "The world shall rejoice, but ye shall be sorrowful." (John xvi. 20.) Christ was crucified for thy ills, and dost thou laugh? He was buffeted, and endured so great sufferings because of thy calamity, and the tempest that had overtaken thee; and dost thou play the reveler? And how wilt thou not then rather provoke Him?

But since the matter appears to some to be one of indifference, which moreover is difficult to be guarded against, let us discuss this point a little, to show you how vast an evil it is. For indeed this is a work of the devil, to make us disregard things indifferent. First of all then, even if it were indifferent, not even in that case were it right to disregard it, when one knows that the greatest evils are both produced and increased by it, and that it oftentimes terminates in fornication. However, that it is not even indifferent is evident from hence. Let us see then whence it is produced. Or rather, let us see what sort of a person a saint ought to be:-gentle, meek, sorrowful, mournful, contrite. The man then who deals in jests is no saint. Nay, were he even a Greek, such an one would be scorned. These are things allowed to those only who are on the stage. Where filthiness is, there also is jesting; where unseasonable laughter is, there also is jesting. Hearken to what the Prophet saith, "Serve the Lord in fear, and rejoice with trembling." (Ps. ii. II) Jesting renders the soul soft and indolent. It excites the soul unduly, and often it teems with acts of violence, and creates wars. But what more? In fine, hast thou not come to be among men? then "put away childish things." (I Cor. xiii. II) Why, thou wilt not allow thine own servant in the market place to speak an impertinent word: and dost thou then, who sayest thou art a servant of God, go uttering thy witticisms in the public square? It is well if the soul that is "sober" be not stolen away; but one that is relaxed and dissolute, who cannot carry off? It will be its own murderer, and will stand in no need of the crafts or assaults of the devil.

But, moreover, in order to understand this, look too at the very name. It means the versatile man, the man of all complexions, the unstable, the pliable, the man that can be anything and everything. But far is this from those who are servants to the Rock. Such a character quickly turns and changes; for he must needs mimic both gesture and speech, and laugh and gait, and everything, aye, and such an one is obliged to invent jokes: for he needs this also. But far be this from a Christian, to play the buffoon. Farther, the man who plays the jester must of necessity incur the signal hatred of the objects of his random ridicule, whether they be present, or being absent hear of it.

If the thing is creditable, why is it left to mountebanks? What, dost thou make thyself a mountebank, and yet art not ashamed? Why is it ye permit not your gentlewomen to do so? Is it not that ye set it down as a mark of an immodest, and not of a discreet character? Great are the evils that dwell in a soul given to jesting; great is the ruin and desolation. Its consistency is broken, the building is decayed, fear is banished, reverence is gone. A tongue thou hast, not that thou mayest ridicule another man, but that thou mayest give thanks unto God. Look at your merriment-makers, as they are called, those buffoons. These are your jesters. Banish from your souls, I entreat you, this graceless accomplishment. It is the business of parasites, of mountebanks, of dancers, of harlots; far be it from a generous, far be it from a highborn soul, aye, far too even from slaves. If there be any one who has lost respect, if there be any vile person, that man is also a jester. To many indeed the thing appears to be even a virtue, and this truly calls for our sorrow. Just as lust by little and little drives headlong into fornication, so also does a turn for jesting. It seems to have a grace about it, yet there is nothing more graceless than this. For hear the Scripture which says, "Before the thunder goeth lightning, and before a shamefaced man shall go favor." Now there is nothing more shameless than the jester; so that his mouth is not full of favor, but of pain. Let us banish this custom from our tables. Yet are there some who teach it even to the poor! O monstrous! they make men in affliction play the jester. Why, where shall not this pest be found next? Already has it been brought into the Church itself. Already has it laid hold of the very Scriptures. Need I say anything to prove the enormity of the evil? I am ashamed indeed, but still nevertheless I will speak; for I am desirous to show to what a length the mischief has advanced, that I may not appear to be trifling, or to be discoursing to you on some trifling subject; that even thus I may be enabled to withdraw you from this delusion. And let no one think that I am fabricating, but I will tell you what I have really heard. A certain person happened to be in company with one of those who pride themselves highly on their knowledge (now I know I shall excite a smile, but still I will say it notwithstanding); and when the platter was set before him, he said, "Take and eat, children, lest your belly be angry!" And again, others say, "Woe unto thee, Mammon, and to him that hath thee not" and many like enormities has jesting introduced; as when they say, "Now is there no nativity." And this I say to show the enormity of this base temper; for these are the expressions of a soul destitute of all reverence. And are not these things enough to call down thunderbolts? And one might find many other such things which have been said by these men.

Wherefore, I entreat you, let us banish the custom universally, and speak those things which become us. Let not holy mouths utter the words of dishonorable and base men. "For what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity, or what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor. vi. 14.) Happy will it be for us, if, having kept ourselves aloof from all such foul things, we be thus able to attain to the promised blessings; far indeed from dragging such a train after us, and sullying the purity of our minds by so many. For the man who will play the jester will soon go on to be a railer, and the railer will go on to heap ten thousand other mischiefs on himself. When then we shall have disciplined these two faculties of the soul, anger and desire (vid. Plat. Phaedr. cc. 25, 34), and have put them like well-broken horses under the yoke of reason, then let us set over them the mind as charioteer, that we may "gain the prize of our high calling" (Phil. iii. 14); which God grant that we may all attain, through Jesus Christ our Lord, with Whom, together with the Holy Ghost, be unto the Father, glory, might, and honor, now, and ever, and throughout all ages. Amen.

[Waldemar]

St. John Chrysostom
Homilies on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians
Homily XVII.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-13/npnf1-13-24.htm#P1271_659432

Ver. 4. "Nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting; but rather giving of thanks."

Have no witticisms, no obscenities, either in word or in deed, and thou wilt quench the flame-"let them not even be named," saith he, "among you," that is, let them not anywhere even make their appearance. This he says also in writing to the Corinthians. "It is actually reported that there is fornication among you" (1 Cor. v. 1); as much as to say, Be ye all pure. For words are the way to acts. Then, that he may not appear a forbidding kind of person and austere, and a destroyer of playfulness, he goes on to add the reason, by saying, "which are not befitting," which have nothing to do with us-"but rather giving of thanks." What good is there in uttering a witticism? thou only raisest a laugh. Tell me, will the shoemaker ever busy himself about anything which does not belong to or befit his trade? or will he purchase any tool of that kind? No, never. Because the things we do not need, are nothing to us.

Moral. Let there not be one idle word; for from idle words we fall also into foul words. The present is no season of loose merriment, but of mourning, of tribulation, and lamentation: and dost thou play the jester? What wrestler on entering the ring neglects the struggle with his adversary, and utters witticisms? The devil stands hard at hand, "he is going about roaring" (1 Pet. v. 8) to catch thee, he is moving everything, and turning everything against thy life, and is scheming to force thee from thy retreat, he is grinding his teeth and bellowing, he is breathing fire against thy salvation; and dost thou sit uttering witticisms, and "talking folly," and uttering things "which are not befitting." Full nobly then wilt thou be able to overcome him! We are in sport, beloved. Wouldest thou know the life of the saints? Listen to what Paul saith. "By the space of three years I ceased not to admonish every one night and day with tears." (Acts xx. 31.) And if so great was the zeal he exerted in behalf of them of Miletus and Ephesus, not making pleasant speeches, but introducing his admonition with tears, what should one say of the rest? But hearken again to what he says to the Corinthians. "Out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears." (2 Cor. ii. 4.) And again, "Who is weak, and I am not weak?" "Who is made to stumble, and I burn not?" (2 Cor. xi. 29.) And hearken again to what he says elsewhere, desiring every day, as one might say, to depart out of the world. "For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan" (2 Cor. v. 4); and dost thou laugh and play? It is war-time, and art thou handling the dancers' instruments? Look at the countenances of men in battle, their dark and contracted mien, their brow terrible and full of awe. Mark the stern eye, the heart eager and beating and throbbing, their spirit collected, and trembling and intensely anxious. All is good order, all is good discipline, all is silence in the camps of those who are arrayed against each other. They speak not, I do not say, an impertinent word, but they utter not a single sound. Now if they who have visible enemies, and who are in nowise injured by words, yet observe so great silence, dost thou who hast thy warfare, and the chief of thy warfare in words, dost thou leave this part naked and exposed? Or art thou ignorant that it is here that we are most beset with snares? Art thou amusing and enjoying thyself, and uttering witticisms and raising a laugh, and regarding the matter as a mere nothing? How many perjuries, how many injuries, how many filthy speeches have arisen from witticisms! "But no," ye will say, "pleasantries are not like this." Yet hear how he excludes all kinds of jesting. It is a time now of war and fighting, of watch and guard, of arming and arraying ourselves. The time of laughter can have no place here; for that is of the world. Hear what Christ saith: "The world shall rejoice, but ye shall be sorrowful." (John xvi. 20.) Christ was crucified for thy ills, and dost thou laugh? He was buffeted, and endured so great sufferings because of thy calamity, and the tempest that had overtaken thee; and dost thou play the reveler? And how wilt thou not then rather provoke Him?

But since the matter appears to some to be one of indifference, which moreover is difficult to be guarded against, let us discuss this point a little, to show you how vast an evil it is. For indeed this is a work of the devil, to make us disregard things indifferent. First of all then, even if it were indifferent, not even in that case were it right to disregard it, when one knows that the greatest evils are both produced and increased by it, and that it oftentimes terminates in fornication. However, that it is not even indifferent is evident from hence. Let us see then whence it is produced. Or rather, let us see what sort of a person a saint ought to be:-gentle, meek, sorrowful, mournful, contrite. The man then who deals in jests is no saint. Nay, were he even a Greek, such an one would be scorned. These are things allowed to those only who are on the stage. Where filthiness is, there also is jesting; where unseasonable laughter is, there also is jesting. Hearken to what the Prophet saith, "Serve the Lord in fear, and rejoice with trembling." (Ps. ii. II) Jesting renders the soul soft and indolent. It excites the soul unduly, and often it teems with acts of violence, and creates wars. But what more? In fine, hast thou not come to be among men? then "put away childish things." (I Cor. xiii. II) Why, thou wilt not allow thine own servant in the market place to speak an impertinent word: and dost thou then, who sayest thou art a servant of God, go uttering thy witticisms in the public square? It is well if the soul that is "sober" be not stolen away; but one that is relaxed and dissolute, who cannot carry off? It will be its own murderer, and will stand in no need of the crafts or assaults of the devil.

But, moreover, in order to understand this, look too at the very name. It means the versatile man, the man of all complexions, the unstable, the pliable, the man that can be anything and everything. But far is this from those who are servants to the Rock. Such a character quickly turns and changes; for he must needs mimic both gesture and speech, and laugh and gait, and everything, aye, and such an one is obliged to invent jokes: for he needs this also. But far be this from a Christian, to play the buffoon. Farther, the man who plays the jester must of necessity incur the signal hatred of the objects of his random ridicule, whether they be present, or being absent hear of it.

If the thing is creditable, why is it left to mountebanks? What, dost thou make thyself a mountebank, and yet art not ashamed? Why is it ye permit not your gentlewomen to do so? Is it not that ye set it down as a mark of an immodest, and not of a discreet character? Great are the evils that dwell in a soul given to jesting; great is the ruin and desolation. Its consistency is broken, the building is decayed, fear is banished, reverence is gone. A tongue thou hast, not that thou mayest ridicule another man, but that thou mayest give thanks unto God. Look at your merriment-makers, as they are called, those buffoons. These are your jesters. Banish from your souls, I entreat you, this graceless accomplishment. It is the business of parasites, of mountebanks, of dancers, of harlots; far be it from a generous, far be it from a highborn soul, aye, far too even from slaves. If there be any one who has lost respect, if there be any vile person, that man is also a jester. To many indeed the thing appears to be even a virtue, and this truly calls for our sorrow. Just as lust by little and little drives headlong into fornication, so also does a turn for jesting. It seems to have a grace about it, yet there is nothing more graceless than this. For hear the Scripture which says, "Before the thunder goeth lightning, and before a shamefaced man shall go favor." Now there is nothing more shameless than the jester; so that his mouth is not full of favor, but of pain. Let us banish this custom from our tables. Yet are there some who teach it even to the poor! O monstrous! they make men in affliction play the jester. Why, where shall not this pest be found next? Already has it been brought into the Church itself. Already has it laid hold of the very Scriptures. Need I say anything to prove the enormity of the evil? I am ashamed indeed, but still nevertheless I will speak; for I am desirous to show to what a length the mischief has advanced, that I may not appear to be trifling, or to be discoursing to you on some trifling subject; that even thus I may be enabled to withdraw you from this delusion. And let no one think that I am fabricating, but I will tell you what I have really heard. A certain person happened to be in company with one of those who pride themselves highly on their knowledge (now I know I shall excite a smile, but still I will say it notwithstanding); and when the platter was set before him, he said, "Take and eat, children, lest your belly be angry!" And again, others say, "Woe unto thee, Mammon, and to him that hath thee not" and many like enormities has jesting introduced; as when they say, "Now is there no nativity." And this I say to show the enormity of this base temper; for these are the expressions of a soul destitute of all reverence. And are not these things enough to call down thunderbolts? And one might find many other such things which have been said by these men.

Wherefore, I entreat you, let us banish the custom universally, and speak those things which become us. Let not holy mouths utter the words of dishonorable and base men. "For what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity, or what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor. vi. 14.) Happy will it be for us, if, having kept ourselves aloof from all such foul things, we be thus able to attain to the promised blessings; far indeed from dragging such a train after us, and sullying the purity of our minds by so many. For the man who will play the jester will soon go on to be a railer, and the railer will go on to heap ten thousand other mischiefs on himself. When then we shall have disciplined these two faculties of the soul, anger and desire (vid. Plat. Phaedr. cc. 25, 34), and have put them like well-broken horses under the yoke of reason, then let us set over them the mind as charioteer, that we may "gain the prize of our high calling" (Phil. iii. 14); which God grant that we may all attain, through Jesus Christ our Lord, with Whom, together with the Holy Ghost, be unto the Father, glory, might, and honor, now, and ever, and throughout all ages. Amen.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Irene,

Yes what an inexpressible sign of God's love that each of us in His creation has been given a uniqueness, imperishable in Him and also finding its harmony in others.

I thank you Waldemar for the amazing selection from St John Chrysostom; I have copied it into a folder. This seemed to be what we were all struggling to express and also tied many threads (discussion board & otherwise!) together. I was very struck when St John, referring to the joking, light-hearted man says, "the versatile man, the man of all complexions, the unstable , the pliable, the man that is anything and everything. But far is this from those who are servants of the Rock." What an incredible & prophetic description of what we have become! Many of these exact words are now used as ideals for our society: 'versatile, pliable'; and frightening, 'the man that can be anything & everything.' It seems that the saint is describing how in being so light-hearted we lose our very selves, gradually fade away into nothingness. What a comment on the very things, the values we have been taught to hold dear by our society. Conversely we have been taught that by following Christ we will lose ourselves. What a reversal of true values! But what a wonderful thing that God has shown the way on this upcoming first pre-Lenten Sunday. The Publican & Pharisee seem to be the two different images of the two very different choices before us that we have talked about in this thread. The Pharisee in some way is the 'smart man of this world'; the Publican the repentant child of the Church. Probably we have both fighting within us but let Christ help us to see what good He offers us!

In the love of Christ- as we begin this pre-Lenten season- Fr Raphael

[Jonathan Tallon]

I thiink it only fair to point out that Chrysostom did NOT think that laughter was of itself sinful; only when it was inappropriate. Thus, he says:
But (one says) what harm is there in laughter? There is no harm in laughter; the harm is when it is beyond measure, and out of season. Laughter has been implanted in us, that when we see our friends after a long time, we may laugh; that when we see any persons downcast and fearful, we may relieve them by our smile; not that we should burst out violently and be always laughing. Laughter has been implanted in our soul, that the soul may sometimes be refreshed, not that it may be quite relaxed.

Hebrews Homily 15

On Trudy's point, it is interesting to note that Chrysostom does see it as at least refreshing the soul (albiet not healing).

Chrysostom also repeatedly refers to laughing when people insult us (not out loud if it would only provoke them further), and that laughter and joy can be expected in heaven.

God has given us the gift of laughter, it is part of our human nature (and was therefore also part of Christ's). Like all gifts from God, evil consists of misusing it.

As to the original question, if a 'sense of humour' implies change, then of course we cannot predicate it of God. But the laughter that we associate with true joy, this seems to me right to think of as coming from God (as everything good does).

Yours in Christ,

Jonathan

[Fr Averky]

Dear Johnathan,

There is no indication in your profile if you are Orthodox or not, but if you will read Father Raphael's and my posts, you will see that we are emphasizing sobriety in the face of a world getting worse by the day. And we are looking to the writings of monastic Fathers. Of course, there are times when we can and should laugh, but the question which started this thread was to whether making people laugh out loud during a church service is appropriate, which to Orthodox Christians it is not.

So the discussion at hand also admonishes us to be "sober and watchful" at all times, for it is far more appropiate to keep one's sins ever before him than to laugh and have fun.

I was recently looking up recipes for my special renal diet, and I found an interesting article about what we call "Cook Offs," Which are natiion wide cooking competitions held for baking, main dishes, and so on. The woman writing the article made the point of saying that while most nations of the world prepare food for sustenance and nutrition, such as the Italians, who say of themselves in this country, "We do not eat to live, we live to eat!" The French are known for their wonderful and varied cuisine, while the Chinese have the largest menu in the world, but Americans, the author concluded, eat to have "fun."

Fun and laughter. Yes, that is the aim of most people these days. We are becoming the most obese people in the world eating pizza, fried food, ice cream, candly, potato chips and an endless array of treats.

I believe that this really reflects upon our attitude as a people. We are kijnd, good hearted and generous, but we are not serious enough. We are free, powerful, and we have never been invaded or occupied-we do not know the horrors of war in our homeland othdr than the Civil War and the loss of home and family. There is a Russian saying, "He who laughs much now, will weep much more later on."

Yes, there are times when we can laugh and make merry, but we should t also think about our salvation just as much as we think of having fun. Johnathan, may your life be filled with spiritual joy more than with fun and laughter.

Respectfully.

Fr. A.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr A & Monachos Community,

Further serious notes on an extremely serious topic: Father-I read with great profit your last post until I came to the somewhat jarring remark that, "we have never been invaded or occupied." As all Canadians are dutifully taught in public school during the War of 1812-14 British & Canadian troops entered Washington DC and burnt down the Capitol building(s) and then politely withdrew. They also made attacks in the Niagra Falls & Ohio areas. Most crucially they defeated several major attempts at the invasion of Canada by the American Army. Still CANADIAN Orthodox- eh?

Yours most seriously, without humour (note that we spell humour properly)and without the trace of a smile- Fr R

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Fr Raphael, you wrote:


Yours most seriously, without humour (note that we spell humour properly) and without the trace of a smile

Ah, indeed, some of us noticed immediately. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif All these poor American 'English' travesties. But little worry: we shall soon regularise their spelling to the centre of propriety, as a favour to the nation.

INXC, Matthew

[Fr Averky]

Dear Fr.Raphael,

Forgive me for not making my statement more clearly. The "invasions" of which you speak were certainly not on the scale of Hitler's invasion or Poland or all the other European countries his armies marched into. As you menmtion, the British were brief and polite.

An interesting little tidbit: At the end of the War of 1812, As Benjamin Franklin was departing for England to negotiate for our side, George Washington said to him, "Do not even bother to mention Canada to thwm, they will never give it. to us." King George III*said to his negotiaters, "If Mr. Franklun even mentions Canada, give it to them it is too much trouble."

Father and others, please pfay for me, I just got out of the hospital-again, and I feel just terrible. I am facing the fact that I will never have a "good" day again, and most likely will never serve again, which sorely grieves me.

In Christ,

Fr. Averky

[Fr Averky]

My Dear Father Raphael,

Yes, I remember the dark days of that invasion of which you speak. However, in the end, the US won-economically.

I attended RC seminary in Kitchener when it was a sleepy little town, and my experiences in Canada were most pleasant. A truly beautiful country with very fine citizens. I particularly loved Montreal.

Fr. A.

[Fr Raphael Vereshack]

Dear Fr A,

Please be assured dear father that we are all praying for you & that God may support you in the podvig of your present state of health.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Kieran P.]

Hi friends, :)

I agree wholeheartedly that we must be sober in the Church, aware of the Presence of God and filled with a delight only for prayer.

But 'laughter' isn't a sin - it can be an innocent expression of joy, and although Our Lord isn't recorded laughing in scripture, I doubt His presence among drinkers and sinners was found to be distasteful to the puritans of His day simply because he sat among revellers with a joyless expression.

I imagine He was such an exemplary man that His Presence alone made vulgar men hold their tongues out of respect for Him, but they trusted Him also because He understood them deeply and they were drawn to Him - common men - because He could show them something of themselves which they aspired to be.

Could we be in danger of reducing sanctity to a series of stereoptypical ascetic or practical attributes or raising in praise certain personality types over others?

G.K Chesterton wrote a wonderful paragraph, I believe it comes from his book 'Orthodoxy':


Jesus “restrained something. I say it with reverence; there was in that shattering personality a thread that must be called shyness . . . There was something that He covered constantly by abrupt silence or impetuous isolation. There was some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth; and I have sometimes fancied that it was His mirth.”

Not frivolity, not loss of faith through yielding to His earthly appetites - but joy.

God bless us all

[Kusanagi]

Putting humour into a serious matter as prayer takes away the point of talking to God it brings Him down to a human level like a guy you can joke with rather than someone of a high authority.

Humour is good as some monks i know uses it but too much is bad as it chases away the Holy Spirit.