Admonishing sinners

[Basil Shannon]

In a pocket prayer book I sometimes use there is a list of chief works of spiritual mercy in which is listed admonishing sinners. As a protestant convert, it is very difficult for me to see how this would be carried out in Orthodoxy. When would it be appropriate to think about, much less admonish anyone's sin, if I am to view myself as the chief of sinners?

If anyone could address what they might do in various situations I would appreciate it.

[Justin]

I think it has to do with your relationship with the person. Disciplining your child is ok; confronting your friend about his or her alcohol abuse is probably also ok. Telling a visitor to your Church that she's wearing too much make-up is probably not ok (unless you priest has specifically appointed you for such a task so that, for instance, the icons don't get all messed up). That's what I'd guess, at least.

[Basil Shannon]

Recently a nun visited our parish and told a story of a holy man who lived in a large city. A monk visited this man and asked him how the man could pray and progress on his path of inner prayer and solitude with all the drunk people caterwaulling outside his window. To this the man replied that he tells himself that all those men will be saved and I alone am a sinner. The drunken people did not affect him as even they, despite their obvious unpious behavior, were seen as more holy than himself.

Perhaps the admonishing occurs more in general condemnation of sin rather than particular confrontation of anyone. Also, perhaps, it falls under the responsibility of a spiritual father to aid in the salvation of those under his care.

I apprecitate your imput Justin. I have two young children and have plenty of opportunities to admonish them no doubt. My question really was generated from an experience recently when a non-Orthodox friend made me aware that he had formed an intimate phone and internet relationship with a married woman and intended to travel across country to meet her. I was at a loss of what to say, other than it was a bad idea. My own sins flooded my mind and I felt truly unable to say much.

[Arsenios]

Basil writes:


When would it be appropriate to think about, much less admonish, anyone's sin, if I am to view myself as the chief of sinners?

We normally in the west consider admonishment as finger pointing in blame and rebuking in outrage, or in some concealment of these... One of the things the Bible tells us is that we admonish one another in spiritual songs and psalms...

I remember a great conflict within my parish wherein the two parties to it were admonished directly within the liturgy, during the homily, wherein the daily reading itself proved the vehicle of enlightenment, and the teachings thereof... The eyes of the two parties were wetted in tears, and came to their spiritual senses... Yet had I not known of the conflict, I would never have guesed that anyone was being admonished, for there was no finger-pointing at all, and only the loving exposition of a homily on some Christian virtues. [I was the chief one of the offenders...]

And I have found since then, that when I see something in my brother that I would admonish him to do or to refrain from doing, I look within myself for that very shortcoming - I never have to look very far - And I but confess it to my brother, and pray for him... And I have found that whenever I try to do more than this, I stumble both myself and [often] my brother too...

And there are mny times [most, if truth be told] when even this "method" is not well advised, where admonishment even by self-confession is but my own moral busy-bodiness and arrogance, and in the case of doubt, any doubt at all, there is profound wisdom in silence and prayer, and of these I am always in precious short supply...

I look foreward to others' takes on this one... Especially the Fathers...

Arsenios

[Richard Leigh]

A little admonition about admonishing:

All the scriptural references and early patristic references to admonision have in view a hierarchical society (not must church) in which one's social standing was known to all and accepted by all.

Admonition is a parental kind of activity, generally speaking, and one would be within one's socially accepted sphere to admonish a lesser. These are alwo the ones a person would "witness to" BTW. No one would ever be accepted in admoniting an equal, much less a better.

21st century America is not such a society, and most people are sensitive to being "parented," and would naturally resent it. Uninvited admonition is pretty much rejected, at best. OTOH, if one has a relationship with someone else in which there is permission to admonish, that would be a different story. And of course, "if you have ought against your neighbor, leave your gift at the altar and go make it right with him..."

Finally, judgments of sin always entail personal sinfulness in the area that has been judged. We see only so clearly what we are guilty of ourselves. We can do no one any good removing the dust mote from their eye until we have removed the beam from our own eye, THEN, what we have to offer will help, because it will be one begger showing another beggar where to get bread.

Yours,

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear Basil,

Listen to Richard leigh's post 405; you could not get a more clear answer.

Thank you Richard.

Justin, a very good answer

Fr. A.