God's expectations of us

[Rebecca Duncan]

This might be long...sorry, but it is about ALOT of problems. I'm a former Roman Catholic and current Catechumen in the EOC. But, ever since i became a catechumen in the EOC i've started having alot of problems. I started having trust issues...i guess finding out that the RCC was not the true church was just too much for me. i've never had that sort of problem before now. I'm finding it difficult to put my trust in another church after what has happened with the former one. And I've become very depressed, cynical, and have started doubting as a result. Before I was so sure about the church, and I accepted everything on faith...i didn't have a problem with that...but now i find that it is very difficult for me to do that anymore. I guess finding out i was wrong after i was sure i was right has spun me...and i just can't stop spinning. Now i feel like i have to justify these beliefs, intellectually to myself and to the satisfaction of others, in order to believe them, and of course that isn't working. I feel foolish for believing in the RCC and that has extended to believing in Christianity in general. I've become very...resentful...about it, and this has extended to other parts of the faith i try to live as well. I also have intense anxiety about my life as a Christian, or my potential life as a Christian. If I were to become Orthodox, I would want to become a Nun (or at least live as close to that lifestyle as possible in the world) and I find myself again having trouble justifying that...extremity. I also have trouble putting my trust in my priest...since i did in the RCC but i found it wrong, and him to be wrong. I'm also having immense anxiety about waiting to become Orthodox, or decision about it. I'm very afraid that I will make the wrong decision, that I will give up, and my life will be destroyed. I'm having a lot of trouble thinking about it objectively or reasonably because of that. I'm also having a very, very hard time understanding things about Orthodoxy, and Christianity in general. And beginning to feel resentful because of this, and angry at some of the beliefs which I used to be able to reconcile myself to. More than anything right now, I question how God can expect anything out of me at all. I'm having a lot of self doubt...and self hatred...and doing self destructive things. I'm afraid before too long i'll spiral out of control...and this just reinforces my anxiety about being baptized or chrismated into the church sooner than maybe i should. I became Christian because God helped me when I asked Him to...but now in this terrible time I feel abandoned by Him. I've tried everything, praying, fasting, etc. but nothing has helped and nothing has changed. People say, God never promised this life would be easy, some saints waited this and such amount of time, be patient. Again I ask how God can expect anything from me. I want to talk to my priest about it...but I have a hard time talking with people in general...I don't know him that well...and he's out of town right now. I just wonder if anybody else has gone through something similar, or has any advice...anything...to help me.

[M. Rallis]

God bless you Rebecca Duncan, and know that He hasn't abandoned you! Sometimes, when I am feeling the lowest, that is just when I can truly experience the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, so my advice would be, to focus on the liturgical life in your parish, and be patient, knowing that our Lord is always working things toward our salvation. As for "self-doubt, self-hatred, and doing self-destructive things" if you are feeling overwhelmed, it is alright to seek out help. Sharing our burden with a brother or sister in Christ, especially with a Priest, can be a great source of strength and healing. And sometimes sooner is better than later.

[Arsenios]

Dear Rebecca -

I am empathically and truely sorry about the extent of your struggle, and its huge difficulty... The good news is that you have brought this struggle to the Monarchos community, which puts you in the prayers of several fathers, a monk, and a bunch of the rest of us strugglers... So that you will have our added buoyancy to the prayers that are offered every liturgy by the Church, and by your parish...

I struggled for 4 years, in gobs of troubles with my own sins, to enter Orthodoxy, and I was brought to my knees utterly, and healed therefrom, by an encounter with one of Her bishops... I did not expect that to happen... I had been so alone in my struggles for so long, that I just figured I would have to buck up and handle my wipe out on my own, with some spiritual help, to be sure, but not from any person in the flesh in front of me...

I was wrong...

Less than one minute with that bishop, and I was healed... With no mention of the healing... And I was free-falling in the abyss of all my worst sins, and they are more than grievous...

So your path, while not that much like mine in its particulars, is so in terms of intensity and risk and dangers... Or so I would at least surmise... And what I learned from mine was to trust the process, regardless of how much or little you trust yourself... Or even how far you fall... Or don't fall...

As a catechumen, you are an embryo in the womb of the Mother, the Church, developing in slow gestation to the point of birth in baptism/chrismation... You are especially protected with extraordinary grace in this womb, and you are safe until born... And then it is time to grow, at God's speed...

Why don't you go on a pilgrimage to an Orthodox women's monastery? Talk with the Abbess, and listen to her, telling her your troubles and doubts, and even if she has no great problem solving advice for you, you can rely on her praying for you... No small matter...

If you are in the Pacific NW, I can recommend one to you - Our parish has two young women novices there... And the Abbess knows prayer... I heard her pray at an infant baptism, and though she prayed in Greek, of which I understood barely two words, the feeling of that prayer fairly lifted me heavenward...

But the idea is, you are getting battered right now, and you are shy, and maybe lack people skills, and have a lot of insight, and you need to find someone with whom you can talk, who knows how to help you get where you need to go... And while us old guys on Monarchos might be a little useful, a woman might be better, and an Abbess perhaps ideal...

But listen especially to Father Averky, for he is by far the most experienced on this list, I should think, and will have not only better ideas, but a far better expression of them, being far more humble by long training and effort, than us beginners [like me] in the faith...

You are now in my prayers...

Arsenios

[Herman Blaydoe]

Rebecca,

Trust = Faith, Faith = Trust. Trust is something that must be earned, even by God. But we have to allow Him the opportunity to earn our trust. Don't worry about not trusting right now, but let God earn your trust.

When battered by the storms of doubt and temptations and the noise of this world, it is good to seek refuge and solitude. The angelic life of monasticism is a high and noble calling, but not for everybody. I second George's advice to visit a monastery near you. Most Orthodox monasteries follow the ancient tradition of 3 days hospitality and longer visits can usually be arranged. You do NOT have to make the decision for monasticism right away. Try it on for size first before making any decision, talk with the abbess. Even if you decide that monasticism is not the path for you, much consolation, solace and wisdom is available from these spiritual fortresses to help us who remain "in the world"

The Orthodox Monasteries of North America (http://omna.nettinker.com) can assist you in exploring whether or not this is an option in your life.

God be with you and grant you guidance in your spiritual journey.

Herman
I am not a monastic nor do I play one on the internet. Consult an ordained spiritual advisor before taking this advice. Your mileage may vary.

[Janice Chadwick]

Rebecca, have you talked to your priest about what is going on? Please, please do that. He can help you with all this. Tell him exactly what is going on. Also, I warn you, this period that you're in is very hard--Satan will hit you with everything he can to keep you from joining the Orthodox church.

I can guarantee you that God hasn't abandoned you, even though you can't see or feel Him right now. He is there. Sometimes it's really hard to see that when you feel like you're in a minefield and scared to death that you're going to get blown up (I know, I've been there).

Again, please talk to your priest and tell him *exactly* what is going on, including your self-destructive acts.

Keep praying, and ask the Theotokos to pray for you too. If you've already chosen your patron saint, pray to her too. I guarantee you that the saints are all praying for you too. You aren't alone.

[Douglas Eckhoff]

Dear Rebecca,

I too am a catechumen in the Orthodox Church. Like you I am a former Roman Catholic. I can understand your feelings. However, you might might think about this on your journey. I was catholic for 43 years. I was educated in Catholic schools, attended an RC college-seminary and spent three in a Roman Catholic religious order. For all of that I have deep gratitude. Gratitude for teaching me the traditions of church history and spirituality. Gratitude for giving me a firm foundation of belief in the essentials of the faith, for teaching me right from wrong, for teaching me to pray. Try to let go of any regret and be grateful for what can be seen as a stepping stone that has led both you and I to the most firm foundation that is Orthodox Christianity.

Be assured of the prayers of this sinner.

-Douglas
New York

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

I am far from wise but I know this, Orthodoxy is partly about letting the mind descend into the heart, how this is done requires the advice of a spiritual guide, bnevmadigos or starets are the terms i think used for them in the russian and greek traditions or Spiritual father in English, If you are in UK England there is a monastery started by Saint Siluan's spiritual child God be with his soul Sophronis and another Nun who died Sr Maria, God rest her soul, i think i could be wrong about Sr's name though, its a very nice place and you can make nice friends there, there are 2 spiritual fathers there and many wise nuns and many wise monks, they have his tomb there, if you would like to contact me i would be glad to hear, but George and micheal would be better and Fr Averky gives sound advice, hope this helps

Thank God for you letting us know,
with love in Christ
Charalambos

[Rebecca]

Dear Rebecca Duncan,

I suggest to look especially to advice from Michael as he has written wise words...I can't add anything but to point to what he said.

ps..on a conversational note, my parents also gave me the name Rebecca after St. Rebecca, St. Isaac's wife from the Bible. I always find a little special happiness when I hear Isaac and Rebecca remembered during church services...She is mentioned 5 times in the Wedding Service alone.

see http://www.weddingguide.co.uk/articles/ceremonies/greekorthodox.asp

for text but below are beautiful quotes from prayers of priest during wedding:

O Lord our God, who hast accompanied the servant of Abraham the Patriarch to Mesopotamia, sent there to seek a woman to wed his lord Isaac, and by asking for water at a meeting well, Thou hast revealed unto him to ask Rebecca for troth, do Thou bless the rings of these Thy servants (names) and confirm the word of their promise. Strengthen them in a holy union with and in Thee. For in the beginning Thou hast created male and female and by Thee the woman is joined to the man for help and the continuation of the race of man. Thou, O Lord our God, who hast sent forth truth upon Thine inheritance and Thy promise, look upon Thy servants our fathers and Thy chosen from generation to generation, and upon these Thy servants (name of groom and bride) and confirm their promise in faith and concord, in truth and love, for thou, O Lord, hast taught us to give promises and be confirmed in all things.

and

And thou, O bride, be magnified like Sarah, enjoy like Rebecca, multiply like Rachel, and rejoice with thine own husband, keeping the limits of the law, for in this way God is pleased

I'm sure that you can keep your name and patron saint if you wish, when you enter into the Orthodox church (and I know Janice was not implying otherwise in her very kind hearted words)...I know I'm attached to the name that my parents gave me http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Rebecca,

The onslaught you are suffering is a sure and certain sign that you are headed in the right direction. I would say that the demons who have been quiescent until now because nothing was bothering them are showing their discomfort. Now, what could possibly make a demon uncomfortable?

Dear Herman,

For shame that you would say such a thing as God must earn our trust! Anything God does not have has been "stolen" from Him! We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things simply because He is God!

Richard

[M.C. Steenberg]

Richard wrote:


For shame that you would say such a thing as God must earn our trust! Anything God does not have has been "stolen" from Him! We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things simply because He is God!

Ah, but even Irenaeus says that we must become accustomed to God -- even as God must become accustomed to us.

Certain things belong by right to God. But our hard hearts must be got through, and God proves Himself remarkably patient in this regard.

INXC, Matthew

[Herman Blaydoe]

Shame on me indeed. You and I both know this, however, human nature being what it is in a fallen world, trust is a very fragile thing. How truely blessed are they who can simply "trust" simply because...

Which "God" do we trust? Once bitten, twice shy. We try to believe in what we are taught about "God" and find it to be false. Trust is a process, it is a building. It takes time and effort. I could not trust the "God" that I learned about as a Protestant. I walked many paths before I found the God who deserved my trust and it was (is) a long and painful process.

Telling someone whose faith has been devastated to trust God simply because He is God ain't gonna cut much ice, no matter how true it is.

However shameful I may be, I still suspect that God will not strike me for posting what I did. I think that He is up to the challenge. If we but allow Him the opportunity, He will indeed "earn" our trust, even as David the king and Psalmist teaches us in the beautiful and haunting Psalm 22(21), quoted by our Lord on the Cross:

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

Isn't this a loss of trust? Christ takes on our sins AND our inability to trust. But then it goes on to say:

But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
Save Me from the lion's mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!

In my admittedly simple mind, this sounds like someone giving God an opportunity to build trust.

And then, most importantly:

You have answered Me.

Is this not God earning our trust (whether He really needs to or not?)

I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
You who fear the LORD, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

God is willing to earn our trust. What a wondrous teaching from our Lord, even as he hung dying on the cross! He has not left us destitute, even when we do not fear, love, and trust in God above all things simply because He is God. What a wonderful, loving, patient, and glorious God indeed, worthy of trust, love and praise. By the way, I challenge anybody to read that whole Psalm, with the image of Christ hanging from the cross firmly fixed in your mind, and not get chills up and down your spine.

Herman

[Irene]

Dear Rebecca Duncan,

I totally understand your feelings. I have a lot of trouble speaking to people IRL.

I converted to Orthodoxy just before I married. Terrible things happened within my family that caused me confusion that lasted several years and although I still remained part of the Church, I felt like an outsider forgotten about by all. Finally, when I thought I could not bare to be so separated from the Church any more, I wrote about my pain and confusion and emailed it to my Priest, he rang me the next day to talk everything through, conversations with him have helped a lot.

If you worry about sending email, you can print it and hand deliver/post to your/a local Priest who can be available to give you personal feedback and support.

Irene

Ps Rebecca & Rebecca Duncan

You are both lucky to have been given such an old Christian name by your parents. My parents named me Caryn and I took the name Irene when I was baptised on the Saints feast day (5/18 May) - This has always been awkward with my non-Orthodox family.

[Fr Averky]

Herman,

I must say, despite Matthew's as usual good words, I have to agree with Richard Leigh. With all due respect, I would like to present a different perspective on your statement, which is of no small significance, and could effect the spiritual lives of others should they take it to heart in the wrong way.

While St. David the Psalmist does many times express "doubts" they are expressing the doubts that every person can have during the dark times of his life. Yet he goes on with a message of surety and of hope.

Of course it seems to be very hard to trust in God when a person has been devasted, but with no reference to Rebecca Duncan, I would like to know why it is that most people are basicalluy not interested in putting their trust in God for most of their lives, chose to trust and rely upon themselves. And since they have never trusted God, how very easy it is for them to conveniently put the blame on God, who is supposed to know and see everything and should have come to their aid, right? That hold as much water as those obese persons who attempted to sue MacDonalds for not telling them it's food was very high in calories.

God is always there, His grace is always present, He is all good and is pure Love, and if we believe that even a little, in what way does He have to prove His worthiness of our trust? I can tell you I have lived through many personal and family tragedies which left me and mine completely devastated, but had we not had trust in God, matters would have been a hundred times worse, but it never even occurred to us although we had to suffer from such bitter circumstances that one could think that He had abandoned us.

I am safe in saying I have met several hundred of people in my life who were not just Christians, but every faith you might think of, and if they were believers, they had in common that they put all their hope and trust in God and many of them lived in dire poverty or had suffered from wars and natural calamties. These people never for one moment doubted the existence of God and His love for them It is known that St. John of Kronstadt received thousands of letters annualy from people of all nations and all religions asking him to pray for them because of extreme illness. He would pray, then send a response, telling the recepient gtop put his trust in God and as he knew Him, to ask forgiveness for his sins. There are thousands of attestations of healings from those letters.

For myself, as with most people who have been hurt and betrayed so very many times by others who protested their friendship, for whom they then put down their defenses and trusted, only to find those "friends" to be untrue, for many years I have preferred to put all my trust, all my hope in God, and Herman, He has never failed me, no not once. Rather than consideeing whether or not we can trust God, it woulkd be a far better idea to look around us and see the very manyu blessing we have recived from Him, consider that He does exist, and if He does, we should approach Him with love and gratitude, for Herman, what makes any of us so worthy of trust, espesically given our cynical attitude towards God and life in general-it works both ways you know. All of us have to get past the idea that we and our needs and feelings make us the center of the universe and move over, making room for God.

Richard Leigh. God bless you-I keep telling you, you are Orthodox in your heart.

Fr.A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Rebecca Duncan,


May I make a suggestion? Try very hard to get over your dissappointment with whatever made you see that the Roman Catholic Church was not the true Church as you had thought. There are still many millions Catholics who will be saved, for God knows the heart of each and every one of us, and He alone judges us. I was born and raised in a very Spanish Catholic family, attended only parochial schools and entered the seminary after high school. It was when I could take a really close up view of Catholicism, and began to read Church history seriously that I realized that if wsanted to be in the real One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, I simply had to become Orthodx.

My experience was extreme in that until I was in my teens the services of the Roman Catholic Churchwere solemn, prayerful and majestic, thdn they were replaced with "Folk Masses," "Clown Masses," "Tortilla Masses" and "Wonder Bread Masses." Beautiful churches were whitwashed, statues of the Virgin and the saints were suddenly gone and a bare table rplaced the beautiful high altar. From this geat trauma, I lost my faith, not in God but in the Catholic Church.

My embracing Orthodoxy brought on a"reconciliation"in my heart, for I was very angry with the Catholic Church that I had been forced to look elsewhere because all that I had known and loved no longer existed. Now, i look back with appreciation and gratitude for all those early Masses in Latin with their fine vesments, incense and candles and the strictness of teaching that the Church had at that time held, for it certainly was unknown to me at the time, but this was a very good preparation for finding Orthodoxy and participating in it beautful worship of God. God does everything in His way, and in His own time. If we can be patient, He always lets us know what it is all about.

But Rebecca, had there not been all that turmoil, and had I not seen the Catholic Church with different eyes,I wonder to this day if I might have just have stayed and missed the wonderful opportunity to come to know Orthodoxy better. I still have some good Catholic friends even though many dropped me when I converted

We should always truy to see our desire to become Orthodox as coming from God, allowing us out of millions of people to find the right path, while many more millions are rushing towards exile from God. Even though much is unsure and confusing for you right now, you certainly realize that fallen and sinful men will are not the answer; only God is, and He loves all of us no matter who we are and what we have done. I am a priest, and I know how unworthy I am to bear that name, for I am weak and sinful myself, so all I can do in my own small and poor way is to point people to Christ, who is our God, our Redeemer, and who loves us so tenderly. In the end, when we have nowhere to go, He is waiting for us with open arms. It is like the poem by Robert Frost; "Home is the place that whenever you go there, they always let you in."

All of us on Monachos will be praying for you, and in time thing will be better.

With love in Christ,

Father Averky

[Rebecca Duncan]

Thank you all for the responses. I have read them all, and thought about them. I am going to try to talk to my priest about it. Thanks again.

[Nina]

But listen especially to Father Averky, for he is by far the most experienced on this list, I should think, and will have not only better ideas, but a far better expression of them, being far more humble by long training and effort, than us beginners [like me] in the faith...


Arsenios

Wow! Look what I found! In addition to two posts of Fr. Averky (Memory Eternal!).