Living together

[Guest]

Hi, i am new to this site and i would welcome some insight on a matter. I am living with a woman who is Catholic. I am Orthodox. It is possible that in the future we will want to get married. Can this be done without one of us converting? The difficulty is that she is Irish- Catholic, so being catholic has a very strong meaning for her national identity. Actually I think it means more to her in terms of political orientation than spiritualy cause i get the feeling that otherwise she is skeptical about the christian faith in general. What does one do in a situation like this. God got us together and although i see that such a relationship does not conform with the "letter" of the law, I do think that it would be against the "spirit" of His law for me to end it. I am not willing to give up my faith either.

[Justin]

Is there no possibility of you two living in seperate places, and working on things from there? One main problem would be (I hope) that a Priest would have difficulties marrying you if you are living together before marriage. The problem with getting married wouldn't be because you are of two faiths (though that's something that needs to be discussed as it can have unforseen ramifications if you don't examine potential problems), but that you aren't living your faiths properly (not properly enough to meet my standards, you understand! I'm not judging you here, I mean only that a Priest would have difficulties, I would imagine, marrying you while you were in such a situation).

I'm sorry if this sounds... um... like not what you'd like to hear http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif I'm just trying to give a general answer that I think is correct. If it means anything to you, my wife and I were in a unique situation before our marriage, and it was a situation that was perhaps not unlike yours. We were staying in an "emergeny shelter" (basically one step above a typical homeless shelter) and sleeping in seperate beds, but were planning on moving into the same apartment (we couldn't stay in the shelter forever!) We had been engaged for about 9 months at that point, and convinced our priest that it'd be for the best for us to get married before we started "living together" (in our own place). This is perhaps not exactly the same as your situation, but I only bring it up so that you know that I've been in a similar position of being between a rock and a hard place, where none of the solutions look especially wonderful. I guess my main suggestion would be to contact your priest, and have her contact hers, and see what they say. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

Justin

PS. Just for further clarification, I mentioned the personal info so that you wouldn't think I was trying to judge or condemn you... in other words, I sort of know personally where you're "coming from"

[Justin]

Oops.. made a big booboo http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif I said:


not properly enough to meet my standards, you understand! I'm not judging you here, I mean only that a Priest would have difficulties, I would imagine, marrying you while you were in such a situation

I should have said:

...I'm not saying that you are not proper enough to meet my standards, you understand! I'm not judging you here, I mean only that a Priest would have difficulties, I would imagine, marrying you while you were in such a situation.

[Owen Jones]

Can we have some clarity? It's not God's will that Christians have sex outside of Christian marriage. It's presumptuous for most of us, most of the time, to even claim that we know what God's will is, except in the negative. And as a practical matter, living together before marriage is a high predictor of divorce.

Theologically, Virginity is a prize of womanhood of great value to God, and when we take a woman's virginity without the sanctifying of Christian marriage, there will be a price or penalty extracted for that at some point.

[Richard Leigh]

Hi Christos,

I understand your question to be, Is there any problem in a mixed marriage when the mixture is
Orthodox male with Catholic female? The problem is hightened by the likelyhood that the female is not Christian (hence not really Catholic), but has socio-cultural (and no doubt familial), and possibly politically ties to the institution.

To me this sounds like a disaster.

I would think you'd want to go to your own priest for help in examining your personal involvement in the situation.

Richard

[Jurretta J. Heckscher]

Dear Christos,

Welcome. I agree that this is a situation to be discussed with your priest, but I do have a couple of thoughts.

First, I know a number of such Orthodox-Catholic marriages that do work, though I admit that I don't know if the Catholics still require the non-Catholic partner to promise that the children will be raised Catholic (that used to be the case, and if it still is, that is obviously problematic).

In general, though, Orthodoxy and Catholicism have enough in common that if both partners are strongly grounded in their faith, commonality and mutual love and goodwill will win out over difference (for example, you can share prayers to the Mother of God without having to debate the Immaculate Conception; and you can honor Christ in your home without having to debate the merits of Papal infallibility). Teaching your children will require love, knowledge, and honesty of a special kind, but it can be done, and done right.

Obviously, this is easier if the Orthodox partner is New Calendar, so that Christmas is not at different times (an especial challenge for children); differing Pascha dates are usually more easily managed.

But if one partner's faith is more cultural than heartfelt--well, that is a problem. If it's any consolation, I'm not sure that it's much more of a problem in your situation than it is for a marriage between a devout Orthodox and someone who is only culturally Orthodox--because the real difficulty is not the difference of faith (and as I said, the differences of faith between Orthodox and Catholics are not such that they will necessarily hinder a marriage where both partners are committed to God), but the importance of faith. To you, your faith may be--I hope is--all-important. To your possible fiancee, faith may actually mean very little. If so, that is the issue that I would be presumptuous enough to suggest that you address first, before seeking to resolve the question of Catholic-Orthodox difference.

May God lead you both to discernment of His loving will for you both.

Yours in Christ,

Jurretta

[Fr Averky]

Dear Christos,

Forgive me if I sound harsh, but I hardly think that you would have the discernement to be able to say "that it would be against the spirit of His law to end it." End what, living in sin? I can hardly imagine that God would bless such such a situation, Christos. there is no situation in which the Orthodox Church would bless two people living together who have not had their relationship crowned by the church.

The picture you paint is not a happy one - the woman with whom you live is nominally Roman Catholic, but as you say, more culturally than spiritually. If she has no spiritual approach to her faith, what then can you share other than physicality? Also, what kind of committment can you possibly have to your own Orthodox Faith if you can openly be fornicating with someone and calmly discuss it is if you were discusssing a luncheon menu? I am amazed and scandalized by your attitude! Since Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Church has so lost any resemblance to Orthodoxy that there would be very little to share with a Catholic spouse. Today. Roman Catholics have become neither "fish nor foul," for they are no longer solid Cathilcs, nor are they confirmed Protestants - they are somehwere in between. An Orthodox Christian cannot fully share a life in Christ with anyone other than another Orthodox Christian.


You must realize Christos, that since you are openly living in sin, you are forbidden to partake of the Divine Mysteries, for it would be to your condemnation. As it stands, you are no longer in the Orthodox Church, and until the woman with whom you live is willing to embrace the Faith, you will remain out of communion. This has nothing to do with "calendar," or praying to the Virgin together, or celebrating Christmas together, for in this case, they would be but bandages on a serious wound. I just cannot imagine any Orthodox priest allowing you in your present situation to receive communion. Just a few years ago, in a nearby city, a Greek woman was also living with her boyfriend. The priest of her local Greek Orthodox parish told her that she could not receive communion until she had maried the man. She and the man were then married in a civil service, but stil the priest refused her the Divine Mysteries because she wasa not married as far as the Church was concerned.

Christos, this is a very serious matter, and your personal opinion, or that of your girl-friend or of any other person is not of importance here: you need to repent and live in different places until you decide what you are going to do. I can tell you that in my twenty years experience as a priest, only a very few mixed marriages ever really work out, but with a lot of work it can be possible. I agreed to perform the crowning service for a young Russian woman in my first parish to a man who belongs to the Dutch Reformed church. Even though he did formally sign a document promising that all children from thier marriage would be baptized Orthodox, she moved to Michigan with him, where there are a great number of Dutch Reformed people. Sad to say, in a few years, she had left Orthodxy, and now she and her children are Protestants.

Christos, we are not just discussing "love" here, we are discussing salvation, and that is the true aim of the Mystery of Marriage. I suggest that you talk to your local Orthodox priest soon. It is true, that now many marriages are mixed, but it takes a lot of compromise, and the two individuals never really become One, because they are not sharing the same beliefs and faith. Think about this and pray. If your girl friend really loves you, then she should be willing to follow you in all things. Do not risk eternal life in order to have your way - there is no possibility of God's blessing in the situation in which you presently live. I will admit, that if you are very strong in your Orthodox faith, then, in time, you may bring your non-Orthodox spouse to the church. But this means that you will have to be very firm and uncompromising in everything that is Orthodox. You cannot bring someone to Orthodxy if you are unwilling to live it yourself.

You are free to contact me privately if you wish, but what I have to say is quite public, and it is a warning to all Orthodox Christians. Again, I find myself complaining that people come up with all kinds of "opinions," when they all they really are doing is showing a frightening lack of knowledge of their Orthodox Faith. Our society is badly tainted with the poison of New Age thinking, where everything is "so nice," and everyone is "so nice ." "we all worship the same God," and "it really is the same Jesus, isn't it?" and so on. Well, those notions are all foolish lies, and woe to those who allow themsleves to fall into such notions. I sternly warn you, sir, that you are literally playing with fire - eternal fire!

Please forgive my firm words, but they are said out of the greatest love for you and the woman with whom you wish to share your life. Christos, for the sake of your salvation, and for that of the woman you say you love - if you really believe that God brought you two together, and I personally do not know you, therefore I have no opinion in the matter, then talk to her, and tell her how important your Orthodox faith is to you, and how wonderful it would be for your family to have you married in the Orthodox Church, not just living in public sin. If she loves you, then she will be willing to share your life in the fullness, then your children will be baptized in the Orthodox Church and you as a family will pray tgether and life the life in Christ together. I do not mean to sound brutal and uncaring -to the contrary, I grieve to see you in such a state. I am in no way condemning you or your live-in girl friend but I condemn the sin that you are comitting. If you are from a traditional Greek family, I would imagine that your situation is also very difficult for your parents, especially your mother. I myself will pray for you, and now and ask all the members of the community to pray that you will see what you are doing, and that we will hear that you are going to be married in the Church, and then we will be able to rejoice with you, for now, we can only be sad for you. God bless you and your young lady, Christos, and may God grant that you both will make the decsion to help save each other - what better show of love could you ask for?

With much love and concern in Christ,

Father Averky

[Andonis]

Hello all,

i relate closely to Christos's situation, with some slight differences. i was living for about a year with my ex girlfreind, whom was Greek orthodox like me. Living together out of wedlock most definitely destroyed our relationship eventually, and we both now bare the scars of our transgressions. i too, like many modern young people thought that it simply is just what everybody does these days when they fall in love. but my heart, right form the start would tell me that what i was doing was wrong. but in my egotistical and selfish state i refused to listen to it.
i lay many sleepless nights wandering why is it that i feel so bad? i mean i have everything a married person does, without the wife or children..yet i was deeply disturbed, constantly looking for a way out.

when i decided that we should live apart again, and to abstain from fornication, i was met with anger and resentment. i was bewildered to think, here is this woman whom is meant to love me, telling me that she wanted nothing to do with me if we lived apart. what a dose of reality that was. now that we have been apart for quite some time, i realise that it was a blessing for us to break up, for she does not have the religious convictions that i have, even though she is culturally orthodox. our lives have taken completely different paths.
ever since discovering orthodoxy more deeply, i realised God's law was already written in my heart, and that is what kept my conscience in a disturbed state. when it came time for my relationship to face the truth, it quickly crumbled because the foundations where laid out all wrong. seperating from her was very painful, and still disturbs my emotional state and the level of trust i have in women. i am continually now paying the penalty for my mistake. but i accept the reproach as spiritual coaching so that i can become a better Christian.

Andonis

[Fr Averky]

Dear Adonis,

Thank you for you good words - you have much to teach the rest of us from your sad personal experience, and I hope that Christos will "hear" your words. In the end, as difficult and painful it was, you know that you made the right choice. Do not let this spoil your trust fo women in general, the poor girl also thought that all could be well in the situation, but God did not bless. In time the pain will pass, and if you can remain firm in your resolve to stay pure, rich will be your reward, if not in this life, then in the next. Again you surprize and touch my heart by your honesty. God sees your struggle, and will grant you much grace and many blessings for this. I was young once, and I understand your grief and your sense of loss; but still you did the right thing for yourself and the girl. May the lesson you learned stay every in your heart and mind.

Dear Jurretta, now that I am calmed down, as it were, your words were very kind to Christos, but we can all hope and pray that he will read Adonis' story and will learn from him. I take it you have not left for Greece yet, Adonis, when you do, please let us know so that we can pray for your safe journey.

With much appreciation,

Father Averky

[Heather M]

Dear all...

This subject hits so close to home with me. I am sad to say that I also was involved in this similar situation, but with a few differences--the major one being that there were children involved. After "discovering" the Orthodox church, and doing some reading about it, I felt more and more guilty in the kind of public and outright sin in which I was living. I knew I had to resolve the situation, and not only that, but I could not bring myself to attend church regularly while continuing to remain in that situation. When I proposed that we seperate and abstain...I, like Andonis, was met with anger and resentment also. The comment was made as to why I couldn't just attend a "regular" church. But I knew in my heart what I had to do.

I found my own apartment and moved out last summer, with much encouragement and continued support of the priest of my sister's church. The funny and curious thing was at how disappointed that everyone else seemed to be in me when I left him. I had become financially dependant on him, so not I struggle a great deal to make ends meet. But somehow we pull through each month...even though the numbers always come up negative.

I don't know if I'm in any position to offer up any advice, but I will say that I thought i knew what God's will for me was while I was in that situation. I was so blinded by what I wanted, that I couldn't see any further. Everything seemed to be so "right" so great, that I couldn't imagine that we were doing anything wrong. What a fool I was.

I recently had the proper marriage explained to me by an Orthodox priest. He said that in a marriage, that a man should love his wife the way that Christ loves His Church. I think that at least in my own personal experience, I've had a very flawed view of what love actually is.

Forgive me for rambling on so long.
your continued prayers are much appreciated,
the sinful heather

[cale]

Love has a way of backfiring so that we can admit we have never loved. Admit the truth about who and what you really love and the truth will meet you with love.

[Richard Leigh]

To all and sundry,

This is the teaching of the mote and the beam. The sin we see in our neighbor is as a mote in his eye, while the reason we can see it is because of a similar sin, only bigger, as a beam in our own. Our Lord warns that the judgment we judge on the other will fall back on us to the proportionate difference beteen mote and beam.

Thus we discover the sin against which we struggle and appeal to Christ for mercy, which is the removal of the beam.

It is only upon the removal of our beams that we can be of any benefit in removing our neighbor's motes.

Grant this, O Lord, unto us all.

Richard

[Guest]

Thanks all for the replies especially hieromonk Averky. I understand that the way we live is not how it should be. Marriage is in my mind but in todays society things are more complicated. I am considering as very serious the legal consequences of getting married and the life changing consequences and responsibility of having children. I met her 3 years ago when i was studying. We were hardly together for a month. We kept contact by distance for two years. So after that we started thinking about making our life together. We decided that she would come to where I lived. But we could not be sure that she will manage to adopt to greek life. Moving is a big step. We wouldnt want to get into a marriage and especially have children when we wouldnt be sure whether it is viable. We are together for a year now so I think the time is coming to make the decision. I apologise if my story is provoking. Your posts helped me realise the gravity of the situation better. God be with you

[John Wilson]

Dear Christo,
I hesitate to respond as I really don't know if I can add anything to those reponses you have already received. I will try to express what is on my heart though and I hope you will understand and not be offended.

Marriage is a commitment that cannot entertain questions as to whether or not things will work out in the future. When you marry, you commit yourselves to each other and to working through every difficulties you will face together, whatever they may be, anything less is unacceptable. Of course, we often fail, but we repent and try harder so as not to fall into the same sin again.

It is a statitically proven fact that the majority of marriages where couples live together for a time before marriage, end in divorce. I believe the reason for this is because there is no true commitment in their marriage. The simple fact that they lived together for a time, as a 'trial' to see if things could work out, is clear evidence of their unwillingness to commit to each other and by doing the same you are putting the health of your future marriage at a distinct disadvantage. If you truly love each other, you should live separately until such time as you marry. Please understand that this is for the sake of your future marriage, all other moral considerations aside.

I fear that I have not expressed myself too well at all. Please forgive my literary stumbling.

John.

[Chuck S.]

Dear Christos,


Everyone here, esepcially Fr. Averky gave great insight into your situation. But I'll try to add my 2 cents to this...

You, (not just you but all of us) must remember that marriage is one of the 7 Mysteries (Sacraments) of the Church. Yes, marriage is a commitment, yet it is so much more. It's not just a contract, but a mysterious joining of man and woman as they become one flesh.

Our Lord Jesus explained that a man and woman literally (yet mysteriously) become ONE flesh in marriage. Just as we literally die and rise with Christ in baptism, (yet mysteriously) a man and woman become one flesh in the Sacrament of marriage.

When a couple is joined together in the Mystery of Holy Matrimony, they are then, seen by God as one flesh. St. Paul wrote that the husband belongs to the wife and the wife to the husband in mutual submission to each other.

This situation of oneness, unity, submission simply does not exist outside of marriage.
Her flesh is still her flesh, and your flesh is still your flesh. Even if you are "sharing" in pre-marital relations, you really aren't sharing. You are still seperate. And no matter how often people are involved in pre-marital sex, they may never have that closeness, that union that was and is intended for marriage by God.

Marriage, and sex in marriage is a gift of God. Yet the gift can truly only be received in Holy Matrimony, not before. before marriage, her flesh is not yours, and vice versa. You do not belong to each other in mutual submission. You are not literally one, as Christ explained. And no matter your good intentions, outside the bonds of the Sacrament, a man and woman are not one, and thus in a sense, when having pre-marital relations, one is stealing from the other, as well as robbing oneself of the fullness of the true meaning of pleasure when a couple is married.


Before marriage, before that union of man and wife any sexual relations are about "me and my pleasure"...even if one doesn't mean relations to be selfish, it still simply cannot, in any way be the same as in marriage, when a man and woman are truly joined together as one.




In Christ, Thomas

[Fr Averky]

Dear Thomas,

thank you for your very well said and heartful contribution. It is so touching to me to see, how out of concern and Christian love, all have hastened to help Christos to see the proper perspective of his present situation. Let us all pray that he will listen to the good advice he has received, and will set matters aright-soon.

Father Averky

[John Wilson]

Dear Thomas,

I wanted to say much the same as you have but I was not happy with anything I wrote. I am glad that I did not post anything more as you expressed this mystery much better than my best efforts could have.

One thing I want to add. Earlier, Father Averky mentioned the salvific nature of the marriage sacrament, and indeed all of the sacraments are for our salvation. The Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians that if we approach the taking of the Eucharist in an unworthy manner, we bring judgement upon ourselves. Surely this should be our attitude towards all of the sacraments, so that they will be filled with God's grace and not bring judgement.

I pray that God will give both of you a strong desire to follow His will so that your relationships with Him and with each other will be blessed and filled with grace.

John

[Guest]

We have set a date for summer 2004. There is no problem with her being a catholic, the Greek Orthodox Church accepts marriages between catholics and orthodox. I hope evertything goes well, thanks for the replies.