Orthodox lifestyles

[Andonis]

thought i'd start a new thread on lifestyles of Orthodox Christians, in the secular world. i would be very interested in people's day to day routines to learn and adopt as many orthodox habits as possible. i know myself that i have become increasingly over the years a person whom loves long periods of solitude. i have always loved the family life, which links in closely with my Greek heritage, whereby close family links are of prime importance. i am finding myself less and less interested in idle affairs such as having coffee or going out for drinks with people whom are only interested in idle chat. this has become more of a problem at work, where my colleagues seek to go out for a drink and a celebration at the drop of a hat, when i would rather be home reading an orthodox text or sitting in silence and contemplation. i have started to appear to be very anti social. it seems that you are not measured by your christian deeds, but if you can crack the best jokes at the Christmas party, no matter how crude, you gain legendary status.

night clubs, pubs really disrupt my inner peace so i tend to avoid them like the plague. other than my work, my life seems to be very quiet, spent mostly in study and preparation for Sunday's divine liturgy. many in the secular world would describe my life as extreemly boring and that i have aged before my time as i am only 27 years of age. but many of the secular practises that i used to hold in high regard such as even renting a DVD have started to loose their appeal. so much so that i recently i sold my "trinity of evil" ie, DVD, Video, and TV and have since discovered immense peace. i know i should pray a lot more than what i do, quite slack in that area. would be interested in your own comments, stories....

[demetrios karaolanis]

I think that boring in the eyes of the world is not always such a bad thing. If the ways of the world are disrupting the spiritual well being of a person I think it is fine to forsake them.

[Cetti]

I guess sometimes it`s not that easy to give up those social activities. For example, I`m a student and as Christmas is coming, I`m invited to a lot of parties. I know I shouldn`t celebrate Christmas this way, now that we fast for it, but if I refuse going there (as I have already done) I`ll also lose a lot. So here I am, caught between one option and the other. I also feel like a weird person when I go to certain parties because I have the feeling I`m doing somenthing wrong; on the other hand, I`d have to go there so as to maintain my social life ( I have to build up some relations which might be useful for my career). Either I go or I refuse to go, I have a feeling of discomfort - because I can`t say no with all my heart as Andonis did. In fact, I`d love to go to some parties, but they are always set during fast days. What can I do? It`s pretty difficult nowadays to keep the rules of an Orthodox life with so many days of fasting, rules etc. That`s why I think Andonis`s topic is very appropriate.

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

My advice, Cetti, would be to go to all the parties but to drink only soda or tonic water. Then you could keep the fast, without loading your system with unwanted alcohol, and make those necessary social contacts.

the seeker.

[demetrios karaolanis]

What cetti said is true there are many things that I have to work on myself during the fast. I try to keep out of open feasts and so on, but it is hard when good friends invite you.

[Andonis]

another thing i have a problem with is the frenetic pace of the modern world. all my colleagues ever talk about is progress, increased salaries, work harder, buy a better car, better house, more holidays. it seems that it is never ending. in all that, try incorporating an orthodox lifestyle of prayer, fasting, church attendance etc. its very hard to know where to draw the line with secular world practises and focus on your spiritual development. especially in a world that is becoming ever more fragmented and atheistic.

what suprises me is that despite the frantic pace of the world, people dedicate enormous amounts of time on socialising in what little time they have left over, instead of seeking inner calm, and the practise of heysichia. that constant incessant need for noise and stimulation is disruptive to spirtual growth.

[Elizabeth Riggs]

Each time I had a new office or cubicle, I would have my priest come (after hours) and bless it - just as he blesses our homes. I put up a (usually small) icon corner - sometimes just one icon. Just that alone made the office more of a sanctuary. When I didn't have an office, I put icons up on the inside of my locker door. Again, that gave me a bit of a sanctuary. No matter how frenetic the pace of the moment, I would set aside a few minutes every hour to say the prayer of St. John Chrysostom for that hour and at the 3rd, 6th and 9th hours to say the Prayer of the Hours. Maintaining this kind of momentum helped me. When I was in a clinical situation with students and with crises breaking out, I would simply say the Jesus Prayer at each opportunity. I deliberately wore a small chotky on my left wrist - it set me apart from the others and made it clear to me where my priorities should be. It was very comforting to have it against my skin - again as a reminder of where my priorities should be. Many times I had students join me for my brief prayers - they would see me, know what I was doing, and simply come stand near me.

These are the things I have done to help me cope with the business day. I hope they give you some ideas.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

[Elizabeth Riggs]

Each time I had a new office or cubicle, I would have my priest come (after hours) and bless it - just as he blesses our homes. I put up a (usually small) icon corner - sometimes just one icon. Just that alone made the office more of a sanctuary. When I didn't have an office, I put icons up on the inside of my locker door. Again, that gave me a bit of a sanctuary. No matter how frenetic the pace of the moment, I would set aside a few minutes every hour to say the prayer of St. John Chrysostom for that hour and at the 3rd, 6th and 9th hours to say the Prayer of the Hours. Maintaining this kind of momentum helped me. When I was in a clinical situation with students and with crises breaking out, I would simply say the Jesus Prayer at each opportunity. I deliberately wore a small chotky on my left wrist - it set me apart from the others and made it clear to me where my priorities should be. It was very comforting to have it against my skin - again as a reminder of where my priorities should be. Many times I had students join me for my brief prayers - they would see me, know what I was doing, and simply come stand near me.

These are the things I have done to help me cope with the business day. I hope they give you some ideas.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

[Andonis]

thats interesting Elizabeth, cause i'm pretty sure that if i put up an icon in my office, i would be attacked from all angles. the politically correct would come at me ferociously, as it has almost been built into our organisational policy that religion is a personal matter and is not to be brought into the work place.
but i guess i can pray under my breath..

[Elizabeth Riggs]

Dear Andonis -

What kind of martyrdom do you think we suffer in the US? This is the martyrdom - to be thought "politically incorrect," to be scorned, to be told we are not to bring religion into the workplace, etc.

It took a while, but I finally got to the point I just didn't care what others thought. What was important to me was to be able to "be Orthodox," all the time, all the way through, not just on Sunday. If you lived in the South, every fundamentalist Protestant in the organization would try to convert you between your office and the water cooler. My way of dealing with it was having my office blessed, having my little "icon corner" and retreating for prayer on a regular basis. Not very brave, actually, but I don't have the gift for words in conversations. I can't ever think of the "right" answer at the instant it is needed. All I can do is pray - and I'm so distractable that I need that icon to help focus my mind.

But each of us will handle our daily situations differently. You will find the "right" way for you to handle it as you grow in your Orthodoxy and mature in life. You are still very young - and that is not a "slap in the face," just an observation from someone old enough to be your grandmother! :-)

[demetrios karaolanis]

that is very true. when I am asked if I do not like being taunted I say that it is a blessing to be thought worthy to suffer persecution in the name of the lord.

[Andonis]

thank you both Elizabeth and Demetrios. i know that deep inside that i too would be glad to suffer persecution in the name of the Lord. the more i grow in spiritual stature, the more courageous i become...

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

An interesting dialogue. The UK will be introducing measures by July 2003 to combat discrimination at work on grounds of religion and these will surely cover private expressions of faith including those at the workplace. If for instance you work in an open plan office and put up an icon in your work space, who could object? And a fortiori so if you have an office to yourself.

You may incidentally have read or heard that the new Archbishop-designate of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, is starting a moral crusade to reconnect people to their religious and traditional roots. This may help to take the covers off an open profession of religious belief in the UK, though anti-catholicism is still alive and well in many quarters. Orthodoxy is largely invisible in the public sense in Britain, more's the pity, but I keep hoping that Easter processions may appear in Camden Town, where there is a large Greek Cypriot community and several churches.

the seeker

[Owen Jones]

Meanwhile. Rowan Williams will do more to destroy Christianity in Britain than anyone since Henry VIII.

[sinjin smithe]

I don't know much about Rowan Williams. Why do you say that Owen?

[Richard McBride]

"Meanwhile. Rowan Williams will do more to destroy Christianity in Britain than anyone since Henry VIII."

I've heard these rumblings. Makes me wonder what the Queen has against "Christianity" -- the tiny bit left to the Emerald Isle.
And I suppose every Orthodox convert knows (Certainly, those from 'Episcoplaianism') -- that not that long ago many Orthodox were allowed Communion under the Episcopal banner in England. The apostacy of the past three decades has ended all that, of course.

"Easter"?

Is that name from the Roman or a Teutonic goddess? It seems that everyone but Anglos use the Jewish/Greek form of Pascha. Like a fish bone in the neck, we seem athwart the flow in so much.

[Owen Jones]

The Queen has only slightly more say in who the Archbishop is than she does in who the PM is. She gets to choose from two names, I think, but her advisors tell her who she must pick I should think for political reasons, not theological.

In any case, there are about as many Anglican clergy in Britain as there are faithful. About 2 per cent of the population I think.


oaj

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Including stipendiary and licensed but unpaid clerics, there around 10,000 Anglican clergy practising in the UK at present. At the latest count the numbers regularly attending CofE churches had just over-topped the million mark, so Owen's gloomy predictions are justified. But let's hold any judgement on Dr Williams until he has had time to prove himself; at least he is going to make our national Church a visible presence for interesting, rather than squalid, reasons (cf the RC church in various parts of the world - including the so-called Emerald Isle).

And regarding appointments to the see of Canterbury, the PM doesn't have to accept either of the names presented to him if there is another, better, candidate in view. At least Rowan Williams is a theologian and thinker who will infuse some life into national debate, and restore some sense of the claims of religion to be a centre stage presence in national life.

I understand the term "Easter" to be derived from a Norse or Teutonic name, Oistre. But we Anglos also use the term "paschal", as in paschal lamb, so are not as insular, or parochial, as may have been implied by some of the previous comments.

the seeker

[Loretta Smith]

Thank you Elizabeth and also those of you who silently witness your faith in the workplace.

A few years ago I noticed little icons on the desks of two workers, one Russian Orthodox and one Ukranian. I watched these two fellows closely for months, trying to understand their ways. No religion talk occured, but their manner of doing their jobs and their interactions with the rest of the staff was noticeably different. Slowly I became aware of the workings of the Holy Spirit through them. Without saying a word they spoke volumes to my heart. They will always be in my prayers.

Loretta

[Andonis]

i am really happy that this Christmas is going to be just with my immediate family, parents and siblings. historically we have had bigger parties which really had turned into pretentious feasts, where people would turn up almost as if performing a chore. it really lacked the genuine Christmas love and appreciation for one another, people were more concerned about the quality of the wine and how much food they could get in their stomachs.
i'm really enjoying all the changes big or small that reflect a more orthodox way of thinking. although our relatives and freinds see our family as becoming increasingly antisocial, i feel more complete and strengthened by our stance. no longer are we compelled to be crowd pleasers, we owe a duty first and foremost to our individual spirits.

Merry Christmas to all
Andonis

[demetrios karaolanis]

I think that that is a good idea. christmas is always best celebrated when you can concentrate on it's meaning among a small circle of family.

[Andonis]

Demetrios,

i'm glad you think so. there is so much focus today on the grander, the bigger, the better without trying to disect exactly why? for instance even the greek wedding celebrations here in melbourne are all about, which reception did you book, how much did the wedding dress and the suits cost, what's on the menu? little to no thought is given to the meaning of the sacrament, and its importance as a God blessed vehicle of salvation. meanwhile businesses are getting richer and richer seeking to satiate the modern unappeasable consumer.

its funny that the more you analyse modern life, the more you detect how much it has strayed from authentic orthodox thinking.

[John Wilson]

Demetri, a small change we have made over the last couple of years is to exchange gifts on January 1st (Saint Basil the Great) instead of the western tradition of Christmas day. It allows Christ to be the focus on Christmas instead of the anticipation of ripping open wrapping paper to see what loot we got this year. We also try to read what we can about Saint Basil on January 1st and I want to get into the habit of our family reading the lives of the saints of each day. For all the greeks out there, do you know the reason for the coin in the Vassilopita? I had been cutting vassilopita on new years day for almost ten years before I learned it's origin.

[Andonis]

hi John,
would love to hear more about your experience in Greece, where do you live, what you do for a living? i have thought about a more permanant stay in Greece but am anxious about all these things, despite my Greek background. i am also from Melbourne, Australia. this thread may not be the most appropriate, may need to continue under casual conversation heading...

[demetrios karaolanis]

hello john
I only know that the person who finds the coin gets good luck. I have not learned it's origin though.

[John Wilson]

The tradition originates from a miracle of Saint Basil the Great of Cappadocia (Agios Vassilis). The ruler of Cappadocia (or the emperor?) had placed a heavy tax on St Basil (or his diocese) knowing full well that he would not be able to pay. However, the many faithful followers, gave him money and jewels to help pay the taxes. When the ruler saw that St. Basil had raised the necessary funds, he was amazed and had a complete change of heart, refusing to take the money. St Basil wished to return the money and jewels to all those who had given them yet he had no way of knowing who to return the money and jewels and rings to, with people arguing over what belonged to who. So he ordered many cakes baked and in them placed the coins and jewels; he then distributed these cakes to the people and by a great miracle, each person found in his cake that which he had given towards paying the tax.

[demetrios karaolanis]

thank you for the information I could not find anything on that anywhere. I love to study greek traditions and history. I mostly like the byzantine empire and the emperors.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Demetrios,

Who is your favorite emperor and why?

[demetrios karaolanis]

justinian, because he was a great conqueror of many lands that the empire had held previously. he had a dream to rebuild a great empire and came close. He was also strong enough to quell the great nika riots. I rather like many of the emperors though.

[Andonis]

another thought i've been pondering of late is the craving of lost innocense which i sometimes feel. i often wonder whether it was my repeated transgressions into often depraved immorality, that is now responsible for my pessimism and suspiciousness of life and people in general. in one way, i think of my wordly knowledge as a tool necessary for survival in a world of moral chaos and double standards. at the same time, its also what has caused me to isolate myself, and made me unnaproachable to others whom may be genuinely seeking from me a display of Christian brotherhood. i'm finding that i prefer more and more to retreat into my solitude, and spend time with God alone, than to try to actively demonstrate my Christianity with others. i ask myself whether this is selfish? any thoughts?

[demetrios karaolanis]

I do not think so the definition of stewardship I think I could have read on this sight is using the talent that god gives you and if that talent is a real talent for the ascetic life then you can use what god gave you and attain personal sanctity.

[Owen Jones]

I don't wish to sound like I'm carping, Demetrios, but there really is no such thing as personal sanctity. One man's sanctity changes the whole of creation. It may have an irreducably personal aspect to it, but to describe or define it as personal sanctity misses the mark.

A good text on this is the intro to Spiritual Counsels by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain. But philosophically we ought to know that there is no such thing as a person, as such.

[demetrios karaolanis]

I understand, I just used the wrong term, I just meant to be the best and most devoted you can be, personal sanctity does not exist but I just meant to say to work hard at a spiritual life to the best of your abilities. thank you for pointing this out though.

[M.C. Steenberg]

But philosophically we ought to know that there is no such thing as a person, as such.

And such is one of the great errors of philosophy that the Church has corrected. There may be no such thing as a person who is not a member of the whole community of persons, whose activities do not effect the whole family of humanity; but the very essence of Christian anthropology, as it rests in a Trinitarian theology, is that true human personhood has its very root in the genuine personhood of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

In Christian philosophy, there definitively is such thing as a person.

INXC, Matthew

[Owen Jones]

Perhaps what I should have said, Matthew, is that I have no independent existence of my own. My existence is contingent on God. There is no such thing as a pure individual. And I think classical philosophy would be consistent with that. Of course, Christian doctrine elevated those of lowly estate to cosmic significance. The great cosmic battle between God and Satan runs through every person's soul, regardless of their station in life, whereas before it was the monarch who represented divine presence. So it is really the Trinity which gives me my "personhood" if you will. Without that, I am a product of impersonal forces.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Demetrios,

I am a philosophical nitpicker.

Owen Jones

[demetrios karaolanis]

that's alright though at many times. it is always good to learn a new thing.

[sinjin smithe]

Speaking of meaningless ventures in the terms of Ecclesiastes, today we have the Super Bowl in the US. This great event is symbol of the pomp and materialistic decadence of the US. It used to be a game, and now it has become something else. Anyway, I find myself watching less TV now as I continue on my spiritual journey. I used to watch TV quite a bit but now I don't watch much. I find that it is boring to me and I would rather read and be in silence than have the distraction that TV provides. Has anyone had a similar experience?

[Andonis]

yes sinjin, i am in exactly the same position. i too have virtually no interest in TV and video, in fact i advertised all these entertainment type items in the local paper and sold them. i haven't missed them one bit. if i do feel like a movie i go and watch a foreign film at an independant cinema. i completely avoid the idiotic films that come out of hollywood. Hollywood has shaped the pathological lifestyles of contemporary society to a large degree.

i too sinjin have it down to two past times. reading and silence with minimal social contacts. it has been a gradual process but one that has brought peace to my spirit. its amazing how little in fact man needs to be happy, and what he is lead to beleive he needs.

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Yes, ditto, Sinjin; and this in spite of having all of the choices provided by cable TV. But TV does have its place in providing information on occasion as well as for entertainment (at least, it does in the UK). But then, I don't watch soap opera-type programmes; real life is so much more interesting, and vastly more entertaining.

the seeker

[John Wilson]

Prior to last Pascha, my wife and I decided to "fast" from television as well as the usual suspects. Since then we have only turned it on a couple of times for specific reasons, but once they finished, the TV was off immediatly. I actually find it disturbing to have on now whereas I used to be a bit of an addict, hopelessly flicking through the channels in the hope that I would find something worth watching, all the while knowing that I wouldn't.

The great thing though is our children don't miss it either and have stated that they prefer not watching TV. Seriously one of the best things we have ever done!

John

[Donald Wescott]

Sinjin and All,

Though I tend to be somewhat of a lurker on this list, I was fascinated by this topic and decided to drop my 2 cents worth in..

At the start of the New Year, my wife and I also made a decision to "fast " from television on Wednesday and Friday. Though it is only a beginning, and we have slipped some, it is , I believe, a good start towards eliminating the "one eyed god" more completely. Although I doubt that we may ever completely rid ourselves of television, it certainly won't hurt to be far less involved with it. American programmers seem to be making that prospect easier for me all the time though.

In terms of some of the comments regarding Hollywood. I would have to disagree to some extent. Though there is certainly a lot of trash passing for entertainment coming from the "left coast", there have also been a series of excellent films in the last several years with some valid and interesting things to say. For example, The MAtrix and the two Lord of The Rings films, as well as O Brother Where Art Thou and My Bigg Fat Greek Wedding. Thanks for bringing up a good topic that deserves attention.

His Unworthy Servant,
Donald Eusebios

[John Wilson]

Saint Kosmas Aitolos wrote in the 18th century that the devil would come into our homes through a box in our lounge rooms and that he would have his horns on our roofs.

If you stop to think about the kinds of things we allow into our living rooms which we would otherwise never consider letting through the front door of our homes, you can probably appreciate how prophetic this was.

[George Hawkins]

I was away from New Zealand for 5 years, and during this time I became Orthodox. I was living in Japan, and I didn't watch too much TV. Coming back to New Zealand, just a quick glance through the TV listings was more than enough to convince me that I would not be missing anything if I didn't watch TV. There is so much more to do with one's time, and much that is wasted in front of the TV could be spent reading or in prayer. I do still have a TV, but it is on very infrequently.

[George Hawkins]

In reply to an earlier posting about some good films from Hollywood, of course, while financed by Hollywood, Lord of the Rings is a new Zealand film!

[Richard McBride]

UNorthodox lifestyles

“...Lord of the Rings is a new Zealand film!”

At least there are a couple of anti-God films that Hollywood failed to produce. That awful little beast, Harry Potter, is another.

But, Surely (you may say), I over-react. How can such innocent little fairy tales harm?

Unhappily for the new age genre who support Harry Potter and all such trash, there is no in-between way. There is only that which applauds the Lord; and all else supports un-Godly ways: so-called white witches, all those grim fairy tales we cut our teeth on (thanks to this forsaken generation), playing around with non-religions such as the variety spawned in the name of Buddha, etc.

If your pet quirk fails to VERY PRECISELY serve God, you might ask yourself, whom do you serve?

richard
who only speaks to hear his head rattle

[Andonis]

another aspect of modern culture is this idea of constant celebration, that i find more than a little disturbing. at the drop of a hat a party is organised, invite anybody and everybody, drink and be merry, life is beautiful...

furthest from the mind are the ideas of self examination, repentance over sins, mourning over the moral disintegration of society that we either directly or indirectly have contributed to.

i remember when i left my last job i refused to have a going away party. before i knew it, behind my back there was not one but three going away celebrations organised. ironically i was only going to work somewhere else further down the road. i protested when i found out, because i thought to myself, this is only going to end up being another pretentious gathering of people whom share very little in terms of common values. my refusal was taken in great admonishment, so inexcusable was my stance. here where the open minded, liberal modern people of the world dictating exactly what i was meant to do and how i was meant to do it. and any individualism on my part was something everybody took a great deal of offence in. i was made to feel outcast all because i wanted to leave in a peaceful nonetheless gratuitous manner. go figure....

[Justin]

Regarding TV, my wife and I have followed along a similar course, but haven't quite had the hoped-for results. When we got married we agreed to not get Cable (even though one relative wanted to get it for us and even pay for it on a monthly basis to "help us out"). We still kept our DVD and VCR, though, and I kept my small TV. Well, instead of watching Cable we ended up renting 5-6 movies a week and 1-2 DVD's! So we weren't much better off than we would have been had we just gotten cable to begin with. Eventually it became clear that we'd have to give away that stuff so that it wouldn't present a temptation (a video store being about 100 feet from our Apartment building didn't help). Now, however, instead of the TV we fall victim to other temptations. Just tonight, for instance, we played the game "Aerobiz" (SNES) on the computer (Emulation). We read while the other person was taking their "turn," but it's still illustrative of how far my wife and I have to go. We don't miss TV or videos, and I'm sure once we stop playing games we won't miss those either, but until then it's an uphill struggle. I admire you guys who can cast the stuff off easily.

[Owen Jones]

A good insight, Andonis. We are now being told that depression is a clinical problem, treatable by drugs and psychotherapy. But who wouldn't get depressed who looks around them? What's wrong with a little depression now and then? All of this false, empty celebration ritual of course is a substitute for having deprived ourselves too long of the true celebration of the resurrection of Christ. There is a somber joy in our liturgy. If you look at all early photographs, everyone has a serious somber look. They were not miserable. They thought it unseemly to be putting on smile for the camera. And life is serious. There will be a broad-based spiritual revival some day because we cannot deprive human nature of its spiritual basis forever. Eventually people will get SERIOUS about their spiritual destiny.

[Andonis]

the battle is a hard one Justin, because our senses have become so used to being excited and satiated, that removal of the stimuli almost feels like a form of spiritual exorcism. i know that during a stonger moment i advertised and sold all in terms of TV's, Video's, DVD's. as i was handing them over, i was suddenly overcome by a feeling of grave loss, almost as if i was giving my own children away. and when they were gone, the silence, the bareness of the TV cabinet was almost unbearable. that is when i realised just how much accustomed i had become to my digital, available at the press of a button world.

now of-course silence is my language and my music of choice. and it is no longer a sacrifice but a silence i rejoice in...

[sinjin smithe]

Andonis, I agree with everything you ahve stated about our culture of celebration. People are so eager to look the next chance to drink and be merry.

the battle is a hard one Justin, because our senses have become so used to being excited and satiated, that removal of the stimuli almost feels like a form of spiritual exorcism. i know that during a stonger moment i advertised and sold all in terms of TV's, Video's, DVD's. as i was handing them over, i was suddenly overcome by a feeling of grave loss, almost as if i was giving my own children away. and when they were gone, the silence, the bareness of the TV cabinet was almost unbearable. that is when i realised just how much accustomed i had become to my digital, available at the press of a button world.

I think people have been conditioned by the media and cultural traditions, especially in the US, to seek entertainment when they are bored or have nothing to do to past the time. We are taught that if we don't have stimulation, it is a bad a thing and that we should seek it. If you tell people you prefer silence and reading a book than watching TV, people give you an odd look of disbelief. It is like that cannot understand someone who would want to live like that.

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

How is it then, Sinjin, that some of us are able to withstand the cultural pressures to have circumambient noise at all times? (And I can assure you that decibel bombardment is a yuk-making feature of public space in the UK as well as the US). Is inner quiet an achievable good, available to all, or do you see it as being solely the product of faith?


the seeker

[sinjin smithe]

Margaret, I think I see it as a product of faith. It is something that one has to work at because it is very easy not to do in our society. I know in my case, I came to a realization that all this noise and frivolity is meaningless(in the Ecclesiastes sense). To put it bluntly, I found myself hungering for God. I found myself wanting to spend more time in prayer and in silence, then engaging in partying or watching TV or whatever distration there is in the world.

[George Hawkins]

For me, it wasn't too hard to stop watching TV, it was more a case of getting out of the habit. You can get very numbed and not realise just what you are watching. So many people have it on constantly, as background noise or a comforter or whatever, and yet these people still might not realise that they are being affected, or shld I say infected, by what is going on on the TV, even if they aren't actively listening or watching.

I find that there is much more that I would rather spend my time doing - prayer, reading scripture/patristics etc, and I don't seem to even have enough time to do as much of that as I'd like, that even if I wanted to watch TV, I wouldn't really have time for it. I guess it is a matter of priorities as to what you do with the time that you have. There are still now and then good programmes or documentaries on TV. Also with video or DVD you have the choice of what you will watch rather than some anonymous TV executive.. I don't think watching TV is wrong per se, but there is a lot more out there that is more worthwhile.

[Andonis]

read an interesting book regarding modern day stress which is a leading cause in cardiovascular disease, type two diabetes, depression, anxiety etc, which has plagued modern society. it explained that our fight or flight response was originally designed to respond to threats in an immediate fashion, for a short time span. this has the effect or releasing nor adrenaline which makes the heart beat faster to fill the muscles with blood, which will be required to either flee the stressor or fight it.
in our modern secular age, the stressors may be not as overt as they where once upon a time, like having to face up to a lion in the jungle, but they are subtle, nevertheless unceasingly hostile and present everywhere at all times. this has the effect of inducing the fight or flight response far in excess of what the body can handle. This results in high cortisol levels in the blood stream for long periods which has extreemly deleterious effects to ones health resulting in diseases mentioned above.
what i find most interesting is trying to name and identify these subtle, virtually invisible stressors, which strip the soul completely of peace. for someone without a moral benchmark, knowledge of a prior better way of life, someone whose value systems concentrate mainly on material prosperity, this can be extreemly difficult. people become so consumed by the desire to live out a dream sold to them through their ignorance, battling daily to keep up the payments for the latest car and oversized luxurious house. they become the puppets of the corporate capitalists, with no hint of truth anywhere to guide these injured souls to true peace and self fulfilment.
no point looking at your fellow man for compassion and understanding, for he's caught up in the deceipt himself and has no time. no point turning to the modern church, its just another club bordering on becoming a business, telling him to get with the times, we certainly have. so what does he do, continues feeding his vices, makes the corporations richer whilst the thrombus in his jugular just gets larger and larger. he breaks out in cold sweats and tremors out of nowhere. his shrink tells him they're panic attacks and he must learn to trick his brain using cognitive techniques, into normalcy. of course no mention of the moral chaos confronting modern man daily, its just an anxiety disorder, a chemical imbalance, take some prozac do some yoga and get over it.
the dilemma deepens daily...

[Owen Jones]

But let's not fall into the trap of thinking that we are better than the rest of the world, Andonis, because we have all of these wonderful spiritual insights. And not all people who work in business are as you describe them. Without business and prosperity, we would not have the leisure time to read the Bible or the Fathers, or own a computer, and spend time on this message board. We would be digging for roots and grubs.

[Andonis]

quite right Owen and thank you for reminding me to maintain a humble mind. but i'm not sure i agree with you, with the idea of business and prosperity. my grandfather has dug roots and grubs all his life, barely finishing high school in Greece. yet his knowledge of the world and insight into God would put many business leaders to shame. not to mention that he brought up 9 children. so i'm not about to find business leaders whom provide computers at competetive market prices as being deserving of any special commendation. their motive is not in providing us with more time to search for spiritual insight. its driven by the relentless forces whom worship efficiency, economic rationalism even at the expense of mankind. and it continues to feed into the spirit of individualism and self adulation. furthermore what does the world do with all this spare time? judging by the moral standards of today's world, it doesn't look like the spare time is helping much, other than providing more time and convenience to feed ones vices and fall victim to the passions. for what is the value of this prosperity, when one is not able to examine their conscience in a morally justifiable way? i think its only a small minority that actually use our technological advancements to better themselves spiritually. for the remainder, it merely spells further confusion and more chaos.

[sinjin smithe]

Very true Owen. It is easy to forget that sometimes.

[Owen Jones]

It's always a small minority who take advantage of prosperity and leisure to serve God more fully or contemplate His creation. My hats off to your grandfather, but I'm sure he has had plenty of time to read all of the Greek Fathers as well? Finally, I always get a little edgy these days when I hear blanket condemnation of business or businessmen from Christians. Because the typical alternative that is offered is some socialistic nighmare. Finally, It's the businessmen who pay the priests's salaries and build the Churches.

[demetrios karaolanis]

do not look at the splinter in a brother's eye when you have a plank in your own is what I always say to myself when I see that going on.

[Andonis]

once again Owen i agree with you, and i hope i wasn't misunderstood, because i wasn't at all trying to make a blanket condemnation of all business. nor am i suggesting that we live a socialistic nightmare. but there is a big difference between uncle Dimitris who owns the corner drug store, who with sweat and tears has made himself comfortable financially, and a different thing again to be part of the board of directors of some impersonal multinational company whose only concern is the price of their shares and what sells, even to the detriment of the consumer. surely the moral ramifications are likely to be a lot more potentially destructive in the latter. furthermore its people like uncle Dimitri whom will reach in to their pockets to help build the local church and not Coca Cola or Nike.

Demetrios what you say is true, that its much more important to try to correct oneself of one's imperfections than to look at the faults of others. in saying this, i wish to acknowledge that within business big and small, exist very pious and honest individuals whom don't deserve to be stigmatised.

[Owen Jones]

Andonis,

The Patres point out, and I can't quote specifically but it's a general thread throughout their thought, that it is eros that drives us. When a man turns to business entrepreneurship, he is responding to an erotic urge but expressing it in the wrong direction. It becomes a substitute for the Church. That's why entrepreneurship in America particularly is really a religion. And why it is funny and frustrating to see Protestantism allied so closely with entrepreneurship. There are notable exceptions. Bill Monahan is giving his billion dollar pizza fortune to Catholic charities, and wants to die poor. Delta Airlines was founded by a Christian family and was managed like a Christian family. It was routinely voted the best company to work for, and the employees actually purchased a 747 for the company in gratitude!!! When the founder retired, he turned it over to bean counters to run it, and they have run it into the ground. It is now one of the worst companies to work for. Microsoft is currently way down the list as a good company to work for.

Orthodoxy must come up with a response to modernity, both socialism and capitalism, that is beyond just moralizing, that provides a theological and philosophical critique AND an alternative, on a par with Origen's CONTRA CELSUS. There will be no broad spiritual revival until that critique is accomplished. Meanwhile, we are to love the sinner exactly where he is and not condemn. The FEELING that Orthodoxy gives is more powerful than the feeling that comes from successful entrepreneurship. Most entrepreneurs are in it for the powerful feelings it delivers, not for the money. It's the feeling that we are creating something. But we have a more powerful feeling. That should be the message.

[sinjin smithe]

Forgive me for sounding stupid here Owen, but what is that powerful feeling that we have in Orthodoxy?

[Owen Jones]

Awe, wonder, holy fear. Feelings like the woman at the well felt when Christ, whom she had never met, knew everything about her. Healing. Transcendence. That all will be well. Being struck blind or dumb. Being moved. Being moved to tears of repentence and joy. Surely there is a range of feelings that are undefinable and indescribable. (as opposed to just raw emotion). Even dispassion and detachment are, in a sense, feelings. Then there is always the element of struggle, and being moved by the Holy Spirit to seek God more and more. A feeling that we have never made enough progress toward our goal. That the more we get the more we want (of the gifts of the Spirit). That's the best I can do on a quick attempt. I don't believe the Fathers claim that these are unique to Christianity. Only that in Christianity, and specifically Orthodox Christianity, they are properly oriented.

[Andonis]

very insightful post Owen. i never looked at the drive that people display may actually be a substitute for our Eros towards God. I also like your explanation because i can go easier on myself in my minimalist approach to work and social conforming. i wonder whether others also experience that the more you reach for God, the more dispassion you develop to worldly things like business or a busy social life.

i find it exasperating the rate at which my colleagues chase career advancement, better jobs, better salaries. it sometimes instills in me a feeling of guilt at my great satisfaction with my present accomplishments and my complacency. i feel happy and content, but i'm sure i give the impression i am stagnant and lacking in drive. i guess what i find most frustrating is in striking that balance, between sloth and being too immersed in your worldly affairs.

[Moses Anthony]

Owen, Adonis;

I remember standing once at my place as Reader/subdeacon, while the lady who sang all the troparias was singing during Matins. I closed my eyes to listen , and it seemed that I stood behind a pillar in a cathedral, hearing a womans pleas echoing to God. It was to me an entrance into a very holy moment.

At another time standing near the altar during Divine Liturgy, this thought occurred to me: If the priest is the angel/messenger of God, and I'm the priest's helper, then even more, as a emmissary how much more careful should I be about my manner of life!
How should we feel, or what should we think when Holy Communion becomes our first meal of the day?

The Apostle Paul wrote "Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable His ways." The training I received as an artist included the notice of detail. And, there's so much detail in Orthodoxy, birthing feelings of awe, humility, wonder, divine glory, etc., etc., etc.!
These are feelings beyond doubt, but what more do we have besides our will (I'm not going there)to offer to God. Having made a decision to submit to God, by His grace and Spirit, our feelings are properly oriented towards the Creator. They are then pwerful motivating /moving factors, as we feel nothing without making a decision to live in a certain manner. To live as an Orthodox Christian is the among the most fateful decisions I've ever made.

If I've totally missed the question and point, please forgive my ignorance and pride!

t.u.s

[sinjin smithe]

The post by James made me think of something. I think, I know this in my case, it is easy for us to be so weighed down by the noise of life that sometimes we fail to take in the beauty and the things that James describes in our lives as Orthodox Christians. If one is not careful, they will miss these if one does not focus their attention on them.

I have a question for Owen, and it maybe a bit dumb. What is Eros?

[John Wilson]

The four Greek words for our word love are "storge" (affection), "philia" (friendship), "eros" (sexual or romantic love) and "agape" (selfless love).

C.S.Lewis wrote a book called "The Four Loves" if you are interested.

John.

[John Curtis Dunn]

On Wednesday, 05 February, 2003 Owen Jones wrote:
Orthodoxy must come up with a response to modernity, both socialism and capitalism, that is beyond just moralizing, that provides a theological and philosophical critique AND an alternative, on a par with Origen's CONTRA CELSUS.
-------------------

I find the present topic of this thread quite enjoyable, the topic touches my personal life style at many levels. Perhaps all the more since I have recently take up the role of an entrepreneur. Even more so, because a substantal part of my business will depend upon sales of my product to Orthodox Parishes.

Expansion is often perceived as evidence of success (which is the a-theological term for blessing). The Rich man said, "What shall I do, because I have no (room) where I shall gather together my fruit. And he said, 'This will I do: I will take down my storehouses and build greater (ones); and there will I gather together all my produce and my good things." Also, the end to which this expansiion program aimed was: "And I will say to my soul, "Soul, thou hast many good things being laid up for many years; be taking thy rest; eat, drink, (and) be merry."

I refer to the parable of the Rich fool because our Lord Jesus Christ has given to us (those who are Orthodox) much by which we as individuals may form into our conscience a practical realization of that which Owen alluded: "(An Orthodox... response to modernity, both socialism and capitalism." Also, the parable is relevant because that which makes socialism and capitalism condemnable is the same which made the Rich entrepreneur of the parable a fool. Therefore, I would propose that it has less to do with modernity and more to do do with the man's spiritual blindness. Certainly, there are some aspects within our modern lifestyle choices in the West [and more specifically in the USA, since this is the only nation in which I have lived] which are conducive to the spiritual ailment of which the Rich Fool was afflicted. Indeed, I would venture to say that we Westerners are prone to take the vaccination approach towards inoculating ourselves and other cultures against this spiritual disease.

That which is most modern and which is used to enhance our sensation of ease is
technology. The body of man's knowledge has increased, but I suspect his capacity to analyse and capitalize upon that body of knowledge is the same as that of any culture at any time. However, to develop these latter thoughts veers from the immediate purpose and perhaps the present topic of this thread.

That which inspired me to post on this thread was Owen's words: "Orthodoxy must come up with a response." I suspect my reply to this statement will appear somewhat simplistic and perhaps myopic, but I believe apropos. Orthodoxy is the response to modernity, whether expressed in the Capitalistic or Socialistic zeitgeist of our modern cultures.

The Orthodox Church is the hospital which specializes in curing the spiritual blindness which afflicts our modern (or postmodern) culture.
The cure is only assessible to those who with faith come and apply themselves to the discipline of reforming the conscience and aquiring an experience of true enlightenment [Transfiguration]. The former part is very much in our capabilities, the latter, very much belongs to God alone.

The former [reformation of our conscience] is not the end of our Lord's cure of the soul, that would only lead us into some moralistic approach to materialism. Teaching a man to fish, so that he can labor to produce his own daily bread (by own I mean for himself, family and extended family or culture)is not the primary aim or goal of Orthodoxy. Indeed, I would contend it is not even within the paramiters of Orthodoxy to address this issue by developing some kind of economic philosophy to counter either Capitalism or Socialism. Perhaps the urgency to produce such a program as an Orthodox Christian alternative for social/cultural transformation stems from this same moralistic need to change or challange whichever respective system we oppose or find ourselves acclimated towards.

The pros and cons of both Capitalism and Socialism have been adequately annunciated throughout the last century. And as Orthodox Christians living within our respective cultures [whether Capitalistic or Socialistic), who live in the world, are not able to simply close our eyes to these realities.

As I stated above: Orthodoxy is the response to modernity, but that which attracts men and women to Orthodoxy is how we as individual Orthodox Christians working together in the world show ourselves as having been cured of the illness of our souls. Modern man is acclimated to preaching; which is to say he wants to receive information towards which he/she can apply criticism, so as to judge the logic or rationale of the arguments in favor of the thesis being proposed as argument for or against (in this case Capitalism or Socialism) any proposal.

As Orthodox Christians we bring into the world the Orthodox Gospel of Christ {God became man that we might become god} not through argumentation, but through works of righteousness.
That is to say, we show ourselves as being "transfigured on the Mount" with the Disciples or as St. Paul said, "Transformed by the renewing of our minds" (Rom 12:2) which can only be realized when we "cease being fashioned according to this age." (ibid.)

What age; the age of modernity? At least that, but certainly more than that? In the case of the Rich Fool, he assessed the value of his own soul against the weight of his possessions. Or perhaps more succinctly, the Rich Fool described his soul as having possession of those things which are corruptible. Therein lies the sad reality of our modern zeitgeist, both in Captitalism and Socialism. Perhaps this is simplistic, but the spiritual blindness of the Rich Fool lay in his materialistic apprehension of: "You are what you eat."

However, even this latter thought is not wholly foreign to our Orthodox mind, for we truly believe we become that which we eat. It is preciesly at that point [our eating] that we are renewed in our minds, transfigured and endowed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit to transform our culture by being transfigured by Christ.

Sadly, it is also at that point that I often fail to apprehend that by which I have been apprehended. I fail to be transfigured by Him that transfigures me. I say foolish words like, "Let us build three tabernacles here." Why, because I want to live on the mountain top and avoid the clamour of the world below.

Some people are looking to the mountain top so they can be the first to take advantage of the agenda or program. They hope for a materialistic change in the order of things so that they might be the first to take advantage of the opportunities a "new world order" will introduce into the culture. There is indeed a new law which comes down from the Mountain top, "Love one another as I have Loved you," and the second tablet reads, "By this shall men know that ye are my disciples, if ye love one another."

This is our Orthodox agenda, program and response to modernity. The Church does indeed assist us in our transformation, however up to us as individuals to carry this knowlege into the world. This love can be said to be dissipated by us foolishly if we consider the parable of the Sower of the seed, but we freely give to those who ask without prior assessment of the condition of the soil upon which we sow.

Indeed, we are made a little suspicious of those who approach the Church to make out of her a place or vehicle for cultural change. (My personal thought is that this is the root of cause for the charge of Sergianism). Often those who have approached her with this end have their own agendas and simply see the Church as a soapbox upon which to heighten their own heads.

Well, again I have veered from the precise topic, and I certainly am not addressing them to Owen as if his words were intended to support or propose anything like that to which I have objected. OK, perhaps there is one point in Owens words which I have expessed objection towards, if so it was: "Orthodoxy must come up with a response. For I do believe Orthodoxy already is that response.

In the case of the Rich Fool the words of God to Him also apply to us: "Fool, this night they demand thy soul from thee; and what thou didst prepare, for whom shall it be?" And as our Lord gave commentary: "Thus is the one who treasureth up for himself, and is not rich toward God." And He said to His disciples, "On this account I say to you, cease bveing anxious for your soul, what shall you eat, nor for the body, what ye shall put on. The soul is more than food, and the body is more than the garment...(etc.,), but be seeking the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you."

This is the program or agenda to which this new entrepreneur must conform his business towards.

john

[Owen Jones]

No offense intended, John, but you are being simplistic. Orthodoxy is, traditionally, more than just personal piety. The Fathers did not personalize Orthodoxy. Everything is part of a whole fabric. A necessary part of that fabric is the challenge to the intellect. Most of the Greek Fathers were molded intellectually by the Platonic Academy, and they understand that cosmos, history, culture, nature, person were all inextricably linked. They responded to the challenge of paganism, not just with their personal piety, which makes a mockery of our own piety today, but also at a very high intellectual level. Both of which together served to replaced paganism with a Christian culture.

Modernity is more than just spiritual blindness or prelest. Expressed in political reality, it has become a powerful substitute for traditional faith and culture. There are some unique aspects of modernity that personal piety alone is not really equipped to handle. What happens, as a practical consequence, is that Orthodoxy is virtually irrelevant on the cultural level. Also, let us not forget the Great Commission. That commandment requires us to make a cultural and intellectual witness as well. The modern rootless artist and intellectual really governs society. We have no intellectual response to that. One obvious consequence is that many Christians are in Church on Sunday, but in few other aspects can they be distinguished from anyone else in the "culture." I once had a Greek priest tell me that all of his parishioners were protestants. But what they really were were thoroughly secularized liberals.

[Owen Jones]

Sinjin,

The glossary in the back of the Philokalia has the best definition of eros.

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

It's what RC religious denominate as detachment, ie working to remove all emotional attachment to outward things, such as wordly success or failure, in order to concentrate on developing inner equilibrium as a step towards salvation.

the seeker

[John Curtis Dunn]

Posted by Owen Jones on Thursday, 06 February, 2003 - 3:02 pm:

No offense intended, John, but you are being simplistic. Orthodoxy is,
traditionally, more than just personal piety
-------------------
None taken and none being returned.

In answer to your statement I reply, "Of course it has been and is still." Having said this, it is also correct to say, "Orthodoxy is traditionally nothing more than personal piety." St. Seraphim of Sarov could say something like: "Save yourself and you will save a thousand others around you." Which is to say something like "for each of us the salvation of the world begins with each one of us." This is realized when we struggle to "Be not conformed to this world."
---------------
[Owen] "The Fathers did not personalize Orthodoxy. Everything is part of a whole fabric. A necessary part of that fabric is the challenge to the intellect. Most of the Greek Fathers were molded intellectually by the Platonic Academy, and they understand that cosmos, history, culture, nature, person were all inextricably linked. They responded to the challenge of paganism, not just with their personal piety, which makes a mockery of our own piety today, but also at a very high intellectual level. Both of which together served to replaced paganism with a Christian
culture."

[Me] It is preciesely because all these spheres of human expression are "inextricably linked" that personal piety is the foundation for the redemption of any one and all. Also, personal piety is never "individualistic" because it always expresses itself in outward human relationships and it is from these latter that such things as history and culture are formed. Salvation is communicable, but this is not spread via "position papers," these latter may excite curiosity, but more often they invite the scorn of the "Martians" [philosophers of Mars Hill].

Both Capatilism and Socialism incubated within the petrie dish of a "Christian culture," [albeit one more and the other less heretical]. Understand, it was not my intention to object to any philosophical criticism of either of these systems; both of these already exist, almost ad nauseum. Both can and often have lead a men/women and societies away from Orthodoxy.

My original objection simply stated was that "Orthodoxy IS the response to modernity." This statement incorporates both the individual and the corporate body of Orthodox piety. We can recall that our Lord Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world, if it were, my servants would be fighting, in order that I should not be delivered up to the Jews." Please do not construe from my words any idea that I oppose taking from the philosophical thought of Capitalism or Socialism that which is conducive to communicating Orthodoxy. I was simply responding to the words as they appeared to be written; which appeared to suggest that there was something lacking within Orthodoxy. "Orthodoxy must come up with a response to modenity, both socialism and capitalism."

That which made my reply appear simplistic was the *IS,* but this "IS" was not intended to oppose building bridges into Orthodoxy using the material of Capitalism or Socialism. My use of IS was as the verb which means "equal in meaning." Thus, Orthodoxy IS the response to modernity" meant that Orthodoxy is already equal to the task of challanging and defeating Modernity. This manifests itself each day an Orthodoxy Christian chooses to live according to the commandment of the Gospel. Perhaps I was being a little over-sensitive to "must come up with a response to." These latter words seem to express some kind of "Think-tank Orthodoxy." This may have excited images of "Intellectuals" postulating, calculating and propogating their consensus of what is or is not Orthodoxy. Concerning the latter, it does already appear that our present Orthodoxy culture [at least in the West] is already afflicted with such venues.

You are correct to point out that our Fathers struggled {and won] within their culture to replace paganism with Christianity (Orthodoxy). This did indeed require the highest of intellectual gifts which God then provided to the Church. Indeed, the struggle against Arianism was itself a struggle against the highest intellectual endeavour of Greek paganism: i.e., Greek philosophy. The latter was wholly willing to accept a Christ who was a mediating principle between God and matter [the world], however, it could not accept or comprehend that LOGOS was Divinity and that this Divinity became flesh. St. Basil himself wrote a treatise titled, "What Benefit Can Be Drawn from Pagan Works."
-----------------------
[Owen] "Modernity is more than just spiritual blindness or prelest. Expressed in political reality, it has become a powerful substitute for traditional faith and culture. There are some unique aspects of modernity that personal piety alone is not really equipped to handle. What happens, as a practical consequence, is that Orthodoxy is virtually irrelevant on the cultural level."

[me] If Modernity is being used as a synonym for Secularism, I agree. This was also my point, however I used the Parable of the Rich Fool to express it. Modern man believes he has gathered enough grain and fruit from Christianity, so as to dispense with any further tilling of its soil, sowing of its seed, and harvesting of its fruits. Our culture(s) has equivicated its soul with the prosperity of its technologies. Modern secular man does indeed identify the soul through philosophies of economics; this appearsi true of both Marxism and Capitalism.

But it seemed that your original comments were addressed very much towards the issue of "personal piety." In your first paragraph you made use of some very specific examples of personal piety: i.e., Bill Monahan and the Delta bean counters. Your absolutism that "there shall be no broad spiritual revival" also appears an issue for "personal piety." It does seem to me any critique and response to the de-humanization of mankind [which I believe is the defining mark of modernity], must conform to the way Orthodox Christians presently live.
------------

[Owen] "The modern rootless artist and intellectual really governs society. We have no intellectual response to that."

[Me] If you keep your own head while all others around you are loosing theirs, you have acted intellectually. That which is rootless cannot survive for long.

john

[Owen Jones]

I'll let you have the last word, John, although I have no idea what you mean by it.

oaj

[Justin]

Owen,

You don't? Not even the Chesterton-esque part at the end? http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif He was making perfect sense to me. One of the problems I have with what you are asking for is that I don't think it's possible--or at least, I don't think it could be a goal or objective to strive for. The fact is that Orthodox Christianity will never be embraced by a culture like the one that exists in the west, even if a hundred Origens (of the orthodox variety) were all feverishly writing their entire lives. Orthodoxy, in the end, comes down to one thing: you must follow Jesus, which means you must be crucified (spiritually, which is painful enough, and perhaps otherwise). It doesn't matter how much you emphasise positive, life-altering aspects of God's Church, or how beautifully or intellectually sophisticated you state it: the west, as it presently stands, simply won't listen.

I'm not saying that there is no hope, I'm only saying that the hope is in those who turn from western christianity because they see how bankrupt it is. It's not information from the outside (ie. Orthodoxy) that will make most realize this, though, it's personal experience within. And once they realise it, we need to be waiting as living examples of our faith, with good textual resources coming in a far second. You mentioned hellenism and paganism, but these things were overcome or christianized mostly through very down-to-earth practical means; the blood of the martyrs was the seed that sprouted into the largest bush in the garden, as it were.

I'm sure you know the "individualistic" phrase of Saint Seraphim about gaining inner peace. Saint Justin Popovich also made a few statements that are relevant here:


"...the major task of our Church is the creation of... Christ-bearing ascetics... And today only Orthodox ascetic efforts and virtues can bring about sanctity in every soul, in the soul of all our people--seeing that the God-human objective of the Church is unalterable and its means are likewise so, since Christ is indeed the same, yesterday and today and unto all ages. (Heb. 13:8)" - Justin Popovich (Trans. Asterios Gerostergios, et al.), Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ, (Institute For Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies, 1994), p. 29

"This mission of the Church if facilitated by God Himself because among our people there exists an ascetic spirit as created by Orthodoxy through the centuries. The Orthodox soul of our people leans towards the Holy Fathers and the Orthodox ascetics. Ascetic exertion, at the personal, family, and parish level, particularly of prayer and fasting, is the characteristic of Orthodoxy. Our people is a people of Christ, an Orthodox people, because--as Christ did--it sums up th Gospel in these two virtues: prayer and fasting... Orthodoxy will always generate ascetic rebirth. She recognizes no other. The Ascetics are Orthodoxy's only missionaries. Asceticism is her only missionary school. Orthodoxy is ascetic effort and it is life, and it is thus by effort and by life that her mission is broudcast and brought about. The development of asceticism... this ought to be the inward mission of our Church amongst our people." - Ibid., p. 30

[Owen Jones]

Ironically, Popovitch was one of the premier Orthodox thinkers of the 20th century. I think your attitude, to simply write off the culture, write off something called the West, and condemn them all to hell is the worst sort of Orthodox obscurantism, pride, and self-absorbtion. And, of course, Popovitch's point, which you have quoted out of context of his life and work, is made in part to make a compelling witness to the society at large. All I am saying is that a pietistic anti-intellectualism has nothing to do with Classical, Orthodox Christianity. Our witness must be made at all levels since salvation includes the body, will, and intellect.

I once was invited to speak at an Orthodox seminary -- it was a great crowd. One person made the point that if we tried to witness to America, half the people wouldn't listen or care. And I asked, what about the other half?

I see absolutely no effort of that sort in Orthodoxy today. I see the worst sort of insular politics, fighting over scraps dropped from the table. When the Ecumenical Patriarch was in the U.S. he missed an historic opportunity to witness. He spent all of his time masquerading as a left-wing democratic politician, he visited all of the secular political left-wing shrines and made a point of how progressive he was. Where was the witness regarding our ascetic virtues that are, indeed, the hallmark of sanctity? And where was the argument that secularism is killing us -- creating, as the Pope has courageously stated -- a culture of death. Before we simply condemn all religious people in the West for being heretical we ought to look at what many Protestants and Catholics are actually DOING, to protect and defend the sanctity of life for instance, and to call us to repentance. I see little or none of that in Orthodoxy. There is far more debate about what typicon to use.

One example of the intellectual debate that has to be made: evolution. It is scientifically bogus. But no convincing argument is going to be made based on a literal interpretation of Genesis 1. Orthodoxy should be producing stellar scientists, mathematicians, biologists, philosophers, who can hammer the nails in the coffin of one of the most destructive intellectual movements ever devised. That would do more to evangelize for Orthodoxy than all of our ramblings on web chat pages. But where are the Orthodox schools that will produce such scholars?

[Justin]

To be quite honest, you don't understand at all what you're saying. I'm not at all taking Justin Popovich's words out of context, I've studied everything I've been able to find on him, and not just the parts that ultra-fundamentalists like. When I mentioned Saint Justin a few months ago you hadn't even heard of him, so don't lecture me about how \b(I'm} taking him out of context while you somehow understand him correctly. I have a webpage on my site with every text of his that's online linked to. A half dozen books by him (or at least containing material he wrote) are available in English. If I've misunderstood him, prove it from his texts.

I never said we shouldn't write materials that westerners could us, I said that it was of secondary importance, but as usual you choose to read the parts you choose to read. (remember when you misquoted me in a paraphrase, I asked you to quote specific when I had said what you were charging me with, and you dissappeared from the thread for a week or so?) Many books have already been written detailing the problem with the west, \b(and the solution}. Popovich and Rose are just the beginning. You'd rather boo-hoo about how no one's doing anything though, and spend your time defending heretics (e.g., Origen) and trying to reform their image rather than promoting the work that's already been written. THEN, other people can't promote such Orthodox work because we're too busy cleaning up the mess guys like you are making in claiming things like you do about Origen and the events surrounding his condemnation.

I would say "Good day to you sir," but that would probably just come off as melodramatic (though it wouldn't be intended that way), so I'll just say goodbye for now (until I calm myself down and mature enough to where I don't fly off the handle).

Justin

PS. When did I condemn anyone to hell?

[Justin]

I apologize to anyone I've offended, sinful and passion-driven as I am.

I'll now take my own advice, and worry about working out my own salvation rather coming here trying to convince some to change their minds, like I should have been doing all along.

Saint Gregory the Theologian, today do we reverence thee. Save me!

[Owen Jones]

Here's why I'm hopping mad, Justin. We Orthodox are no better than the ancient Jews whom Christ excoriated for keeping their light hidden under a basket. We love to talk theology, and read the Philokalia, and talk about how wonderful the liturgy is, but where is the witness -- on any level? You talk about the importance of asceticism, and I agree, but where is the institutional support for that? And where are the Orthodox schools and hospitals, and orphanages, and where is the Orthodox witness to criminals and prostitutes and the homeless, and to young women who are being pressured into abortion? And where is the intellectual vibrancy of Orthodoxy? Where is all that? It's all in 1500 year old books. It's nowhere to be seen.

Now, it seems to me that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You complain that no one will listen anyway, which strikes me as a gross violation of God's Great Commission, but are you listening? Or do you just like to talk about this tiny, insignificant little spiritual world you have created for yourself. Of course, everything I have said applies to me as well.

[John Curtis Dunn]

As a child we used to reply to those who said, "We need; we ought; we should; we will; we don't; etc.," by saying, "What do you mean by *We*, there is no french mouse in my pocket." How clever *we* thought we were when I was young.

Owen has asked, "but where is the witness -- on any level?"

Why must we look for institutional support for our asceticism? And more importantly, why should those who are struggling in the practice of asceticism expose their struggle to the world? If those who are laboring [each according to their ability and prayers of faith] begin to open their asceticism up to the world, might they not fall under the condemnation of our Lord who said, Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." Also, "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I know of no passages where our Lord "excoriated" the Jews for hiding thier light under a basket (bushel?). Indeed, he said that scribes and Pharisees compass sea and land to make one proseylte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
This would seem to imply that the Pharisees and scribes (the intellectuals?) were quite busy attempting to make converts.

Nothing in my posts should have been construed to mean these good deeds should go undone by Orthodox Christians, however, they are not the responsibility of the Church [as an institution], they are the responsibility of individual Orthodox Christians.

I have only been a member of two Orthodox Parishes and in both I have found vibrant intellectual activities. Most notably those who are home schooling their children or struggling to provide an education which equips them to live Orthodoxy in the world. I know of men, women and children who have been laboring to persuade girls and women to turn from the evil practice of abortion [practice, because there are many women who repeat the horrendous procedure].

I currently know of one child of whom a fellow Orthodox Xtian is desperately attempting to find a Russian Orthodox family to foster and perhaps adopt. This young boy was brought over by a Protestant family from Russia to adopt, they found the language barrier and cultural barrier to difficult to overcome and have turned him over to the state.


I know of two Orthodox Families who have personally opened their home to strangers who turned out to be drug addicts and were unwilling to be helped, yet expected to be supported in their addictions.

We might also recall "...that there are not many wise according to the flesh, not many powerful, not many well-born. But God chose for Himself the foolish things of the world, that He may put to shame the wise; and God chose for Himself the weak things of the world, that He might put to shame the mighty things. And God chose for Himself the low-born of the world and the despised, and the things that are nothing, that He might make of no effect the things that are, so that no flesh should boast before Him."

The Apostles built no Hospitals, no schools, no orphanages, yet of them St. John Chrysostom could say, "For the mighty achievements which tax collectors and fishermen were able to effect by the grace of God, these, philosophers and rhetoricians, and tyrants, and in short the whole world, running ten thousand ways here and there, could not with all their strength even imagine.'

That which we need is "the grace of God" not BS.
That which we need is "the grace of God" not MS
That which we need is "the grace of God" not Piled Higer and deeper."

I am certainly not saying these have no place and value if the person who acquires them is one who is filled with "the grace of God."

But first things first.

john

[Owen Jones]

Dear John,

"Right Church, wrong people" I think what we should do is kick everyone who is currently in the Church out, and invite in all of the prostitutes, drug addicts, petty criminals, the mentally ill, the poor and oppressed, etc.etc.etc.

[Rebecca]

The Akathist Hymn, Third Friday in Lent, Third Stanza:

Rhetoric's many followers were mute as fish when they saw you, O Mother of God; for they dared not ask: How can you bear a Child, yet remain a Virgin? But we marvel at this mystery, and with faith cry:

Hail, Vessel of the wisdom of God; hail, Treasury of His foreknowledge.

Hail, you that showest philosophers fools; hail, you that provest logicians illogical.

Hail, for the subtle disputants are confounded; hail, for the writers of myths are withered.

Hail, you who did break the webs of the Athenians; hail, you who did fill the nets of the fishermen.

Hail, you who draws us from the depths of ignorance; hail, you who enlightens many with knowledge.

Hail, Raft for those who desire to be saved; hail, Haven for those who swim on the waves of the world. Hail, O Bride unwedded.

Salvation it was that the Architect of all desired to bring to the world, and for this, by His own will, He came; and, though as God He is the Shepherd, for us He appeared to us as a Man, and called the same by the same, still as God He hears: Alleluia.

[Rebecca]

St. Romanos the Melodist: Hymn On Mary at the Cross

Let us, then, all of us sing a hymn of praise
For the One who died on the cross for us,
For Mary saw Him on the cross and said,
"Even if Thou dost endure the cross, Thou art
My son and my God."

The lamb, beholding her lamb advancing to the slaughter,
Followed Him wearily with the other women, saying,
"Where dost Thou go, O my son?
Why dost Thou follow this swift path?
Is there another wedding in Cana,
And dost Thou hasten there to turn water into wine?
Shall I go with Thee, my child, or shall I wait for Thee?
Give me word, O Word, some word, and do not pass me
by in silence,
O Thou who has kept me pure,
My son and my God.

...

He answered these words of Mary, which she called out
From her deep grief and cried out from great suffering.
He who was born of her, answered her as follows:
"Why dost thou weep, Mother, why dost thou advance with
these other women?
Is it that I should not suffer, that I should not die? How, then,
shall I save Adam?
Is it that I should not inhabit the tomb? How then shall I restore to
life those in Hades?
And surely thou dost know that I am to be crucified unjustly.
Why, then, O Mother, dost thou weep? Rather, cry aloud
'It is gladly and willingly He suffered,
My son and my God'

[Richard McBride]

Re: two messages posted Friday, 07 February, 2003

Seraphim has made this point more than once, but it bears repeating:
"I see absolutely no effort of that sort in Orthodoxy today. I see the worst sort of insular politics, fighting over scraps dropped from the table. When the Ecumenical Patriarch was in the U.S. he missed an historic opportunity to witness. He spent all of his time masquerading as a left-wing democratic politician, he visited all of the secular political left-wing shrines and made a point of how progressive he was. Where was the witness regarding our ascetic virtues that are, indeed, the hallmark of sanctity? And ... etc."

I thought of Seraphim's little vindictive this morning when Metropolitan Isaiah, speaking at our Festival of Orthodoxy in Dallas, said something to the effect:
You should continually thank God for the Holy Spirit. It is due to the work of the Holy Spirit that Orthodoxy survives -- in spite of all the damage done to it by the Hierarchs and the Bishops...

I was amazed that someone beside Bishop Basil Esse might be so candid. (But I may not hide, for the Metropolitan might also have added that neither do sub deacons tend to carry their own weight in the Church. He might have said that, except for the fact that the Greek Church in America does not recognize the existence of sub deacons.

And that's just as well. We're a lazy bunch.)

Also, Justin, I appreciated your remarks, to which Seraphim was responding. Your remakrs were well said, and I think there is less distance between your two positions (yours and Seraphim's) than either of you allows.

richard
who must get back to lounging about

[Andonis]

i have another question. there are people in my life, whom claim to have an interest in God and orthodoxy, but often act out the contrary. i find trying to teach them to adhere to the faith only serves to bring me down. aside from some enlightenment, they don't seem to genuinly want to change, and i can't help but feel some resentment towards them. Not because they refuse to change but because they see fit to drag me into their spiritual black hole. i feel that with many of them, i would rather have nothing to do with, and would prefer to concentrate on my own ascetisism. my inner voice tells me to do the same. is it right to try and assist others spiritually when it becomes a direct assault of your own spiritual progress? is my inner voice God telling me to concentrate my efforts on myself for the time being, and leave these people to God's guidance? some opinions please...

[demetrios karaolanis]

About three years ago the same thing happened to me. the people around me had no desire to be religious in any way and I just could not convince them to change. I tried to many times but they just did not seem to want to do anything. I distanced myself from them and found a new group to be around. now I see in the news papers that some have gone to prison on multiple counts and they are leading lives of sin. I feel like I should have done something earlier but I did not. on the other hand maybe there was just nothing more I could do they were evil and hard headed. I feel like I have a deeper spiritual life since I leaft them but I still feel like there was something more I could have done for them. my situation may be much different from yours, but I think it is important to do good works. maybe god will yet help them also. I think that whatever you do you should always remember these people in your prayers.

[Moses Anthony]

Andonis,

As with most things in our lives , balance is crucial.

Evangelism is the responsibility of all who name the name of Christ, not just the parish priest. We are commanded to be able to give an answer to those who ask us, of the faith within us. This is however, tempered by the admonition of Peter to "...silence the questions of foolish men", by the manner of life. It's not an either or question, its both.

One of my best friends and I used to go to local parks (in another city) and talk to people about Jesus Christ. On one occassion I went by myself; gospel tracts and Bible on the car seat beside me, ready to witness for Jesus. I parked my car and opened the door and got out. Before my foot hit the curb by the sidewalk, a wave of fear swept over me, and I got back into my car and left. I went to the home of another friend of mine to see if he could help me figure out what had happened. I had forgot that we have an enemy, who will fight against any and all efforts to reconcile men to God!

How God speaks to you; is, how God speaks to you. Every word which goes out the mouth of Almighty God, is and has power. The Psalmist tells us that "Thy word O God, is settled forever in heaven." The Apostle Paul tells us that God considers us as ambassadors, adequate. And that He thinks us so worthy that He entrusts to us "...the word of reconciliation."

One other point to consider is this: Your involvement in these peoples' salvation may be no more than planting the Gospel seed. Someone else will water and cultivate, and someone else will reap the harvest. In all of this as Paul wrote the Chistians of Corinth, "it is God who causes the growth, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor."

If you are uncertain about exactly what is the will oof God is in this, pray diligently for them by name, until you're sure of what direction you are to take. Apparent disinterest in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by the lost, Satan uses to quinch the efforts of evangelism.

the unworthy servant

[Rev. Hieromonk Averky]

As we know from St. Paul, to some it is given to be prophets, to some to speak in tongues, and so on. I would venture to say this is particularly so about missionary work. Alas, most Orthodox Christians in the U.S.rarely, if ever, speak about their Faith to their neighbors. In a talk given by Frank Schaefer about four years ago, he said that when he first bcame Orthodox, he was so happy that he began mentioning it to various people - the teller at the bank, who, it turned out, is Greek Orthodox, his mechanic, who turned out to be in the O.C.A.and so on. In my experience I have found that the ability to draw others to Orthodoxy is truly a gift from God. Today I have been visiting a fellow priest who was telling me that he has actually lost potential new members bercause his church warden is simply too enthusiastic, and he corners and then intimidates new comers by his over zealousness. In the last ten years or so we have had the phenomenon in which people who only a few years ago were Baptist preachers, and now they are writing books on dogmatic theology. Perhaps the best "missionary work" that any of us could do would be to live good Christian lives,say our prayers, weep for our sins, and truly love our neighbor. All around us we can see how unhappy most people are, how empty they feel living their lives without God. Children receive no religious or moral training either at home or at school,and now, as we know they can"t say "under God," for it offends the godless. Let us all concentrate on our own spirituaL struggle and come to love God with all our heart, and believe me, others will begin to se that Light which we will have in our souls.

[Owen Jones]

As we say in AA, Father, it's a program of attraction, not promotion. I will only add one thing to your list. Forsaking wealth and power for the Gospel makes a huge impression on people.

[John Curtis Dunn]

As we say in AA, Father, it's a program of attraction, not promotion. I will only add one thing to your list. Forsaking wealth and power for the Gospel makes a huge impression on people.
---

However, the huge impression is not always a positive thing. The choice to live simply and with out a sustained program of accumulation is out of step with most of modern life. There are those who are looking for a 'respectable religion' and observing any kind of self-denial which curtails our modern propensity towards accumulation is viewed as 'out of touch' with God's blessings.

There is the Herod factor. Remember, Herod wanted to see Jesus perform a miracle. Many people approach religion for its entertainment value. I have observed that talking about God is often approached as "Entertainment Tonight." God is discussed in the same manner that the Hollywood reporters discuss the latest fashions of the "stars."

The Apostle Paul himself had to contend with this, remember Felix? This same Aposlte found it necessary to describe his ministry as "not peddling the word of God as some." I suspect that one of the pogroms to destroy the souls of men in these last days, has been to flood the marketplace of religious discussion with pseudo-Christianities whose aim is to entertain souls to heaven.

john

[Fr Averky]

I don't know that living the life of trying to be a good Christian will make a "huge" impression on anyone: The world is taken up so much by the moment that even a big news story ( other than the insanity of the present administration to have its war, no matter the expense and loss of prestige), does not last long. The terrible tragedy of the space shuttle lasted but a few days. Hopefully, if we can ourselves do our very best daily, people will see it. I recently started to serve a small parish to keep the doors open, and a young parishioner of mine who is a freshman in college tells me how other students come to him with their problems, fears and loneliness. He is the product of a good Orthodox home, and he has never smoked or touched liquor, remains pure, never misses church, is kind and good-hearted and respectful to others. He doews not really openly discuss his faith, but his classmates can sense something about him-that he is stable, level-headed, and does not suffer from many of their problems. By living a good Christian life, he is able to help many around him. I have urged him, if the proper occasion should come up, to invite some of his friends to church -we will see...

[Andonis]

how important is solitude according to orthodoxy? would love to hear peoples knowledge and opinion on this. it appears the modern era does little if any to promote solitude, as a normal and beneficial human practise. although it was and is a well known practise of ascetics, saints etc, it is not nearly as often mentioned as important for the lay population. in fact, solitude in the modern age has often been stigmatised as being something in the order of what ill-adjusted social misfits do. i know personally that solitude for me is as important as attending liturgies and receiving communion in my spirituality. all opinions welcome...

[Fr Averky]

For some reason, people seem to equate "solitude" with "loneliness." Having spent many years in both states, I can tell you that there is a big difference. Solitude is a positive. I now really like to be by myself, and now and again when circumstances permit, I will allow myself the luxury of going to a decent restaurant by myself. There around 80 people living in the monastery, and many times people have come to me, telling me of their loneliness. I know married people with children who feel lonely and isolated. Solitude forces us to be with ourselves and look at ourselves,but modern man does not want to do that. When you have come to accept who you are, with all your good and your failings, you can then be comfortable being quiet, listening to music, reading, or just sitting. During the Summer, our monks take walks or sit outside somewhere and read. Remember that when you read of the solitude of the saints and ascetics, that centuries ago there was not much difference in life style for monks or laymen. When you read about the monks in the desert eating simple bread, dates, and oil, the people in the towns had about the same diet. Sad to say, people want to have constant "pleasure," avoiding pain, loneliness and sorrow. The Christian has to carry his cross, and some times it means loneliness until solitude is achieved. God help you with your struggles during Great Lent!

[John Curtis Dunn]

I would rather say, "Solitude, is medicinal." Stating it in this manner means it can positively affect our spiritual health. However, as with any medicine, improper usage can result in negative effects within the personality...and lead into self-delusions.

I am curious though, what kinds of resturants fall into the category of "indecent?"

It also seems apparent,although solitude has a restorative value (even our Lord practiced it when He could), it still remains: "It is not good for man to be alone." This was God's assessment of man's isolated condition prior to man's fall into sin.

Our Orthodoxy leads into "Communion" with God and our neighbor not away from the latter.

john

[Fr Averky]

John.
What I meat by "decent" is a medium range place, not a greasy spoon, or an expensive French restaurant. Solitude can be medicinal, but how one's state of mind is at the time he is alone has something to do with it also; a person can see being alone as pleasant solitude, or tormenting loneliness. Thank youfor your comment-well taken.

Fr. A.

[peter derick]

hello father hieromonk a.. i father would like it if you could explain to me the gift of discernment can a christian struggling in the first stage of spiritual life purification have that gift of god when needed at times,i dont really understand it i mean just say how can some one who would need it alot like a priest know if when some one is asking him a question all these thoughts come to the priests head holy thoughts that could be from the devil wolves in sheeps clothing the fathers say of such thoughts how can he know if there from god or the devil i think you most likely have experianced this grace of discernment being a spiritual father can you explain please i would like this gift god forbid to be a show off i mean isnt it allright to desire it do you have to be in a certain spiritual level to have it can some one in the purification level pray to be enlightened of the holy spirit and know the voice of god when neseccary? your friend peter of australia

[Fr Averky]

Dear Peter,

As you yourself say,spiritual discernement is a gift from God, as are any of the virtues. I cannot say that I have particular discernment, but when one deals with people and their problems for many years, you begin to be able to see certain problems, patterns of behaviour, and so on, allowing you to be helpful. I would say generally, that when a person starts to think that he has reached spiritual heights, that his prayer makes him feel very satisfied, and he begins to look at others as being spiritually unfortunate, then the Evil One has filled his heart and mind with pride, taking him far from God. Our approach to God should be with honesty and simplicity, for that is how He presents Himself to us. I am sure that there have been times when you have done something or said something, and then thought to yourself, "What ever came over me? Why did I do or say that? This happens especially during the heat of an argument, when a person, out of inspiration from the devil, says something that is really very cruel. Later, when things are calmer, he feels very sorry for those hurtful words, and wonders how he even had such terrible thoughts, and even worse, expressed them. All virtues are gifts from God, and if we truly want them, we must beg God to give them to us, and ourselves try, with His help, to be a better person. In our daily lives, it would better for all of us, if we could really treat our neighbors as ourselves. Forgive my poor answer.

[peter derick]

hello father rev a..

thank you father for the last answer to my question it was not poor my father it was very nice,father i have another question of the spiritual life first i would like an short commentary if you will the scripture (luke 6 30) where it says (give to everyone who asks of you and from him who takes away your goods dont ask them back again) i have a problem with this scripture ill tell you, i really wanna save up some money around 1 thousand dollars to go to a monastery in australia i live in western australia and there are no monasterys here only in other parts of australia like sydney where i wanna go, the plane ticket is expensive thats why i need to save that much money also i only get 3 hundred and 34 dollars every two weeks, but when i get my pay my sister who when she gets paid spends her money in a stuipid way and she allways asks everyone for money i have stopped giving her money cause for one she dosent pay any one at the time when she said she would pay them only after insisting and insisting to pay you back eventually she does,so if i follow that commandment of jesus how am i meant to save and go to that monastery to just visit and get a spiritual edification if i give her that money if i dont ask it back she most likely think to her self he forgot or i will ignore his telephone calls and not give it back to him which she has done in the past but has paid late while i go hungry for food and stuff for days are there exeptions if she spends it in a silly way her pay she gets and asks me should i say no and let her ask some one else is that a sin if i do that after all what jesus said give to all that asks i mean if people are gonna do that literally in every situation that people asks them i think maybe they would probably end up with nothing eventually, please help me give me a spiritual council here father it has bothered me for ages tell me what to do and i will do it. your friend peter

[Andonis]

i would like to bring up the issue of temptation. what happens when you feel that you are tempted beyond your strengths into a type of vice? is it better to virtually as the bible says "take your eye out, or cut off your hand", in the sense take yourself away from the temptation completely. if so, doesn't that defeat the purpose which is to develop dispassion in the face of temptations? or are we to admit to ourselves that some things are just tempting beyond our strengths and that it is better to just cut yourself off, remove yourself from the source of the temptation entirely. would love some feedback.

[John Wilson]

Andonis, doesn't God promise that we will NOT be tempted beyond our strength?

It seems to me that if you "feel" you are being tempted beyond your strength, you are simply laying down the weapons that God has armed you with and surrendering. I speak of my own failings here, so please don't take this personally. It is one of the things I am trying specifically to deal with during this Lent.

John

[Andonis]

John, thank you for your frank and honest answer. i realise that yes indeed i have been doing exactly as you say, laying down my arms and surrendering. even though God has equiped me with many weapons, i have refused to accept them. and hence my weakness in the face of temptation. i must once again become vigilant.

by the way, would love to hear more about your experience in greece, what made you decide to go there, what kind of work do you do, do you find the lifestyle to be more christian reflecting orthodox views? maybe we could continue this in the general conversation thread...

[John Wilson]

Yes, sorry I haven't responded to your email yet. My time is unfortunately not my own. You have not been forgotten though, and I promise I will write.

BTW I learned through a nun at the monastery of Saint Rousanou, Meteora that there is an orthodox monastery in Melbourne (she was a nun there for 7 years before coming to Greece) and wondered if you visit. Alas I cannot remember the name of the monastery or where exactly it is located.

John.

[Andonis]

yes there is a nun's monastery in the coastal city of Geelong about an hour out of melbourne. there are currently 5 nun's residing there, and they have a brilliant orthodox bookshop. i visit there very frequently, they have excellenty suplicatory services for the Theotokos after Sunday liturgy. they are also great to chat with over a coffee on the Sunday afternoon. they also make there own icons.

[Andonis]

Hi John,
just to add a further querie from what you said a few posts prior, that i am to arm myself with the weapons God has given me. althought i agree, that this is ideal, what if i simply can't? i think the only way for me to be truest to my conscience, and live the true christian life more authentically would mean to remove myself to a large degree from the world. to simply try and arm myself with God's weapons, is becoming increasingly harder in secular society of which Satan is prince. and there is room in scripture for actually removing the source of temptation, or removing oneself from the source, when in actual fact you find it too overwhelming. just like in AA they don't advise an alcoholic to be attending pubs and bars, should we also take the same approach when warranted? or is this considered cowardice in God's eyes? is avoidance as good a cure for the soul?
Andonis

[Andonis]

i found this quote in article

"it is possible to meet "Orthodox" who are in fact sectarians at heart: fanatic, unloving, narrow minded, persistent in human precision, not hungering or thirsting after God’s truth, but gorged with their own presumptuous truth"

http://www.holy-trinity.org/spirituality/john.sectarianism.html

what i find interesting about it is the bit about persistency in human precision. this seems to be the spirit in which modern man works and lives, the drive for productivity and efficiency is relentless. on the other hand it has mass produced goods that would otherwise be scarse, expensive and not as available. why does the orthodox church critisise this obsession with "human precision"?

[Sherman Cheung]

mmmm...
What if we're tempted by a very cute girl?
You know you can't hold yourself from .. "stuff"

[Owen Jones]

Andonis,

The church is a hospital for sick souls. It provides a diagnosis, a treatment and a kind of hospice (ideally). What you state above is a diagnosis of an obsession. Any and all obsessions are part of our sickness. That is not to say that you can't be obssessed about something that is otherwise a good thing. Prosperity, innovation, economic development -- these are not bad things. ONly bad for us when we become obssessed. The "modern" obssession, or one of them, is to fool ourselves into thinking that we can live without God, that we can transform nature and take control of our own destiny. We build an ideology around things that are otherwise good -- such as enterprise. We turn it into a false religion in violation of the first commandement. That's what an obssession amounts to in Biblical terms -- a violation of the First Commandment.

[Fr Averky]

Sherman Cheung

Could you please express your statement in spiritual terms? Thank You!

Father Averky

[Fr Averky]

Adonis,

I rather suspect that the Church is critical of those who are obssessed with being foolish. You are a sensible young man, and are capable of answering these questions yourself-for they are in your heart: look there, and you will find them. Try to spend less time concentrating on doubts or asking rather general questions, but draw upon all that you do know to be true. I have been following your posts, and you know more than enough to reach salvation, now, you just have to concentrate on that task more fully.
All the best,

Fr. Averky

[Andonis]

father Averky,
thank you for your kind and encouraging words. i do feel i know a lot about what is true, but in application i am often the worst sinner there can be. it fills me with shame, for i am trully grateful that i have come across the truth, but ashamed that i don't live by it. i fear God's admonishment for my cowardice to live out the truth that i have discovered. i pray daily that he gives me the strength to be brave, and with total faith live this beautiful truth, for God and everything about his truth is the most blessed and beautiful thing there can be. Father i am sure you have much to do already, but if you could throw in a small prayer for me i would appreciate it. i often feel if i could just defeat just a few more passions i could reach a spiritual realm much greater to where i am now. as i try and ascend the ladder, just like in the famous painting, the demons increase the intensity with which they fight me.
Andonis

[Fr Averky]

Dear Anonis,

I only today realized I missed seeing your reply, and I have sent you a personal message.

Be at peace, for you have all the pieces of the puzzle - with patience and prayer, one day you will have put them all in place, and from them a beautiful picture will appear of someone created in God's own image, and picture will be...you.

love,

Father Averky

[Andonis]

Hello Father Averky,
how do i access the personal message? am not sure. thank you for taking the trouble, your words are soothing...
Andonis

[John Wilson]

Andonis, when someone sends a private message on this forum, it gets sent as email (which you have no doubt already discovered on checking your mail http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/wink.gif)

Kali Anastasi!
John.

[Andonis]

Episis Kali Anastasi John, thanks for the tip. hadn't used that email in a while so it got deactivated, don't know if you have the time father Averky, but if you have a copy would appreciate it if you re send it. otherwise, i hope the holy spirit can transmit the message into my brain.
Andonis

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ, Adonis

A friend was visitng me and used my modem for his own lap top, and somehow made a mess for me. I suddenly found myself unable to access the data base for Monochos. When I did get back on, it was as a guest. I then had to open a ne w acount and that had an error too, because my secular name popped up, and I had to change my profile.

I seem to be back on line, and I will send you a personal letter. I think that you did not get it at all. In fact, I sent you two, but you did not receive them, for if you are receiving notification of mail from this forum, then you would have received my letters.

Be assured of my love and concern for you, and I will write -it is very difficult with all the monastic services. I am in such pain at night that I cannot sleep, please pray for me Adonis, I rely on your prayers and good thoughts.


John, thank you for your help.

Love in christ,

Hieromonk Averky

[Andonis]

hello all,

one area i find very difficult to come to grips with in the Christian life is that of judgement. i found an interesting quote online:

"It is all too easy to make light of judging our neighbor, excusing it as mere "observation". Such justification only leads the soul into delusion, self-exaltation and eventual perdition. In the opinion of the Holy Fathers, it is "safe" to make such "observations" only if a person has a clean heart and if such observation is for the purpose of edifying".

i know that i am overly judgemental and have an over whelming sense of self righteousness. this causes me to judge others. but i am not always sure that this form of judgement is unholy. this is where i get confused. when i judge, i simply in my mind form an opinion on a person based on my experiences with them. for instance recently one of my best freinds, showed what i deemed to be appaling and callous behaviour towards me. for me, this revealed in him an unclean heart, prone to jealousies and selfish ambition. this obviously for me injured the trust between us, to the point where i know that i will never trust him again. non withstanding of this, i do fully appreciate that he is a human being full of weaknesses as i am also. i appreciate that he may have, even for a period been under the influence of evil spirits, with which he was unable to contend with. i did not persecute him for his transgression towards me, nor did i seek to enact revenge. unless you can call revenge that fact that i do not maintain a close freindship anymore and keep him at a distance. is this judging? for i feel based on my experience it is justified for me to want to protect myself from more potential harm that his behaviour can bring to me. aside from letting him know my feelings, i really feel that our relationship will never be redeemed to its prior status. i also fully appreciate that he may one day (if he hasn't already) repent for what happened and return to being the beautiful human being God designed him to be. despite this our relationship is severed forever. it saddens and hurts me a great deal, but this is what i feel in my heart. what i do pray for is that next time in his life he finds a freind he trully honours and loves, his behaviour will reflect this more completely than what it did with me.

i often find these thought torturous, because at the end of the day, i wish not to judge as i do see myself the worst of all sinners. but my response towards this freind of mine, i feel comes straight from the heart, and not from pride and anger. would appreciate your advice fellow orthodox christians...

Andonis

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Andonis,
"Deal with the faults of others, as gently as with your own."
Br Paul

[Fr Averky]

Adonis,

The description of you friend having fallen from your grace makes the observer of your story wonder just what kind of friend you were. I always find it interesting when we go along with someone, thinking that they are our "friend" until those times that they might become rude or thoughtless or not be there when we think that they should be, or seemingly betray us, and so on. Then, we say that they are not our friend, and we do not want to forgive them.

Adonis, in the course of our lives, we all go throguh periods of stress and doubts and fears, and sometimes we push away those who could help us the most. sometimes, it is true that we fall pray to the Evil One, who desires that soul-saving relationships not last, trying to cause enmity between Christian friends. However, I would say that the average Christian lacks the deep spiritual discernmnet to know whether or not another for a period of time has been under the influence of evil spirits or not. I of course do not know the situation at all, but is theee something that you yourself could have done or said that prompted your former friends actions? Maybe your friend is suffering or was suffering, and could not tell you why. I am not judging yiou in sosfar as I cannot, but if you have had a long-standing friendship with someone, then you simply have to understand that there will be good times and bad, and that a friendhsip is a true one if it can withstand periods of unpleasantness and even anger and belligerence.

And, as to whether or not our forgiveness will restore a person to their former spiritual beauty has nothing to with our feelings one way or another. It is God who forgives, and it is God who restores our shattered image of Him, not the shattered image that our friends thought us to be or expected us to be. Your judgement is very harsh, and if it is so, how do you expect God to be forgiving of you? How often do you shatter that image of the Divine which is you? what if God, just once, decided "That is it, I'm through with that Arrogant little twirp Adonis - if he cannot forgive others, then, I will not forgive Him. Or perhaps, in time I will forgive him, but he can never ever be assured of my love and friendship ever again. The demons clouded his mind against Me, and I have lost interest in him -forever...

Shame on us if we ever think in such a manner. Shame on usif we put ourself in judgement of our brother, shame on us if we will not forgive 70x70 as Jesus Christ the Apostle Peter to do. Adonis, I am shocked and appalled by your posting, and I hope that you will hasten to repent of it.

Father Averky

[Andonis]

father,
i apologise for having shocked you but its the honest truth. i made it quite clear, that i do not bear a grudge, and in my heart i have forgiven my freind. furthermore, if i had acted the way my freind had towards me and received the same treatment as i now subject him too, i would be completely comfortable with this. i stress again, that i am not judging him because i am not condemning him. i simply choose to no longer maintain the same level of freindship. this does not mean that i wouldn't run to his aid, or give him what i deem is the obligation of a Christian, for i would run to the aid of even my enemies under certain circumstances. but just because i would exercise my Christian responsibilites towards my neighbour, doesn't necessarily dictate, nor does it have to mirror the level of freindship i have with them. i love my neighbour because he is made in the image of God like myself, i respect them, i treat them with dignity, i dress their wounds when they are injured etc. freindship is earnt. i may indeed be suffering from a bad case of spiritual short sightedness, but i sincerely feel in my heart that my reaction is the most appropriate one. my reaction does not stem from judgement, it stems rather from beleiving and adhering to my principles and wishing to maintain my self respect. i still fail to see how this is wrong, may God forgive my foolish and feeble thoughts...

Andonis

[Fr Averky]

Adonis,

St. John of Kronstadt says:

Whenever your brother sins against you in any way - for instance if he speaks ill of you, or transmits with an evil intention your words in a perverted form to another, or calumniates you, - do not be angered against him, but seek to find in him those good qualities which undoubtedly exist in every man, and dwell lovingly on them, despising his evil calumnies concerning you as being dross, not worth attention, as an illusion of the Devil. The gold -diggers do not pay attention to the quantitiy of sand and dirt in the gold-dust, but only look for the grains of gold; and though they are but few, they value this small quantity, anmd wash it out of heaps of useless sand. God acts in a like manner with us, cleansing us with great and long forbearance.

Every person that does any evil, that gratifies any passion, is sufficiently punished by the evil he has committed by the passions he serves, but chiefly by the fact that he withdraws himself from God, and God withdraws Himself from him: it would therefore be insane and most inhuman to nourish anger against such a man; it would be the same as push a drowning man further down into the water, or push into the fire a person who is already being devoured by flames. To such a man, as to one in danger of perishing, we must show double-love, and pray fervently to God for him; not judging him, not rejoicing in his misfortune.

Do not pay attention to the words of an arrogant man, but rather to their power. It often happens that words appear to be harsh at first sight, but do not proceed from any harshness of the heart, but only from habit. How would it be if every one paid strict critical attention to our words, withour Christian love, indulgent, sheltering, kindly, and patient? We would have died long ago."

There is not one of us who has not in his life betrayed a friendship, or hurt some one who has cared for us. It is the Lord who judges - we cannot judge the "purity" of the heart of another. we can only sigh and look at our own sinfulness. If we look back, and are honest with ourselves, we will have to admit that we are in no position to judge anyone. In the last year, the person I counted as my longest and best friend quietly slipped away from me, and now we are like strangers. On the other hand, a person who for years judged me and often slandered me, and insulted me to my face, during Great Lent asked for forgiveness, saying that he had believed many lies against me for years, but only now saw that they were not true. With joy and tears, we reconciled, and it was a great gift tom me. We are not so perfect that we can judge our brother, for we all fail as friends at one time or another, and when we have a falling out, we must, as St. John of Kronstadt says, think of the good things. I lost the warmth and closeness I once had with my old friend, but now and again we can still sit and recall so many wonderful moments we have shared over the years, and I know in my heart, that before the end, we will again pick up where we left off. Many people, pressures, circumstances and sorrows have pushed us apart, but the very deep love that we have for each other as brothers will prevail. I can only pray that whatever happened between you and your friend can be resolved -we have few friends in this life, Adonis, and we must treasure them.

Fr. Averky

A little note: The Fathers do make a discernment of that judging which leads to the condemnation of our brother, and that judging which, while acknowledging his failings and shortcomings, does so with the view and intention of helping him set himself aright, for to do so shows true Christian love. This kind of "judging," is acceptable, for it seeks the salvation of one's brother, not to cast him out into darkness.

[Owen Jones]

Question:

Does the Orthodox final judgment day come one week later than for Protestants and CAtholics? I really need to know.

[Andonis]

father Averky,

i am once again greatly indebted for the wisdom that you offer me. i treasure it greatly. your post spoke to my heart, and i feel i have a slightly better grasp of where it is that i went wrong. the notion of throwing somebody in the dark is a frightening one, and i would never wish this upon even my worst enemy. i personally beleive that in the situation with my freind, i did all that i could to show him where the true light lies, that being the church. how he uses my advice i have left up to God. i did this because i felt that both our salvation will not be aided by continuing to coach him in close proximity. in fact i felt that some distance will allow him to reflect more deeply as to how some behaviour can really damage another person, and develop more the virtue of humility . In addition to also seek the answers from God directly through prayer, instead of looking for a shoulder to cry on all the time. at the same time in my prayers i pray for forgiveness if i have made an error of judgement. i pray that my reasoning is not inspired by the evil one to serve evil purposes. the more i think about it, the more i see that getting involved in human affairs means that we will make errors. we can only pray that these errors did not lead this person in the wrong direction, and by the grace of God these errors where turned into a form of illumination, as God has the ability to do.

God bless you father, i will pray that God keeps you well so that we can continue to be inspired by your wisdom...

Andonis

[Fr Averky]

Owen, Let me answer you with a story from the history of the Council of Florence: A latin bishop asked a Greek bishop, "Do you have any idea what the essence of hell fire is?" The Gree k bishop answered him in the following manner, "I do not know know, but I am sure that you will have ample opportunity to find out for yourself."

I never cease to be amazed by your anger and bitterness - besides looking at everything with a critical and scholarly view, do you really believe in God and salvation at all or is this some little mind game you play - taunting others? I and others try to give you every benefit of the doubt, but you take every chance to be nasty, petty, and insulting - very poor show indeed..

[Fr Averky]

Adonis,

You are "coaching" your friend? How can that be, when you are always talking about being confused? How can you teach, when you have so much to learn? Please explain.

Fr. Averky

[Owen Jones]

Actually, my comment above was meant to be humorous. I was watching Jack Van Impe on TV. Unfortunately, e-mail does not register tone of voice.

[Fr Averky]

Owen,

I'll accept that. I did think, however, that you might enjoy the little Latin-Greek bishop exchange.

Fr. Averky

[Fr Averky]

Adonis,

I think when Br. Paul was telling you that your temptations are normal and natural, he was telling you that your reactions are that of a healthy young male concerned about temptations of the flesh. With this I do agree, and he is cautioning you to be careful in not going overboard one way or the other. Paradoxically, by concentrating too much on the "evils" of sexuality, one can be all the more tempted to fall into sins of the flesh. It indeed is important that you do not think of your sexuality as being evil and you should of course see that your desires for the companionship of a woman is in line with your nature. Sexuality is indeed a part of all of us, but we have to look at it in the light of the teachings of the Church and and its role in our path to salvation.

As you know, you and I have discussed this concept before, and therefore did I give you my much longer answer, wanting you to look at this question from the spiritual aspects which I presented. Your are concerned with the temptations to fall into sin in regards to your sexuality, but as I pointed out, all of our passions are linked to one another, so that if you can be moderate in all things, then your struggle with desires of the flesh - that is to say the things of this world - all of them will not be so difficult. I rather think that Brother Paul is telling you not to be overly concerned with these temptations. If we listen to our thoughts, then of course, in time we will fall. On the other hand, if we can learn to quickly "change the subject," driving impure or any improper thoughts from our mind, then they will not be able to have such a bad effect on us. We are all bombarded with thousands upon thousands of thoughts every day - we have the choice to entertain or reject them. Again, you know that you have the answer, just be strong. I have every confidence that with God's help,you will. I hope that I have understood what Br. Paul was saying to you, and if not I ask him to correct me if I need to be.

As always, Adonis, be patient, be humble, struggle, and pray.

In Christ,

Father Averky

[Br Paul Zimmerman]

Fr Averky,
Thank you Father, you have understood what I saying to Adonis.
Br Paul

[cale]

I am wondering if it is a good idea to write music while in the early stages of the spiritual life. I am not a musician, I do not play an instrument, but for years I have enjoyed making music with my computer. I seem to have some musical talent and it seemed for a long time to simply be a good creative, contructive use of otherwise idle time.

Lately though I have been reading and thinking about the way the imagination works with regard to to the powers of the soul and the way we use, or misuse our senses, and I am less inclined to spend the kind of time I used to with headphones and a screen constituting the sole input of my mind and heart. There is also the issue of vanity. On the other hand, I am aware of the danger of being tempted to perhaps go overboard and stop pursuing music altogether in a misgiuded attempt to be more "spiritual", if you know what I mean.

Does anyone have anything to say about this that might be helpful to me? I know there are Orthodox musicians like John Tavener out there, whose music I enjoy very much. But I am employing drum machines, bass and synths in my compositions, and these seem to be kind of earthly, fleshy sounds compared to classical music, and I dont think I have what it takes to be a real musician.

I dont have a problem with giving this whole music thing up if it is the right way to go, I have uninstalled all my music software while I ponder this question so if anyone can help me out on this I would really be willing to listen to their views.

Thankyou all.

[Richard McBride]

monochos : ORTHODOX LIFESTYLES

Blessed of the Lord, Cale;

I have thought about sending a message to encourage everyone to re-read your first pair of messages. Everyone who is conscious of seeking The Way can benefit from the experiences which you generously share with us. Especially, I feel that your messages hit that narrow space between ascetic and worldly life, which seems so important for us who are in the world.

So, mostly out of gratitude for your Spirit filled witness, I offer some advice on your musical question. But not only is my gratitude NOT sufficient to inform and teach you in your situation, but I am not a musician. I say this so you can judge whether to put any credence in my advice. My credentials are as a designer and teacher of architectural aesthetics, and as a onetime child pianist. But my musical talents are not enough to admire. If you are one of those who believes that only specialists know anything -- however narrow their specialty may be -- then you should stop reading right now. I am an unrepentant generalist, so you may want to get me behind thee.
.................................................. ...

However, if you have crossed the line, I shall recall to you important words from Ortega y Gasset, who was one of the very few who have words capable of helping people in creative fields. (His "Dehumanization of the Arts" is essential reading for creative types, but this particualr quote comes from his "Revolt of the Masses".) He says:
"The average man finds himself with "ideas" in his head, but he lacks the faculty of ideation."
This refers to verbal ideas, or musical ideas, or visual ideas. This basis is the same for all. He continues:
"He has no conception even of the faculty of ideation."
This refers to that which is necessary for development of an idea; it is the regimen to which any particular group of ideas belongs, or of which they are a part. He continues:
"He has no conception even of the rare atmosphere in which ideas live. He wishes to have opinions, but is unwilling to accept the conditions and presuppositions that underlie all opinion. Hence his ideas are in effect nothing more than appetites in words, something like musical romanzas."
Again, I stress that 'idea' here refers to the nascent notions everyone has from time to time. They may refer to sewing a dress or painting a room. But for artists, musicians, or designers of all kinds, each of these professionals designs their work first, then carries it out -- for professional designers, their hard earned regimen is what makes the difference between them and an earnest amateur. The 'profession' itself consists far more in gaining control of this nascent idea stage, than it does in fine-tuning the performance.

But Ortega's words are so important, I cannot but help continue with his quotation:
"To have an idea means believing one is in possession of the reasons for having it, and consequently means believing that there is such a thing as reason, a world of intelligible truths. To have ideas, to form opinions, is identical with appealing to such an authority, submitting oneself to it, accepting its code and its decisions, and therefore believing that the highest form of intercommunion is the dialogue in which the reasons for our ideas are discussed...

But the mass man would feel himself lost if he accepted discussion, and instinctively repudiates the obligation of accepting that supreme authority lying outside himself."

Clearly, Cale, you have submitted yourself to the authority of the Fathers, and not only have you followed their "code" you but have apparently profited greatly thereby. So, carrying that regimen over into music is not something which should be foreign to you.

First, however, I shoudl advise you not to be too quick in assuming that you do indeed possess the will to persist in the arduous regimen which you must gain in order to learn to create music. But, if you had not done so persistently well in ascetic struggles, I should not have bothered to even tell these things to you.

Second, I will warn you of an extremely difficult fallacy embedded in people who have learned to manipulate facsimiles of idea-making on a PC. This is a deadly beginning. That is why most computer so-called art is so bad. The perpetrators have not a clue that they cannot learn to design on a computer.

The only way out of this dead end is to return to infancy. If you want to design music, then return to an instrument and master its techniques -- NOT A SYNTHASIZER. Return to the piano, the clarinet (I have played both of these, but not very well), or a stringed or brass instrument (not drums). Just as one who wants to design beautiful cabinets must learn the router, the saw, the drill and the clamp; or one who wants to sculpt, must learn to draw in three or four dimensions, even while they are learning the necessary handwork of chopping, scraping, carving; or one who would paint must first learn to draw and sketch, then control colours; or one who would design architecture must spend hours learning to do beautiful freehand drawings. PC people never learn this secret. It is hand-eye coordination which informs the creative act, like babies learning to control their bodies by climbing stairs. It is a matter of making the synapses of the brain to understand what their work should be. And if one assiduously practices, and practices, and practices, eventually one learns to smash the tennis ball 1/2" over the net at 90 miles an hour; or one eventually learns to drive a golf ball 300 yards with a controlled fade of 15 yards at its termination.

All design is body work; or if not, then it is just silly ideas. And a third limitation I should advise, is that just as you have a spiritual advisor -- because you know you cannot find God on your own weak powers -- just so you must find a master musician to guide you in music making.

Obviously, Cale, you must be very serious about the matter -- indeed, so serious that you can treat the whole thing as a joke. Anyone who tells you that you can learn to be a composer of any sort, without the regimen I have described, either is lying (perhaps, because they don't want you as a competitor), or they know nothing more other mass men.

Whatever you do Cale, I pray that the Holy Spirit continually purge your heart of its dead works, so that you will always have a bright, clean room there for Him to inhabit.

richard mcb
who can never seem to write the short message

[cale]

Wow. Thankyou for that Richard. That information is gold. I will find these books you are quoting from and read them as soon as possible.

After reading your post I listened to some music I have generated using this strange machine that claims to become any other machine and none, and I realised that that I have no idea what the purpose of music actually is. (intellectualy I assume its purpose as being to Glorify God)

Thankyou again, I will try not to attempt to design any more music until my fingers are resting on keys that are either purely white or purely black, instead of white keys with black letters printed on them.

As I ponder this more, I realise that I should have known these truths already . What you have described about the basis of design being body work really got me. I have been skateboarding for 15 years and since all my old friends have left town I am forced to skate with young people who still think skating is some kind of "sport" or "fun". They can be frustrating to hang out with but sometimes I smile when I remember that one day they will realise they have been becoming artists.

I have a friend who is an accomplished pianist and I think I may contact him about learning from him his art.

In skating we say the only teacher is the pavement. Thanks, Richard, for being the pavement.

Glorify Him.

[Richard McBride]

MONOCHOS: Orthodox Lifestyles

Blessed of the Lord, Cale:

It is truly a gift and blessing that so many young people share their experiences of the Paraclete on Monochos. It is heartening to us, we who have lived so long with such hard hearts and the poisons we have ingested over a lifetime, to hear how we might have prospered at an early age, had we too been open to the Word, rather than being bound in this world of ambitions and pointless struggles.

We are heartened to hear of your experiences, Cale, and at the same time we are fearful for you -- we pray that you continue to be led, that you remain always open to the guiding Spirit who will be sent amongst us all, yet again this next Sunday of Pentecost.

GLORY TO THEE, OH LORD! GLORY TO THEE!

Also, Cale, if you have not read Saint Symeon the New Theologian, whom Father Averky mentioned earlier on another thread, there is a story which this Saint passes on to us, and it is wonderful for its impact upon our lives in this world.

In The Philokalia, vol. IV, Saint Symeon's story is titled, "On Faith". As the Saint tells it, the story is of, "A man by the name of George, young of age -- he was about twenty -- was living in Constantinople during our own times." It is thought, however, that "George" may really be the story of Saint Symeon (949-1022). He tells of his initial Theosis, of falling away, and then struggling back. And while this is a story which could be told of countless others who have found God and then lapsed (it is truly all too common), the return climb out of the pit is so awful, that we weep for ourselves and others who have been unable to remain constantly in the blessed life-giving shadow of God.

I earnestly encourage you to read it, Cale. And if you have trouble finding the book, let me know and I will have it sent to you.

We pray for each other as we approach the Saturday of the Souls, and then Pentecost.

GLORY TO THEE, OH LORD! GLORY TO THEE AND TO THE TRUTH WHOM THOU WILST SEND AMONGST US!

[Richard McBride]

monochos:

Baptist Evangelizing

In the 75 page manual, titled:

Witnessing to People of Eastern
Orthodox Background:
Turning Barriers of Belief into
Bridges to Personal Faith
[ a doctoral project approved by Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.]

this is the first paragraph of the Preface:

"Rarely in the history of missions has such a large area opened to the gospel as did
Eastern Europe following the fall of Communism in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s.
Although clearly God was at work behind the “wall” prior to the fall, once the wall fell,
there was an unparalleled openness and freedom for sharing the good news of Jesus
Christ. Thousands came from the West to participate in evangelizing people who for so
many years had been told by Communist governments that there was no God. Many who came were surprised to find that despite the years of Communism, many people in
Eastern Europe claim to have a Christian heritage via the Eastern Orthodox Church. What are the beliefs of the Orthodox Church and how should these beliefs affect our attempts to witness? The manual I have written is an attempt to address this question.
The manual may be used by individuals or groups. "

What is truly chilling in this 'manual' is that, by immediately publishing beautiful interiors of a small church in Moscova, these hardened proselytizers are shown to be oblivious to its content: The presence of the Holy Spirit; and thus even to its impact as a true place of worship.

I have confronted these types a few times, but until seeing this manual I had no idea how determined they were to inculcate their neo-religiousos cultic devices; which is to say, to destroy Orthodoxy. And what is truly dismaying, they are using understanding of Orthodoxy itself, here, to reinforce their own visions of domination and control. It is truly chilling, to see how clever is this manual, and then how the proselytizers come away, being unaffected by the presence of God.

Father Justin McFeeters (Antiochian Archdiocese) passed this on from Father Anthony
fr.anthony@orthodox.org;
to see the whole manual in PDF, use this URL:
http://www.namb.net/evangelism/iev/PDF/BB_E_Orthodox_Manual.pdf

[cale]

I have heard of that story about Saint Symeon but I have never read it. We have an Orthodox book store in town and I will buy this volume and read it this week.

I like this website, its good to talk to so many people just about faith and nothing else. Everyone here is really good and thanks all for the love and truth you have shared with me.

Its strange how, if we try to make light of this life, our hearts become heavy. But if we take take it seriously, striving to realise the gravity of the situation and the ultimate consequences of each and every deed, word and thought, our hearts become light and free. Maybe its because of the impossibility of our actualy living according the commandments, the only way we can travel this path is to be carried. Humilty is really just reality isnt it?

Thanks alot for the prompt reply to my question on music Richard, it can be hard to get an honest and informed answer such as you supplied in this age of flattery and mis-guidance. Some of the people who know me, like family and friends, sometimes seem disappointed that I have not lived up to what they see as my potential for success or lack of ambition in pursuing education or a career, so I love to talk to people who understand what life is really about. I hope you all are sleeping well, its morning here and Im off to work.

God bless you all,

Love cale.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

Thank you for your good advice to Cale. You are most correct in your assessment -no good thing or any talent can ever be developed without proper education, learning, practice and lots of hard work. So too with the spiritual life. It cannot be just a pleasant notion, but a life time of hard work, education, and real practice. Of course, we all do better if we have a master in our craft to help us. And, in the spiritual life, so too do we have a Master, Who, if we turn to Him will send us many lessons, will gives us ample examples of His form of schoolling, and will put us often to the test. If we learn to practice this sacred art in all of its various aspects, we will have become students who are most precious to Him. Cale, listen to the wise words of Richard, and if you choose to pursue any good thing, ask for God's mercy, help and inspiration, and if it is His will, you will soar. At any rate, become a good student of the sacred art of prayer, of repentance, of the aqcuiring of the Holy spirit, and your life in the present and in the future will be golden.

In Christ,

Father Averky

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Cale's post no. 8Hi Cale. I just wanted to respond to something you said in your last message. “Some of the people who know me, like family and friends, sometimes seem disappointed that I have not lived up to what they see as my potential for success or lack of ambition in pursuing education or a career, so I love to talk to people who understand what life is really about.”

The Second Commandment : Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images….Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them”

“Knowledge. skill, money and works also can become graven images if they are not put to their proper use, that of serving and nourishing the pure faith in the One Lord and God.”

This is part of a book I have explaining just what the Ten Commandments mean.

All too often we put ambition so high on our list of priorities that it overshadows everything else, and most people don’t understand someone who wants to follow another path. Today people see successful people (successful =economical) as those worthy of admiration, or of emulating. When we see someone who is not so well off financially we automatically judge him in our minds as someone who has not done well in life. Perhaps it’s just our conditioning, something that has nothing to do with the “Protestant work ethic” etc. because in every society someone who is financially successful is always looked up to. Personally, I admire people who have worked hard and achieved financial success, as long as they haven’t sacrificed their families along the way – see, even here we use the word “sacrifice” as if success were our god and we sacrifice our families before it. I don’t admire inherited wealth because if you go back far enough you usually learn that most of these families earned their first fortunes in ways that are unworthy – the first fortune is the hard one because after that money just keeps on making money. I know that some of the “first” families here in my city were involved in black market activities after the 2nd world war and their children and grandchildren are now admired and respected. Most of the older people who knew just where they got their money from are now dead so the taint of black marketing had disappeared.

You need to surround yourself with people who think and feel as you do. We all need feedback that what we are doing is right and if you continuously get negative feedback then its easy to start thinking that perhaps they are right and you are wrong. Pray and continue on your road with thanksgiving and joy.

I too like this forum because I learn things and I also read things that make me think..

Effie

[Effie Ganatsios]

Reply to Richard's post no. 186


“Many who came were surprised to find that despite the years of Communism, many people in
Eastern Europe claim to have a Christian heritage via the Eastern Orthodox Church .”

Richard, what you said about the people in the former communist countries doesn’t surprise me. They lived under communism for less than 100 years. The Greeks lived under the Ottomans for nearly 400 years and yet our priests and the people themselves kept our religion alive. They did this with secret night schools for the children and the teachings of their parents at home. There is even a song that children still sing in school – Little bright moon, light my way, so that I can go to school, so that I can learn wondrous things, the things of God.

Many negative things have been said about Greek priests, but one shining example of their godliness is the way they acted under Turkish rule. They created the secret night school system at the risk of their own lives and they rallied the people during our War of Independence. My city was founded by a group of monks about 800 years ago – their monastery St. Demetrios is now my parish church. One of the things people in Kozani are proud of is the fact that a minaret was never erected here – the Turks would start building it during the day and the Greeks would demolish the work during the night.

If the faith of the Russian people is anything like that of the Greek people then I don’t think many people will be converted. The difficulty is that Evangelists are very vocal people and it’s easy to be seduced by their honey-sweet interpretation of what being a Christian is.

[Richard McBride]

Beloved of the Lord, Effie:

I did not make myself clear in reporting that message.

First, I did not say:

"Many who came were surprised to find that despite the years of Communism, many people in Eastern Europe claim to have a Christian heritage via the Eastern Orthodox Church .”
This was the wording of the 'manual' which I was quoting;

and second, my reaction to reading that phrase was to the word, "claim". Used in this fashion, especially in public reports and newspapers, it carries the connotation that it was a mere claim on the part of the Orthodox, that it was therefore subject to interpretation (if not suspicion), which is to say the Orthodox may not be capable of understanding their own convictions. And the presumption is that the proselytizers CAN provide the necessary understanding. Given such interpretations, the door is then thrown open to the proselytizers.

The hordes of evangelical proselytizers which descended upon Russia in the Nineties were a cause of civil disruption in a country which hardly needed outside disrupters. I understand that laws were passed to keep out the "sect" proselytizers, allowing in only those Protestants groups considered to be true religions, not sects.

I may only sympathize with your Greeks, the Serbs, the Russions, Ukrainians, and other Easter Block Orthodox who have survived under great oppressions. We have it handed to us in America. It all comes so easily, that many of our born-Orthodox wonder if they should not take up Protestantism instead -- where the Churches often have bowling allies and better gymnasiums. I think I mentioned in a different thread how the Greeks kept Eastern, or Byzantine, Orthodoxy alive during the Ottoman oppression. That was a great example of the people working under the Spirit of the Paraclete.

But perhaps because Orthodoxy is so easily had in America, I feel nervous about the proselytizers; perhaps it is because I live in the heart of the American Bible Belt, and have seen the unhappy side of believing that once one is "born again", one has a life time membership to the Saved Club. I have seen much more of this than I care to talk about, and in my mind, the 'manual' seems threatening because I have never seen such sophisticated research used to fuel these proselytizing methods. Use the URL I provided to see how sophisticated it is.

I may be wrong to feel this way, but I think anyone who takes it lightly does not know what Orthodx are up against here.

richard mcb

[Fr Averky]

Dear Effie and Richard,

I am far more concerned about the Roman Catholics than I am about Evangelicals. When I was visiting my priest friend in the very small city of Boise, Idaho, I came upon a publication from Moscow, which claimed to be from "The Ruling Mother of God Orthodox Church." As it turns out, it is not Orthodox at all, but is a missionary effort of the Catholic Church. It is written in Russian, of course, but there are several pictures of the clergy, all wearing Roman collars and holding latin crucifixes. Also, there is shown a procession with the "Lady of Fatima" statue. There is also,a photograph of a very strange liturgy or service held outside, and the priest and several worshippers are lifting their hands up at the same time. I have been told recently that there is a group pf Polish or German nuns in Moscow who in poor Russian, invite simple people to their "liturgy." As is well known, the Vatican has established twelved dioceses in Russia, and now, two in Kazakhistan. In Russia, the estimated number of Catholics is about six hundred thousand, so why twelve dioceses? In recent documents found on Vatican City's official site, there is a long article about the "Third Fatima Letter" and its meaning. I have come to believe that the present Pope of Rome has decided that he will take most seriously the supposed adjuration of the virgin to "convert Russia." I can remember that when I was a Catholic teenager, it was explained to us that the Virgin was asking the world to pray that the godless would be overthrown in Russia, and that it would emerge as a free Christian nation again. Now, that notion has changed, and the Pope wants to convert all of Russia. As if Orthodoxy does not have enough problems.

Effie, you are so right; despite nearly eighty years of intense persecution, the Russian Orthodox Church managed to exist. Sadly some of her bishops sold out to the godless authority causing a condition called "Sergianism," which was detrimental to the life of the church, but it is hard to imagine from our place of safety and freedom what we might have done in their most difficult situation. Only now, with access to archives, are we finding out that even the Church carried on covert operations to insure the life of the church during the Communist era. In Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania, the Church managed to serve despite terrible sanctions: In Russia, the Church could not teach, preach, have schools, publish, or defend itself when attacked. Churches were destroyed, turned into movie theaters, dance halls, and sad to say, public toilets. Yet the people, the old grandmothers, preserved the faith, and the church and monastic life did not die. I read about one very old nun who was sentenced to hard labour in the Gulag, because she was caught making prayer ropes! the local judge said that she was guilty of "Anti-State Propaganda!" the Orthodox Church in Russia is struggling back to life, and there are now hundreds of monasteries open, and more will be opened as it becomes possible, six thousand people are studying in theological academies and seminaries, and there are many schools of iconography. New churches are being built, and old ones are being restored. Effie, we have a post card of our cathedral in San Francisco, and on the back it says the "Russian Greek Orthodox Cathedral of the Virgin." Richard, thank you for your latest post - it is very sensitive to the situation, and I appreciate it.

Father Averky

[Demetrios Galanidis]

In reference to the preservation of Orthodoxy in countries dominated by non-Christian or atheistic governments, we must not overlook the very real hero(ines) of the successful continuation of The Church - the faithful mothers and grandmothers in Greece, Russia, the Ukraine, and elsewhere who were a major, if not the major, force in passing Orthodox values and teaching to the next generations. Yes, monks and clerics rightly deserve respect and gratitude for their perilous ministries, but the women in Orthodoxy are due a similar credit.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in theLord Demetrios,

How very right you are! It was the Ya-Ya's and the Babushkas who continued to go to church and maintained the faith during the darkest days. If one looks at pictures of Russia during the communist period, photographs of church services show a multitude of old women, who, defying the godless authorites, passed on the precious heritage of Orthodoxy to their children and grandchildren.
One of our bishops who was born in the Ukraine, told me how, while his parents were afraid of the authorities and did not openly show thier faith, his grand parents kep thier icons in the corner, lit their icon lamps and openly prayed to God. When he was thirteen, a cow stepped on his foot, and he was laid up for several months. It was during this time that his aged grandmother and grandfather started to teach him about Orthodoxy. His gandmother gave him a "Lives of the Saints" by St. Dimitry of Rostov. It was here that he first read about monks. He told me that first, he thought of the Lives as very lovely "fairy tales," but then, he began ardently desire to become a monk and nothing else. It was the women who ran into the churches as they were being destoyed by the godless, saving what icons, relics and holy things they could. It was the women who offered up their tearful prayers for the Motherland, that God would forgive the people for their sins and grant them freedom. It was the women who by their pious example produced so many great saints of the Church throughout the ages.

I can tell you Demetrios, that it was my own dear mother who taught me to love the Mother of God. All of her life she had deep devotion to the Most Pure Mother of God, first as a pious Roman Catholic, and then later as an Orthodox Christian.. When I was a child, we had a "Mary altar" in our home - a small alcove off the main foyer in our large house which had a beautiful staute of the Virgin on a white marble altar with the words "Ave Maria" carved and guilded. Very often, vases of fresh flowers were put near the statue, and we would all pray the rosary together, especially during the month of May. As an Orthodox Christian, she had a very beautiful icon of the Theotokos before which a lamp was always lit. I am so grateful to my mother and to all those heroic women who gave the Faith to so many. Thank you for reminding all of us of the precious treasure we all have in the Mothers of this world.

Father Averky

[Elisabeth]

Dear Father Averky, Demetrios and All,

On the theme of Mothers of the Church, some of you might be interested in a book I read recently called 'The Forgotten Desert Mothers- sayings, lives and stories of early Christian women' by Laura Swan, published by Paulist Press 2001. It contains some stories about families where mothers were influential in the Christian upbringing of the children, and where they founded monasteries in family estates....sometimes their children joining them in the monastery. I found it a very valuable book to read.

Elisabeth

[Fr Averky]

Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for the sufggestion. There are many wonderful saints who were good mothers - St. Monica, mother of Blessed Augustine, St. Juliana of Lazarevo, St. Sophia, who watched her precious daughters martyred in a most terrible fashion, Tsaritsa-martyr Alexandra of Russia and of course, the Mother of Mothers, the most pure Theotokos. I am sure if once could talk to the great men saints of the church, the vast majority of them would tell you that it was their mother who was their great inspiration.

Father Averky

[Owen Jones]

Dear Fr. A.,

Plato argued that a young boy should not be far removed from his mother until age 10. He should not go to school before then, should not be taught to read or write, only learn numbers. If the mother nurturs a son until ten, then, Plato argued, he will know for a fact that he is loved by his mother, and he will be capable of heroic feats throughout life.

Any parallel teaching in the Church that you know of?

[Fr Averky]

Dear Owen.

I do not know of a "teaching" per se, but rather would say from what we have been discussing in regards to saints and their mothers, and mothers in general, Plato's idea certainly would hold true. It is interesting that we are told so little of the place of women in ancient Greek society, but again, their influence on their sons had to be great. The women we do know about in ancient history are not the best examples of motherhood - I have in mind Livia, second wife of Caesar Augustus who was one of the first serial killers I can think of. I remember viewing the BBC series "I Claudius" many years ago, and at the end of each hour, I would be chilled thinking of the evils of that powerful woman!
On the other hand, reading the life of St. Monica when I was a boy was once of my favorite from the lives of Saints. also, I loved reading the lives of St. Cecilia, St. Lucy, and St. Anastasia the Roman. They were virgins, but St. Theodota, remembered the same day as St. Anastasia was a mother of three and was martyred with them for the sake of Christ. All the best.

Father Averky

[Elisabeth]

> [Dear Fr. Averky

Thank you for your message. It led me on to think about St. Elisabeth...the mother of The Forerunner, St. John the Baptist, after whom I am named. I have always been very struck by the Visitation of the Theotokos to her cousin Elizabeth. How these two women shared some time together during the most extraordinary time in all creation. How Christ was recognised by the Forerunner even from the womb, and how this preceded his recognition at Theophany, which is also such a great icon of the Trinity.

I wonder if you have any thoughts about the importance of our names in relation to how they might shape our lives? Some of us were given our names by others, but some adult converts had a say in choosing their name. As a monk, I presume your present name was given to you?

Sometimes on these messages I am totally unfamiliar with people's names. I know that there are quite a few websites about saint's lives, but does anyone know of any websites about the origin of Orthodox names?

Best Wishes for a peaceful Pentecost,

Elisabeth

]

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Elizabeth,

I am in no way an authority on names, nor am I Fr. Averky. Anyone can correct me wherever I'm wrong.

The faith which we live and practice, was birthed in the culture of the Middle East. Most people, if they've been in the Christian faith for any length of time, know that a great deal of importance was placed upon names in that culture. It's apparent that upon those who followed Him, God bestowed a great deal of insight into the human condition. Almighty God named Adam, Abraham named Issac, who named Esau & Jacob,God changed Jacob's name to Israel, who named the Twelve Patriarchs.

As is obviously evident, my given name at birth is James, the equivalent of Jacob (supplanter). And as I don't think God is about to use me to start a new nation, that's still my given name. After I "got saved" during the heighth of the Jesus People movement, I became enamored with the man Moses, of whom it's testified in scripture that God made known His ways unto Moses, His acts unto the sons of Israel. I have ever since wanted that close a relationship with God.

In Orthodoxy I've been told that as concerning names, a saint chooses us, while we think we're the ones doing the choosing. Does the naming change our lives? In so far as we endeavor to walk with, we must choose to either accept or reject the mantle of the saint's name which we bear. In my case I was both chosen by, and chose Moses. Like Moses, Prophet and God-seer of Israel, and Moses of Ethiopa/Moses The Black, anger has been a setback in my life. And so, the advice given through the prophet Micah "...to walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8) is especially a favorite, and pertinent. Now while I'm a husband and father I'm not soon to become a monk or start a monastery; however, again a favorite portion of Holy Scripture describes the life of monks and a desire of my heart; "...In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength."

Much has been said about spiritual fathers, and as Fr. Averky has said God gives a special grace to priests.

As far as our desires to "follow hard after God", it's not so much our names shaping our lives as it is us, who either live up to, or live down to our names.

the unworthy servant

[Loretta]

Alas, the names of Christian saints has crossed my mind not infrequently. After fruitless searching and searching I've found no Saint Loretta listed. Someone once told me there was a Saint Loretta in the Lutheran faith, but I've yet to even find this mentioned anywhere.

My dear mother (whenever she was displeased with my actions) used to remind me when I was a child that she named me Loretta because she had worked with a woman of that name who was exceptionally good and kind.

My middle name being Ann is a comfort...Thank God!

Loretta Ann

[John Kapetan]

Loretta:

Hi. I'm no specialist in the study of names, or one that really gets into geneologies and stuff, but your post caught my eye.

I did some checking into the origins of the name Loretta. As you have probably read before it appears to be derived from Laura. I got the following from a web site that lists derivations of different names.

\i
{"Feminine form of the Late Latin name Laurus, which meant "laurel". In ancient Rome the leaves of laurel trees were used to create victors' garlands. Saint Laura was a 9th-century Spanish martyr, a nun who was thrown into a vat of molten lead by the Moors".}

I guess if Saint Laura was from the 9th century (pre-schism)that would make her an Orthodox saint.

Hope this helped.

In Christ,

John K

[Fr Averky]

Dear Loretta,

I take very well what James Anthony has said. Sadly, some of the modernist jurisdictions tell new converts that there is no need to change their names, because "they will become saints themselves, and then people will be named after them." This makes no sense, because the first part is basically in the realm of fantasy, and if you don't need to be named after a saint now, why would anyone want to be named after you in the future?" Again, this is just "convert madness," as Fr. Seraphim Rose used to say. I had a friend who had spent her whole married life in an "Americanized" Orthodox church, and the priest refused to give her a new name. I told her that I thought "Sophia" would be a wonderful name, and the following Sunday when she went to communion, she told the priest very firmly, "MY name is Sophia." and so it remained until her death.

As James said, it is how we live our lives that gives honor or shame to the saint after whom we have been named. Forgive me, but I have never, and would never give a man the name "Seraphim," for most men I know who have that hame have never even begun to live up to that most holy name. In the Russian tradition, women are never called Mary in honor of the Theotokos - it is just too holy - women take Mary after St. Mary Magdelene, or St. Mary of Egypt. Greeks on the other hand do, and the Greek words are so lofty and beautiful, that they are pleasant to the ears.

Loretta, I am not saying any of these things to make you feel bad - I just am telling you how I have been taught and feel about the matter. Names are important, and in many cases they have an effect on our entire life. I know a young couple who were here visiting about four Summers ago - they were newly married, and were talking to one of our monks about having children. They both wanted a child, but they were still in college, and they feared that they could not afford to have a baby. The monk told them to put their trust in God, and He would provide enough for them to live if it was His will. Having faith, she soon was with child, and her husband recieved an unexpected grant!.. In gratitude, they named their first born son after that monk.

At any rate Loretta, live your life with fear and love of God, love your neighbor and live you life in Christ and God will take care of the rest. If you want, I think you could still choose the name of a saint to have as a heavenly protector - speak to your priest. We had a seminarian, who, when he had been baptized at a monastery was given the name "Prodromos," after St. John the Baptist. Being a Hispanic-American, he simply was not comfortable with the name. He went to the bishop and explained the situation. The bishop asked him what name he wanted, and he said that in this case, he simply wanted to keep his original name, which was Thomas, after the Apostle. The bishop agreed, and the following Sunday when he received communion, the bishop said " The servant of God Thomas receives..." So you see, either like Thomas or Sophia, you do have a say if you wish. Ann is a perfectly good saint's name as you say.

Father Averky

[Elisabeth]

Dear Moses Thank you so much for your reply. With Fr. Averky's message it has helped me to have greater insight in our relationship to our God given names. I need to read the messages through again several times! Elisabeth

[Loretta]

Thank you Father Averky,

I was born and raised in a Roman Catholic family. I am very much grateful that Our Lord has led me to the Byzantine Catholic Church. I thoroughly embrace the Eastern Rite and have never felt I was closer to Our Savior than I do as a member of this Byzantine Church.

I'll always remember the first time our pastor said the words "The handmaid of God, Loretta, receives the precious, most holy, Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, for the remission of her sins and life everlasting. Amen." These words spoken in the presence of Our Lord's most precious body and blood startled my heart. I thought I would burst with joy! For the rest of that day (for days later, and even now when I remember that day) I was profoundly amazed. All I could think was "He said my name. He said my name in the presence of my God." This may seem like a very small event to many, but for my soul it was an awakening that I'll never forget.

As usual Father Averky, thank you for your kind words.

Loretta

[Andonis]

hi all,
had the most amazing experience at my first divine liturgy on Greek soil. it was the Sunday past which co incided with celebration of the feast days of the apostles Paul and Peter and was presided over by the bishop. within ten minutes of being at this beautiful historical byzantine church, i started crying and couldn't stop till the liturgy was over. initially i was extreemly embarrassed, but when i surveyed the room, i wasn't the only one. the liturgy penetrated straight through the heart in a more powerful way than any i have experienced. can't imagine what it will be like when i get to Mount Athos.

Andonis

[Moses Anthony]

This is for he edification of everyone: The first part comes from an Orthodox group which I belong to, and is put there from this address christopher.Haas@villanova.edu The feature is regularly titled "A Word From The Desert"

One of the fathers used to say that some old men were sitting one day and talking of what was useful to the soul. One of them had the gift of vision, and he saw angels who were waving branches in honor of the old men, but when one of them began to speak of irrelevent things the angels withdrew, and some pigs walked amongst the old men bringing a bad smell and messing up everything. As soon as they began once again to speak of what was useful to the soul. the angels returned to do them honor.

In the digest I received today was an article about the recently ordained gay bishop of the Episcopalian Church. You can access the article here at this url reese.king-online.com/Reese 20030813. There's also an article about the Mel Gibson movie. If you only want to read that article just change the last two digits of the url to 20.

I am in His grace,

the unworthy servant

[Moses Anthony]

Postscript to the earlier post:
I should have included the address of the group I mentioned. Their name, Orthodox-Theological Digest, they're found at Orthodox-theo@snet.net.

t.u.s
Moses