Boycotting pro-abortion companies

[Elizabeth]

Dear members:

Some people accuse the Orthodox of being passive. I am not a political activist, nor do I consider myself to be passive as I am active in my church and university, and view prayer life as an active life in Christ.

Should we as Orthodox Christians be boycotting companies that fund abortionists? Should we search to see if a company is moral before we do business with them? I've heard that AT&T and MCI also donate to Planned Parenthood. Is it then moral to have phone service from those companies?

The company mentioned below in the online newsletter is financially supporting the abortion industry. What is the correct Orthodox response?

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/pages/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1260

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Owen Jones]

Dear Elizabeth,

I will see you and raise you. The U.S. Government gives Planned Parenthood $300 million per year. So let's boycott the IRS!

[Photini]

Hello all.

I bore my son at 17 years old. I was a senior in high school and with a mother dying of breast cancer. Having been in this situation, I understand the extreme urgency, depression, and utter falling apart that a young girl goes through. I totally do not support abortions though.

I just always thought, when I would pass by a picket line or some similar thing, how much more useful their energies would be if they would actually try to help those women. I literally tried to kill myself during that time in my life. I attempted to starve myself to death. I was almost successful. The doctor said that had I continued that way, I would have died within a few weeks.

Anyway, my heart goes out to those women who are in crisis situations that cause them to consider abortion. I wish there were some way I could help, but I just don't know how. I just never understood how boycotting helps. Yes, you may hinder the doctor or clinic and show your disapproval, but in what way does this help the women and their unborn babies?

[Elizabeth]

Dearest Photini:

Thank you for bearing your son and giving him the gift of life.

Have you ever read Real Choices by Frederica Matthewes-Green? Frederica talks about women facing abortions and how we can help them. At the university, I have quite a reputation. Young unmarried pregnant girls befriend me and confide in me because they know that I will not condemn them. They know that I am a Christian, that I love them and their unborn babies.

I've never been in a picket line nor a protest march. That was not my question.

My question is the following: When it comes to our dealing in the real world, are we expected to boycott companies that contribute to the abortionists and other immoral endeavors? What is our Christian obligation?

I have been boycotting Disney products for ten years now, ever since their companies came out with some horrible movies on priests, etc. I do try to shop carefully, only buying the things I need from reputable companies.

Lovingly yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Fr Averky]

Dear Elizabeth,

The Church does not endorse activism. We have a priest in our Chuch who blessed the ground for a new church over fourteen years ago. He had worked very hard to get the project going, but then he became interested in anti-abortioin activities. This led to participating in blocking abortioin clinics with groups of like-minded people, which in time included praying with Catholic priests and nuns and pastors of other denominations. Interestingly, when he approached the other Orthodox clergy in his ared to join him, he was told that their bishops did not bless them to engage in such activities.

As we have discussed in several threads on Monachos, it is first most important that we work on our own salvation. It does not do us well to be constantly looking for something new to concern ourselves with. I simply cannot understand why people do not spend more time praying, doing spiritual reading and weeping for their sins. Elizabeth, if you feel that your boycotting of companies that you disapprove of will have that much of an impact in saving lives, help yourself.

A very good post, Photini, you make a lot of sense!

In Christ,
Father Averky

[Justin]

What is the correct Orthodox response?

Do what you can, I think, but don't do too much. That is, if you have a chance to do something good, then do it. Don't get caught up too much in "fighting the world," though. We're probably too weak to be able to discern certain things in such a fight, and as Owen's post demonstrated, fighting the world would require more resources/power than we have. How can we fight off Satan? It's for us to do good if we see it, not to be an activist for this cause or that. I'm not saying you are, of course! just answering your question generally. The more we get caught up in wordly concerns, the more we lose our focus on what's important. The problem isn't trying to do good (to serve), the problem is losing focus on God (the "one thing needful"). With that in mind, I think the proper Orthodox response would be to pray and fast if you are really concerned over the issue; even says canons or stay up at night praying if you must. Just don't let it become a "cause" or "struggle"; such "struggles," if they must be made, are for saints or at least those advanced in the faith, we sinners need to worry about struggling for our own souls.

[Ronald J. Brotzman]

The Heinz catsup company, yes, Senator Kerry of Mass. wife's company, has just funded 50,000,000 for among other thing abortion causes. I personally will not buy that porductline again. It is one way I can feel good about the issue.

[Photini]

I most definitely have issues with handing my money over to someone who I am aware will use it for terrible causes. The problem is that many of these companies also have very good causes.
If I followed this train of thought very strictly, I would find myself having to quit my job in the pharmacy. We sell the "abortion" pill ("Plan B" or "Preven").

[Moses Anthony]

In the city where I used to live, and here in this one as well, there's a crisis pregnancy center where women young and old, can receive help with an unplanned pregnancy. And,if physical help is needed -food, clothing, etc, -that is there as well.

If we look out only for our own salvation and concerns, how then will we be able to fulfill the admonition to rejoice with those who rejoice, bear the burden of those who are weak, or to do good when it is in our power to do it. That is one of the 'hallmarks' of our 'true' religion, to plead for the widow, to help the orphan, clothe the naked, to visit those in prison, to loose the bonds of the yoke. It is painfully obvious that we cannot be involved in every "cause" coming down the street, but we can be involved in the "good works" which are the hallmarks, the good works, of our 'true religion'.

We struggle against that trifecta of evil the world, the flesh, and the devil. As followers of Our Lord Jesus Christ in this we have absolutely no choice. We will either be engaged in spiritual warfare as aggressors, or watching as duped onlooders. It is how each one stayed true to Jesus while fighting the "good fight" of whatever cause, that has led to the Church canonizing saints. Fighting the spiritual fight against the world indeed does take resources and discernment, but then consider as children of God what we have by grace: spiritual armor and weapons(Eph.6:10,11; 2Cor.10:3-5), a love inseparable form its source (Rom. 8). These struggles are for us, for you and me. For again; It's the ordinary people who let God's light shine through them, whom we venerate as saints and beseech to interceed for us. Everything available to Moses, Abraham, David, Josiah, Hezekiah, ________ (insert name), is available to us if we're willing to don the mantle of those worthies. The fact that some are more advanced in the fight than others, only means that they have comfort to share, which means we too will have that same comfort to share.(2Cor.1:3-7)

The one thing which is important is to live as much in the grace of God given to each of us as is possible. However; we cannot be so focused upon the rules that we forget mercy and justice as Jesus chided the Pharisees for doing.(2Peter 1:1-11)

Our faith calls us to let the light in us shine through the good works we're called to do -not all of which we can be involved in - under the authority of whichever jurisdiction, i.e., Metropolitan, Bishop, and Priest God has placed over us.

The correct Orthodox response: Do what God tells you to do, which as varied members of the body, is different for us all.

the unworthy servant

[Donald Wescott]

Fr.A,
Father Bless!

In your post # 349 above, you state that the Church does not endorse activism. The OCA, of which I am a member, is very active in its endorsement of pro-life (read anti-abortion) activities. ( a good thing IMHO)

SCOBA sanctions the Orthodox Peace Fellowship, of which I am a member. Social activism is definetly a component of the organization.

It is also noteworthy that The Russian Orthodox Church recently issued a substantial document entitled, "The Orthodox Church and Society" which outlines the Churchs' position on a wide variety of social issues, and the proper role forth the faithful and clery in them.

http://www.incommunion.org/resources/orthodox_church_and_society.asp
Perhaps you had something else in mind when you made this statement and I am misunderstanding?

His unworthy servant,
Donald Eusebios

[Elizabeth]

Dear forum members:

We each have to examine ourselves to see if we are living a true Christian life to the best of our abilities. Not seeking out evil but avoiding it whenever possible.

I know some doctors who have changed their practice even going so far as to losing hospital privileges because they will not prescribe or dispense psychoactive drugs that cause addictions or permanent brain injury, or birth control pills, implants and IUDs which have been proven to be abortifacients.

These doctors have had to suffer abuse from their fellow doctors, loss of salary, loss of job, loss of home, loss of fringe benefits from the drug companies, and ridicule from their wives and children.

These are our true saints today. Like St. Luke, they live the gospel. They are not monks, for sure, but they can achieve sanctity in this world by denying themselves, loving their patients, and following Christ.

A doctor who truly loves his patient will say "no" to patients who want birth control pills or IUDs as an easy fix for unwanted pregnancies. These courageous physicians will tell their patients about the harmful side effects and the estimated number of unseen annual abortions they can expect to suffer in a year. Patients often are in denial and don't want to know the truth. They think ignorance is better than bliss, but the doctors know the truth. Let us pray for them.

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[Fr Averky]

Dear Eusebios,

The very best answer I could give you would be to direct you to Justin Kissel's excellent post #197 on this thread.

I usually answer from my own experience, or as I have said numerous times, from what I have been taught. Activism in Orthodoxy would have to be rather recent, and I cannot say that much is being gained by having "Ecology Cruises," or making statements on social isssues.

However, dear Eusebios, if it is being done, I will not argue against it, or even discuss it, for I have no idea what these activities of SCOBA entail, and I do not think it wise to discuss something I know nothing about. Thank you for the information. I will look at the link you have provided. Do you know how many SCOBA bishops have stood in protest before abortion clinics? Or marched against the then upcoming war in Iraq? I am saying this because while I am very opposed to abortion, I would never involve myself in a public action, not as a priestmonk, and not as an individual. To clarify, this is what I would mean by "activism.," being involved in public protests against something.

For years, the Moscow Patriarchate involved itself in all kinds of "International Peace Fellowship" conferences, which was an opportunity for prominent hierarchs of that Church, such as the present Patriarch Alexei II, when he was Metropolitan of Talin and Estonia, to attack the "Imperialism" of the United States. A former seminarian here worked for the Department of External Affairs of the Moscow Patriarchate (at that time, an active arm of the KGB), organizing "International Youth Peace Rallies," which gave him the possibility of carrying classified information to various European capitols and bringing back the same. Yes, there is indeed great value to be had in participating in important "social issues," especially for the KGB.

As to not eating Heinz ketchup, Ronald, please, each person has the right to express himself as he pleases. It has always been part of my personality not to involve myself in issues. Forgive me, I rarely use ketchup, and I have no idea what brand I am using., but I see your point.

With Respect,

hieromonk Averky

[Margaret Lark]

Let me put it this way: If the Church officially endorses anti-war rallies, what happens? It loses that part of its membership that serves in the military. Can we afford to write these people off? Are their souls less worthy of being saved than those of the pacifists? In that case, why was it that of all the people He met while He was on this earth, Christ gave the highest praise to the faith of a soldier?

Suppose the Church takes an official, activist stand against all forms of racism. What happens? Next thing you know, and I speak from experience, you start getting sermons about "racist cops" and "racial profiling in law enforcement," and there goes that part of its membership. So apparently it's all right to engage in stereotyping cops, but not criminals? The soul of a criminal is "worth more" than the soul of a cop? That's the message in the law-enforcement community.

And just because the politicians have appropriated abortion as a political issue, does not make it one. It's been against the sixth Commandment for rather awhile, now.

My point? You walk your Christian walk in accordance with the life God gave you, under the guidance of your priest. Anything else veers dangerously close to being judgemental.

[Donald Wescott]

Fr. A.,
Father Bless!

Yes, I agree that Justin's post says quite a lot, and it makes a good deal of sense. I am constantly reminded, as I visit the numerous monastic communities in N.E. Ohio that it is in fact the faithful prayer of monastics, clergy and the faithful that keeps our world from flying apart at the seams.

This certainly ought to be our focus as Orthodox Christians.

In response to your question, His Beatitude Metrpolitan Herman of the OCA does take part in the annual "March for Life" in Washington D.C. I do not know whether any Heirarchs actually marched in anti-war protests, but a good number of them, along with other of the clergy and Holy Angelic ranks did sign the Orthodox Peace Fellowship's appeal for peace issued just prior to the start of the war with Iraq. Perhaps that doesn't meet the definition of social activism.

I attended my first meeting of the NE Ohio chapter of the OPF tonight. One of the regular members is an Orthodox laymen named Joe May, who runs the Matthew 25 house ( a house of hospitality) in Akron, Ohio. Joe winces at the phrase"Social Activism" He believes, and I must say that I am persuaded, that we must "love our neighbor", much the way St. Herman loved the indigenous Alaskan peoples. It was, I'm convinced this love for neighbor that caused the great Saint to speak out against the oppressive treatment of the Native peoples at the hands of the Russian fur trading companies.

As always, thank you for your insight and wisdom. I would covet your holy prayers, and will keep you in my humble ones.

His unworthy servant,
Donald Eusebios

[M.C. Steenberg]

Reading over the messages in this thread, I was reminded of a quotation from the work of the late Philip Sherrard:<blockquote>&#39;In other words, there can be no cure for our present situation until our lives, public and private, are once again established on a religious basis, something which can come only when we live according to the norms of sacred tradition. This in its turn presupposes two other conditions. First, that we possess a sacred tradition according to whose norms we, should we choose to do so, are able to live; and second, that this tradition affirms these norms in a manner consistent with the revelation to which its task is to bear witness and implement in such a way that this revelation is an ever-present reality for each succeeding generation. This means that the tradition in question must not lose its essential initiatory character, or allow it to be overlaid and compromised by disproportionate concern with secondary and contingent matters, for should it do this it will cease to operate as the transfiguring power of every aspect of human and other life. It will, in other words, betray its essential function as well as the revelation from which it derives&#39; &#40;From Philip Sherrard, Christianity: Lineaments of a Sacred Tradition, 24-5&#41;.</blockquote>What strikes me as particularly important are Philip&#39;s emphases on what is essential in the living tradition of the Church; and his use of the term &#39;disproportionate&#39; as a qualifier on the type of concern with other affairs for which the Church should be on her guard.

[Owen Jones]

But the Church HAS ALREADY lost its essential initiatory character. Sherard&#39;s quote is really a conceit &#40;in the literary sense&#41;.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear Owen,

You wrote:


But the Church HAS ALREADY lost its essential initiatory character. Sherard's quote is really a conceit (in the literary sense).

You are speaking globally, dear Owen. http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif What you say is true in many cases, in a profoundly, saddeningly expansive way. But it is not always and everywhere so.

This is at the very heart of what sacred tradition means when it says that the Church is never left desolate in the world.

[Owen Jones]

I don&#39;t want to sound like a total cynic, Matthew. Which is one reason why I like this particular discussion group -- it focuses on monasticism and askesis, which is evidence in and of itself of a resurgent interest in the &#34;essential initiatory&#34; etc....

You can&#39;t just walk into a monastery as if it were a done deal. It&#39;s a life-long initiation, as it were.

By the way, the absolute best Orthodox talk/sermon i ever heard was by a monk from Vatopedi.

[Fr Averky]

Dear E. Hanson,

Arre you &#34;Desert Aspirant?&#34;

Father A.

[Elizabeth]

Dear Father A.

Please forgive me a sinner. I doubt Desert Aspirant will be coming back.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Eusebios,

I am a little Confused, is Eusebios your last name? I want to address you properly and respectfully. I would rather think that St. Herman&#39;s concern for the Indians was not the same as an Orthodox hierarch marching at an anti-abortion rally, and I do not think that he would now.

When I was in grade school I was taught by a very strict French congregation of sisters, the Sisters of the Holy Cross, who at the end of the last century founded and maintained four universities and one thousand primary schools. When I was a teenager, my parochial high school was taught by fourteen sisters of seven different congregations, plus a number of diocesan priests. One group was called the Sisters of Charitiy of the Blessed Virgin Mary, know simply as the &#34;B.V.M.s&#34; Both of these congregations had outstanding teachers, and a goodly number of these wonderful and dedicated women had higher degrees.

Since Vatican II, both congregations have lost vast numbers of sisters and now both of them give in their respective&#34;:Mission Statements&#34; the fact that they are heavily involved in &#34;Issuses of Social Justice.&#34;

I am sorry, but no one will ever convince me that the Church is gaining souls by involving herself in such activities. And I do not believe that society as a whole is served by people becoming passionately involved against any social &#34;evil,&#34; because it begins to color their entire outlook on others, especially those they are pitted against.

It is not that far a step from chaining yourself to a gate in front of a government installation to shooting a doctor who performs abortions, or to quietly, as a small monastery was asked to help, to print a booklet which has instructions on how to make bombs to be used to put in front of abortion clinics. What seems to be for social &#34;good&#34; can quickly become its own source of very real evil. When a doctor in upstate New York was brutally murdered a few years ago, when captured, his murderer, who shot him in the heart, said, &#34;I was only trying to frighten him &#40;!&#41;&#34;

I remember several years ago when a nun was asked to do a massive mural on or near a new structure in the Boston area. To the chagrin of those who had commissioned the mural, she painted an enourmous stylized picture of Ho Chi-Minh! This was to me, very wrong, because she was giving her own personal &#34;statement&#34; of her opposition to the recently concluded Vietnam war, and it was her way to honor a Communist &#34;Hero.&#34; I felt that her work had nothing to do with the Catholic Church, or her vocation as a nun, but was an inapropriate and strident indication of of being against our government and it policies. this is comparable to Maryknoll missionaries and other becoming left-wing terrorists against governments in South America. While it true that many of those governments are and have been very oppressive, it is not the place of the Church or its religious orders to encourage the overthrow of the local governemnt by violence. I always marvel at those who would attempt ot paint Jesus Christ as a &#34;rebel,&#34; or as a &#34;revolutionary.&#34;

I personally think that the concept and nomenclature of social activities does not equate with the Church&#39;s reason for existence, which is bringing man to salvation, not improvng social conditions through protest, statements, or otherwise. I say &#34;personally,&#34; because I am not attempting to speak for the Church, yet I want to think that that is more her mind than more liberal persons might want to attribute to her.

In the very fine book on the Holy Mountain by the revered Constantine Cavarnos, there is a statemnt by one of the holy elders of the mountain who makes the satement that the Church, and especially monastics, does not involve itself with philanthropy. Archbishop Averky, in his excellent book on liturgics also warns the parish priest not to involve himself in pilantrophy which is inspired by the falsity of so-called &#34;Universal Love.&#34; These activities are worldly-minded, and are lacking in a true and solid spiritual foundation. I think I might have mentioned in an earlier post that I personally find it very vexing that some Orthodox Churches, for whatever reason, involve themselves in activities in a sad form of &#34;Me-too,&#34; as if somehow they would be socially &#34;inferior&#34; if they did not. It was that feeling of inferiroity which inspired Orthodox Christians in the early years of the last century to install organs and pews in their churches, lest they be thought &#34;weird&#34; by their middle-class Protestant and Catholic neighbors.

I further feel that those of us who have not been Orthodox for all that long ought not take it upon thenselves to introduce &#34;new teachings,&#34; even in the form of a &#34;question,&#34; for this has been firmly warned against by Christ Himself and the Apostle Paul. For those of us who have been grafted to the True Vine, we can study to the very end of our days, and we will never make much headway in the knowing the vast treasure of which Orthodoxy is possessed. Let us humbly submit ourselves and be fed by the Fathers. I highly suggest a book that I am reading, &#34;The Mind of the Orthodx Church,&#34; by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlahos. I have all I can to to resist my own passions and sins, without involving myself in boycotts and demonstrations.

Again, I am speaking for myself here, but I personally will have no part of such things. I may disagree with you, and even some of your bishops, but I hold you personally in esteem, and assure you of my poor weak prayers for you and all those for whom you care

With love and respect

Unworthy hieromonk Averky

[Elizabeth]

Dear fellow forum members:

I find the teachings of The Didache are very appropriate teachings for today. We are asked to fast and pray for our enemies, and not to complain:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-hoole.html

THE DIDACHE, or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles,
Translated by Charles H. Hoole

CHAPTER 1

1:1 There are two paths, one of life and one of death, and the difference is great between the two paths.
1:2 Now the path of life is this -- first, thou shalt love the God who made thee, thy neighbour as thyself, and all things that thou wouldest not should be done unto thee, do not thou unto another.
1:3 And the doctrine of these maxims is as follows. Bless them that curse you, and pray for your enemies. Fast on behalf of those that persecute you; for what thank is there if ye love them that love you? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? But do ye love them that hate you, and ye will not have an enemy.
1:4 Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If any one give thee a blow on thy right cheek, turn unto him the other also, and thou shalt be perfect; if any one compel thee to go a mile, go with him two; if a man take away thy cloak, give him thy coat also; if a man take from thee what is thine, ask not for it again, for neither art thou able to do so.
1:5 Give to every one that asketh of thee, and ask not again; for the Father wishes that from his own gifts there should be given to all. Blessed is he who giveth according to the commandment, for he is free from guilt; but woe unto him that receiveth. For if a man receive being in need, he shall be free from guilt; but he who receiveth when not in need, shall pay a penalty as to why he received and for what purpose; and when he is in tribulation he shall be examined concerning the things that he has done, and shall not depart thence until he has paid the last farthing.
1:6 For of a truth it has been said on these matters, let thy almsgiving abide in thy hands until thou knowest to whom thou hast given.

CHAPTER 2

2:1 But the second commandment of the teaching is this.
2:2 Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt youth; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use soothsaying; thou shalt not practise sorcery; thou shalt not kill a child by abortion, neither shalt thou slay it when born; thou shalt not covet the goods of thy neighbour;
2:3 thou shalt not commit perjury; thou shalt not bear false witness; thou shalt not speak evil; thou shalt not bear malice;
2:4 thou shalt not be double-minded or double-tongued, for to be double tongued is the snare of death.
2:5 Thy speech shall not be false or empty, but concerned with action.
2:6 Thou shalt not be covetous, or rapacious, or hypocritical, or malicious, or proud; thou shalt not take up an evil design against thy neighbour;
2:7 thou shalt not hate any man, but some thou shalt confute, concerning some thou shalt pray, and some thou shalt love beyond thine own soul.
...

3:6 My child, be not a murmurer, since it leadeth unto blasphemy; be not self-willed or evil-minded, for from all these things blasphemies are produced;
3:7 but be thou meek, for the meek shall inherit the earth;
3:8 be thou longsuffering, and compassionate, and harmless, and peaceable, and good, and fearing alway the words that thou hast heard.
3:9 Thou shalt not exalt thyself, neither shalt thou put boldness into thy soul. Thy soul shall not be joined unto the lofty, but thou shalt walk with the just and humble.
3:10 Accept the things that happen to thee as good, knowing that without God nothing happens....

&#40;Message edited by chanterhanson on 11 August, 2003&#41;

[Elizabeth]

To: My dear fellow forum members

Please forgive me for not defining the word boycott. I didn&#39;t mean a public demonstration or civil disobedience. These are not appropriate behaviors of the followers of Christ. As Orthodox Christians we are to be sober -- demonstrations are far from sober. I agree with you, Father A.

I was trying to advocate quietly not buying the products or services which a particular company manufactures or sells. Or perhaps writing a letter if one can do so in a spirit of charity. If not, it&#39;s better to pray in silence for their salvation.

Please forgive me for any confusion I caused.

Mrs. Hanson

[Fr Averky]

Dear Elizabeth,

I might be the one at fault for my reaction-forgive me-I am a little touchy, or more honestly, very touchy about the Church&#39;s role in the modern world. I hope that Owen will not be offencded if I speak for him when I say that both of us have seen and been victims of churches who desired to be &#34;relevant&#34; in the times they found themselves. Of course, as time has gone on, and each generation has its own new and yet very old &#34;issues.&#34; When church leadership feels that it must keep up with the times, nothing but an evil wind comes forth from official deliberations. The bar keeps getting lowered, until there are no barriers left. I had one church die under me, and I would not want to see Orthodoxy, so very precious to me, even be seriously threatened by such ideas.

Therefore, dear Elizabeth, I take the blame for any confusion or unpleasantness-yet I remain firm in my position.

Love in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Margaret Lark]

Father, bless! Your mention of your experiences with the Sisters of the Holy Cross brought to mind that recently, my own French nuns, the Daughters of Wisdom, tracked down my address and have begun sending me newsletters. When I went to school at Our Lady of Wisdom Academy, I received a rigorous and excellent education from women who were semi-cloistered. Their chief focus in life was the Rule of their convent, followed by education or nursing, whichever field they happened to be in.

The latest newsletter from these women mentioned &#40;a&#41; the anti-war activities they had been involved in, and &#40;b&#41; their celebration of the 300th anniversary of the founding of the Congregation, including &#34;liturgical dancing.&#34; Not a habit to be seen among any of them. You know what hurts most? This Congregation saw hundreds of young women guillotined during the French Revolution, merely because they &#42;were&#42; nuns. I find myself wondering if their modernist faith would see them through that extreme today -- well, maybe, if they were being martyred for their support of Communist causes. But if it were the Communists doing the martyring?? Who knows.

In another post, you mention having seen &#34;one Church die on you.&#34; I can only say to those who were never part of the RCC pre-Vatican-II: &#34;Death&#34; is not too extreme a description. That Church is today unrecognizable to those of us who grew up in that atmosphere. As my husband says, &#34;I didn&#39;t leave the Church -- the Church left me.&#34; I see the death of Catholicism as having left spiritual wounds so severe that they can &#42;only&#42; be healed in the Orthodox Church, in an atmosphere completely free of the currents and politics of modernism.

One final consideration &#40;I think&#41; on the subject of social activism: If a Church espouses one side of a conflict, the other side automatically feels excluded, and leaves. But those souls are just as dear to Christ. He paid for them, too. Is the solution to beat them over the head with their &#34;wrongness,&#34; so that in the end they cry &#34;Uncle!&#34; and cave in just to stop the beating? Isn&#39;t it better just to provide them with a politics-free atmosphere in which to worship, and a spiritual father to forge a relationship with them that &#42;over time&#42; will get them to modify their ways?

[Moses Anthony]

Father Bless;
Dear Fr. A, E. Hanson,

I heard a Protestant evangelist say once that(quoting loosely), "...a preacher will preach hundreds of sermons, but have only one message."

As you say Fr., you're deeply concerned about the role of the Church in the world, which helps to understand a lot of your posts. Myself; I'm concerned about the level of piety exhibited by individual Christians. I lean heavily towards revival being absent because the people of God have not taken seriously the admonition of 2Chron. 7:14 (And yes, I do take into account God's timing)

V. Rev. Fr. Michael Kaiser told our Mission, do the services right, and the people will come. A thought similar to that found in a movie, "You build it they will come." To do the services right, in my way of thinking, means first that the lives of those involved must be moving towards God.

In their Religion Section a couple of months ago the Dallas Morning News ran an article about how Churches were changing with the times, in order to meet the needs of today's society. As I read the article; I couldn't help but inwardly chuckle, as I thought of how Orthodoxy has stayed the same!

Lot made an horrendous choice when he looked o the plains of Sodom, and saw that they were well watered. But, how revealing is the Scriptures to us when the angelic visitors went to his home. The wretches haranged him for condemning their lifestyles, which I doubt he did by parading through the streets with a megaphone (shophar?). In speaking of Lot the Scriptures say, "...that righteous mans soul was afflicted."

If we begin to let boycotts be our voice in the arena of protest, consider: The convenience (ha!) store where ou buy gas, does it sell alcohol, tobacco, or pornography? The retail outlet where you purchase clothing, do they promote and sell immodest clothing? Ad nauseum!

The majority of companies in the U.S.A are owned by a few conglomerates, whose name you would have to know in order to effectively boycott their products. (A very well known family enter-tainment company makes some of the most R rated movies ever produced). Heaven forbid if you're a sports fan! A christian would likely starve, or just go plain crazy.

So how are we to actively protest aborton, drunkeness, lewdness, homosexuality, murder, robbery, etc., etc. We do it the way Lot did, for by his manner of life he condemned the Sodomites. If someone is to ask me; as the Scrioptures say, I'm to be prepared to give an answer for the faith that is in me. Otherwise, the evangelism people get from me is caught rather than taught.

As always there's a balance to be struck between piety and good works,(a statement which is in itself, the same thing), and thereby glorify the Father in heaven.

the unworthy servant

[Fr Averky]

Dear In Christ
Margaret and James,

I thank both of you for understanding my intentions in my posts. I have gathered some excellent information which I will post tomorrow.

I wish that I were more virtuous, but it has been my strength and great weakness to speak my mind. No one has ever accused me of saying one thiong and meaning another. James, I love Christ, and His Church, which He lovingly left for us in order that we might receive His precious Body and His most pure Blood and that we might have the possibility of walking through the door of heaven, which had been closed to mankind for so long.

Again, making bold to use Owen&#39;s name, along with that of Margaret and her husband, we all suffer deep wounds as Margaret states, from the trauma we suffered because of Vatican. We helplessly witnessed all of those services and ddevotions which we loved not only stopped, but mocked and belittled. For us, what been the &#34;truth&#34; of our Church, suddenly became mutable. Everything we had held dear was gone, and we have seen how the &#34;faith of our fathers&#34; has been in a terrible downward spiral for the last forty years. It was if some powerful evil within the Chuirch had planned, and then executed a direct hit on the life of the Church, pushing her into being part of the world, joining in on the problems of mankind, rather than being the solid rock upon which people could rely- The Church no longer made man transcendent, but itself descended to the pedestrian level in its foolish desire to be relevant.

Anyone not in his mid to late fifties would not understand how deeply this effected our lives, except those who having been born at the same time witnessed the collapse of American society as we had known it. Within a few years of the end of Vatican II, the war in Vietnam caused a huge gap bewtween the people and the government of the U.S. and it was at this time that the &#34;Free Speech&#34; movement was born on the campus in Berkely, Hiipies filled the streets of the Haight-Ashbury district of S, and civil disobedience rose shocjingly. Thus for us living at that time, our entire world-religiously, socially, politically, and culturaly, all collapsed with a span of about ten years. As we know, thousands of young men, unwilling to fight a war they considered unjust, came home and were accosted by people who angrily shouted at them &#34;How many babies did you kill?&#34; They too remain deeply traumatized-and think how many of those boys were Catholic, who saw all that they held dear become some sort of a bizzare and sureal dream, or better yet, nightmare.

When I see important Orthodox hierarchs involving themselves in ecological issues, going to an Arab nation with perhaps a tiny Christian minority and publicy stating that he is against proselytism, when a local Church in the U.S. grants an &#34;economia&#34; for its faithful to eat turkey on the Friday after Thanksgiving &#40; when perhaps the Christmas Lent has already begun&#41;, when Orthodox clergy openly participate in weddings and other joint services, when an Orthodox priest tells me that he regularly gives communion to a group of Catholic nuns, I get frightened. I do not want our Church to be faced with any of the tragicreforms&#34; which Rome enacted.

Now and again, I will drive by a RC church which proudly has a banner which proclaims &#34;Renewal.&#34; The RC Church finds herself in a constant &#34;renewal,&#34; which shows that to this day they know that they did not get things quite right two decades ago, so they have to renew their feeble efforts. Dear James, I would not chuckle too much-the Orthodox church, especially in America, faces dangerous threats to her integrity. Fortunately, we do not have a papacy, to force &#34;reforms&#34; on us in such a wholesale manner.

In Rumania, the Patriarchate of the Rumanian Orthpodox Church is assembly a list of those martyred during the Communist yoke. Interestingly, while the number of Roman Catholis and Protestants is quite small, there are more Roman Catholics listed than Orthodox. Also, some where in the Balkans, an Orthodox parish is buidling a church which will have murals depicting non-Orthdox &#34;saints&#34; The priest told reporters that he wants to have an Orthodox church which will be for &#34;all people.&#34;

Again James and Margaret, thank you. It is more important to me that people understand what I am saying, than it is that they agree with me-I would say that this is the case for all of us.

With love in the Lord,

Fr. A.

[Donald Wescott]

Fr.A,
Father Bless!

Fiest off, Eusebios is my Saints name (St. Eusebios of Samosata)

I do appreciate the points you make with regard to the involvement of the Church in political affairs, I too have my reservations about such things.

I also realize more and more all the time, that Orthodoxy is indeed a vast ocean of which I can take in a teaspoonful at a time.

My first parish priest (now retired) often told me that whatever I had learned to be good and holy and true in my "former delusion" remained good and holy and true. What I realize now is that many of the things that I thouht were good and holy and true, weren't neceassarily!

So, while I may be in some degree of disagreement with your views on this issue, I may end up being persuaded that you are correct, and am open to the same.

On the issue of abortion however, it seems that it is inexcuseable to remain silent, as it was for the Church's inaction in the Nazi Holocaust and the relative silence of the west in the case of the Bolshievek persecution of the Church in Russia and throuhout the rest of Eastern Europe.

Thank you so much for your well reasoned rsponse, I covet your prayers, please be assured of mine for you.

His unworthy servant,
Donald Eusebios

[Fr Averky]

Dear Eusebios,

If you do not mind, I will address you by your saint&#39;s name, for I prefer to deal with the &#34;New Man&#34; born in Christ, not the &#34;old man&#34; of your former life. When I was baptized in 1969, one of my first acts as a newly-illumioned Orthodox Christian was tell my boss, my co-workers, and all my friends and relatives that from that day on I would only answer to the namd &#34;Nicholas.&#34; It took a few weeks, but then every one became accustomed to it, and I used it until my tonsure to rassophore in 1979. I have absolutely no use for the idea of converts being told to &#34;Just keep your own name, because you will be a saint when you die, and people will be named after you!&#34; There is slim hope for this of course, but it basically is again compromising the life of the Church in order not to appear to be weird to those in the world. Frankly, who cares, and many people are intrigued as to why a grown person would change their name, and that in itself is an opportunity for missionary endeavors. How many missionary opportunities have been lost because of the fear of not wanting to be &#34;different&#34; by belonging to some &#34;strange religion.&#34; We should witness for our Lord, not hide Him in shame. I find it so strange to think that people are only using their new name in Christ only when they recive Holy Communion-to me it has a tinge of denial to it, and it makes me uncomfortable.

I well remember how the kind women who taught me had names like Sister Peter Claver, or Sister Joseph Marie; then in 1967 at a party I met a young nun wearing a cocktail dress and fine jewelry who told me &#34;I am Sister Mary Consuela,&#34; but you can call me &#34;Conchita.&#34; I could hardly bring myself to speak to her for the rest of the evening.

As you are beginning to see, nothing in Orthodoxy is ever black and white, and there are thousands of &#34;grays,&#34; of theological, cultural, linguistic, and ethnic nuances which we converts, Americans especially will never fully grasp. Not knowing what it is to be simply a Frenchman or an Italian, or a German, we cannot think in terms of our set ethnic and cultural background, for we are everyone and anyone. I will post some very information-it is not short in length, but then my posts never are.

I am in full agreement with you when you speak of the sinfulness of remaining silent in the face of human rights violations. At the same tme, I find that there are proper channels to approach such problems which do not need public protests, which only in some cases are all that effective. For instance, when riots broke out in Seattle when the world&#39;s financial leaders met there, l they accomplished only the tarnishing of the reputation of a very lovely city. That citizens would run out into the street, turn over a police car, and then set it on fire, certainly did nothing to raise the living standards of the world&#39;s poorest nations.

Yet, on the other hand, when Sir Anthony Eden and President Franlin D. Roosevelt begged Pope Pius XII to speak out against the merciless slaughter of the Jews under Nazi Germany during his annual Christmas message, &#34;Urbi et Orbi,&#34; he curiously remained silent, which even if he did so out because of pressures that we will never know, in the end it was to his detriment in history. When the present pope wished to beatify him, there was such an outcry by not only Jews, but many others, his cause had to be shelved. If the Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate would have been more martyric in their desire to preserve the internal freedom of the Church, then perhaps the situation of the Russian Orthodox Church might have been more akin to that in Poland, in which the churches and seminaries remained open and full. We will never know why these men of power did remained silent-perhaps they did say something after all, and we will never fully understand the agony of that silence.

Eusebios, I put my tust and my hope in God, and our greatest strength and our greatest weapon against all the evils of the world is prayer. Prayer is oxygen for the soul and if we do not breath its purity, our soul will be dead long before our bodies. During the worst hours of my terrible illnesses of the last few years, it was prayer and putting all my confidence in God that saw me through. A billion people can flow into all the streets of the major cities of the world, and if that which they desire is not according to God&#39;s will it will never happen. People can stop buying a product until the company which makes it goes bankrupt, but another company larger and with better technology and a better marketing plan will produce a similar or even more improved product. It will make this new product with larger numbers of very poor workers at any even lower pay scale. Thus the protests and boycotting will have made it worse, not better for thousands of people.

All too easily we modern people, taught by our societ to achieve, to win, to be first, to seek the best &#40; which we richly deserve&#41;, to be the best-looking, forget a few words our Lord said so very long ago, &#34;Without Me, you can do nothing.&#34;

When we begin to learn. dear Eusebios, that truly we can do nothing without our Christ&#39;s love and His Father&#39;s mercy, and the guidance and action of the Holy Spirit, we will face failure time and time again until we do-in every aspect of our lives.

How many times has a situation risen in our lives that seemed hopeless, and yet in the end, a real miracle took place, and just the right of money was made available, we got that job, or did not lose our job, or our daughter did not marry the Goth with black eye shadow, nose rings and several body piercings. And all of it was the will of God, not ours. If I have learned anything in my life as a monastic and more importantly, just as a Christian, there is no peace to be had like the peace which enters the heart and soul of a person who finally has &#34;given in &#34; to God&#39;s will. Be assured of my heart felt prayers for you and yours.

In our Saviour,

Least of all monks

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear James,

What do you mean by &#34;revival?&#34; I do not understand that word put into an Orthodox context-please help me to understand.

Also, I do not quite understand what you mean by &#34;the level of piety exhibited by individual Christians?&#34; I can see what you are saying when I read that into your question concerning what preparatory prayers are being said by people in various jurisdictions. I see that one can wonder how we can have much real unity of prayer and of be of one mind in the Church when people in each Orthodox church in this country seems to have a different approach to spiritual disciplines. Of course, I have wondered about this myself, but as I told you earlier, I am bound by the boundaries of my own Church, and cannot judge the actions of others. I believe, as I think you do, that if we had more unity and conformity in our approach to the spiritual life, the many issues which keep us apart wpuld be more easy to deal with. For now, dear James, all we little people can do is pray for our bishops, that God will bring them to see that their flocks hunger and thirst for spiritual instruction and order. I must say, much has improved from what it was forty years ago in this country, but let us hope and pray that God will give all of us the grace to &#34;fight the good fight,&#34; and together-what a spiritual force the Orthodox Church could be if there was one Orthodox heart and mind! But the devil does not want that, and he fights day and night to stop &#34;the good estate of churches and the unity of all.&#34;

Yours in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

The paragraph which starts &#34;When we begin to learn...&#34; should read, &#34;Until we begin to learn...&#34;

[Margaret Lark]

I have been meaning to note that I often wondered, over the years, where this notion came from that it was all right to break the law, and even acceptable. Then I began to work for one of those educational-assessment firms, you know, the ones that prepare batteries of tests for schoolchildren to see if they are meeting the state&#39;s minimum standards for education. &#40;The standards are pretty minimal. And no, they aren&#39;t meeting them.&#41; Many of the middle- and high-school pupils would make reference to the &#34;Letter from Birmingham County Jail&#34; written by Martin Luther King, Jr, in which he justified his civil disobedience by referencing a quote from Thomas Aquinas: &#34;An unjust law is no law at all,&#34; therefore it was all right to break such a law.

Now, &#42;who&#42; decides whether the law is unjust??? As the product of a long, long line of NYC police officers, I&#39;ve been uncomfortable with this frame of mind ever since it surfaced. Then I found that the Orthodox Church stresses the importance of &#42;keeping&#42; the law, while working to change unjust laws. How much more reasonable and civic-minded! No endangering lives, no threatening livelihoods -- and Father, when the police cars were overturned in Seattle, that was nothing new, they did that in NYC during the &#39;60s, as well as throwing rocks and firebombs at firemen when they&#39;d respond to a call -- but acknowledging a responsibility to those in our society who &#42;need&#42; help.

So, question: We all believe in caring for the homeless. What if the homeless guy on your block is a Vietnam veteran, whose mind got so scrambled by his experiences that he&#39;s incapable of living anywhere but on the street? Does justice and compassion extend to him? If so, then why were people throwing things at him when he was in uniform, during the war? And if not, why not? Do we practice &#34;selective justice&#34;? The Roman church seems to -- Vietnam veterans were routinely excoriated from the pulpit, and that continues today with the current conflict. &#40;But they&#39;ll happily take the contribution from my husband, who works for the Dept. of Defense....&#41;

I&#39;m beginning to feel un-Orthodox in what I&#39;m saying, and very judgemental, so I have a question for Father: Everything I&#39;ve said above comes out of my personal experience. The politics of the Catholic Church is one reason I&#39;m no longer Catholic. At what point am I being judgemental? Maybe better phrased, is it judgemental to recognize the dichotomy between caring for the homeless and vilifying the homeless veteran?

[Margaret Lark]

Father Averky wrote, &#34;When I see important Orthodox hierarchs involving themselves in ecological issues, going to an Arab nation with perhaps a tiny Christian minority and publicy stating that he is against proselytism, when a local Church in the U.S. grants an &#34;economia&#34; for its faithful to eat turkey on the Friday after Thanksgiving &#40; when perhaps the Christmas Lent has already begun&#41;, when Orthodox clergy openly participate in weddings and other joint services, when an Orthodox priest tells me that he regularly gives communion to a group of Catholic nuns, I get frightened. I do not want our Church to be faced with any of the tragic reforms&#34; which Rome enacted.&#34;

Thought you might be interested to know, Father, that what pushed me from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese into ROCOR was a photo in our local newspaper, of the local rabbi preaching a sermon in the Greek Orthodox parish nearby, at a commemoration of Martin Luther King Day, while standing in front of an icon of the Annunciation. Our transfer means that instead of driving six miles to church, we now drive 65 &#40;10 km vs. about 90 km for you folks in the U.K.&#41;; but my husband floored me yesterday by saying, &#34;The best part of this past weekend was church,&#34; and he&#39;s not Orthodox. Yet.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Margaret,

Let us let your question to me be directed to the other members of our forum, for that is what our community is. If you want a direct and personal answer to a question, you are free to contact me through a private message by double clicking on &#34;Father A..&#34; in the left hand column and following the instructions

There are many good minds and well-educated members of our forum, so make good use of Monachos as a discussion group. I can only give my response from my somewhat limited perspective, and have learned much by seeing the perspective opened to me by others.

I do not mean this to sound like am chastizing you, but I want you to be able to fully share in the wealth of knowledge of people whom I myself truly admire.

Yours in the Lord

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Maragaret,

I have asked myself the same questions that you have posed in your post No. 14, and again it is indicative of the effect of that confusion which our generatrion thas suffered the last forty years. There are so many paradoxes in regards to behaviour, social mores, and juridical outlook. The Vietnam war veteran is the perfect example, for while his behaviour is uaceptable to society, at the same time he has to be regarded with compassion and mercy. However, jurisprudence would have us view it otherwise. The Church views these situations in a spiritual way, not in a juridical manner. The Church must always seek to act mercifully, and not involve herself in &#34;justice.&#34;

As to at what point it can be said that we ourselves begin to judge-that I cannot tell you , for as we know,each of us has his own conditions when it comes to judging; The Fathers tell us that there is judging and there is Judging. When we know all the details of a given state of affairs or know a person well enough to understand a particular situation that has arisen in his life, then we can have our &#34;judgement,&#34; because we know what we are talking about. For instance, if I have a good friend whom I&#39;ve known for many years an know for a fact that he has a problem with drugs, I can judge that this is killing him, and can alert his family to intervene for the sake of his soul and body. If I have heard rumours that another person with whom I am acqainted with, but not very well, and start tearing him down to others, then I am sinfully Judging him.

When we have little or no information about a person or a given situation, yet choose to pass &#34;Judgement,&#34; then we err, and most often sin, for we have decided on the fate of the soul of another without really knowing all that the circumstances. Of course Margaret, the general rule would be that we try to avoid judgement in any form if we can. But being that we all are finite, weak and sinful, it is in the end a virtue that can only be acquired as all other virtues are-by crying out to God and asking Him to give it to us. Our Saviour promised that &#34;Whatever you ask for in My Name will be given to you.&#34; We simply have to believe that.

With love in Christ,

hieromonk Averky

[Fr Averky]

Dear in the Lord Elizabeth
and Eusebios,

Here are the quotes that I wanted to share with you from &#34;The Mind of the Orthodox Church&#34; by Metropolitan Hierotheos:

&#34;It is a mistake, it is secularism, when we compare the Church with both the ancient and contemporary ideological politico-economic systems. The Church does not simply copy the methods and ways of other social and philosophical systems, but it possesses a life which is beyond them, it has a different purpose which is not the same as that of idealistic systems. To be sure, when the Church cures man, it has great sociological consequences, but that is a result and a fruit, never a cause and principle.
The secularized Church is occupied with human conjecture and abstract ideas. The real and true Church, however, does the same as true medicine, especially surgery. A surgeon can never engage in philosphy and culture or make conjuctions while performing a surgical operation. He is faced with a sick man whom he wishes to cure, to whom he wants to offer health. In the same way the Church, faced with the sick man can never indulge in conjuctures and culture. The Church experiences the mystery of the Cross of Christ and helps man to experience it in his personal life. An experience of the mystery of the Cross is the deepest repentance, through which the nous is transformed from working unnaturally to moving in a natural and supranatural way.
Furthemore, the Church becomes secular when it is degraded into a social organization like so many organizations which exist in society.&#34;

&#34;Unfortunately, some people today regard the Church as a necessary organization, useful to society, and its role is valued according to its social uselfulness. &#34;

&#34;...They acept the Church only as an ornament for various ceremonies and to brighten them with its presence &#40;see the Episcopal Church&#41;&#42;. Or they consider that the presence of the Church is required to demonstrate broad social approval. But it has been pointedly observed not even atheists reject such a Church. I may add that such a secularized Church is the despair even of atheists. They can use it for the present, because it serves them, but when they too need the real presence of the Church in their lives, they will experience great dissapointment.[see people who see the Church as an ethnic social club]&#43;
Today there is a general tendency for us to regard the secular Church as the most useful for contemporary needs. I can add that there is also a growing tendency for us to adapt the Church&#39;s teaching and preaching to to these social needs, especially to the needs of a society which is functioning in an anthropcentric way , because we are afraid of being rejected. &#40;see my point of &#34;me too&#34;&#41;
In any case, a Church that crucifies instead of being crucified, that experiences worldy glory instead of the glory of the Cross, a Church that succumbes to Christ&#39;s three temptations in the wilderness instead of overcoming them, is a secularized Church, It is destined to help the fallen society to remain in its fallen state, and it spreads disappointment and despair to all who are trying to find something deeper and more essesential.&#34;

&#34;In conclusion.we can say that secularism is the greatest danger to the Church. It is this which adulterates her true spirit, her true atmosphere. Of coursae, we must repeat that it it does not udulterate the Church, but the members of the Church, because the Church is the true and sanctified Body of Christ. Therefore we should speak of the secularization of the members of the Church.
The Church is the Jewel of the world., the mercy of mankind. But when this jewel of the world is permeated by the so-called secular spirit, when the Christians, the members of the Church, instead of belonging to this jewel,and instead of being the light of the world, are permeated by the world in the sense of the passions and become world, then they experience secularism. And this seculariism does not lead to deification. It is an anthropocentric view of our life. The Church should enter the world in order to make it become the Church, not the world enter the Church and make it become world.
A secularized Church is utterly unfit and unable to make the world become Church. And the secularized Christians have failed on all levels.&#34;

Dear Elizabeth and Eusebios, this is said a thousand times better than I could, but perhaps you now better understand my own concerns and the position I have taken.

Justin, this also shows your concerns, for the secularized Church does not encourage the faithful to struggle, to take up their cross and follow Christ, but encourages a slick, modern, and convenient approach to Orthodoxy. It is indeed very very dangerous.

With respect in Christ,

Fr. A.

&#42;and&#43;, my own insertion.

[Margaret Lark]

Father, bless! Thank you for your reply.

After you rightly pointed out yesterday that other members of the Board might have something to say on the subject, I thought I&#39;d sit back and see what other comments and thoughts might help deepen my own understanding of the &#34;split personality&#34; I described. I&#39;m a little surprised that no one else spoke up! But the question of what constitutes being judgemental is something that has bothered me for a long time, since I have run into clergy who believe that not letting your kids have contact with the local drug pusher is &#34;judgemental,&#34; while others think it&#39;s plain common sense to keep the two far, far apart.

I have hoped &#40;and believed&#41; that sinful judging is when you attempt to evaluate someone else&#39;s &#42;spiritual&#42; state, as sometimes happens when clergy condemn Wall Street tycoons, or try to paint Jesus as &#34;a special friend of the poor and marginalized.&#34; &#40;Zacchaeus was &#34;marginalized&#34; because he was filthy &#42;rich&#42;!! Then there were those couple of centurions with whom our Lord had contact....&#41; Whereas, judging situations and appearances in order to know how to deal with them comes under the category of being &#34;wise as serpents, and harmless as doves&#34;....no?? Thoughts, anyone?

Kissing your right hand, Father.

[Donald Wescott]

Fr. A,
Father Bless!

Thank you so much for the excellent quotes from "The Mind of the Orthodox Church" You have indeed whetted my appetite for reading the entire volume, and it does indeed shed light on the views you have epressed, thank you once again.

This thread has developed into a good discussion, but has taken a different direction. Perhaps our esteemed moderator could create a new thread to continue this wonderful discussion?

Let me offer the following as a possible point of departure. Did Christ's death and ressurection provide for the sanctification of all spheres of life, including the political sphere?

His unworthy servant,
Eusebios

[Moses Anthony]

Fr. Averky; Margaret L.
Father Bless!

Father I'd intended to answer you yesterday, but for some reason my P.C. was having more problems than usual.

There are those who say that "timing is everything." I've been reading some about the history of the penetential rite in Orthodoxy. I must say that my use of the term revival, is done from how I understood it as a Protestant. As such, I understood revival to mean that there was a renewal of godly living, spiritual of course but also affecting the physical realm. A study of the history of "revivals" here in the U.S.A documents that in the northeast people closed busineses to meet to pray. It is also documented that the sailors on a Merchant ship coming into harbor fell under conviction before they ever reached port. Among the businesses that closed as a result of people meeting to pray were some of the bars. The crime rate also went down! In the African nation of Uganda, the dictator Idi Amin was especially brutal towards Christians, but their ranks swelled.
We speak/post here, about the threatening influence of ecumenicism within Orthodoxy, and how lax some are about preparations before receiving the Body and Blood of the Lord, and how monasticism is needed to lead the way in showing the world there's a standard for real godly living. As the Jesus people were wont to say in the 70's, "We need to get back to first century Christianity." Now I know they (myself included) were talking about more of the demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit; but we were right, in that, people lived with such dedication to the Lord as would shame many of us today. And, they forsook any appearance of sin, submitting themselves to the lordship of Jesus, and to the authority of the Church! How all of that fits into the context of an Orthodox world view I do not know.

Margaret; A few years ago there was a woman put to death here in Texas, who had made a public profession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Her case drew international attention, proposing to commute her execution. The problem for the Dept. of Criminal Justice was, if her sentence is commuted as a result of her profession, how could the Department ever again carry out the death sentence. As a rule most Correctional Officers are skeptical of those who get religion.

The commandment to "judge not lest ye be judged, for with the judgement you mete out, you will be judged" is better understood if we consider the other commandment, "therefore judge with righteous judgement."

We know that bad habits will lead to unfavorable consequences; smoking to lung cancer, drinking excessively to liver problems, drug abuse to a mirid of other crimes and health problems. Therefore we assess -judge- the actions of those who engage in those activities.

Edmund Burke said a long time ago, "All that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." To us that reads, "All that's necessary for sin to triumph is for Christians to not judge sin." The Psalmist said he was envious of those who did not follow God, but seemed to prosper, until he went into the house of God and understood their end.

As to breaking the law, those who advocate civil disobedience will usually point to the Apostles who disobeyed the rulers when they were told to, "not preach in that name, and their response of, "We must obey God rather than man." That, I believe is (or was), the rationale for the 'civil disobedience' of the Rev. M.L. King Jr. Segregation is wrong, but who among us would lead marches against adultery, which is an abberation of the legalality of marriage. We need revival!

The short answer to your question is, NO. Righteous change begins with one voice, and then another, and another, and another. Another way to say righteous judgement is, a pure heart! "If our hearts do not condemn us, we know we have the requests we have asked from God."

sub-deacon Moses

[Elizabeth]

Dear Subdeacon Moses:

At the bottom of your post 143, you quoted, &#34;The short answer to your question is, NO.&#34;

I&#39;m sorry, please quote the question. I&#39;m lost here.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Fr Averky]

Dear Sub-deacon Moses,

Frankly, I do not reember my question to which your simple answer is &#34;no.&#34; I do remember asking you about what revival means. I do not think that it helps any conversation when non-Orthodox words or terms are used to describe Orthodox spirituality or Church life. The entire discussion about &#34;boycotting&#34; and the other one about jury duty serves as more of a distraction than a help. Using terms like &#34;advocacy&#34; serves to bring the Church down to the level that Met. Hierotheos is talking abou in his book &#34;The Mind of the Orthodox Church&#34; which I have quoted. These terms and these considerations are in the realm of the world, and they do not particularly help our spiritual life. As I said recently to someone in a private message, the greatest &#34;advocate&#34; in the history of mankind was our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I remember so very well how when I would visit the monastery in Platina, that I and another pilgrim might become engaged in a very &#34;serious &#34; discussion. As the time wore on, and we might become rather passionate, each about his particular point of view, Father Seraphim would enter the room and assk.&#34;What are you talking about? Is this conversation important for your salvation-are your words mutually salvific?&#34; Of course, we would bow our heads in shame, and change the subject

Now that I understand what your context is, I understand your point. In a sense, the Catholic Church&#39;s need for &#34;renewal&#34; is much like the Revival in that it calls for a re-committment to the Faith. As Orthodox Christians we should not need to have a Renewal or a Revival, for first, the Church constantly renews herself by her daily existence, and secondly, every time an Orthodox Christian goes to Church and confeses his sins, he is experiencing &#34;renewal&#34; in the highest sense, for in His mercy has washed away all sins, and we are given the possibility of having yet another chance to make a change in our lives. For some Americans, it is hard to believe that Christianity did not begin in the Midwest at a tent revival just before the Civil War!

Here is a short story from the life of the Holy Elder Epiphanios Theodprpoulos;

Once he was asked:

&#34;Elder, it is known that peace reigns only in the soul of people of God. However, the Evangelicals also maintain that they feel a permanent calmness in their hearts. How is it possible for this to occur since they are in delusion?
And he responded:
&#34;in the villages, my child, when the villagers wish to tie their donkey for grazing, it is not nessary to tie it by all four feet. It suffices to tie it by one.
The devil does the same thing with the Evangelicals. Since he has them tied by the foot of heresy, he does not attack them with other temptations. Thus, it is explained why they feel peace, as they maintain. However, this peace is superficial and temperal.&#34;

The Elder is pointing when a Church has already succumbed to a totally worldly and not a spiritual view of life, then there is no carrying of one&#39;s cross, no struggle, no fasting, no virtues, only feeling good about being &#34;saved.&#34; Yet ,as the Elder further points out, that &#34;peace&#34; that they claim to have is superficial, thus the need for &#34;revival&#34; from time to time in order that people might get pumped up again. As Metropolitan Hierotheos points ot, the life of the Church must be the way of the Cross.

If one attempts to use the term &#34;All that is necessary for sin to triumph is for Christians to not judge sin,&#34; he is not clear in what the view of the Churhc is in regards to judgement. In the Christian life, there is judgement, but as you pointed out, the &#34;judgment of the righteous.&#34; Orthodox Christians do judge sin-however not with a view towards justice, but with a view towards mercy.

Quoting a Professor by the name of Louvaris ,
the Elder Epiphanios said: &#34;Marxists proclaim that there is nothing beyond matter, and natural laws govern everything. However, natures knows only the law of strength. The laws of love , compassion and justice are unknown to it. Based on this logic, the fate of the lamb is for the wolf to eat and for the rich person to oppress the poor person without ethical responsibility. Only the acceptance of ethical laws, after the rejection of materialism can justify the demand for social justice.&#34;

Dear Moses, when thinking of concept of Justice in the state of Texas, it brings to mind the French saying that &#34;Military justice is to justce as military music is to music.&#34;

Respectfully yours,

Fr. A.

[Margaret Lark]

Father, bless! I tried to respond to John Anthony&#39;s post, but for some reason, the placeholder did not show up in his message, so I&#39;m responding to yours.

You make such a good point, Father, in reminding us that confession is our &#34;revival.&#34; Protestants, of course, see no need for confession, so they have noplace to go to &#34;dust off&#34; the daily accumulation of sin. For myself, with some Evangelicals in my family, I always understood &#34;revival&#34; to mean a re-commitment to living a Christian life. Confession does that beautifully! I think it was Mr. Anthony who made reference to the &#34;Jesus Movement&#34; of the 1970s, &#34;getting back to first-century Christianity.&#34; I wasn&#39;t on a college campus at that time, but that kind of desire was also circulating in the Latin church, so I got to hear of it. My understanding of &#34;getting back to first-century Christianity&#34; was regaining the same enthusiasm that had made it possible for such a small &#34;sect&#34; to grow in such a short time -- &#34;what was it that made Christianity such a compelling, life-changing event?&#34; We all asked ourselves that. I think that was the impetus behind the &#34;relevance&#34; movement, and ultimately, it led to this nonsense of Jesus-as-Revolutionary and Mary-as-Feminist.

And all that time, it was right under our noses, no farther away than the nearest Orthodox parish....

[Donald Wescott]

Protestants, of course, see no need for confession

I find this a rather broad generalization, that perhaps shows a misunderstanding of many Protestants. It seems to me that many do indeed see a need for confession, what they fail to understand is the Orthopraxis and the freedom and beauty involved in it. As a former Protestant I can say that I understood the need to daily , in fact momentarily confess my sins. I would venture to say that I even had a "confessor" if you will, a very close friend with whom I shared much of what burdened my soul and spirit. What I did not know or understand was the sacramental nature of confession as practiced within the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for which I am now eternally gratfeul.


I think that was the impetus behind the "relevance" movement, and ultimately, it led to this nonsense of Jesus-as-Revolutionary and Mary-as-Feminist.

Thouh I am sure that there were any number of misguided philosophies that arose during the "Jesus Movement" period, it again seems overly broad to dismiss the whole of the movement as unfruitful. One of the thins that brought me along the road to Orthodoxy, albeit in a rather roundabout way, was the work and example of Jesus People USA.http://www.jpusa.org/ They are not a perfect organization mind you, but they are sincere in seeking to do the work of The Kingdom.


And all that time, it was right under our noses, no farther away than the nearest Orthodox parish....

No offense, but where I come from, the nearest Orthodox parish might as well have been on the moon! In my hometown of Freeport Illinois there was one tiny Greek parish, which was nothing more than a social club for the small Greek population.I believe that services are held there twice a year, once on the patronal feast day (Elevation of the Cross) and once sometime during Lent. The second larest city in the state, Rockford, also has one Greek parish. Although I now know and admire the priest there, he wasn't around during my early years and outreach consisted of the annual "Greek Festival" So, nothing was right under my nose so to speak. In fact I was nearly 40 before I became aware of the existence of the Orthodox Church, though I had been striving to work out my salvation for nearly twenty years at that point in time.

"Revival" as the term is used by most Protestants, does indeed have to do with a getting back to the basics of the faith . Too often, it is a contrivance meant to play on ones emotions, and is about as deep as a Robert Jennings Bryant speech.But, until we Orthodox start doing a better job of communicating and living out the faith here on the North American continent, this sad phenomenon will continue.Lord have mercy!

The unworthy sinner,
Eusebios

[Elizabeth]

Dear Forum participants:

Many Orthodox Priests and gracious college professors have replied to shy students and inquirers with the cliche: &#34;There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.&#34;

I asked a simple question to elicit your sincere responses regarding appropriate boycotts of firms who donate millions to the abortion industry: What are we obligated to do as Orthodox Christians? I was told just to pray .. nothing more.

Some of my Catholic friends call me a passive insensitive Orthodox Christian because I refuse to participate in pro-life demonstrations or any form of civil disobedience, including leafleting parked cars.

I would rather pay a little more for produce and buy it from a Greek merchant who is a member of my church than buy it from a conglomerate who uses slave labor and pays for their abortions through health care benefits.

I would rather go to a poor private pro-life pharmacist than to a company like Rite-Aid who provides abortifacient birth control pills &#40;ABCs&#41;, etc..

Since we live in the information age, one doesn&#39;t need a detective&#39;s license to find out who these monopolistic pro-abortion industries are. A simple google search should provide all the information needed. By the time I have read some of your rambling responses, I could have spent profitable time searching both the web and scriptures and praying. I&#39;m sure the persons typing those responses wasted a lot of time and energy too.

Arnold the Governator&#39;s economic adviser

Now there is another wrinkle. The anti-life Arnold is running for &#34;Governator&#34; of the sick state of California. Schwarzenegger&#39;s economic adviser, Warren Buffett, has a net worth about $30.5 billion and contributes millions every year to the abortion cause. The url given in the first post of this thread is all about his company.

There is only one pro-life candidate: Tim McClintock who only has $650,000 in his campaign war chest, compared with Bustamante&#39;s and Arnold&#39;s millions.

I suppose I will be told not to vote and not to mention anything political on this site again. OK

If that is the case, then why don&#39;t we start a study thread on the Early Church Fathers and limit our discussions on this forum to things which pertain directly to our salvation, then it won&#39;t be a waste of God&#39;s time. From these organized studies we will have some meaningful discussions, won&#39;t we?

Please forgive me if I offended or misunderstood anyone, but I am really getting confused as to the real purpose of this forum.

Yours truly in Christ,
Elizabeth


&#40;Message edited by chanterhanson on 15 August, 2003&#41;

[Justin]

I told you to do good if you saw it, and pray. What answer did you expect my friend, a long post on rhetorical techniques to be used in emails that can be sent to pro-abortion companies telling them of your dissatisfaction? I&#39;ve tried to give the advice that is generally best &#40;at least as I&#39;ve understood things&#41;. Perhaps this advice is just too simple for a sophisticated world http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/sad.gif

[Fr Averky]

Dear Elizabeth,

I am sorry if your feelings haved been hurt, but I think that if the responses have not been what you have been looking for it is because the Orthodox Church does not approach social problems in the manner that the Western Churches do. You are worried about what your friends think-I would be more concerned for them for they are living in an empty shell, and their social concerns have taken the place of repentance and the spiritual life-which would you prefer? When I was growing up Catholic, the closest thing we came to social action was the annual drive to raise money for the &#34;Pagan Babies.&#34;

Read again what Metropolitan Hierotheos is writing about-that it is the secularized members of a Church who want to use the teaching and the preaching of the Church for social needs. The whole point of my quoting the renowned hierarch and author was to give you an excellent answer from a very pious and learned man.

I do not know what to tell you if you put so little importance in the very good advice to pray. On the personal level, if you want to shop at an Orthodox person&#39;s store and not that of a conglomerate, than you may, but you cannot expect others to either have the desire or even feel the necessity to do so, nor can you expect the Church to involve herself in that manner as well. When I was the purchaser for my monastery, I made a point of buying from local merchants as much as possible in order to support the local economy. It never occured to me to not buy from anyone because of their labour practises. Local people work for the large chains, and it helps them take care of the families.

Almost thirty years ago when I was a novice, I was at that time guest master. It was part of my obedience to give guests staying in the monastery for more than three days some work to do, for that is a general monastic rule. One day I had several guests helping me to paint the long corridors of the monk&#39;s residence. Around 4:00 in the afternoon, the bishop came upstairs to inspect our work. While I was standing talking to him about our progress, a young monk walked by and said a little too loudly-&#34;There is Br. Nicholas enslaving people again!&#34; The bishop turned to him and said &#34;If more people spent their time praying and weeping for their sins and not wasting their time judging the actions of others, we would produce saints at this monastery!&#34;

When you asked initially what does the Orthodox teach on this subject, she has no dogmatic or theological teaching on social issues that I know of-perhaps one of the fathers or &#34;Monk Ivan&#34; might know.

It has become &#34;popular&#34; for some Orthodox Churches to jump onto the band wagon of &#34;social Justice&#34; but this not generally the case. And in so saying, dear Elizabeth, I am not in any way suggesting that social justice is not a good thing, nor is it something that Christians should not concern themselves with. But when Church groups allow themselves to be distracted from the true purpose of the Church which is salvation and not the betterment of the world socially, economically and politically and become passionately involved in &#34;issues,&#34; then they can find themselves involved in acts that are not only obstructive to civil order, but can indeed be sinful. The good advice to pray is simple but deceptively so, for how many of us can say that we truly know how to pray and that we pray as fervently as we can, witrhout distractions, every time we do so?

Prayer is so important in our lives; it is our life, it is our friendship with God. It is seeking mercy for ourserlves and others. It is being under the care of Christ&#39;s pure Mother and ours, it is asking our Guardian Angle to protect us, it is calling out to all the Apostles Martyrs, Virgins, Fathrs, and holy Saints of the Church to interceed for us. And it is powerful in helping others all over the world.

For example: Years ago, there was a deacon in Russia who was imprisoned for publicly writing a letter to Patriarch Pimen and criticizing his and Church policies. He managed to get this letter to the meeting of the WCC when it met in Africa, and it caused quite a sti, for it did not paint a pretty picture of the MP and its willingness to work with the KGB. Many pious people, both clergy and laypeople begn to pray for him, and to our joy and amazement, he was freed! When he came here to teach for a while, one of our parishioners was visting from St. Louis. When the deacon was pointed out to him, he went up to him, hugged him, and said &#34;Father Vladimir,&#34; I just wanted you to know that I prayed for you every day, and so did my wife and children!&#34; Fr. Vladimir wept openly, and told him how much his prayers and those of so many had helped him.

Dear Elizabeth, we must even be careful in our words and their application. I received a message from someone who said that they felt &#34;empowered&#34; after having received one of the Mysteries. In my reply, I said that that word is not appropriate for Orthodox usage, at least not as the New Age mind would see. Only God is &#34;empowered,&#34; we have the ability to be
Grace-filled,&#34; but that is a very different concept. When groups like the feminist Catholic nuns who have their own &#34;masses&#34; feel empowered because they feel that they have achieved euality,, have missed the point of what the spiritual life is.

In the end Elizabeth, I can say what I always say; Go to church as often as possible, be patient, say your prayers, weep for your sins, read the Holy Scriptures and do spiritual reading. And, with all your heart, try to love God and your neigbor. If this can be accomplished on a daily basis, without fail, you will begin to see a great change in your own life, others will see that change, and their lives will be made better because have brought spiritual Light to them. This, dearest Elizabeth, and dear members, this is our social action, this is our true ability to make the world a better place to live in.

With much love in Christ,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Justin,

Shame on you, your are just a young man-don&#39;t give the poor example that I have!
Elizabeth, forgive us for not treating you in a more Christran manner-we are weak and sinful, but we should know better, so please bear with us.

Fr. A..

[George Hawkins]

Dear Elizabeth,
I think the most important thing is to pray especially for those who are destroying life through abortion. Pray for their souls. If you don&#39;t wish to buy goods produced by companies supportive of abortion, that I think is up to you and your conscience. It can be very, very difficult to avoid things though. A Priest here in New Zealand once told me and others we shouldn&#39;t buy products made by a certain company as they are owned by the Seventh Day Adventists, and yet this company produces almost all the breakfast cereals available here as well as many other staples including soy milk which is useful in the fasts.

George

[Photini]

If one day when I am older and wiser I am able to help even one woman to bear her child, it will have been a million times more rewarding than researching and scrutinizing the way everyone chooses to spend their money, or voting for the &#34;right&#34; candidate.
For now, realizing that I can truly contribute very little, or even nothing, I will simply pray.

[Donald Wescott]

Dearest in The Lord Elizabeth,

Check the fine web-site of the Othodox Peace Fellowship for helpful suggestions on this topic. It appears that we have rambled quite a bit from your original, sincere question. I do apologize for any part I played in doing so.

I am still firmly of the belief that prayer can and should be combined with appropriate action, inclluding political action when it comes to important issues like the sanctity of human life, whether the concern is abortion, the death penalty or war. Prayer is certainly our main weapon. I like Justin's suggestion as well, when we see an oppurtunity to do good, we must do it. Borrowing from Fr.A, follow your heart while at the same time using your head,

The In-Communion web-site is www.incommunion.org (http://www.incommunion.org)
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios

[Donald Wescott]

I am surprised to hear Fr. A say that


It has become "popular" for some Orthodox Churches to jump onto the band wagon of "social Justice" but this not generally the case

The Ecumenical Patriarch, SCOBA and The Russian Orthodox Church hardly seem to me to qualify as "Some" Orthodox Churches. It seems to me that the great majority of Orthodox jurisdictions prayerfully enage in some form of "social action". I once aain ask,did not Christ's death encompass all aspects of our life, including the political sphere and that which one may deem social action? Anyone? Anyone?

His unworthy servant
Eusebios

[Elizabeth]

Dear Photini:

If you are sincere, you will quit your job which obligates you to sell the abortion pill to customers.

My sincere prayers for you in this difficult decision.

[Moses Anthony]

E. Hanson

Bosrd member Margaret Lark, in her post# 15 on the twelth of this month asked of Fr. Averky, &#34;...is it judgemental to recognize the dichotomy between caring for the homeless and vilifying the homeless veteran.&#34; Fr. A. tossed the question to other members of the board, to which I answered in a rambling manner.
As I read my post I noticed that part of it was missing &#40;the second time in two posts that were lengthy. Why I do not know &#41;. This may have led to some of your confusion.


the unworthy sevant
sub-deacon Moses

[Moses Anthony]

Dear E. Hanson,

I'm sorry I didn't put this in my earlier post.

If you go through the archives of some of the other threads on this board, you'll find that quite often the answer to a specific question will generate answers which seem totally unrelated. Most of the questions we ask have roots which branch out touching other areas of our lives. Such is the question you initially asked about boycotting pro-abortion companies, which when answered another thread is generated.

I've been a Christian for almost thirty-one years, and Orthodox for only five. I'm still finding out about, and understanding what I sometimes find to be a fuzzy concept, an Orthodox mindset. I try not to use a lot of "religious" sounding words and phrases simply because they're overused, and often misunderstood. Why? because the wife of one of my dearest friends said of me,(quoting loosely) "I love him like a brother, but often what he says goes right over my head." It frustrates me sometimes; but then, how often do we get the chance to make ourselves clearly understood?

Taking into account the posts before this: At its very core the Christian life as lived by Jesus, and subsequently how He taught us to live, is both social activism and commentary. The things one will find in chapter 58 of Isaiah , Micah 6, Matthew 5:16, Ephesians 1, etc, etc, are all in the context of normal daily Christian living.

The ground out of which these things spring is a heart of love and compassion. We articulate them as best we can with the powers at our command, trying not to froget from whence we have come(2 Peter 1:1-11), and when we're aware of offences we beg the Lord and our brethren,"Please Forgive."

Again I've been long winded. Forgive me!

the unworthy servant,
sub-deacon Moses

[Fr Averky]

Elizabeth,

You are totally out of line in telling others what they need to do in order to be sincere. If you were sincere, you would be a little more humble.

Photini, pay no attention to such utter nonsense, and do not bother to answer.

Fr.A.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Request has been made for some additional reasoned consideration of the question of &#39;social activism&#39; from an Orthodox viewpoint.

In response, allow me to offer a few more quotations from Philip Sherrard&#39;s last work, Christianity: Lineaments of a Sacred Tradition &#40;1998&#41;, in which &#40;especially in the second chapter&#41; he deals to some large degree with the issue of &#39;social activism&#39; as respects the Church. He does so by examining the first phase of social integration of Christianity: the acceptance of the faith by the Emperor Constantine and the consequent social status of the Church.

First, Sherrard notes the general responsibility of Christians to the world which has been given them:
<blockquote>&#39;Christianity, without denying the implications of its own revelation, cannot be indifferent to even the most profane aspects of the social order, or the world. Its concern is not with flight from but with the transfiguration of the world&#39; &#40;p. 31&#41;.</blockquote>
I offer this quotation first of all, so that in reading what follows it will not be thought that the author believes the Christian life to be distinct from the life of the world, for which Christ offered Himself. Sherrard elsewhere comments on the &#39;Christian&#39;s responsibility for the fate of the world&#39; &#40;p. 49&#41;; it is an active concern for him.

But this is so in a very specific sense, which Sherrard explains largely via qualification. To this end, he addresses himself to the state of Christianity following the Constantinian peace and social integration of the Church:
<blockquote>&#39;This radical change in the understanding of the relationship between Church and state implicit in the Constantinian settlement did not necessarily mean that the essential initiatory character of Christianity, with all that this implies, would be eliminated. But it did mean that there was now a danger that in its concern for the salvation of society as a whole -- to be realized only through bringing everyone into the universal Christian state -- the Church in its terrestrial manifestation might be led to sacrifice, or at least to compromise, something of its essential initiatory character&#39; &#40;p. 33-4, emphasis mine; cf. p. 41&#41;.</blockquote>
Sherrard&#39;s reference to the &#39;initiatory character&#39; of Christianity is meant to invoke cognisance of the function of the Church as the means by which the individual enters into communion with God -- by which there is initiation into the mystery of the divine life. And his warning in the above passage is the same as that he offered in a quotation I posted here some days ago: involvement with the &#39;politique&#39; of the world does not necessarily mean that this &#39;initiatory&#39; character, the essence of the Church&#39;s mission, is or must be lost; but it opens the door to the possibility that it will be so.

How migh such a loss come about through an interaction with social politique? Sherrard attempts to answer this question through reflection on what he calls the &#39;metaphysical principles&#39; of the Church. This terminology has earned him some critics, who immediately suggest that he is &#39;overly-philosophising&#39; the faith; but in fact his discussion of metaphysics &#40;in chapters two and esp. three&#41; makes very clear that his use of the term is meant to employ the root meaning of the Greek &#40;meta = &#39;above/beyond&#39;, physikos = &#39;physics, nature&#39;&#41;. When Sherrard speaks of the &#39;metaphysical principles&#39;, he speaks explicitly of the Trinity, of the divine essence, and other chief doctrines of the Christian Mystery, which in the reality of their truth lie beyond the rational and &#39;physical&#39; arenas of human knowledge.

This in mind, he writes:
<blockquote>&#39;When it is remembered that in its anxiety to form [a Christian] state, the Church was led increasingly to translate the metaphysical principles of the Christian religion into coercive moral rules to which everyone must be obedient, it is not surprising that one of the absurdities in which the revolt of the individual has resulted is the attempt to construct a moral code which has no basis in religion at all, and finally even to deny that there is any morality&#39; &#40;p. 44, emphasis mine&#41;.</blockquote>
In other words, Sherrard suggests that one of the &#39;logical&#39; consequences of focusing upon social interactions rather than the internal mysteries of the faith &#40;i.e. engagement and union with God&#41;, is that those mysteries &#40;Sherrard&#39;s &#39;metaphysical principles&#39; of Christianity&#41; begin to be translated into ethical codes of social conduct. There is nothing wrong with codes of social conduct, per se; but these are not the primary purpose of the Christian mystery. When this mystery is interpreted in a social/civil manner, it loses its true character: becomes a collection of social guidelines which --and this is Sherrard&#39;s chief observation-- will eventually gain autonomy from the mystery itself, losing their need for it, perhaps even denying it.

This seems to me an excellent definition of secularisation.

One further quotation from his work:
<blockquote>&#39;For when the metaphysical principles of a religion become of less effective account than the moral rules which derive in an entirely secondary manner from them, so that religion itself for all practical purposes becomes a matter of morality -- of good conduct on a dualist right or wrong basis -- and not primarily a matter of spiritual knowledge and understanding, then it will not be long before the principles themselves are forgotten. When this happens, religion degenerates into being an ethical system, of no great, if no less, authority than any other such system; and the forms of religion, their living roots in their supra-terrestrial reality now ignored, degenerate into being no more, if no less, than instruments for the maintenance and preservation of a particular social order. When this happens, the stage is set for the emergence of a purely secular society of which modern western society is an example&#39; &#40;pp. 44-5&#41;.</blockquote>
INXC, Matthew

[Margaret Lark]

Elizabeth Hanson wrote: &#34;Some of my Catholic friends call me a passive insensitive Orthodox Christian because I refuse to participate in pro-life demonstrations or any form of civil disobedience, including leafleting parked cars.&#34;

Ah, now I understand your concerns and where they are coming from. I remember when this spirit began to creep into the Latin church. Let me try to help.

Your Catholic friends have been taught all their lives that prayer is &#34;cheap,&#34; that it costs them nothing to say to a friend, &#34;I&#39;ll pray for you,&#34; and that prayer without action is worthless. They have also been taught that civil disobedience is a worthy action, because Martin Luther King, in his &#34;Letter from Birmingham County Jail,&#34; quotes Thomas Aquinas as having said, &#34;An unjust law is no law at all&#34; -- and extrapolates from that that you can&#39;t break a law that doesn&#39;t exist, and it doesn&#39;t exist if it&#39;s unjust.

They really believe all this. And they have no concept, never having been taught it, of God&#39;s being remotely involved in our lives on earth. They have been taught that &#42;they&#42; are Christ&#39;s hands and feet, and somehow, Christ&#39;s conscience, too. &#40;And before anybody gets annoyed with these statements, please remember -- I watched this transformation in thought take place. These aren&#39;t just my opinions, I&#39;ve seen the Latin church &#34;do a 180&#34; on the subject of social activism.&#41;

The problem with this approach is that &#40;a&#41; it doesn&#39;t nourish anyone spiritually, and &#40;b&#41; it&#39;s not personal enough -- ironically, since the point of social activism is supposed to be to effect personal change. You can tell your friends that you know a &#42;very&#42; pro-life Orthodox woman who not only tosses car leaflets into the trash, but also threatened to vote for a pro-abortion candidate if they didn&#39;t stop pestering her! &#40;Me. And I don&#39;t think I would have, but I was desperate to get these fanatics out of my hair.&#41;

&#42;Real&#42; social activism is your response to God. You pray your prayer rule faithfully, and you see where your daily life takes you. I know Catholics who think they have to seek out opportunities to Serve Christ, as if they don&#39;t trust Him to provide them with all the opportunities they need. Let&#39;s say you feel strongly about promoting pro-life causes -- I&#39;d say that&#39;s a pretty safe bet. Is there a BirthRight organization near you? Do you have time or skills to volunteer? Can you knit layettes? Keep their records? IOW, what are &#42;your&#42; talents, given you by God, and how can you use them for something you care about?

And let&#39;s say that none of that is true: You don&#39;t have the time, you can&#39;t knit, you can&#39;t even find your own tax records, let alone help somebody with their records. You &#42;can&#42; pray. That is not a cheap answer, because you are bringing something you care about very deeply before the Throne of God; and because you care, you can be sure that He cares, for He put that care into your heart. &#40;But of course, that means you have to trust Him to do something about it. I think social activists have a hard time trusting God; He just doesn&#39;t move fast enough for them, or He&#39;s too quiet about His actions, or something.&#41;

I&#39;ve been down this road, up this mountain, across these rapids with social activists. They sound so darned &#42;reasonable.&#42; But ultimately, they forget that all of life is in the hands of God; our obligation is to pray to Him about those things which disturb us, commit our lives and causes into His care, repent before Him for having tried to take on His job &#40;&#34;becoming like unto God&#34; is something mankind has been trying to figure out how to do since Adam and Eve&#41;, and ask Him humbly so to arrange our lives that we can be of the best service to Him as He sees fit. Trust me, He will. Marriage was &#42;never&#42; in my game plan, till I prayed that prayer.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Matthew,

I think the &#34;problem&#34; of the loss of the initiatory character of the Church is less metaphysical than we are making it &#40;or Sherrard is making it&#41;. It is simply a function of any organization&#39;s success that its standards of admission go down to the point of virtual meaninglessness. That&#39;s where we are today with the Church, except in places where it poses significant hardship due to political persecution and/or social ostracization. Such as being Orthodox in a Muslim state.

It used to be to get a high school diploma was a big, big deal. College virtually unheard of. Now, everyone who can exhale is virtually guaranteed a college degree in this country. Making a college educational virtually meaningless. &#40;A high school education is totally meaningless&#41;.

But perhaps a more salient analogy or comparison is to AA, which has a similar ascesis as Orthodoxy. In the early days, there was still a social bias against alcoholics, so there was extreme social pressure to keep it in the closet. Also, the original members would actually turn people away who did not meet their criteria for being &#34;ready.&#34; The &#34;success&#34; rate was claimed to be over 50%. Some say 90%. Today, it has become chic to be in AA. There are millions of members world-wide. WE let anyone walk in the door and stay, often even if they are distruptive. We allow people who are court-ordered or mandated by clinical treatment programs &#40;i.e. social pressure&#41;. And now the integrity of AA has been undermined and the success rate is under ten per cent.

As an Orthodox Christian for over ten years, I must tell you -- no one has ever required me to do anything that involved any kind of social, personal, material, physical, moral, spiritual cost.

[Owen Jones]

The Ecumenical Patriarch is a liberal social activist to the core. On his visit to the U.S. some years back, he made pilgrimage to every secular, left-wing shrine in America representing &#34;social justice.&#34; He organized a large contingency of people to cruise the Black Sea for the sole purpose of social activism on the ecology issue. So if we condemn a participant on this message board for veering the Church away from its true spiritual mission into the false path of social activism, how much more should we condemn the Ecumenical Patriarch?

[Owen Jones]

On the other hand, the SPIRIT of social activism is a grave sin which is the death of everything holy. It is born of a demonic spirit of control and domination. The trick is to be morally sound and consistent, speaking out when it can be effective, taking action when it can be effective, without the passions driving one&#39;s impulses. I don&#39;t get involved in anti-abortion activism because I know myself well enough to know that I would end up killing somebody.

With that said, the ORthodox Church in the U.S. has been hopelessly silent on the issue of the slaughter of the unborn, and the general drift of society. It strikes me that, in general, the hierarchy simply lacks the basic competency level to address this problem, and connect it to the Orthodox way of life. Not necessarily to transform society, but to re-establish the Church&#39;s own integrity. It strikes me that we have a long way to go to find a middle ground between total complacency regarding the culture, and a kind of Amish particularity.

I personally would love to see a Church that imposes a cost on its flock. For example, being a state bureaucrat today is not unlike being a state bureacrat for the Romans. Part of the initiatory discipline in the early Church was to resign a job for the state, because it required burning incense to the Emperor as god. The authorities told Christians, just do it and cross your fingers. Nobody really believes the Emperor is god anyway! But even that was too much for a Christian.

We have no such standards today, which means that being a Christian in today&#39;s society imposes no cost. When it imposes no cost, it is meaningless -- just words.

That&#39;s not true for an Orthodox Christian living, in say, Sudan, or Indonesia, who risks having his family slaughtered and his Church burned on any given day.

[Herman Blaydoe]

Nobody is condemning social activism. I think some are cautioning that &#34;social activism&#34; as currently defined, can be harmful to one&#39;s spiritual life and is not indemic to Holy Orthodoxy, that is, one can be an Orthodox Christian and NOT be a &#34;social activist.&#34; There are different ministries, different gifts. A hermit praying in a secluded cave does good, as does my giving to charity, as does your volunteer work at the local food bank, or Metropolitan Herman participating in the annual March for Life, or the Ecumenical Patriarch&#39;s activities in support of environmentalism. There ARE those Orthodox who DO criticize the EP for his activities, that his motives are less spiritual and more political, but I choose not to judge. I think, for an Orthodox Christian, there are many ways that are &#34;right&#34;, but it behooves us to first obtain a blessing for what we do, from a bishop/priest or spiritual father before we run off with good intentions but to our spiritual detriment. As the Holy Apostle Paul admonishes, &#34;all things are lawful, but not all things edify.&#34;

I do agree with Owen on one thing. I think it was Bonhoeffer who said, there is no such thing as &#34;cheap grace.&#34; We must be willing to make a sacrifice, to carry a cross of some kind, be it good works, charity, or ascetism. But the one who prays and fasts does no less good than the one who distributes leaflets, perhaps moreso. If you feel the call to be &#34;socially active&#34; and have received a blessing from a spiritually responsible person, then go for it and may God bless it. However, you should not be made to feel guilty for following another spiritually edifying path either. Social activism is not the end-all and be-all of being a Christian. Or so it seems to this simple mind.

Herman the simple

[Justin]

Father, Bless

Father A.


Shame on you, your are just a young man-don't give the poor example that I have! Elizabeth, forgive us for not treating you in a more Christran manner-we are weak and sinful, but we should know better, so please bear with us.

I spoke rashly, so I most certainly apologize to everyone here; especially Elizabeth.

All,

Though I'm not exactly sure how Owen is approaching this, I think he certainly brings the discussion to a point that could make it the most clear. Owen said: "We have no such standards today," and that in fact is the (western) Orthodox Christians number one concern today. Secularism is our Nero. Nihilism is out Diocletian. "Comfort" is our caesaropapism. "Entertainment" is our invading barbarian.

Living in the west today is not a whole lot different than living in other centuries or geographical locations. The temptations and pressures change, but the fact that we are tried stays the same. Our trials might not threaten the body, and for that this too-worldly youth is thankful. Yet, that which threatens the soul is just as powerful today as it has ever been. Probably more so. And that is who our Lord tells us to fear: those who can kill both the body and the soul, and land them in hell.

Certainly there was a "Golden Age" in Church life... I'm just not sure where it was! Was it when the Church was persecuted by the Roman emperors? No, then we see mass abandonment of the Church: the more the state persecuted, the more "Christians" left. One of the first big controversies in the Church was what to do with all these people who left the Church because of persecution and then came back later.

How about the Fourth and Fifth Century, then? The Age of Constantine, Theodosius... Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian, John Chrysostom, on and on (literally dozens upon dozens of saints)? Sure there were bad spots--there was the occasional apostate Julian or semi-Arian emperor--but surely Christianity did quite well under so many saints and such freedom? But again, no. Gregory the Theologian lamented:


I was ashamed of all those others, who, without being better than ordinary people, nay, it is a great thing if they be not worse, with unwashen hands, as the saying rims, and uninitiated souls, intrude into the most sacred offices; and, before becoming worthy to approach the temples, they lay claim to the sanctuary, and they push and thrust around the holy table, as if they thought this order to be a means of livelihood, instead of a pattern of virtue, or an absolute authority, instead of a ministry of which we must give account. In fact they are almost more in number than those whom they govern; pitiable as regards piety, and unfortunate in their dignity; so that, it seems to me, they will not, as time and this evil alike progress, have any one left to rule, when all are teachers, instead of, as the promise says, taught of God, and all prophesy, so that even "Saul is among the prophets," according to the ancient history and proverb. For at no time, either now or in former days, amid the rise and fall of various developments, has there ever been such an abundance, as now exists among Christians, of disgrace and abuses of this kind. And, if to stay this current is beyond our powers, at any rate it is not the least important duty of religion to testify the hatred and shame we feel for it. - Oration 2 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-33.htm#P3010_856772)

And Saint John Chrysostom lamented:


Let us now after this be ashamed, and blush. A woman who had had five husbands, and who was of Samaria, was so eager concerning doctrines, that neither the time of day, nor her having come for another purpose, nor anything else, led her away from enquiring on such matters but we not only do not enquire concerning doctrines, but towards them all our dispositions are careless and indifferent. Therefore everything is neglected. For which of you when in his house takes some Christian book in hand and goes over its contents, and searches the Scriptures? None can say that he does so, but with most we shall find draughts and dice, but books nowhere, except among a few. And even these few have the same dispositions as the many; for they tie up their books, and keep them always put away in cases, and all their care is for the fineness of the parchments, and the beauty of the letters, not for reading them. For they have not bought them to obtain advantage and benefit from them, but take pains about such matters to show their wealth and pride. Such is the excess of vainglory. - Homily 32 on John (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-14/npnf1-14-36.htm#P1668_566281)[/URL]

And:


There, common (to the whole congregation) stands the deacon crying aloud, and saying, "Let us attend to the reading." It is the common voice of the whole Church, the voice which he utters, and yet none does attend. After him begins the Reader, "The Prophecy of Esaias," and still none attends, although Prophecy has nothing of man in it. Then after this, he says, "Thus saith the Lord, and still none attends. Then after this punishments and vengeances, and still even then none attends. But what is the common excuse? "It is always the same things over again." This it is most of all, that ruins you. Suppose you knew the things, even so you certainly ought not to turn away: since in the theatres also, is it not always the same things acted over again, and still you take no disgust? How dare you talk about "the same things," you who know not so much as the names of the Prophets? Are you not ashamed to say, that this is why you do not listen, because it is "the same things over again," while you do not know the names of those who are read, and this, though always hearing the same things? You have yourself confessed that the same things are said. - [URL="http://www.ccel.org/%20fathers2/NPNF1-11/npnf1-11-26.htm#P835_727808"] Homily 19 on Acts (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-14/npnf1-14-36.htm#P1668_566281)

And there is more, but I'll stop. The point of all this is that we sometimes go through Church history, looking for that "Golden age," and hoping that we can somehow recapture it's spirit. The only problem is, even if we go back to the Bible we find that the true Orthodox spirit is sometimes hard to find even in the Church. I'm not just speaking of the letters of Paul--surely we expect these to deal with errors. But there are other evidence; e.g., of seven letters that our Lord sent to Churches in Revelation, how many were wholly positive, complimentary ones?

The secular world has effected those in the Church--just as it did in the time of Chrysostom, just as it will do a thousand years from now (if we live that long). The Church cannot fall, but there will be tares among us, and while the gates of hell (ie. heresies and other things which attack the Church) cannot prevail against Orthodoxy, they will certainly try, and they will sometimes have an effect on members within the Church. The dangers today are the same that they were before us: secularism, nihilism, humanism, etc. The difference is in how they come to us, and what range of options we have.

To see someone standing in front of an abortuary (ie. an abortion clinic) raises two thoughts in my mind. First, I worry that people will get so caught up in activism that they will lose sight of what is important. We are not suppose to fear those who can kill the body alone. And so our focus should not be on just "saving babies" (physically). However, I know that many people who stand in front of abortuaries do attempt to give some type of counselling and spiritual direction to those who will talk--if they will accept it.

On the other hand, were I to see an Orthodox Christian standing with such people in front of an abortuary, I would certainly not judge him. I would rather recall to mind the verses that command us to protect the innocent and those in need. That is, after all, true religion (so long as one also complete the second part of the verse and keep themselves pure). My very use of the word abortuary--purposefully used with the intent of stigmatizing abortion and abortion clinics--is itself an active step in combatting abortion, even if it is only rhetorically active.

This comes back around to where we were: if you see good, then do it. When some saints saw slaves for sale, they went and bought them, and then having "purchased" them, they freed them. Is this a saintly activism? I don't know, but if someone wants to claim that they are trying to follow them and do a similar thing, who am I to disagree? So long as we realize that Satan is after us and that the world can effect us, and that we must watch for these temptations and keep our hearts seeking "the one thing needful," how we serve is of secondary importance. Some saints gave food to those who were starving. Some healed disease. Some had places for the elderly ("old folks homes" are not a modern invention).

We do what we can. If we see good, we should do it. Otherwise, we should try to keep to ourselves--as Saint Tikhon of Zadonsk said. Trying to do too much will deprive of of our focus and zeal for God. What Saint Ambrose said of "relaxing" is applicable regarding "activism" (under whatever name) as well: "Let us then take heed that, in wishing to relax our minds, we do not destroy all harmony, the blending as it were of all good works. For habit quickly bends nature in another direction." (Duties of the Clergy, 1, 20)

Please forgive the length of this.

[Photini]

Dear Father Averky,
Father Bless.

Thank you truly. I am sure Elizabeth meant well. I very much appreciate her prayers for me and also for my children. However, a change in my work is far from my worries as of now. If a priest with whom I trust and have developed a closeness to were to indicate to me that my place of work was a problem, I would waste no time putting in my notice...but so far there has been no indication of this.
It is clear, though, that she and I differ in our approach to these things.
I do sincerely hope to one day lead a simple life that will be a pleasing fragrance to our Lord. For now though, I beg for the prayers of others. Elizabeth, has offered up a prayer for me without me even asking for it, and for that I am truly touched.
With much love in Christ,
photini

[Richard McBride]

monochos: confession

Blessed of the Lord Eusebios:

I envy your beautiful name. At one time I had thought that if I were ordained I might take &#40;actually seek, for it would have been the prerogative of the bishop&#41; the Western name of Saint Hilary du Poitiors. Later, it became clear that there was no hope of wresting the sound of it from the pronunciation given to the President&#39;s wife&#39;s name, as opposed to the nice, if slightly tongue-twisted, French manner -- more like Eelair, where the &#39;r&#39; is slightly aspirated.

But that is all in the past, and I shall now be happy to contemplate the nice names of others, such as yours. [Although, while I myself am quite happy with Richard, one of my not-quite spiritual guides -- a sort of spiritual handy man and hieromonk in the Greek Church, by whose criticism I am hugely blessed -- refuses to even remember my Norman name.] That is one of the things we converts missed out on -- especially the buisness of celebrating our Saint&#39;s day rather than the awful secularism of birthdays.

Another problem for changeling Protestants is this business of &#39;confession&#39;. Since none of the other ducks have jumped on this June bug, I should make the point that your reference to, &#34;a need for confession&#34; is missing the point a bit. And probably you have already thought twice about this statement, &#34;I would venture to say that I even had a &#34;confessor&#34; if you will, a very close friend with whom I shared much of what burdened my soul and spirit. &#34;

A close friend may be a &#39;confessor&#39;, and at times indeed be necessary in one&#39;s life. Also, there is an ancient tradition in the Church of those pious souls who were called Confessors of the Faith. But neither of these situations refers to &#39;confession&#39; as the Church speaks of it.

In fact, that of which we should be speaking is not confession, but Repentance. The meaning comes from the Greek metanoia, which reflects perfectly, the condition which is most necessary to Repentance: A change of heart. That is what so-called confession is all about. And many of the Fathers have said that if it is not accompanied with tears, perhaps even weeping, then such a change has not taken place.

Another, more technical point: One cannot confess in this manner of Repentance to friend. &#40;If others think I am wrong in this, I should be happy to hear from them.&#41; In fact, one does not confess &#39;to&#39; a priest either. One confesses to God, in the presence of the Priest &#40;not a friend&#41;, wherein the Priest adds his prayers for the success of the metanoia -- this metamorphosis in the confessor&#39;s life.

A great deal more may be said about this business of &#39;confession&#39;, but I&#39;m sure that this will recall to you, Eusebios, what you have already heard. Primarily, I say this much for the non-Orthodox who may be listening in. I shouldn&#39;t want the wrong impression to go out to them. Confession is one of the primary sacraments of the Church. Without it, few people are able to approach the Divine Liturgy with any hope of avoiding condemnation, much less of partaking of the Mystery. And while the time required between Confession and Divine Liturgy may vary, no Orthodox Church denies the necessity of its requirement.

There are many books on Repentance and Confession. Here is an URL to only one of the many articles available at the Orthodox Christian Information Center:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/confession.htm

richard mcb

[Owen Jones]

Dear Richard,

Thanks for pointing out the stupidity of celebrating belly button birthdays. As if it were some kind of virtue! In AA we make a big deal about AA birthdays &#40;sobriety dates&#41;, since it is our spiritual birth. We throw a party, eat cake, and have hear a speaker tell his story of redemption.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Professor McBride,

Thank you for such a clear and helpful definition of confession. I am particularly grateful to you for the next to the last paragraph in which you state &#34;Without it, few people are able to approach the Divine Liturgy with any hope of condemnation, much less of partaking of the Mystery.&#34; This is a case in which an clear statement, coming from a pious, knowledgeable and educated lay person has more impact than coming from a clergyman. God bless you, Professor McBride, you have given all of us something very helpful! Through your prayers, my health is better.

In the Lord

Fr. A.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Owen,

As regarding your, "just words": I'd bet my bottom dollar that at some point or another religious leadership of all stripes and faith, have been silent on some social issue, when everyone else was out front. It has been my understanding during my years as a Christian, especially as an Orthodox - that the whole point of living out our faith in a religiously syncrestic society, was to transform that society. It seems on the surface that the integrity of the Church/Synagogue was the prime concern of the Pharisees and Saducees, whom Jesus chided for not being concerned about justice and mercy.

The monk Telemachos(?) was so bothered when he heard of the sport of the Roman Coliseum journied there, and in the midst cried out against it. Devoid of their sport, the crowd turned thumbs down to the humble monk, who was summarily killed. The Emperor, hearing of the fate of the monk, shut down the gladitor games which never re-opened, sealing the fate of the Coliseum. As to the veracity of this historical story, well, I'm not 100% sure. However; Christians did transform Roman society by simply living their faith in the face of persecution of every type. Now if you wanted a society in which there existed every form of evil you'd like to fight against, Rome was it. How could we better regain the integrity of the Church (which should tell you about the changes wrought to reach society), than by living our faith which would also transform the surrounding society.

Come on Owen you should know better! If as you say that being a Christian in today's society involves no cost for Christians, then the words of our Lord Jesus Christ are a lie!(Matthew 10). In His grace, the uworthy servant

subdeacon Moses

[E.Hanson]

Dear Forum Members:

I have decided to leave the forum for the time being because it was taking away from silent time that I needed to pray and read from the Holy Scriptures and other holy books.

Hopefully someone will start a study of the Church Fathers using the structure of an online course. That would interest me very much.

Thank you, dear Photini, for understanding the true intent of my post. I will keep you and your family in my prayers.

Forgive me a sinner and pray for me as I prepare for another year at the university.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Owen Jones]

I&#39;m sorry, Moses, but I&#39;m not making any connection here between what you are saying and what I said. I did make a comment that in the process of becoming Orthodox and being Orthodox for ten years, that I have never experienced any demands or costs placed on me by the Church. Anything I may have sacrificed I did on my own without any suggestion or command by the Church. It&#39;s very easy to be an Orthodox Christian today, was my primary point, from the standpoint, not of the pressures of living in a secular society, but from the standpoint of the standards of the Church. I am familiar with a very few parishes that make high demands on the community. Some have even gone a bit overboard in one direction or another, and then gotten back into balance in time &#40;these are convert parishes as you might expect&#41;. But typically in the ORthodox Church, you either group up in it because you are Greek or whatever, or you get interested, you knock on the door, people are polite, you take a short course in Church history, you attend services on Sunday on a fairly regular basis for a year, you make your confession, you get chrismated, and that&#39;s about it. The rest is up to your own conscience. You volunteer for stuff. like church committees, bake sales, Greek festivals, etc. Living in a secular society only imposes costs of a certain existential nature which you just deal with, privately, since the Church today really has no articulate answer for that problem.

It seems to be a bit of a stretch to imply from that statement, which is hardly arguable, that I have called Jesus a liar. All I have done is simply describe what is in the contemporary religious milieu.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Owen,

I think that you have, in a nutshell, pretty well traced the usual path of the convert to Orthodoxy. Thank God you had the opportunity to volunteer; I knew a man wo joined a parish and for three years no one even told him that there was a coffee hour in the hall, and he was never told of many of the events which took place. He finally went to a ROCOR parish which had a lot of converts, and became quite active in the life of the parish. I will admit that this was not a typical Russian parish.

A big part of all of this comes from the fact that the Church has always had the stance that it is in the world, but not of the world. This is also seen in the attitude of the Church towards intellectualism; the Church has often been accused of being anti-intellectual, but it is because she carefully guards the necessity of aproaching God in the heart, and not in the mind. It is difficult to walk the narrow path between social issues and bringing souls to salvation, and to being educated, rational sheep of Christ, and being simple and humble in one&#39;s approach to God.

People like St. John of Kronstadt, who lifted so many people from the mire of drunkeness and poverty to the self-worthy position of being a useful member of society, did not worry about if what he was doing was &#34;politically correct;&#34; he saw each person, no matter how filthy or down-trodden he might be, as having been created in the likeness and image of God, and worthy of respect and a place in life.

He did this from the goodnes of his heart, and millions of gold rubles flowed through his hands annually to help the impoverished. He built a small town in which former drunks were trained to be bakers, butchers, tailors, tinkers, and so on, having the ability to take care of their wives and children.

Any of us could be such a person, for if we set out, with our hearts and faith in God, we will be able to accomplish much. So too, we could all be missionaries if we would be witnesses for Christ through our daily lives.

Thank you Owen, and thank you too Moses, for your good words. Sometime when we do not understand each other&#39;s words, we are then given opportunity to clear up our misunderstanding and learn more from each other. Both of you have given me much to think about many times, and I appreciate it.

Love in Christ,

hieromonk Averky

[Margaret Lark]

Owen Jones wrote, &#34;It&#39;s very easy to be an Orthodox Christian today....typically in the Orthodox Church, you either group up in it because you are Greek or whatever, or you get interested, you knock on the door, people are polite, you take a short course in Church history, you attend services on Sunday on a fairly regular basis for a year, you make your confession, you get chrismated, and that&#39;s about it. The rest is up to your own conscience.&#34;

Well -- then you have to &#42;live&#42; it, no? Especially if you are a convert -- I don&#39;t know anyone who wakes up one morning and says, &#34;I think I&#39;ll become Orthodox because it&#39;s such a cool place to be!&#34; A cradle Orthodox comes with his own set of obligations for living an Orthodox life -- he may not feel obligated to attend every Vespers and Vigil, but from what I&#39;ve seen, the obligation to one&#39;s community is taken &#42;very&#42; seriously. That&#39;s its own form of living the faith. Then there&#39;s the &#34;Greek/Russian School on Saturday&#34; thing, and most Orthodox families send their kids to school with PBJ every Wednesday and Friday that God sends, let alone Great Lent &#40;at least in New England, they do&#41;. And then there&#39;s the sports-on-Sunday thing, which means the kids have to choose between intra-mural sports and going to church because the wimpy Western clergy won&#39;t stand up to the schools and say, &#34;Sunday morning is &#42;not&#42; for sports!!&#34; and the Orthodox clergy can&#39;t do anything alone.

I won&#39;t even go into the home situation where one spouse is a convert and the other isn&#39;t, except to say that at times, it can feel almost like a martyrdom.

[Owen Jones]

But all of these things you are referring to Margaret are feelings. Or what you might call the existential cost of being Orthodox in a non-Orthodox society. I was simply calling attention to the fact that, from the standpoint of the Church&#39;s institutional standards, there really is no cost to becoming Orthodox. There are no significant requirements, initially or ongoing. One just shows up. That is not lodged as a complaint. It simply is an observation.

[George Azar]

I totally agree with you margaret and owen. It takes nothing to become Orthodox today. It is sad at Orthos every sunday when there are only my son, myself and at most 2 other people from a parish of about 125 or so families! It&#39;s the same at Paraklesis service, no more than 3 or 4 people. I do feel better that I am helping pass the Orthodox faith to my son and his half sister &#40;from his mothers side&#41;. We attempt to chant the Orthos and we feabily attempt to sing the Paraklesis but it makes all the difference in the world to my son Patrick. He loves to participate in the services, when no else will sing you will hear his Kyrie Elison. I try to teach him the Traditions and traditions of our faith and culture, I have even set a time aside every evening for him to read something of Orthdoxy, mainly from the books that I have. My fear is that once he leaves the nest, he will no longer be motivated to attend services and be a part of the Church. I say this because the outside world has become such a play ground for our youth. I am having to demand his time to learn of the Church while he argues for his time for Civil Air Patrol meetings, marching band, and flying lessons! All is lost when he goes to visit his mother. As I have told him before, Orthodoxy, the ONE TRUE HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC FAITH, is all that I have to give him, it is his job to be the keeper of the faith and pass it along to his children. The same faith that has been kept for 2,000 years!
I see many converts that are more interested in the faith and learning everyday of the faith with zeal. Yet, I see many cradle Orthodox that are content with their going to the Liturgy once or twice a year. Our priest can do only so much.

My son and I are Orthodox but my wife isn&#39;t, there really isn&#39;t a problem, she attends Liturgy with us at times and always on Pascha, but she really doesn&#39;t understand how we feel about our love of the Church or the Liturgy.

[Richard McBride]

monochos: always present is the problem of the &#39;times&#39;

Blessed of the Lord George:

What a blessing is Patrick to you. That he has taken to Orthodoxy, as part of your life, is a marvelous thing. And for him it may prove more and more a blessing in his life that you have been able to share this with him.

Do not worry about Patrick&#39;s direction. Never worry. As long as you are deeply intent upon doing those things which the Holy Spirit quietly directs, then the rest is up to Him. And even if Patrick goes off on a tangent -- which does not sound likely -- you may be sad for his fling, making you pray and weep over his error, but NOT to worry. You do not, cannot, and should not even imagine that you control his life.

But I know you know all this. I say it only to establish the longer perspective.

You are so blessed to have your own sights set upon an Orthodox life. I may especially enjoy your success; for not having taken that direction in my own life while my children were of Patrick&#39;s age is something I have lost. Happily, two of my three lambs &#40;or two lambs and a goat&#41; have come into the church and are better Orthodox than I. The great blessing is that of the beautiful grand babies Baptized into the true Church, and now being reared in it.

And as you say, the plight of the born Orthodox is a different thing. It may indeed be worse, in the respect that they become inured to Orthodoxy.

We should pray for those young people, especially those who are the tail end of an &#39;ethnic&#39; family, always trying to become more and more American, Gringo, Houlie, Modern, New Age, or what have you. That is truly a great problem, and we have witnessed it mroe than once on this list.

I pray for enlightenment of your wife, George, and for Patrick to grow and grow, ever gaining more courage to curb his passions and struggle for the pure heart.

richard mcb

[Fr Averky]

Dear George.

Your words are indeed inspiring, and Professor McBride said everything that I might have, but much better. From the viewpoint of the priest, it is so discouraging to come to the church and only a few people have made the effort to attend.

In the Russian tradition, rather than doing the Akathist to the Mother of God over a number of Fridays, we serve the entire Akathist with a moleiben on the Friday of the Fifth week of Great Lent and here at the monastery, many people come, some even from New York and New Jersey. One year, I served at a cathedral parish, and I was so excited when the day arrived for the evenining&#39;s service to the Theotokos. Out of my own pocket, I bought beautiful flowers and set evereything up. That night, I had three choir members, and seven people in church out a possible three hundred seventy five.

God bless you all the more for your being so concerned about your son&#39;s growth in the life of the Church. I praise Professor McBride, a retired gentleman who is also a convert who in his love for God and His Church, saw to it that he gave to his children and grandchilren their most precious inheritance-their Orthodox Faith. Sad to say, so many converts embraced Orthodoxy, but in time lost their fervour. Thanks to men like you George, and Professor McBride, there is hope for continued growth in the Church. I will be praying for you as I do Professor McBride and all the members of this forum.

In Christ,

Fr. A.

[Moses Anthony]

Dear Owen,
In the post in question, your comment about cost, was not about encountering no cost in becoming Orthodox. My post was to the point of encountering cost as a disciple of Jesus. Further:I did not say you called Jesus a liar: I said that if as you say there is no cost in being a Christian in today&#39;s society, then Jesus is a liar. I placed the Scripture reference from Matthew at the end of that sentence.
I checked the most recent archives, and replied to what was on the monitor before me.
As to the Church not making any demands upon converts, well, as a convert I agree. We are to accoustomed to pampering our flesh. I too have stood in Sunday Matins in a parish, and have been the only one there other than the priest and cantor. Each will receive his reward according to his own labor!
In His grace, the unworthy servant

sub-deacon Moses

[George Azar]

Bless Father

Father A. and Richard, thank you for your kind words.

Back in the 60&#39;s my ambition in life was to become an Orthodox priest. I had such a burning desire to enter the holy priest hood and my sittie &#40;grandmother&#41; was so proud of me and very encouraging. I fell to the culture of the times and the opportunity escaped me, rather I should say I blinded myself with the temptations of the times, and did not follow my heart. I distanced myself from the church and thought that I had all the answers. I fell so deeply into sin and the whole time deep in my heart somewhere, I craved to return to the church. Finally over many years Patrick came into my life. I had him baptized into the Orthodox church on Dec. 29, 1990. I called an Orthodox priest on a Friday and this blessed priest, without hesitation, agreed to baptize my son the next day. Fr. Andrew of St. Stephen Orthodox Church in Hiram, Ga. and Deacon Ray came out on a cold and dreary day to bring my son into the Church. It was the most moving and emotional day of my life. Since that time, I was determined to return to the Church and learn as much as I could, since I had wasted so many years of my life outside of the Church.

My son is now 13 years old and is an altar boy and has been since he was 8 years old. We attend all the services we can, and today was another great moment in my life. I am among several people within our parish that bake prosphora. So earlier this morning I gathered my seals, mixing bowls and towels and when my son woke up I began teaching him how to bake prosphora. We made 6 large loaves and tomorrow we will take this offering to our priest. I must say, Patrick took to baking prosphora much faster than I. His loaves turned out wonderful. While we were preparing the dough I played a video from Holy Dormition Monastery on &#34;How to make orthodox PROSFORA. It was a great time to spend with someone you love and teach him a special part of Orthodoxy. The whole time he could also see exactly how to make and bake the Prosfora and see the Proskomedia.

If only we could motivate our youth in the church, even motivate the adults, to take part in such activities of the Church.

Father A. I am so saddened by your story, and yet this continues to happen all over this nation. People are missing out on such inspiring and moving services that the Orthodox Church offers them. A chance to be a true part of the Church and offer prayers to our most Holy Theotokos and our Lord and Saviour. To have our prayer taken to heaven upon the sweet smell of incense and receive blessings from our priest. What have we done to our Church? Have we become so Americanized that we no longer need food of the Church? No longer need to hear the Word or partake of the Mysteries? It is shameful how all of this has come about. I pray every day and night for the undivided Church. For all to come home to Orthodoxy.

Pray for me sinner

[M. Rallis]

Dear George Azar:

My own father once told me not to be disheartened by small numbers attending our Orthodox worship services. We are accompanied by the Church triumphant, and by the holy angels, and if even only two or three of us are gathered in His name, our Lord is with us! Have you not felt the special blessing that comes from taking the extra time away from our daily activities to attend Orthros, Vespers, Paraklesis, or weekday Divine Liturgy. I never lament over the few of us that are attending the “extra” services, i.e. other than Sunday Divine Liturgy, but rather pray that those not in attendance could somehow become aware of what they were missing out on, while also praying that our Lord continue to bless me to attend, despite my own unworthiness.

[M. Rallis]

Dear Owen:

I am of the opinion that the Orthodox Church’s “ institutional standards” for the “cost” of being an Orthodox Christian are to deny our self and take up our cross.

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear In Christ Michael,

Luke 10
But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, "Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!" "Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."

In the Divine liturgy we sing:

Let us who mystically represent the Cherubim and chant the thrice holy hymn unto the life creating Trinity, now lay aside all earthly care.

Then those that have chosen what is better mystically represent the Cherubim by chanting the thrice holy hymn.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord of Sabaoth: heaven and earth are full of thy glory. Hosanna in the highest! Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest!

And it is by the (grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the Love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit) that those who have chosen what is better mystically represent the Cherubim.

I leave you with love in Christ.

Matthew

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear In Christ Michael,

And it is by the &#40;grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the Love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit&#41; that those who have chosen what is better mystically represent the Cherubim.

And as you know then we can choose to recieve the most precious body and blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
Matthew

[Matthew Panchisin]

Dear In Christ Michael,

And as you know then we can choose to recieve the most precious body and blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the most important part of the liturgy and better than anything.

I don&#39;t want to say anything that could be misunderstood and I find myself going over what I have written.

In Christ,
Matthew

[Margaret Lark]

Now that I know your son is 13 years old, I would say, try not to worry too much about him. My son was 12 when we became Orthodox. He didn&#39;t serve on the altar till he was 16, but he sang in the choir right through the change in his voice &#40;and has a &#42;beautiful,&#42; true bass voice&#41;, and grew to love the services increasingly. He&#39;s 24 now, and attends services faithfully, even when nobody&#39;s home but him -- I hear about it from the folks at church. They&#39;re all so impressed with him.

One thing you might want to consider, is sending Patrick to any summer camps your Diocese or jurisdiction has. The camp my son attended has a regular early-morning feature called, &#34;Alone with God.&#34; The idea is to find some particular spot of natural beauty that speaks to you, and spend half an hour there talking over life with God. My son says that&#39;s what led him to his career in forestry -- he learned that he loves being outdoors, among the trees. But I noticed, after his first summer at camp, that he also had a deeper commitment to his faith. He actually developed a morning and evening prayer rule as a result of that experience, and is much less likely to pass on church services. &#40;However, even as a teenager, he had his priorities straight -- he never participated in any of the sports at school because they all had mandatory Sunday-morning practices. I just wish more parents would stand up to this Marxist practice of substituting sports for church!&#41;

As for the casual approach of cradle Orthodox to their faith....someone told me something once that I&#39;ve found to be very true. Cradle Orthodox may be casual about their church attendance for any number of reasons, and they may not always behave in the most Christian manner. But in a time of crisis, a cradle Orthodox will always react instinctively in an Orthodox manner, and a convert will always react instinctively in accordance with the traditions of his childhood. We have a lot to learn from cradle Orthodox about community, and the priest as the Father of the parish.

[Margaret Lark]

Responding to Michael Rallis&#39; comments about who&#39;s really present at church services: Agreed. When I directed a choir, they used always to complain about singing the Hymn of Kassiani on Great Tuesday, because &#34;no one was in church.&#34; And I would always remind them that all the &#42;important&#42; people were there: God, His Mother, the ranks of angels, the founders of the temple, and Kassiani herself. Who else did they need?!

I also served as a weekday cantor for our priest. On at least two occasions, Father served the entire Liturgy with just one other person &#34;present&#34; -- me -- and the church just felt filled to the rafters with unseen presences. It was a privilege to be at Liturgy with this particular priest, too -- he doesn&#39;t have the greatest voice, so he can&#39;t show off his singing skills; he just prays and worships, which is always easier to do when you aren&#39;t having to supervise a small army of restless altar boys, just one clueless but willing cantor.

[M.C. Steenberg]

Dear all,

The fact that today is the commemoration of the Holy Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, whose dates span &#40;this is part of the miracle&#41; AD 250-450, seems to offer a helpful reminder of what was once meant by the &#39;sacrifice&#39; demanded of those who wished to be a part of the Church.

The following might be interesting:

Summary Life of the Seven Sleepers, from the Feasts and Saints collection of the OCA &#40;USA&#41; web site (http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/August/Aug-04.html#seven)

Chardri&#39;s Anglo-Norman Life of the Seven Sleepers, in English (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/7sleepers.html)

Photograph of the cave of the Seven Sleepers (http://www.kusadasi.net/historical/sevensleepers.htm)

Iconic image of the Seven Sleepers, with details (http://www.garydonald.com/viewimage.cfm?ID=1873&xnum=1)

INXC, Matthew

[Rebecca]

I am of the opinion that the Orthodox Church’s “ institutional standards” for the “cost” of being an Orthodox Christian are to deny our self and take up our cross.

What an interesting subject to ponder.

And what an inspiration to read the lives of the seven sleepers.

Are we &#34;killed with kindness,&#34; so to speak &#40;though it is not truly kindness&#41;, in the &#39;world&#39; today, while those of our brothers and sisters in Christ were killed with the sword in those earlier days?

What a precious gift we have in the heroism of these early saints, to know these were human beings just like us, who saw God&#39;s love for them so clearly that the tortures, the painful deaths were bearable, knowing that they were experiencing this great love from the Creator of all things, said love putting everything into its true perspective.

And over a thousand years later, their lives give hope that we might see ourselves loved with this same love, and that being so loved may remind us to choose the better path, to deny ourselves the many temptatations, so readily available, but which always leave us thirsting, and which cloud our vision to God&#39;s love, which is the only thing that will quench our thirst, for that is what we were made for.

[Fr Averky]

I do not think that it is so easy to &#34;juist show up&#34; for Orthodox services. For most converts, it entails going through culture shock, feeling like a &#34;foreigner&#34; in his own country, and experienceing not being asked to participate or to help.

Happily, this is less an less the cae, but for those of us who joined many years ago, this all too often was the usual scene

And even putting that aside, to go to a Church which is not &#34;feel good &#34; in its approach, which has live entertainments, live animals for the &#34;Christmas pageant,&#34; &#34;Rock Bands,&#34; and &#34;Clown&#34; services which requires fasting, and looking at ingredients on food packaging, which requires many more hours in Church than the usual perfuntory Catholic mass &#40; although perhaps not as many as some Protestants&#41;.

It is also a struggle for many of us to celebrate Christmas, and for all of us, Pascha at a diferent date than our families-all of these things require sacrifice, willingness, and a love for God and the Church.

Just before Pascha this year, a man wrote to this forum and told us how after only one year, he and his wife found Orthodoxy to be burdensome, and hearing the lives of the saints seemed to be untenable examples for life. All of us, all of us wo came from another tradition have had to accept Traditions and practises which in our youth were simply unacceptable; how many new Orthodox have had to struggle with the veneration of the Mother of God, the saints, and icons themselves?

Yet, because we have been convinced ourselves, or been convinced that ,Orthodoxy is indeed the True Church founded by Jesus Christ, we have had to accept part and parcel all of those teachings which might seem so foreign to us. This Owen, entails far more than just showing up, and while our parishes might do more in regards to helping the poor and the homeless, still being Orthodox is not easy in light of what other Christians are expected to do. We could learn a lot from Protestant, who try very hard to express their faith in good works, for even though they might have spiritually very little, yet they do so much. One can see the real tragedy of the breaking up of the Church in 1054, and then the Protestant reforms of the mid-fifteenth century. Had the Church remained as a single entity, the very best of the two worlds East and West, would have given Christian daily life a much better balance.

I do not know about any other convert, but it took me awhile to be comfortable and at home with my new spiritual home. Now, after all these years, it is all I know, and I would have it no other way.

Fr. Averky

[Owen Jones]

I had no problem whatsoever feeling instantly at home in an Orthodox Church. There was nothing foreign about it to me at all. I instantly understood it, or had a feel for it, shall we say. I have always felt that mystical union with God was the key, not dogmatic formulations, slogans, emotional outbursts, or proofs of God, etc.
I was thrilled by one book I read -- a collection of sermons and addresses by Mathew the Poor -- and I showed it to another convert and he acted like he didn&#39;t understand a word of it! And I hear all of these arguments about the canons among Orthodox and it just doesn&#39;t concern me. I know it&#39;s important, but not THAT important.

So sometimes I think I&#39;m the only person I know who actually thinks like an Orthodox Christian! &#40;Not claiming that I live like an Orthodox Christian should -- that&#39;s a different issue!&#41;.

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ, Owen,

Tell me dear Owen, what does it feel like to be the &#34;only person I know who actually thinks like an Orthodox Christian,&#34; and how does that fit in with your usual cynicism and heavy reliance on ancient and modern philosophers? Just wondering.

Lovingly,

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Rebecca,

I am so glad to see that you have become a member! I always appreciate your thoughtful and thought -provoking responses. I look forward to reading your posts because they often contain a great deal of wisdom.

In Christ,


Fr. A.

[Owen Jones]

I exclude my wife and kids from that list. Beyond that, I know very few people. And I really don&#39;t know what most of the people in my Church think. During coffee hour we talk about golf.

[Owen Jones]

btw, it was not my intention to justify or defend my position or views or perspective as somehow normative. And I am very comfortable with being considered bohemian in my Orthodoxy. Call it misanthropic Orthodoxy.

[Fr Averky]

Owen,dear Owen,

Why, you could start an entirely new School of thought! I have to say I have never had parishioners who talked about golf. I have had some very good and pious parishioners in my life. I have had my share ot trouble makers, but for the most part, my people were simple in their approach to their Orthodoxy, and showed in so many ways how much they love their Church.

I knew that I could call on my people to band to gether and take care of the parish needs. In one parish, one extended family was my choir, my cleaning crew, my painting crew, and my parish council. In time they also were like family to me, and in time we spent many happy hours playing &#34;Trivial Pursuit,&#34; which was very popular at the time.

In all the places I have served, I have encountered cradle Orthodox, who could not have had a theological discussion with you, or knew anything about the canons, but they confessed sincerely, fasted to the best of their ability, gave cheerfully, contributed many hours of their time lovingly, and gave me support and love. I could not have asked for more.

Fr. A.

[Fr Averky]

I have tro clarify that I too felt at home right away in San Francisco at the cathedral, and the Russians there made me feel at home in a most loving manner, but the monastery was a different situation entirely.

Fr. A.

Owen the Misanthrope has a very poetic ring to it, don&#39;t you agree, Owen? I care for you and am devoted to you no matter how much you grumble and growl!

[Owen Jones]

That&#39;s why I made a point of distinguishing between thought and action. Belief and piety.

[Margaret Lark]

Father Averky wrote: &#34;And even putting that aside, to go to a Church which is not &#34;feel good &#34; in its approach, which has live entertainments, live animals for the &#34;Christmas pageant,&#34; &#34;Rock Bands,&#34; and &#34;Clown&#34; services which requires fasting, and looking at ingredients on food packaging, which requires many more hours in Church than the usual perfuntory Catholic mass &#40; although perhaps not as many as some Protestants&#41;. &#34;

Father--that&#39;s why some of us &#42;left&#42; the Catholic Church. ;-&#41; What&#39;s really sad is that even many of the young people, for whom this stuff was originated, have been leaving because they sense how silly it all is.

That aside, everything you say is what I was trying to get at in talking about the costs of becoming Orthodox. I have to say that I disagree that the Church doesn&#39;t ask anything of us -- She expects us to be active participants in our own theosis. That many don&#39;t &#42;choose&#42; to, is not unique to Orthodoxy; but in my studies of various Christian expressions, only Orthodoxy expects us to repent daily, so as to facilitate having an ongoing relationship with our Creator.

The December 1983 issue of the National Geographic referred to the Orthodox Church as &#34;the Marines of Christianity.&#34; I&#39;ve found that to be completely true.

[Margaret Lark]

Again quoting Father Averky: &#34;In all the places I have served, I have encountered cradle Orthodox, who could not have had a theological discussion with you, or knew anything about the canons, but they confessed sincerely, fasted to the best of their ability, gave cheerfully, contributed many hours of their time lovingly, and gave me support and love.&#34;

And when I am tempted to judge my fellow Orthodox Christians, this is the kind of thing I try to keep in mind. They may not know the theology, and they may not be involved in Social Activism. But they know how to live this life. If &#34;a theologian is one who prays,&#34; then these people can run rings around those of us with just &#34;book larnin&#39;.&#34;

[Rebecca]

Fr. A,

Thanks for your kind words...I was just expanding on what I thought Michael was saying since I thought he made a good point http://www.monachos.net/mb/clipart/happy.gif

I actually thought it was really something to read about the 7 sleepers. I&#39;d never read the story before. Fairly recent movie &#40;Highlander series&#41; actually had a story about warriors dug out of cave after hundreds of years and found alive. Plot of that movie can&#39;t hold a candle to the hagiography though.

[Rebecca]

so as not to be misunderstood, I am not questioning truth of the hagiography of the 7 sleepers, just finding it ironic how hollywood ended up twisting the events &#40;whether intentional or not&#41; in a movie plot.

[Fr Averky]

Rebecca,

I have always loved the story of the Seven Holy Sleepers of Ephesus. I also love the moving story of the Seventy Martyrs of Sebaste &#40; March 9&#41;.
Such lives are inspirations for us, although they might seem so removed from us. God can do as He wishes and His grace fills the hearts of his martyric champions with fearlessness. How beautiful the holy youths must have looked when found, and then again, when they reposed for the final time.

Again, Rebecca, it is good to see that you have become a member.

Fr. A.