Jehovah's Witnessess

[Andonis]

Hi All,

in my work place i have a client whom is a Jehova's witness although he has never said that he is. we often have very docile discussions about God, and i've never felt uncomfortable around him. in fact on many points we appear to agree.

the other day he gave me one of those Watch Tower books they distribute, and said that i could read it if i had spare time, being careful not to appear too pushy. i did not feel threatened by this and took the book, as i feel that i am well versed enough in orthodoxy not to be mislead.

i flicked through it, and to be honest found it difficult to make heads or tails of it. it went into great detail about certain things (mainly old testament stories) never conveying a clear message. the last chapter talked about a the Kingdom of God as being an earthly paradise where the righteous will live and work in peace, have houses and the jobs they want and be completely fulfilled after judgement day. at this point i became quite bored and generally repulsed by what i read, as it clearly stood against our orthodox beleifs and threw it in the bin.

i guess my question is, am i making a mistake by being curious about faiths which i clearly know are heretical? is this sinning against God? i feel as an orthodox Christian it is important for me to know what heresies teach as it makes me a stronger defender of my faith.

opinions welcome...

[cale]

I liked the part about the bin.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Andonis,

I don't think it's wrong to learn accurately what the heretics think, believe, and teach. Many of the Fathers have done the same so that they could give accurate defense of the Truth. It also gives you credibility in the discussion to have listened patiently to what the other side had to present. They are then honor bound to give you equal time. Tell your co-worker how you re-acted to the material.

Richard

[Richard McBride]

Dear Richard L:

In your message #130 to Adonis, you said:

"I don't think it's wrong to learn accurately what the heretics think, believe, and teach. Many of the Fathers have done the same so that they could give accurate defense of the Truth. It also gives you credibility in the discussion to have listened patiently to what the other side had to present. They are then honor bound to give you equal time. Tell your co-worker how you re-acted to the material. "

Will you indulge a too tedious response, on my part, to implications in your message?

It is not so much that Adonis will care what I think of these issues, but there is a general problem in your otherwise correct assumptions above. For I believe there are two different sets of values involved. In the academic realm the values which support your concerns (stated above) are not only valid, but seemingly necessary. But for a different general realm, that of Orthodox worshipers, those same systems becomes harmful. In fact, they would only penetrate Orthodoxy at all in Theology -- and the Fathers are specific in having only those Orthodox who have purified their hearts enter into Theological speculations at this level of discerning truth.

So, when you say, that you think it is not "wrong to learn accurately what the heretics think, believe, and teach", this should only be the case for Theologians. For normal Orthodox, they should not concern themselves so much with the niceties of heretical thinking at all, as they should with the state of one's own relationship to God -- that is, the state of one's own struggle toward purity.

In speaking of the four types of discourses which the Lord uses (commandments, doctrines, threats and promises), Saint Maximos the Confessor lays out the regimen which allows one to study such discourses:

"When the intellect practices the virtues correctly, it advances in moral understanding. When it practices contemplation it advances in spiritual knowledge. The first leads the spiritual contestant to discriminate between virtue and vice; the second leads the participant to the inner qualiteis of incorporeal and corporeal things. Finally, the intellect is granted the grace of theology when, carried on wings of love beyond these two former stages, it is taken up into God and with teh help of the Holy Spirit discerns -- as far as possible for the human intellect -- the qualities of God."
.......................Philokalia; vol. II; p.69

Only in the love which Orthodox carry equally for all the other children, should they listen, "patiently to what the other side had to present" -- NOT in terms of studying the heresies involved. Concerns for one's "credibility" are irrelevant, except where God is concerned. For "truth" at this level of disputation is based upon many other things which not only do not clarify the heart, they will lead the heart into argument and into heresy itself.

What you present, Richard, as an academic bag of values, only seeps down to the level of the street as new age diversities, and other half baked notions. At this level, they become mere jingoes and slogans at best, and great productive energies which the enemy uses against us, at worst.

I suspect you will ask, Richard, how is one supposed to avoid these lethal heresies and "give accurate defense of the Truth" unless one engage in such arguments. But it is precisely by engaging in these pointless arguments, where one presumes to a degree of discernemtn sufficient to formulate truth -- it is in these prideful assumptions of one's own intelligence, that the error occurs. The whole process of such disputations is wrong. It is contrary to the values which Orthodox hold, which guide them towrad the light, not disputation.

There is much else to be said in favor of avoiding these devices for academics, but that would require arguments too tedious even for me.

I hope I have been able to present this opposing view, Richard, without causing you to resent my interference. For there is truly a lesson for Orthodox in specifically avoiding the values you espouse.

richard mcb

[John Kapetan]

Blessed in the Lord, Richard M:

From the discourse you gave in post 191; is it ALWAYS better for a non-theologian (like myself) to avoid religious disputes with heretics even when requested for an opinion, or questioned specifically by them as much as possible, if not ALTOGETHER? Rather than think we can convert the entire world with our limited book learning?

In Christ,

John K

[Richard Leigh]

"Will you indulge a too tedious response, on my part, to implications in your message?" ---richard mcb

Dear Richard M,

Please hear this in the sincerity in which it is intended: there is nothing fascecious in this post.

I am more than delighted at your response, and that you responded at all. In fact, I covet the correction. Well aware that I was in no position to be a blind guide to the sighted, I was hesitant to make any comment to Andonis in the first place, yet doing so, was careful to state my position as my own personal opinion. I overcame my hesitancy on the basis of my own experience, of both Christianity and Jehovah's Witnessism, among the followers of which were my Aunt and cousins, as I mentioned in another post on a different thread.

Regarding this a "discussion board" I fully expected and hoped an Orthodox statement of the case (pro or con ) to be made, and con is what I expected, for exactly the reasons you gave.

Since Andonis asked for comment, I hope he understands, as do you, that I am not Orthodox (I'm Lutheran, with, I hope, Orthodocizing tendencies) and that mine was not from Orthodoxy per se while yours was. Perhaps it's none of my business, but I would hope, as a result, that he would care what you think regarding this.

Yes, I am aware that what I have to offer is accademic baggage, and I realize the potential for harm in exercising the unpurified, unenlightened nous, which is what the word "intellect" translates in the Philokalia you quoted, and that by "theologian" you mean someone who has "...reached theoria (vision of God)," to quote Archimandrite Hierotheos Vlacos' The Illness and Cure of the Soul in the Orthodox Tradition as translated by Effie Mavromichali, (1993) p. 27. Thus, as you say "the ordinary Orthodox" is to mind his own relationship with God or participation in the Gace He gives, as offered through the Church. That is also why warnings are even heard regarding even reading the Philokalia, or practicing the prayer of the heart, or speaking of the Trinity at all to the "ordinary Orthodox" which, I can imagine can be overwhelminglly intimidating to "the unenlightened. intellects."

Thus, IMO, if one remains in the church, and especially has a Spiritual father, minds one's own faith, and prays for discernment, one can "exercise" one's gift(discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit, according to St. Paul in 1 Corinthians). I would think grace would be given for this (not to worry, I don't mean to send anyone our "on their own," counseling rather for spiritual back-up force in one's Orhodox mentor).

I believe it is analogous to life. God creates an imune system in the body partly by means of the bacteria and whatever other challenges to life and health exist in the environment. An overprotective parent can deny one's child one of the ingredients to a healthy imune system by keeping his environment germ-free. Likewise, exercise is part of what is behind the growth of muscles and bones, all provided that nothing is given or done in excess, and all is done with appropriate and loving guidance.

I believe that moral development follows apace, that exposure of anyone mature enough to handle it to falsehood by a wise and spirutually strong parent who can shine the light of truth on it is a good practice. And, of course, we all have our elders.

"I hope I have been able to present this opposing view, Richard, without causing you to resent my interference. For there is truly a lesson for Orthodox in specifically avoiding the values you espouse."

Well,
1) "opposing view"? More apparent than real, I hope,
2) "interference"? This is a discussion to which I thought we were all invited.
3) "the values" I "espouse"? (return to # 1)

Yours in Christ,

Richard L,

P.s., had I not lived the values I espoused I wouldn't have gotten this close to Orthodoxy, and may I never dislodge anyone from the Orthodox path. ---R

[Richard McBride]

Beloved of the Lord, John;

I know you know the anwers to your questions, so I assume you offer them for the benefit of others. In that light, you asked of me:

>From the discourse you gave in post 191;
is it ALWAYS better for a non-theologian (like myself) to avoid religious disputes with heretics even when requested for an opinion,
Rather than think we can convert the entire world with our limited book learning?

1. "ALWAYS"

Dear John, I know you are aware of this point, but since you use this term aimed at me. I must say that I know nothing of "always"; such absolutes I may dream of, but only because the Lord existed before the world was.

2. "...better for a non-theologian (like myself) to avoid religious disputes with heretics..."

Certainly for me, John, is very nearly 'always' better "to avoid religious disputes with heretics...";
it is easy to anticipate the situation: When clever heretics wish to draw a believer into disputation, they have often been drinking; very quickly it will become clear that they only listen to their 'opponent's' words in order to refute them; and thus it is not only foolish for the 'opponent' to imagine that they may 'convert' the aggressive heretic, but it is often harmful to the opponent or to those who may be listening;
the exception should be when the Paraclete is funding the believer's thinking, and thus, when she/he have been blessed with the Holy task of furthering the Lord's work;
AND what a blessing that is;
BUT often it will be the demons who are pushing one into demonic jousting;
how to know the difference?

This is where the believer should be advanced in purifying her/his heart; when a believer has attained the state described by Saint Maximos [re: my post #191], wherein "The reward of self-control is dispassion, and the reward of faith is spiritual knowledge", then, presumably, in this state one knows when the Paraclete is doing the urging, versus the enemy working with one's own vain imaginations and prideful presumptions.
If one is unsure of this urging, it is safer to withdraw from any dispute. But if then the Paraclete urges ever more strongly to join in the dispute, it will be because there is true purpose, the Lord's purpose, in doing so; thus, the believer goes into battle well armed and having no fear. Be aware, however, that many children take the presumption of this permission far too easily!
If the Paraclete does not fill one with His presence, with the sense of His purpose, then back off, for there is far greater danger in mistaking one's own prideful responses as the permission to proceed -- for that is when one is entirely naked and unprotected. Only harm may result and no good may come of it.

Often, uncertainty over these matters is itself the Paraclete's soft warning to hearts, such as mine, which are still too hardened to actually know the will of God.

3. "even when requested for an opinion, or questioned specifically by them as much as possible, if not ALTOGETHER?"

The persistence of a heretic in questioning, may indeed be the sign from the Paraclete that this person has been led to one's self for some small degree of enlightening. But with our perverted egos, with our deaf ears and hard hearts, how much more likely is it that one merely, and too easily assumes [as the demons hope], that one has been chosen to be the Hand of God? Let the pompousness of such a presumption be a warning to all those who feel so inclined; but if the Paraclete persists, then do as suggested above.

When we are newly converted, we respond to the Truth so joyfully, that we want the whole world to know this which has been kept secret from us. But have we not noticed how the evangelists too respond in this way? And have we not noticed that in their partial truths, how they go out in error to convert the Russians, the Orthodox, and other Christians who are already far above them on the Ladder?
For those who are so inclined this way, and who do not heed the advice of Saint Maximos (above), I suggest they carry their partial truths into the camps of Islam, which are so rife with half-truths and truly false words. They may be able to respond profitably to partial truths.

richard

[Richard McBride]

Dear Richard L:

Of the many good things you mentioned in your post [#132], I respond to these two only. You said:

"An overprotective parent can deny one's child one of the ingredients to a healthy imune system by keeping his environment germ-free."

It is always true that a parent, in their protectiveness, may be guilty of denying to a child something which was actually a good. All parents have done something like this; and each one wishes that were not the case.
But what is the alternative? It is to do the least, or nothing. I have known a couple of large families "reared" in this fashion, and have been surprised that so few disasters befell those children. In deed, I am not at all clear that disasters may not strike the overly protected as frequently as the unprotected.

But in either case, that children survive at all is due entirely to the will of the Lord.

I respond to this great knowledge by feeling that I should still do my part; that the Lord has entrusted me with a degree of wealth and it is up to me to try to become the wise and trusted servant -- not the foolish servant. I take this responsibility to mean that the children of my wealth should be reared in fear of the Lord, and that they should be given the best example of how the religious purpose of our ethics may play themselves out -- again, that is by example.

Given these beliefs [which I have not always held] I think it is better to err on the side of earnest over-protectiveness, exercised in the fear of the Lord, then it is to err on the side of lack of concern and inaction.



"P.s., had I not lived the values I espoused I wouldn't have gotten this close to Orthodoxy, and may I never dislodge anyone from the Orthodox path. ---R "

I appreciate what you say here, Richard, and I thank you for your candor. I will pray for you: That the Lord will strongly urge you toward that goal which he has in mind for you -- that He may give you the strength, wisdom and discernment to follow that goal.

richard mcb

[Richard Leigh]

Richard M

Well said, and thank you.

Richard L

[Fr Averky]

Dear Mr. McBride,

Forgive me, while I very much respect your education and some of your posts have been very good, at the same time, I am amazed that you wish to turn every discussion into an intellectual excersise, with almost not even a hint of viewing matters with a spiritual view. You say that you are Orthodox, but you delight in living in the realm of the mind in a manner which the Fathers of the Church shunned. The average Orthodox Christian - the average person, does not spend time in that realm in which you seem to exist. Most people are struggling to feed and clothe their children, keep a roof over their heads, and are struggling to save themselves with what little spiritually they receive from their average parish priest, who has not been given much spiritual or moral authority by his bishop, spends all too much time going from this meeting to that basket ball tournament to that planning for next year's festival and is constantly being hemmed in by his parish council. There are so many wonderful Orthodox priests who are almost not allowed to excersise that spiritual gift which has been given to them.

The average Orthodx Christian layman is not prepared to discuss for three weeks the concept of "Christian Aesthetics," it is just enough for him to learn to be humble, to keep the fasts, to say his daily prayers, to be repentent for his sins to struggle for salvation. While I appreciate the opinions of concerned and educated laymen, I have warned more than a few privately, and will do so now publically that if by one's word we mislead or cause confusion to another, we will answer for it on the Dread Day of Judgement. It is the folly of the West to think that God can be found by discsussion, writing, thinking, considering, pondering, posturing, researching, quoting, authoring, presenting, idealizing, and so on, completely overlooking the message of the Gospels which is quite simple.

When a person like Adonis, who is a most sincere young man, asks a question, he needs moral and spiritual support, not long-winded intellectual posturing. This is precisely why the Fathers of the Church over all the centuries have warned that salvation cannot be gained in the mind. We converts, bound with our Marley''s chains of Western thought and philosphy cannot seem to look at anything with spiritual eyes, but immediately want to prove, with all our education and "book knowledge", how much we know, when in the end, we only show that we know nothing about the essence of Orthodoxy at all.

Let us rather support each other with genuine Christian love and concern, prayers, moral support, and educating by giving simple but loving answers, not intellectual diatribes which are but means to show off our worldy knowledge.

Father Averky

[Fr Averky]

Dear in Christ Adonis,

My dear young man, you seem to jump from pitfall to pitfall. what always saves you is that you have a beautiful simple faith, and in the end your heart and your good soul leads you back to safety again.

In your case, in regards to learning about the teachings of heretics, it might be just another source of temptation for you. Not wishing to "put you down," I have remarked to you in other threads, which piqued your pride somewhat, that you need to become much more knowledgeable about your own Orthodox Faith, and not in the intellectual manner about which I have complained to others. When people do not know enough about their Faith, they can be overwhelmed by others even though they present false and heretical teachings. Better to know your Orthodoxy well, and save yourself. At the same time, if you know your Orthodxy well, you can counter the false claims of the heretics and perhaps even show them their folly. At any rate -study your Orthodoxy!

I would suggest that you read some of the fine but simply written books like "These Are The Sacraments" by Fr. Anthony Coniaris, "Dogmatic Theology" by Fr. Michael Pomazansky, and the writings of Fr. Philotheos Vlahos. Read the Lives of the Saints, for in them you will see how ordinary people like you and me became martyrs and confessors, missionaries and teachers, filled with the strength and knowledge given to them by the Holy Spirit. As I said to some people who wish to jump into the Philokalia when they don't even know how to say their prayers or have never been to confession, or have never spoken at length with a tried monk or good spiritual father, they are heading for trouble. One can pick up and read any book on the shelf - he can make an entire life's study of Christianity, and in the end lose his soul because he never bothered to struggle and to repent for his sins. On the day of Judgement, he will stand on his pile of books and quote his ideas, but Christ will not even know who he is.

You and I have to view ourselves as simple people, for it was to the simple people like ourselves that our Saviour gave His attention. He could have spent time with the Stoic Philosphers of the time, or could have spoken to all the wise and educated men of the Age, discussing Plato and Aristotle and all the great thinkers of the ancient world. He did not sit in the halls of the learned, He did not leave behind a complex philosphical system to be read over and studied by scholars over the centuries: no, He said things like. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth," "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light.," "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: I desire not sacrifice, but mercy, for I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." He was a man without a place to lay His head, he ate with sinners and tax collectors, he did not discuss people's problems with them -He healed them and forgave them their sins, He loved them. His was the fullnes of Wisdon and knowledge; He knew the world well, for He had created it. But He was not of the World - He saw its cruelty and treachery and suffered because of it; He was "meek and gentle of heart."

The problem, dear Adonis, is that modern man does not realize how very sad he is; because of all his advances in medicine, education and technology, "theology," and "thought," he feels that since he has "solved" so many problems, he will continue to do so. He does not see the spiritual darkness in which he dwells, how very spiritually sick he is and because of his blindness and pride, he does not seek healing. God out of His goodness has provided man with the intellectual capacity to learned to to solve problems - but man can never think that he has accomplished anything on his own - every good thing comes from God's mercy.

A person like you, on the other hand, can sense when something is not quite right. In another thread you openly confessed to having lived with a young woman to whom you were not married. Even though you loved her, and you miss her very much, still, your Christian conscience would not you live in such a sinful manner. This is an action of Divine Wisdom, which brought you to desire to live in Truth. To do this, you did not come to the painful decision to end the relationship by an action of the mind, but by a reaction to moral truth in your heart and soul. On another thread, you spoke of your shame and fear at having to bare your soul before a priest, but when given assurance that the priest would be but a witness and that it is Christ Himself who hears and forgives, again you humbled yourself and went to confession and spoke of the relief and joy it had given to you it to this community. For this I respect you Adonis - you can at times be foolish, and you fall as each of us does, but you openly discuss it with others, humbly seeking advice and help. This the real value of Monachos - when people see each other in pain and reach out and give a loving helping hand. When you do fall, you have the moral strength to pick yourself up again and be victorious. This is what the Christian life is about, and this is not learned in books or dicussions, or intellectual circles - it is a matter of the heart, and it is a matter of a soul longing for God. This is what is pleasing to God. The Prophet David says this ever so clearly when he states "the sacrifice acceptable to God is a contrite and broken heart." He did not say that salvation is gained by this or that theory, this study, that discussion, or having a Master's degree or Doctorate. Many years ago, we had a very intelligent young man who had made an exhaustive study of the Canons and Apostolic Fathers, along with liturgics and Church history. He could give almost encyclopeadic answers to very simple questions. One summer evening after night prayers, he walked out with the bishop from the church. Being only about fifteen feet ahead of them I could clearly hear their conversation. The young man said to the bishop, "Your Grace, I have decide that I would like to stay here and become one of your monks." The bishop gently replied, "Dear______, you will never be a monk, not here, not in any monastery, for you did not come here to learn, but to teach."

Adonis, the path ahead of you is filled with many dangers, but Adonis, if you can keep up your courage to do battle, you will be a true soldier of Christ! Continue to do as you have done - be humble, be simple, seek God's forgiveness, and He will save you. It is I who ask your prayers before the throne of God.

Your constant well-wisher,

Father Averky

[Richard McBride]

Monochos: Father Averky:

I more than deserve your chastisements, Father. But I am confused by that to which you refer. Can you tell me more precisely where I am at fault so that I may correct it? Is it simply my too academic way of writing? I know it is stiff; and seems as posturing to you. But I have been teaching in the university longer than you have been a priest, and it is my way of organizing thougthts. Forgive me.

You say:
"Most people are struggling to feed and clothe their children, keep a roof over their heads, and are struggling to save themselves with what little spiritually they receive from their average parish priest.."

I am unable to see where I am at cross purposes with what you say here. I have children of my own; I and my wife have reared them. And while I have not done this at all in the way God would have preferred, you cannot know about that. Did I say something which contradicts your idea of rearing children?

As for the problems with priests and bishops, I leave that to your knowledge of such things.

Perhaps, your concern lies in:
"The average Orthodx Christian layman is not prepared to discuss for three weeks the concept of "Christian Aesthetics,"
and thus, I should refrain from the aesthetic discussions? Is that my failure? If so, I shall stop discussing aesthetics. It would not surprise me if the Lord were not in agreement with you on this.
..............................

On second thought, I doubt it will do any good to continue with anymore explanations.
I thank you Father for being concerned enough to admonish me. I deserve far more than your kind but frustrated words. God forbid that I should lead anyone astray. He knows how I have tried for decades to bring better understanding to hundreds of students.

I will pray tonight Father for my own better understanding of your concern. Also, I will pray that my poor words have not led you astray, or embarrassed you -- or anyone else who would come unto the Lord. I am truly sorry for the problems I have caused you. And even if you spoke hastily, your intuition on my failures was correct. Please do not rescend your admonishments. They are true and come from the Holy Spirit, else He would not have allowed your remarks. You must not, therefore, be doubleminded.

richard mcb

[Fr Averky]

Mr. McBride and Mr. Leigh,

Please take the time to read my post to you ( Mr. McBride) and the following one to Adonis. Again.

I have no doubts that you are men of good will, and you Mr leigh have wonderful insights for one who is not Orthodox, but my main point is that the Truth is not a philoshophical or intellectual position: the Truth is a Person, and that Person, that Truth, is Jesus Christ, and you are seeking truth in all of the wrong places. I can appreciate your educational backgrounds - it is very apparent. I have in no way any claim to such education, but dear sirs, I beg you, I adjure you - look into your hearts and souls and there you will find all that you seek. Being a "student," as Mr. Leigh describes himself, or seeking to find truths in "aesthetics," ( for example) is , in the end, simply not salvific.
This looking into our hearts and finding God there has to be the aim of all of our lives.

When you asked me initially about aesthetics and I gave you a rather simplistic answer by describing my life in the monastery and the beauty of the early moring Liturgy. It was a real answer, but again, the game of mental badminton continued, no one was interested in hearing about the sense of Grace that one has in the early morning when the Liturgy unfolds, and Salvation has come to earth, the restoration of true Spiritual Beauty that is experienced, the taste of Paradise that one is given, the Peace that is granted to the soul longing for God, the cool Breeze which calms the heat of the passions, the garlands of Prayer which sends spiritual fragrance to the whole world, - no one even heard, for they were too busy about the "game," a game in which there are ony losers.

I respect young Adonis, because he is our Christian "Everyman," loving, sinning, falling, seeking, but always his soul is longing for God. We can learn from him ( and do not get puffed up with pride young man!) in that he sees his world out of Orthodox Christian eyes, something converts and non-Orthodox will never fully grasp. We are grafted to the Vine, and as such we have to come with simple hearts, willing to learn, not to teach -we really have little to offer. It is by our love that we will be judged. Forgive me, I know that at times I sound harsh and intolerant, but these endless babblings in some of the threads are soul- numbing and soul-deadening. Back and forth, back and forth, quote after quote, this author, that philosopher, all in a silly and deadly game of "Let me prove that I am right," and in the end, what has anyone gained? Has anyone gotten any closer to saving his soul? We have to struggle with all our strength to free ourselves from the chains of our own thoughts and considerations and humbly look to Christ; we have learn to look at all of life in its realities with Spiritual Eyes. There is no "order," or "logic" to Christ's Truth; the Portugese have a saying: "God writes straight with crooked lines." As long as we are captivated by the mind and in proving our intellectual worth, we will remain in spiritual darkness. I can really say no more... Either you can "hear" what I am saying, or you cannot. Again, forgive me.

Father Averky

[Andonis]

hello all,

Dear father Averky, i will try not to become puffed up with pride, though i will admit that your words move me deeply. i feel that the way in which you describe me, the sweat and tears that i shed in search of the Lord, likewise the Lord has not forsaken me and constantly presents himself to me. Quenching my thirst for truth, and allowing me to feel his energies surge through my body that is his love.

many times i have sought to try understand God through the trappings of the mind and failed. my pride often interfered not letting me listen to the truth he imprinted in my heart, and i suffered for this. ever since i began to acknowledge and live what lies in my heart, i feel my relationship with the Lord grow stronger.
i feel that he constantly yearns for me to be saved, providing me with light when i need it most.

i am indebted to you all for taking the time to share with me your wisdom.
God bless you all...

Andonis

[John Wilson]

Andonis, did you receive my email to you a couple of weeks ago? It was sent through the address in your profile here and I haven't checked to see if it is the same as the return address in the email you sent me so long ago.

When will you be arriving in Greece? Do you have accomodation arranged for the days you will not be on Mt. Athos? I was hoping that we might be able to arrange a little get together with Effie while you are here.

John.

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father Averky,

I know how confusing it is when two persons on an electronic discussion list have the same Christian Name. For that reason, on this board occupied as well by Mr. McBride, I have tried to remember to sign off with my last initial. In future I will initial my Christian with my surname in full in such circumstances.

I believe the vitriol you directed at him was mine, though he refuses to let you take it back.

If you'll read our (McBride's and my) public dialogue over Andonis' question, you will quickly see that it was not Mr. McBride, but I, the Protestant who (at least apparently) fostered "the desirability" to know what the heretics are teaching so as to be able to refute them, as a Protestant might well be expected to do. McBride gently and effectively corrected that position for the list, but of course also for me personally, which correction I accepted.

As a matter of fact, the issue was pretty much closed, with McBride stating the very and Orthodox position you describe.

The problem here is that this is an Orthodox discussion list, and a discussion calls for opinions, one of the very things that interfere with the nous, or its purification. As Hierotheos Vlachos says in his The Illness and Cure of the Soul in the Orthodox Tradition "St Gregory teaches that man's soul is divided into the nous, phantasy, opinion, intellect and the sense." Here, we'll have to ask Effie if she has the Greek original to this book to learn what word is being translated "intellect" here, it is not "nous" as it is in Palmer's et al. Philokalia. To go on with the quotation: "Man, who is the recapitulation of all creation, consists of nous and sense. Between the nous and the sense there lies phantasy, opinion and intellect. The nous is the center of the soul, the eye of the soul. The sense is the non-rational power of the soul, which knows and feels the physical things....Opinion--the idea we have about various things, about people and objects-- is begotten from phantasy. Intellect is the rational power of the soul, which formulates the opinion we have about every issue."

So, to participate on a list such as this will always invite the kind of critique you (and R. McBride inveighed).

Respectfully yours,

R. Leigh

P.s., Dear Effie, do you have access to Archimandrite Hierotheos Vlachos&#39; <font face="symbol">Yuciki Asqenia kai Igia</font>? If so, what is the Greek word translated &#34;intellect&#34; on p.126 of the English ed.? Thanks. --R.L.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

I do have to agree that what I had to say in my response could be considered tantamount to &#34;censorship,&#34; however, I had been following some of the threads and simply lost patience with them. As I said, I can very much sense that both you and Mr. McBride are not only well-educated, you are kind, loving, and well-meaning. I certainly have not the right to say that you cannot express your ideas, but I do, as Mr. McBride pointed out, get a bit frustrated, when the wonderful knowledge that the two of you have could be used in really spiritual ways. Obviously you have both read the Philokalia and have gotten good out of it; obviously you are both aware of and have read the Fathers and other spiritual authors -what I am suggesting here is that you take that wonderful knowledge that you have accumulated and make use of it for your personal salvation, rather limiting the knowledge God has poured into you to stay only in the mind. In your quote, you state &#34;Intellect is the rational power of the soul.&#34; It does not say rational power of the &#34;mind,&#34; but of the &#34;soul.&#34; And this, dear gentlemen, has been my frustration - that you and others Like Owen Jones have wonderful gifts; use all that knowledge for your own salvation, and for the good influence upon the souls of others, rather than simply arguing the point, proving how much you know academically about the subject.

In so many ways, you have much more to offer than I do. I can only say what I say from the limitations of my monastic existence and experiences. Thus, my reaction has been, not condemning a &#34;academic&#34; way of writing, but the lack of combining the riches of such a good education and fine mind with simple piety and belief and trust in God. Look at St. John Chysostom, a trained orator and highly educated man. Taking the training he had received in oratory and combining it with his vast spiritual knowledge, he was able to produce an astonishing amount of sermons and written works which to this day are read and researched, but most importantly, continue to mold the minds and souls of sincere Orthodox Christians.

I know that many times I might sound harsh and intolerant, but to me, the souls and salvation of each and every one of you is important to me. Of course there should be discussions of soul-saving topics at every level, but I still maintain, that discussions for the sake of intellectual bantering produces very little, and in reading some of them over, if just the slightest spiritual view of the discussion might have been raised, then the discussion would have been very worthwhile for all; for those involved in the discussion, but especially for those of us who could learn so much from educated men like the two of you and Owen Jones. Please do not think that I acted out of haste or anger, but know that I read the posts on other threads for about a month before I decided to say something. In the end, just as to my concerns in regards to saying the Jesus Prayer, reading the Philokalia, or discusssing various topics, I can only proffer my thoughts and reactions from the years I have spent in my particualar life. I do not have all the answers, it is quite apparent that I am weak and passionate-but my greatest &#34;passion&#34; on Monachos is to at least point out how important it is to try to view all of life and its occurences with a spiritual view, and to be desirous of the salvation of all of you. Blessed Augustine says: &#34;To love another person in the highest sense of the word, is to wish for him eternal possession of God, and to lead him to it.&#34; This, my dear Brothers and Sisters is my aim and my heart&#39;s desire for each and every one of you - that you reach Heaven. From the perspective of my small world, I see much, have learned much, and have come to love much more, having had the joy of knowing all of you as I do in the community. So, when you feel that I am chastizing you, be aware that I might see things just a little differently because my whole existence is constant spiritual struggle. This very exhausting, because there is no rest from it, and it includes not only all my physical ailments, but patiently bearing with the unkindness and lack of understanding of others, of having constantly before me my own sins and failings, my need to deal with others in the brotherhood with whom I have little in common, dealing with the problems of many others, and doing my daily tasks of work, prayer and church services. One would have to live our life to understand its intensity, for spiritual warfare never ceases, and the attacks came come in waves, or stealthily, or ever so quietly, or with a huge blow-up, leaving one to be constantly on the alert. It never ceases, day or night, all year round. Yet, from all of this, one gains amazing perspectives about what is going on in given situations, which while helpful, is at times very painful.

Dear Mr. McBride, may God help you on your path to salvation. Take all the wonderful gifts you ve been given by your education and let them descend into your heart, and you will sense within yourself an amazing difference. this I promise you. By all means continue the high-level questions that you have offered, but let me lovingly suggest that you simply interject humility into them and the response and understanding and the value of the conversation will be much enhanced. I see that the Holy Spirit is important to you - may He fill your good heart and inspire you to help others with your fine mind. Richard Leigh, your insights amaze me, I can only pray... Owen, you are a diamond in the &#34;very&#34; rough!

Father Averky

[Richard McBride]

monochos: Jehova Witness: Cooling the heated debate

Dear Richard L [re: your #134]

With the strong opinions you hold, and with all the hard won ammunition to back them up, I am convinced that your resolution of the various notions flying about us has been by far the most successful. You have most wisely come into the foray with your eyes and heart open, and I feel that you are benefiting more than the rest of us.

So, please, do not think that I &#34;inveigh&#34; at all -- or, in the least -- against your position. Your understanding is heads and shoulders above my knowledge of the theologies involved. I may only point to certain small corrections in the course of your thinking, and if they are seen in a productive light, then I feel we are both rewarded. But if not, I do not think either of us looses. For even when your judgments are contrary to mine, I am learning from you.

Also, I applaud you for your kind response to Father Averky. I wish I had been able to be so level headed -- but alas, I still have times when I respond like the sailor I used to be. The Lord is having difficulty removing these rough edges.

Whether or not those issus were the most important in your message, there is something you brought up which is far more in keeping with the intentions of Monochos. It is your persistence in leading us to Hierotheos Vlachos&#39; development of noos or nous. That quotation you submitted is a lovely example of not only the problems with translation, but with the assumption of old Greek philosohical notions caught up in the way the Father&#39;s transmitted their new message of the Word, and then in the way we receive it.

Not the least of the problems here is that English, with its greater vocabulary &#40;6 times that of French&#41;, is potentially a more precise language. Its advantage lies in its precision, while Greek is potentially more expressive and subtle -- being able to develop many more meanings between meanings.

Now, this is not to &#34;inveigh&#34; against the beautiful use which has been made of this list by those who have shared with us their problems and insights. But it is to suggest that there is a place for that which you are suggesting, Richard, even as you mentioned to Father Averky. Surely, there is room for both.

I look forward with interest to an expansion of the nous problem -- and it is a problem. The difficulty in treating it as mere &#39;intelligence&#39; has been at least a little frustrating to the Palmer, Sherrard, Ware team.

richard mcb

[Andonis]

Hi John Wilson,

i will be in Greece as of next week. i did not get your email because my account was de activated. i have re activated it so we can keep in touch from there and we can exchange numbers when i get to Greece. it would be great to catch up with you and Effie. i am planning to be in the North of Greece, probably around the second week of July, but when i get there i will be able to give you a precise date.

look forward to meeting you all...

Andonis

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Richard M.

I repent in dust and ashes and blush the color of Peter&#39;s sword! I retract &#34;inveigh&#34; as far as your comments are concerned, please forgive me!

Yes, your course corrections are valuable to me and I certainly appreciate all of them.

I was very happy to stumble on Vlachos and the volume I mention brought about a great clarity in &#34;listening&#34; to the fathers, and hearing them properly. For example, I once thought the use of &#34;therapeutic&#34; terminology, beginning, I think, from Irenaeus, was metaphor only. I have come to see otherwise. I hope Father Averky, who has been living the therapeutic method which is Orthodoxy can appreciate that I am aware of it, if not as much as perhaps he thinks I should, but aware of it I am.

Perhaps we should start a new thread on this &#34;nous&#34; topic &#40;I don&#39;t know how threads are started here, I just &#34;respond&#34; to what comes&#41;. English has a great facility to adopt loan words, which I think acounts for its large vocabulary, at least in part. It has been suggested that &#34;nous&#34; be taken in as one, especially since there is no proper word to translate it yet. I apprecciate the fact that Palmer et al. are consistent in their translation of it and supply such a marvelous glassary in the Philokalia&#39;s appendix.

And finally, let iron sharpen iron. It is a good thing. I apprecate all the help you give me.

Thanks,

R. Leigh &#40;which rhymes with &#34;tree&#34;! ---LOL, you know my name!&#41;

[Fr Averky]

Dear Adonis,

Again, I wish you a blessed journey, and I am delighted to think that you will have the possibility to meet up with John Wilson and Effie, two of the more mature, level-headed and spiritually serious members of this community. I would be happy if you could keep in touch with me if you can, for I would like to know how your travels are progressing.

To the others, I wish them well in their games...

Father Averky

[Effie Ganatsios]

Richard, I don&#39;t have this book although I did download parts of the English version from Archimandrite Hierotheos Vlachos&#39; site.

A couple of months ago I wanted to telephone and order the book in English from the convent that distributes his books but it was Easter and I didn&#39;t want to disturb the nuns. Thanks for reminding me of this - I had forgotten that I meant to order this book. What I have read so far is very interesting.

Sorry, I can&#39;t help with the translation. The only thing I can say is that the word &#34;nous&#34; is the intellect.

[John Wilson]

two of the more mature, level-headed and spiritually serious members of this community

Thank you for your generous words Father, I only wish I could live up to them. I merely struggle to keep myself from posting when I have nothing of benefit to add, as I am usually an incessant talker who rarely considers whether others actually wish to listen. My poor wife, what she has to put up with. God truly blessed me when He gave me such a patient companion.

John

[Charalambos Andrew Geo]

Hello every one,
i am pondering if that is the correct word or more better said concerned about a friend of mine, he is Greek, is orthodox in a way God knows i say this as i would feel slightly wrong in saying &#34;by name only&#34; cause God has his personal relationship with him even though i may not be aware of it, and i think he has not really been to church a lot and when i last saw him about 2-3 weeks ago, he mentioned to me how he was reading the bible, but when he mentioned to me that he has been talking with Jehova witnesses a concern has been aroused in me and i want all people to pray for me and him, his name is Antony, i am not sure how much he does or does not believe in their ideas although i pray and hope and think he has not yet rejected the church as that what makes someone not orthodox i think, and i feel that it was no accident in our meeting as i missed the bus and had trouble in getting money out of places so i was wondering around and i had my bible at the time, it was about 9.45 at night and i ended up walking with him to his friends and then he waited with me at the bus stop. I mentioned about councils and saints how they pray for us as we are in our states of our hearts not as able and through their prayers we can be helped if we are willing, and i said that any person who does worship icons as they and others are led to believe should not do so and that we as orthodox do not, we venerate and pray to saints through their icons kind of like we think of our loved ones when we see them in a picture but only in a small way, I want to ring him up as he gave me his number but he asked me if i wanted to discuss with him and a friend of his who is a jehova witness to look at the bibles, he was told they use the most ancient hebrew but then i told him that the church uses a version translated into greek from the ancient hebrew text and he said it should be the same even though i know that their translation is not, anyway i might be going on too much, father and all other members pray that i may see or speak to my spiritual father on this, so if i should go and talk with my friend with them of his friend and me and my friend then Gods will be done, i want to invite him to the English bible studies we have at our church and also take him up to the stavropegic Monastery of Saint John the Baptist to answer his questions but maybe that is pride on my behalf or too pushy but i can&#39;t help feel concern, again forgive me for my lack of expression
Pray for me, my friend, and those of you who do as is Gods will the whole of creation.
In Christ
Harry

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Harry,

Allow me please, to give a few pointers on this battle as I have been on that battlefield myself before. I must confess up front that I am not Orthodox in any official way but I know Orthodoxy well enough to know that it is true &#40;don&#39;t ask&#41;.

I give this knowing full well that I may be accused of presenting a purely logical conjectural
statement of the case and that really these things are &#34;too high for me.&#34; You and I could remain Hesychastically silent and wait for the Lord&#39;s light to dawn on your friend, but to my mind, &#40;yes Father Averky, my mind&#41; if you know a little about the rabbit trail &#40;as we call them here in some parts of the States&#41; that your friend has been wandering off in, you can re-direct him back to the right path.

Believe me, even Protestants know that JWism is not true, and if the heterodox can see that, think how clear it should be to the Orthodox. But allow me to help you avoid the pitfalls of someone lured by the promise of understanding God directly through the Bible. One in that condition can only be addressed from the point at which Holy Orthodox Tradition is handed down in Holy Scripture.

Thus, to begin with, let me suggest that as far as Holy Scripture goes, the JW&#39;s problem is primarily in the Gospel according to St. John.
You will of course probably not want to start by saying so outright. But you might want to start with something like, &#34;You know, the Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses were not founded by Jesus Christ.&#34;

He might point you to a passage in the Prophet Isaiah in which the term &#34;Jehovah&#39;s Witness&#34; is used. Ask him Who he thinks Jehovah &#40;YHVH&#41; is. He will undoubtedly say he thinks that&#39;s the Father. Point out to him that according to Jesus, He is Jehovah &#40;there are seven places in the Gospel according to St. John where Jesus refers to Himself as &#34;I AM&#34; which is what YHVH means&#41;.

Ask him if he knows why Jews are not allowed to speak God&#39;s name &#40;Jehovah, or if the truth be known, Yahweh&#41;. The answer should be that it is a &#34;hedge placed around the Law prohibiting use of the Lord&#39;s Name in vain, for the commandment is &#34;Thou shalt not use the name of the Lord in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who uses his name in vain.&#34;

Then ask him who he thinks Jesus is. The answer should be something along the lines that Jesus is the incarnation of the Archangel Michael &#40;One Who Is Like God -- the Hebrew &#34;Michah-Mocha&#34; is &#34;Who is liky you?&#34; [a query addressed to God, &#34;El&#34;&#41;

But Jesus is not like God, He is God, for such is the meaning of the first four verses of the Gospel According to St. John. Well, perhaps not exactly. You and he will find that it is O Logos &#40;and do not be satisfied with him using an English gloss term &#34;word&#34;, more on that later&#41;, he will be forced to admit that the original Greek says &#34;O Logos&#34;, and that it is this &#34;Logos&#34; that became &#34;infleshed&#34; or &#34;incarnate.&#34; It was O Logos incarnate that the Mother &#40;and her betrothed&#41; were instructed to name &#34;Jesus&#34; &#40;i.e., &#34;Saviour&#34;&#41;

If Antony has gotten close enough to the JW attraction, he may be using their own translation. It purposely mistranslates at least the first few verses in St. John&#39;s Gospel to read &#34;In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was a god.&#34; This is patently bad Greek. They begin with the premise that because there no indeffinite article &#40;&#39;a&#34; or &#34;an&#34;&#41; in Grk that failure to put the definite article &#40;e.g., &#34;the&#34;&#41; means the noun is indefinite, licensing them to put it in. This is not true, as any grammarian will tell you. There is a rule but I won&#39;t give it now.

The JW&#39;s have four criteria that a &#34;True God&#34; must fit. I don&#39;t remember them right now &#40;it&#39;s been a long time&#41; but one of them is that he must be understandable, and will tell you that if they cannot understand a concept about God, it cannot be true. If you get this from him you might just point out that we none of us can even understand ourselves, so how can anyone expect to understand our Creator, Healer, Saviour, Sanctifier? A circumscribed or &#34;bound&#34; God is no god at all.
Also, there are no other gods, which is the meaning of the first commandment. Therefore no so-called god in scripture is really a god; Jesus and Jehovah are both the Logos, and are in fact both the same, He is the Logos and Son of the Father who is God, and we don&#39;t have to be able to understand it for it to be true. Thus, to call Jehovah someone other than Jesus &#40;like &#34;the Father&#34;&#41; is to use His name in vain, wich is why Jews are called hypocrites in the New Testament.
&#40;I wouldn&#39;t say that last to a Jew, at least not at first&#41;.

Now of course you&#39;re right, they are extremley sensitive to what they call idolatry &#40;without recognizing it in themselves&#41;. I wouldn&#39;t bother too much with defense against iconoclasm, more immportant is who Jesus and Jehovah are &#40;the same&#41;, but, If he can&#39;t get off it, or needs an answer regarding the icond, you are right. Simply put, Icons are &#34;written&#34; not painted, and that means that they are words which are &#34;read&#34; by observation. Because they are pictures they put us in mind of the one pictured, and know one who ever fell asleep &#40;reposed&#41; in the Lord has ever tasted death. Therefore, Icons put us in touch with living saints who are no longer sinners as well, having truly put off the sinful flesh. This means that they are in perfect communion with God and in the light, and &#34;talking to them in God&#34; does not correspond to any of the Old Testament proscriptions regarding necromancy and dealings with the cthonic world of darkness. Orthodoxy is all about light, and not just imitation light but real light.

Ask him, finally if any of the JW&#39;s have direct access to God personally. Orthodoxy promises such an access, and no, it won&#39;t be contrary to Scripture.

We will all keep you both in prayer.

Yours,

Richard

P.s. Some of my terminology might well be protestant and ring unkindly on Orthodox ears. For that I apologize &#40;I&#39;m still learning the language&#41; but I&#39;d rather shout warning and redirection in pidgin English than wait until I have the queens English down while my friends all veer off the path! ITMT, practicing is perfecting! ---R

[Fr Averky]

Richard,
Your soul concerns me, not your mind. Your mind is quite clear.

Father Averky

[Fr Averky]

Richard,
thank you for your information on JW - I know nothing about them. Only recently, I must confess, have I begun to study some of Protestant thought and its various denominations. I made the trasition from Roman Catholicism when Vatican II had only been over for four years, so I went from one then ancient tradition to another one.

Archbishop Alypy, a bishop of our church and a student of the renowned Archimandrite Kyprian, who along with Photios Kontaglou really helped revive Byzantine iconography in the twentieth century, told me when I used the term &#34;written&#34; for icons, that this is a modern popular notion, and even while the Slavonic word is &#34;to write,&#34; like the Ukrainian Easter eggs, &#34;Pysanki,&#34; which also comes from &#34;to write,&#34; icons are in fact painted. While the idea of writing makes sense in that an icon is theology in color, still it is accomplished by dippong a brush into pigment and applying it to a prepared board. In this cae, it is not my opinion, but Archbishop Alypy&#39;s. Also, Mr. James L. Jackson, a well-know expert on ancient Russian icons says that he always emphasizes this point as well. I am not arguing with you here, it is that I have noticed the usage of the term &#34;writing&#34; icons only for twenty years or so. Still iconographers are referreed to as icon painteres, not icon writers. Most iconographers will tell you, &#34; I am painting an icon of St. George for such and such a church.&#34;

Father Averky

[Fr Averky]

Richard,
thank you for your information on JW - I know nothing about them. Only recently, I must confess, have I begun to study some of Protestant thought and its various denominations. I made the trasition from Roman Catholicism when Vatican II had only been over for four years, so I went from one then ancient tradition to another one.

Archbishop Alypy, a bishop of our church and a student of the renowned Archimandrite Kyprian, who along with Photios Kontaglou really helped revive Byzantine iconography in the twentieth century, told me when I used the term &#34;written&#34; for icons, that this is a modern popular notion, and even while the Slavonic word is &#34;to write,&#34; like the Ukrainian Easter eggs, &#34;Pysanki,&#34; which also comes from &#34;to write,&#34; icons are in fact painted. While the idea of writing makes sense in that an icon is theology in color, still it is accomplished by dippong a brush into pigment and applying it to a prepared board. In this cae, it is not my opinion, but Archbishop Alypy&#39;s. Also, Mr. James L. Jackson, a well-know expert on ancient Russian icons says that he always emphasizes this point as well. I am not arguing with you here, it is that I have noticed the usage of the term &#34;writing&#34; icons only for twenty years or so. Still iconographers are referreed to as icon painteres, not icon writers. Most iconographers will tell you, &#34; I am painting an icon of St. George for such and such a church.&#34;

Father Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father Averky,

Thank you for the update on icon presentation. Certainly one must do one&#39;s due dilegence so as to keep one&#39;s facts straight.

The questions the iconoclasts have for us are what is the reason for the production? And how is this not breaking the commandment against making images of the divine to give ultimate worship and adoration to.

The Fathers teach first of all that God is no longer invisible, that it was because He was invisible, i.e., pre-incarnate, that there was an injunction against attempts at picturing Him. And further that He is present in his saints. Therefor the pictures we make are not &#34;instead of&#34; God, but &#34;connections to&#34; Him. Is this not correct?

Most important of all is the fact that Jesus really is the incarnation of God, which JW&#39;s deny &#40;and which the Fathers assert iconoclasm ultimately denies&#41;.

Yours,

Richard

[Richard Leigh]

Fr. Averky,

Forgive me the comment that elicited voice to your genuine concern, and thank you for it.

Trust that while I cannot be a monk, I seek to become a &#34;theologian&#34; in the true &#40;i.e., Orthodox&#41; sense of the word, and that by prayer, meditation, and affliction in this world outside the monastery. Thus &#34;cure of the soul&#34; will come through purification, and illumination of the nous which in turn will correct the &#34;soulish&#34; energies of mind and spirit, if I understand Metropolitan HIEROTHEOS rightly.

Peace,

Richard

[Fr Averky]

Dear Richard,

One of the most simple and loveliest reasons given for the Orthodox veneration of holy icons is a statement from an unnamed Russian Orthodox priest at the end of the nineteenth century.

He said something like this: &#34;We Orthodox Christains have been given the possibility to venerate the holy icons because Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity became a Man, and thus we were able to look at Him with our eyes, touch Him with our hands, kiss Him with our lips.&#34;

Father Averky

[Richard Leigh]

Dear Father,

Yes, it&#39;s as you say, because of God&#39;s incarnation in Christ.

Richard

[Effie Ganatsios]

&#34;He said something like this: &#34;We Orthodox Christains have been given the possibility to venerate the holy icons because Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity became a Man, and thus we were able to look at Him with our eyes, touch Him with our hands, kiss Him with our lips.&#34;

What beautiful words,Father Averky.

I have a friend who paints icons and I was told that when working on an icon, the monk or layperson prays constantly. The prayer is somehow transferred to the icon.

Here in Greece we give new icons to our priest who places them in a special part of the church for 40 days. Only then can we take them home.

[Effie Ganatsios]

I also read somewhere that we don&#39;t worship the icon itself. It can be compared to a photograph of a loved one. We look at the photo and are reminded of the one we love. The icon per se is not what we worship but what it represents.

God is never depicted in an icon.

[Fr Averky]

Dear Effie,

Just a gentle word of clarification of one word, but it is important: we do not &#34;worship&#34; icons, but venerate them - worship is given only to God and no one else. God is depicted in an icon in the person of Christ.

I might have mentioned this once on another thread, but it it worth repeating. Theer is much theological thought to be found in icons; for example, The halo around Christ&#39;s head has nine lines, whiuch represen the nine ranks of holy angels. The Greek word O On,, means of course, &#34;I am that I am,&#34; or &#34;I am the existing,&#34; the words uttered by Jesus Christ in the appearance of the Burning Bush before which stood the holy prophet Moses. Even colors have spiritual significance; for example the classic icon of Christ shows Him wearing a blue robe on the outside and a deep purple garment on the inside. The Mother of God is shown wearing deep purple on the outside, while wearing a pale blue garment on the inside. The meaning of this is; The most expensive dye is the rare purple which comes from a shrimp found only near Hieropolis, the ancient city whose great bishop was Averkios, Egual to the Apostles. Of course, we know that only the emperor wore a cloak colored with such dye, and the patrician senators had a stripe of purple on their togas. Pale blue is derived from a very common source, indigo, and was the color most often used by the poorest people.

Thus, Christ wears blue on the outside, because he in His humility clothed himself in the poverty of mankind, while He is of royal blood and His inner garment is purple. The Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven, has beeen clothed in the royal purple because of her purity and as Mother of the King of All, while her inner garment is pale blue to denote her humble origin in that she is of mankind.

Effie and Richard, I just thought you might find this interesting. Richard, I think that you would find the treatise On the Divine Images by St. John Damascene very informative - it is the classic defense for the use of icons by the Church.

Father Averky

[Effie Ganatsios]

Thank you Father, I did find it interesting.

One of the things I had trouble with in our faith was the rich robes that priests wear. I used to think that they shouldn&#39;t be so &#34;rich&#34; and that a little simplicity wouldn&#39;t be amiss.

A few months ago I read an article that explained the various colours of the priest&#39;s garments, what they symbolized and on which occasions they were required to wear them. Knowing WHY something is the way it is makes all the difference although I still think a little less splendour and a bit more simplicity would be beneficial. I know that it is all to the glory of God but I think some priests go overboard..

[Chuck S.]

Not sure if this has been mentioned &#40;about the Jehova&#39;s Witnesses&#41; but I did a small amount of research on them as a protestant &#40;for purposes of &#39;defending&#39; my beliefs not because I was thinking of becoming JW&#41; and it seems to me, now after reading a bit about the Council&#39;s of the Church, JW&#39;s is practically the exact same thing as Arianism.

I could be wrong, but I think it is simply Arius&#39; teachings reborn 100 years ago. JW say Christ is the first created being, not equal with Father etc..just like Arius.
The JW have a few modern twists to it, but it seems to be one of Satan&#39;s oldest heresies repackaged.


I don&#39;t know if this is useful information at all, but I think it might be somewhat accurate at least.


In Christ, Thomas

[Fr Averky]

Dear Effie,

Many people who have grown up in modern Western democracies often have a &#34;problem&#34; with the richness of priestly vestments. If you will read the description in the Old testament which decribes how God wanted the robes of the priests who were to offer Him sacrifices, especially that of the High Priest, you wil find that they were not that &#34;simple.&#34; One part of the vestments of the High Priest was a breastpiece of solid gold with rare and precious stones.

Today&#39;s Orthodox vestments reflect the splendour of the Byzantine court, but the idea has always been that when standing before the &#34;Throne&#34; of God, which is the altar table, the priest must be attired properly. in the Russian Church, the parish buys the vestment, while in the Greek church, the priest usually buy their own, so their richness or simplicity has to do with how much they can afford.

All down the ages, and in every religion modern and ancient, special and rich attire has been worn by the officiants of services to god as a particular people knew him &#40; or them&#41; to be. In a reaction to the richness and excesses of the papal court and its other bishops, the Protestant reformers stressed simple liturgical attire, and now in America and othe countries many ministers wear busines suits, but these can be very expensive.

On the Holy Mountain, when there is an important feast, many of the monasteries bring out for their priest to wear magnificent Russsian vestments from the nineteenth Century. The Russian Church has always felt that the very best of everything should be used for the worship of God. The one time I visited Mt. Athos, I served with one of our priestmonks at the Skete of the Prophet Elias &#40; later our monks were expelled from the Holy Mountain by the present Patriarch of Constaninople&#41;.

My friend, who later died at the young age of fifty four said to me,&#34;Father, I brought out something special for you to wear during liturgy.&#34; With that, he gave me an epitrachilion made of solid silver, woven into the most beautiful floral pattern. It must have weighed almost thirty pounds, for I could hardly walk around the altar table when I censed. My friend told me later that this was but the last part of what had been an entire set of priest&#39;s vestments!

People can have huge homes, two cars, several televisions, go on expensive vacations, buy expensive clothes, send their children to good schools and indulge them in every whim and then turn aroud and complain that the priest are not &#34;simple&#34; enough. If they had to go through what the average priest does, they would see that beautiful vestments are but a small consolation. I am not at all talking about you, Effie, but this is all too often the case.

Father Averky

[cale]

At a Serbian Church I sometimes attend, the priests wear what I assume they regard as very beautiful and ornate vestments. When I first saw them, before I was a Christian, I thought they were really tacky and cheap as they were decorated with sequins made of that holographic stuff like the wrapping paper you can get, its made with lasers and relects the light into all the colors of the spectrum. I remember almost feeling sorry for these priests who thought they were wearing such beautiful garments, it was almost funny. I was wounded when I met them personaly, received their hospitality and got a glimpse of the beauty within such simple and sincere hearts. That was when I knew I had no choice but to convert, when I met these Serbian hieromonks.

Obviously these vestments were nothing compared to the Silver item Father Averky mentioned but they are still worn and cared for as though they are precious.

[Richard Leigh]

Hi Thomas,

Yes, you are exactly right. JW&#39;s are Arian to the extent that they believe, Jesus, the incarnate Logos, to be a creation of the Father.

This information is valuable because it is important to know that if Jesus is less than God, he cannot be &#34;savior&#34; since only God can save.

Richard

[George Hawkins]

As an aside to Fr Averky&#39;s post No. 225 &#40;and nothing to do with JWs etc&#41;, the verb kaku in Japanese means both write and draw, though in Japanese script there is a difference in how you write &#39;kaku&#39;. To be more precise you could say egaku to mean paint or draw a picture.
I had always just assumed that one writes an icon, as that is all I had ever heard.

[Fr Averky]

Dear George,

It just goes to show that if enough people keep repeating the same thing, then it in time it is perceived as being true. I suppose it might a bit of a technicality, but when a person will &#34;correct&#34; a person more expert on the subject than they, it is just a little annoying.

Father Averky

[Trinitarian God]

Afternoon,

I will have to agree on the Bin bit!

Learn more about unbroken chained Orthodoxy, before you seek other interpretations, but then you will be just wasting time seeking as you can use this time to learn about yourself and what teachings you will be following for your Salvation.

Glory be to the Trinitarian God
Now and Ever
and to the Ages of Ages
Amen