Orthodox perspective on dating

[sinjin smithe]

Please forgive me if I am posting this topic in the wrong forum. I was wondering if there are any good sources(such as the Holy Fathers, the Holy Bible) on dating from the Orthodox perspective. There is a lot of dating advice out there for Christians but all of it comes from the Protestant, evangelical point of view. If anyone can point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it.

[Owen Jones]

"Don't"

xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx

[sinjin smithe]

Okay Owen. Then how does one find a potential mate? They don't just fall out of sky and into one's lap.

[Owen Jones]

The manna did.

xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx

[sinjin smithe]

Had I gotten the response that I have received I would not have bothered posting this question in the first place.

[Moses Anthony]

Sinjin,

Think of dating as Lot lifting his eyes towards the plains of the Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere. The testimony of Scripture is "that righteous mans soul was afflicted..." by the conduct of the people of Sodom.

Having seen for sure, one complete diaster when someone would not wait for God to bring them a mate, I wouldn't encourage dating for anyone, Protestant or Orthodox, for the unspoken bottom line in dating is, working the system for someone that you hope later God will approve of as a mate for life.

Is there a difference in trusting God as a Protestant, or trusting God as an Orthodox?

Moses

[sinjin smithe]

James I would like to thank you for your response. I am not clear as to what you are saying. Do you mean that a young person like me should not date at all? Why? I know that I am to trust God that he will find a mate that is fitting for me. But the thing is how will I know who that mate is if I am not active and doing my part. In other words, I don't think that God will just suddenly one day dump someone into my lap and we will get married just like that. I am 23 and have not dated anyone yet, but the thing is I find myself at times lonely and longing for someone. What is a person my age to do? To sit and burn with passion? To fill void with other temptations such as pornography? I hope I am not coming across as to harsh in my response. Please forgive me if I am misinterpreting your statements James.

[sinjin smithe]

In addition, I find that in our modern era, a lot of people are saying to not date, yet my grandparents courted when they were younger. Why has society changed so dramatically? My suspicion is that radical feminism and the high divorce rate among many people have led to a pessimism between the sexes and this has carried over to dating.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

hi Sinjin,

i sympathise with you. i am somebody whom you've probably seen from my posts, that has played the dating game, girlfreind game, and gone with the trends of modern times. i can't say, that any of that lead me to a life time partner. i used to think, before becoming a more devout orthodox christian, that all these experiences with women where at least giving me insight and wisdom so that eventually i would be more capable of finding the right one, and being able to satisfy her needs. ironically, i don't think i have achieved any of that. i am still very confused about male, female relationships, often very cynical and still very lonely. which really calls to question not only the dating game, but also other forms of unwholesome premarital courting(these days many skip dating alltogether and just head straight for bed).

my conclusion thus far, therefore is, that whether you date regularly or not, this will not necessarily increase your chances of finding a partner. but that shouldn't mean that you don't have relationships with women within the christian context, based on of-course mutual respect and love for God and the gospel. i have recently found that i would rather go for a coffee with the girls at my church after the divine liturgy, and discuss religion and our concerns re the world, than take to a movie some girl whom doesn't have the same spiritual inclinations. and out of that if a relationship is born, i will surely know it was God's will. this of course extends to all of our Godly endeavours in life. God always leads us eventually out of the desert, to discover the treasures he has in store. we hope that included in the treasure will be a lifetime partner, if indeed it is our calling to live the married life.

God bless

Andonis

[sinjin smithe]

Andonis thanks for your insight. You are very fortunate to have a church were you can meet women your age. At my church, I am the only one my age(college age) and there are not women around my age to meet there. They are either too young or too old. It seems very hard today to meet a woman who is a devout Christian and has not had multiple sex partners. Right now I am pessimistic about finding someone but I am not in a hurry to get married. I just feel very lonely at times.

[Owen Jones]

The Jesus Prayer solves loneliness and erotic impulses. But to be effective in my case I have to have three or four serious sessions per week wherein I sit still and quiet and recite the prayer at least 500 times.

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

hi sinjin and owen,

owen thanks for your tip regarding the Jesus Prayer. i have started to recite it whenever i find my mind wandering into areas that it shouldn't and i have found it quite effective.
sinjin, its unfortunate there aren't more ladies your age attending church. have you ever thought about relocating to melbourne australia? (just a thought)

furthermore, i think there are other avenues by which God will provide you with a partner. it may be that you meet a woman whom isn't orthodox but whom will be open enough to listen to you about your faith and sincerely want to join you. that way not only will God provide you with the partner you want, but you will also be doing his will by helping save another soul. i have been amazed at how many women i have met, whom turned around after hearing what i have to say, with sincere empathy and interest. some of-course shunned me, and ridiculed me. but God seems to always to provide willing ears sooner or later, whereby your preaching of the gospel sounds like a therapeutic tune. these people are drawn and amongst them may be that special someone.

you are very right about the multiple sex partners. most women today have also been at the mercy of our corrupt modern society which fed them with sexual images from a young age. they grew up watching shows like FAMILY TIES, whereby a liberal minded family actually encourages their children to have multiple partners, even allows them to be promiscuous in their own homes as long as sex is practiced safely. my experience has been also that young woman appear to more easily become infatuated with images on television and billboards. i know that if you interupt my sister while she watches her soap opera's she'll bite your head off. in fact she finds it a personal insult when i comment on the rubbish that she watches. such is her passion for this falsehood.

to sum it up sinjin, i have no doubt that God will provide for you in due course.

God bless
andonis

[Andonis Saridopoulos]

by the way, is there any information on the net regarding orthodoxy and dating? i would love to find some specific material on this topic...

Andonis

[Stephen Keeler]

With four children, the oldest of whom is just old enough to begin dating, this topic is of considerable interest to me. The pressure is much greater on them than in my day to sleep around and otherwise let their hormones rule; however, there are young people out there wondering if they are the only ones who wish to lead a chaste life before and after marriage. They just need patience to find each other, and support from as many quarters as possible to maintain their goal.

[Thomas]

Dear friends,

Maybe the fact that someone cannot find an appropriate parter or partner-pool is a sign from God that patience in the whole realm of "dating" is what is required. Maybe we are far too eager to "date," to take part in the big social trend that we see going on around us. Maybe God would prefer that we simply wait and be faithful to him, until (or *if*) he chooses to provide us with a devoted husband or wife.

Thomas

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

Are there really no Orthodox dating agencies? I know of some RC ones, and churches can often be the best source of suitable company for this purpose for the serious of mind who don't find the disco "culture" the least bit congenial. Maybe a young respondent to this web site could also be a potential friend?

the seeker after wisdom

[Margaret Jackson-Roberts]

And one should not forget the celibacy option as a matter of active, positive, choice.

the seeker

[Thomas Garland]

I'm afraid I can't suggest any help from the Fathers, etc, as I subscribe to Monachos.net to learn from others!

But have the younger members who want to get to know others of the same age and interests thought of the world-wide Orthodox youth movement Syndesmos {www.syndesmos.org (http://www.syndesmos.org)}? (The website wasn't responding when I tried it a just now, but hopefully it will be back on line soon).

I fear that we oldies may have been a bit dismissive to Sinjin and Andonis, though I agree with Owen's comment some time ago that it's not 'seemly' to go into a lot of personal emotional turmoil on a public message board.

It seems a little facile to tell people to be patient and wait for God to provide, and perhaps we should examine this a bit more.

How does one tell when God is indeed providing for us and it is not just a rationalisation of our own wish-fulfilment? This applies whether our problem is one of loneliness or poverty, or whatever.

Many years ago, like Sinjin and Andonis, I was lonely and then finally found a lady who was willing to go out with me and then to marry me, and I was convinced it was the work of God, an answer to my prayer and patient waiting on His Will. But it rapidly turned out not to be the case - I had fooled myself into believing that what I wanted was the Will of God.

Many non-Christians, particularly 'smart' humanists, will say Christians are 'finding comfort' in their religion if they turn to God in times of trouble and that, when there is an apparent answer to prayer, we are ascribing to God an actually random turn of the wheel of fate, simply because that's what we want to believe.

And most modern counselling or psychotherapy is based on the premise that we can't change what is happening around us and to us, we can only change our perceptions of what is happening. Isn't this, the humanist will argue, just what Christians are saying when they ascribe everything to God's will and 'worship in silence His inscrutable ways'?

I could tell our young friends that sometimes I find it useful, if I feel unloved or a good friend hasn't been in touch with me, to think that that God is giving me an experience of how He feels when we don't love and ignore Him, so we should glorify Him for giving us this privilege of feeling as He does. But isn't this just the sort of rationalisation I've described above? Note that I used the word 'useful'!

I'm sorry if this isn't very useful to Sinjin & Andonis, but, even at 54, I'm still searching myself! Perhaps some more knowledgeable member will be able to help us.

with love,

Thomas
(A different one from the one who posted here a little while ago! Can I be the sub-Thomas or is that pride in humility?).

[Thomas Garland]

Perhaps I should have added to my note about Syndesmos that both the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (http://www.goarch.org) and the OCA (http://www.oca.org) websites have substantial resources for their Youth/Young Adult ministries that may have items of use re dating.

I hope Sinjin & Andonis don't feel it's patronising to be lumped in with the 'Youth' - this isn't intended! I think organisations like Syndesmos & OCF, etc, cater for people in their 20's as well as teenagers.

with love,

Thomas

[Elizabeth Riggs]

As a 60 year old grandmother, may I add something to this thread?

I am puzzled by what you mean by "dating." If you mean going out as a duo to secular places with a person you have only recently met, this probably is not very helpful in maintaining the kind of life you seem to be seeking.

Rather than that, you might consider bringing any young ladies you meet and believe you might have common interests to Church with you. Bring her to Church activities - dinners, workdays, etc. If she is truly the person God intends for you, then she will "stick." If not, she won't be interested in going with you again.

Christian "dating" is most effective when the couple are not alone for any length of time. They are in a larger group of people with whom they are interacting as well as interacting with (talking to) each other. This provides safety and chaperonage for the incipient relationship. It also provides ample opportunity to see how the other person treats other people. Family outings are also appropriate.

If you find you and she are interested in each other, then is the time to talk about the kind of "courting" you wish to do. Actively set the ground rules - not being alone together, abstaining from inappropriate intimacy, getting to know each other well enough to make an educated decision about marriage, getting to know each others' families.

Orthodox Christian courtship should be undertaken with the blessing and advice of your priest, and should actively involve Parish activities. If you are courting a young lady who is not Orthodox, she needs to understand from the beginning that you cannot marry anyone who is not Orthodox. If she is unwilling or unable to convert, no matter how much you care for/about her, you must terminate your association with her. You may be able to remain friends, but you must resign yourself to the *fact* that you cannot marry her.

If there are no young ladies available in your Parish, you should look for Orthodox youth organizations and meetings - even if it means traveling a bit. In the USA, the annual St. Herman's Conference held over Dec 11 - 13 (24 - 26) is a good place to meet Orthodox people. There are summer camps and choir conferences, also, which provide additional opportunity to meet other Orthodox people. As you seem to be in Australia, you will need to seek similar opportunities there.

Wishing you the best,
In Christ,
Elizabeth


These are just a few of the "rules" that are appropriate for Orthodox young people seeking a spouse.

[sinjin smithe]

Thomas Garland you discussed something that I have pondered many times in my life before. I believed I posted something about this in another thread where I asked how do we discern the will of God in our lives. I would like to add to that God has never promised me a wife so how do people know that God will provide someone for me for sure?

Many years ago, like Sinjin and Andonis, I was lonely and then finally found a lady who was willing to go out with me and then to marry me, and I was convinced it was the work of God, an answer to my prayer and patient waiting on His Will. But it rapidly turned out not to be the case - I had fooled myself into believing that what I wanted was the Will of God.

Thomas how did you realized that you fooled yourself?

Elizabeth, did you gain this insight from life experience or from other sources? Also, the area(more like the state) I live in has very few Orthodox christians. Which means that those who are Orthodox are either older, too young, or married. In other words, there are no young Orthodox women that are in my area. So if I want to meet and date women, they all are non-Orthodox, some are devout Christians. You suggested that I should only date Orthodox women. I have given up hope of marrying a women who is Orthodox in the US because there are so very few. Many cradle Orthodox usually marry someone from outside the faith. That is just the way it is here in the United States. In fact, I have a better chance of winning the lottery than finding a woman who is a devout Orthodox christian. You suggested that I travel a bit..that is difficult when one goes to college and has not a lot of money to begin with. Please understand that I am not criticising your advice, I just merely am explaining my situation.

Another thing that I want to comment on is that I feel there is nothing wrong with bringing up a topic like this on a public discussion board. A couple others have expressed interest on this topic and would like to know some advice. It seems that whenever a question is posed like this the answers seem to be too dismissive to the concerns expressed. All the information about relationships comes from the modern non-Christian society, and when one looks for advice from their church there really is none other than "don't date" or "date only Orthodox christians" or "want for God to provide and just be patient" (I am not bashing or criticising anyone here, just generalizing responses that I have gotten from others that I have sought advice from in my life). Perhaps that is why Andonis and I are confused about relationships, and seeking some advice because the Orthodox church has so little advice on this. Sure the church has advice on celibacy but what about those who have a desire in their heart to be with someone of the opposite sex for friendship and intimacy? It seems like it is a bad thing for someone my age to want to date and be in relationships...that it is wrong to court women....that one should instead wait for God to drop someone into their lap. But what does one do? Repulse these desires yet still burn with desire? Celibacy and monasticism is not for everyone just like the priesthood is not for everyone.(Please understand that I am not saying to have sex before marriage, this is wrong, and something that I will never do). The church has little to offer young people in terms of advice and dating so instead we are forced to fend for ourselves by listening to the worldly advice. I wish the church would have something for young people about this instead of poo-pooing it and deeming it a negative thing.

[Owen Jones]

I honestly do not think there is any right or absolute answer to this question. To misquote Flannery O'Connor, a good woman is hard to find. If you are in college, there should be places to meet women who are not into partying and drugs, etc. Perhaps through some extra-curricular activity.

Not all good women are part of some Christian group either. A lot of Christian groups can be a turnoff. I don't think a "mixed" marriage is a disaster. St. Paul said that we can be sanctified by marriage. But obviously before one marries, one presumably has a discussion about God, faith, etc. Typically, women have profound spiritual awakenings for the first time when they have children. So I think it's more important just to try to find a good person. A lot of people who are Christian can have a myriad of personal, psychological, moral problems that are papered over by an outward religiosity.

If you do not express an interest in pre-marital sex, that will weed out a lot of girls right there who just think you are weird.

The best way to attract a woman is to simply pay attention and listen to her. Of course, the same thing works in reverse. We usually want to speak our minds and then see how the other person responds. But it's good to get into the practice of listening and paying attention to the other person. Try being polite and gracious in little things. If someone is receptive to that, it perhaps means that she has some grace and self-respect.

[sinjin smithe]

Owen I agree 100% with your misquote. A good woman in this day and age is very hard to find. I agree with you also that Christian groups are not always the best ways to meet a potential mate. From my limited experience with Christian groups in my college career you can meet some women who are playing a couple cards short of a full deck.

[Thomas Garland]

Dear Sinjin,

As ever, it's always easiest to be wise after the event! I think when you look back on something long after the event, when all the original feelings have subsided, you can analyse the way you acted. In my case, I could see, once the marriage had failed, that I rushed into marriage not because the lady concerned was the right person for me but because I was lonely and she was the first woman to come along - which wasn't very fair on her, quite apart from me!

It's very difficult to say 'no' to something you've longed for, and human psychology is such that we will find any justification for our actions in such circumstances, including invoking the Will of God.

So perhaps the only advice I can add to the excellent counsels of Elizabeth and Owen is not to get carried away with the first flush of mutual liking, but, as Owen says, to listen and pay attention and, if necessary, accept that this person is going to be a friend, not a wife, however you may desperately want to think otherwise.

Incidentally, I think we tend to assume that 'loneliness' always implies sexual loneliness, particularly for men, who are supposed to be incorrigibly ravening sexual beasts! But in reality, I think men as well as women want the companionship of the opposite sex as much as, if not more than, the physical relationship.

I mentioned the GOARCH and OCA websites in my earlier posts. I haven't had time to look at the sections properly, but both have resources aimed at church members working with young people, with suggested reading matter that you may find useful. I think the OCA's 'The Hub' pages seemed to have a possibly useful, Bible-based piece on relationships for young people that may help to answer your original question about advice on relationships in the Bible.

with love,

Thomas

[Elizabeth Riggs]

Dear In-Christ Sinjin,

My early experiences were not Orthodox, as my husband and I did not not convert until we were in our 30's. HOWEVER, a lifetime of observing, discussing, and counseling (I'm a nurse) others has led me to see some things.

You are young and along with your youth are the natural desires for a wife and family. God has given us these desires, but as with all gifts from Him, we humans tend to mis-use or misinterpret them.

Since you are young and unattached, you have the freedom to move to other areas of the US. There are many areas in which there are *many* Orthodox Christians. There are meetings and conferences at which you can meet Orthodox people. I strongly encourage you to use your freedom to move about and see other places, to meet new people.

Check out your "jursidiction" on the web, locate a fairly large parish and just move there. Go to a seminary - there are devout Orthodox women who take courses at most Orthodox seminaries with the express intention of meeting a devout Orthodox man. There are seminaries in New York, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts that I know of, and probably others I don't know of.

Again, search the web for young adult organizations in your "jurisdiction" or another compatible "jurisdiction." Check out colleges for Orthodox student groups. There are *numerous* places to meet a compatible Orthodox woman.

In the meantime, you can use the time to study the things that go into a **good** marriage. Read the Church Fathers' comments on marriage. There are several good modern books about Orthodox marriage - read them.

Continue to develop your career.

And last, but not least, become more and more immersed in living an Orthodox lift - follow the fasts, read the daily Bible readings, pray, take part in the feasts. Attend Church regularly and prepare for and receive the Holy Gifts frequently. All of these things will help you in the long run.

With Love in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Moses Anthony]

Sinjin;

I haven't checked my e-mail for two days; but, from the looks of my inbox you've gotten a lot of answers to your query about dating.

What was I saying in my post:

1.Dating has inherent pitfalls, not the least of which is emotional attachments which if broken will leave scars.

2.Should you or anyone rush (or enter) into dating for the sole purpose of finding a "mate", it's very possible that some of those encountered will destroy you spiritually. The complete wreck I referred to was a young lady who wanted the Lord to get her a man. When God didn't send one, she went out and found one on her own. She dropped out of college, and the last time I ever saw her she was walking through the university art building stoned.

3.The majority of young/old people entering the dating scene, do so without the slightest thought of submitting their love life to the lordship of Jesus Christ, but want Hm to bless their fleshly efforts.

4.As a Christian my first date was at the age of 23, with a young lady I met at a Christian coffeehouse. I definitely wanted someone who shared my values. As my late Mom once said, "you'll meet some nice girls at church".

5.Striking out on your own you are liable to encounter someone who will lead you into situations described in #'s 1,2 or 3. I met my wife at the home of a fellow Sunday School class member. It was a get-together regularly hosted by this class members parents for the young people. While everyone else was in another room, I decided to talk to this young lady who was sitting by herself. As they say the rest is history.

Now, does any of this mean that every dating experience is wrought with bad experiences, and that a lasting "holy" shared life cannot come from dating, NO. As most single people understand and practice dating, it has the pitfalls mentioned above.

Between the time I prayed for a wife, and when I actually met the woman I'm married to, there was an interval of about three years. In that time I had one real date from all the Christian 'girls' I'd met.

Again, God leads each of us differently, threfore this is no more than hopefully 'sage' advice, as there are no hard and fast rules. I'd recommend the book (although Protestant) I Kissed Dating Goodbye, by Josh Harris. You may find valuable insights which would be of a help to you. ABOVE ALL, "PRAY WITHOUT CEASING".

the unworthy servant

[Katerina]

Something is missing in this discussion, I just realized it had not been discussed. When looking for a mate you should understand what the Orthodox perspective on Marriage is: and that is someone who can help you save your soul (and vice versa). You may also want to read some of Fr. John Mack's stuff on marriage. I heard him talk once...he is *very* good.

In Christian Love,

Katerina

[Andonis]

hello all,

i have really been enjoying reading all your incredibly insightful posts. you all are amazing people with great spiritual gifts.

i know myself that i recently went through a dramatic change in my personal life. i split up with my girlfreind of aproximately a year. i remember posting here, and expressing with great clarity and conviction why i wanted to break it off with her. funnily enough, now that we have seperated the reasons that made me decide are still very strong, but the loneliness at times is agonising. the temptation to ring her, and see her is often overwhelming. but i resist it because i know that it stems mainly from my change of life and not really the desire to be with her. i discovered early on in the relationship that we were not meant for eachother, but as many people do you get used to filling in the void space, rather than making the break and seeing what else God has in store.

i guess all i'm trying to say, is that the loneliness is a big factor as to why people rush into things, when seeking a partner. i know i often have done this, and it has never worked out. i just pray God gives me the strength to be patient and this time seek and find the right person.

God bless
Andonis

[Owen Jones]

Loneliness is a key aspect of spiritual struggle and development. If we are to take the Bible seriously, loneliness was the most intense feeling experienced by the prophets and by our Lord. It is only out of extremely painful feelings of loneliness that we can experience true spiritual knowledge. So thank God for your feelings of loneliness.

[Andonis]

thank you very much for confirming this Owen. if it goes hand in hand with the ascetic struggle, then i am happy to endure any amount of loneliness.

[Moses Anthony]

Sinjin,

You wrote, "...so how do people know God will provide someone...."? Prayer, above all else, is communication. The Psalmist wrote, "Pour out your heart to God, for He cares for you". To paraphrase the Apostle in Phil. 3:10, press on that you may become even more intimately related with Him, so that as you pour out your heart, you become more and more intimately accquainted with His voice, and the myriad of ways in which He communicates with you.

Sounds like the ascetic struggle, doesn't it?

the unworthy servant