Depression

[Moses Anthony]

Matthew
In a recent post, someone pointed out to Pamelia, the web page WWW.CCEL. I've used them to make copies of some of St. John Chrysostom's homilies. Who among the Fathers listed on this site have written about depression, and under what sub-topic (if any) is the work on depression listed?
Thanks for your help!

the unworthy servant

[Gregory Myron]

Dear James, I'm not able to answer your question about resources on depression in the library of the fathers. But I was looking through a website that someone mentioned in another post in these boards, and I found some articles that might interest you:

http://www.joyinsorrow.com/articledespondency.html

http://www.joyinsorrow.com/articledispair.html

http://www.joyinsorrow.com/articlecomfort.html

I haven't read these in detail yet, but their titles look like things that might be of interest for you, based on your post.

-- Gregory

[Moses Anthony]

Gregory
The articles on the web-site you informed me about, are of a help to me. Thank you.

[sinjin smithe]

I was wondering if there is anything that deals with loneliness for young people similar to what has been listed here.

[David Galloway]

To the links already listed I would add Therapia Psychotherapy Services (http://www.therapia.org/) it is a listing of Orthodox counselors and information on psychotherapy as it applies to Orthodox Christians. Here is a quote:

At Therapía, we seek to cultivate both psychological and spiritual health, drawing on the vast resources of the Eastern Orthodox Faith tradition, which is now preparing to enter the third millennium. We are prepared to share these resources with those who wish to avail themselves of them. Therapía Psychotherapy Services has been given the blessing of Metropolitan Theodosius of the OCA, Metropolitan Nicholas of The Carpatho-Russian Diocese, and has in the past received the blessing of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese.

Please forgive me if the formatting for the link and the italics is not correct as this is my first post.

Sinjin, I haven't found any specific Orthodox sities dealing with that subject, but if you find any resources I would appreciate you posting them. This is also a subject of interest for myself, but I guess I am nearing the cutoff point of being considered young(23).

[Hermit]

Ancient writers usually referred to depression as sadness, sometimes more positively as the "gift of tears" , so a search for those terms should work nicely.

[Owen Jones]

I tend to equate the 8th deadly sin, acedia, with depression -- the demon of the noonday. The gift of tears is something quite different altogether.

[Aphrodite Marinis]

Owen, could you explain? I would also agree that the gift of tears is something completely different to depression. However, I would be interested for you to explain why depression is equal to the 8th deadly sin.

[Moses Anthony]

Owen, I join Aphrodite and you in that I don't believe that the "gift of tears" can translate into deprssion. I further disagree with the thought put forth that depression is the cause of various sins. No one knows the exact cause of this illness, although most would agree that it can be triggered by chemical imbalances in the brain. I see depression as an intense focus upon "self", which is a complete denial of the shared life we have in Christ Jesus.
Could you please explain what you have called
the "eight deadly sin"?

the unworthy servant

[Owen Jones]

When Evagrius Ponticus travelled into the desert to learn of the ways of the desert monks he discovered that they had identified eight deadly sins, the eighth being acedia or the demon of the noonday. This was what produced physical and mental lethargy. Now, appropro your comment, there is no doubt some organic aspect to this which they did not know about. Today we know all about highs and lows of blood sugar levels during the day, and this would come during one of those obvious low points to biochemists today. However, the desert monks were nothing if not the best of psychologists and they knew that something else was going on here. This despondency could lead to terrible thoughts that had to be fought off.

Now, another observor of monastic psychology, John Cassian, followed in Evagrius' footsteps, but somehow the sin of acedia that had developed in the Greek tradition was dropped off in his writings, thus giving the Latin West seven deadly sins.

Most depression is indeed the result of some form of self-centeredness. The fact that there is a biochemical component does not change the moral aspect of it. Some people have a propensity toward depression whereas some others have a more naturally light nature. So? All that means is that someone with a propensity for a sin must learn about it and work on it all the more. I may have a propensity to want to have sex with members of my same sex. There may be a biological aspect to that. But that does not change my moral responsibility to change my nature and to resist such temptations and the Church used to say, and it used to teach the practical means, for undergoing that sort of profound change. Now all it says is either "don't" (traditionalists) or "do it because God loves you anyway (modernists).

The ancients of course believed there were specific demons who attacked as on these specific accounts and developed a finely tuned repertoire of effective defenses against demonic infiltration, which we would do well to restore to today's Church teachings and our personal practices.

Their teaching on depression being one of the more important for us I should think.

[The Rev. Br. Francis Andrew Phillips, BSG]

This is my first try at posting on the list, and I am not sure I have = done so correctly. I am rather uninitiated about such things, so please = forgive any ineptitude. I did my best to follow the instructions and, if I = goofed, I would welcome some tutoring. =20 Owen Jones wrote: =20 " Most depression is indeed the result of some form of = self-centeredness. The fact that there is a biochemical component does not change the = moral aspect of it. Some people have a propensity toward depression whereas = some others have a more naturally light nature. So? All that means is that someone with a propensity for a sin must learn about it and work on it = all the more. "=20

I would like to ask if this is based upon a formal study of = psychiatry or psychology? With respect, I sense that it might be off the cuff and unintentionally lacking in charity to the point that it could cause = distress to anyone reading it who may have struggled with depression from = outside the presumed category of "Most" cited in the first line. Might it be = advisable to be a little more careful, and less sweeping in such statements?=20

I heartily concur that the Fathers were profound in their grasp of = human psychology in relation to spiritual praxis, but they were also able to = apply it in ways that took into account the individual -- and I am guessing = that they had the discernment to differentiate between a bad case of self-centeredness and mental illness resulting from other causes.=20

[Owen Jones]

The most charitable thing you can do for a depressed person is tell the truth -- with a loving manner. It helps though to have someone who has personal experience with this problem to witness to another person -- so they have a success story to share, like one of the above posts.

I am skeptical of most of the claims of clinical psychology and pharmacology in treating most depressed people. I see the miraculous happening daily when depression is treated with prayer and love and hope by others who are still suffering or have been suffering and are practicing spiritual principles.

A lot of what causes depression goes away in time, so a simple virtue like learning patience is a key element in treating depression.

[sinjin smithe]

Owen, may I ask a question. Have you had formal training in pyschology? I was just curious.

Owen said: But that does not change my moral responsibility to change my nature and to resist such temptations and the Church used to say, and it used to teach the practical means, for undergoing that sort of profound change. Now all it says is either "don't" (traditionalists) or "do it because God loves you anyway (modernists).

What do you mean by the practical means? I guess the best way to combat depression is to read the Desert Fathers perhaps?

I was doing some reading on the saints and I found a statement on depression from St. Maria of Gatchina:

"Depression is a spiritual cross," she told him; "it is sent to help the penitents who do not know how to repent, that is, who after repentance fall again into their earlier sins... And so only two medicines can treat this sometimes very difficult suffering of soul. One must either learn to repent and offer the fruits of repentance; or else bear this spiritual cross, one's depression, with humility, meekness, patience and great gratitude to the Lord, remembering that the bearing of this cross is accounted by the Lord as the fruit of repentance... And after all, what great consolation it is to realize that your discouragement is the unacknowledged fruit of repentance, an unconscious self-chastisement for the absence of the fruits that are demanded... From this thought one should come to contrition, and then the depression gradually melts and the true fruits of repentance will be conceived..."

I don't know if this quote exactly pertains to what has been said about depression, that it is the result of self-centeredness. I have a difficult time accepting that it is the result of that.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Francis (I don't know your proper title),

I you want to look up a respected clinician's opinions on this topic I would refer you to Dr. Peter Breggin. He has a web site. He is author of the book, TALKING BACK TO PROZAC. He believes too many people are medicated for depression, that psychiatry is into too many coercive tactics, and that the best treatment for depression is a combination of love and discipline (moral structure).

My own knowledge comes from 16 years in AA. No group of people has more ongoing problems with depression, and no organization has ever been more successful in helping people to overcome depression, with a combination of love, moral discipline, spiritual fellowship, and sardonic humor.

[Owen Jones]

Dear Sinjin,

the quote from St. Maria says it much better than I could. As for the practical issue. One can read the desert fathers just as one can read the Bible. But do we actually do the things that it says to do? And must we do them in isolation or is it possible to find others on the same path? Daily spiritual exercises are one of the keys to overcoming depression or any other deformed state of the soul.

But I try to avoid absolute statements. I never said ALL depression. But to give you some specifics: most alcoholics and addicts today are treated clinically by drugs, with a primary diagnosis of either manic/depression (now re-named bipolar disorder), or ADD, or some other type of clinical pathology, when in fact these are all symptoms of their primary disorder which is extreme self-centeredness. This extreme self-centeredness is evidenced in extreme emotional immaturity, denial (prelest), anger, paranoia and fear, hostility, bitterness and resentments. All of these are moral in nature, with the alcohol abuse being a symptom (albeit with a definite biochemical component -- we cannot split the two anymore than we can split the heart and mind from a person). Once a chronic abuser of alcohol or drugs puts down the chemicals, all of these pathologies are still there. By treating them with drugs the clinical industry is missing the point. This is true in all but about 5% of the cases of people who are treated for addiction who have a true mental illness apart from their addiction. But even those with a kind of pathogenic mental illness improve when given love and disciplined moral structure in regular doses, and some find that over time they can do without drugs and psychotherapy.

I know this from being a trustee of one of America's oldest and most respected drug and alcohol treatment centers, and being an AA member for 16 years.

Now, I'm not arguing that all depression is drug and alcohol related. I think many people in our society suffer from a kind of ongoing low grade depression, or they go through serious bouts of depression because of a loss of some kind or other. But I think the principles I have outlined still apply in those cases. There is typically (not ABSOLUTELY but typically), an underlying moral and spiritual problem which is rarely looked at by clinicians.

The most common non-clinical way that Americans deal with depression is through diversions (entertainment), or by getting involved in the human potential movement (Dr. Phil for example). While I think these are bogus paths, they actually do make people feel a lot better about themselves, which tends, I think, to put into question much of the clinical industry's views on depression.

[sinjin smithe]

I guess one can say then that most psychological(addictions/depression) problems are spiritual and require treatment of the soul in order to be successful. I can't remember where I heard this but someone once said that addictions are merely people trying to fill their God-shaped vacuums.

This also brings up an interesting point. That is, everything is interrelated to each other. By that I mean the body/mind/soul don't work independently of each other as many people in the west like to think of them as. A problem in the mind can effect one spiritual and vice versa. One can treat a problem in the mind(depression) spiritually.

[Moses Anthony]

Sinjin,

One of the things about he Church Fathers and saints is, not all agree with everything they say, which I say to say that I do not agree with the quote from St. Maria of Gatchina. I dare say that the physical ailment Paul suffered, was a problem he endured, rather than a cross he suffered. My uneducated guess, is that a cross is more intensely personal than a physical infirmity.

Job was extremely rich for his time; however he not only lost all his possessions, but also all his children(to be childless carried its own stigma). It wasn't until the misguided attempts of the four counselors, that we read in the Scriptures of Job's thoughts turning inward. And the Divine response, "...have you seen the treasuries of the snow...", put things in the proper for Job. There are things far greater than any illness I may suffer.
I work as a Corrections Officer(prison guard for the laymen). Every day medical personnel hand deliver to at least half the inmate population some type of psychotropic drug. Sometimes when I have to escort them to an appointment, they do all they can to get put back on their favorite drug, because the other "just ain't doing nothing for me". I am suspicious of medication for depression!

You are correct to say that, all of man is inter-related. After all, we are created (in the image and likeness of God) body, soul and spirit and whenever that balance isn't correct, problems ensue. I don't remember who it was I was reading recently, but they pointed out that because of salvation the tripate man could now be re-united. My immediate thought was, YESS!

As the Apostle wrote, love covers a multitude of sins.

the unworthy servant

[M.C. Steenberg]

(I inadvertently posted only the first portion of this message a moment ago. What follows is the entire post.)

Dear all,

Depression, as a mental state of mind, can certainly be (and often is) a state of abnormal focus upon one's self. Having worked with many depressive people, though, I would not say that depression is always a state of self-centredness. It is always endemic of the self, but not always centred upon the self.

But even in saying something like the above, it is all to easy to read into such words the idea that 'depressed people are just too focused upon themselves'. This might well be true, if depression were simply a mental condition. But it has already been mentioned in this thread that the human person is tripartite: body, mind and soul; and it is the resounding teaching of the Church that the body and the soul of the human person are intimately and inseparably woven together. We are keen to recognise this in its application to spiritual growth (e.g. we readily admit that ascesis of the body can improve the health of the soul, and that illumination of the spirit can heal the physical ailments of the body); but we are rather too quick to forget that this connection also works in the opposite direction. Illnesses or conditions that are 'mental' are not always only mental. The fallen state of humankind is not just a state of fallen will, for that would require that the will (the mind/soul) be wholly distinct from the body. In reality they are connected -- the soul affects the body, and conditions of the former can become conditions of the latter. There is a strong interrelationship between them.

To this end, the notion that such things as depression (in certain forms) can indeed be diseases, or genuine ailments of the human body and mind together, must not be dismissed based on the pure principle that to be depressed is to be willed upon the self in a particular, unhealthy way. While this always remains true, it is nonetheless a condition of fallen humanity (that is, fallen mind, soul and body) that the entrance into such a condition is not always required to be a deliberate act of the will. The body, which in all of us is fallen and sinful, has its part to play.

This means, I would venture to say, that the contemporary scientific/medical understanding of certain forms of bipolar disorder and clinical depression are not by definition at odds with the Church's own teaching on the ailments of the body and soul. When the Fathers speak of 'depression' as a gift that leads towards repentance, we must remember that this term can be used many ways. There is a holy depression; there is also an unholy despondancy. The Fathers rarely speak 'globally' when it comes to particular human ailments, and it is important that we take in context their comments on such things.

One should not conclude from this that the modern tendency towards 'medicating away' all signs of depression is a proper one. It is just as flawed as the notion that depressed people should just stop being so self-centred. The latter view believes the mind can be treated apart from the body; the former believes the body can be healed apart from the mind. The Church knows neither idea to be true. But there is a value to advances in medicinal treatment for various depressive conditions - so long as they aim to treat the physical in support of and in concert with the mental and spiritual, and not simply do away with the mental as something that is wholly a physical reaction. The body is not the soul and the soul is not the body; but in this life neither exists without the other. Both are to be healed if the human person is to be whole -- and this healing takes on different forms for different people.

INXC, Matthew

[M.C. Steenberg]

Carrying on with themes similar to those of my last post, I would point readers towards one of Owen's recent posts in a thread in another topic area, which is very much in the same theme.

INXC, Matthew